questions about SM chapter "Black dragons".

[Havock]

ok, so i read something about it (story and all that) and i like the fluff they have.

however, i read that they are part of the "cursed founding" or something, those chapters have some pro's and con's, right?
could someone point me in the right direction?

they seem like a nice force to start with, requires some converting (to get the blade-like stuff on the arms), and although i am a complete nebie on 40k, I don't wan't to start with the standard "ultramarines" or CSM chapter.

[Chaos Lord]

'cursed founding' i think means they were tainted with chaos or something like that,
to me they sound like a cross between a SM chapter and dark eldar...
what is your colour scheme for them?

it is best to start off with your first 2 troops choice's and your first HQ choice
at least with that you can practice a bit with them

[Havock]

well, they are...black :p

but there was some rule witht he cursed foundings that, while they have their own unqiue abilities, they cannot use heavy armor or something like that.

[Chaos Lord]

i thought they would be black at first then i thought
"they are called black dragons, so they maybe firey orange with black trims or somthing"

[KingKupo]

to me they sound like a cross between a SM chapter and dark eldar...

Eh...

I'm amazed how you can view them as a mix between SM and dark skinnies.

And what's wrong with UM or standard CSM anyways?

anyways...

The black dragons are a cursed founding wich implies they are a founding that has genetical flaws and/or specific abilitys that can't be really explained.They grow bony crests on their heads and blades from their arms.

-They get 2 extra units, Cursed Knights(veterans with termy honours and some extra rules) and abominations.

-they have a restriction on razorbacks(only HQs and assault sqauds can ride them). and a 0-1 restriction on all tanks.

-They also cost more on several occasions. as in the case of the black dragons their assault sqauds cost +5 points wich on a to hit roll of 6 is an automatic unsavable wound.

But if you really want to be different, i suggest you play legion of the damned. ALL units get deepstrike and a 6+ invulnerable save for +5 per model and +10 per dread. they lso can set up anywhere except the enemy's deployment zone

[Random Person]

Imperial Fists

[Sir Guppy]

Imperial Fists

eh that makes little sense, fists a normal founding and your post is to short to be actually making a comment.

cursed foundings are just chapters which have genetic flaws, some have been destoryed and wiped out, others are just sorta hidden.

anyway i think you can find rules for all the cursed foundings in a White Dwarf or Index Astartes (spelling?)

[Dimension]

http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/bdragons.html

found this link on the portent forums.

the rules for playing them can be found in White Dwarf 279 apparently.

[Havock]

Eh...

I'm amazed how you can view them as a mix between SM and dark skinnies.

And what's wrong with UM or standard CSM anyways?

anyways...

The black dragons are a cursed founding wich implies they are a founding that has genetical flaws and/or specific abilitys that can't be really explained.They grow bony crests on their heads and blades from their arms.

-They get 2 extra units, Cursed Knights(veterans with termy honours and some extra rules) and abominations.

-they have a restriction on razorbacks(only HQs and assault sqauds can ride them). and a 0-1 restriction on all tanks.

-They also cost more on several occasions. as in the case of the black dragons their assault sqauds cost +5 points wich on a to hit roll of 6 is an automatic unsavable wound.

But if you really want to be different, i suggest you play legion of the damned. ALL units get deepstrike and a 6+ invulnerable save for +5 per model and +10 per dread. they lso can set up anywhere except the enemy's deployment zone

legion of the damned had my attention as well.
UM: I don't like blue thát much.
CSM: too much players in that one already :p

anyway, thanks for the intel.
and for the tank restriction, does that mean they can only use 1 tank? (or none)

[Athair]

2004 Chapter Approved has all the rules for the Cursed Foundings. I like the Legion of the Damned, as they get the 6+ Invulnerable save and get to deep strike all units (including tanks) BEFORE the game starts. You can also use Cursed Founding Chapters as allies to any Space Marine army which draws ALL of its rules from Codex:Space Marines (no Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Wolf Guard, etc)

[Ramrod]

legion of the damned are the coolest, imo. i had a squad of them.

but i've always had a problem with space marines. everybody plays them (including me).

its hard to lose when you're a space marine. less fun. so i went tau and IG (drop troops for the IG, so i can still deep strike every single unit).

