Tau railrifles, a complete waste?

[Dimension]

well, as some of you may know, the Tau got gifted with a smaller version of the railguns found on broadsides. it can be carried by infantry!

it shoots 36 inches, is a strength 6 AP 3 weapon (not too shabby, right?), can pin units (ooh! nifty!), and comes in at 10 points extra. it can be taken by pathfinders, and thats where all the trouble starts.

pathfinders can come in squads of 4-8, and a max of 3 units (not the shas'ui) in a squad can be fitted with a railrifle.

here's the shit part. the other units are fitted with a weapon of HALF the range (Pulse carbines). of course you can get around it. take a 4 man squad, fit three rifles, and have the 4th guy upgraded to a shas'ui with cybernetic multitracker. this way, he can use his markerlight on one unit, while the other guys of his squad pound on another target from relative safety. since the markerlight has a range of 36 inches as well, everything should be in the green right?

wrong. every pathfinder unit requires a devilfish transport. it comes in at 80 points, so is damn expensive (damn marines and their 50 points transports). furthermore, a devilfish can carry 12 troops. so you're only filling it up with ONE THIRD of its possible space. what a huge waste of points.

so you think "well, if thats the case, then why not fill up the slots?". this would leave you with 5 pathfinders with carbines and 3 with railrifles, and you have the range discrepancy dilemma again. but hey! you can outfit those railrifles with multi trackers too, which means that you can finally shoot at different targets! but there are two drawbacks. one, you're paying 7 points per railrifle for it. which means that those railrifle weilding pathfinder suddenly cost 29 points a piece. rather hefty, right? and it doesn't stop there. when targeting another unit, the railrifle now can overheat! well doesn't this just kick ass?

i have since reached the conclusion that large squads are impractical since they can never realize their full potential and remain half-assed no matter what they do, and small, efficient squads suffer from their hefty 80 points transport.

either way, you're fucked imo. there could be three ways to ameliorate this however.
1) have an 8 man group of firewarriors ride with the 4 man squad in the devilfish. however, you can't put the group in forward locations now, since its no pure pathfinder force no more. not to mention it might be illegal for two squads to use the same transport.
2) make the railrifles available as an upgrade to firewarrior squads. this would personally make a lot of sense to me, similar to the way heavy/special weapons are included in space marine squads. however, the rules do not allow this. why? other than a vague reference that the unstable multitracker causing the overheat doesn't meet the firecaste's standards, there is no reason, really. I wouldn't get multitrackers in that case either, as the range discrepancy is merely 6 inches (pulse rifles clock have a 30 inch range).
3) Design a smaller, cheaper troop transport, specifically for squads that are 6-8 men large and below. would the vehicle design rules allow for such a thing?

anyways, i'm done ranting. what are your experiences with the tau railrifle. do you agree with what i say? do you disagree? have i overlooked a crucial piece of information?

[Tegadil]

I think you're just over-reacting. You've got a very nice weapon on your hands, but you can't seem to get over the fact that you'll either not be using all your weapons or you'll not be filling a transport. To me, those seem like poor things to get hung up on. If you don't want to waste your transport, just fill it to 8 men. They provide extra fire, extra wounds, and they can pin multiple units if you want to use multi-targety thingies. Even if you take casualties, the Tau (with their bonding and Ethereal) don't usually have to sweat falling back and all that.

If you don't want to potentially kill your pathfinders and not waste fire, think like a Dark Eldar. Use your Devilfish to Tank Shock (they are tanks, aren't they?) with that nifty shrapnel launcher. Use em to block line of sight to your precious troops. Create supporting fire for your Firewarriors. Transports on their own are certainly not useless.

The weapon is good. Whatever difficulties you may find with the pathfinders serves to help balance it. I don't think it needs amelioration, and it definitely does not need to be added to Firewarrior squads (with such a great basic gun, who needs heavy weapons?).

[Ramrod]

i have never found it to be a problem, i love my rail rifles. and i spare no expense on upgrades. a 2500 point army leaves a lot of room to bulk up your elites and fast attack, so i do. 29 points IS very expensive, but it helps to have a longer-ranged weapon that has the ability to seriously threaten the tougher enemy infantry.

fire warrior squads have no heavy or special weapons (i hope chapter approved solves this), so having a longer-ranged powerful weapon that can be moved around fast and placed in a forward position is a big plus in my book.

and yeah, it is illegal to move around units from different squads in the same transport. the transport is part of the squad its attached to, no matter which race we're talking about.

