Competition

[space_marinez]

Reading alot of the reviews and comments about this game being a standout at E3 i wonder if any of you noticed this has in my eyes a major competitor being LOTR Battle for Middle Earth not GC2. It also brings you to large scale battles with unit interactions eg picking up and flinging around or units flying back from a clubbing. I am a major 40k fan but knowing many people do not know about warhammer especially compared to lord of the rings it might steal alot of its sales and hype.
PS I think DOW will be a better overall game

Any comments?

[hybris]

Well to make it brief;

1) BFME is produced by EA
2) BFME does not have what makes DoW unique and outstanding in the reviews; the massive amount of animation for each unit, and swapping weapons at fight style when in close combat.
3) BFME is not built upon a solid strategy game and strategy gaming fan base, just the fluff hype, and since this is a strategy game, not a roleplaying game - I think it will lose a lot of that hype.
4) BFME does not have the strat points system as used in DoW, and not even the ordinary skirmish mutli player. Instead it has rather dull teamplay against the computer and some other modes that only allow you to either build on certain spaces or use a predefined army.
5) BFME is produced by EA

I'm not at all worried, even though I am a big fan of Tolkien's work.

[sundown]

I'm going to let Dawn of War speak for itself when it is released and tops the charts on popularity. :D

[Azhrarn]

The Strange thing about "LOTR: The Battle For Middle-Earth" is that it's engine seems to be a direct copy of the engine of Battle Realms. While that was a good engine, very clean and smooth, it does lack a great deal of the power a modern game needs. Also the new resource system completely messes up the way the Battle Realms engine was supposed to work making the game quite slow and not as much fun to play as I had hoped.

DoW's engine on the other hand seems to be build from scratch with amazing graphic results. (Gameplay I don't know about yet) It looks amazing, and if it plays well.... let there be no doubt that I will buy this game and play it. I love the 40K universe. (I'm a player myself) as I love most GW worlds. This is different, I like that. And Relic has a great reputation for games, so the signs are good.

[severijn]

LOTR: BFME uses an advanced c&c generals engine IIRC.

[dd77]

LOTR: BFME uses an advanced c&c generals engine IIRC.


Yeah I think I remember reading that as well

[Necronmaniac]

It does indeed use an advanced generals engine. TBH i will probably buy both but buy DoW first, BFME looks great certainly graphically, but for me the major pull of DOW will be getting to grips with the armies ive fought both with and against on the table top in a new, real time environment which looks equally impressive graphically but which has a few little bits of eye candy thrown in there in the shape of masses of animation and great little extras like troops being able to both shoot and engage in melee etc etc.
All in all this game is going to rock :D

[Alendor]

well, when i watched that e3 trailer for the lotr game, it wasn't very impressive, it seemed like it was just another run of the mil strat game, not something that is going to be revolutionary like DoW.

also they tried to capture the mass armies from the movie, but with only a fraction of the men fighting, which in my experience, never turn out good. its hard to recreat battles with 10,000 units, with only a hundred in the game.

in my opinion the top strategy title will be a fight between rome total war and DoW. unless the of course the sheeple masses all buy the lotr game just because they liked the movie

[NightBringer]

hey, hybris, that list you made, is that supposed to be all the bad things about BFME?

if it is, how is it being made by EA a bad thing? EA have made some of the best games around

[FallenSoloSLS]

Name one great RTS game by EA.

IMHO, C&C Generals and Zero Hour were not that great.

[GreatSamaman]

Azhrarn: Just to clarify something minor, the DoW engine is not built from scratch, it is a heavily modified Impossible Creatures engine. :D

[Yuryu]

unless of course the sheeple masses all buy the lotr game just because they liked the movie
You'r probably right. EA targets the broader public with their LOTR games, those who know the movie and play computer games, i.e. casual gamers. The game visually closely resembles the movie but the resource/battle setup is very basic and well known.

Now the Warhammer 40k universe is not so widely known, those who play it are limited but dedicated. DoW will probably more focus on those and other hardcore gamers that want something new and challenging. So we get an advanced game with those things only the hardcore gamers could care about (advanced unit customization, etc.)

[Noir]

Azhrarn: Just to clarify something minor, the DoW engine is not built from scratch, it is a heavily modified Impossible Creatures engine. :D

Yeah,I was going mention that too.Not that it matters really.In fact,the IC engine is one of the better engines to use for DoW,because you had the ability to change creatures into wierd hybrid things,just like you can change weapon loadouts :)

[Triceron]

Yuryu has a point.

Sure DoW will beat out BfME in gameplay, practical features and whatever, but EA has a huuuge marketting campaign as well as the big-name liscences to not even make the gameplay matter. Casual players who don't read reviews will look at the game, see it played, think its cool and buy it.

