Battle capabilities of a craftworld

[Stormblade]

Well seeing as the thread has been sidetracked from the Tau purpose heres the new thread. The question is would it be possible to ram a craftworld with a battleship? It'll destroy the craftworld or do massive daage toit, but would it be possible?
In my opinion the person would be killed far in advance of him even thinking of it. Damn farseers... Well what do others think?

[Thalasion]

There must be a way to do it, i mean if you got enuf of them they wouldent be able to target them all. might take a fleet or 2 but it would be worth it to take out a craft world, they only have so mamy and cant produce more.But then the guns on smething that big , they probebly have stuff that could incinerate whole spacehulks in one go.

[Stormblade]

Well yes with a load of ships they would get through and destroy a craftworld. But really how would anyone do it? The farseers would know it might happen WAY before the person who came up with the idea even thought about it. Whoever thought about it, wouldn't. The person would be dead before they thought about it!

[Lord_Maccarage]

Craftworlds have three defences 1) the guns and fortifications that the bonesingers can quickly grow out of the craftworld itself in response to a threat 2) craftworlds are mobile, so if the eldar thought an attack was coming they would try to hide somewhere inaccesible, i.e. asteroid field, black hole cluster and 3) the annoying predictions of farseers would mean that the eldar would have plenty of warning and time to manipulate someone else into defending them i.e as the battlefleet approachs, it is attacked by an ork waaagh fleet, which destroys the imperial ships
plus, even compared to a battleship, the major craftworlds are huge. i doubt anything less than superweapons (planet killer, blackstone fortresses) could do much damage

[Strybjorn]

Don't forget the fleet of ships that accompany any craftworld. They don't just travel alone. Hell, it took a Nid Hive fleet to almost destroy a craftworld. So draw your own conclusions.

:duck:

[Dark Watcher]

Worked that maths.

a 5 Million ton ship travelling at 99% speed of light impacts on craft world.

With special relativity the energy released is equivalent to 380,000,000,000 mega ton atomic weapon!

Craft world go bye bye

[Tegadil]

Firstly, the chance that any imperial ship (much less a battleship!) are very very slim. Getting past the fleet that surrounds a craftworld (and reinforcements that will come) would also be a tough job.

Secondly, a battleship ramming a craftworld would do significant damage, but it would be far from destroying it. Despite what game rules tend to show, wraithbone is extremely strong - probably stronger than whatever material makes up the prow of a battleship. Not to mention that I'd wager that a craftworld is larger than any battleship the Imperium has.

And thirdly, Dark Watcher, where do you get that Imperial ships can move at .99c?

[rocket_Magnet]

no the likely hood of any battleship being able to ram a craftworld in remote,
i)the large fleet acompanying the craftworld will make mince meat out of anything you throw at them
ii) the defences of the craftworld itself are designed to take down battleships and other such threats
iii) farseers would see any impending attack long before it reached the craftworld and would have an even greater force than normal waiting, or would just move away altogether from the site of the attack

[Stormblade]

As well as what othe rpeople have posted and the stead-fast ignoring of my post about what the farseers say in the matter... since when did Imperial ships travel at the speed of light? They do long distance travel through the warp and definatly go slower than light when in real-space.

[Sir Guppy]

Secondly, a battleship ramming a craftworld would do significant damage, but it would be far from destroying it. Despite what game rules tend to show, wraithbone is extremely strong - probably stronger than whatever material makes up the prow of a battleship.


how you work that out? for a start in 40k wraitbone is very hard, thinking of the wraithlord here.

but the prow of a battle ship is much stronger than a ship made of wraithbone, as battle fleet gothic shows. 6+ on imperial ships 4+ on eldar ships. no dought wraithbone is hard but it aint that good.


iii) farseers would see any impending attack long before it reached the craftworld and would have an even greater force than normal waiting, or would just move away altogether from the site of the attack

but if you go along with the line of thinking that eldar can see anything happening in the future, then the eldar should never suffer a defeat, but thats total crap, the eldar loose battles all the time.

eldar farseers see many events that could happen, not exaclty what happens, if im correct.

also who says the battle ship has to go through the eldar fleet? why cant it drop outta the warp just behing the fleet or even inside the craft world itself.

also strybjorn i think it was only a part of the hive fleet, not the whole fleet itself.

[BlackSeer]

It very hard for a ship to travel the warp, you cant just enter normal space anywhere you want, you really dont know where you would end up between point A - B. Thats why ships exits at a system jump point, then travel in realspace for days to reach the target.

Also rules regarding leave warpspace inside a system, some things are impossible, you dont wanna end up inside a sun or planet :D

[Dark Watcher]

And thirdly, Dark Watcher, where do you get that Imperial ships can move at .99c?


Meer speculation. Someone mentioned a ship hitting at light speed.

Don't know the specs for battleship so did what physicists do best. Made them up for sake of demonstration.

What speed is it capable of?

[Athair]

I doubt it would be possible to destroy a Craftworld this way:

1) The Imperium would first have to discover the Craftworld. If the discovery was deemed a threat, the Craftworld would move (probably into the Webway).
2) To ram the Craftworld, you would have to get through its defences (and the fleets surrounding it)
3) The Farseers would predict it and counter it. The closer the time gets to the ramming, the easier it will get for the Farseers to 'see' it.
4) Ramming a Craftworld with a single ship would not destroy it. Craftworlds are the size of Planets and made of tougher stuff than planets.

It seems that the Eldar have many defence systems to protect them (much like the Imperium has the several defence systems of Terra). They would not take a chance in having their 'man' made planets destroyed. :D

[chocolate]

Being able to see the future doesn't make much of a difference here. Just because you can see the future in the particular way a farseer does, does not make sure you will be able to counter the threat. All farseers have trouble seeing the future, its a hazy, unpredictable thing. Having lots of battleships doesn't change things much either. If you have a good enough crew, (and remember, this doesn't necessarily deal with ONLY the imerium) you can exit the warp only a few kilometers away from the craftworld. You will have barely decelarated by the time you hit it, and even if the ship is annihilated by the craftworld before impact, it will now have to deal with a hail of debris, some of it up to a kilometer long. Finally, the entire craftworld is not only wraitbone. Only the core of it is, the rest is made up of substances not nearly as strong (heck, I think most anything moving at nearly the speed of light upon impact would tear through wraitbone anyway). One last thing. A planet is a massive, spinning, solid rock. Although a craftworld is the size of a small planet, it is not solid like a planet. It is holed with corridors, rooms, domes, etc.

[Tegadil]

Meer speculation. Someone mentioned a ship hitting at light speed.

Don't know the specs for battleship so did what physicists do best. Made them up for sake of demonstration.

What speed is it capable of?

I can't remember any specifics being mentioned, but I'd imagine it would much less than the speed of light. To move something as large as an imperial ship that fast would require a tremendous expenditure of energy, and I'm not terribly sure they would be able to even generate the energy needed. It's far more efficient to take your chances on the etheric wind.

And Athair, while a craftworld is quite huge-lol, I'm not sure they reach the size of a planet. And given the huge nature of the craftworld, no tunnel inside the webway could accomodate it. Fleets and individual troop movements can dart around the galaxy, but craftworlds pretty much rely on very slow movement methods.




how you work that out? for a start in 40k wraitbone is very hard, thinking of the wraithlord here.

but the prow of a battle ship is much stronger than a ship made of wraithbone, as battle fleet gothic shows. 6+ on imperial ships 4+ on eldar ships. no dought wraithbone is hard but it aint that good.


You...you completely missed my point there. When I said:


Despite what game rules tend to show, wraithbone is extremely strong - probably stronger than whatever material makes up the prow of a battleship.

