Counter to BCs

[sapi]

is there really any counter to 2 or more BCs coming towards your base except having BCs yourself.

i ask this as 3 times today my enemy did this, and Vagyr dont usually get BCs and DDs, so i was stuffed.

if anyone has any ideas about how to respond, im open to suggestions

Rant Warning
the bc seems way overpowered to me. the fact that i BC [4000RU] can defeat 5 DDs [10000RU]! is overbalanced. the BC doesn't take longer to build than the DDs, and its certainly cheaper, so it makes me wonder why anyone in their right minds would build destroyers.
Sure i know that the BC has to be researched [1800RU] and built at a shipyard [3500RU] but this money only needs to be spent once, and the shipyard is useful for other things too. I know this has been said many times before, but it still needs to be said again. maybe the BC should be 5k and the limit reduced to 2....
we just have to hope and wait for 1.2

[Sps]

bombers (with advanced bombs)- take out bc's turret and engines

dds - ONE dd can kill a bc if used properly -

hint move your stuff while atacking directly above the top ion turret

finally since bc is disabled nothing is stopping you from sending infiltrators at it - as a vaygr you have an advantage too as your infiltrators get upgraded with the frig upgrades - marines dont.

[Starblade]

BC's can also be taken out by loads of corvettes and/or frigates.

[Taiidan Admiral]

...which can all end up costing more than twice as much as one bc.

I'm probably just biased cuz bc rushing is one of my main strategies and is just so fun!

In conclusion, the only way to STOP a bc is with a gravwell, and if that bc doesn't have escorts, it should be easy picking. And if you let that thing crawl all the way to your base without doing anything, you deserve to be shot.

[Magus]

Killing one BC shouldn't be hard, you can either bomb the upper turret and attack above the centerline, or kill the engines and missile batteries and attack however. If you dont have bombers, merely keep your frigates/destroyers above the upper ion turret, and it cant turn up to hit them. Against Vay BCs, just keep your fleet moving so it can never fire the trinity.

Also with bombers, if you can knock out even one of the turrets or the missile battery, 4 marine frigates can capture it. 6 upgraded infils can capture a BC without the BC being touched beforehand.

Now, if the enemy has multiple Hiig BCs, you either need to have a large frigate or destroyer group and keep above the centerline so they can only strike with half their firepower, or you need to bomb some turrets beforehand. If there are multiple Vay BCs, you fight them as you would one: just keep everything moving. If you can bomb them out completely, or destroy one, capture again becomes an option.

What is a greater threat with BCs is that they can ignore your fleet entirely and delete a few carriers/MS/SY while you kill it. Thats why gravity wells, hyperspace sensors, and proximity sensors are there.

Though I mostly spoke of bombers, if you have mass interceptors/AC/Lances/Pulsars, you can kill off subsystems, it will just take a while. With Laser Corvettes, a full swarm can be set on a BC, and then just wait a couple of minutes for it to explode.

Now people will correctly say that most of these counter options cost more than the BC(s), with the exception of using manuver to evade sole BCs weapons. However, you should have those ships anyway, and after the battle you should have survivors to carry the fight to the enemy. Also, don't forget the infrastructure it takes to get BCs. Which do you think costs more, a BC and necessary infrastructure, or 5 DDs and infrastructure?

RM(1500)+ARM(2250)+Hypermod(1000)+SY(3500)+CapMod(1800)+BC res(1800?)+BC(4000) = 15850

RM(1500)+CapMod(1800)+DD research(1800?)+DD(2000)*5 = 15100

[Tank Ripgrunt]

I've used minelayers to some good effect before, although never against a BC. Minelayers were one of my favorite ways to pop a MS in HW1.

[Pherdnut]

As Vaygr, Heavy missile frigates are probably the quickest way to knock out BCs. Having a swarm to disable turrets and engines helps a lot. Always go for engines first if they're getting close to your home base, and make sure you get hyperspace sensors up so you can spot jumps from the other side. Cloaked BCs are very popular.

[Talos v1.4]

the fact that i BC [4000RU] can defeat 5 DDs [10000RU]! is overbalanced

BCs are anti-destroyer, just like 1 dd can take on 5 frigs because they are anti-frigate. Even so, if you're just letting your ships sit there and get fragged, you're doing something wrong.


makes me wonder why anyone in their right minds would build destroyers.

To counter frigates and provide heavy assault fire without having to pay an excrutiating amount of rus.


Sure i know that the BC has to be researched [1800RU] and built at a shipyard [3500RU] but this money only needs to be spent once, and the shipyard is useful for other things too

....Same with destroyers, only with cheaper research and only a cap ship facility requirement. With a shipyard along with your MS you can double produce dds.


we just have to hope and wait for 1.2

Highly unlikely, and I doubt they'd change the stats on that. With all the weaknesses of a BC that can be exploited, they better not change the cost.

As for countering BCs? How about not letting them build one at all. If you're leaving your foe alone long enough to build and research all the prerequisites, let alone build 2 or 3 of them, you're not being aggressive enough. BCs are endgame units/ game finishers, which is why they're so powerful. Take more time into knowing what you're enemy is building, and act on it.

Especially with Vaygr; their BCs suck.

[hardcoded]

...which can all end up costing more than twice as much as one bc...

But it should naturally be part of your fleet anyway.

[sapi]

As for countering BCs? How about not letting them build one at all. If you're leaving your foe alone long enough to build and research all the prerequisites, let alone build 2 or 3 of them, you're not being aggressive enough. BCs are endgame units/ game finishers, which is why they're so powerful. Take more time into knowing what you're enemy is building, and act on it.

