My Undefeated Templars.

[Fend]

Templars must be the uberest army, cause ive never lost. the only battle i "have" lost was when me and my freinds decided to battle and i said i could take them "both" on. Ofcourse, that turned out bad for me :/ Necrons and Tau are an Unholy combination.

THE ARMY (without wargear other than on the minitures) ---

The emporers champion - 105 (isnt a HQ choice)

High Marshal - 60 (+ power weapon + Bolt pistol) - 76

Command squad - 5 Marines + Hand weapons + apothicary- 90

RAZORBACK - 70 + twin lascannons 20 - 90

Chaplain - "Oxzavior" 70 (+ Jump pack 20) - 90

6 Terminators - Assault cannon - heavy flamer - 282

Dreadnought - Assault cannon - heavy flamer - 115

5 Marines - Lascannon - 90

6 marines - Flamer 6 - 96
RAZORBACK - Twin Las cannons - 90

10 Marines - Meltagun - Missile Launcher - 170

10 Marines - Meltagun - Missile Launcher - 170

Land Raider - 250

Predator destructor - 100 + Hvy BS = 110

Vindicator - 120

Attack Bike with Multimelta = 65

6 Assault Marines = 150 + Plasma pistol + Power weapon- 165

6 Assault Marines = 150 + Plasma pistol + Power Fist - 170

SPARE UNITS

I can Swap the Attack bike with a biker squad of...
3 bikers - 105

TOTAL : 2344

its fully painted belive it or not. so. whatcha all think?

[Anomalie]

Interesting.. O_o :P No land raider crusader? Are troop squads CC+bolt pistol or bolters?

[Kaela-M-Khaine]

sure, thats what you have in your army, but make a tournament list at 1850 and see how you prevail. At 2300 pts it looks like a good list but then again its 2300 pts. Almost anybody can field something that deadly. make an 1850 list then i'll critique it.

[Fend]

i usually play a 1500 point. In that i take a ...

Chaplain with jet pack. 2 groups of assault marines power weapon and Plasma pistol in each. 2 squads of 6 marines with a flamer / melta gun mounted in Razorbacks. 5 Terminators in a Landraider (assault cannon / heavy flamer inclusive). the emporers champion. and if i have points left id take my Vindicator and if i had yet more left over points id take a squad of initiates with a Lascannon to provide fire support.

no all my marines are fire support. my assault marines and terminators do most of the fighting. when the marines are needed i send them in as meat.

i couldnt be bothered writeing up a 1500 point army list but im sure the small army above should fit the peice just nicely.

[Exetus]

What vows do you choose as that is really what would make this army hard. By the way, BTs have been considered the cheesiest SM army since their rules came out for Armageddon III. Not everyone plays them that way, but they have the most potential for abuse.

[Fend]

mm yeah i agree. but i was collecting them before armageddon. thats why i dont have any CC marines or a Landraider crusader.

i take that vow that makes them hit on a 3 in combat , this is so they can put up a fight against my freinds necrons and chaos and have the advantage. against Nids, i take the same vow (i hate those high ws geanstealers)

I never take the 6+ invunrable save vow :/

[Aragaith]

mm yeah i agree. but i was collecting them before armageddon. thats why i dont have any CC marines or a Landraider crusader.

i take that vow that makes them hit on a 3 in combat , this is so they can put up a fight against my freinds necrons and chaos and have the advantage. against Nids, i take the same vow (i hate those high ws geanstealers)

I never take the 6+ invunrable save vow :/


remember to read all of that vow, its not just hit on 3+ in close combat, if a squad is in range of enemy during assault phase they have to assault it, and if they fry those enemies they have to sweeping advance if possible...which means yes your hitting on 3+ but you also can get blown to crap against shooty armies.

i tend to take the 6+ cause i never hide my guys in cover anyways and against plasma cannon dev squads it works wonders saving those 2 or 3 guys.

[Captain Zog]

No neophytes then?

You should at least have a few so its a real BT army

[Aragaith]

but why should we send the future of our crusade into battles to die before they are a full fledged initiate?

[Tempest Storm]

Because they won't be changing anytime soon in your army. ;)


Not to mention a 15 man Bolt Pistol + CCW squad can really rip through an enemy...

[Captain Zog]

but why should we send the future of our crusade into battles to die before they are a full fledged initiate?

Because that's what the BTs do

[Evan_gelion]

but why should we send the future of our crusade into battles to die before they are a full fledged initiate?

Because A. If they died in the first place they were not fit to be Space Marines and would only weaken the Gene Seed.

