Peter Jackson IS the ONLY man that can turn WH40K into a cool live action movie!

[CanadianGaurd]

Just look at the stuff he did before making LOTR! This man can turn the most complex screwed up storyline into a movie. Okay, maybe not a movie most critics will like (judging from his early works). But just look at LOTR, and tell me he can't make a futuristic version of that!

[TheBladeRoden]

Peter Jackson did stuff before LOTR?

[DarthFelth]

well somehow i doubt they would ahve let someone with no experience at all do LOTR's

i do remember at games day they used to ahve live action bits of 40K fav one was the one with the wolf guard termies in :D

[MattyG]

PJ did a number of movies before LOTR. Obviously none of them were as big or well known.

He actually started in horror and gore movies.

[TS_ahriman]

Well that should make him qualified for 40k: the movie all by itself. Perhaps only Peter Jackson has the skills to make a chainsword work great on other people.

[Coey]

If they do make a film. bet it will be horror film. Set on a Imperial ship flying through the warp, and something goes terribl wrong, and Tzeentch starts fuckng with their heads and basically Event Horizon 2, but cooler. With Space Marines.

[Triceron]

I wouldn't say Peter Jackson would be the only director. Sure he did LOTR well, but he got a huge budget and a huge team to work with too. Although I understand he is the man behind the movie, I still feel that it wouldn't have made much of a difference if someone else was behind the director's chair. I mean all in all, a Director is only mainly responsible on the cuts and sequences throughout a movie, they don't do the acting, the CG or any of the other things we look for in a movie.

Personally I'd go for Ridley Scott doing a Warhammer movie. The man made Blade Runner, Alien and Legend three of the most influential scifi/fantasy flicks there is. And don't forget Black Hawk Down, the tragic interpretation of military warfare. All his films have a dark nature to them and an atmosphere that you can't help but feel you're actually living in. I think he'd make a Warhammer 40k film worth watching.

[Trickv2/BjornT]

Ridley Scott.., as long as he could bring in the set designer from Alien, then you'd be looking a very impressive space hulk film, that film made me feel claustrophobic with the way the Nostromo was built/portrayed

[yeeek]

Well, warhammer 40k is so huge that just making a movie couldn't even try to show what all this is about ....

Perhaps an anime series of 50 minutes lenght every days hehehe. but you get my point if they ever make movies they'll have to make it a trilogy of something

i wouldn't mind a cool anime tho. much more possibility and less costly.

i know not everyone is into anime, but when you look at Akira, ghost in the shell. you can do cool stuff.

[Crested_Ones]

i'd rather an LOTR quality movie than an anime series... an anime series would just bring in the wrong crowd IMO.

the first step to a movie would probably have to be a book. if a really great book (trilogy or what-have-you) was written perhaps of the rise of the Emperor and the Horus Heresy then judging by the reaction of the book it could be translated into a script.

[Dimension]

yeah, but why would this book accomplish what other Wh40K books didn't accomplish?

Also, i REALLY don't think that once you've got good actors, decent CG and a budget together, that a movie will more or less carry itself. thats the point where the REAL work starts, and this is where jackson came in.

wanna see what happens if you couple CG, budget and great actors without getting a good guy to put it all together? then go watch Troy, a high-class movie that has the emotional impact of an average 30 min xena-episode.

[FerociousBeast]

Peter Jackson in my opinion majorly fucked Tolkien. I say keep him and his team of female scriptwriters light years away from 40K. Nothing against women, but some things just need a strong masculine touch. LotR and 40K are definitely among them.

Oh and anime would be an absolutely miserable move. Anime just totally blows.

Ridley Scott would be sweet. Either him or James Cameron. If it was Ridley Scott the movie would have to be about Tyranids, if Cameron about Necrons :)

[Strybjorn]

The question is, what would be the center of the story. Would it be based on the Horus Heresy, a space hulk, the battle for armageddon, the battle for macragge, what? I would say just a space hulk so it could be pretty well infested with anything. The question is, who would we get to play what parts. Here is what I think:

Space Marines:
Michael Jai White (Spawn)
Matthew Taylor (big bad cop in Exit Wounds)
Liev Schrieber (John Clark, Sum of All Fears)
The blond german guy Affleck beats up in the warehouse in sum of all fears (does anyone know his name?)

Imperial Guard:
Viggo Mortenson (Aragorn)
Josh Hartnett (From Black Hawk Down)
Matt Damon (Private Ryan in Saving Private Ryan)
Adam Baldwin (Animal Mother from Full Metal Jacket)

Chaos:
Anyone that can do evil good :bandit:

Just some ideas. Expand on this. Flame if you want, we all want a good cast for a possible movie.

:duck:

[Deth07]

There was gonna be a movie but then they ran out of buisness some 2 years, it was computer animated like the Final Fantasy movie.

The movie was called BloodQuest and was about Orks invading a planet searching for an artifact burrowed deep within it and the closest and only available Company was a Blood Angels one.

BTW I'm new and I look forward to meeting some of you :beer:

[Dante]

hello, and there was also a live action one called inquistor (?) i believe. They had people in suits of pwoer armour and termie armour (liek the wolf guy mentioned above) Gamesday Chicago was gonna show it, but we decided to see more stuff abotu DoW! haha.

[Ramrod]

stryjborn, why does you list include pretty boys that can't act? we've seen them in enough movies...

michael jai white: no talent
josh hartnett: no talent
matthew taylor: no talent

em, liev schrieber as a space marine? em, i dunno if you've ever seen the rest of his stuff, but he's really chubby, not very space mariney at all.

also, a space marine actor'd have to be pretty tall. michael jai white is not.

i won't disagree with adam baldwin, he owns, but we need fewer golden boys than your list.

mortensen and damon are too famously 'nice' to be guardsmen. guardsmen are cynical fatalists who know they're dead meat. neither of those actors could pull that off, they're too cutesy.

maybe some unknowns would be better, with a couple of older megafamous guys thrown in as the higher ranking dudes or grizzled veterans. for example, tom sizemore leading a squad of IG vets, or jason isaacs as an SM captain.

we don't need this movie to pull in preteen girls, so the pretty faces are not necessary.

edit:
to keep this on topic, peter jackson blows the big one and should never even be allowed to say "warhammer forty thousand" out loud. triceron is 1000000% right.

also, dimension, comparing troy (which i agree was extremely vapid) to the most overdone, pointlessly sappy fantasy movie ever is a bit one-sided. lord of the rings sucked. its the truth. braindead/dead alive is a much better example of what PJ can do, because he turned the most useless script he ever wrote into a somewhat entertaining bloodbath.

[Romirez]

You hit the nail on the head bout the pretty boys Rod.

Some things should be left well outta the fillm industry. Warhammer 40K is one of them.

If we look back at almost every film that's derived from a game of some sort, they all suck complete balls. Mario... Mortal Combat. This would be no different.

If a film was made it would just be an attempt to cash in on an established franchise.

WH40K should just be left as the games and books it is now and it always has been.

[DarthFelth]

wot about the guy who played jaws, would make a great chaos marine ;) the guy who played chewie, the only pretty boys ud want are for blood angels

[Coey]

Antony Hopkins would make a great General. Sean Connery if he was younger would make a cool Space marine vet. sergeant.

[DarthFelth]

yeah if he was like 7ft plus tall

[Imperial marine]

computer animation

[DarthFelth]

might as well do it final fanatsy style then ;)

[Deth07]

I've seen some samples of that BloodQuest movie, it looked rather well done. I honestly can't see an "acted" out 40k movie.

Besides if they were gonna include real actors then they're gonna have to find 7 1/2 foot tall freaks :D

[RaaR]

But they are 8 feet tall...

[Triceron]

James Cameron would be a cool action director too, but all of his films always end on a good note. Not necessarily a bad thing, but Scott can end a movie while still leaving you thinking "Wow, those characters just came through hell..."

All depends on what you want to see as a 40k movie. It can be a uberfluffy story with lots of character development, a scifi thriller, or a pure no-brainer action movie.

[Solid_Snake]

Height wouldn't neccasarily be the problem with it, look what they were able to with the hobbits. They took a good 2-3 feet off em so they should be able to add 2-3 feet to a person to give them the tall look.

Also a way to get a movie started and if you had the time and money for sequels would be to base it on a books series of Warhammer 40k such as Gaunt Ghosts because most of the time it is human vs heretic or human vs daemon. Doing it like that would eliminate the problems of space marines completely having their badass reputation messed up by a pretty boy actor who wets himself at the thought of daemon.

my 2 cents

[Savageblitzer]

Solid is right. Height is no real hurdle - 90% of the 'hobbit' effects in LotR were done with scale doubles or forced perspective techniques. It can be pulled off.

However, I would be scared about a 40k movie. As has been mentioned, movie translations of games and the like hardly ever turn out well.

[Paradise]

For a director I would say James Cameron too. For a bad guy(Chaos Space Marine), they could use the actor that played T-1000 in Terminator 2, Robert Patrick, and maybe the guy that plays Gimli for a space marine. For Imperial guard they should just choose some young unknown actors.

[An-D]

I think Robert Partrick is just too slim and wirey to be a convincing Chaos Space Marine.

[Ramrod]

and john rhys-davies is way too FAT to be a marine. remember, these guys are fitter than is humanly possible, there would be absolutely no lipid on any of them...

and why does everybody automatically assume height isn't a problem? "LOTR did it, so that makes it a good idea..." the CG effects in LOTR costed more than most of the main characters' salaries put together. thats some of the worst budget handling ever. the fewer wasted hundreds of thousands of dollars, the better. why spend unnecessary amounts of money doing something digitally when it can be done practically?

seems as if our generation likes to do things the quick and easy way, the thought of hard work seems to scare most of us...

remember how much better the alien effects in Aliens were than in Alien Resurrection?

if something can be done both digitally and practically, practically will always look better, even if it takes longer and requires more work.

besides, it'll be cheaper, allowing more money to be spent rendering a bloodthirster or maybe even writing the SCRIPT (yes, those still exist...sometimes...).

[DarthFelth]

well i guess u could use short actors for the normal people ;)

[orkdom]

well somehow i doubt they would ahve let someone with no experience at all do LOTR's
hehe, funny thing u should say that, cuz actually tolkien(the guy who wrote and owns the rights to the whole thing) absolutely hated the idea of making a movie at all. according to law, if i remember, these movies should be illigal to make for another 80yrs. or so...hehe.

[Ramrod]

lol, darthfelth, that would work, and would be hilarious.

orkdom, if you have any proof at all to back that up, provide it, because the way you said it is incredibly incorrect.

tolkien himself does not own the rights to LOTR, they're his son's, chris tolkien. JRR tolkien died in '73. a dead person owns nothing by any law in any country.

the rights to LOTR are for chris tolkien to do whatever the hell he wants with. whoever told you what you said completely made that up, or misinterpreted the truth an obscene amount.