The rules which I referred to were those of Battlefleet Gothic, not 40K. So...I said that you shouldn't use the rules as a reference to Wraithbones relative toughness, and you did...exactly that.





also who says the battle ship has to go through the eldar fleet? why cant it drop outta the warp just behing the fleet or even inside the craft world itself.

also strybjorn i think it was only a part of the hive fleet, not the whole fleet itself.

Eldar fleets defending a craftworld tend to hang in pretty closely to the craftworld itself, so it would be hard to come in behind them. And if the existing forces were somehow drawn away, reinforcements could deploy at any time right next to the craftworld. An approaching battleship could be attacked at any point along its course. And even with the best crews, coming out of the warp at the right spot is a very chancey thing. More than likely, they would come out many minutes or even hours out from the craftworld.

Also, I'm pretty sure it was the entire hivefleet that attacked Iyanden.

[Sir Guppy]

why shouldnt we use the rules for information on how hard wraitbone is?
you seem to have seen something which contradicts your argument and just disregarded it and declaring that no one can use the rules as a basis for arugment. what gives you the ability to do this?

eldar ships are very weak, and altho i suspect a the craft world is very hard, so in the prow of a battleship, you have to remember we are not trying to use the battleship to out gun the craft world, but rather just go right through it high speed.

if the eldar fleets are very close to the craftworld it would just give them less time to shoot the battle ship down, and even if they do then they have to deal with the the bulk of the ship of which there is a good chance that it might hit the craft world which is the size of a small planet - hard to miss.

[BlackSeer]

As I said before, they cant leave the warp that close, that is if they craftworld arent next to a jumppoint. Only book I read where somone suprised a craftworld was in Draco Chaos Child with draco, and it was chaos using "magic" to conceal them self until they were close to assult it :smash:

[PhoenixLord]

Even if there were large pieces left over from a battleship, any eldar capitan would want to save the craftworld and would block battleship debris with his ship. Better to lose a single ship then a whole craftworld. Also dont forget holofields.

[Cailet]

Holofields wouldn't save a Craftworld but wraithbone is bloody tough. the ships in BFG are not exact replics of 'reality', rather they have to capture the 'spirit' of the ship ie an eldar ship is light compared to Imperial ships, there is not much variation on a six point chart is there.

[KingKupo]

Also, I'm pretty sure it was the entire hivefleet that attacked Iyanden.

Ehm, do you have any idea how big a hivefleet is?

Iyanden was attacked by a part of hivefleet kraken. and even tough they predicted the attack and managed to kill quite some bio ships, the 'nids managed to kill 4/5ths of the craftworld's populace and deal quite some damage to the interior. if a whole tyranid hivefleet would focus on a craftworld, say goodbye to it.

[BlackSeer]

The first warning the Eldar of Iyanden had of their fate was brought by the Craftworld's far ranging Scouts, Eldar whose instincts drive them to a life of exploration and danger, and who secretly monitor the planets and alien races near their Craftworld. The news that the Scouts brought was dire; a Tyranid Hive Fleet of immense proportions was heading towards Iyanden Craftworld. Already over a dozen Imperial planets had been consumed in the Tyranid's advance and, although the Imperium was mounting furious counter-attacks as and when it could, it would be months until a major Imperial task-force could be mobilised to deal with the threat. By then Iyanden would have been overrun.


Sounds big :bandit:

[Cailet]

Yup, it was. Anyone here played 'Doom of the Eldar'? That was based around the Iyanden battle so hopefully it contained some idea of scale (if no-one has I'll try and link you to some material on it).

I just got a copy of Codex:Eldar (2nd ed) today and it says that not only is wraithbone tougher than admantium and forms the 'skeleton' (like ribs and other protective bits) of a Craftworld it can regenerate itself after damage. I think that answers the original debate.

[Dark Watcher]

I just got a copy of Codex:Eldar (2nd ed) today and it says that not only is wraithbone tougher than admantium and forms the 'skeleton' (like ribs and other protective bits) of a Craftworld it can regenerate itself after damage. I think that answers the original debate.

Ok, so the Craftworld will regenerate, but the energy of the impact will have killed all the eldar on it.

Ghost Craftworld

[Cailet]

Unlikely, the wraithbone will protect everyone outside a few kilometres. Anyway this is all a bit pointless seeing as how even if someone wanted to do it (which few would) they couldn't due to meddling farseers, CW battlefleets, CW's inbuilt weapons and these vicious teleporting warriors of theirs (and before you rubbish that one they launch from a ship not the CW itself).

[Thalasion]

Farseers can see the future, well so can tzeentch, a 1000sons strike force led by a particularly favoured demon prince could pull it off.

[Spazhazzard]

A Craftworld is more than capable of defending itself from almost any size fleet, to completely destroy one you would have to combine the Segmentum Pacificus and Segmentum Solar fleets to create a threat big enough, and even if they got through the Craftworlds own defence fleet, they have webway gates that other Eldar fleets could arrive through to aid them.

[Sir Guppy]

lol the eldar would loose in open battle against a large imperial fleet. purley cos the imperium would out number them (thats why they tend to fight like raiders). i reckon the imperium could take out an eldar craft world, lets face it - its only really a rather large space station the sort of stuff imperial fleet tackle quite often. dont get me wrong im not saying it would be easy, you would need a massive fleet for a start (although Pacificus and Solar fleets is prolly an over kill, think you over estimate the power of a craft world) i think if the imperium really felt like it could assemble a force large enough to destory a craft world.

but then you would have the problems of a predictably high casulty rate. the actually planning, building and collection of a very large fleet. finding the craft world and making the attack. these problems would be made even more difficult by the farseers ability to see the attack, and also bringing such a large portion of forces together in one area means many other areas would be made significantly weaker.

also i think you eldar players put to much faith in the idea of farseers seeing into the future, as far as i was aware they see thousands of things that could happen in the future, not exactly what happens, if they could it would suggest that the eldar would never loose a battle, which they do.

[Spazhazzard]

I don't put faith into farseeing into the future. I suppose the fleet size i suggested was a bit large but....nothing like a bit of overkill to start the day. Have you read the article in one of the recent WDs about the Revilers (i think it is) Fortress Monastery being destroyed? It says that a large fleet was required to do that, and a CW is HUUUGGGEEE.

[Thalasion]

Have you read the article in one of the recent WDs about the Revilers (i think it is) Fortress Monastery being destroyed? It says that a large fleet was required to do that, and a CW is HUUUGGGEEE.

It was the relictors, and im shure that an imperial force fights much harder when its faced with a masive alien fleet not just one marine ship(ok a big marine ship) that may or may not have been corupted by chaos.

[Spazhazzard]

woops, Relictors....I knew what i meant anyway.

[Cailet]

Well the bit where a CW is the size of a moon might have a bearing on the subject. Especially since I am fairly sure the Relictors had a Ramilies class which is nowhere near the size.

"also i think you eldar players put to much faith in the idea of farseers seeing into the future, as far as i was aware they see thousands of things that could happen in the future, not exactly what happens, if they could it would suggest that the eldar would never loose a battle, which they do."

I do not say they get everything but it is the first line of defence. I agree with the rest of that post thoughSir Guppy.

[Kaldaris]

Your Kamikaze Fiasco would never work.Craftworld's are the size of :alarm:PLANETS:alarm:. The most you would is make a hole thats it and it certainly wouldn't kill all the Eldar.



You guys are seriously underestimating Farseers. They do nothing but sit in a chamber and scry the Future every single Soliatry day(they take breaks of course).Farseer's are constantly watching out for their Craftworlds-they would see this probability and already alter it before the Imperium could lauch their attack. This is why Craftworlds are relectant to send the Farseer's into war.


Craftworlds are :alarm:SWARMING:alarm: with Eldar ships.Any imperial vessel would be Vapourised in mear seconds.