[Aquila]

I play a mechanized tau army with alot of tanks, and I am cursed with missing every railgun shot I make.

My pathfinder squad is the lynchpin in my army. They are so crucial that I bought them everything I can give them. I have 8 men with 3 railrifles with TARGET LOCK (NOT MULTITRACKER), and a shas'ui with markerlight and target lock. I even give them EMP grenades... just in case :D

When the game starts, I use their free move to get them into position. Deploy from the tank to some kind of cover, preferable a few inches in, center of the battlefield. Every turn, my four normal guys markerlight a tank for my broadsides. The shas'ui markerlights vehicles for the hammerheads or seeker missles. The Railrifles target enemy troops, or light vehicles.

The tactical possibilities of this squad are endless when outfitted right. With seeker missles flying left and right, broadside fire being brought in very accurately, and railgun shots pinning even marines, I couldn't live without them. Most enemies think like you, though, and don't realize how important they are. It's beautiful.

The important mental leap you have to make here, is that units should not always be chosen simply because "they usually make up their points value in kills." I hear that line alot, and honestly, its tactically ignorant. On the battlefield, your troops value does not come from their weapons or armor but how they contribute to the overrall battleplan. The pathfinder squad is one of those wonderful units that even when not killing droves of enemies, will make the rest of your army more efficient. Learn to love them!!

[Dimension]

The weapon is good. Whatever difficulties you may find with the pathfinders serves to help balance it. I don't think it needs amelioration, and it definitely does not need to be added to Firewarrior squads (with such a great basic gun, who needs heavy weapons?).

true, but this way a firewarrior squad can pin a unit without waiting until the enemy is 18 inches away. 18 inches is a little close for comfort when i have some hormagaunts or other fast close combat units advancing to my position. with merely 18 inches to go, those units can get to close combat within the next turn. not to mention that i have cut effective firepower down by the number of models equipped with carbines. I'm losing that firepower for 12 inches.

anyways, much of my grudge might be derived from the fact that i want to find ways to make them points effective in small games (1000 points and below).

its just that i really love the weapon and am frustrated because i can't sanely justify deploying it in a 500 point game, and i don't really have the money to plan for armies much bigger than that. i need to have a self-sufficient 500 point army, before doing a bigger one. since a pathfinder squad clocks in at 95 plus 80 (175 points 1 devil fish, 1 shas'ui with target lock and 3 railriflers). for comparison, i can get 6 stealth suits for 180.

if i use the large squad approach, i have now an expense of 156 plus 80 (236 points 1 devil fish, 1 shas'ui with target lock, 3 railriflers and 4 regulars). for 240 points, i can get 20 drones that can also pin and *could* markerlight enemy targets (forgeworld upgrade, didn't see the rules yet), are more mobile, and can join my commander easily.

in conclusion, i dunno. the big squad might be worth it, granted the dice fairy blesses the squad so the rails don't overheat, but the rest? meh.

[demace]

well i dont have any pathfinders as yet, but i think GW shouldve gone with the original idea of firewarriors with railguns, as seen by one of they're captions in the upcoming thingy.. on the site.. here was the pic

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/demace/w40k/taufirewarrior_railgun.jpg

but anyway, back on topic, just because you paid for the devilfish with the pathfinders doesnt mean it can only be used with the pathfinders (does it?) i mean, you could drop them off near cover or something then go off and tank shock enemy troops.. or use it as a transport for other troops..

also, the reason for taking pathfinders is mainly - MARKERLIGHTS..
same range as rail rifles.. so, in the end you end up marking targets as well as killing others..

out of my inexperience, i still think they're good, although the point costs suck...

[Exetus]

I think you're blowing this way out of proportion due to yur own reasoning which is making them fit within your points cost. Fact of the matter is, you have another weapon capable of dealing instant death to just about any unit in the game. The fact that you have a S6 AP3 weapon guarantees no save for almost all troops and instant death on most of the others. Some people say that the TAU are slightly weak but I say those people are fulla shit. As far as a ranged army goes, they totally kick ass and the addition of the rail rifles only makes them more deadly. Look at it like this. Before there were rail rifles, it was still cost effective to take a full 8-man Pathfinder squad to markerlight the enemy. You KNOW thsoe guys are probably going to die unless you can get them in, mark your target and then load them up to move to another point on the map. So now, you have the ability to hit AT RANGE with a deadly weapon as well as markerlight, giving you the ability to knock down units starting at 30 inches. You pay for it, but it's a small price to pay for doubling the effective range of your squad with the only variables on how you roll to hit and to wound.