[BallisticSword]

I dunno about you guys, but if it was like a space hulk movie, or something not centered around huge f'ing battles, such as maybe the Horus Heresey focusing on horus and the emperor, then I'd like to see Quintin Tarantino try his hand at it, i dunno how good he would do at large scale battles, but i think he would make an excellent Warhammer 40k movie.

[Coey]

Nah, not Tarantino, Sci-Fi isn't his typo of movie.

[TheLoneKnight]

If Jackson did the Warhammer movie I'd commit seppuku on the spot and send him many exploding plushies from beyond the grave. He didn't do that great of a job with LoTR, and I'd hate to see how he'd kill the Warhammer franchise.

Quentin Tarentino? Oddly enough, I can see that almost working. Tarentino has a knack for creating very violent, very fun movies. I don't know if he'd get it dark enough, though.. So I'm going to go with the director who did Aliens. (AlienS, not Alien.) That guy did an awesome job. Can't you picture something like the same situation though? Colony goes missing..Space Marines or IG sent in to investigate.. turns out the 'nids are invading with a massive hive fleet.. XD

Gahaha. That would be sweet.

[MattyG]

If Jackson did the Warhammer movie I'd commit seppuku on the spot and send him many exploding plushies from beyond the grave. He didn't do that great of a job with LoTR, and I'd hate to see how he'd kill the Warhammer franchise.

Quentin Tarentino? Oddly enough, I can see that almost working. Tarentino has a knack for creating very violent, very fun movies. I don't know if he'd get it dark enough, though.. So I'm going to go with the director who did Aliens. (AlienS, not Alien.) That guy did an awesome job. Can't you picture something like the same situation though? Colony goes missing..Space Marines or IG sent in to investigate.. turns out the 'nids are invading with a massive hive fleet.. XD

Gahaha. That would be sweet.

James Cameron directed Aliens....one of my favorit movies of all time :)

He also directed Titanic though, so I'd be 50/50 on that choice :p

[Paradise]

He also directed Terminator 1,2 , and 3. It should be 80/20 now :D

[Strybjorn]

I apologize for all those pretty boys. they have now been pulled from the roles I suggested and have been put in a Penal Legion sent to the Eastern Fringe to fight tyranids. :bandit:



:duck:

[Triceron]

He wrote terminator 3, didn't direct it tho.

[Ramrod]

the inquisition would be proud, stryjborn...

lol

[TheLoneKnight]

There. It's settled. James Cameron directs or we all commit ritualistic suicide.

If Peter Jackson directs we send him exploding plushies with "JAMES CAMERON OR DIE!" scribbled on the foreheads of each. If he doesn't get it, we commit seppuku and take him down with us. Despite his best intentions he killed Tolkien's works. If he kills Warhammer 40,000, I'll kill HIM. :sam: :num: :dyn: :angel:

[Vijil]

Im a tolkein fan and I thought LoTR was, though not perfect, as good as could reasonably be expected. Of COURSE he killed it in the eyes of most fans though... name a single movie made of a story with a cult following which wasnt considered terrible by most fans....

I thought not. Its ZFARS (Zealous Fan Anal Retentive Syndrome): anything but exactly what they want is considered evil.

As for him doing 40k, I think so. He is an incredibly versatile director, having made many excellent films which are nothing like LoTR including The Frighteners and Heavenly Creatures, about two friends with an intense fantasy life, who plot to kill their mothers when they try to seperate them. True story. King Kong should be great.

[FerociousBeast]

hehe, funny thing u should say that, cuz actually tolkien(the guy who wrote and owns the rights to the whole thing) absolutely hated the idea of making a movie at all. according to law, if i remember, these movies should be illigal to make for another 80yrs. or so...hehe.

Not exactly true. Christopher Tokien, J.R.R.'s son, and literary caretaker, was the heir, but apparently sold the rights back in the 70s or 80s or something for a tidy bundle. However, he was dead set against the movie and I completely agree with him. However, since he sold the rights, our wonderful government and law say that he has no more say in the matter. So, screw you Mr. Tolkien! You don't mean shit anymore.

By the way, this is of course very similar to Michael Jackson outbidding Paul McCartney for the rights to the Beatles' music. Every time you buy a Beatles album (and I for one have them all), you're making Michael "Sleeping with Boys is Sweet" Jackson richer.

Double Post

For the record, let me say that I thought the LotR trilogy, Jackson style, were good movies, for the most part; however, like I said earlier, he fucked Tolkien. He character-assassinated main characters (Faramir, Treebeard, Gimli), changed details that did not need to be changed (let's make Frodo a spectator of the battle of Osgiliath), made the script too feminine and sentimental (Elijah Woods shimmering eyes and "Oh, dear Sam . ."), and admittedly tried to improve Tolkien's work while, in my opinion, failing miserably at the attempt. For example, are you aware that Jackson's original plan was to have Arwen at Helm's Deep, fighting beside Aragorn? What the f-ing hell?

His best movie of the three was the Fellowship because he seemed to want to stick to the book more closely on that one, and didn't add as much of the above.

But even if he had made the movie perfectly, I still wouldn't have been in favor of it. Simply because The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien was primarily a work of great imagination, and was intended to be enjoyed with the imagination. Now however, whenever we read it, in our mind's eye instead of Aragorn we will see Viggo Mortensen; instead of Frodo we will see Elijah Wood (PJ should be damned to hell for that one alone); instead of a faceless, formless flaming Eye, we will see a clunky looking dude in Dark Eldar armor who can crush whole armies with a swing of his hammer yet can't seem to stop one crippled guy from cutting his fingers off.

[Ramrod]

ferociousbeast, you lived up to your name by ripping PJ a new arsehole. you get my vote. i dunno what the vote is for, but you get it.

i salute you :salute:

[Paradise]

I didn't like the 3 movies... Ok, I think the first one was a good movie, but not a 10/10. The films were too long, and the fight scenes weren't tense enough. The trilogy only had one sad moment(Gandalf's *death*). The 3 movies failed in so many ways. The book(s) are good, but they seem outdated to me, and they aren't philosophical or strange enough for me. Now, before I begin critizing Tolkien, and getting flamed for my opinions, I should stop...

Let's agree, don't let Jackson or Spielberg make the movie.

[Coey]

Agreed.

And the battle scene's where always close-ups of the actors looking "angry" and smashing their sword into the camera, usually screaming something. Oh and Legolas prancing about like a whore on crack.

[PhoenixLord]

Agreed.

And the battle scene's where always close-ups of the actors looking "angry" and smashing their sword into the camera, usually screaming something. Oh and Legolas prancing about like a whore on crack.


I hated that "Two Towers" movie. Why the hell did he make f***ing the elves come? Why did Legolas difie gravity when he got on a horse? Why did Lego skateboard? Why did Haldir die? Why did peter jackson "reamagine" things? To make it appeal to the "i wanna see a movies with hot guys!!!" group, to the "Look, they have big battles!!!" group, to the "Im gonna see this movie because i already saw all the other movies out" group, and everyone else.

If they make a movie of W:40k, i hope it is like Final Fantesy:The Spirits Within (which, by the way, is a good movie). But that would be hellishly expensive. Another idea: use DoW to make it. They made a Halo show (http://www.redvsblue.com) using ingame videos and they then added voices. It was actually good and funny.

[Thalasion]

Pj could make it good, but only if he did it in the style of bad taste. I think that dude who did mulhulund drive and lost highway should do it, imagine him doing chaos(no not the chaos marines, the creepynes of daemonic influence and coruption), damn whats that guys name?

[Ramrod]

imdb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000186/) knows! imdb to the resssscuuuuuuuue!

david lynch, btw

[Thalasion]

Thanks Rod! Dude, he did dune as well if the films lost highway and dune arnet the best possible qualifications for a 40k film out there, well i dont know what are.

[FerociousBeast]

A NOVEL IDEA

Honestly, I don't think Warhammer 40K could ever completely be translated to the screen. There is just too much stuff going on in it. Too many people have their fingers in it, trying to twist the story and themes every which way, and let's face it: it wouldn't be successful because Warhammer is perceived by the average person who has heard of it and hasn't played it as nerdy, too dark and too D&D-ish.(1)

So here's my novel idea. I think one way a Warhammer movie could work is if they left out a lot of the different alien races, left out space marines, and in fact did all they could to disguise that it was a Warhammer movie at all. This is how it would go down. Make the movie a dark sci-fi horror/action movie about a human populated colony world that is suddenly beset by possessed psychics and daemons.(2) Someone called an Inquisitor shows up to fix the problem. The humans in the colony initially help the Inquisitor, never having heard of the Inquisition, then find that the Inquisitor is planning to eviscerate them all from space.

Fluff-wise, since there are probably thousands of planets in the Imperium that don't have much contact with the Imperial government, this could work. Plus Warhammer people would know it was a Warhammer movie while the populace wouldn't have the slightest idea. The advantage of setting a horror/action movie like this in the War40K world is that there would be a lot of depth to the writing and a feeling that the world belonged in a universe of its own. For instance, there could be semi-awed and fearful references to an all-powerful Emperor and his giant warriors. One of the reasons The Lord of the Rings worked as well as it did (book version, mind you; if I am referring to the movies I will say The Lord of the Rings by Peter Jackson) was because of the wealth of back material and history and languages that Tolkien had made for it.(3)

Also, if a movie like this was well made and well received, it would open the door for more explicitly Warhammer movies in the future.

Footnotes

1. Incidentally, this is why I fear DOW will not be successful, even if it is the best game ever made.

2. An obvious danger is the possibility that it might turn out too much like an Alien movie. This would have to be guarded against very carefully.

3. All Tolkien fans should read The Silmarillion. That book makes the events in the trilogy look like minor squabbles and skirmishes.

[Thalasion]

3. All Tolkien fans should read The Silmarillion. That book makes the events in the trilogy look like minor squabbles and skirmishes.

Also Unfinished Tales, kinda the same thing but different bits of it, not as easy to get into as LOTR but a good read anyway.

[FerociousBeast]

Agreed. The Narn i Hin Hurin is one great bit of tragic storytelling.

[Mal'Caor]

If Jackson did the Warhammer movie I'd commit seppuku on the spot and send him many exploding plushies from beyond the grave. He didn't do that great of a job with LoTR, and I'd hate to see how he'd kill the Warhammer franchise.

Quentin Tarentino? Oddly enough, I can see that almost working. Tarentino has a knack for creating very violent, very fun movies. I don't know if he'd get it dark enough, though.. So I'm going to go with the director who did Aliens. (AlienS, not Alien.) That guy did an awesome job. Can't you picture something like the same situation though? Colony goes missing..Space Marines or IG sent in to investigate.. turns out the 'nids are invading with a massive hive fleet.. XD

Gahaha. That would be sweet.