Imperial Ships can't travel at light speed in normal space, They have to go to a specific warp junction and enter into the warp through it and once there in the warp there no longer in real space. So this attack can't even happen!

[Cailet]

Not very succinct but brutally accurate summation of my view.

[Kaldaris]

hehe "Brutally Accurate"

Sorry but i'm tired :steam: of all the imperium centralism thats is WH40K. And to just go "Just send a Battleship at lightspeed through a craftworld" well that's a no no :naughty:

[Cailet]

Blasted GW. It would be nice if we got some detail like in 2nd Ed. Now there was an era when the Eldar were known and feared like the masters of the galaxy they truly are in their hearts.

[Sir Guppy]

yeah those relictors, i thought that was a really good story. but then again the thing getting attacked was an already damaged fortress monastry, and it was caught by suprise by imperial ships supported by grey knights, and lets face it grey knights are F***ING HARD.

a craft world maybe the size of a small planet, but you have to remember that only the outside of the craft world can fight, the centre is just like a building site off which everything was made. the attacking ships dont have to destory every single atom of the craft world, only take out the main defense and contructs on its surface, then it is defencless against any sort of attack.

this arugment that the craft world is as big as a planet and that makes it hard is a pretty lame one. yeah it would be hard to break the whole thing apart, but as i already said you dont need to break the whole thing apart. hell being big just makes you a bigger target. and anyway the imperial navy prolly deal with planet sized targets all the time.

also this whole idea of crashing a battle ship was started when i made an "off the cuff" remark in another thread, i didnt actually expect it to start its own thread.


yeah that sorta stuff, i really hate the eldar for being so bloody annoying like that, the imperium should crash a retribution class battleship at warp speed into a craft world, that would screw em over.

and yeah i now reckon the acutal chance of a craft world being destoryed by ramming it with a battle ship is pretty slim. ive now moved onto a more conventional like fleet bombardments. however i dont get this argument that as the craft world is a big as a planet it wouldnt get damaged by a very large object crashing into it. i mean imagine the craft world is the earth say, then a retribution is like the size of an asteriod and we all seen crappy asteriod v earth movies, so we all know what happens when a very large object moving at a fast speed hits a larger object going at a slow speed. LOTS OF PEOPLE DIE. i mean im not expecting the whole craft world to fall apart but you have to admit it would do a lot of damage and prolly rake alot of the buildings off the surface, whle just riping apart a large amount of the infastructure of the craft world.

[BlackSeer]

kaladaris I pointed out that about the warp before :nana:

Anyway, Chaos force have managed to get close up and made assult in small force with the eldar being hit badly so there aint that safe victory. And this attack was on Ulthew (a lot of farseers) :argh:

[Sir Guppy]

at last evidence to support my view that farseers aint that good at seeing into the future and rather suck a lot.

[The Collector]

Time dilation effects kick in as one approaches 1c speed. Impact of a battleship against craftworld=resonance might destroy the battleship first, causing it to shatter like a glass jar dropped on a ceramic tile floor.

Craftworlds are big and have lots of cover.

The answer is to trigger the warp drives and suck the craftworld in; the solution used to eliminate the Tyranids of Hive Fleet Behemoth near Macragge.

[Kaldaris]

at last evidence to support my view that farseers aint that good at seeing into the future and rather suck a lot.

:rant:

I'm sure that has nothing to do with crappy GW writers, I mean their responsible for such brilliant fluff peices like:

Random fluff- "and so the commissar got up, and killed 10 striking scorpions with his power fist, he got a medal, hurray!"

"Mr. Ranger is a sneaky guy, with pointy ears, he's so slick. But Catachan is slicker! Mr. ranger died from Catachan, go humans!"

"farmer Johnson then shot the alien in the head, stabbed the other one, and swiped off the head of the next alien pointy pirate. Then he got knocked out, the archon laughed at him. But he's a space marine now! and so a few hundreds years later brother Johnny avenges his town! (I thought he already avenged them through the extreme embarassment of having a farm hick kill a dozen+ centuries experienced warriors)"

Exarch dialogue-" I hate humans, humans suck, we're so much better than humans! *one flame thrower second later* hahah, look, the arrogant alien is DEAD, killed by humans, ha!

Expert, millenia honed Eldar tactic-"Ok guardians, everybody run THAT way!(charge! right into the 5 marines with unlimited ammo)"

"Eldar warriors land on Tallran, but they forgot, deserts are HOT! Eldar warriors get heat stroke and die! (IT REALLY HAPPENED!)"

"Eldar warrior has cool boinic arms, 'cause he lost his old ones. Eldar warrior loses these too, because THEY GET STUCK IN A **** DOOR"

Eldar get killed by farmers, heat stroke, and injured by doors. We are the kings of bad fluff.

That kinda renders the Blackseers post useless, So untill GW decides to think outside the box(the box being anything Human)Eldar will always be the ones being defeated.

[Sir Guppy]

right...

theres tons of fluff with the eldar winning battles, think your being a bit over zealous. and anyway what do you expect the imperium are the heros of 40k, of course their is alot of stuff in which they win.


Sorry but i'm tired of all the imperium centralism thats is WH40K. And to just go "Just send a Battleship at lightspeed through a craftworld" well that's a no no

well their has to be a central race. i think you would just prefer it to be the eldar. but i mean im all up for having the imperium fall apart and go into another "dark age", where all the planets fend for themselves and all have their own agendas.

but back onto topic now.

anyway i like The Collectors idea of imploding the warp drives.

but heres another idea, is wraithbone alive or not? cos you see im no sure, i know its really hard and all that but is it like grown into place being "bone". because if that is the case would a virus bomb destroy wraithbone

[Dark Watcher]

:rant:

Expert, millenia honed Eldar tactic-"Ok guardians, everybody run THAT way!(charge! right into the 5 marines with unlimited ammo)"


hey don't knock that tactic...
:hwpilot: the same tactic worked for the Zulu's against british soldiers. Granted it was 10,000 versus around a hundred (grasp on exact details of real history is a little shakey).

[BlackSeer]

Well dont know where you got your info, but I bet it comes from the same place as mine (gw) so it got the same weight :werd:

[Spazhazzard]

Can someone make a smiley thats the holding a board that says "lame" on it isntead of "weird"?
Back on topic: I have to say this is a bit of a stupid arguement. Think about, why would the Imperium destroy a Craftworld anyway? (I dont want to be a killjoy)

[Souless]

After reading this thread I feel unnaturally Suicidal... Or is that homocidal??

[BlackSeer]

Can someone make a smiley thats the holding a board that says "lame" on it isntead of "weird"?
Back on topic: I have to say this is a bit of a stupid arguement. Think about, why would the Imperium destroy a Craftworld anyway? (I dont want to be a killjoy)

Hertic! Call in Ordo Hereticus and let the inquisitors bring light to your clouded mind :fight:

[Stormblade]

Hertic! Call in Ordo Hereticus and let the inquisitors bring light to your clouded mind :fight:
Well considering that hes a farseer I would have thought that the ordo xenos would be slightly more appropiate...

[BlackSeer]

Well considering that hes a farseer I would have thought that the ordo xenos would be slightly more appropiate...

Its just a picture, there are a human hertic behind that screen :argue:

[Abyss]

I don't think the Imperuim would attack a craftworld beacuse..wel as much as i ahte to say this cause i play and love Eldar, well lets face it Eldar are going to die soon, and besdies don't the Eldar huard the webway from the Dark Eldar and if they died the Dark eldar would have a much greater chance to luanch raids and attacks?

[Grendel Rose]

Yup they guard against much of the dark eldar, of course if the dark eldar arn't as ahuge a threat as chaos and the orks but it is still nice that they kill each other most of the time and leave the imperium out of it.

[Spazhazzard]

I have killed many of your pathetic mon-keigh inquisitors!