[Havock]

IG is pretty cool too, but it is one of the more expensive armies, and i have at it's best 100€ to spend.
^. poor student.

I am not aiming at a big army, I'll just be going for a smaller army for now, gotta start somewhere huh :)

anyway, at first, i was thinking about daemonhunters, but they were very "limited" (though GK's are badass), and their models are considered highly detailed, which is nice, but tough :p

then i started to look at the cursed foundings (someone mentioned the black dragon chapter ere and their swiss-knife-like appearance).
but until i decide to actually start it all, I am still open to suggestions :)

I like converting, i can tell that already :p

how i know that?
well, until my....12th/14th i was into that plastic scale-model building (tanks and aircraft mainly), and later on, i started to modify the models i built back then.
i like(d) it.

[Deathwing]

Havock: Where are you from? Okay, obviously from Europe ( 100 €).

If you're from Germany, get the In Nomine Imperatoris III book. I don't know how this book is called elsewhere (Chapter Approved ??? )There are all rules for the cursed founding in it, including Black Dargons and LOTD.

[Havock]

Havock: Where are you from? Okay, obviously from Europe ( 100 €).

If you're from Germany, get the In Nomine Imperatoris III book. I don't know how this book is called elsewhere (Chapter Approved ??? )There are all rules for the cursed founding in it, including Black Dargons and LOTD.

holland, that is :)

[Deathwing]

Hmmmm... I don't know, is the book also called In Nomine Imperatoris? If yes, it's the third book. Chapter Approved, I guess, will be either the 2003, or the 2004 issue.

Includes rules for the following chapters:

- Black Dragons
- Minotaurs
- Legion of the Damned ( formerly known as Fire Hawks )
- Lamenters
- Flame Falcons
- Sons of Antaeus

[Havock]

Hmmmm... I don't know, is the book also called In Nomine Imperatoris? If yes, it's the third book. Chapter Approved, I guess, will be either the 2003, or the 2004 issue.

Includes rules for the following chapters:

- Black Dragons
- Minotaurs
- Legion of the Damned ( formerly known as Fire Hawks )
- Lamenters
- Flame Falcons
- Sons of Antaeus

hmm, i only took a quick skim rhrough the chapter approved 2 weeks ago.

but just for good record, they are not allowed to have (much) heavy material (as in: tanks) on the battlefield, correct?

[KingKupo]

i've found no mention of wether the 0-1 restriction is for every tank, so i suppose you can have 1 of each(it isn't specifically mentioned so you're not cheating i i'm wrong), feel free to correct me on this matter. Another thing i left out where that they don't have the "and they shall know no fear" and " deploy by drop pods" rules, They also can't take allies. they also have some psychic power that replaces "smite" that forces morale check on all units with a model in 12.(fearless and stubborn are immune to it)

[Havock]

i've found no mention of wether the 0-1 restriction is for every tank, so i suppose you can have 1 of each(it isn't specifically mentioned so you're not cheating i i'm wrong), feel free to correct me on this matter. Another thing i left out where that they don't have the "and they shall know no fear" and "drop pods" rules, They also can't take allies. they also have some psychic power that replaces "smite" that forces morale check on all units with a model in 12.(fearless and stubborn are immune to it)

what does the "and they shall know no fear rule" mean?
are black dragons sometimes running off? :p

[Dimension]

what would be the reasoning behind the fact that Black Dragons don't have ATSKNF? sounds kinda weird. a marine with nasty additional ccw's who's more likely to run away than any given other marine.

[Havock]

what would be the reasoning behind the fact that Black Dragons don't have ATSKNF? sounds kinda weird. a marine with nasty additional ccw's who's more likely to run away than any given other marine.

perhaps it's just called otherwise?

[Deathwing]

Just checked the book and got this information:

Chapters of the Cursed founding may have: 0-1 Land Raider; 0-1 Predator Annihilator; 0-1 Predator Destructor; 0-1 Vindicator; 0-1 Whirlwind.
0-1 Termie squad; 0-1 Termie assault squad; 0-1 Bike squad.
Chapters of the Cursed founding may not choose a Razorback as a transport option.