[BizzB]

Hey on the PS2 game "Fire Warrior" the fire warrior you play gets railguns and burst cannons, I would like it to be like Space Marines,like 1 fire warrior with a burst cannon and 1 with a railgun.

[element7]

There sure are a lot of rail rifle threads today :)

[Triceron]

That pic you have there Demace, those are actually pathfinders, not fire warriors. I'm guessing that was a misprint and someone goofed up and called em Fire Warriors. You can tell because they're not as well-armored as Fire Warriors. The lack of thigh/upper arm armor is a key distinction between Pathfinders and FireWarriors.

Forgeworld is releasing the Pathfinder skimmers so maybe that will be a cheaper transport solution for em rather than a hefty Devilfish each and every time. I think the Pirahna will be like a mini devilfish used for offense while the Tetra might be more of a transport for Pathfinders. Maybe that will help Tau tactics in the future.

[BizzB]

I see what you mean Triceron...dont Fire warriors have there sept on a giant arm thing...and plates on thier legs???

[Aquila]

Every Tau that you have in your army is a fire warrior. All pathfinders are fire warriors, Crisis suit troops are fire warriors, your commander is a fire warrior, vehicle drivers are fire warriors... only the Ethereal isn't.

A pathfinder is only a specialized fire warrior. So it wasn't a misprint. But yea, those models are pathfinders :bandit:

[Tau Commander]

If you read the Tau fluff the tau are made of castes. The fire caste is the warriors. The tau believe that no tau is greater than the other and all tau shall treat eachother with the same respect. However there is honor distrubuted('la, 'ui, 'vre, 'el, 'o) for every caste that is the system. Fio for earth, shas for fire, aun for etheral and i 4got the other ones :blah: im supposed to be a fanatic.

[Di$array]

in a onld WD they did a battle report based on the game fire warrior where the tau fort the Choas and the tau had a new special charater, can you guest it??... it was Kais from the game, he was armed with a rail rifle and alot more stuff but i cannot remember.

[ThirdDanScoota]

Ok, lets PLEASE get away from that degenerate of a game. BizzB, you went off topic and dragged everyone with you. Please do your best to stay on topic, as what you like from Fire Warrior has nothing to do with this thread. I'm not having a go at you, just reminding you that the Moderators wont like it much. Now, back to it, they are powerful weapons that make Space Marine players (like myself) a little worried, especially when they arent the only Rail Guns in the Tau list. They're powerful, powerful weapons that cost a mere 10pts each, and complaining about it? Get real. Thats cheaper than a Marine Missile Launcher, and you can only have one of those per squad at best.

Also, try your best to remember that each Space Marine is an elite warrior in his own right, unlike Tau Firewarriors, or any other basic Tau infantry. It makes sense that a Firewarrior wouldnt be able to get this mighty gun, and Pathfinders would probably be able to find better use for it anyway, and they are more specialised. Far from useless or too expensive.

[BizzB]

Sorri but i was making a point about Fire Warrior having more weapons to choose from apart from the pulse rifle and pulse carbine.
Any way...why moan about railrifles when there equiped on Fast Attack!
Thats like scouts with rocket launchers!

[Aquila]

Durr... its like scouts with sniper rifles. Oh wait, scouts CAN take sniper rifles. Whaddya know :bandit:

And they can take missile launchers too...

[ThirdDanScoota]

BizzB, just because its in a PS2/PC game (crappy one), doesnt mean it would work in TT. Now, you DO realise how buff Marines are, right? They have the stamina and strength to actually carry these weapons, as well as the elite status to give them permission. Tau need Battlesuits to accomodate heavy weapons like that, Marines dont. Also, Thats part of the Marines' flexibility advantage. The Tau have the nastiest basic firearm in the game, they REALLY dont need it. Also, Tau Pathfinders are made to give some fire, but mainly for markerlighting targets for Their nasty, nasty missiles and Broardsides. Pathfnders also get a free move at all times, SM Scouts have infiltrate.

Basically, just because one army has something unique, doesnt mean all should, especially one as nasty as Tau.

[Warcrier]

Id like to add that the picture of the fire warriors with rail rifles is doctored... if you look at it the background waspirecmeled together and the name changed... not accusing BizzB directly, but it is a fake picture, maybe made to try and prove a false point...

[Taiidan Admiral]

Mmmm....railguns....tasty.

[BizzB]

well sorri all for saying the wrong thing!?!