*cough cough* Starship Troopers

[TheLoneKnight]

*cough cough* Starship Troopers

SILENCE! BLASPHEMY! SPEAK NO MORE OF OF THE MURDERER OF FRANCHISE THAT IS THAT MOVIE! IT NEVER EXISTED! IT NEVER WAS, NOR WILL IT EVER BE! ..For instance, did you know that the Arachnid warriors had LASER GUNS? I sure didn't. F*ckin' sweet, though. Anyways, back to ranting. BE SILENT, HERETIC, FOR MENTIONING THAT WHICH IS FORBIDDEN! SAY NAUGHT A WORD MORE LEST THE INQUISITION BE CULLED TO THINE WORLD, AND THOU FAMILY ART BUTCHERED IN THEIR SLEEP LIKE CATTLE! BE STILL, AND BE WATCHFUL, UNFAITHFUL, FOR MENTIONING THAT SADISTICALLY EVIL MOVIE SHALL NEVER BE UNDONE! YOU SHALL BE HUNTED DOWN BY THE EMPEROR'S GUARD, MARK MY WORDS! THEY SHALL SMITE YOU DOWN WHEN YOU LEAST EXPECT IT, AND ONCE YOU ARE SMOTEN, YOU SHALL..uh...PAY FOR YOUR HEATHENOUS.. ..er... THINGAMAJIGGERS IN ....uhm.. THE..AFTERLIFE..thing...yeah..

..did anyone see my train of thought? I think it derailed. SST was pretty decent movie, though, so long as you hadn't already read the book. At which point it was like PJ & LoTR. That rat-faced...

:rant: :censored: :banned: :disgust: :fallen:

Edit: Oh yeah. THATS why I quote. I meant something more along the lines of Aliens, though, not SST. SST = Military action. Aliens = Small squad vs hundreds of P.O.ed aliens. ^^ Much more frightening and far more entertaining, IMO.

[Ramrod]

lol, i feel the same way loneknight, but i'd read the book first... :(

paul verhoeven ruined my heinlein, that smegging git.

and i thought the thing that was forbidden to mention was d3r3k sm@rt (don't say his name three times, or else he'll appear here! :argh:)

EDIT: holy crap yeah, triceron, whoops. corrected it. i need to fix my sleep schedule, i've been getting them confused all week

[Triceron]

Paul Anderson did Mortal Kombat, Resident Evil and AVP. Paul Verhoeven did Starship Troopers and Robocop.

BTW guys, keep it civil.

[Spawncraft]

If they made a 40k movie it would probably consist of quite a few (if they wanted to include all the races)I mean eldar are likly Tau are really only in one area necrons rarely leave the dead world or their tombs hunters mabye but they have to include imperials and orks and chaos

[Goko]

The problem with if they made a warhammer 40k movie is the story line..... they could us 1 of the books.... or 1 of the main story's in 1 of the codex..... or make a trilogoy of about 4 story's leading up to 1 moment...... for example the space marines maybe booting the tyrinads of a important planet maybe 1 of the home world's of there's and the elder fighting back the chaos.... it leading up to maybe all the race's on 1 planet... 1 very large mean and blown out of size war...... but that alone still sound's crap..... my choice...... dont even bother making it into a film just leave it as it is..... somethings are a good idea other's are just to make cash cause there the hotest craze out at the moment....

[BallisticSword]

Yeah I agree, but i have to say that i dont think Warhammer 40k counts as, "the hotest craze out at the moment."

[ShadowFox]

40K is just starting to get the attention it deserves, atleast in the states.

I would prefer an anime of 40K set from the viewpoint of a Imperial Guardsman...or maybe a rogue trader.

[Ramrod]

not an anime. that would fuck it up and i'd murder someone.

maybe an animated movie, because that is a different category to anime per se.

even then, it would have to be a studio with assloads of money or else the animation and character design would be as interesting as the pimples on an EQ player's back.

[FerociousBeast]

Roddy, let me take this opportunity to say that I 100% agree with you and it is always a pleasure and an honor to meet another anime hater in cyberspace.

Japanese animator: "Hideo makato rokimishu."
English translation: "How can I draw this cartoon while expending the least amount of energy possible? Oh, here's an idea. How about I draw only one face, and then merely change the mouth size in odd ways while putting dots about the eyes, thus simulating the appearance of speaking while actually doing jack shit. Now there's an idea! Thank the ancestors."

[Triceron]

Eh. Anime is simply put "Animation from Japan". This covers a HUGE ground of animation, and it isn't limited to just one sort. Did you just watch some really bad anime and base all opinions on that or something?

Granted these are your opinions of not liking a particular style or presentation of a show/movie, but generalizing anime as a whole is a different story. It's sort of like saying "I hate japanese videogames" without specifying what exactly you dislike about it.

I agree Anime wouldn't fit 40k in many forms, but is there any reasoning behind the hate?

-Edit- I'd like to say that a lot of generic anime series tend to reuse animations and cheese out in production simply because it reduces costs, but if you want quality animation then you look towards OVAs and Movies. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Anime tho so I can't tell if you're just saying this out of pure experience or if it's just a casual rant.

[FerociousBeast]

I had seen a lot of the generic anime such as Dragon Ball Z, Pokemon, etc., and frankly wasn't impressed at all. However I had heard that there was some good anime out there like Akira. So, being the fair-minded chap that I am :) I duly rented it to see if it was any good. With, I might add, a fairly open mind.

I was extremely disappointed, to say the least. I will admit that it was drawn to a higher degree of quality than most I have seen, however I still did not like the animation style, the cheesy story-line, the characterization or even the much vaunted "high-octane" animation itself.

That said, if you can direct me to another example of "good" anime, I'm more than willing to give it a shot. But until then, I regrettably must hate our Japanese friends' work.

[ShadowFox]

The guy who did Blue Submarine No. 6, Last Exile, and The Second Renaissance(animatrix chapter) would be perfect for a 40K anime. HE has expierence in making nicely animated sci-fi series.

If anyone can watch Hellsing or Cowboy Bebop and then tell me they hate anime then I won't bother trying to convince them otherwise. Until you see something other than cheesey cable anime don't make a judgement.

Hellsing is easily my favorite anime series, and it is only 13 or so episodes, but unfortunately its only on DVD. You can watch Cowboy Bebop on Cartoon Network latenight, but I think they took it off weekdays....also rent the animatrix and watch the Second Renaissance. It is really one of the only good chapters, but if you want quality anime its one of the best. Not to mention it gives a excellent back story to the matrix series and depicts the first war between man and machine.

P.S. - How was Akira's storyline cheesey? Don't tell me you somehow figured out that everything would be sucked into a giant vortex at the very end......I guess "original" somehow counts as "cheesey" in your book.

[BallisticSword]

That is cheesy, as with a lot of anime, i mean Cowboy Bebop (One of the few animes i actually like) is about as cheesy as it comes, i mean its about 4 space bounty hunters and their cooky adventures in trying to get along. Thats very cheesy. It doesnt matter how intrecate and original the storyline is when it is first created, the fact of the matter is in translating it into english it makes it even more cheesy.

A lot of people these days are riding the "anime wave" and even though a lot of people swear by anime, many more people do not like it because of the corny humor, odd dialouge and in general very odd shows. Lets not get into hating on other people beliefs. The fact of the matter is that anime simply would not work well for warhammer 40k, i dont think anything ever will.

I dont think theres anything left to discuss about making a warhammer 40k movie and it just wouldnt work.

-edit-
I meant to say that i dont think anime would work just because of the dark and serious tone of warhammer 40k. In every anime i have seen, (and i have seen a wide variety) it would just be too lite hearted and would not fit the dark and gothic tone.

[Triceron]

It sort of depends on what kind of anime you're looking for. A lot of scifi anime is made to be exaggerated, and often comes off as cheese, but you really get used to it. If you look past that, sometimes you will come across some really good plots and awesome storylines.

A personal cheesed up classic that I like is Gundam 0079, the first gundam series. It's full of silly extremes like giant mechs piloted by a 'children', funky looking mech designs and your run-of-the-mill "Bad guy of the week" set of enemies... But it really has a deep and serious undertone beyond that. The anime is all about the characters, and the characters' struggles through war. The Main character is a young teenager who happens to trip over a giant mech and learns to pilot it with a skill beyond that of normal people, cheesy right? What gets interesting however is seeing how people react to him because of his unnatural skill. Not everyone reveres him as a saviour or a hero, and through the series you see other people making sacrifices for him which makes him question his own worth. Also some of the personalities of the enemies he fights aren't your typical "I'm an evil doer" characters, they all have different motivations and different goals. You just have go in expecting the cheese and just have fun with it. I mean typically every Sci Fi TV show will have its fill of cheese and plot holes, but just watch it as entertainment. It all depends what kind of shows you like and what you don't like. You can't like it all, but if you can stomach the obvious exaggerations, you might find something you can like.

If you're looking for movies with a good story that isn't campy, I'd reccomend any Miyazaki film (Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away, Grave of the Fireflies). I also found the Rurouni Kenshin OVA to be a pretty good show that, although had its over-exaggerated killfest scenes, did a good job story-telling.

[ShadowFox]

-edit-
I meant to say that i dont think anime would work just because of the dark and serious tone of warhammer 40k. In every anime i have seen, (and i have seen a wide variety) it would just be too lite hearted and would not fit the dark and gothic tone.

I would beg to differ as I have seen plenty of anime that can fit this tone quite well. Making 40k an anime would be a much more realistic venture than making it into a TV show or a movie. A movie would need an outrageous budget to make it worth a crap, and a TV show would just look like crap. With an animated show you don't have to worry about special effects. Not to mention voice actors work much better than real actors, because you don't have to pay them nearly as much.

P.S. - Cowboy Bebop cheesy? Maybe when Ed and Ein get involved, but I can't see them putting any comic relief characters into a 40K anime. Cowboy Bebop usually has a serious tone, especially when it comes to spike's past. The premise of the show is not about all four of them getting along it is about them dealing with their pasts.

[Ramrod]

lol, ferociousbeast. i didnt make myself clear. i don't hate anime. at all. i'm a big fan of a select few series and movies. mainly the dark ones (i hate cheerful happy bullshit).

shadowfox, no anime i have ever seen (and i have seen a lot, bad and good) has the grit to do 40k justice. they might have the mood and the darkness right, but japanese script writing just doesn't have enough cynicism to work in 40k.

if they made a 40k animated movie, the only funny lines acceptable would be cynical remarks about war or the chain of command or something along those lines. they're the only kind of jokes that would fit.

however, japanese humour is very different to western humour, and cynicism is very rare. any jokes would end up being ridiculous visual gags or fan service.

not only that, but japanese character design would in no way belong in 40k. i'm not trying to say "all anime characters look like the pokemon people LOLZ" because i know they don't. but even the most anatomically realistic anime i've seen (jin-roh) is too 'cartoony' to fit.

an anime would not work. an animated movie would not work. a movie would probably not work. goddamn, the novels don't even always work. this is a bad idea whichever way you look at it.

[BallisticSword]

Thats what i Said, i think this entire movie thing is a wash, it just couldnt work!

[FerociousBeast]

Roddy -- traitor -- you disappoint me. Once again I find myself drifting alone through the endless reaches of cyberspace.

