[OPPINION] Late game resources and gameplay

[DarkOMEN]

Just to set the stage, I might note that I am an experienced Starcraft user who plays regularly, and that I am very glad to be a part of the Dawn of War Beta. When Blizzard released Warcraft III, I wasn't all that impressed with the game. I found that Warcraft slid too much of the game onto the shoulders of hero units, and overall, the game wasn't as tactful and fast-paced as said Starcraft. Don't get me wrong, Warcraft is a great game, but I prefer the style and speed of expert Starcraft games.

Dawn of War is a great game, in my oppinion, because it takes the things I personally liked about Warcraft, removes the Hero leveling up, and brings it back down to a fast and competitive level as seen in my favourite game of all time. I'm surprised Blizzard didn't do this... the gameplay rocks!

I have a bit of a problem in Dawn of War... it might be my playing style, but I don't know. In a 1v1 game, I tend to spar with my opponent right from the start, with a second force + builder creeping up to my enemy's base capturing Listening Posts and when I get past the half-way point between our bases, I cannon up. All the while, I tech up and produce more units, and with the excess resources, upgrade my posts so they produce more of that lovely RP. Now, late game, I find myself maxed in supply and with tons of resources with nothing to spend it on! All there is available to do is go offensive cannon stacking, because my unit queue automatically replaces anything I build! Once you establish this ever-deepening well of resources, it's painful not to be able to spend it...

I've played around online with a number of races and found that this pretty much applies for all races except Ork. With Ork I can spend more of this because of the sheer numbers I'm using (I am a 80%+ Zerg player in Starcraft, respectfully). However, Ork doesn't appeal to me much all that much (they don't seem to play with much fluidity... I haven't explored why, though I like their tech being based on numbers... if you play offensively with them, you get owned slightly too much... makes teching up and harassing at the same time difficult maybe?).

Going back to Blizzard games, Warcraft III was about micromanagement (control of individual units) less so than macromanagement (overall base maintainance and massive unit production). Dawn of War has the supply cap and micro of Warcraft, but a taste of the speed and intricacy of Starcraft. Starcraft was about gaining lots of territory and managing a base that ends up covering your half of the map (in experienced games, anyway) where in Warcraft, you might only need to watch over 3-4 gold mines at a time.

I just feel that Dawn of War is trying to establish the economy of Starcraft in a Warcraft III-like environment. I'm not sure... but one thing's for certain. I cannot spend all the resources which I accumulate, which detracts from really competitive late game play in my opinion.

What are other player's thoughts? Get stuck with too much resource at the end of the game which could otherwise be used to overthrow your opponent?

EDIT:
Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that resource nodes (strategic points) never run out of resource value?

EDIT #2:
Come to think of it, increasing supply caps would only delay this resource bind from happening... although I do think that players with good macro have no problem maxing the size of their armies. So I still stand by slightly higher infantry caps.

[Steiner]

Defensive structures in general should be nerfed just like they were in War3 to prevent too much turtling. Perhaps more hard counters and a few other tweaks with balanced races would prevent reaching cap so easily ...

Strategic points should actually decay faster and then finally expire completely and just be there as victory conditions but no resource producers that might help the case a little bit.

[DreadNaught]

I've never found trouble in spending my requisition at anypoint in the game. I'm always doing something, and often in massive battles experienced players know how to counter most units and this allows that you can build other units to replace them. Fully reinforced, and upgraded units cost a lot and allow for massive forces to control. You may want to turn down your requisition speed to "normal" as it were so that you don't gain as many as fast either. *shrugs*

[ninjin]

well, personally, i dont see how "turtling" is so bad. i myself, prefer siege warfare instead of skirmishes and assaults. The current DoW style lets both types of people play : "rushers", "turtlers" and whatever is inbetween. Balance is nice as it lets both types play. As a player that uses siege-warfare i find it unfair that i would be hampered just to suit the "rushers" opinion and playstyle.

[DarkOMEN]

Defensive structures in general should be nerfed just like they were in War3 to prevent too much turtling. Perhaps more hard counters and a few other tweaks with balanced races would prevent reaching cap so easily ...

Strategic points should actually decay faster and then finally expire completely and just be there as victory conditions but no resource producers that might help the case a little bit.

I wouldn't mind seeing structures decay faster, and I did notice that defensive structures are pretty powerful, especially Ork structures (mind you, they are horribly inaccurate). However, I've come to learn that the strong defensive structures are alright, as long as they aren't whored, a sad side effect of the unused RP in late game which I am discussing here. You can always build turrets, always.

On a separate note, I think turrets are a little powerful in the early game, however cudos to the developers giving the Orks fast defenses... it helps them last to mid-game (where I think they are a little overpowered, especially by SMarines).

As for resource decay... yes. I definately agree, although I'm not sure how much they should decay.


I've never found trouble in spending my requisition at anypoint in the game. I'm always doing something, and often in massive battles experienced players know how to counter most units and this allows that you can build other units to replace them. Fully reinforced, and upgraded units cost a lot and allow for massive forces to control. You may want to turn down your requisition speed to "normal" as it were so that you don't gain as many as fast either. *shrugs*

My experience seems to differ, but the comment tends to make me disbelieve you somewhat. I play as quickly as I can and tend to expand at the same rate... if you wait on resources, you need more. Eventually I find myself in a bind where the 35-50 RP required to reinforce a given unit becomes insignificant to the total ammount of RP I am recieving, at least when you get your forces up in the numbers.

I'll admit that this doesn't apply to every game, but I tend to have less spending to do late game when everything is researched/upgraded, my supply doesn't deviate from max supply all that much, and that's usually when I have 3rd level Listening Posts.


well, personally, i dont see how "turtling" is so bad. i myself, prefer siege warfare instead of skirmishes and assaults. The current DoW style lets both types of people play : "rushers", "turtlers" and whatever is inbetween. Balance is nice as it lets both types play. As a player that uses siege-warfare i find it unfair that i would be hampered just to suit the "rushers" opinion and playstyle.

By "siege", what do you mean? Long range units or flooding base defenses? Personally, I think Whirlwinds and LR sort of disfavour the turtling approach anyway. By turtling, I'm refering to flooding base defenses.

[DreadNaught]

Well, you seem to believe strongly in your beliefs... All I can suggest is, that once you are in a late game situation as you describe it. Well, focus on your combat then. Take what you have and micro everything, think of strategy and don't worry about doing anything at your main base. That, and don't look at top left. =oP