[ThirdDanScoota]

We arent trying to put you down or anything, its just that its best to have the right information, and it makes sense that they dont get those nasty, nasty things, as Firewarriors already have the nastiest basic firearm in the game, and if everyone could get the Rail Rifle... Ouch for Space Marines, just wouldnt be fair having their basic squads have large amounts of these guns, especially since the'yre cheaper than SM heavy weapons.

[BizzB]

Im not saying all of them just maybe one or two like the SM have there rocket launchers and flame trowers

[ThirdDanScoota]

Have faith in GWs choices!

[Aquila]

Thirddanscooter, since we're on the topic of HAVING THE RIGHT INFORMATION, rail rifles aren't cheaper than space marine heavy weapons... they cost exactly the same as a missile launcher - 10 points.

[Dimension]

and they imo force a squad (that relies on mobility to survive) to stand still. BAD.

[Ramrod]

dimension has a point. i bought enough pathfinders to make a squad of 6 in two configurations: shas'ui, 2 carbines, 3 rail rifles OR shas'ui, 5 carbines.

i use the first configuration very rarely, although its pretty ok when fighting IG or orks, because of pinning! w00t! when using them like this, i replace their 'forward scout' job with another squad (dimension and i already discussed using human auxiliaries, although i had originally used my non-upgraded stealth team).

[Aquila]

How do you figure that pathfinders depend on mobility to survive? They get a free movement at the beginning of the game to put them into position... after that you better damn well be using those markerlights. After all, thats why you get pathfinders in the first place. If you keep them moving you're not taking advantage of their wargear.

If you want a mobile squad, get firewarriors with pulse carbines...

[Ramrod]

meh, markerlights are not rare in a tau army, not by a longshot. pathfinders just have the advantage of everyone in the squad having them. their armor is not as good as a firewarrior, so thats why they depend on mobility to survive.

like i had said, i use them to hold up the enemy by pinning them, and use a stealthteam shas'vre (or from now on a guevesa'ui) who is further away to use his markerlight.

markerlights have a nice big fat range, so anybody with a markerlight in the army is potentially a pathfinder replacement. on a 4' x 4' table, any markerlight will probably be able to target anyone.

and i'd rather use firewarriors with pulse rifles, since they're the only ones getting a 30" range weapon...

[Aquila]

You use a stealthsuit shas'vre to markerlight enemy units... holy crap that is the stupidest plan I have ever heard. STEALTHSUITS are the ones that rely on mobility to survive. They pump out 3 times as much firepower as your pathfinders, and they are waaay more mobile. So basically you're wasting the heavy firepower squad to use one markerlight, and using the squad that has 6 times as many markerlights as the firepower squad.

And, oh yeah, PATHFINDERS HAVE THE SAME ARMOR AS FIREWARRIORS. Just because the model has a little less armor doesn't mean their save is worse. Geez, do you even have a codex?

[Ramrod]

yeah, it was the stupidest plan ever, which is why i never bothered upgrading them. but now i use my expendable human auxiliary squad as a replacement (how i said dimension discovered that idea in one of my posts).

and stealth teams don't depend on mobility to survive as much as to wreak havoc (their night rules help them survive more). they can take a reasonable beating. and although burst cannons are nice at making your opponent worry about his troops, i hate to burst your bubble, but they aren't too great. even three of them.

and remember, pathfinders have to fire their markerlights at the same target, unless the shas'ui has a target lock. then only he can fire at another target. thanks, but i'll stick to using the carbines.

i'd rather pin an enemy unit with six carbines, designate it with a stealthteam leader's markerlight and fire the pair of burst cannons his teammates have got (just as a matter of principle, although now it will be a human team with lasguns), and have my broadsides pound it with smart missiles.

and yeah, jokes on me about the armor, i thought their save was one point less.

[ThirdDanScoota]

Thirddanscooter, since we're on the topic of HAVING THE RIGHT INFORMATION, rail rifles aren't cheaper than space marine heavy weapons... they cost exactly the same as a missile launcher - 10 points.

*Cough*, ok, i was actually thinking of Devastator prices, which it costs them 20pts, remember that Tactical Squads get a reduced price, and that the Tau also get more Railrifles (half the squad rounding down if i'm not mistaken). You have to take ALL factors into account, the points was just an example of only part of the equation. They also cause pinning, which missile launchers dont, AND they all have markerlights, meaning that they have krak missiles with unlimited range, which hit on a 2+ and that require no line of sight available to them, providing of course you bought them and attatched them to a vehicle. Seems fair to me.