Yes, the general idea would be not to let the enemy get bcs, but in the games i was talking about that person's ally was distracting me and my team enough (with things like resource op strikes and module strikes) that their ally could develop in relative safety


As Vaygr, Heavy missile frigates are probably the quickest way to knock out BCs. Having a swarm to disable turrets and engines helps a lot. Always go for engines first if they're getting close to your home base, and make sure you get hyperspace sensors up so you can spot jumps from the other side. Cloaked BCs are very popular.

Yes, but i was focusing on strike craft and corvettes, my ally on frigs, DDs and BCs, and as such didn't have frig chassis researched....but i learned from that mistake.


Now people will correctly say that most of these counter options cost more than the BC(s), with the exception of using manuver to evade sole BCs weapons. However, you should have those ships anyway, and after the battle you should have survivors to carry the fight to the enemy. Also, don't forget the infrastructure it takes to get BCs. Which do you think costs more, a BC and necessary infrastructure, or 5 DDs and infrastructure?

RM(1500)+ARM(2250)+Hypermod(1000)+SY(3500)+CapMod( 1800)+BC res(1800?)+BC(4000) = 15850

RM(1500)+CapMod(1800)+DD research(1800?)+DD(2000)*5 = 15100

The majority of the bc research and mods only have to be done once, as with the dd. but the cost of 5 dds is 10000 and 1 bc 4000. so if u forget researches, bc is much cheaper. alot of that stuff ull have anyway (RM, ARM, Hypemod etc)

and bcs can be pumped out for the rest of the game once that (admittedly high) start up price has been paid

my point is, that in the long run a bc WILL be cheaper than destroyers

[atmawpn]

the bc seems way overpowered to me. the fact that i BC [4000RU] can defeat 5 DDs [10000RU]! is overbalanced.

Actually, I should say that the 5 DDs are definitely more than sufficient to hold off a BC or two. Just keep them out of the line of fire! If against Higgy BC, go up. If against Vaygr BC, go down! :P

Then there is the ultimate BC counter - repeated dozens of times in countless threads, we have the Bombers! Go go bombers! Bomb the crap out of the BCs and send in the Marines cloaked with a cloaked MS at full armor and speed! (Bizarre strat that's very risky. I did it in one game and literally sacrificed my MS for a newly-captured BC, turning the tide of battle!)

[BrianGeneral]

Bombers+DDs,or just large number of Torp Frigs(Hig) or HMFs(Vay)(or +Bombers).

Use Bomers take out their engines and weapon systems(Hvy Missile Battery for Vay BC,Ion Turret for Hig BC),also their modules if possible.then,it's just a sitting duck.

Say goodnight to BCs.

[Alpha_1]

What you guys are forgetting is that any DDs given an attack order will do the most idiotic thing, they will go DOWN to the BC to be on the same damn plane as the BC and thus get eaten by both ions.

To get 5 DDs to take out a BC requires constant attention to keep them from doing the idiotic AI 'we want to die' dance.

It happens every time, you tell the DDs to move over the ion of the BC then tell em to attack, next thing you know they are sitting in front of the BC instead of over, like lambs to the slaughter.

The AI really sucks for a lot of the ships, it is almost as annoying as everyone in the game being able to kick a player instead of just the host. There are some serious flaws in the way the ships handle battle.

[Edit]
The truth is if you are so easily distracted by one or two allies and are unable to get your own BCs and bombers out, you were not going to win the game even without the BCs showing up.

Once you get overly distracted enough to not be harrassing their workers, the game is as well as over, I can assure you that if you are on the team that is losing workers and are not doing as much damage to the other team's workers as they do to yours, you lose.

I've been in 3v3 games that turn into 2v3, where my one ally and I have won because the other 3 person team could not get past us to attack our workers while we continually took out their workers with small raids.

I love to see the worker building in the stats list 20 for me and 30+ for my opponent.

[Magus]

Actually Alpha, what you do is order the attack, then order the move. They will then stay in that posistion. However, you will have to relocate them to keep them in the BC's blind spot if it moves significantly.

[Alpha_1]

Watch them, as soon as you order them to attack, even when you order a move attack and they acknowledge, they start moving down again. You have to order them again and again to move to keep them from suiciding.

[Magus]

Never had it happen to me... I think my DD that got 3 BC kills can attest to that :)

[Talos v1.4]

Watch them, as soon as you order them to attack, even when you order a move attack and they acknowledge, they start moving down again. You have to order them again and again to move to keep them from suiciding.

That has never happened to me before, and I move my dds around quite a bit. Are you absolutely sure you're doing the move attack command correctly?


my point is, that in the long run a bc WILL be cheaper than destroyers

I guess you didn't read the beginning of the post when I said that BCs are anti-destroyer units. The BC is suppose to have an advantage over them, thus it is more cost effective. This is a principle used in most RTS games.

Let me try to give you a simple example on a basic model such as, say, Age of Empires. Archers and infantry cost 50 gold each, while cavalry costs 100 gold. Cavalry counters archers, archers counter infantry, and infantry counters cavalry. Cavalry, though expensive, is meant to counter archers, so 1 horseman can kill 5 archers. That is a 100 gold unit countering 250 gold of 5 units. Those same archers are anti-infantry, so 1 archer (50) can kill 3 infantry (150). They are cost effective like that because they are meant to counter specific units. In HW2, it's no different. The reason BCs are cost effective against dds is because they are meant to counter dds. But at the same time, a BC has weak defense against bombers and can be effectively shut down by losing its subsystems.