[BallisticSword]

Hey man, you need not drift long, for the SS Anime Hater Battleship has room for two, hop on and we'll go bomb tokyo!

[turbotj]

I have to believe that you can get a awsome movie out of 40K and an even better TV series depending on the animation and story.
For animation, I would have to say taking the animation from GUNDAM 0083: Stardust Memory and then for the darkness aspect, bring in Todd Mcfarlane (Spawn Comic Book and Animated series)Mabe even add 1-2 artists from Animatrix. :flamer:
The mech style could work well for the Ships and warfare, and McFarlane's dark style is perfect for keeping with the theme of 40K. :D
Now for story, you would want to use the darkness of the novels used for 40K and not bring in any love stories. Pick 2-3 races for a movie, and stick with them only. I'd suggest Choas vs. Imperials, w/ orks for the begining and very end.
A animated series would use the same premise, but use the first season to define around 4 races, and use each episode to focus on one race. And for the season finalies, start building with 2 or all 4 for a big clash and set up for the next season. And it would have to be on cable( HBO, Showtime, etc) in order to hand the gore aspect.:)

But that's just my .02 :)

[FerociousBeast]

Man, anime is just too cheerful and youthful for 40K. Todd McFarlane might be able to pull it off, but anime needs to stay warpyears away from 40K.

Ballistic: you're on, man! Let's get this thing on the road! Can't wait! Any more volunteers? We've got plenty more posts.

[BallisticSword]

Lets see... we still need about... everyone on the friggen planet and we'll have ourselves a lil old convoy rockin through the night!

Im sorry i (and many other people) just dont think you could convey the epic feel of 40k to the silver screen! or even as a long television series! theres jsut too much going on at once and for it to even be popular people would have to know a little aobut the backstory, and very few people do! It just wouldnt work, now all guns target tokyo... commence orbital bombardment. And get me a butterfingers.

[DarthFelth]

Man, anime is just too cheerful and youthful for 40K. Todd McFarlane might be able to pull it off, but anime needs to stay warpyears away from 40K.

Ballistic: you're on, man! Let's get this thing on the road! Can't wait! Any more volunteers? We've got plenty more posts.

well the hell have you been watching, watch something like wicked city, some of the classics, akira perhaps, now that style would rock and would work alot better than anything else by far

[ShadowFox]

Considering the Star Wars Universe is immense like 40K, all they need to do is caste in a VERY dim light. I am sure someone like James Cameron could do it, and I am confident that the guy did Blue Submarine No.6 could pull it off. He did an excellent job protraying a mood of impending destruction for humanity in that movie. And in the Animatrix he did an awesome job on The Second Reinasance by protraying the utter despair of humanity as they were crushed by the machines. Sorry, but to say that you can not properly protray 40K on the screen, but somehow books are can, is a joke. Movies are much more effective at protraying emotion than written words ever will be.....

[FerociousBeast]

I've seen Akira, and I include it in my blanket condemnation.

Ballistic: I sort of agree, but see my post number 52. I think that kind of thing would work.

[BallisticSword]

Shadowfox i should smack you so hard... what are you talking about? "Movies are much more effective at protraying emotion than written words ever will be....." jesus christ man. Yeah maybe if your reading See Spot Run! I mean come on dude, you can go into so much more detail than in movies, that is why a lot of fans were upset with the Lord of the Rings movies, because books go into explicit detail. In movies all you can see is what they show you, you cant see what the person is thinking, i mean sure, movies SHOW you the person giving you an exact feel of how they look and what tone of voice they use etc, but in no way will movies ever come close to portraying emotions and feelings in the way books do! Now go read some REAL litreature such as Moby Dick or maybe the collective works of shakespear (which i own) if you really want to get a feel for how writing can convey emotions. And if i ever hear something like that again... oh ho ho ho you can excpect the Book Mobile of Pain and Torture to show up on your front doorstep

[ShadowFox]

How often to people cry or get scared while reading books when compared with movies?? There you go I have proven my point...want more? Which is more likely to make someone emotional, a guy reading THE PASSION to you, or a the movie by mel gibson? Guess which is better for politics, movie or written word? Movies are infinately better at making you actually FEEL the emotion and the pain that the characters have go through. You actually have to witness the events, while the book is just a mental picture formed in your mind. You can not relate to book characters because you do really see them in the flesh.

The first part of your post can only be dignified with a single response. "I CHOOSE BUSINESS ETHICS!"

[BallisticSword]

The only reason most people show more emotion with movies is because with movies you actually see the person and in many cases it would be a case of sympathy for crying and fear just because of the sheer shock of such situations presented in most horror movies. And you did not just try and bring the passion of the christ in to this... do you not realize that its just a movie based off a book that has made more people cry and feel emotions then any book or movie or any other media in history? Hmmm whats that book? uhh... its on the tip of my tounge.... oh thats it! ITS THE BIBLE! In movies you dont FEEL the emotions you just see them and relate, its the same with books except in books you end up putting your own spin on the emotion in your mind and it becomes more personalized instead of simply seeing it on the big screen.

All that aside, warhammer 40k isnt exactly about emotions and feelings, its a mood and a tone that creates warhammer, and every time i try and think up something that would be good in live action, animation or 3d animation, none of it would ever be able to match the exact tone of warhammer 40k, it just couldnt be done feasibly and stay true to the 40k feel! Its just not something that could be converted into a media other than MAYBE writing or graphic novels.

These are my opinions.

[ShadowFox]

These are my opinions.

Fair enough, are you atleast entitled to such things.

No matter how dumb they may be. :D :jk:

[BallisticSword]

RAwr... good thing my opinions have an orbital ham laser... say goodbye japan... dun dun dun

[FerociousBeast]

The only time I have cried in the last five years that I can remember was while reading a book. I have seen a hell of a lot of good movies too. But no movie has ever put me over the edge.

I am something of a connosieur of good books and good movies, too, so I know what I'm talking about.

[BallisticSword]

w00t w00t Props up top

[ShadowFox]

No book has done that to me, and really no movie has either since I was a small child.

I get rather choked up when I watch the history channel on WWII and they play the patriotic music and such.

[peer]

I am something of a connosieur of good books and good movies, too, so I know what I'm talking about.

ahahahahahahahaha




I hope you weren't being serious.

[FerociousBeast]

Well, Friend Peer, actually I was. I assume that you know me well enough to make an informed character assessment?

[Ramrod]

informed character assesment of ferociousbeast: is a beast, is ferocious, hates anime

:D


anyway, i dont see how this thread got so derailed that while the subject is 'PJ making a 40k movie, discuss', we're talking about how an anime would either "pwnz0rz as a 40k movey lolz!1" or be a "a huge watse of moneys! amine SUXX!"

shouldn't we start a new thread about a 40k anime? or maybe drop the subject altogether, since we'll never agree, and nobody is really wrong after all.

[CanadianGaurd]

informed character assesment of ferociousbeast: is a beast, is ferocious, hates anime

:D


anyway, i dont see how this thread got so derailed that while the subject is 'PJ making a 40k movie, discuss', we're talking about how an anime would either "pwnz0rz as a 40k movey lolz!1" or be a "a huge watse of moneys! amine SUXX!"

shouldn't we start a new thread about a 40k anime? or maybe drop the subject altogether, since we'll never agree, and nobody is really wrong after all.

Yes Roddy, I agree, we should start a "Would WH40K make a good anime?" thread. But I'm too lazy right now, so u do it.

[Col_Gaunt]

40K as films would be brilliant. however very simply GW fans would be the only people who understand it, 40K is on of the biggest histories/futures probably more so than LOTRs.

I'd love to see the horus heresy as a film though u'd need to do about 10 films to get anywhere near something that made any sense, and even then 80% of movie goers would be like 'erm what just happened, who was that, why, what, how...'

Marines attacking a space hulk would be cool, but it would be torn to shreds and labeled an 'Alien' Clone
Anything involving 'nids would be labeled an 'Alien' clone for that matter

The inquisition wars are way to complex to condense down to a film or trilogy without people heavily knowing the background of 40K to understand who an inquisitor really is.

Gaunts Ghost series, probably the most likely stories that could be made into movies that could work, but it would be difficult.

Anime 40k...hmm i love 40k i love anime, but I dont think they would gel well

Final Fantasy style completly CGI based thing, could work, I think it would work better as a TV series though(hell maybe one day they'll finish BloodQuest ;) )

[DarthFelth]

Well, Friend Peer, actually I was. I assume that you know me well enough to make an informed character assessment?

ohh i think you are, you must be if you dont like Akira, k maybe that isnt good enough, what about in the style of transformers the movie :beer: :bandit: :Slap:

[ShadowFox]

I'd love to see the horus heresy as a film though u'd need to do about 10 films to get anywhere near something that made any sense, and even then 80% of movie goers would be like 'erm what just happened, who was that, why, what, how...'


All they would have to do is a recap like they did in LOTR about the first War for the Ring when they defeated Sauron. Just compact all the story about the Emperor's creation of the Primarchs down into a short story. I would leave the emperors origins a secret to movie goers to make him more mysterious.

[spacewolflord]

FerociousBeast
Have you seen the Patlabor movies there are three in all. I have a feeling that even you will like them.

[Galatan]

[QUOTE=Triceron]I wouldn't say Peter Jackson would be the only director. Sure he did LOTR well, but he got a huge budget and a huge team to work with too. Although I understand he is the man behind the movie, I still feel that it wouldn't have made much of a difference if someone else was behind the director's chair.

QUOTE]


OH MY GOD WHAT A MORON!!! hes the only director in the world that could pull off warhammer 40k movie and have all 40k fans love it !! only a director he had TOTAL CONTROL MORON!!!!!

[Ramrod]

deletedOH MY GOD WHAT A MORON!!! hes the only director in the world that could pull off warhammer 40k movie and have all 40k fans love it !! only a director he had TOTAL CONTROL MORON!!!!!
i think galatan's post is on the way to being deleted.

galatan, peter jackson is not the best director in the world. i will not give my opinion of the best, since that is not what this thread is about. but peter jackson is not the best. he is possibly a bit above average. and i know deep in my soul that whether it was him, or james cameron, or my favorite director, i would most likely despise a 40k movie.

a 40k movie would never live up to my expectations, nor many of the old-timers' (from what they tell me).

he did have total control, but do you think trice is wrong? if you do, you are baaadly misinformed. the number of people working on LOTR was a four-digit number. and it had one of the biggest budgets ever. you think he funded it himself?? or made the movie on his own?? seems to me like thats your definition of 'total control,' because thats your rebuttal to what trice said...

total control only means he was allowed to fuck up any part of the LOTR novels he wanted in the translation-to-film process.

