Watcher in the Dark (what are they?)

[Ghost Maker]

Hey. well i have been seeing alot of fluff about the Watchers in the Dark. especially in the dark angels codex can someone tell me what they are. i know one of them is Chapter Master Azreal's helmet berer that holds the lion helm A.K.A the small robed guy. can anyone tell me what they are Thx :bandit:

[TheWatcher]

Me :)

They're odd, small and strange little umpa-lumpa wannabe critters who seem to follow the Dark Angels around for one reason or another. That's all I know.

[Brother Kain]

Jawas LOL ;)

[Paranoia833]

Hey. well i have been seeing alot of fluff about the Watchers in the Dark. especially in the dark angels codex can someone tell me what they are. i know one of them is Chapter Master Azreal's helmet berer that holds the lion helm A.K.A the small robed guy. can anyone tell me what they are Thx :bandit:

They're mysterious shadowy creatures that appear to have been native to Caliban, and follow the dark angels around. Apart from that nothing is known and personally I doubt Games Workshop will ever explain it.

The 40K universe is full of unsolved mysteries, most of which stay that way, except for a few which are expanded upon whenever GW need to introduce new products to raise profit margins.

[BlackTemplar]

Wow, the Dark Angels sound really freakin' cool. I didn't know they were so sweet. Hmm, maybe a break from the Templars is in order....

[Deathwing]

I do not exactly know, but these littel guys also guard the deepest cells and holy chambers within the Rock.
If I'm not mistaken, they also guard a very special chamber:

The chamber, where the body of Lion El' Jonson is kept.

But don't tell anyone. It's a secret, which only members of the inner circle know.

But for I'm not too sure about that, I'll check my Codex and give an Edit to this post.

EDIT:
Checked my Codex and the Index Astartes. There is only little information about this. It is said, that after the Dark Angels stopped bombing Caliban, they landed and went deep into the fortress. There, they found Luthor, who had gone insane. He was babbeling something about the watchers and that they had taken the body of Jonson with them. The Dark Angels who found Luthor formed the inner circle after this.
So it is not quite clear if the inner circle knows where Jonson is.

[NjalStormcall]

Its been said that they are Warp-entities, so some sort of neutral daemon?

[Paranoia833]

I do not exactly know, but these littel guys also guard the deepest cells and holy chambers within the Rock.
If I'm not mistaken, they also guard a very special chamber:

The chamber, where the body of Lion El' Johnson is kept.

But don't tell anyone. It's a secret, which only members of the inner circle know.

But for I'm not too sure about that, I'll check my Codex and give an Edit to this post.

Actually not even the inner circle know about that. They only know about Luthor's cell.

[Cailet]

And they don't know where that is either. Is it me or are the DA really bad at basic security?

[mpjesse363]

the da are heritics cypher is the true good dark angel and the da hunt the fallen because the fallen know too much dirt on the unforgiven ones

[Chaos Lord]

The DAs 'secret' isnt as secret as it should be seeing as almost every one who plays 40k knows it... and why would they want to cover the fact that a load of them turned to chaos? surly they would use it as a warning to other chapters? : "even a loyal chapter can have traitors amoungst them!"

[FeloniousPunk]

The DAs 'secret' isnt as secret as it should be seeing as almost every one who plays 40k knows it... and why would they want to cover the fact that a load of them turned to chaos? surly they would use it as a warning to other chapters? : "even a loyal chapter can have traitors amoungst them!"

What players know and what characters and factions in the fluff know are two different things. It's a secret inside the world of fluff, and it's there to spice up the DA backstory. It doesn't matter that the secret is there for any player to know simply by reading the Codex.

The DAs hide this from everyone else because it's a different matter for a Space Marine chapter to have traitors amongst them than it is for organizations made up of normal humans. When SMs go traitor it's more than just a few bad apples being deviant; it is cause to question the gene seed of the chapter itself. A chapter with traitors risks exterminatus, reason enough for the DAs to hide knowledge of the Fallen Angels.

[NjalStormcall]

And they don't know where that is either. Is it me or are the DA really bad at basic security?