Plus, look at it this way, sapi. Although it costs 10000 ru for 5 dds, you have 5 seperate units that can be divided, organized, prioritized, and will keep firing until the bitter end. A BC is but one unit, and a lot of times they are declawed before they are destroyed. And 3 BCs amount to 12000 rus.


and bcs can be pumped out for the rest of the game once that (admittedly high) start up price has been paid

....So can dds, with a lesser start price. With the MS and shipyard you can double pump dds as well.

[sapi]

they will go DOWN to the BC to be on the same damn plane as the BC and thus get eaten by both ions.

yes, thats probably why my dds were eaten alive - the bc hyped in


so 1 archer (50) can kill 3 infantry (150).

and 100 archers are unstoppable (i play AOE2)

[Talos v1.4]

and 100 archers are unstoppable (i play AOE2)

Never played the first one. Besides, that unit counter system is actually from Empire Earth.

[orderedKnight]

I like ion frigs for BC killing. You don't NEED a full 21 frig battlegroup, but that many frigs (if a mix of around 11 ions, 7 torps, and 3 flaks) work wonderfully at killing BC, and anything else the enemy throws at you.

21 ion frigs can kill 3 BC's with few losses IF you do the command moves as other people have told you. Anything in numbers can kill a BC, but the reason the ions are good is because of the SPEED that the BC's die. That many ion frigs will kill a fully upgraded BC in less than a minute (prob under 30 seconds), meaning all 3 BC's die before they get to fire 3-4 ion volleys...... meaning if you had a gravwell, 3 BC's might not even kill your MS, they certainly won't kill your MS, and all your carriers.

...........................

I am NOT saying always build masses of ion frigs (then they would be laser food), but they are the best anti cap option the hig have. the same fleet of ions works equally well against an opposing frig wall, or 5 DD's. I normally like to have one teammate build DD's while I build frigs and then donate to each other.

of course bombing the BC weapons/mods and then capturing it is even better, but that is a slightly more advanced counter. Try this first if you just CAN'T seem to ever counter BC's. I find they are actually easier to kill than 2-3 DD's because it is just one big, SLOW target. You get more time to bring in reinforcements and build that cloak mod.

If vaygr, you prob already have a swarm, put all fighters and missle vettes on the subsystems, start the lasers to pounding on it and either use HMF's to finish it off, or use infils. Upgrade infil speed then armor, so they latch on fast.

[sapi]

btw,

Besides, that unit counter system is actually from Empire Earth.
you've just made my point stronger :nana:

[Talos v1.4]

btw,

you've just made my point stronger :nana:

Uh, no I didn't....

[polaris408]

lol....
btw, have any of you witnessed the horror of 30 flaks? (high unit cap, of course)
theyre fast, and have a high fire rate, doing as much damage as possible
instance 1)
while alpha and i were testing out RBT i came in and decimated a comp in less than 5 mins, although granted they were ill prepared. i took a sy in about 15 secs and their 10 ions didnt stand a chance. fighters... well, enough said. all in all, i lost 1 frig, which was replaced fairly quickly. to be honest, i had more success with flaks v. everything than bombers v. ms! i had my bombers on mod stripping duty and before i knew it those peashooters on the ms made me comeback and dock/rebuild!
instance 2)
i had about 10 flaks take a bc with about 10-15 squadrons of bomber support from my ally- he decimated the engines and the turret and my flaks increased the amount of hp taken off while keeping the flies off our backs

this is just another instance of "more is better" as stated earlier in the thread

[masta-aaron]

can somone one tell me how to download the files t beable to create my own maps and ships coz da stuff i get dont work

[polaris408]

Welcome to the forums, aaron
first off, this prolly isnt the best spot to put your question. I'd suggest searching tanis, as there are many who have the same question as yourself.
and if and when you come across a topic that hasnt been mentioned before, it would be to your advantage to make a new thread so the community can find it and post their ideas.
since im at it, i'll point you to Mission boy SE (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=27472&highlight=missionboy) for map making and for ship making, there's tons of stuff, but shipScript (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=28046) seems appropriate for the call.
happy posting!

[sapi]

Uh, no I didn't....

look, dont talk about things u dont know - THERE IS NO COUNTER TO ARCHERS IN EE!!

back to hw2, frigs are good bc killers, but
a) i was vaygr, and hadn't researched frigs
b) nor did i have a frig facility

[ani]

Don't let them build a BC in the first place is usually the best way of dealing with them...

[polaris408]

agreed. there's nothing more horrifying than being 95% done on an early bc and getting the cap facil bombed out on a quick raid. of course, if they have cloak gens, you have to be sure to prox the area first

[Talos v1.4]

THERE IS NO COUNTER TO ARCHERS IN EE!!

Did you even play the game longer than 5 minutes? Shock infantry (swordsman/clubman) and cavalry was the unit counter to archers. Archers countered pierce infantry, and pierce infantry countered cavalry.


back to hw2, frigs are good bc killers, but
a) i was vaygr, and hadn't researched frigs
b) nor did i have a frig facility

That's a moot point. Your lack of aggression allowed the other team to build BCs in the first place.

[Magus]

BTW polaris, if the cloak gen in question is based on the SY, It offers no protection from raiding Strike craft, as the generator is weaker than those based elsewhere. I've surprsed many people with that fact...