[BallisticSword]

Yeah, I honestly didnt think he did that great in terms of a Lord of the Rings movie, he butchered the actual storyline, removing parts that i would have LOVED to see put into film. On the other hand, forgetting the LOTR part, it was an incredible movie, just not a great LOTR movie

My two cents

[Johan 72109]

I really would hate a 40K movie. It would only end up as an action movie about space marines bravely protecting humanity or something, which would be awful. 40K is about a dark, gothic future where propoganda and arcane technology rule, not about a bunch of blokes saying hideously cheesy lines and eventually saving the day against huge odds.
Has anyone seen the movie Brazil? Something like that would be perfect, but no one would make the film like that for 40K, it's too bleak.

[Lord Dante]

Johan 72109.

or maybe it wont. Dont just assume.

[Johan 72109]

Apologies. I'm just cynical. But you have to admit, it is probable. To an outsider, 40K is action sci-fi. And on one level, so it is. And damn good action sci-fi too. But it would have to be done by a really good script-writer and director, who really understood the background and imagery of the forty-first millenium. I have my suspicions that everyone would give the idea the Hollywood treatment and we would end up with an awful film.

[ShadowFox]

Apologies. I'm just cynical. But you have to admit, it is probable. To an outsider, 40K is action sci-fi. And on one level, so it is. And damn good action sci-fi too. But it would have to be done by a really good script-writer and director, who really understood the background and imagery of the forty-first millenium. I have my suspicions that everyone would give the idea the Hollywood treatment and we would end up with an awful film.

I would be afraid that they would give it to the guy who did resident evil and aliens vs predator.....two good sci-fi/horror genres ruined. Now if they gave to James Cameron it would have great potential. Of course this would be the Cameron of ten years ago, before Van Helsing.(BLAH!!)

As for Jackson, his movies impressed me a great deal because he managed to cut out ALOT of the boring crap that Tolkien put in his books. There were times when reading the LOTR trilogy that I just wanted put them down because Tolkien had such a attention for detail that it seemed to sidetrack the story at times. Detail is fine when it pertains to the storyline, but when you start rambling on about family lines at the worst time it just kills any suspense there might have been.

[Ramrod]

james cameron of ten years ago is more importantly the one before titanic. van helsing (although i fell asleep when i went to watch it in theaters) was not as intensely dull as titanic.

[Draken2034]

Dudes, there is already a movie in the works. Its a fan made film and is extremly low budget. Some stuff is poor CG work while the rest is live action filming(for lack of technical term).

Damnatus, i forget the site, just look it up on google.

[Ramrod]

thats more inquisitor than 40k per se. because its small scale its going to do much better. the techpriest in that movie looks incredible.

[Dimension]

all you people thinking that as long as staff and budget is present, you don't need a good director to make a good movie need to wake the hell up.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: there is no substitute for an artistic outlook on a film. budget, actors and staff is just a bonus NO MORE.

[Harthorn]

for me i would prefer the movie to hav imperial gaurds as the main focus.. since if u see space marines all the time.. it won't be fun.. since space marines dun feel fear and they'r all emotionally like a brick wall.. if its imperial gaurds then u can see humans gettin raped by tyranids or slashed open by orcs lol..

i think if there was a movie to be made.. then storyline shouldn hav a "happy fairy tale ending".. it should be more like a horror gore and sadistic..

[Hadrian]

As for Jackson, his movies impressed me a great deal because he managed to cut out ALOT of the boring crap that Tolkien put in his books. There were times when reading the LOTR trilogy that I just wanted put them down because Tolkien had such a attention for detail that it seemed to sidetrack the story at times. Detail is fine when it pertains to the storyline, but when you start rambling on about family lines at the worst time it just kills any suspense there might have been.

Tolkein was a great conceptualist, but not that great of a writer. His stories had amazing vision and rich detail, but were very lacking on narrative. A good parallel in the movie industry is George Lucas. If you look at the Star Wars movies, the best of them was the only one he didn't write, and didn't direct, Empire Strikes Back. And he butchered the prequels. He's got grand ideas, but he just doesn't have the artistic vision that a truly great director needs. Look at some of the better projects Lucas has been involved in, but not had a direct hand on. Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Last Crusade, and Willow. He has the vision, but his works are at their best when he hands them over to someone who can take the vision and make it a better reality.

[FerociousBeast]

Sorry, Hadrian, I don't know what you're talking about. If you mean he doesn't write stories like Stephen King does, with lots of descriptive action, ok, but I would not hold SK up to be a good example of quality writing at all.(1) Descriptive action in my mind cheapens a book if not done extremely well(2), and the kind of tone Tokien was going for would not have been conducive to a blow by blow style at all.

If on the other hand you mean his story-lines weren't interesting (as I'm pretty sure you don't mean, from the wording of your post), I've got to say you are completely wrong. Did you ever read the Lord of the Rings? :) Or Narn i Hin Hurin, maybe even better.

Perhaps you mean the narration, or spoken parts. A lot of people fault him for this, but he was going for an archaic style that really does work and make the place feel ancient and real. Maybe you're dissing all the poetry. In that I will slightly agree. As far as poetry goes, none of it is that great, but at the same time it makes the world feel fleshed out and full of history.

Footnotes:

(1) Stephen King's stories will not last much longer than he himself does. One hundred years from now, his name, if remembered at all, will be a byword for the writing of insubstantial fluff. The only good book of his that I have read is The Gunslinger. Not the Dark Tower series, only the first book.

(2) By the way, an example of good descriptive action can be found in none other than your latest Chaos codex. The storming of the Crimson Fists' line is quite well written. Though it pisses me off, cuz Chaos wins and SMs are killed :(

[Hadrian]

It isn't his lack of action scenes, it's just the lack of dialogue, interaction, and poor flow.

Honestly, the LotR books are slow, and bog down too often. Plus the story is rather weak (ducks). The best written, most well defined, human, character is Boromir, and he dies in the beginning of the second book. Most of the Fellowship, and nearly all of the supporting characters are pretty flat and two dimensional at best. Boromir is Tolkein's sole character in the LotR trilogy that displays real human motivations, weaknesses, emotions and behaviors. Beyond that, there is never any real danger (none of the other heroes suffers anything but the slightest wound), and regardless of the supposed ominous, huge armies of Mordor, and the oft repeated terrible strength of the enemy, Good does nothing but whoop the crap out of Bad, for the entire story.

And don't get me started on the Ents. Or the constant, and sudden bursts into song.

[Gorkamorka]

Canadian, go see Starship Troopers, imagine the troopers are Cadians and the bugs are tyranids. It's that easy

[FerociousBeast]

http://lanecc.edu/artad/arthistoryprogram/images3/28-15.jpg

http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/jdavid/8horatii.htm (only the first paragraph is of import to the topic at hand)

1) "Honestly, the LotR books are slow, and bog down too often." (Bold placed by me)

There are quite literally millions of people who disagree with you on this, so this really cannot be read as anything but an opinion. Yes, Tolkien is slower paced than today's pulp fiction writers, but I like that, and it adds enormously to the feel and beauty of the work. It is absolutely essential to understand that Tolkien was not writing a slam bang swashbuckling thriller. If that's what you want, there are a myriad of fantasy books out there for you. Among them, those produced by Games Workshop.

2) "Plus the story is rather weak (ducks). The best written, most well defined, human, character is Boromir, and he dies in the beginning of the second book. Most of the Fellowship, and nearly all of the supporting characters are pretty flat and two dimensional at best. Boromir is Tolkein's sole character in the LotR trilogy that displays real human motivations, weaknesses, emotions and behaviors. Beyond that, there is never any real danger (none of the other heroes suffers anything but the slightest wound), and regardless of the supposed ominous, huge armies of Mordor, and the oft repeated terrible strength of the enemy, Good does nothing but whoop the crap out of Bad, for the entire story."

A frequent mistake of today's intelligencia is the belief that the only valid art form is either the abstract or the realistic. This is, however, simply not true. You apparently want the clear cut plots, pseudo-complex characters -- complete with the nuances which have almost become cliche -- and Shades-Of-Grey that are so prevalent in modern "best-seller" fiction. While I do not dispute that this is a valid literary form, it is nothing but the height of pretension to claim that this is the only valid form. Just look at the painting above. This painting clearly exemplifies the heroic/epic art form, and it is just this that Tolkien was shooting for.

Maybe you don't like the "heroic/epic" style. Perfectly fine. But don't claim that your opinions and tastes are the end of the matter.

3) "Boromir is Tolkein's sole character in the LotR trilogy that displays real human motivations, weaknesses, emotions and behaviors."

You quite unforgivably forget Frodo, Bilbo, Saruman and Gollum. These are the obvious ones. But also remember that merely because someone is noble, just and good does not mean that he is unrealistic. Let's not be that cynical.

Anyway, though, even if you persist in saying Boromir is the only realistic character, it doesn't matter because of the points outlined in (2) above.

[BallisticSword]

Thank god someone set him straight, i couldnt have said it better myself!

[Hadrian]

Well, I wouldn't say he "set me straight", and I don't doubt you couldn't have said it better, but his piece was no more fact than mine. Both are exactly what literary critque is all about, opinion.

I am one of those who believe that Tolkein was a great conceptualist, but not that grat of a narrator. And while there might be millions who disagree with me, you'll find plenty that do not. And while one might argue that the main Hobbit characters were very human, in many ways, they were rather flat and two dimensional at the same time, almost too tragically heroic to be anything more than sympathetic characters created for a story Tolkein created for young children. However, I do have to admit Gollum was a great character, though my intention was to reference the members of the Fellowship and I inferred the entire story at the end of that paragraph, which was my mistake.

I'm a fan of the heroic/epic story genre. It doesn't change the fact that I don't really like Tolkein's slow style of writing, nor his attention to seemingly inane details while ignorning others. And I'm not talking about fight scenes, because honestly detailed hack and slash isn't always a benefit to the story. Perhaps some scenes could benefit from a bit more detailed depiction, but nobody is asking for a blow by blow interpretation of the scenes from the movies. This isn't a question of genre, or periodic writing styles.

Though I never claimed my opinions are the end of the matter any more than yours.

[Skelron]

I hated that "Two Towers" movie. Why the hell did he make f***ing the elves come?

Just as an example of why Peter Jackson added the Elves and showing that he can handle translations it comes in two parts.

First, if he had not added the Elves the impression those who had not read Tolkien would have had of the Elves I feel is 'Big wow, so they had a council and oh sent one guy to go help out and then Buggered off'

This was not the Elves, the Elves had been holding Sauron off in Lothlorien for Years, basically closing off one entire avenue for his forces to attack from, closing off an entire flank. Unfortunatly Peter Jackson could not show this in the time a movie has. So he added them to Helms Deep. Allowing it too be seen that they where doing something. (And note that the great meaning of Helms deep is still present as none of the Elves apart from Legolas survive the Flame is still passed on in my humble opinion.)

2.) It looks good, you have a small force that you know stands no chance, and then another small force suddenly joins them. This force too would have no chance, but suddenly you look at the two together and you think... They might wi, together they can do it. This is good in a Movie it's part of the slow build up of tension then a small hint of hope, then you can start to dash it again.