Well, it is The Rock, with large parts of it fused inside without any entrances. The Watchers may dwell in one of this crevices; and no, typical logic does not get to be applied when dealing with warp entities.

[TheWatcher]

Yes, the entire Chapter would have denounced as being weak/having weak geneseed.

Then the next thing Azrael and the lads know the Grey Knights turn up at the Rock uninvited...and those boys know how to gatecrash a party...

[Abaddon]

As said the reason the Dark angels hide the fact that some of them turned to Chaos is so that the Inquistion(sp) wont turn up with the Grey Knights and destroy the Chapter, thats why its only when you reach the inner circle that you know the truth, even then its only the chapter master and the highest ranking libraian and chaplin that know the whole truth oh yeah and the emperor is supposed to know. As for the watchers they guard luthor, plus they know where lion is. Is cypher good or bad, cos he helped Abaddon in his 13th black crusade?

[Ghost Maker]

Its like the relictors they started to use chaos to combat chaos with daemon weapons and lore. in the new white dwarf it tells of how there fortress monstrosety gets blown up by inquistorial grey knight forces when they were pronounced exterminatus diabolus and thats just for using weapons :D

[BlackTemplar]

Yeah, what do you mean Cypher is the only good DA? He fights against the SM.

Also, could we just sum up and make it clear who is good/bad in the DA chapter, this horrible grammar and lack of punctuation makes it extremely hard to understand.

[KingKupo]

the inquisition must punish radicals harsh, dealing with chaos, no matter how strong of will you are, is a deal you always lose. You don't become corrupted one day from another but in small steps, progressively you thirst for more power untill you don't matter how you'll get it. the radical might not know it, but he is an unwilling pawn of chaos.

It starts out innocent enough. some tomes you had to burn contain some knowledge that greatly helps you fight your foes.

the next step is using the wepons from the enemy. deamonswords and such

the third step is the creation of deamonhosts and others such as soulgaurds. the fallen gaurdians of the emperor who craft these abominatons are the most hated of all radicals.

Soi before someone starts posting: the empirium(sorry-y for using a similar term) is evil and kills people for no reason, keep this post in mind.

[Abaddon]

Right so cypher's a bad guy. Why does everyone these days refer the Imperium to the Empire? back on the topic i have been unable to locate any fluff on the watchers apart from what we know so this will end up being a GW mystery until they decide to change the fluff.

Think i will go back to the Dark angels instead of using my Iron Warriors.

[FeloniousPunk]

Also, could we just sum up and make it clear who is good/bad in the DA chapter, this horrible grammar and lack of punctuation makes it extremely hard to understand.

Man, that's the truth. A little less time spent on computer games, a little more spent on grammar lessons could do some folks a world of good. :dunce:

Oh yeah... current Dark Angels chapter is good, "Fallen Angels" and their leader Cypher are bad (original DAs gone to Chaos), they've been on the run from the DA since the Horus Heresy. That's pretty much all there is to it, apart from the secrecy of the whole affair.

[Hellscream]

Isnt Cypher supposedly on his way back to Terra to plead forgiveness from the Emperor? And return the Lion's sword (or something, cant remember) that will supposedly re-awaken Lion El'Johnson

[FeloniousPunk]

Isnt Cypher supposedly on his way back to Terra to plead forgiveness from the Emperor? And return the Lion's sword (or something, cant remember) that will supposedly re-awaken Lion El'Johnson

That would be extremely cool - do you have a source? Hard to keep up with all developments on the fluff front sometimes.

[MacBeth]

the watchers in the dark are the ones who can travel anywhere on the rock,and help the dark angels in small tasks,they can never be hurt and boast powerful psychic powers.they watch over the lion while he sleeps in the deepest part of the rock.

cypher is rumored to have the lion blade,which was broken in the battle with luther,or he may carry the black blade.it appears that hes makin his way to terra planet by planet,know one knows if he is helping the imperium or is trying to destroy it.he has helped and destroyed parts of the empire.

and the members of the inquisition who think they know something cant prove it.not even the grey knights cant guess what the dark angels know.and the dark angels are among the most loyal of the chapters,shamed but not willing to give up there duty to the emperor.