The DE live inside the webway, but in a sealed off area because the Eldar have closed down many of the entrance portals that lead into it.

[Dimension]

part of this was posted in another thread so i cut/paste.
one other thing. there is no such thing as "warp speed". this is not star trek. when engaging warp drives, a ship slips into a paralell dimension where time and space flow differently. a ship reentering real space would move at no significant speed, if it even moves at all (my guess is it needs to accelarate again, since it can't carry over any momentum it aquired in the warp or prior to the warp). so ramming a craftworld wouldn't really be feasable, or cause any significant damage.

besides, the fluff states that it takes something like a good-sized portion of a hivefleet to begin to contest distruction of a craftworld. read the stuff on craftworld Iyanden (i think it was Iyanden), they were almost razed by a hivefleet. what is a single battleship compared to a hivefleet?

so basically, kamikaze don't fly. you either jump right next to a craftworld and can't accelarate towards it long enough to build any reasonable velocity. or you jump far away to get some serious speed going on, get detected a long time ago and easily intercepted by eldar fleets.

besides, just look at a battleship. keep in mind the energy you need to accelarate such a huge mass rises exponentially the higher your desired speed is. i'd be surprised if a battleship could even go a fifth or a fourth of lightspeed. there is no need to. they just warp to get places.

pretty much the only way to kill a craftworld is to immobilize it, kill all defenses and ships guarding it, and drag it into a sun. or into the warp.

brings up a scary concept though. imagine a demon and CSM-infested space hulk the size of a craftworld. :eek:

[Thalasion]

Or ork or 'stealer infested, just cos it goes into the warp doesent mean chaos gets it.

[The Collector]

Anyone been able to refute pulling a craftworld into the warp? If a ship can trigger its warp drives to pull a large amount of Tyranid ships into the warp (Hive Fleet Behemoth near Macragge) it might be done to a CW as well. It depends on how the warp implosion thing works and if it "sucks in" mass like a black hole does.

[Dimension]

maybe its possible. it has one little fault though, that might make it impossible or not .

a Hive fleet is comprised of many many ships, that could be sucked in with relative ease. a Craftworld is a single coherent object, and not a particularly fragile one at that. keep in mind that craftworlds don't need to be fast, so they could slap on some extra armour, which they don't on their spaceships so they still remain fast.

so what i'm saying is, if the trick the marines pulled off with the hive fleet is supposed to work with the craftworld, that would mean that the rift in realspace must exert a HUGE pull, aka have a humongous gravity well. if this is the case, it works. if it isn't, it doesn't.

[Parasol]

Surely finding a Craftworld would be the real difficulty? I mean, it might be planet sized, but in a galaxy millions of light years wide, that's minute. To find one you'd have to know what system it was in to start, and then narrow it down - and if it's not in system, you'd have no chance - Imperial ships just aren't made to travel through deep space for protracted periods of time (hence the need ofor warp travel) - and there is a hell of lot of deep space to go around anyway

[Khain]

Re:Dark Watcher
Wrong the ship world go into an orbit around a the craft world and or go straight past because the imperial ships cannot go into "light speed" only warp DIO besides that the craftworld is the saize of a large planet it world be like and asteroid or impact on the sheilds and that would be a waste of a battle ship

Double Post

Re:Dimension
thank u very much this is what i was talkin about in my last post :D

Please don't use the quote function to reply. It is used for quoting specific parts of a thread, not as a replacement for the 'Reply' button. - Triceron

[.Lexx]

Chaos cant even enter a Craftworld. All the farseers that have ever lived on that craftworld are in the hall of crstal seers, their souls stored in the infinty matrix, which runs throughout the entire craftworld.... thats a whole LOAD of psychic power. plus, as the event passes closer in time, the more chance that it will hapen, the more a farseer will see it, the more warning they have.

Plus the gunners in the infinfty matrix will have access to all the weapons and sensor arrays, they wont miss with anything....

[Paradise]

The necron dyson sphere. It's diameter is 155731518km/1.04 AU(Earth=12700km).

This might not seem impressive to you, but not even all fleets combined could stop this. A sun+The Outsider+a LOT of living metal, and even our sun is nothing compared to this thing.

One of the only things I think can stop an Eldar CW

[Sir Guppy]

huh? i dont see how this post is connected. i dont suppose you could say. im a little slow atm.

[Random Person]

Dyson, Thats a type of vacume cleaner.

[Sir Guppy]

yeah i know i still dont see how it is connected to the battle capabilites of a craft world.

[Paradise]

Sir Guppy, I'm merely mentioning a thing that could stop a CW. Thereby saying a CW isn't invincible.

[WarpJunkie]

I'm sure that it would be "possible" do destroy a craftworld but it wouldn't be probable. Think about it, the Eldar are dimishing in numbers and are primarilly concerned with survival and although Eldar don't care for humanity, they care more about becoming a super power rather than erratication so if you're the emperor, would you really organize a large enough fleet just to go kill a craftworld? As someone else said, Tzeench can also see the future and if he saw that the imerium was going to lauch a massive assult on a craftword, Chaos, and i'm sure Orks and Tyranids would all jump at the opporutinity to lauch a major offensive so where it would be possible to destroy a craftword it wouldn't be bloody likely in the next 10,000 years it's on the Emperors to do list

[chocolate]

Lets think about it this way. 65 million years ago, an asteroid a couple kilometers long slams into the earth, moving at LESS then light speed. Leaves impact crater in New Mexico that is a couple miles long. Almost all life on Earth is annihilated. Whats left deals with an Ice Age. Zip into the 40th millenium. Most Imperial ships are a couple of kilometers long, and all move slower then lightspeed in real space. A typical Craftworld is smaller then the Earth, and has numerous hollow sections (corridors, terrariums, etc), making it less structurally stable. If Earth was devastated, what happens to a hollow, smaller, craftworld with admittedly strong materials (wraithbone), though that wraithbone only makes up a small fraction of the ship. That craftworld is going to take extreme casulties, and be broken up into several pieces. One more thing to note. We are not talking about an Eldar Fleet's capabilities. We are talking about a CRAFTWORLD's capabilities, not the Fleet that patrols with it.

[BlackSeer]

Not to break your heart, but they need to get there first, and something earth lack is engiens so it can move :blah:

[Imperial marine]

i think it would be hard 1 the farseers pridicting this therefore it changes course and goes somewhere else 2 everyone on the craftworld are trained to fight 3 the weaponry on the craftworld is probaly VERY powerful
oh and there mirging some of the codexs now the SM codex will have blood angels dark angels u name it the Eldar codex will have dark eldar and i think the craftworld eldar codex

[Sir Guppy]

so what if the craft world had engines, its not exactly a light crusier is it? its very big for a space ship, which probally also makes it slow, ponderous and it probally also has the most horrific of turning circles, even a battleship could outmanourve and outrun a craftworld.

[BlackSeer]

My point was rather aimed for asteroids, and those are used in the god-emperors service to bomb the crap out of enemy planets :bandit:

Anyway, if it was so easily to tap a craftworld I would think it would have happen already :smash:

[Sir Guppy]

eh? you cant use that as an argument, its like saying the ultramariens havnt been wiped out yet, that must make them invincible.

[Dimension]

sorry, but the analogy of earth and the asteroid doesn't work.

all life on earth was not killed because of the asteroid impact, but because of some of its results. for onething, loads of stuff died because of hugeass tsunamis, raging around on a planet that is 70 percent water. a craftworld is solid, and the water reserves it has are most likely not organized into something resembling and ocean. so no tsunamis.

what killed a lot of life in the long run was that gigantic dustclouds caused by the impact obscured the sky, thus sun was not able to shine upon it. plants died, then animals died.

again, a craftworld is not made of loose soil. it would not create a fatass dustcloud. and even if it did, why would this be a problem? the eldar don't rely on the sun for their energy. they derive their power from some kind of generator, using fusion or whatever, to power their craft and grow their food.