And B. What are you, a nursemaid, man!? How will they ever hope to advance unless they taste battle!?

Seriously, that's HOW Space Marines do it. They send their initiates into battle because they have to see if they're up to snuff. If they DON'T, who knows what might happen. A Space Marine who is so unwilling to have his troops die that he refuses to send them is a bad Space Marine.

[Erik Frostmane]

What vows do you choose as that is really what would make this army hard. By the way, BTs have been considered the cheesiest SM army since their rules came out for Armageddon III. Not everyone plays them that way, but they have the most potential for abuse.

Black Templars are considered cheesy because they have potential for abuse. So does every other list. After gaming for six years, I've come to learn that there is no such thing as cheesy. But all armies can be abused. The Black Templars army list cannot even compare to the Chaos Space Marines list, though.

On a different note, players that have played for more than a couple of years know how to beat Space Marines. Why is that? Because most newbies play Space Marines. Newbies lack experience. Why do newbies use Space Marines? The models are cool, expensive points-wise (so you don't have to paint too many) and they appear to have superior stats.

Just my two cents...

[Exetus]

Black Templars are considered cheesy because they have potential for abuse. So does every other list. After gaming for six years, I've come to learn that there is no such thing as cheesy. But all armies can be abused. The Black Templars army list cannot even compare to the Chaos Space Marines list, though.



Never said that other lists DON'T have the potential for abuse. What I SHOULD have said, however, was that among Space Marine armies, they have the most potential for abuse, what with the Rhino Rush no longer a viable option for Blood Angels with the vehicle rules and such... 30" assault move in one turn was crazy...

And I never said I haven't or can't beat the BTs with my Eldar or Tau or DH armies, just that they have a lot of potential for for Fromunda...

[Erik Frostmane]

Exetus wrote:
Never said that other lists DON'T have the potential for abuse. What I SHOULD have said, however, was that among Space Marine armies, they have the most potential for abuse, what with the Rhino Rush no longer a viable option for Blood Angels with the
vehicle rules and such... 30" assault move in one turn was crazy...

End quote.

Obviously, I cannot change your mind about this and you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. However, in my opinion the Black Templars edge in close combat is balanced out by their lack of firepower, i.e. no Devastators, no Scouts with sniper rifles etc. Maybe not enough, though?

You mentioned the new trial rules for vehicles. Do you still feel that of all the Space Marine armies the Black Templars have most potential for abuse? I mean, there is no such thing as Rhino-rush anymore (thank the Gods!). What about the vows? Most of them have distinct advantages and drawbacks. You feel they are "cheesy"?

- Frostmane

[Fend]

actually i find my templars to be the "anti-templars" they combine the Vows of the templars with the fire power of any other spacemarine army :/ I played a 3 way battle the other day useing my marines as another chapter (white consuls for a change) and found devastors to be useful. I WISH so much i could have them in my normal army of Templars. but no, were not allowed. we cant have librarians either. and they way templars play (you need sum numbers in your squads) Terminators are discouraged. Templars are not cheesy, they are just unique.

[Erik Frostmane]

Fend wrote: "actually i find my templars to be the "anti-templars" they combine the Vows of the templars with the fire power of any other spacemarine army :/ I played a 3 way battle the other day useing my marines as another chapter (white consuls for a change) and found devastors to be useful. I WISH so much i could have them in my normal army of Templars. but no, were not allowed. we cant have librarians either. and they way templars play (you need sum numbers in your squads) Terminators are discouraged. Templars are not cheesy, they are just unique."

And I thought I was the only one! I too play Black Templars like that. After a few rounds of well-directed fire, I finish off the intended enemy units with a charge into their midst.

Anywho, there are some disadvantages to the Black Templars. Fend mentioned some of the most obvious. Most people think they are cheesy because they seem some straightforward: Pick a vow (for free; that's an outrage!), put your squads in transports and rush. And I agree, that is fairly weak. But also therefore easy to counter! Most veterans I've played against have developed tactics for countering the infamous Rhino-rush. As such, I believe the Rhino-rush is a newbie-thing and a newbie-problem and/or mistake.

- Frostmane

[Exetus]

Well, the infamous Rhino-rush was conceived by BA players looking for an advantage and with that, they got it. The fact that Black Templars benefitted from it as well probably is what upset most other BA/successor players.

No Vet Sgts - Ok, this has its ups and downs, but essentially since you don't fall back, most of your leadership tests don't mean much anyways 'cept for pinning and the likes. So instead, you get to give an Initiate a power weapon and he can only be targeted by characters since it becomes a unit upgrade.