[NjalStormcall]

Cypher has the Lion Blade. Him reaching the Imperial Palace and speaking with the Emperor will be the first step before the Emperor resurrects and the the final battle occurs.

Cypher is neutral, but not evil in the sense of the normal Chaos Marines. He wants forgiveness for his sins, and you can be damned if you want to stand in his way(he only cares for what the Emperor's mercy, not typical human scum). However, he often fights against the forces of Chaos, so I'm going to consider him a force for good rather than evil.

The Fallen are often the perfect archetype for angst-ridden, unaccepted heros.

[MacBeth]

no one knows which blade he has,and alot of the fallen are trying to lve out the rest of there lives, or trying to repent or have totally turned to chaos.

[NjalStormcall]

Actually, old DA fluff says that comparatively few of the Fallen have completely turned to Chaos. They did see what Chaos did to Luther and their beloved homeworld, after all.

Most of them are just trying to live out their lives, switching names or murdering people as necessary to hide their identity, considering themselves masterless men. Cypher is the only one who can rally them for some reason.

[MacBeth]

I didnt say all of them turned,I know most of them are disgusted with themselves,but some have forsaken them selves.
go here,I saw this some time ago
www.dakkadakka.com/cypher's_tale.htm

[Hellscream]

Where did you find the little blurb of Cypher, i cant seem to remember where i saw it and it is driving me nutz :)

Thanks in advance.

[Hls123]

the da are heritics cypher is the true good dark angel and the da hunt the fallen because the fallen know too much dirt on the unforgiven ones

:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: you can't always listen/trust jesse (mpjesse363) he's absessed with cypher!..lol :banned:

[Captain Zog]

Just as a help for anyone searching, i remember they republished his rules in white dwarf a while back and mentioned he lost his C'tan knife to Nightbringer.

[MacBeth]

lol... on my neverending search for every single dark angel fluff I was interested in cypher for sometime and looked to google for some info,so I typed in cypher of the fallen or somethin like that I it came up with that.

[Abaddon]

the Inqusition must know something because they refuse to create Sm chapters from there gene stock and the Dark angels genes are the most stable second to the Ultramarines.

[MacBeth]

some know of the betrayel but cant prove anything,and dont want to bring down one of the most loyal and powerful of the chapters, emperor knows and he still favors the dark angels,if he didnt he would have at least let the grey knights know.

[xXExedusXx]

some know of the betrayel but cant prove anything,and dont want to bring down one of the most loyal and powerful of the chapters, emperor knows and he still favors the dark angels,if he didnt he would have at least let the grey knights know.

Mate,the emperor can't talk,can't move,can't even get up to take a piss.The emperor's soul isn't even directly connected to his body,it remains hidden in the warp until strong enough to return.the problem is it's only getting weaker.


Also like to clear one more thing up.Luthor was lions brother,right?he grew jealous of him and turned to chaos,yeah?

[MacBeth]

yeah I know of the emperors soul and mind is in the warp,thought he made only very few judgements to a select few.then they carry them out. and luther was pretty much his brother and father.when the emperor found the caliban and took jonson on the crusade,he left luther to defend caliban,over the years of hearing of jonsons victorys he grew more jealous,feeling he was left so jonson could get all the honour,he then corrupted the rest of the space marines on caliban,makin them think the lion left them there.the last blow was when the lion refused luther to come to the aid of terra,thats when he turned to chaos.

[Deathwing]

I've read something in a novel. I think it was Eye of terror, but I'm not sure about this.

There I read about a Dark Angel, who escaped from Caliban and unfortunately flew into the Eye of terror with a rescue pod. ( As far as I remember )
He awoke on a world in the Eye and met a fellow Space Marine. It was a Chaos Space Marine, but the Dark Angel didn't know anything about the existance of these creatures. The CSM wanted to seduce him to the dark Gods by telling him stories. I don't really know waht he said, but the Dark Angel agreed at first to join the CSM. They went to a place, where shrines for all chaos gods were present. But when he realized that Chaos couldn't be an opportunity for a Dark Angel, he killed the CSM. I think he even managed to get off the Chaos world and out of the Eye.