DoW looks like it caters much more towards the hardcore players, and I'm happy that it does. It's a solid game and it's popular to the people it matters to. Either way, this game already looks bigger (And more well recognized) than any other previous Relic release!

[Space Reamer]

From what I've seen/read etc, DoW is going to make BFME look about as exciting as watching Paint Dry, the graphics looks awesome, features sound awesome, god I just can't wait for this game to come out :fight:

BFME will prob be a massive game when it comes, but then most prob like Generals & ZH, die out as the hype dies down. I will agree, EA made an excellent game, I'm just upset to see how the game has died, only to find out that DoW is coming out!! :D

I couldn't tell you how many Space Wolves I've painted in my time so safe to say, getting to watch them Frag some Orks to death is going to be like a dream come true (I always got owned at the Tabletop...)

To Put it simply, nothing will come close to this game in the RTS Genre as nothing has the same depth of detail as the Warhammer world, roll on the Fall.....

[tasukami]

hi im new to this type of web site i am a WH40k fan and i think the new game looks like a great game mainly becaus of the diffrent types of weapons and kills. i like Triceron because i collect tau.. they rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SkarVet]

This really does look like a one-of-a-game kinda game, amazing detail etc. I play all the races on the propa TT game, and can't wait to play them all on DoW. There is no doubt that this game will rule the game chart for quit some time.

[Space Reamer]

Amen to that SkarVet!

[LORD ORION]

Well, there is another thing to consider. The staying power of DoW. If the engine is as open and moddable as Relic says it is, there should be a pretty awesome 3rd party scene to keep the game going.

Look at the StarCraft vs Total Annihilation community. Sure StarCraft is big, but the number of mods for TA is amazing, and it still has a massive community of its own because of this.

I wouldn't worry about it, BFME is going to get blown away by Rome Total War anyways ;)

[CClimax]

Let's also look at another fact:

How many 40K RTS games are there?
Unless I missed the news flash... none.

War of the Ring is an already made LOTR RTS, and from what I remember, not so great. Reminded me of Battle Realms mixed with TA: Kingdoms, but not done very well.

I think all 40K fans have been waiting for this for a long time, and many people who watch 40K from the windows will take an interest as well. (I was one of the windows people, never had the $ for the miniatures)

Not to say EA is going to bomb, they may do ok with it. They have all that capital from their Harry Potter division, but LOTR is kinda played out in my opinion, and how many times can you re-do the same battles from the books?

[Gh0St]

dow will own guys...just lets make the online community solid and big...then it will own every game ^^ leagues ladder teams uuhuh GO! :)

[Crested_Ones]

Now the Warhammer 40k universe is not so widely known, those who play it are limited but dedicated. DoW will probably more focus on those and other hardcore gamers that want something new and challenging.

I cant say I agree with you on this point, the Warhammer universe is HUGE!! They have stores across the globe, not to mention hobby stores that sell them as well as online stores. Most kids and young adults know about warhammer, and even if they dont collect and paint they probably game!

[NightBringer]

Most kids and young adults know about warhammer, and even if they dont collect and paint they probably game!

either that or neither and jsut call any kid that does sad and geeky :P

but yeh, there are stores everywhere, but in terms of majorities, LOTR has a far bigger fanbase (thanks to the movies), but i bet after this game is released, the warhammer universe will undergo a huge expansion as people play the game and see the hobby.

one thing that would be cool is if there is a special eddition of this game, that GW make a limited ed model and put it in the box (like of the FC), thats a good way of advertising the hobby

[Drunk-Spleen]

didnt feel like reading the posts but wanted to say this still.

Anyone here heard of war of the ring, a lord of the rings RTS that came out this year, yeah i thought not, they may seem to have the hype but often they just dont get off the ground anyway, everyones busy still playing star/warcraft

[Richtofen]

How many 40K RTS games are there?
Unless I missed the news flash... none.

Space Hulk
Chaos Gate
Rites of War (never played it though)

[peer]

Space Hulk
Chaos Gate
Rites of War (never played it though)
None of those are RTSs.

[Deathwing]

Space Hulk
Chaos Gate
Rites of War (never played it though)

Plus:

Space Hulk II - Vengeance of the Blood Angels
Warhammer 40.000 EPIC: Final Liberation
Space Crusade

EDIT: Peer is right, none of those games are RTS, but they are fun anyway.

[Russian Ninja]

Lets see...in this magazine here (PC Power Play, an Aussie magazine) we've got the E3 coverage section. According to this whilst Battle for Middle Earth looks like it's trying to give Rome, Total War a run for its money in terms of epic size, apparently it's still just a traditional RTS. You gather resources, you build bases, you have 'instant two thousand year old Elves' and so on, just all on a very big scale. Of course that's probably not really going to matter to fans of LoTR, just as Firewarrior, despite being mediocre at best, still sold big to Warhammer fanatics eager to shoot up Chaos Space Marines with a Burst Cannon.