Balance that with mixed squads to give you 15 troops instead of 10 and you actually have a decent chance of not being outnumbered and potentially outnumbering your enemy. I don't see why having the Veteran Sgt is THAT bad because you make up for it except in the leadership and +1 attack area.

Assault Squads - Two "hidden" power weapons and stormshields for all my friends giving an invulnerable save... so you lose an extra attack, still giving 2 on the charge with the appropriate vow to create ultimate misery...

Righteous Zeal - You can't fall back but advance? If that doesn't aid an assault oriented army, I don't know what does. Because of this, they can't be crossfired and wiped out that way. Plus, any unit you come into contact with while being zealots, allow you to count as charging them... so not only do you not fall back when you fail the break test, you get to sweeping advance... (call me crazy but that just doesn't seem fair).

A lot of people complain about having to take a mandatory Emperor's Champion... that's really not THAT bad. He doesn't take up anything other than points and can potentially ruin anyone's day by calling out your characters. In smaller games, this is a detractor, but anything 1850 and up and you're golden.

-VOWS (I'm working off of memory, so please let me know what I get wrong)
Accept Any Challenge - Black Templars must advance, if they can do so, following a close combat (cept termies) and they hit on 3+. Well seeing as it's an assaulting army, that really doesn't hurt now, does it? Advancing doesn't mean charging straight ahead, so you could possibly move into cover so long as it's in front of you. The opponent gets the equivalent of a +1 to initiative... thus BT may strike last or simo instead of first againt an army with lesser inititave.

Pure of Mind - psyker present, get a free move towards the opposition

Uphold Honor (dunno if that's right)- 6+ invulnerable save for everyone? Not too shabby if you're playing TAU.

Suffer not the Unlcean - I think this is where you get a +1 on your "to wound" rolls... not too bad, but no bonuses conferred... still nice to have.



OK, enough about the stuff I think is a little too good maybe and some detractors...
Iron Halo goes to EC... not too bad, never use one anyways because my HQ is a Chaplain
No Vet Sgts - so instead you get a Unit power weapon so he can't be singled out... oh, a -1 for LD... they're Marines, they're still better than 99% of all other basic troops.
No Devs - Ok, this can hurt but only if you plan on using a shooty army which BT are not. You can fix this with a tank or two.

I just don't see how any other SM army has this many advantages and so few disadvantages... hell, I play a Chapter with even MORE disadvantages than most Chapters...

[Erik Frostmane]

Thanks for a great post, Exedus. You have obviously done your homework. Now, all I have to do is come up with a decent reply. *smiles*

Here goes...

As mentioned, Rhino-rush can be countered. The solution is unfortunately as boring as the Rhino-rush "tactic": Stock up with heavy weapons and take out those transports. Use decoy units, often cheap troops to lure the rushing army into ambushes etc. On a more personal note, I dislike the Rhino-rush as much as anyone, really. All my Warhammer armies (both fantasy and 40k) are fairly anti-stereotypical, but that's because I like to theme my armies. Anyways, I digress.

Regarding Veteran Sergeants, you have basically hit the pros/cons on the head. I'll grant you that.

When it comes to Black Templar Assault Squads, they have a few options that most Space Marine armies don't have, i.e. the power weapons/fist/stormshields. But you still have to cough up the points for them! Two power weapons equals +20 points to an already expensive unit. A unit that'll draw vast amounts of fire should they expose themselves. If you give them power fists it'll cost you +30 points. Ugh. Nevertheless, I do see your point.

Righteous Zeal is a double-edged sword. Yes, the obvious advantage is the move forward, hack the enemies to pieces in a sweeping advance schtick. However, since it is a sweeping advance, the enemy can still shoot at them, often at point-blank range. Nasty stuff, even for Space Marines. Also, many a time have I found my troops lured into a trap after sprinting off, eager to get to grips with their foes. That requires a little bit of distance to pull off, but I presume we all play on 4' x 8' tables, right? *grin* Righteous Zeal can be taken advantage of by a cunning general. By "leading" the Templars into fights they cannot win, for example. They rush towards the closest enemy unit, be it infantry or vehicle. Force them to fight a Dreadnought/Wraithlord/Defiler, troops who excel even more in close combat than the Templars (Chosen/Terminators/Eldar Aspect Warriors), a vehicle with heavy armor they can't pierce (Leman Russ front/Land Raider/Chimera) etc. Righteous Zeal gives the opponent an excellent opportunity to defeat the Templars piecemeal.