The point I'm trying to make is, that this shows, that not all Dark Angels back then on Caliban joined Chaos. Actually I think that there were only few who were seduced. The others simply obeyed orders from the upper ranks.

And about the geneseed: It is said ( Index Astartes ) that the geneseed of the Dark Angels is the purest of them all. But as already said, their geneseed is not used to found new chapters. So at least someone must know, although he might has no proof.

About Cypher: There is no clue, which side he is one. But one Thing is for sure. The Dark Angels won't stop their hunt for the fallen until Cypher is captured. Actually, the hunt for the fallen won't be over, until all fallen Angels are captured. But Cypher seems to be their primary target.

Watchers: To get back on topic: I' ve got a question. Nearly everyone knows that the Dark Angels refuse to fight along with aliens. So I think that they won't allow aliens to live in the rock. So why are the watchers allowed to live in the Rock? According to the way of fighting/ living of the Dark Angels, they can't be aliens and walk freely in their fortress.

Is it because they keep an eye on Jonson? Can't be the only reason.

Any clues here?

[MacBeth]

it was a mix of men from terra and caliban,and luther conviced the angels under his command that they were forsaken by the lion and that he wanted all the honour for himself.and many of the officers under luthers command were space marines from terra and they lusted to go back and claim planets for the emperor,like they did before they found the lion.

the geneseed is among the purest,the ultramarines are the purest then comes fists.but dark angels are the first and least degraded geneseed.
the dark angels hate cypher the most for the rumours about him,he is also the only one who can control many of the fallen at once.
the watchers cant be hurt.they watch over the rock,the lion and can go anywhere on the rock.I have a idea but I think it really aint worth hearin.

[Deathwing]

the watchers cant be hurt.they watch over the rock,the lion and can go anywhere on the rock.I have a idea but I think it really aint worth hearin.

Okay, you got my attention. Now what is the idea?

But please don't say squats.

[MacBeth]

squats... god no,never came to mind.
well I thought they may me part of the lions mind,still servin the dark angels even though he's not there in the flesh,I mean they only appeared when the lion was mortally wounded,then carried him off to protect him until the need arises. or put there by the emperor,they all are very powerful psychic's.I dont know if any other person thinks this,this is just what I think.small fractions of the lions mind.

hey deathwing,if you want to see some dark angel pic's I did,go to the gallery and go to the topic(some art)there I have some characters I made up.

[MetalMilitia]

Mate,the emperor can't talk,can't move,can't even get up to take a piss.The emperor's soul isn't even directly connected to his body,it remains hidden in the warp until strong enough to return.the problem is it's only getting weaker.


Also like to clear one more thing up.Luthor was lions brother,right?he grew jealous of him and turned to chaos,yeah?


Luthor was not the Lions brother, he was the one who found him and fought with him since he found the primarch on caliban. The Lion surpassed Luthor and thus the seeds of jealousy were planted.

Also the Emporer has been known to let people into his chamber. Actually the only instance I fully know of this is a small incident with a group of women called the wives of the emporer.... they seemed to come out of the throne room knowing a lot more than when they came in. Thus if the Emporer found the dire need to get rid of the DA he could get the Grey Knights to destroy them.

[Drunk-Spleen]

What i want to know about Cypher is in the old rules (not sure about the new ones, buying the codex next week cause my friend converted me to chaos) he could be taken by a chaos space marines OR imperial gaurd army, i know all the fluff and that but i still dont see why he would fight as the commander of an imperial guard army, i mean, he must have a better way to redeem himself than fight with the IG

[Paranoia833]

What i want to know about Cypher is in the old rules (not sure about the new ones, buying the codex next week cause my friend converted me to chaos) he could be taken by a chaos space marines OR imperial gaurd army, i know all the fluff and that but i still dont see why he would fight as the commander of an imperial guard army, i mean, he must have a better way to redeem himself than fight with the IG