[ilia1986]

Thats illogical. The SYs mass value translates into Hitpoints. Claiming that a certain module on a 80,000 hitpoint-to-massa value has more armour than the same module on a 160,000 hitpoint-to-massa value, would be illogical, if you consider the fact that the larger the hitpoint-to-massa value, then the tougher the armour of the subsystems respectively on the said vessel.

[Magus]

I don't mean weaker in armor, I mean weaker in field strength.

From the SY File:
addAbility(NewShipType,"CloakAbility",0,1,2000,4000,3,100,1,1000)

From the Carrier file:
addAbility(NewShipType,"CloakAbility",0,2,2000,4000,3,100,1,1000)

Note the difference in the second digit. That is the stealth strength of the cloaking. With the low stealth-strength of the SY generator, if the SY cloaks when you are next to it, or you know its posistion and go to it, it will reappear.


As for what Ilia was saying
From Carrier Cloak Generator Subsystem file:
NewSubSystemType.maxhealth = 20000
From MS Cloak Generator Subsystem file:
NewSubSystemType.maxhealth = 30000
(SY's use the MS module)

So while it is true that SY cloak gens have more armor, it has nothing to do with the mass or hitpoints of the host vessel. I believe that upgrades on a ship also effect all modules on with the same multiplier, so that would make MS modules capable of having much greater armor as the MS armor upgrades are so much better.

[sapi]

Did you even play the game longer than 5 minutes? Shock infantry (swordsman/clubman) and cavalry was the unit counter to archers. Archers countered pierce infantry, and pierce infantry countered cavalry.
this is getting irritating - try mass archers, im talking 200+

[Magus]

Now, I've never played Empire Earth, but I'm willing to believe 200+ archers fits the same qualifications as 9 BCs: Yes, they are well nigh uncounterable, and no, there should NEVER be a situation where they exist.

[sapi]

Now, I've never played Empire Earth, but I'm willing to believe 200+ archers fits the same qualifications as 9 BCs: Yes, they are well nigh uncounterable, and no, there should NEVER be a situation where they exist.

lol good point, but in ee archers [longbowmen especially] build very fast and you can easily afford 200+ at the start of a dm.

bcs, on the other hand...... damm expensive but boy do they rock!

[polaris408]

back to hw2:

That is the stealth strength of the cloaking. With the low stealth-strength of the SY generator, if the SY cloaks when you are next to it, or you know its posistion and go to it, it will reappear.
ok, so all you do is run your bombers right where you saw the sy last? seriously? i was wondering why they kept attacking my sy while i was hiding and cloaked.... does that affect the ships around it too? or simply the sy?

[Magus]

In order:
Yes
Yes
Yes*
No

*It's the field generated by the SY. If you have a carrier floating over the SY with a cloak gen, and turn it on, It will cloak itself, the SY, and any nearby vessels with a field strong enough to require a prox sensor or its ilk.

[sapi]

so whats the time on the cloaking; how long can u remain cloaked before your energy runs out?

because if u had 3 ships next to each other, each with a cloaking generator, u culd relay the ships and maintain constant cloaking

[polaris408]

yep, i do it all the time, esp in "survival mode"
i played a guy who kept his entire frig fleet under cloak so when we came after him with our lumbering bc's he suprised us.... it was hillarious....

[DivinerSage]

I say the best counter is get bombers or a large intie swarm and kill the SYs capship facility so it cant build a bc to begin with.



-Later-04'
DivinerSage

[Eiden]

the bc seems way overpowered to me. the fact that i BC [4000RU] can defeat 5 DDs [10000RU]! is overbalanced. the BC doesn't take longer to build than the DDs, and its certainly cheaper, so it makes me wonder why anyone in their right minds would build destroyers.


No. It's quite simple to issue a move order to your DDs placing them above or below the BC, out of it's firing arc. I've taken BCs out with single destroyers. 5 armour upgraded destroyers will do a number on a BC as well, but will lose if the BC is also upgraded.

Also, it's possible to have your first DD in something like 8 minutes, whereas the fastest you can get a BC is 13 (that's with 14 int defense in both cases). Bombers are the bane of a BCs existence.

Any time you move out of the firing arc of the hiig BC, you will kill it. I've killed a BC with 5 ICFs before by keeping them above it. 15-21 ICFs will kill a BC, esp if you only allow the BC use of 1 or none of it's cannons.

Interceptors can also disable the turrets and engines, but not as fast as upgraded bombers can.

Cloak + bombers + infiltrator or marine frigates can surprize a BC, even if it has escorts.

Mines will kill a BC in numbers. For some reason, very few people use mines. 1 Mine will do as much damage as a vaygr heavy missle. I would place them in dust clouds, or at the edge of your gravwell field.



Sure i know that the BC has to be researched [1800RU] and built at a shipyard [3500RU] but this money only needs to be spent once, and the shipyard is useful for other things too. I know this has been said many times before, but it still needs to be said again. maybe the BC should be 5k and the limit reduced to 2....
we just have to hope and wait for 1.2

Nah. Also, don't hope for a 1.2...

[Starfisher]

Heh, anyone remember back in the day when "BCs are invincible!!1" was simple met with "What the hell does he have a BC for? You should have kicked his ass already."

I guess times have changed...

[ilia1986]

No shit. Currently, I see BCs olnly in long drown out games where the 2 sides amass each other, instead of attacking..