You pretty much said what needs to be said about the mandatory Emperor's Champion, so I'll skip that part.

Vows. This is where the going gets tough.

Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds: This is sort of a Khornate Blood Rage-light. You have to make sweeping advances, must charge enemy units within range etc. And you always hit on a 3+ regardless of the enemy's WS. Again, force the Templars to charge units they cannot defeat, or at least tie them up with a large yet cheap unit, i.e. Grots. This is of course a vow that is very handy, I won't deny that. Probably the vow I've used the most.

Uphold The Honor Of The Emperor: 6+ Invulnerability save for all models, except vehicles and Neophytes. Sounds great, doesn't it? But the offset is that Templars may not count cover for saving throws or when assaulted. Oh, not so good. Again, advantages and disadvantages.

Suffer Not The Unclean To Live: Templars add 1+ to their roll to Wound. A roll of 1 always fails. This reduces their Initiative by -1, usually down to 3, which is not good obviously.

Be Pure In Mind, Body and Soul: This is the one where the Templars get a free move before their first turn. This can be a major advantage, but it requires an enemy psyker to be on the table. Psykers can be held in reserve and thus negating the effects of the vow. Also, the distance moved is random, so any battle line is effectively ruined and it could mess up an entire plan. However, this vow has probably faintest disadvantage of the four. And I know how annoying it can be, since I've been on the receiving end of such a move many times. My poor Tau/Dark Eldar/Orks never saw it coming... *sniff*

One last thing I wanted to comment was the fact that you call Black Templars a non-shooty army. That isn't necessarily correct as both my Black Templar armies are as shooty as a Dark Angel army. The army list does encourage close combat, but it doesn't make them a non-shooty army. Space Marines excel in close quarter firefights and Initiates can take bolters just like any other Space Marine. So, a compromise might be that they are assault-oriented? *smile* I guess we have a different view of the Black Templars? Maybe we'll leave it at that.

Anyway, Exedus. You've been quite the sport in this little discussion and a gentleman as well. Hope to debate you some other time as well, and I look forward to reading more of your posts. Of course, feel free to continue the discussion. I'm glad to be your sparring partner.

One last thing, could you tell me what Chapter you play? I'm just curious.

- Frostmane

[Exetus]

Well, just so we get started correctly, it's "Exetus" *chuckle*. Ok, I'm just being anal there, but no matter, it's in fun if anything.

You have made some valid points and I agree that everything has its advantages and disadvantages although a couple of them are MORE advantageous than disadvantageous. In terms of doctrine, I call BT a non-shooty army. By doctrine, they are a close combat force with minimal fire support. Obviously you can still field weapons and kit out on armor and stuff, so you can counter the no-Devs. I know plenty of Marine players who do not take Devs... a mistake in my opinion, but it does also depend on who/what you're fighting.

In my opinion, it's quite a detractor on a smaller board with lots of cover because plasma cannons rule the short board... damn those Dark Angel players and plasma cannons in squads, *mutters*. So yes, I think we can agree that they are assault oriented. As for paying for your upgrades... well I can't disagree that its pricey to ADD cost to an assault squad, but against some enemies it would be so very nice to get that invulnerable save from a storm shield... The hidden power weapons just irk me though... I see why they have them, I just don't agree with hidden power weapons, period, dot.

One thing I want to kinda clear up on is that I understand that they can be beaten. I usually beat Templar players for the very reasons and tactics you cite, it's just harder to do with a Space Marine army simply because everything costs so much and you really don't have "expendable" units like IG *evil grin*, grots, Guardians, nurglings, yadda yadda yadda. I took it in the face the first two times I played them and then actually read their rules and came up with counters. I think my biggest gripe, if I'm being honest though, is that they seem to excel more in close combat than my chosen Chapter and they're supposed to be the epitome of close combat chapters *wry chuckle*

As to answer your directed question, I chose an army with more disadvantages than advantages (in my humble opinion). I started with the Blood Angels back in 2nd edition and just stuck with them, more because I thought they had cool units and models more than anything. Oh... and my favorite color is red *grin*. Ok, now I'm going off on a tangent. Anyhow, I selected them found out how easy they could win and promptly switched to 'nilla Marines till 3rd edition when they were toned down a lot more. Even then, I found myself going to different races simply because I could win too easily by exploiting the BA and I hate that. When the new vehicle rules came out, I jumped back on the bandwagon. No more 30" assaults *sigh*.