Those of you want a completly faithful rendition of LOTR well there is a Cartoon movie that followed it a lot closer. It sucks, and I mean SUCKS, but it exists. Do you want to know why it Sucks, because Book to Movie Transitions should never be exact they are two different media's.

Peter Jackson has shown that he understands on the whole the differance between book and Movie, between the written and the animated, and I feel he could do the same with WH40K.

Now interestingly enough it is true that Chris Tolkien does not support the Movie, but the White Wizard himself, the spy from Star wars whose name escapes me at the moment. Has a letter from Tolkien himself (Obviously before his death) giving him his personal permission to play Gandalf if a Movie ever came to be. ((Actually remembers an old interview with the Actor before the movies where cast, and he mentions that his greatest acting dream would be to play Gandalf. The interviewer mentioned the Movies being cast and records that his face was a picture. And that he was on the Phone as he was leaving to his Agent. Thats my only regret about the movie, I'd have loved to See Christopher Lee. (Suddenly remembers the name I think) play Gandalf.))

And sorry if that went of topic a bit the Tolkien Nazis get a bit anoying at times.

Double Post

As a second post because it's addressing a different point, and I thought about it after the above.

What I'd like to see in a 40K movie.

For a start I wouldn't make it one Movie, I'd aim for between three to four movies to start a francise off. Looking at the Emps, you do as an intro the basic idea of the Dark Age of Technology and the age of strife, and cut to Earth. Here you have the Emps emerge and start his campaign to reunify Earth this should be the first Movie ending with him setting foot on Mars.

Second Movie is presented as a few years later, again a brief intro explaining the Primarchs creation and scattering. This movie should focus on the times leading up to the Horus Heresy, with the Emps finding Horus. In fact here you should turn attention onto Horus, making him the main character of the Movie rather than the Emps, give the impression of time passing and that these are the key moments in Horus life. This Movie should end with the start of the Horus Heresy. Preferably people should be left confused as to who is the 'Bad' guy at this point. Have it appear that people where driven to the side of Chaos.

Third The Horus-Heresy, here you start to show the descent the Primarchs who have turned to Chaos are making, show it as a Road to hell type scenerio for many of them. As they slowly begin to lose themselves to the Chaos powers. Here where I am unsure, should this movie go into the Siege of Emperor's Palace on Earth or should that be reserved for it's own Movie?

[kalju-luopio]

Might end up a little bit too documentary Skelron, don't you think? Not a bad idea itself, but it could be a little too heavy for non-enthusiasts to watch(lots of history to learn etc.).

Those mocking Peter Jackson for not doing this or that with the Lord of the Rings trilogy, try and put yourself in his position. Not many top end directors would be willing to take on this kind of projects, but amazingly Jackson did. Making expensive movies like this is never so straightforward some of you might think. If the producer takes a look in what you consider the best scene ever and says "this is horrible, take it out" You really don't have that much of a choice. I watched all the three movies easily and think they were OK. Someone might have done it better, but that is sheer speculation of something that will not happen in propably decades to come.

This leads me to the conclusion that a true 40k movie should be low budjet(no it is not necessarily crap) thus eliminting the need to be a big hit everywhere. Keeping the scale at minimum and dropping most of the huge battle scenes that seem to dominate todays movies and forgetting the oh-so-acrobatically-beautiful-kung-fu-bullshit the battle scenes are filled with nowadays(really, after the Matrix, everything has been saturated by WAY TOO LONG kung-fu fights). This combined with a good script and talented director(not necessarily a well known one), might give birth to something that is not only good 40k stuff, but also a good movie.

I think Verhoven pulled something out with StarShip Troopers, that few director have guts(or sanity) to do. He took the big bucks from the producers and in return shoved their american dream up their asses. No wonder he has not gotten any big movies ever since.

[Hadrian]

You can't do a good 40K movie low budget.

You do that, and I guarantee Starship Troopers 2, lol.

And Verhoeven more likely buried his career with Hollow Man, not SST. He does have two projects in the works right now though.

[kalju-luopio]

I see. Why is it that big budget is needed to make a good 40k movie? the props? the set? CGI? Nope, none of those require tens of millions of dollars. Sam Peckinpah took 5 T-34 tanks and made them look like 50 in the Cross of Iron. In my opinion, creativity beats big money, when the makers are dedicaded enough.

[Hadrian]

Because first off, unless you ignore 80% of the universe, you need to generate new special effects. Taking 5 existing objects like a T-34 (and God knows the Russians made a fat lot of those) and making them into 50 is pretty simple these days. However, constructing entirely new special effects is a costly process. Everything in 40K would need to be newly created. If you use Space Marines, you need camera tricks, and/or suits because last time I checked there aren't many 7 foot tall bodybuilders out there. Tyranids would need to be mostly CGI, and completely done from scratch, as well would demons, and the like.

You are right, that creativity always beats big budget, and I will agree that special effects can easily be overused (reference the terrible Matrix Sequels). But there are some times when you can't make a movie without the effects. Even Peter Jackson said that making a LotR movie wasn't possible until they had the ability to use the sort of Special Effects they did.

40K is a universe grand in scope. If you wanted to make a clausterphobic horror genre film off of 40K, it could be done with a low budget, but at that point, why would a production company pay for the licensing for the name when it could make the movie even cheaper without associating GW, and do what GW has always done, just steal and alter slightly the ideas?

[kalju-luopio]

Yes, to make props, craftsmen are needed and to create good CGI somekind of experts are needed also, meaning that money is required, but look at the downside of obscene budjet. The more money is used, the more people you need to get to theatres to even level the expenses. This means quality suffers. 40k is not something that can be done correctly and still get a rating for the movie that kids can go see it(average 12 for LotR). Plus you need romance, pretty boys like O. Bloom for the girls and this is not something that fits the picture(in my opinion, unless Orlando is a blood angel, buahha, hey I take my words back, it might even work!)

Audience is the main reason why I think the budjet should be limited, not a zero, for god sakes I did not mean that, but not even near those Hollywood spectacles like Lord of the Rings. There just isn't enough of us 40k lunatics to fill the theatres.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see an epic warmovie about 40k, but right now, it just seems too difficult to pull through.

Maybe we should gather a group of enthusiasts, make a script that works, then take it to GW and start begging for funding. Who knows, the Lord of Change might accidentally kick us through.

[Hadrian]

Sorry, but anything less than an R Rating, and it isn't 40K. And they don't have to just sell to the 40K players. If they do it well enough they can sell it to everyone.

Look at all the hooplah over SkyCaptain and that movie is just like Crimson Skies...

[FerociousBeast]

Those mocking Peter Jackson for not doing this or that with the Lord of the Rings trilogy, try and put yourself in his position. Not many top end directors would be willing to take on this kind of projects, but amazingly Jackson did. Making expensive movies like this is never so straightforward some of you might think. If the producer takes a look in what you consider the best scene ever and says "this is horrible, take it out" You really don't have that much of a choice. I watched all the three movies easily and think they were OK. Someone might have done it better, but that is sheer speculation of something that will not happen in propably decades to come.

My problem with Peter Jackson is that he shouldn't have done it to begin with. No one should have. Well, that's my primary problem. My secondary problem is that he got a bunch of sentimental women to write the script and my tertiary problem is that he obviously doesn't give a shit about Tolkien, or at least enough of a shit. Fuck Jackson. Oh yeah and my quadrilary problem is Elijah Wood. Period.

[Hadrian]

Tell us how you really feel.

While I agree the movies weren't nearly as awesome as everybody has made them out to be (Two Towers became a 3 hour long short joke and the plot got more or less glossed over in RotK in order to show more action scenes and more footage of Legolas doing absurd stunts), but I don't think there was anything sacred or untouchable about Tolkein's work that made the movies questionable.

[phoenixhazard]

The Horus Heresy is a MUST for the theme of the movie, of course the movie will never happen.

[Ramrod]

horus heresy as a theme for the movie... hmmm...

this is what the movie execs would say:
"i just heard about this awesome license called warmonger 30000! lets buy the movie rights to it, its so totally LOTR in space! cash cow movie! wooo! lets make it into a movie with gi-fucking-normous action sequences, zero plot content, and the character development and emotional impact of a folger's coffee commercial on mute! yay! oh, and lets get leonardo dicaprio to play a role, this dude called sanguinius! awesome!"

as hadrian is saying the second and third LOTRs were, so shall be a horus heresy movie. i stand by my statement that the only moderately-translatable-to-big-screen 40k games are inquisitor or kill-team.

[Skelron]

My problem with Peter Jackson is that he shouldn't have done it to begin with. No one should have. Well, that's my primary problem. My secondary problem is that he got a bunch of sentimental women to write the script and my tertiary problem is that he obviously doesn't give a shit about Tolkien, or at least enough of a shit. Fuck Jackson. Oh yeah and my quadrilary problem is Elijah Wood. Period.

LoL yes obviously didn't care about Tolkien which is why he pored over not only Lord of the Rings but all of the other works on Middle Earth by Tolkien. I mean he didn't care right which is why they referanced EVERYTHING.

Really what did you want a word for word exact duplicate of Lord of the Rings. Ahh I know what it was it was the Love story wasn't it? Well I have heard his reasons for putting that in and I agree, the simple fact is he was worried that the Marriage at the end would appear so forced without any build up. He wanted to show they where really in love, that it wasn't some sort of arranged marriage. The books do not make that clear as the story has already occured, and so he moved some events up to the events in the movie.

The cut down on Characters, because Movies do not have big long lists of characters,t hat you keep an eye on. And so he moved some characters roles into other characters. Not because he did not respect the characters but from the simple rule of, if they only do this one thing in the books then setting up the needed character building time is going to detract from the over all theme.

As for the Faramir bit, that was perhaps in some ways a mistake, but again he had his reasons. He had spent the last few hours of screen time building up the ring as a corrupting force. A Force that can get anyone, to have Faramir just turn round and ignore the pull of the ring would have been to cheapen it. It would have destroyed the fear of the ring in the movie going public's eyes. So he changed some bits, showed Faramir tempted, and yet in the end able to Beat that temptation.

I don't know but I like that aspect, I honestly think that the LORT movies where fantastic, exactly what I have been waiting for since I was 8 years old (I am now 24, that is a long wait and worth it.) Exactly what my Father who has been waiting for the movies even longer than I have. (As in his entire life almost) I accept the bits he cut, the bits he altered etc, to make a BETTER movie. the cuts would have made the book bad, I know, but they made the movie Great because a Movie and a book are different.

Edit Notes isn't it odd how you can get your age wrong, I am currently 23 but in December will be 24. Still not much differance there I guess 3 Months early with my age.

[kalju-luopio]

[QUOTE=Hadrian]Sorry, but anything less than an R Rating, and it isn't 40K. And they don't have to just sell to the 40K players. If they do it well enough they can sell it to everyone.
[QUOTE]

I agree, I meant to take back my words about Orlando not fitting the picture. A prime blood angel he would make, heh heh. As for other than blood angel actors, they should be ugly as hell. Take Das Boot for example, here you find some great actors and not a single pretty face.