Because desperate Imperial Guard take all the help they can get and don't ask about the agenda of any "space marines" that turn up to help them. As for Cypher's motives... it's a secret. :D

[Cailet]

It was Eye of Terror with the DA in yes Deathwing (damn good book too). There are hell of a lot of conspiracy theories involving Cypher, the DA, Abbadon and Tzeentch. Personally I think he is loyal to the Emperor but thats just me.
The faith in the areas he 'destabilised' before the EoT campaign went up big time too, so he isn't all for Abbadon (which is occasionally suggested).

[Hellscream]

holy crap.... i didnt realize that guy who was "destablising" those other worlds in the EoT campiagn was Cypher..... *slap himself*

Well... i guess he has an opportunity to head towards Terra now to meet with the Emperor, assuming he can sneak past everyone....

[Cailet]

He was the "Voice of the Emperor" in the run-up to the campaign. He probably used it as a distraction to tie up the DA so he could steal a march on them.

[Brother Bethor]

About the DA geneseed and why it's not used for more successor chapters. From what I have read, it doesn't seem to be a decision from Terra, but rather one that the Dark Angels themselves have made. In their shame, they choose not to spread their geneseed around anymore. Plus, if more chapters were made, presumably the new ones would have to be told about the secret DA history. And secrets known by many remain secrets very seldom.

[FeloniousPunk]

About the DA geneseed and why it's not used for more successor chapters. From what I have read, it doesn't seem to be a decision from Terra, but rather one that the Dark Angels themselves have made. In their shame, they choose not to spread their geneseed around anymore. Plus, if more chapters were made, presumably the new ones would have to be told about the secret DA history. And secrets known by many remain secrets very seldom.

Well, any successor chapter would be compelled to keep the secret, for the simple fact that they share geneseed and if they let the cat out of the bag, they'd be exterminated along with the DA.

There are two successor chapters to the Dark Angels, the Angels of Redemption and the Angels of Absolution. They are in on the secret and share the duty of their parent chapter in hunting down the Fallen.

The Index Astartes states that it is the High Lords of Terra who refuse to use the seed anymore (reasons unknown), but they include a line that states that there are no doubt other successor chapters to the DA, but there are no records of their founding.

I find that really odd. Probably thrown in there for players to make their own DA knock-offs.

[Brother Bethor]

There are two successor chapters to the Dark Angels, the Angels of Redemption and the Angels of Absolution. They are in on the secret and share the duty of their parent chapter in hunting down the Fallen.

There are three, and the second edition Dark Angels codex (Angels of Death) says that they weren't created from DA geneseed, but rather were the result of the division of the Dark Angels Legion into the more manageable chapter sizes.


The Index Astartes states that it is the High Lords of Terra who refuse to use the seed anymore (reasons unknown), but they include a line that states that there are no doubt other successor chapters to the DA, but there are no records of their founding.

I find that really odd. Probably thrown in there for players to make their own DA knock-offs.

Yeah, you're probably right about the DA knock off thing. And so I discount it altogether. And I guess you're right too about the High Lords of Terra, but think about it: even if they allowed it, do you really think the incredibly secretive Dark Angels would be in favor of letting more chapters into their shameful secret? Maybe, but I strongly doubt it.

[FeloniousPunk]

There are three, and the second edition Dark Angels codex (Angels of Death) says that they weren't created from DA geneseed, but rather were the result of the division of the Dark Angels Legion into the more manageable chapter sizes.

This is just nitpicking...

You're right, I forgot one (actually they are the Angels of Vengeance), but the codex says they were created from DA geneseed.

[MacBeth]

brother bethor... your the bethor from the inner circle right?

[No Surrender]

I remember hearing from somewhere that Cypher was going back to Terra to revive the Emperor.

[MacBeth]

its a rumour that he's headin towards terra to have the emperor reforge the lion sword and forgive the dark angels,theres also the story of him holding the black blade of luther and he's going to kill the emperor with it.