Anyhow, once they released the rules for Flesh Tearers, I was all over it. I liked that they had the advantages/disadvantages of the Blood Angels, and then some. Finally, a force that I thought was better suited for close combat. Turns out it's more a force that is well suited to close combat but only against certain enemies (as is usually the case).

So, I too have evolved as probably the shootiest Flesh Tearers army out there *chuckle*. I tend to field at least one devestator squad because I can't have more than one battle tank in my army (unless I use an ally with an attached tank as transport). So at most, I can have 1 Predator, Whirlwind or Land Raider. In addition, I can only have 1 normal dreadnought. So whereas the BT can counter no Devs with a shooty Dread and/or a tank, I'm pretty restricted.

That means devestator squads. Biggest problem... roll a 1 and we're running towards the enemy. Happens enough to negate at least 1 turn a game of heavy shooting. I try to counter that with Razorbacks because I can field as many of those as I want. Problem? They're only transport tanks meaning I have to restrict squads to six Marines or less (five).

Now I hit my problem. The Flesh Tearers are even more susceptible to the Black Rage so on a 4,5,6 I add a person... 5 or 6 for vets and I roll again. Vet Sgts HAVE to go first... ok, pick up a power weapon in the DC, but now I'm not only understrength on my Marine squad but dropped that point of leadership. FTs fall back, so that hurts.

Anyhow, I'll hit on the rules for those reading who don't know them.

Blood Angel/Flesh Tearer common rules
Death Company - for every squad (except vehicles other than bikes) roll for Death Company. On a roll of 4, 5 or 6, take away a Marine from that squad. On a 6, roll again (vet squads, termies, Honor Guard, vet assault marines). if vet sgt taken, gets a free power weapon in DC. Ignore injury (so long as it's not instant death) on a roll of 4+.

Blood Rage - every unit rolls at the start of each turn. On a D6 roll of 1 they move D6 inches forwards. This is EVERY unit.
In addition, on the charge, Blood Angels get +1S and +1I in addition to the usual +1 attack.

Furioso Dreads - Blood Angels and successors can field up to 6 dreadnoughts, 3 shooty dreads as Heavy Support, 3 Furiosos as Elites.

Supercharged Engines - All Blood Angel transports come with supercharged engines.

Chaplains - cost 180 pts base, but come with D3+3 Death Company. Death Company gets free rhino or jump packs, if jump packs chosen, chaplain must buy one as well.

Librarian Power (quickening) - adds D3 attacks to targeted character.

Flesh Tearer specific rules
Limited Resources - Flesh Tearers cannot have any more than 1 predator, whirlwind or land raider per army. They can have as many rhinos/razorbacks as necessary.

Black Rage - Flesh Tearers are MORE afflicted... vet units re-roll on 5 or 6. Veteran Sgts MUST be taken first in any unit.

Death Company Dreadnoughts - They get Death Company dreads (up to three as they count as elites). Must move towards enemy, always rages, ignores Shaken/Stunned hits.

Dreadnoughts - Can only field 1 normal dreadnought (shooty/furioso)... all others must be Death Company. Thus, Dreadnoughts back down to max of 4.


Lot of people will see only advantages, but I'd like to see what responses are to that before I rebut *chuckles*.

[Erik Frostmane]

>>>Well, just so we get started correctly, it's "Exetus" *chuckle*. Ok, I'm just being anal there, but no matter, it's in fun if anything.

Ah, sorry about that. I don’t know why I couldn’t spell your screen name correctly. My brain suffered from some sort of glitch or freeze-up. My bad. Exetus. Exe-tus. ExeTus. Alright, I think I got it now. *laughs*

Without further ado…

I usually solve the “no-Devastator” problem by dividing my army into a fire support element and an assault element. Since Templars don’t have Devastators, their Troop choices can carry heavy weapons like multi-meltas, plasma cannons and the likes. Six-man squads of Space Marines equipped with a heavy weapon and a special weapon, mounted in a Razorback works well for me. Did I mention that I like troop-heavy armies? I wish I could field more Troops. Six seems so little. *sniff*

I always play on 8’ x 4’ boards as this seems to be most fair for most players. It allows room to maneuver, it gives “shooty” armies a turn or two to pick the most dangerous targets and the “assault” armies have to trek a short distance to make contact.

As a side note I’ll mention a discussion I had with a friend of mine who happens to be a Dark Angel player. He was kind of up in arms when he learned that Black Templars could have plasma cannons in their basic squads of Initiates. This was because of the Dark Angels’ privilege of having plasma cannons in Tactical Squads. He was reciting the fluff and how the Dark Angels were the first Legion and all that stuff. All I could say was, I have no Devastators! Which pretty much ended the discussion.