[Eiden]

I see BCs regularly in team games. Usually one player tends to skip middle units for the BC. I've still seen plenty of 13 minute BCs happen. Meanwhile there is heavy interceptor and mid-unit fighting going on.

[sapi]

i agree that happens to me all the time - the two team mates of the bc player slow the enemy down just enough for the bc to get out, and then you're in trouble :nod: :nod: :!:

[Chopper415]

[QUOTE=Starfisher]Heh, anyone remember back in the day when "BCs are invincible!!1" was simple met with "What the hell does he have a BC for? You should have kicked his ass already."
QUOTE]


Thank you Star, that's what I've been thinking as I read through the anniversary 500th 'How To Counter BCs' thread in this forum.

Guys, check out some older threads. There are a few gems from the earlier days which exhaustively analyze in great depth (and from the basis of a lot more experience than I'm sensing here) the weaknesses and strengths of BC's.

In a nutshell, if you're playing the game right you shouldn't even be able to quote how much a BC costs, let alone have to work out complex strategies to defeat one with scouts and duct tape.

[ilia1986]

Hi Choppa!

Unforunatley, the number of ppl playing the game right has decreased, mainly becuase of the fact thatt the number of ppl who think that they play the game right, has increased appropriately...

[Chopper415]

I'm going to show an unusual degree of self restraint here Ilia.

[polaris408]

oh well. once again the search button may have saved 49 posts of restatement

[ilia1986]

I'm going to show an unusual degree of self restraint here Ilia.

Restrain? from what? :smash:

[sapi]

oh well. once again the search button may have saved 49 posts of restatement

search button? what search button? :) :) :) :!:

[polaris408]

youre being sarcastic, right?

[Starblade]

If he isn't, this would explain a lot about most of the new guys here...

[Chopper415]

:banghead:

[Pherdnut]

How to counter a BC:

Build units.

Have them shoot it until it dies.

If you lose, learn to build units faster.

[Chopper415]

Tehe.

Shhhh Pherd, don't give away ALL our secrets.

[Pherdnut]

Oh... and if that building faster thing doesn't work, try building different kinds of units almost or just as fast.

[polaris408]

great. there goes my master strategy. thanks a lot.

[ilia1986]

Tehe.

Shhhh Pherd, don't give away ALL our secrets.

Oh OMG OMG The 1337 club meets again... :yech:

[Tank Ripgrunt]

Ell Oh Ell

[Chopper415]

Oh... and if that building faster thing doesn't work, try building different kinds of units almost or just as fast.

Dude. Seriously. How do you expect us oldtimers to stay one step ahead of the newbies if you're going to go throwing all our secrets out there like that?

[ilia1986]

lol. The days where "newbys" were n00bs are long dead. Actually, AFAIK these are the old strats that dominate now...

[Pherdnut]

I'm sorry Chopper but it's time they knew. I'm lettin' it all out including this little gem:

Make sure you get lots of resources as fast as possible.

[Starblade]

Hahaha, armed with these strategies, there's no way I can lose! :flamer:


:p

[Pherdnut]

Once you've mastered all of these things you need to master tactics. I thought this one up after my first game and it's proven to be very effective:

Kill all of their stuff as fast as you can while taking fewer losses than they do. This is best done quickly so they don't get the chance to build more stuff.

I was suprised to discover how well this tactic works in another games as well. Although I'm having trouble adopting it to the Sims.

[Starblade]

"Although I'm having trouble adopting it to the Sims"

:rofl: Classic!

[FluxX]

Yes, cos like, dude, building fast is like my topest secret tactic!!!1!!1!

There are always little tricks that beat these things.

But numbers usually are the deciding factor.

[Starblade]

lol, I can imagine Pherdnut online in the Sims, smashing everything with his BCs.

[Chopper415]

I was suprised to discover how well this tactic works in another games as well. Although I'm having trouble adopting it to the Sims.


:rofl: OMG, I just spewed tea all over the keyboard.


However, I would point out that such high-level tactical concepts as 'collect resources as fast as possible' and 'kill the enemies quickly' are possibly a little beyond the average player. We don't want to overload anyone.

On the other hand, the day that I lose a game to anyone that isn't a bona fide HW2 oldtimer legend is the day I forswear technology altogether and start telling time by sundials. So go ahead and tell them whatever you want ;)


EDIT: I'm arrogant, but at least I'm willing to be proven wrong, so challenge me if you like ;)

[sapi]

yes i was being sarcastic.......................

[ilia1986]

The decision that the HW2 player has to decide is the following: Whether to hit thier Resources, or thier Production ships/modules. Since the only possible exception to this, is when the game is a normal one (that means that the resources are next to the production ships), than the rest is an issue of flanking, proper allocation of forces, and otherwise brilliant examples of teamwork. Then again, the option to make a sneak attack/diversion/flanking on thier Resources is almost always a valid one, even if the enemy is turtling.

[Eiden]

Against a fast, 13 minute BC, all you need is a bunch of gunships and bombers. Gunships will kill the fighter escorts, bombers will disable and destroy the BC quite quickly, at a far lower cost. Having maxed upgraded bombers and gunships if VERY possible by 13 minutes.

BC's are very stoppable. Probe early and probe often, watch for them being built, and adjust your build appropriately.