[Ghost Maker]

I dont think that is going to happen most fluff of the entire 40k universe goes around the emperor uless it has to do with that star child thing that if he dies he gets reborn and kicks some serious chaos ass :bandit: but that is not likely to happen since 40k would end if that were to happen

[FeloniousPunk]

Actually, old DA fluff says that comparatively few of the Fallen have completely turned to Chaos. They did see what Chaos did to Luther and their beloved homeworld, after all.

Most of them are just trying to live out their lives, switching names or murdering people as necessary to hide their identity, considering themselves masterless men. Cypher is the only one who can rally them for some reason.

This is what I don't understand then about the Fallen. The Fallen "fell" in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, 10,000 years ago. No humans save the Emperor survive those times. Space Marines are long lived but not that long lived. The only people apart from the Emperor who still lives from then are the Chaos Space Marines. The CSM endure because, well, they're not really human anymore (not even SM-human), giving their souls to the warp at least some of them are effectively immortal.

So how can the Fallen remain alive for so long unless they've gone over to Chaos?

[Fat Bhoy Tim]

This is what I don't understand then about the Fallen. The Fallen "fell" in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, 10,000 years ago. No humans save the Emperor survive those times. Space Marines are long lived but not that long lived. The only people apart from the Emperor who still lives from then are the Chaos Space Marines. The CSM endure because, well, they're not really human anymore (not even SM-human), giving their souls to the warp at least some of them are effectively immortal.

So how can the Fallen remain alive for so long unless they've gone over to Chaos?

Don't quite understand the question, but the fact is they're a mixture of old members and new. The inhabit the Eye of Terror and thus are immortal, but have to the best of my knowledge also added new members to their force in waiting.

[FeloniousPunk]

Don't quite understand the question, but the fact is they're a mixture of old members and new. The inhabit the Eye of Terror and thus are immortal, but have to the best of my knowledge also added new members to their force in waiting.

It was claimed earlier in the thread (see the quoted text in my last post) that the majority of the Fallen didn't turn to Chaos, but instead just want to live in obscurity. I question this, because as I explained, I cannot see how a human can live 10,000 without being either the Emperor or Chaos.

[Hellscream]

Luthor was the only DA SM to actually turn to the Chaos Gods and he poisoned the minds of those marines that are now known as The Fallen. When Luthor and Lion were fighting Luthor realised what he was doing and pretty much went insane, ie: mental hospital insane. Even the Fallen saw that they were fighting their brothers and were distraught.

Then the Chaos god got pissed off seeing that they fail to corrupt them and sucked the remaining Fallen into the Warp. In a sense they were gifted like the Chaos Marines with long life, but only some have fully turned to chaos. Some are trying to seek redemption, like Cypher *cough*, and are just misunderstood.....lmao. Cant remember who said it, but consider them neutral.

I have to admit that it is an awesome storyline that GW has got going for them, hopefully they dont mess it up badly. Only time will see.

[FeloniousPunk]

That clears things up, Hellscream, thanks.

[mpjesse363]

speaking of cypher is the fluff on the illuminate and the star child still valid or did gw trash it. i know there were minis released but dont know if it went further

[MacBeth]

the dark angels have captured cypher more than once,but he seems to always get away.

but when luther went insane he wished that his fallen were given a second chance, and were sucked into the warp.and not all the fallen have seen the error in there ways,look at the book the angels of darkness.then theres those fallen who have fallen to chaos.but most of the fallen have seen the error in there ways.
so have given up the way of the warrior and have become just another person in the crowd who try and help the people around them.
some have become pirates and mercs that serve them selves.
others have banded toghter to defend them selves from the brothers.
others have as I said turned to chaos.
its really mixed between the fallen.

[Cailet]

GW are trying to trash the Illuminati (and by extension the Star Child) but are making an absolute hash of it (check the BBB for their first attempt at killing them off). Then they undermine it all by re-releasing the Draco books.