Those who really think Tolkien got raped in the LotR movies, you shouldn't feel that bad. The movies propably inspired some people to actually read the damn books, being a ten pound brick, it is not that easy for everybody to go through.

[FerociousBeast]

Really what did you want a word for word exact duplicate of Lord of the Rings.

Hey Skelron. Read my first sentence. You know, the one that you should have read first. The second sentence is nice too.

And if you watch the special features on the DVDs, which I have, you get the definite feeling that Jackson was more worried about making a palatable movie than staying true to the spirit of the books and its characters. Which is understandable considering the monetary funds trusted to him, however this whole thing was his baby. He asked for it, and if he was going to go out of his way to ask for it, he should have had more of a commitment to the actual spirit of the books rather than merely making a successful film. Otherwise he is nothing other than a literary rapist.

It's true that some people think he was true to the spirit of the books. I'm sure he himself thinks so. But I disagree, and just about all of the "hard-core" Tolkien fans I have talked to have agreed with me.

But anyway, none of this matters. Read my primary problem. Primary means it's more important than the others.

Double Post


Tell us how you really feel.

While I agree the movies weren't nearly as awesome as everybody has made them out to be (Two Towers became a 3 hour long short joke and the plot got more or less glossed over in RotK in order to show more action scenes and more footage of Legolas doing absurd stunts), but I don't think there was anything sacred or untouchable about Tolkein's work that made the movies questionable.

As a non-fan, I would expect nothing less from you. However, I being a fan, and many others who also consider themselves fans have had something that they really and truly loved soiled and desecrated.

That's how I feel.

[Hadrian]

Yes, but Hard Core Tolkein fans don't buy enough tickets to movies to make up the cost of that budget.

Tolkein isn't God, his books aren't the Bible. Nothing has been desecrated. Fans of books will always find reasons to get indignant and offended at what "Hollywood" has done to their movie, but honestly, those movies came out better than any other book adaption I've ever seen, especially with the challenge of taking a weak narrative like LotR and emplacing dialogue and action into it.

Jackson put his entire career, and years of his life into the LotR trilogy. To suggest that he wasn't committed to making the best end product he could is absurd.

If you want soiling and desecration, refer back to the terrible animated movies. If you feel Jackson dragged it through the mud, it was only back through for a second pass.

[Rent-a-Zilla]

W40K is far too dark for someone like Jackson.

[FerociousBeast]

Well, first off, the animated movies weren't terrible. They were simply for kids. And the reason they didn't soil anything is because they weren't popular. These movies have been incredibly popular, and they have forever effected the way people now and in the future will read the books. In my opinion, the effect has not been a good one. Therefore they have been desecrated.

Plus, I derived much pleasure in the past from discussing the books with people, because it was a relative rarity to find another fan. Now it's just like commenting on the weather.

Secondly, Jackson put years of his life and his career on the line to make a successful movie, not necessarily the best one he could have. And making a successful movie is precisely what he did. But making the best he didn't.

[Hadrian]

Ahhh, so because it has changed the way you enjoy it, it means the way others enjoy it is wrong.

I got it. Just another literary elitist book snob. You're the kind of person that makes me wary about writing. I'd hate to think that one day people would be reading books I might write with that kind of attitude. Tolkein presented his visage of a fantasy world for the enjoyment of all, not for just a select few.

At least you cleared it up for us.

[FerociousBeast]

Actually, you're wrong there, pal. Tolkien wrote the books primarily for himself. Well, for himself and for his son. Oh by the way, his son strongly objected to the making of these movies, but unfortunately had sold the rights away during the 70s or 80s or something so had no real say. Tolkien I am sure would have agreed.

Literary elitist book snob? Maybe. But regardless, I strongly object to anyone who takes any kind of art work, pulls it off the wall/bookshelf/movierack/whatever and pisses on it, whether intentionally or unintentionally. If this makes me a snob, so be it.

[Hadrian]

The good news is, you're in a small minority that believes that Jackson pissed on the books.

However, you can probably find a great number of compatriots in the Star Wars community.

[FerociousBeast]

The greater majority of course having not read them before the movies, if at all.

[TheLoneKnight]

Truthfully I wouldn't have been so dissapointed in Jackson had he not adding lengthy scenes that were never mentioned, references, or would have happened even "behind the scenes" in the books themselves.

And then he cut out -actual- events that might have added to the overall feel of the movie, just because he wanted to see elves at Helm's Deep. Augh. =_=


Incidentally, I -am- a fan of Tolkien's works. Sure, the books aren't masterfully written, but words aren't the most important area of it. Tolkien had an entire fantasy world-- the most realistic I've ever even heard of. That he took such painstaking effort and time to create a palpable world that, honestly enough, isn't so unbelievable as most fantasy novels, I find amazing. Sure, anyone can draw maps and give directions for their fantasy world, but how many authors actually create a speakable language for it? Or for that matter, would ANY of them actually name the flora and fauna, giving each various names depending on the language they're referred to in?

The true experience of Tolkien isn't the simple reading of words and later saying: "Oh, well, it was a good book." Reading the Lord of the Rings takes effort, and in most cases people give up long before the first book ends. It's not a simple lesiure read like most novels out there, not to me at least, it's an entire world filled with beings and creatures you could almost touch and and smell.

I don't think Peter Jackson should have made the movies, personally. If he had been at least faithful to the world enough to spare adding nonsense and one-line jokes, I might truly feel differently. But the fact is that he didn't. He added alot of things that had absolutely nothing to do with the plot, and only added them for the sake of more fighting, or more elves.

Peter Jackson "Americanized" a series, a world, a fantasy that is in many ways the most realistic one anyone has created. Therefore, I am forced to agree with Ferocious Beast. Jackson desecrated a beautiful creation, not of literary art, but of imaginative.

And now, whenever I read the books, I shall be eternally reminded of a horrid excuse for Gimli son of Gloin, and an even more prancy and idiotic Legolas. Oddly enough, I wasn't dissapointed with Aragorn.

..Oh. And Gollum. I had such a beautiful image of Gollum before those movies. Now it's eternally ruined by that ^$#king voice actor.. -_-

[Hadrian]

Sure, the books aren't masterfully written, but words aren't the most important area of it.

This is what i've always said.


the most realistic I've ever even heard of.

I'd have to say that that award has to go to George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series. If you haven't read this and you're a fan of fantasy, they are a must have.

[TheLoneKnight]

So this George guy..he wrote his own "Bible" describing how his world was created? Did he name the little flower off to the side of the path in four or five different languages.. even though it has nothing to do with the plot? Oh! Oh! Did he create characters and races that have been imitated so often I've lost count? :o

[Hadrian]

Tolkein didn't create Elves or Orks or Goblins or Halflings etc. He did create a lot of what was imitated, and was highly influential, but that wasn't the question posed. Nobody is doubting Tolkein's influence. But like the Beatles, he was only the first, not the best (though neither of them were technically first).

And yes, Martin created religions, flora, fauna, as well as a dynamic, and believable three dimensional world for his stories to take place whereas regardless of the amount of history Tolkein wrote, his characters and kingdoms were rather flat and unbelievable.

The qualifier was realistic, and realistic worlds don't have Dwarves who don't know one of their own cities has fallen to Goblins. They don't have a vast wasteland with no water, food, or flora that somehow can sustain a gigantic army of Orks.

Martin's characters are three dimensional, with realistic motivations, family histories, desires, and most importantly flaws. The story isn't predictable, and the good guys aren't puritanically good, nor are the bad guys always starkly bad by contrast. While he has his arch villains, and unspeakable evils, instead he concentrates on characterizations. The series is full of plot twists, heroic victories, and tragic defeats. Deceit, treachery, love, hate, lust, all mixed together in what I'd say is probably the most masterful fantasy storytelling...well... ever. Each of his novels is larger in page length and scope than the entire LotR trilogy.

Of course, you'd rather judge ahead of time. I've read both and say this.

And if my word doesn't do it for you, he's been compared to Tolkein by everyone from Robert Jordan, Raymond Feist (who is a great guy, btw, he lives right near where I used to and I got to know him pretty well), and by many of the biggest literature critics. The guy has won a closet full of awards for this series and others he has written.

[Yuryu]

They don't have a vast wasteland with no water, food, or flora that somehow can sustain a gigantic army of Orks.
True, but neither does the lord of the rings. As you can read in the books, the area around the sea of Nurnen is were the food comes from. And water was supplied too, remember the wells that were beside the roads in Mordor every mile or so?

I haven't read the Ice and Fire series, perhaps I should. But remember that Lotr also doesn't have perfectly good against perfectly bad. Saruman anyone?


The series is full of plot twists, heroic victories, and tragic defeats. Deceit, treachery, love, hate, lust, all mixed together
And Lord of the Rings doesn't?

[Hadrian]

Maybe I'd forgotten about the wells, hmmm. I'll take your word for it, my copies are boxed up.

Not really. The plot is pretty linear and there's really very little exploration of the "human" side of it beyond very basic tenets.

[TheLoneKnight]

..Still, Tolkien put an absolutely insane amount of effort into that story. And sure, while the plot was predictable, it was the best predictable plot I had ever heard. Sure, the good guys win every battle, but back then, they always did. Of course, these days we want characters we can relate to, not look up to.

As for the characters being flat.. I don't think so. There was quite a bit of betrayal, much of it suicidal. Come on. Denethor trying to kill his last surviving son, therein dooming his entire family line? Or what about Boromir, trying to kill Frodo for the ring? Or Bilbo and Gollum, and their insane, bizarre, and very twisted Ring-fetish.

Sure, the characters aren't "realistic" by todays standards, but you've also got to remember that in his storyline, there is no -reason- to be cynical and corrupt. Not usually. The entire story was about a group of royalty, (Legolas is a Prince, Gimli is the son of one of the Dwarves that originally went accompanying Gandalf and Bilbo in "The Hobbit", and is therefore excessively rich. Boromir is the son of Denethor, steward of Gondor, Aragorn is heir to the throne...), And honestly, do you expect heroic royalty to act and behave like your average schmo? Of course not. They grew up in a land where heros were born in flame and agony, and were respected for it. It was a land where your enemy may not always be clear, but corruption, (and there -was- quite a bit of untrust outside the fellowship, if you read carefully), runs quite rampant.

And in that sense, not only has Tolkien created a world that -is- quite believable, and is even somewhat similar to what we have today. The only difference is that the various emotions, creeds, morals, and such are spread across various races. He represented his views on war, of propaganda, of pacifism and so many other touchy subjects in that novel. The Orks-- the faceless enemy. You never want to believe that they truly think and breathe, not in warfare, all you can do is hope that they are little more than machines.. hope to ease your conscience.

As for Tolkien being imitated, we are all quite aware that he derived much of the origins of his races from folklore. On the other hand, he created Elves that weren't stupid little forest pixies, but were rather elegant poets and ageless warriors. And, for instance, he created Hobbits. That's worth SOMETHING, isn't it?