[ilia1986]

Eiden, Gunships arent required. and if the BC rusher is wise enough, hel use cloaking in time. Alternatively, you can bomb his cap mode from above, and chances are that hel be surprised, and wont use cloaking in time.. But alas, with good support in terms of intel from his allys, he will know about the bomber attack too... You can try to hyper a CV behind him, and then bomb him from there, but its too dangerous anyway.. Besides, you should be more focused on bringing down his economy (or prod ships if possible), rather than preventing him from getting a BC. As you said yourself, BCs are very stoppable. Inhibs, Hypersensors, and a lot of frigs, is all thats needed. So you will lose more ships than your opponent will. So what?

[Chopper415]

It's a lot cheaper and easier to build cloaking sensor probes than it is to build cloaking devices.

And the point is a valid one, if I see a blatant BC rusher I will focus on a few ints, then bombers and gunships. I will then bomb the relevant modules on his MS and SY while using the gunships to ravage his resource operations.

But let's assume for a moment that I don't. Perhaps I'm conducting an experiment, or it took me a while to finish off the BC rusher's teammates. Or maybe I'm just very drunk. Anyway, even if he does get his 13 minute BC with minimal escorts, he will still have to drive it manually into my base through my gravity well, mostly without engines or working weaponry due to my swarming bombers.

BC's on their own don't work. They are the top of the technical pyramid and are designed to be vulnerable if they are used out of the context of the flow of the game. Bring them out too early and they fall prey to the HW2 balancing system.

[forinax]

Infiltrator frigates

Put them high over the BC (or low under it) and order to capture. If you have 3+ one will surely dock on it on a dead point that is over or under it's ions turret. It will be impossible for the BC to shoot it down by itself.

If the BC has escorts, ya gotta kill them first.

If you can't the think of something else :D

[ilia1986]

I presume you are talking about a 1 vs 1 situation, as everything you described (especially the gunships) simply do not fit into a normal team game. At least from my experience. Since in 1 vs 1 situation, bC rushing is non existant, that makes me wonder about the whole point of your strategy. Harrasing RU operations is so much more efficient ( and much faster) with a hypertorp. Trying to bomb his cap mods on his prod ships, is only possible if you have fighter superiority, which is not always possible (and necessary) to achieve. As for your gunhisps, than they will be quickly smashed by a single torp.

[forinax]

BC rushing in 1v1 = suicide

[Pherdnut]

Eiden, 13 minute BC? Last I heard, people could get them in under 10 and the Vaygr builds faster than that. A lot of the modules you need to build can be done simultaneously.

In a medium cap game, a BC rush will never match the firepower or versitality of triple pumped frigates, however. Think of frigates, destroyers and BCs in terms of economy of hypering. A single DD or BC will match the firepower of several frigates and is much cheaper to hyper. However, you can max DDs and BCs out and never get the capital ship killing power of 21 ion frigates. Unless you are on a really large custom map, I recommend sticking with frigates. I prefer to save my DD and BC slots for captured DDs and BCs and concentrate on maintaining a full swarm and maxed out frigates.

A lot of new guys get a little freaked at the casualty rate of frigates. Don't. It's okay for them to die. If you're building from three or more build facilities (preferably ones that you've moved up to the front), losses can be replaced in no time and if you're losing frigates due to a new threat like a batch of laser vettes you didn't know about, you can quickly take advantage of the new openings in your ship cap to start putting out torp frigates. Likewise with flaks against a horde of bombers or marines against someone foolish enough to send in a couple unescorted DDs. Vaygr frigs are a little less versatile, and I typically provide swarms first to help fill in holes that my Hiigaran allies don't usually think about, but Heavy Missile Frigs and Infiltrators are the bain of any medium cap DD/BC fleet.

Now, for actual tactics, always attack Hiig BCs from above as they have a couple extra arbiter cannons on the bottom. If you have decent swarmers take out its engines first and then the upper ion cannon. With the engines and top ion out and your ships attacking from above, a Hiig BC is a worthless tin can.

What to disable on a Vaygr BC first depends on circumstances. If you're attacking with a fleet of frigates, just keep doing move attacks and wipe out the missile launcher ASAP since that's the only thing it will be able to target your moving frigs with. If you've got heavier ships nearby I'd go for the engines first so it can't aim the trinity cannon, but even speed upgraded destroyers can usually evade it. Even with the missile launcher intact, I'm guessing a couple capture frigates would have no problem capturing an unescorted Vaygr BC, especially with armor upgraded infiltrators.

Myself, I'm kinda lazy and don't usually bother disabling unless somehow they've managed to get multiple BCs into play. It doesn't take long for a horde of frigs to dispatch a lone BC.

[Eiden]

Eiden, 13 minute BC? Last I heard, people could get them in under 10 and the Vaygr builds faster than that. A lot of the modules you need to build can be done simultaneously.

13ish minutes if you're building fighters for defense at the same time. You can do it in 10 if you build nothing else. Even a 10 minute BC can be stopped tho, coz it won't have much cover vs your bombers.

[polaris408]

isnt it so funny that a few months ago many of us were complaining about the uselessness of ion frigs? weve come full circle.

[Pherdnut]

Yeah, well I think we all had the same perception of frigs for the first couple months. It was so hard to get used to the idea of frigs being disposable that nobody thought about the fact that they only cost a little bit more than corvettes to build.

[Chopper415]

Yeah, well I think we all had the same perception of frigs for the first couple months. It was so hard to get used to the idea of frigs being disposable that nobody thought about the fact that they only cost a little bit more than corvettes to build.

Good point. I know I only found my love of frigates when I came to the realisation that they are high-powered but low-armoured swarm vehicles.