[chocolate]

Blackseer... I'm not saying that the Imperium could use an asteroid to blast the crap out of a Craftworld. I'm comparing the size of a typical cruiser in the Imperial Navy to that asteroid. Now, first, craftworlds are smaller then Earth, and are also hollow. Not solid. Hollow. What I'm trying to say is, if a cruiser going as fast as it could not in the warp slammed into a craftworld, that craftworld would be worse of then Iyanden. Not necessarilly destroyed, but in terrible shape. Depending on where it hit, The population could be nearly obliterated, the wraithstones destroyed, the fusion engines damaged, and likely have many chunks of it broken off the main superstructure. Wraithbone is certaintly hardass metal, but it makes up only a small amount of the craftworld. Whats left isn't as strong as the metals used by the Imperial navy.

[Sir Guppy]

i have a question, is wraithbone living?

if so virus bombs would be very effective against them, not only killing the populace but the wraithbone itself.

[Athair]

Wraithbone is not 'living' per say. Bonesingers 'grow' the wraithbone up, drawing and creating it from warp energies. They do it in such a manner, that sheet after sheet is laid onto the existing piece. So this is what gives the impression of 'growth'.
No, a virus bomb wouldn't work. It's not alive in that sense :D .

[Sir Guppy]

o well, just have to gas the eldar then. :)

[Di$array]

hi all, plzz tell me if this post is in the worng place if i will make a new thread because the eldar are my other army and i love hearing the history behind races.

remember the eye of terror campaign (what a stupid question, everyone does), that the eldar found another lost craftworld, the Altansar, can anyone tell me if they read any nws about taht craftworld, etc.

[Cailet]

Right. Atlansar is a craftworld that was sucked into the EoT the only survivor was Maugan Ra who started thr Reapers. Phil Kelly has been subverting the system to give the Eldar some good stuff so there is more fluff plus an army list coming up.

Hope that helps you.

For whoever is trying to ram the craftworld with a cruiser there are too many blocks plus (and I think I said this already) "When push comes to shove the Eldar step out of the way." The Eldar can evacuate the CW barring a few bonesingers and a Seer or two to repair the damage and come back when the wraithbone has been regrown. The only thing that would take a CW down is the destruction of the Infinity Circuit which is made of pure wraithbone. It ain't gonna happen.

[Coey]

I have an hypotheisis on how to destroy a CW, it involves the Macragge Warp trick, lots of scouts/psykers scouring the universe to find a CW, and an entire battle fleet, and an ENORMOUS amout of luck, i mean alot of luck.


The pyskers find a craft world floating round on the Eastern Fringe, for some strange reason the Eldar Farseers have overlooked this happening and are enjoying a festival, or somesuch. The psykers then send a Vermilon Class meassage to the Fleet, telling them where the CW is, now here is where the ENORMOUS amount of luck comes in, the Fleet then enter the warp, here comes the ENORMOUS amount of luck, come out the other side about 3 seconds later, 'cause of the massive time distortian and the ENORMOUS amount of luck. Warp out when they get there, but instead of destroying the CW outright, they suck it into the warp, just out of spite. Ofcourse the battle fleet is ripped apart by the Demons of the warp, who have enraged by the Eldar entering their domain and promplty begin to kill everything, man and eldar alike. And Slaanesh is really really happy.


I know this is very unlikely, but that's what makes Warhammer so uber cool. It could even be made into a campaign of vengance for the Eldar against the Humans.

[Athair]

Nah, wouldn't happen. The larger somthing is, the easier for the Seers to notice it (even with birthday parties :bandit: ). If it is large enough (ie mass search for a Craftworld) then the Seers just go "Ok, prod here, poke there, launch Ork Waaagh in human sector, turn on highly advanced TV, stick in tape, push record button with mind, and done :D ."
Wouldn't happen like that, but you get the idea.

[The Collector]

So the Eldar are like the Second Foundation, [Asimov reference. Do not discuss Asimov. Or Foundation. Stay on topic] able to further their agendas by manipulation of races like puppets?

[firefly31]

looks like that yeah. and i'd like to make the point that all craftworlds are different sizes and stronger in dif aspects so an imperial battlething crashing into a craftworld like beil-tan would not destroy it simply because the size has got to be about 20 times the size of jupiter, and i dont rekon the imperium is willing to sacrifice the experienced crew that it would require. if you tried to crash into ulthwe we simply wouldn't be there due to supirior farseers. crashing into iyaden wouldn't really matter really as there all dead anyway and saim-hann have gotta be almost impossible to catch! aloitac have sent a load of their guys off the craftworld to become pathfinders so crash into them and u've got ten thousand little aloitac spread across the galaxy anyway and i find that most other craftworld are based on one of these so ur just not gonna get em

[Kaldaris]

Craftworlds that are described as small planets are the ones that escaped the The Fall. they have expanded significantly over the course of millions of of years and definately aren't "Small planets" anymore.Craftworlds don't have just 1 Farseer scrying out the Future, they have a whole slew of em. The term "Dying race" doesn't fit anymore,Fluff has remained too stagnant-The Eldar Population would have increased by now.

[Cailet]

Although the constant war is a bit of a downer on a small population.

[Kaptin Zed]

The term "Dying race" doesn't fit anymore,Fluff has remained too stagnant-The Eldar Population would have increased by now.

The Eldar reproductive cycle is too slow and too restrictive to counteract the rate at which Eldar are dying (via combat or otherwise) or in some cases, falling to Slaanesh.

They are a "dying race" because their death rate exceeds their birth rate, regardless of how many planets they have, filled to the brim with Eldar.


o the Eldar are like the Second Foundation, [Asimov reference. Do not discuss Asimov. Or Foundation. Stay on topic] able to further their agendas by manipulation of races like puppets?

Exactly. But negatively speaking, Farsight is so vague and far-reaching, even to the Farseers themselves, that sometimes the immediate effects of their actions might be devastating to a Craftworld, or any number of innocent civilizations, only to lead to a much greater good 40,000 years or more down the line.

[firefly31]

zed has a point with the farsight thing. one craftworld down but the man driving the battleship may have grown to be a great sucsessor to the emporrer. evacuate the craftworld, 1,000 eldar lives for those who didn't leave or 100,000 eldar lives for letting this man live

[Paradise]

Still, the only thing that could stop the Eldar are the dyson sphere. It grows for every being(actually, just anything) that is killed by the hand of a necron.

The Deceiver is far better at foreseeing things than the Farseers, it has often been mentioned. In both technology and intelligence, the machines are superior!

Haha :D

[firefly31]

then why haven they done it yet? why havent they steered the SM in the direction of a postion they know the eldar will be?

[Athair]

Of COURSE the Deciever is better than a Farseer!!! He's got enough power to be considered a God, for crying out loud!

Anyway, having 100+ Farseers scrying the future cuts down on the chances that they will miss something.

[firefly31]

exactly!

[Cailet]

Thus endeth all reasonable counter-arguments.

[Paradise]

Not really, the Dyson sphere keeps growing, and it will not stop growing, before all life has ended. It's unstoppable...

[firefly31]

has anyone noticed we havent reached a sensible conclusion yet?after seven pages!?

[Shnabbled]

"The original proposal simply assumed there would be enough solar collectors around the star to absorb the starlight, not that they would form a continuous shell. Rather, the shell would consist of independently orbiting structures, around a million kilometres thick and containing more than 1e5 objects. But various science fiction authors seem to have misinterpreted the concept to mean a solid shell enclosing the star, usually having an inhabitable surface on the inside, and this idea was so compelling that it has been the main use of the term in science fiction. The earliest appearance of this version seems to be Robert Silverberg's novel Across a Billion Years. "

http://www.nada.kth.se/~asa/dysonFAQ.html#WHAT

Images: http://users.rcn.com/jasp.javanet/dyson/

[Sir Guppy]

has anyone noticed we havent reached a sensible conclusion yet?after seven pages!?

i think once was reached a long time ago, just some people (like me :D ) are dragging the thread out.