[mpjesse363]

i wanna see that whats bbb?
i always thought that it was good fluff but just needed tweaked

[Cailet]

BBB the Big Black Book, current 40k rulebook. The next rulebook is (probably) gonna be the BGB (Big Grey Book)

[mpjesse363]

can you tell me the page i have the book here

[Evilfurby]

k Cypher is good he just manipulates those around him to futher his goal (to reach the emperor) The "star child" i believe you are refering to was the story of a cult that grew believing the resurrection of the emperor was at hand.. it was a chaos plan.

The fallen were spread throughout time and space hence in theory it is impossible for the DA to acheive their mission as undoubtably some will have been scattered to PI (pre imperium) times. the reason for this is in the story of luther

Luther was Jonsons compatirot and when the Emperor arrived on caliban he became a brother marine where he rose to captain of the first company of the first chapter (i.e. highest bar the founding Primarch) when the Horus Heresy occured Jonson left his trusted friend to guard his homeworld with half the legion. Throughout the Heresy the powers of chaos whispered to Luther turning him to hating Jonson believing that him being left to guard Caliban was a punishment in turn luther converted those around him
to the same mindset. When Jonson returned then Luther launched the batteries of the DA on the homecoming fleet not knowing what had happened Jonson returned with his own missles eventually Jonson teleported down to confront luther where they fought at the end of this Jonson was bested by Luther,who was then about to kill Jonson however at that point the veil was lifted from luthers eyes and he realised what he had done. this drove luther to such a deep pit of despair that he jsut curled up and begged forgiveness from Jonson, realising that their plan had failed the chaos gods openned a massive warp rift that due to the planets weakened state tore the planet apart and scattering the planets inhabitants (the fallen, Luther and Jonson) throughout time and space.

so that explains how fallen may appear at any point, as for Cypher there are the 2 main theories

that its Jonson who through the reforging of the Lion Blade shows his own forgiveness and the forgiveness of the emperor to the fallen

that is Luther that seeks to atone for his sins

finally even the ultramarines arent half the marines they used to be through the generations the progenoids have became weaker and weaker it is confirmed in several places that there are now several missing organs when the marines of 40k are compared to those of 30k this is the reason for chaos and fallen angels increased natural lifespan and the poster above is right very few fallen have turned to chaos

[MacBeth]

the marines that are missin those like the imperial fists but doesant make the marine any less effective.

but from the battle of caliban-furby was right in some of this,but heres what I know of the battle.
when the dark angel fleet came into orbit lasers came from the planets defense cannons and destoryed about four ships,the lion and the fleet left orbit to acess what had just happend,it took only a few moments for the lion to understand what had just happend,he then had the ships bomb the fortress's and cannon batteries,he then led the attack. one story is of some captain,cant remeber his name.but during the bombings it hit this captains bunker which housed ammo,the bunker killed nearly half of the fallen,but they fought on with the loyal angels,until they started to run out of ammo they fought with there knifes and butts of there guns,until the loyal angels couldnt keep the charge up,and had to pull back.but when the lion got to the orders fortress he was with some deathwing terminators,he told them to hold the doors from anyone entering,he then met luther who was in a aura of evil stared down on the lion and said that the lion was wrong and he banished him,etc. the too fought ,they were equals in battle,and the order fortress was crumbling under the fight within,as the two fought the planet cracked and heaved under the power of the bombardment from the loyal angels ships.but finally luther fell to the ground,even though the lion was furious he couldnt come to kill his friend,luther though seeing his chance sent a terrible sorcerous attack at the lion,wounding him mortally,but as luther stood over him he all of a sudden found out what he had just done,he not only betrayed his friend,his legion and the emperor he betrayed the the nobility within him,he threw his weapon aside and fell next to jonson,he went insane,when the dark gods found out they had lost agian they cuased a warp around the all ready cracking planet,and all the fallen were warped off the planet.the planet was destroyed and pretty much turned into a astriod belt. all that truly remained of caliban was a huge rock with the order fortress still on it,protected by a huge pyschic barrier,there they found luther in the order fortress jabbering about the watchers took him and he will come back to forgive me,and thats all he says.

the battle of the lion and luther sounds a little like the battle with the emperor and horus.