And as to capturing BC's, I'm not such a fan of that idea. Anyone dumb enough to leave a BC vulnerable to capture is probably not skilled enough to have survived me long enough to get a BC out in the first place. Makes it a bit redundant.

[ilia1986]

Thats why there are allys (again, BC rushing doesnt exist in 1 vs 1 ) to do so.

[polaris408]

i remember while i was practicing the hyperplat strat aganst a expert comp (the comp can "see" you even when youre cloaked, they just cant attack you... so the element of suprise was not on my side), they ended up "bc rushing" me... i had just hypered back to saftey and rebuilt to max plats and bombers when they brought in 3 bc's and a decent escort. that was fun. too bad by the time one bc was dead the plats were gone and bombers decimated... good thing ive gotten better since...

[Eiden]

If the comp got a BC out against you when you hyperplatted, you are WAY too slow. By 5 minutes into the game, you should be cloaked right up against his MS double pumping gunplats and ionplats. You will destroy his MS before it's even possible to have completed his first BC. The comp has no clue how to defend against the hyperplat.... nor do most players on gamespy these days, it seems.

[ilia1986]

Hypersensors and inhibs are a must... then bombers wil be required to destroy the modules, with prox probes to reveal cloaking...

[polaris408]

Eiden, i was still practicing... otherwise it would have been a human opponent/victim and it was a 1v1... i actually got over there under 4 mins, but spent about 10-20 mins trying to fight off the freakin comp! he somehow built a sy (i was trying to target it, but it was just too far away) and as soon as the first bc came out i hypered. most of the time i spent on enemy lines i was combating those stupid dd's... they kill plats like nothing. well, hiig bc's kill em better, but thats not the point. so by the time i got back they'd finished a 2nd bc (kill the grav well took some time) and by the time i finished my baracading, theyd deployed their 3rd bc...

[Chopper415]

so by the time i got back they'd finished a 2nd bc (kill the grav well took some time) and by the time i finished my baracading, theyd deployed their 3rd bc...


So then you used the secret super-tactic that we discussed before, and won the game with interceptors and a few resourcers?

Right?

[polaris408]

yes my 20 ints took down 3 bc's, 20 frigs and 20 strike craft.
lol... nah, i ended up hypering off to a different res op and the stupid comp-cheaters tracked me down WITHOUT scouting- they just turned their entire armada and headed out for my new location. did i mention they didnt have hyper sensors? crazy
of course, by the time my 21 ions killed the 2nd bc, my comp crashed.....
so we may never know.........

[Scourge012]

Hey, everyone! Long-time :lurk: ,first time poster.

As I've said, I've watched this forum for some time now, and I've played MP since December and stopped in June (I'm in college and have lost my broadband connection going home :-( ). I've only played 2 open games where I didn't say "No Experts" so, I've seen some of you guys around, but I don't think I've ever challenged you. Therefore, my advice may be a little skewed.

With that said:

The key to HW2 fleet building is *drumroll* BALANCING. Like many players have said, most of your anti-BC units (Ion Frigs, Bombers and the like) should already be in play by the time it comes out. No player is super-human and can watch each of his opponents while simultaneously commanding his fleet, queueing research, managing resource patches, and playing the ever-present game of keeping your scouts just out of enemy sensor range.

So, what you do is be aware of possible strategies and actively build counters to them even if you don't necessarily see your opponents going for it.

Here are some tips I use in most of my games beyond basic recon to counter BCs:

1. Always build Bombers. I don't know why many newbs shy away from these puppies--they are possibly the most versatile unit in the game. They can bomb mods, kill frigs with alarming speed and keep BCs from rolling out in the first place by hitting cap facs, not to mention that 8 squads can rape an unescorted BC (which unfortunately, is the most common type of BC).

Even if you're distracted they can at least make a suicide pass at the engines (assuming BC is properly escorted) so you can get some heavy hitters out.

2. Always have Gravwells and Proxes--these just prevent nasty surprises in general.

3. Maintain your fighter force throughout the game, and most importantly, keep them wherever you have ships. They can be an effective screen against corvs and they kill bombers trying to get at your BCs and other caps.

If you do these three things you will at least stand a fighting chance against BCs and pretty much anything else.

[Chopper415]

No player is super-human and can watch each of his opponents while simultaneously commanding his fleet, queueing research, managing resource patches, and playing the ever-present game of keeping your scouts just out of enemy sensor range.



I beg to differ.

However, the rest of what you say is accurate, not skewed.

[Scourge012]

I beg to differ.

However, the rest of what you say is accurate, not skewed.


*phew* That's good. I almost thought I would end up being flamed.

Although, I admit to being easily distractible. Can't tell you how many times an UNCLOAKED BC has snuck in under my not-so-diligent sensor manager, LOL. :Slap:

Back to the topic, if you are completely caught with your pants down, you could try attacking a BC from both front and back with less capable units such as Flak/Assault Frigs. At least it will buy you time and if you move the ones attacking the front around enough you might even be able to kill it--but I wouldn't count on it.

I can't stress enough--build a balanced fleet from the out-set and you'll be able to pretty much be able to handle it.

[polaris408]

so keep your pants on or get screwed. plain and simple.
although, maybe you SHOULD be screwed if you let your guard down like that....

[ilia1986]

No player is super-human and can watch each of his opponents while simultaneously commanding his fleet, queueing research, managing resource patches, and playing the ever-present game of keeping your scouts just out of enemy sensor range.