Back to the discussion at hand.

Storm shields are good. I haven’t mustered the strength to convert my Assault Squad, but I am thinking about it. Of course, you only get an Invulnerability save for the first attack, but nevertheless, it is an excellent upgrade.

Hidden power weapons… well, I don’t really mind. Of course you are saying that, I hear you cry. Yes, I do benefit from it, but so do some others, namely the Space Wolves. Blood Claws can field three power weapons/power fists. That strikes me as a good deal. Of course, they suffer from inexperience, i.e. WS and BS 3, but still. Actually, the 13th company also field hidden power weapons, as you call them. In a way this is no different from heavy weapons troopers. You can’t single them out either, unless you pitch in an independent character. Then you have the thrice-cursed Chosen of Chaos. They are expensive, but pack a punch so powerful, I cry myself to sleep after fighting them. Ahem, well… not really. *smiles*

You should consider yourself a very skilled player, Exetus. For the very reasons you mention. You can beat them even with Space Marines, which is no small feat in my opinion. Space Marine players don’t have expendable units and thus need to spend their force wisely. Imperial Guard players have it easy! Might I add that the last sentence was a joke? *smile*

Regarding your gripe I can understand your frustration. As the years have gone by I have come to a decision when it comes to fluff: It has very little, if anything, to do with the game itself. And that I find sad. I just remember reading any of the novels where Space Marines appear and thinking, “Why can’t my Space Marines do that?” Fluff is fun, but ultimately it conflicts with the reality of the game. Don’t get me wrong, I very much agree with you here. I just don’t see how the Flesh Tearers can be… how shall I put it… tuned more towards assault than the Black Templars. Well, maybe give them hidden power weapons? *grin*

You seem like a player with honor, and there are way, way too few of those on our planet. Good sportsmanship is a rare commodity where I come from. I am an island of sportsmanship and sanity in a roiling sea of stupidity! *laughs* I can count at least a dozen players who live in my city who’d love to be able to do what you do: Beat others easily. And they’d stick to that army like it was the finest gold. I just can’t see the fun in it if you aren’t challenged anymore. Challenging battles is what makes the game worth playing. In any event, I salute you, Exetus!

I must admit that I haven’t had a good look at the Flesh Tearers, but they do seem like an interesting army. I see your predicament. And I thought I lacked firepower! At least I can field three Dreadnoughts tooled for long-range warfare and three Predators fit for any job. I usually only use two Dreadnoughts, this only to avoid my opponents from screaming “Cheesy!” only by glancing at me. But the option is available to me.

As far as advantages and disadvantages go, the ones I immediately spot are the following:

Death Company is wicked. Good assault troops. Their ignore injury ability is as handy as they can be. The problem is that some squads might become cut down to a small size, which can upset any battle plan.

Blood Rage makes all Blood Angels and their successor Chapters nasty combatants. More than once have I wanted to be able to take the Chaos Veteran Skill Furious Charge, and this isn’t too different. The difference is the involuntary move, which can throw your plans. This adds to the randomness of the army. Together with the Death Company rule it might be difficult to scry the actual army when it is deployed on the field of battle.

Furioso Dreadnoughts pretty much speak for themselves. Who wouldn’t want to field six Dreadnoughts? Talk about honored Battle Brothers, huh? They must be resourceful, as creating a Dreadnought is quite an undertaking.

Supercharged engines are pretty good. However, you risk immobilizing your Rhino every time you move those extra 6”. It is worth the risk, though.

Death Company Chaplains are expensive, but can be potentially devastating. Again, with the randomness.

The Quickening. Bah, I can’t even have Librarians. No further comment.

The Limited Resources rule pretty much speaks for itself. I can’t see the upside to that rule, but I guess it’s a matter of balancing the army as a whole.

The fact that Flesh Tearers are more susceptible to fall to the Black Rage is a double-edged sword, much like the Black Templars and their Righteous Zeal. You could end up with an unstoppable Death Company unit as Veteran Sergeants wield power weapons/fists and it can grow to quite a size. Additionally, Blood Angels are nasty on the charge. The downside is that your other units are short of manpower.

Black Company Dreadnoughts suffer the same weakness as Black Templars: You could lure them into ambushes and take them out with concentrated firepower, or a lucky lascannon shot. However, Dreadnoughts can take on just about any opponent, except for Wraithlords maybe. Their problems are large, expendable units which tie them up forever.

It’s late and I’m getting tired. This was all I could think of at this moment. I apologize for any nasty mistyping, but I can’t find the strength to check it for typos. I’m pretty sure it is full of bad grammar.