[firefly31]

so what was the conclusion?

[Sir Guppy]

well this was really my conclusion that i posted back on page 2

" i reckon the imperium could take out an eldar craft world, lets face it - its only really a rather large space station the sort of stuff imperial fleet tackle quite often. dont get me wrong im not saying it would be easy, you would need a massive fleet for a start (although Pacificus and Solar fleets is prolly an over kill, think you over estimate the power of a craft world) i think if the imperium really felt like it could assemble a force large enough to destory a craft world.

but then you would have the problems of a predictably high casulty rate. the actually planning, building and collection of a very large fleet. finding the craft world and making the attack. these problems would be made even more difficult by the farseers ability to see the attack, and also bringing such a large portion of forces together in one area means many other areas would be made significantly weaker."

i can see this as the only reasonable conclusion. a craft world isnt invincible but, the it is difficult to destory. this is the only conclusion that i can see statisfying both sides of the argument. a craft world can be destoryed but only with great difficulty

[firefly31]

i admit thats the opnly conclution to satisfy evry1 but page 2? i hadn't reached my own personal conclusion til well after that!?

[Sir Guppy]

well whats taking you so long? the last 5 pages have just been like 4 people digging up old arguments. come on lets make this thread reach 100 posts.

[firefly31]

how many more do we need?

[Sir Guppy]

1 more after this. so yeah craft worlds suck- hmmmm

[LiQuiD]

yeah well i nkow my conclusion: WTF wuld u even try? i mean its possible but how fucken stupid wuld u have to be to atack a craftworld, full of pissed of eldar who r generaly peaceful to humanity anyway? yeah at the same time lets purge the eye of terror of evil ugly loooking things and plant flowers all over the place. my conclusion is they have a lot lot lot more to worry about then a CW of eldar doing relativly no harm, cept scaring the odd farmer once in a while, and seemingly takeing casaulties for doing that to. Eldar are underated, but thats what makes them cool, coz everyones surprised when u kick their ass!

[KingKupo]

you do are aware that the eldar are responsible for the ork invasions on amaggedon? because to me that don't seem to be the actions of a race that is peacefull against humanity(and let's not forget the constant "mon keigh" phrase.)

[Sir Guppy]

lol the eldar arnt peaceful, they are nasty. are why wouldnt you destory a craft world, its an enemy ship, it should be destoryed, weakens the enemy strengthens your position. the eldar are arrogant and cruel they should be wiped out to further the glory of mankind.

[Kaldaris]

Well for one thing It would be suicidal to attack a craftworld(Either way the attacking fleet would lose). No one is peaceful although one could argue the Tau are.The pathetic existence of your race shall be wiped out long before the Rhana Dandra

[Sir Guppy]

Well for one thing It would be suicidal to attack a craftworld(Either way the attacking fleet would lose). No one is peaceful although one could argue the Tau are.The pathetic existence of your race shall be wiped out long before the Rhana Dandra

o hear we go again.

you cant just claim that the craft world is invincible. craft worlds are just heavily defended planets. the imperium attack heavily defened planets all the time. im not saying it would be easy to destroy a craft world, but you cant claim its impossible.

[Cailet]

It is not invincible but if you imagine the Planet Killer then multiply every combat-relevant factor by fifty (barring crew size) to be a small Craftworld I'd say it is a damn good comparison.

The time, effort and dedication are too great to destroy it. Invasion is a possibility, indeed Biel-Tan has had to move against Dark Eldar threatening to bring the Imperium down on them but again it is a costly endeavour, remember that a whole beefed-up 'Nid splinter fleet was wiped out by Iyanden, at a major cost admittedly but a 'nid fleet is more massive than all but the greatest Imperial armadas and far more heavily crewed with less regard for casualties.

[firefly31]

yeah!

[Cailet]

Now can this thread be locked please?

[firefly31]

nooooooooooooo!

[Sir Guppy]

i think hes right this thread should be locked. its getting stupid now. your killing the soul of the thread by bringing up old arguments.

i think most of us here agree a craft world could be destoryed, but only at great cost.

[firefly31]

yeah i agree its just this is the only decent thread for me at the mo

Double Post

(i dont agree about stopping the thread)

[Sir Guppy]

yeah i know but the threads dead. we are just digging up old points. we need a new thread. the battle capabilites of sumthink else now. that that it will be much good to me tommorw im going to america WOOHOO and ill effectivily beaway from home for 3 weeks.

[Kaldaris]

It is not invincible but if you imagine the Planet Killer then multiply every combat-relevant factor by fifty (barring crew size) to be a small Craftworld I'd say it is a damn good comparison.

The time, effort and dedication are too great to destroy it. Invasion is a possibility, indeed Biel-Tan has had to move against Dark Eldar threatening to bring the Imperium down on them but again it is a costly endeavour, remember that a whole beefed-up 'Nid splinter fleet was wiped out by Iyanden, at a major cost admittedly but a 'nid fleet is more massive than all but the greatest Imperial armadas and far more heavily crewed with less regard for casualties.

I never said it was invincible, I meant that any direct attack on a craftworld will have never succeeded. Anywho Craftworlds are more than Capable of defending themselves therefore bringing this thread an end.

Oh and somebody do plz start another battle capabilites thread :D

[Sir Guppy]

It is not invincible but if you imagine the Planet Killer then multiply every combat-relevant factor by fifty (barring crew size) to be a small Craftworld I'd say it is a damn good comparison.

but now your saying that craft world can destroy whole planets. their is nothing in the background to suggest they can.

kaldaris - by saying that a direct attack on a craft world would never succeed suggests that you feel it to be invulnerable.

craft worlds are covered in guns, they are cities. its just like a planet. direct attacks can succeed a big enough fleet could destory the defenses of planet and so they can do the same to a craftworld.

and anyway ive just though of something that could mess up a craft world. Blackstone fortresses, now they are nasty.

Also when i say destory a craft world. i dont mean blow it down to its smallets parts. i manily mean recking the surface, the city on top, and killing off or capturing the population.

but ive had enough of this thread. we are both digging up our few arugments now and its getting dull.

someone start a cool new thread, how about the battle capabilites of a one of those odd kroot spaceships. nah too easy it would die very easily, to a concerted attack, like from a battleship.


oooo how about the battle capabilites of the Dark Angles Fortress Monastry - The Rock. eh? anyone got any ideas?

[Kaldaris]

Yes I say a direct attack is futile because Craftworlds are swarming with Eldar ships.

I have no Arguement with the blackstones since those Eldar warpcannons knock out stars.

Eldar are through out the craftworld not just on the surfice ;)

I agree a new thread of something else should be started.

[LiQuiD]

YAY!! thought of a good scenario for 40k, a battle for the remains of a dead craftworld, e.g. orcs vs tyranids vs marines vs eldar, they all want the wreckage for their own purposes's eg SM want it for the technology (especialy the plasma weaponry) eldar want to recover it or at very least make sure that no other race will ever delve into its secrets, orcs just wana stick onto there gigantic ball of space hulk, and nids just wana have fun rumbling around on it.....

i think i might actuaLy make that eventualy, wuld b cool with all the eldar biuldings half wrecked and all, besides you never really see a craftworld being used for a battlefield, when u got all these eldar at the front of there codex ON a craftworld shootling lots stuff

[Cailet]

That would be a Carnage mission then.

The CW cannot destroy a world save by blasting away for months however it could extirpate all life pretty damn fast.