[peer]

The thing that will stop BFME to live up to the "epic" hype is, to me, the fact that they still use single units. Whereas Rome is capable of several thousand individual men on screen at once, BFME will have at most a fraction of this. Why can't more strategy games see that squads, regiments or whatever you want to call them is the future? Gives you much better control and looks a lot better as well.

[Space Reamer]

Well, safe to say, I am a Warhammer Fan anyway, always have been and always will, but am also an avid RTS Player. Hence why I am looking forward to this game. I think that the game will sell big to the public as whole, and not just Warhammer Gamers. Looking at it, it's a totally diff breed of RTS and certainly looks like it will be full of action. I hope that it gets released at the same time as BFME as I honestly think that it will steal the Glory of EA's latest.

And like Peer said, the whole squad thing really does will seperate this from the rest. And, if this game does well, the likelyhood of expansion of huge due to Warhammer universe, there's still so much from 40K that 'aint been touched which means that hopefully, there will be a massive community, for a v long time

[Law_1620]

It all comes down to balance and gameplay. As long as this game does it the best it will reign for years to come. I am just happy to have another chapter in the WH40K universe. Hope sales are really strong so they will entertain the expansion idea. I already have 8 friends ready to buy on opening day and a few members in my guild.


TBW 4 Life!

[CClimax]

It all comes down to balance and gameplay.

Amen, gameplay is always king (in my book). That's why us gamers STILL play old school NES, SEGA, and SNES. The gameplay was there and still is today

[Grogsnot]

EA, and 95% of the games they publish, are garbage. They are such a negative force on the industry it isn't even funny.

DOW is going to blow LOTR out of the water.

[NightBringer]

grotsnot... how many of EA's many games have you played? either your saying that becasue u have a bought a game that is in a genre that they dont excel at (namely RTS)... or you jsut dont like sports games, which is their specialty.

[CClimax]

Not to give EA too much credit, but their sports division is unrivaled. No company comes close, unfortunately. And, whether true gamers like them or not, they make it where it (sometimes) counts... in the wallet.

http://www.npdfunworld.com/funServlet?nextpage=trend_body.html&content_id=780

They have three games in the top 10, that adds up to quite a bit of the green stuff.

But anyway, EA doesnt have the RTS library to back this up and this whole LOTR has been flooded with too much, people are just tired of it now. Leave it to EA to jump on the wagon way late. This Rome Total War thing, I dont know anything about it, haven't done any research, but with any luck, BFME and Total War will bicker it out with each other's profits while 40K sneaks past and robs them blind.

Huzzah

[OrionAssante]

"When it comes to games based on popular movie or TV licenses, there is an exceedingly fine line between making a game that your typical gaming audience can appreciate and making a game a casual fan of your chosen license will be able to grasp. All too often, developers will simply abandon any sort of challenge or interesting gameplay mechanics in order to make these games more accessible to the casual audience, and usually the end result is a product so dumbed down that it borders on unplayable."

A quote from a video game reviewer that applies to many film to game licenses and to be honest the more I read about BFME the less I like about it although I was initially hyped.
I am quite sure Rome TW will be the king of single player game play. Both in Shogun and Medieval TW I put in more than the occasional 8-10 hour marathon gaming session that only scratched the surface of my developing empires.
However I think DoW has a much broader appeal for multiplay and it seems like multiplay will probably become the standout feature.

Oh, and Sega's NBA series outshines EA's, although I admit I am a fan of the EA's Medal of Honour games with exception of the horrible Rising Sun game.

[Kaldaris]

heh I bet Dawn of War will be the next starcraft in terms of popularity.

[Noir]

I seriously doubt that frankly.

[PredatorZ]

heh I bet Dawn of War will be the next starcraft in terms of popularity.

You must be joking. :Slap:

[Kingslayer]

I think most of you guys need to step back and take a DEEP breath and ponder on this.

How many games have you been super hyped on, only to see them and think "i waited HOW long for this crap?"

Civilization 3, Masters of Orion 3 both spring to mind as falling into this vein.

While i am hopeful and optimistic about what i have seen so far about DoW, i think i will wait till i actually play it, before proclaiming its greatness.

As for Company Based RTS games, how many of you have ever tried Kohan: Ahrimans Gift?

Now there is a proper strategy game.

[Kaldaris]

Why not? honestly what has Starcraft done that made it so popular? tell me what.

:Slap:

[PredatorZ]

EA, and 95% of the games they publish, are garbage. They are such a negative force on the industry it isn't even funny.

DOW is going to blow LOTR out of the water.

Im sorry, but this is bullshit.

Double Post


Why not? honestly what has Starcraft done that made it so popular? tell me what.