The chapters don't have the special rule ATSKNF, but they have other special rules.
( I only got the german book, so I don't know the english names for the single rules. Sorry)
But if it helps ( for you are from Holland ) f.e. the Minotaurs chapter has a special rule "Berserker", which makes them "furchtlos"( no morale test, no holding them down)

Oops, forgot to mention about the tanks: Yes, you can have one of these tanks each, not only one of them all per army.

[KingKupo]

actually, my WD says the cursed founding can take Razorbacks but only for a few units. They can't take scouts neither tough. AS for they "and they shall know no fear" rule, it states that SM automatically regroup even when under 50%.

and Furchtlos means fearless(yes i am from the Dutch part of my country)

[Athair]

The Cursed Founding don't have ATSKNF, so they will not automatically regroup after a fall back, and can't regroup below 50%.

[Havock]

it's a damn shame that the landraider is so damn expensive compared to a rhino.
(talking about bucks here :p)

Is the rhino going to be any worth in 4th edition?

[Exetus]

No, the 0-1 Rule is for ALL TANKS OTHER THAN TRANSPORTS. I play Flesh Tearers and am quite familira with this rule. What that is saying is you can have as many Razorbacks or Rhinos (unless you have a restriction there) as you want, but can only field one actual tank such as a Predator, Land Raider or Whirlwind. It's not that bad for armies like th Black Dragons because they are an assault force. Other armies are at a slight disadvantage.

Also, while the Legion of the Damned are, by far, the coolest they also have the chacne to all simply disappear from the battlefield leaving you without an army in turn 3 which sucks.

[KingKupo]

You're wrong on that matter exetus. If you only field Legion of the Damned they will not dissapear. That rule only aplies to taking them as allies.

And no SM army can be at a disadvantage without tanks. There are plenty of alternatives.

[Havock]

You're wrong on that matter exetus. If you only field Legion of the Damned they will not dissapear. That rule only aplies to taking them as allies.

And no SM army can be at a disadvantage without tanks. There are plenty of alternatives.

like taking a dreadnaught with nasty long-range weaponry?

[Exetus]

Thanks for correcting me on the matter of the LoD army. I actually didn't know that and probably overlooked it from prior experience of using them as an allied squad. Much appreciated. As for the tank rule... well we've had GW clear that up a few times... never said anything about an ally (like an inquisitor in a Prometheus) not being able to have a tank as a transport though... heheheh.

[Mushu]

The black dragons were a curse founding and they had a defect in their gene seeds that caused several problems during their growth as neophyetes. Not all marines suffer from this but it is a poss like the black rage in blood angels

Several things happen to them. The most obvious of these is the large blade-like bones that grow from their fore arms and fore heads. the dragons then coat these in adamantium and file them razor sharp. They collect into assault squad and used as shock troops. (similar to death company)

[Aajz Solari]

'cursed founding' i think means they were tainted with chaos or something like that,
to me they sound like a cross between a SM chapter and dark eldar...
what is your colour scheme for them?

it is best to start off with your first 2 troops choice's and your first HQ choice
at least with that you can practice a bit with them

haha i take that as a :jk:
The Black Dragons have an abnormal genetic failure , their ossmodula goes kinda crazy (1 of 19 implants of a space marine)
Well the Ossmodula should do that

"This small organ has a complex function within the body of a Space Marine. It monitors and secretes hormones affecting epiphiseal fusion and ossification of the skeleton while at the same time, engineered hormones encourage the forming bones to absorb ceramic based chemicals administered in the Marine's diet. Two years following implantation, the long-bones will have strengthened considerably and there will have been a general increase in the size of the recipient's skeleton. Extreme ossification of the chest cavity caused by growth of ribs forming a solid mass of inter-laced bone plates provides a Space Marine with an armoured layer to protect his secondary heart and lungs.

and thats what the Black Dragon ossmodula does ^^

But the Ossmodula zygote of the Black Dragons functions in an abnormal way causing the growth of bony crests on the head, and blade-like protuberances from the forearm and elbow. Like the Death Company of the Blood Angels, warriors inflicted with such abnormal developments are formed into a separate fighting unit. Known as the Dragon Claws

Well the Dragon Claws are their Assault Marines (the guys with the jump packs) so , as far as i can remember you are able to buy for them such mutations ,well i dont remember the rule exactly but i hope that helped :)