[Athair]

Actually, it sounds like a 'Capture the Hulk' mission.
"OOooo, shiny red button..."

[yetanotherplayer]

This is a little off topic, but it seems the thread has been so for a bit. What is this "Mon Keigh" thing? A derisive Eldar term for Humanity?

Anyone notice that Mon Keigh is... MONKEY! Either the Eldar know something about our evolutionary forebears, or someone at GW isn't that creative...

[Col_Gaunt]

NEW PLAN!!!

I need a space suit, and a hammer and chisel.

Heres the plan

Imp Fleet exits warp after finding a CW, gets close but not to close eldar are like 'WTF???' cos imp fleet are just circling them goin 'hu hu hu hu' eldar are still goin 'wtf???'
at this point I jump out an airlock in my spacesuit, hammer and chisel in opposing hands work on my backstroke and head for the craftworld.
Imps are still circlin distractin
Eldar 'wtf???'
'hu hu hu hu hu hu'
'wtf????'
'hu hu hu hu hu hu'
'wtf????'
anyways. eventually I get to the CW...now the eldar are thinkin about a big threat like a fleet tryin to blast em, and so i reckon i could get past easily
Farseers dudes dont notice me psychically, because I dont reckon my brains developed enough for them to notice it as more than possibly a gnat buzzing in there psychic ear(lets face it i'm stupid, i've just jumped out an airlock with only a hammer and chisel to take on a craftworld)
so imp fleet distracting circlin 'hu hu hu hu hu hu hu'
eldar 'wtf???'
hu hu hu hu hu hu hu
wtf???
tap tap tap
HA now you werent expectin that, of course hte eldar cant here this tappin cos its in the void of space where theres no sound
but cunningly it is ME chiseling away at the wraithbone!!! muahahhahaha

hu hu hu hu
wtf???
hu hu hu hu
wtf???
ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
now at first the eldar wont worry bout the hull breaches its no biggy. but before its too late they realise the imp fleet is just a distraction, HULL BREACHS everywhere!!! they suffocate, I chisel somemore big hole for me to get through, then i just go find that soul matrix big gravestone thing chisel it in half and take some bits as a souvernier.
the eldar fleet outside meanwhile are still distracted, they've ignored the cries from the CW saying there watching the imp fleet its doin nothing.
so i just jump out the hole in the craft world, think i'll work on my doggy paddle now, get back to imp fleet, fleet jumps out, eldar fleet looks over its shoulder one dead CW

god damn i'm a genius

all you people with your guns and ramming pfffft so archaic

[Athair]

Mon Kiegh was an ancient race that fed off the Eldar. They are long since deceased, but the Eldar use the term to describe any non-Eldar. Its taken up the meaning 'that which must be destroyed'.

I wonder where Peer is? Usually he's already locked these threads by now (especially when asked).

Oh and Col_Gaunt, better hope the Wraithbone isn't electrified :D

[yetanotherplayer]

@ Col Gaunt - Archaic, yet sane.

@Athair - Thank you.

[Col_Gaunt]

Athair - its ok my spacesuit is rubber

Kushans_wrath - but when has sane ever been fun

[Cailet]

Warp spiders (the original ones) have no respect for rubber armour. You will be shredded before your second stroke of the hammer.

[Paradise]

I love 'Mon-keigh'. I think anyone can see the resemblance with monkey. The eldar must be speaking of Jokaero, the technology mimicking apes, that's my guess, place your bets. :)

[Coey]

But Joekaro have the potential to far outclass even the Eldar in technology, it's just that their monkey's.

And I think the word "mon-keigh" is used for a race that are bellow themselves (the Eldar that is).

[Kaldaris]

Are you kidding me? The Joekaro would in no way surpass Eldar technology. and Mon-Keigh is used to describe anything non-eldar(what an easy language).

[Coey]

Jokearo have the potential to be one of the most technolgically advanced races in the damn UNIVERSE! They can make a ship out of a prison cell. Every single Jokearo has the mind of a technological genius.

[Kaldaris]

They wouldn't be able to make a ship out of a prison cell.The Joekaro are a bunch of monkeys :P I could hardly see them be the Masters of technology.

[Coey]

'tis true.

[Paradise]

I'm talking about the first race Eldar called mon-keigh. They have the potential to be one of the most advanced race, possibly even more advanced than the eldar, or maybe even the Necrons(though, all necrons are technogical geniuses and think more logically, so they should be superior).

The necrons can build anything, the same thing can be said about the Jokaero.

[Athair]

Mon-kiegh were beasts native to the Eldar homeworld. Their diets consited of Eldar, Eldar, and other stuff. The Eldar eventually grew more powerful then them, and destroyed the entire race.

Joekaro cannot make a ship out of a cell. They simply use whatever you give them to make means of escape. They don't even have a language! I don't even think they are GW legal anymore. They probably droped them like they did the squats...

[Kaptin Zed]

The Jokaero are mentioned in the Necrons' Codex, along with the Krork reference.

Jokaero have a technological aptitude higher than any other race, but don't appear to have any other sentient thought or emotion. They were the originators of the Digi-Lasers like Captain Tycho wears.

[Cailet]

They are not a TT army because they aren't warlike but very wacky. They used to be in TT in the RT era going around making random stuff out of dead vehicles etc.

[Kaptin Zed]

A lotta wacky things used to be in the RT era. :D

[Cailet]

Damn right, almost as much as the old Realms of Chaos stuff.

[novafix]

Sorry to but in late but here's my take on the "Can the Imperium ram a Craftworld to Death?"

No. For all the reasons above, getting close enough to one with a fleet big enough to actually pose a threat to it would unbalance the defences of the Imperium elsewhere and leave them painfully open to attack from just about everyone else in that sector. Assuming that they *did* get a fleet of that magnitude and decide to have a crack at the Craftworld, the Farseers would detect it due to it's collosal impact on Eldar fortunes. Come to think of it, even if they *didn't* detect it, someone would notice one of the biggest fleets the imperium has ever assembled massing somewhere. Warp travel is inherently unpredictable and the ships would arrive days/weeks/months apart so a co-ordinated attack is very unlikely using the Warp to jump close and overwhelm them.
The only reason that Iyanden couldn't escape is because the Hive Fleet cast a Shadow in the Warp and they weren't able to use the Web Way to escape. So - assuming that the Imperium warp jumped nearby, the time it would take for the fleet to arrive would allow the Craftworld the time it needs to bugger off somewhere else. "You may as well try to catch Starlight as to engage the Eldar in Battle" I think one Imperial Captain put it...

Also, to be fair, Imperial ships are pretty crap. They have *MANUALLY* loaded Torpedoes for crying out loud. The reason they fail 1 in 6 times to carry enough Ordnance is because the crews keep dropping the Torpedoes and messing up the winch mechanisms...They're hulking behemoths of ships and they rely on firepower of Broadsides to win battles rather than their speed & manouverability.

[Robert Frazer]

Yea, was it decreed in aeons past by the inspired agency of a divinely-favoured sage (of whose magnificent wisdom it was so great that it cannot be quantified), now described in these times only with the venerable title, "Robert Frazer", that he should refer to the ledger of saintly exclamations and postulations, which we define in this year by the holy affixion, "White Dwarf". And this providentially-guided course of events led "Robert Frazer" (of whose magnificent wisdom it was so great that it cannot be quantified) to employ the Emperor-blessed course of psychic insight to translate its findings to the grim years of the Dark Millenium, to enlighten both noble humans and regal aliens alike in its lucid clarity and blessed revelation.