:Slap:

It is the most well known RTS in the entire world, it has been called one of the greates games of all time by almost every PC magazine there is, it was the first RTS of it's kind to have the kind of gamplay it does, and it's modding community is great. No game will ever be as popular as it because Starcraft was the first of it's kind, Warhammer is the same as any other RTS except that it's pretty. Until we come out with 3D visor's where you are actually inside a game world, nothing will be as revolutionary as Starcraft again.

[CClimax]

Until we come out with 3D visor's where you are actually inside a game world, nothing will be as revolutionary as Starcraft again.

And we all know that 3D visor's will only be used for FPS's, MMORPG's, and porn.

[peer]

Sorry, how was Starcraft revolutionary again? By 1998 the RTS genre was well established, and SC didn't exactly rock the foundations of real-time strategy games.

It's a stereotypical RTS game (admittedly also a quite good one for its time), but not revolutionary by any stretch of the word.

[Kaldaris]

what other game has morale,squad based fighting,fully 3D Enviroment,no peon units,music made from an award winning composer and a realistic game engine all in one?

[PredatorZ]

what other game has morale,squad based fighting,fully 3D Enviroment,no peon units,music made from an award winning composer and a realistic game engine all in one?

Ground Control.

And if you think DoW is going to be revolutionary just because of that, you are delusional. People are just going to see it as another RTS.

Double Post


Sorry, how was Starcraft revolutionary again? By 1998 the RTS genre was well established, and SC didn't exactly rock the foundations of real-time strategy games.

It's a stereotypical RTS game (admittedly also a quite good one for its time), but not revolutionary by any stretch of the word.

It was immensly popular, thats how it was revolutionary. The game itself wasn't that special, but the amount of attention and praise it got was unlike anything else.

Double Post


And we all know that 3D visor's will only be used for FPS's, MMORPG's, and porn.

What about RPG's?

[Gh0St]

yep i think dow will be very pop. but not as starcraft imo. starcraft is something special, i bet a game will make the same impact that sc did. look at korean pro-gaming scene,,,Starcraft is the main game (by far) of pro-gamers, with TV-Channel 24/7 only about starcraft, covering leagues , making interviews etc... some BIG companys have an Starcraft Pro-team including SK TELECOM, KTF etc... and the sc progamer in korea is a POP ppl..like a soccer player in other countries. A korean pro player wins about 5,000 to 10,000 dollars/month...and MORE the publicity money that, if is not more, is the same quantity of the salarie.

Then you can conclude, StarCraft is great> :)

[Noir]

Starcraft is very popular because of it's combination of extremely good balance between it's races and it's excellent multiplayer services.This is what makes it popular and still played to this day/played way too much in Korea.

As much as I would like to think that Relic could manage to make such a game of this caliber,I cannot because even though Relic created a entire sub-genre,imo it still needs some growth before it can do another Starcraft.It's multiplayer coding needs a bit of work,and some more experience tackling the RTS market as a whole.

While I do think that Relic does almost Blizzard quality work,it saddens to know that it's just that,almost.

Lastly...I don't have enough faith in the RTS market to understand how to play a 3D RTS to this day,the mainstream parts at least.

[PredatorZ]

Relic knows how to make a game look nice and play without a hitch, but when it comes to gamplay in their games, its not exactly that great. For example, Homeworld 2 was rediculously hard in the single-player, and its multiplayer was (in my opinion) terrible. I love playing skirmishes and stuff on HW2, but thats it.

[Noir]

Well most people like how Relic's games play,but they usually think their netcodes need a bit of work.

[azmodean]

Ground Control.
It was immensly popular, thats how it was revolutionary. The game itself wasn't that special, but the amount of attention and praise it got was unlike anything else.


Popularity of a product does not equate to it being revolutionary. The revolution occurred with dune I and II, then there was a smaller revolution with c&c and warcraft. The biggest change between warcraft and starcraft was the three unique, balanced races as opposed to warcrafts' nearly identical races. Starcraft was the first one to really get it right, but as has been said, it was nowhere near revolutionary, the things that made it great had allready been introduced successfully in other games. I'm not trying to put down blizzard or starcraft, it's a great company and a great game.

Now what I think is really great about DoW that makes it stand out is the level of animation detail, the elimnation of the resource gatherers, and what I percieve as an overall comitment to making a great game in the wh40k universe. All of these concepts have been developed to some extent previously, but from what I've seen, DoW is going to take them all to "the next level" (I hate using that phrase, but I can't think of another one that fits better)

[Kaldaris]

I thought starcraft was so popular becuase of all the bugs and such(if you ever played a user map setting game you'll know what I mean)

[Gh0St]

StarCraft was and IS so pop. couse its almost perfect, a game is never = the other... ok first 5 minutes or so of build order etc mayb are aways the same, but after this, players just have alot of options tatics...this is way so many koreans (and other ppl) enjoy watch starcraft games on tv or so... ;P