I’ll check in later.

- Frostmane

[Exetus]

Actually, you did a good job of breaking it down and I have to say that you hit everything pretty much right on the head. I think that ANY Space Marine army's greatest asset is the ability to not only dish out withering firepower but also hold its own in close combat. Unline so many other armies, the Space Marine basic unit is ALREADY an elite squad with superior armor, strength, ballistic and weapon skills. Unfortunately, with the army I have selected, I reap very little of their supporting fire abilities unless I load out on devestators. The one problem to THAT solution is simple... a devestator squad can be so ridiculously expensive that you would shudder to field it. Would not a predator be a more simple solution? Points-wise? Oh hell yeah... but by taking up my only tank slot, that's a punch in the nose *chuckles*.

Here's my take on the Death Company:
"Free" assault squad. Ok, I use the parentheses for the specific reason that you don't pay for them except by forfeiting Marines from units. Sometimes this is good, sometimes this is bad. Usually, however, you get a good turn-out from Tac and Scout squads so you cover your costs quite easily, upgrading your troop.

This is such a double-edged sword as to be ridiculous at times though. In a game where you may expect to lay down some heavy firepower as well as some nasty close combat, it's still a good idea to take Terminator squads, Veteran Squads or (in my case) Veteran Assault Squads. Each of these units are key in many games because they allow you to field a few extra guys, give em termie honors and the like. With a Veteran Assault squad, you are looking at up to 40 attacks on the charge (termie honors +1, extra ccw +1, charge +1) at Str 5, Init 5. The kicker... each Marine is like 42 points or close to it apiece. Termies... 42 or 45 pts base price... Losing even one of those troops sucks cuz the lost points go to victory points as well as reducing your squads in size... with termies that can mean a lot.

With an army requiring fire support like Flesh Tearers, you have to keep squads smaller to support the purchase of the razorback... 6 man squads down to 5 without the vet sgt... better hope they're not planning on assaulting unless they have help.

Ignore Injury. Well this is about their greatest virtue simply because you have to double their toughness or power weapon them to make sure they die, else I get to roll a D6 and laugh in your face *chuckle*. There's no real disadvantage to this ability and I actually think it's better than their 1+1 wounds that they had in 2nd Edition (they had two wounds, but all models that took at least 1 wound in the game were removed at the end of the game for victory points purposes).

Fearless They never have to take a morale test, which is nice, but without the Chaplain they have to move toward the enemy... not always cool if in an open area.

Hidden Power Weapons. Ok, so maybe I'm a bit of a hypocrite, because I can actually have hidden PWs too since I'm losing my vet sgts, but I don't usually count them as much for the simple reason that they are never a sure thing. But I'll take a hit there... bad missed call on my part...

Chaplain. I always include him when talking about the Blood Angels and their successors simply because if you DON'T take him in your army, then you're just plain stupid. Yes he's 180pts without wargear but he comes with an additional 4-6 Death Company marines giving you a free assault squad with no less than 5 troops, one of which can and has turned the tide of battles... esp if you can get a librarian and cast "quickening" on the Chaplain to give him the extra +D3 attacks... now he gets stupid, master-craft his Crozius to re-roll one failed "to-hit". Attacks 2(or 3 can't remember) +1 for CCW, +1 for termie honors, +1 on the charge and then +D3 for quickening... 8 power-weapon attacks at Str 5, Init 6 with a re-roll for a miss. Not too shabby.

The only real problem is that you HAVE to buy a jump pack for your Chaplain. Already at 5 people strong, it's usually going to mean that your DC is going to be more than 10 models. I can usually field about 15 in an 1850 pt game so I can't buy the Rhino. What that means though, is that I'm typically short a man in up to 9 other squads.

The rest of the Flesh Tearers
Aside from the beefed up DC, the rest of the army is your typical Blood Angels army without all of the ability to lay downthe same suppressive or anti-tank fire. Many BA players tend to use all of their Heavy Support slots on dreads since you can walk and fire both weapons. Occasionally they'll also get a tank. Flesh Tearers take one in the balls here *wry grin*. I only get one "normal" dreadnought option and then the rest HAVE to be Death Company Dreadnoughts. Now this again is the double-edged sword, but the edge facing me can potentially hurt me more than the side facing my enemy. A DC dread charges straight at your enemy... none of this "end closer to enemy" stuff... I have to run like a bat outta hell right at you. God save you if I get there, but therein lies the DC dread's doom... I can't take smoke launchers on him... his only saving grace is that he will ignore all crew shaken and crew stunned results. If not... well buh bye dready cuz you KNOW everyone on the board is gunning for him. Unfortuantely for most troops, you can't hurt him a lick while you fight him in h2h. Unfortunately for vehicles, he gets his Str +2D6 armor penetration... stay away from him... he's crazy and can take down MOST enemies in h2h.