[LINK]It was, indeed, only a section of Hive Fleet Kraken, rather than a complete swarm, that assaulted Iyanden (WD 218) (http://glorysblaze.org/robert_frazer/scan0003.jpg)

[LINK]A study of the feasibility of military starship manoeuvering. (WD 227) (http://glorysblaze.org/robert_frazer/scan0004.jpg)

Well, it's a thread that concerns Eldar, so I thought a degree of blatant arrogance would be only appropriate... :smash:

[Stewie_Griffin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cailet
Holofields wouldn't save a Craftworld but wraithbone is bloody tough. the ships in BFG are not exact replics of 'reality', rather they have to capture the 'spirit' of the ship ie an eldar ship is light compared to Imperial shipsQUOTE]

Um, you are missing the point - we're talking about a craftworld here, not an eldar battleship. A craftworld would only suffer minor damage if any. Like many other people have said - the imperial ship would actually have to get through the fleet surrounding the craftworld. Most of the ships would probably be armed with weapons like heavy pulsars or more powerful weapons. Any debris would most likely be destroyed before impact aswell.
Holofields would save a craftworld because to cause any major hull damage, even through collision, you would have to penetrate or deactivate the holofields beforehand, and not even the toughest imperial battleships have that kind of power when on a coliision course, they would transfer all power to the forward shields and all thrusters/engines.

[Robert Frazer]

Actually, holofields wouldn't contribute to a craftworld's resilience to damage at all. Holofields are not armour - hence why they're referred to as holofields rather than simply void shields. They disrupt imaging of a target - dissolving into a kaleipdoscope of confetti if you're a harlequin prancing in a dance of death, or meddling with the engine signature if one's equipped on a spaceship - making it more difficult to lock on and hit. Once you've scored a hit, though, holofields have all the staying power of fresh air.

A massive Craftworld would present so large and obvious a target (and move so t-e-r-r-i-b-l-y slowly, and remember that holofields only activate when the user is in motion) that a global holofield would be ineffectual. Or simply, it would require too enormous a power source to be feasible. Craftworlds benefit from a myriad of defences, but holofields aren't one of them.

[Stewie_Griffin]

Ok, maybe i was wrong about the holofield - but surely Craftworlds would be equipped with some sort of void shield?

[Shas'o Uziel]

And speaking from experience the Eldar Craftworlds do have shields they have a shield array of a battleship on top of having holofields. They are the epitomy of eldar technology and if you read your stats on BFG it's not a very nice thing to mess with it has a forward mounted weapon called a linear accelerator which works much like a Nova cannon it moves about as fast as any eldar vessel it has 22 banks of pulsar lances strapped with a further more strength 20 battery on either side and has a whopping 24 Hit points as well as being able to launch and sorty about 8 attack craft wings from each of it's bay I played one once and me and my 11 comrades didn't even put a dent in the damn thing let alone cause enough damage to the escorting fleet it's one of those things you hope to never see on a BFG board game.

[Stewie_Griffin]

damn, that must have been pretty damn scary, looks like the eldar aren't so weak after all.

[Shas'o Uziel]

Well it was a freaking nightmare my 2000 point fleet consisted of 2 battleship(Retribution and Emperor) 2battle cruisers(Armageddon and Overlord) and 4 cruisers(Lunar's and Tyrants) of all that only one ship managed to disengage and it had like one hit point left it wasn't pretty I only managed to tag an Eclipse and 2 aurora's and I did score a crit hit on the Craftworld but he repaired it and I only managed to reduce the ships hit points by one. And my allies had about the same including a necron fleet with a tomb ship that couldn't do shit to the damn thing the damn craftworld trashed it in 2 turns and sent the rest of the necron fleet to running for home. shit we had 2 SM players throw 2 battlebarges at the thing only to watch the m get shredded alive and this was just a small craftworld.

[Khai]

The question is...do you really want a ship to be able to take out a planet sized Craftworld? If the answer is yes...lets just look at the logical followups that could be made.

Situation:
The battleship goes into warp...rams the craftworld and everything is destroyed...the Eldar lose one Craftworld and instantly go into hiding with the rest. This is only if that ship could somehow get around the myriad of defenses each Craftworld has...

Logical Followup:
Ships capable of warp travel can be used to ram planets anywhere...what does this mean? The Eldar response would totally destroy the Human Imperium. It would not be hard for a strike force to sieze a Battleship...drive it through warp to Earth and destroy everything on the planet...including the Old Guy on his oversized lifesupport...

End Result?
The Imperium falls into another dark age as it's ships are no longer able to traverse the warp...and further warp strikes cannot be made. The Eldar have won and the universe probably falls into chaos as a giant power vacuum is created...

Lesson:
You don't want to be able to do this...and this is why its not possible in the WH 40k universe. If this is possible, then in a matter of days the Human Imperium will end.

[Cailet]

Except the Eldar have a vested interest in the Emperor's continued 'life'.

But yes, if it were all that easy the Imperium's fleets would have one order only 'Ramming Speed!'

[Kaldaris]

Um if a ship goes to warp then the ship is well in the warp and not of the material plane so going to warp would not harm a Craftworld in anyway(however the crew of the imperial ship might get eaten by a Daemon or two in the warp :D ).

[Khai]

yeah, thats another good reason why this doesn't happen.

[Fang]

When thinking of a battleship ramming a craftworld please conjure up the picture in The Return of the Jedi when the SSD crashes into the Deathstar.. if youll note it does practically nothing cept blow a large part up, the Deathstar overall is still functional and hasnt even lost a decent precent of its crew. So as you can see crashing a battleship into a craftworld would do dick on a stick... Also wasting a valuable battleship in such a foolish plan is a waste of the emperors resources. Anyone planning such a attack is obviously a heretic and must be cleansed.

[Brother Lucius]

Indeed, ramming a Craftworld is a useless gesture. However, that is not to say they are invincible. Tyranids came close to destroying a Craftworld once, and were only driven back at bitter cost and the outside help of a returning outcast and his pirates.

However, this is not because an Imperial Ship could not damage the hull. There is the Emporer Capital Ship.

White Dwarf 139,140

"The huge Emperor ship can only manoeuvre at slow speeds, turning majestically to bring its broadsides to bear. But by driving its engines to their very limit it can surge forward at ramming speed. At the front of an Emperor ship is a massive energy ram ablaze with leaping bolts of raw power. When the ship rams at full speed it is near-invincible, smashing through even the most heavily-armoured hull and leaving its shattered enemy as a cloud of drifting debris in its wake."

And the Tyrant Battleship

"Like the Emperor, the Tyrant has a large energy ram on its prow, constantly rippling with sparks of barely-restrained power. With its manoeuvrability at speed, the Tyrant can often move into a ramming position and literally carve its way through the enemy fleet."

Ships could actually Ram through a Craftworld. But what would be the point?

[Magus]

The stats I got for a craftworld in BFG (based on an old BFG mag, I think, its in army builder) is a disgustingly nasty battleship, but it's not invulnerable. However, this represents a craftworld like Einairen (haven't heard of it? neither have I, just made up an obscure name), not a monster like Iyanden.

Shas'o, assuming my stats are correct, you were playing against a made up vessel. 22 banks of pulsar lances? I dont think so...

BTW, Lucius, the energy ram you mentioned is no longer in BFG, the Emperor-class is actually crappy at ramming actions, having no reinforced prow armor (has a mass of sensors and weapons instead)

[DDZ_Goldstrike]

I'm not so much curious about the effects of the ram as it's aftermath.

What do you do if you get stuck in the craftworld? Boarding action?

[SubZero]

lolz, firstly if you boarded a Craftworld you better have the adeptus demonicus with you because there will be so many Avatars summoned one after another, it would be unreal.

Secondly, The Bonesingers can manipulate the semi-living material 'wraithbone' by psychic thought. They could create a 300m thick Bone tomb around the ship that crashed/landed on the craftworld.

Thirdly, craft worlds can cloak with the help of a good Seer + Council, and are capable of utlising the Warp (NOT THE WEBWAY). And would do so only under EXTREMELY dangerous situations.