[Piccolo]

I used 2 squads of pathfinders with rail rifles in my V3 Tau list, but with the V4 rules now in use they are not worth it.

[ThirdDanScoota]

How so? Would you care to explain your opinion further? Really, i'm curious.

[Piccolo]

with the new cover rules for markerlights there is no good reason your pathfinders should be doing anyting but marking targets for other weapons. The death of screening in v4 also makes it harder to keep rifle sqauds alive on the board especially since they can't hid behind their own skimmer anymore.

[Blackraine]

Space Marines and only 3 heavy support slots are two good reasons to take rail rifles instead of all markerlights. In a 1500 point game, it's hard for me to field more than one hammerhead... so if I want something to punch through armor, I've gotta take the railgun on that. That leaves my pathfinders on marine sniping duty. 3 rail rifles do a good job at that, then the remaining 5 markerlights can call in missiles. Sure, I could have 8 markerlights calling in missiles, but in the long run, that's more expensive, since a rail rifle gets multiple shots for the same price as a single seeker missile.

Marines, for me at least, are the toughest enemy to kill. Necrons aren't so bad because they don't have much in the way of heavy weapons, but marines just have so many lascannons to deal with my hammerhead and battlesuits, and yet they're still as hard to kill as Necrons, if not harder when you count things like terminators and characters in Artificer armor (though, at least when they die, they stay dead.)

I wouldn't use rail rifles against armies with lighter armor like Eldar, but against heavy armor armies, they're a life saver.

[Piccolo]

If you are needing your fast attack slots to take out medium level threats (heavy infantry and light armor) then you are not putting your elite slots to work in the correct way. Marines are 1 army I have never had a problem killing with my tau.

It doesn't suprise me that you are having trouble since you say you can't get more than 1 head into your army at 1500 points. This means you are wasting alot of points elsewhere on units that because of their bloatedness are not good at doing what they should.

[Dimension]

yeah. field two hammerheads. i mean, hammerheads usually stay under 170 points. if you keep them on the move and in partial cover, they're hard to kill.

besides, if you're up against marines, then some expensive pathfinders aren't really the right thing anyways. personally, i don't expect pathfinders to live very long. instead, take down marines with XV8's. they are versatile and mobile. put plasma guns and missile packs on them for good mid-range firepower. when configured right, XV8's stay under 70 points, so you can field a good number of them in 1500 points.

[Piccolo]

for marine killing crisis suits, run 2 man teams of the fireknife configuration suit. For those who don't know what the fireknife is, plasma, missle pod, multi tracker. If you have an etheral in 1 of your hq slots it makes sure that if 1 of them dies the remaining suit will not have problems with all on your own tests. By being only 2 suits they are easy to keep in cover, hop out and shoot and jump back in cover.

[demace]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/demace/w40k/taufirewarrior_railgun.jpg


That pic you have there Demace, those are actually pathfinders, not fire warriors. I'm guessing that was a misprint and someone goofed up and called em Fire Warriors. You can tell because they're not as well-armored as Fire Warriors. The lack of thigh/upper arm armor is a key distinction between Pathfinders and FireWarriors.

this reply might be a bit late, but the pic i put up, that was the original pic that was in the sneak peeks section.. however later it got changed to "pathfinders with rail rifles" cuz i guess fire warriors with them was a bit too powerful..

but anyway i play tau, i know the difference ;)

[Piccolo]

I will defend demace as well, I remember being quite interested when i thought my fire warrior squads would get a nasty weapon. It wasn't too big of a let down when they made them pathfinder only and I still found a use for them for a while, darn you v4 putting my nice rifles in my case for good.

[Gimpro]

The only reason that GW even invented the Rail Rifle is because no one used Pathfinders, cause they kinda sucked ass. Heres another Reason why Gw loves its sales! But the gun is pretty nifty, except for the fact that if you roll a one? i think the targeting mechanism missfires, and the pathfinders head explodes. Im pretty sure i have the WD with the rules in it... ill check it out later.

[Dimension]

that only happens if you not only have a target lock equipped, but you're using it as well.

the fluff explains it that when the target lock is engaged, it is sometimes overloaded by the guns circuit, causing a lethal feedback. imo they're reaching there, but wtf, its GW.

[Piccolo]

actually the only reason GW made the rail rifle was because of the game Fire Warrior. In that game a few things got invented namely rail rifles and the orca dropship. GW then found a way to work it into the game.