Ever played 2 vs 2 vs 2? Makes yo do all that, you know...
:smash:

[Rebel]

The fact is, yes, BCs are very powerful - but they're NOT invincible. Battlecruisers have the most identifiable fireing arcs in the game. As previously stated, moving your ship around a BC changes the amount of damage you can do to it. Secondly, enough raw firepower, even without any nice maneuvering, is enough to kill a BC. Even three BCs can have problems against a full fleet of Ion frigs or HMFs backed with destroyers.

The main way to defeat a BC is to take steps to make it safe to destroy. Take out the engines and modules ASAP, then destroy its heavy weaponry. Finally, keep light fire on the weaponry at all times while your fleet pounds the crap out of it. BCs are easy to defeat in many situations because people don't know how to use them.

Finally, when you see a BC lumbering towards you long before you're ready to handle it, remember, DON'T PANIC (H2G2). Unless you're truly miserable at Homeworld or have recently had your fleet decimated by an enemy assault, you should be able to defeat one ship... Unless of course you decided to max out on flak frigates and platforms, in which case you're officially fucked. Oh well...

[Scourge012]

Ever played 2 vs 2 vs 2? Makes yo do all that, you know...
:smash:

I think you guys kinda misunderstood what I meant. I meant doing all those things AT THE SAME TIME ON YOUR OWN.

Sure you could watch your opponents in the Sensor Manager while queueing research, or ordering Harvesters to another patch, but what about targeting mods on a MS and distracting his plats, while queueing Destroyer Armor/Speed research in with your Lvl 2 Interceptors--uh-oh since you were momentarily out of Sensors to target mods and plats, a BC has teleported to the edge of your gravwell with a full compliment of flak frigs--no matter back to sensor manager to order your defense fleet to attack that new threat, but while you were doing that another player from the enemy team has attached harvesters and almost fully repaired the MS you just finished targeting because you were busy for 30secs in your home qudrant defending things and evacuating your own resource op...

See what I mean? You would need teammates to help you manage all that. I find that most players (including myself) can monitor two players but when it gets to three, a division of labor needs to set in. Of course, that's the whole point of a team, but that's a different topic.

[GDS_Starfury]

communication and manuver, quite simple really

[Scourge012]

You just send in a few words what it took me entire posts to say...

Back on topic:

Minelayers are also useful for dealing with BCs. I think I've seen something similar to this already:

Place mines inside the gravwell field near the edge. It's important that they are inside, because if the BC hypers in on top of them the mines will detonate and not cause any damage because the BC is still in hyper-invulnerability mode.

While you see the BC hypering in, go ahead and scuttle or dock the minelayer--this way there will be no mysterious solitary "corvette" symbol read out in the sensors manager that could indicate a minefield.

The poor doofus will then drive his BC thru the minefield to get at his target...causing great damage.

Of course, this takes incredible skill to do as you have to be extremely aware of what is going on, as well as the spot the BC will most likely be hypering from in order to properly place your mines.

[polaris408]

i would think by the time he sees the mines and their corvs, they'd have already been through the field...

[Scourge012]

I think it depends on what sensors they have on the BC and the scouting they did before. Sometimes people just drive thru, other times the guy drives over a few Km then passes thru the gravwell unharmed.

I dock mine just to be sure, though. Better safe than Ion fodder, I always say.

Edited for clarity.

[NewAgeOfPower]

bcs are strong almost invincible IF backed up with torps and flaks i once got a bc out in less then 10 mins then a DD in (bout half a KM) in my grav well i had cloaks on ms AND SY overlapping i started MS cloak gen and waited as soon as the DD got in range my bc decloaked and opened fire he was like WTF HOW U GET A BC SO FASST MUST BE HAX/CHEATS (lol poor n00b) then my ally hypered torps (ALOT my all must have learned from pakatu maybe former pakatu member) in and i hypered in 2 bcs and a few flaksand then my ally hypered in a carrier with grav well b4 they hypered away was a total slaughter

[Eiden]

You can get a BC out in less than 10 minutes if you either have a 10k start, or build absolutely nothing else except the "ideal" amount of collectors and the modules you need for BC r&d. In short, your enemies were morons.

[Nurizeko]

upgraded bomber swarm hitting the engines first, then the turrents, and then everything after that, send in a part of your fleet (best a few des. with strike support) and whats left of the bombers to finish it off, but without its sub-systems a BC is fairly easy pickings for the bomber swarm, aslong as you re-enforce with more bombers to replace ur lossed 1's.

also i have to say if your getting attacked by a small group of BC's and u havnt got any or the enemy BC's are pretty much in your base, its just about that time and place to say "hey...i know when im beat, so ill just fight on till the end, and if im lucky, i can get my carrier or some other production ship away to prolong the game for a while longer" but in most cases u've lost and tis just a waiting game, **** happens, live with it.

BUT, i have been severly out-numbered before, 3 on 1, where i only had a mothership, and a BC, and the enemy had too many BC's for any sort of real comeback.....so i hypered the BC and mothership tyo seperate areas of the map *it was hyperspace arean so the size was a good help* and waited....they never did find me, and they all left the game, i won, so the message behind that short lile story?.

its not ALWAYS about who has the bigger fleet and most RU...sometimes, its just a case of strategy, and in that example, patients and a stubborness not to loose.

but yeah, bomber swarms can deal with a BC, taking out sub-systems, 2 BC's is a streach, all u can do is disable the first, disable the second, and send what u have to finish them off before repairs.