Although it may seem small, the rule changes have hurt the BA and their successors pretty hard. Like the White Scars and Templars, they had the ability to get across the board, dismount and charge all in the same move. Although I deplore the use of the Rhino Rush, I can't overstate how much of a key it was to quick victories or defeats. You are guaranteed no less than an 18" assault move... usually about 22" was the norm, but by god, the day you got your 30", your enemy cowered in fear because in one turn, your entire assault army was hitting him like Buster Douglas whuppin up on Iron Mike.

Now, once again, the 6" Blood Rage becomes a liability. Nothing like having your Devs move OUT of cover and then have to move back in during a turn so as to not be able to fire. Or your tank moving and not being able to necessarily fire all the lascannons or autocannons since they are Str 7+.

Assault Units and problems.
To take out tanks you need fire power. Cheap firepower comes in the form of multi-melta Land Speeders... can't lose them to DC like you can with bikes. Problem... cuts down on Assault Squads you can buy which you desperately need in a Flesh Tearers army.

Any Flesh Tearers army without at least two assault squads is doomed to failure... the second unit will draw fire from the DC or hit at full strength (minus at least one guy usually). It's up to your opponent... If you go for a pricier second assault unit, your problem is stated here:

Blood Angels and their successors have the ability to field Veteran Assault Squads. They count as elites, can take terminator honors and pretty much make your normal assault squad look like a bunch of first-timer scouts. Those are their bonuses. Penalties - one more unit to take up an "Elites" choice meaning cutting down on the available positions for DC dreads and you ALWAYS need 2 in 1500+ games because one will go down to fire, guaranteed. Also, they get to re-roll on a 5 or 6, for DC. I've lost as many as 6 of the 10 on a bad day...

Fine-tuned balancing act... ok, my mind is wandering right now... must be lack of sleep but any other issues and I, of course am willing to discuss and expand... I'm quite enjoying this discussion.

[Erik Frostmane]

I figured I should mention it, despite the fact that it probably isn’t a problem per se. We’ve completely hijacked this thread! *grins* It was supposed to be a rating of someone’s “undefeatable” Black Templars army, and has turned into a discussion about Flesh Tearers pros and cons, versus Black Templars pros and cons, as assault-oriented armies. Well, since nobody has tried to bring the thread back on track, I’ll judge that as a green light and a go-ahead. Oh, and no army is undefeatable.

Now, back to the discussion.

As far as my knowledge goes, it seems like you’ve covered the Flesh Tearers pretty good. I don’t really have anything worthwhile to add, really. I couldn’t really adgree more with your relatively in-depth analysis of the army list.

As far as the 30” assault move-schtick goes, I’m glad it’s dead. Truth be told, I feel that both the new assault rules and the vehicle rules, are some of the best things that have happen to the Warhammer 40,000 rules. People who know I used to play Black Templars just go: “What?!” For some peculiar reason, they believe that since I played Black Templars I had to take advantage and abuse the rules, i.e. Rhino Rush. As mentioned a couple of posts back, I feel it upsets the balance of the game. Too much focus on close combat. So I’ll say it again: the trial rules (and what I hope 4th edition looks like) seems to be a gift from the gods! Actually, after reading the trial rules and being inspired by the Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters codices, as well as the 13th Company, I started up a second Black Templar army, which I’m currently working on. However, I probably won’t play with them because I really don’t have time anymore. Studying law actually requires a lot of time! *laughs* So I’m happy with converting, modelling and painting.

The trial vehicle rules (TVR) have made attempts to subdue the superiority of close combat by making it harder for assault troops to actually reach their designated target (victims, really). Shooting has been adjusted as well. Vehicles can move and shoot, rapid fire weapons can fire twice at 12” whether the troops moved or not and more such stuff like this. Looks like White Dwarf 297 is going to be good, by the way. Peter Haines discusses the updates to the system, plus a Battle Report using the new rules. And lo and behold, the Black Templars fight the Biel-Tan! Awesome! Sure hope that Haines is playing the Space Marines and Cavatore the Eldar. I digress, once again. Can’t really seem to focus here, eh.

I’ll return once I have something more to add/worth reading.

- Frostmane