Oh..and one last thing, and this has REALLY annoyed me. Many people treat the use of magic as a day-to-day thing in fantasy mythos. In reality, do you think people who could create flame from thin air would be as common as they are in D&D? Heck no. I loved the idea of the select few wizards, servants to various Gods lording over Middle-Earth, being able to use supernatural abilities that any other being-- elves included-- could only stand and gawk at.

Oh! I forgot! About the Dwarves and Moria.. Funny story. It had only been attacked a few months before-- the Dwarves are excessively secluded and greedy and care very little for things other than their precious mines-- and it was the Balrog that truly butchered them. It was around the Balrog that the "Goblins", (Another thing Jackson screwed up: Goblins and Orcs were the SAME THING. But like humanity, they come in various shapes and sizes), flocked to the Ancient enemy of Good, and with Sauron's guidance, they decimated the Dwarves before they could escape.

Edit: Also. About the touch of the "human" side to it.. Your view is skewered. Tolkien's world was NOT about Humanity. It was about each and every race. Every race that had been involved in this war. They do NOT all share the same morals and values as humans. Tolkien DID touch on the Human side-- he just didn't focus on it. He gave attention to each and every race nearly equally, with the humans coming out on top beside Hobbits. That's the biggest difference between what you say Fire & Ice is, and what Lord of the Rings is. Lord of the Rings isn't about humanity, it's about heroism and war. Incidentally, he wrote most of it while fighting in a war.

[Thalasion]

Apparently, they gave a copy of the old realm of chaos books to Stanley Kubric to maybe make a film, and he was thinking about doing it, but he diead:(

[Skelron]

Hey Skelron. Read my first sentence. You know, the one that you should have read first. The second sentence is nice too.

You mean where you say you'd have not wanted any movie, meh. I ignored it and made a general comment aimed at all the Tolkien Nazi's out there.



And if you watch the special features on the DVDs, which I have, you get the definite feeling that Jackson was more worried about making a palatable movie than staying true to the spirit of the books and its characters.

Watched them listened to the commentries, oh and I listened to the Commentries by Christopher Lee, an incrediably intellagent man, who reads Tolkiens works, oh roughly... Once a year, and you know he seemed to have no problems with the changes made. Because he recognises the differance between a book and a Movie. Yes Jackson wanted to make a great movie and made changes that would helkp to make a great movie. Because he recognised that a great book does not = a great Movie.

His changes where all made to help the spirit of the books through, and where possible he made no changes, thats Tolkiens Elven they speak, he didn't have to hire people that where linquistic experts in Elven, he did because it was something that wouldn't detract from the movie to use.



Which is understandable considering the monetary funds trusted to him, however this whole thing was his baby. He asked for it, and if he was going to go out of his way to ask for it, he should have had more of a commitment to the actual spirit of the books rather than merely making a successful film. Otherwise he is nothing other than a literary rapist.



As already said he made changes that helped the spirit of the film, and more importently made sure it was a damned good film. He made sure people understood all races where fighting in this war, that the Elves hadn't just packed up and got sticking two fongers in the air up the humans as they did it. (After all if after the intro and the Last alliance the Elves where never seen fighting again people would have gone 'Eh what was the point') He had to show the elves fighting again, So he could either add in the fight over in Lothlorian which would have slowed the plot or he could have them arrive at a tense moment and give hope again. Which would advance the plot. Movie Directors must first and formost keep the plot going.

So He choose Helms Deep, and it makes sense.



It's true that some people think he was true to the spirit of the books. I'm sure he himself thinks so. But I disagree, and just about all of the "hard-core" Tolkien fans I have talked to have agreed with me.

Tolkien nazi's who feel any change to the works of Tolkien are plain wrong, do all feel that way I agree the rest of us more accepting fans, those of us who for example have merely read Hobbit, LOTR, Similalon, etc, arn't so crazy. The majority of Middle Earth Fans I have spoken to love the Movies and understand the changes. Snobs alone are exempt, and those Snobs, like yourself didn't want a movie in the first place so...

You didn't like the films, you wouldn't have liked any films through... So I guess it dosn't matter whether you liked them or not. He wasn't making the Movie for the Nazi Fans, he was making it for the majority of fans




As a non-fan, I would expect nothing less from you. However, I being a fan, and many others who also consider themselves fans have had something that they really and truly loved soiled and desecrated.

That's how I feel.

I don't and I consider myself a Fan infact I consider Middle Earth to have been one of the defining influances in my life, my parents will agree. You see before I could read my Father told me the story of the Hobbit, then later I read it to myself, by the time I had left Primary school. (IE before I was 11 years old) I had read Lord of he Rings and never looked back. So I certainly consider myself a fan..

As for my family, well with a Father who read me the Hobbit and put it in his own words, you can understand he's somewhat of a Tolkien fan. He Never saw anything desercrated or soiled. He saw it come to life before him.

To the many fans of the Lord of The rings I have spoken too, the vast majority fall in the, 'I liked the movies' Camp, most accept changes will be made for a movie, and most where happy to the see movie come to life before them.

[FerociousBeast]

I think I need to clarify something here. Overall, and with some rather major exceptions, I think the movies were good AS MOVIES. Well made, entertaining, epic, etc etc etc. I did in fact enjoy watching them. What I did not like is the effect they have had on the way I read the books and the way people in the future will. I think an incredibly key sentence in your sentence, Skelron, is this one:

"He [your father] saw it come to life before him."

This is precisely why I think it was such a bad thing for Jackson, or anyone really, to make the movies. The books were made to come to life in your imagination. The books have lived for me in my imagination for years, but now whenever I read them, instead of Aragorn I'm going to see Viggo Mortensen, instead of Frodo, Elijah Woods, instead of Sauron, some incredibly dopey looking guy who can knock entire armies around with a swing of his hammer, yet can't seem to prevent one wounded guy at his feet from chopping his Precious Ring off. Do you now see what I mean?

And the odds are incredibly high that a person who reads the books for the first time in the future will have already seen the movies, and so will have his imagination, and the spirit Tolkien wished for, skewed before he even starts chapter one.

This is, of course, a criticism that can be applied to any movie based on a book, but with Tolkien, where one's imagination plays such a key part in its reading, it is especially apt.

Maybe you're saying, "Well, screw you Ferocious. I prefer to see things rather than imagine them. So fuck off." OK. I admit that some people don't like using their imaginations as much as others. But the making of this movie ensures that it is very difficult for anyone to enjoy it with their own imaginations, regardless of whether or not they wish to. And that is where the desecration comes in.

P.S. I have some rejoinders/objections/rebuttals to others of your points above, but I'll get to them later. Right now, I'm going to play some DoW Demo :) then off to work.

[Gerog]

I agree some scenes should have been in the movies ie. Bombadill etc
But some cutting was necessary, unless of course you would enjoy a trilogy of 6 hour movies
I still enjoyed the movies, even if they were slightly varied from the books


and john rhys-davies is way too FAT to be a marine. remember, these guys are fitter than is humanly possible, there would be absolutely no lipid on any of them...


Apparently you havent seen John Rhys-Davies out of his Gimli role, he is one of the tallest cast members, and its not actually that hard to lose weight.. Lots of actors lose and gain stacks of weight for roles

Anyway, that does really matter in my opinion because in my opinion i think a CG movie would be the way to go, Probably focusing on the Horus Heresy would be a good way to start things off

[FerociousBeast]

Another clarification. I knew from the get go that the movies would have to vary from the books, and I was perfectly fine with that (this was way back when I was a youngster, before the movies came out, and was still excited about the project). I completely agree with Jackson for not putting Bombadil or the Barrow Wights or the Old Forest in Fellowship. Even though these parts were good in the book, putting them into the movie just wasn't feasible. Variation and cutting is inevitable, like a force of nature, and therefore not an evil.

But Jackson went way beyond acceptable degrees of variation and started hacking at the very roots of the book. I've said it before, but let me repeat myself. Jackson originally intended to have Arwen at the battle of Helm's Deep. Nuff said right there.

[Bl00d_R4VenS]

Im dreaming of a warhammer40k trilogy of movies with expensive actors,orchestral music score, plenty of cgi and hell of a story. Everything else would be ruining it...

[FerociousBeast]

I think inexpensive actors would actually be better. One of the reasons Star Wars was so successful and so enduring is because its actors were unknown, and for the most part, did nothing afterwards. We never saw Luke Skywalker get old and do crappy movies (unfortunately unlike one of his co-stars . .).

Unknown actors make movies like this much more immersive in my opinion.

Oh yeah, and the implementation of CGI should almost always be minimalist. Almost real isn't good enough.

[Bl00d_R4VenS]

Oh comeon ure telling me that u dont want to see Sean Connery as an old space marine in terminator armor, hed give so much personality and stuff...Imagine Jack nicholson as a chaos lord, oh man possibilites are endless. As to why a motion picture doesnt exist is a mistery to me because the wh40k universe is so deep and well developed that u can make an awesome movie with so little effort...

Double Post

"Deathwing" story would make for an excellent warhammer40k movie, if anyone went through it they should know what im talking bout...

[FerociousBeast]

Ahahahaahahaahahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahhahahahaha! Your case just went down the crapper :)

Sean Connery as a Terminator? Jack Nicholson? Holy shit no!

[Dimension]

i could actually see nicholson as an inquisitor.

and gary oldman as a slaneesh daemon prince :D

[Fang]

Meh.. You dont need Peter jackson, or live action.. Just get those guys who made the DOW Intro to make a 2hour long thing.. That imo would bo so badass it could not be described with words..

[Bl00d_R4VenS]

Ahahahaahahaahahahahhahahahahahaahahahhahhahahahaha! Your case just went down the crapper :)

Sean Connery as a Terminator? Jack Nicholson? Holy shit no!

yeah good arguments...wait...i cant seem to find any

Sean connery would own as an old termie...

[VidiVici]

I would add the guy of team who created the atmosphere from "the chronnicles of riddick"
I know the scenorio is childish at times
And the dialogs contain too much of cliches

BUT damn I loved the atmoshere of those necros.
I think it is the closest thing to 40k out there atm.

Double Post

So in my opinion take the team of riddick but sack tose lousy writers
Even Vin Diesel could make a relatively creadible SM

Double Post

As for scenario I think a star wars (original) type of movie with bigger battles would be better then the LOTR type

[FerociousBeast]

I don't think you can really have an original Star Wars type movie with bigger battles. The cool thing about the Star Wars movies is that they were space adventures, not space epics, like Lucas is trying to do with the prequel trilogy. Well, RotJ dabbled in some battle elements, but most people agree that it was the worst of the three.

[Murloc]

http://www.terrorsthreshold.com/pp/Murloc%2520Lover/Spacehollywood.jpg

oh yeah. that would work.

[Fang]

Wow I could just see patrick steward as a marine getting in a rhino.. Looking at the driver and saying Engage... Bah those are the last people we need in this movie.. It would have to be almost all CG like the DOW intro.

[CanadianGaurd]

OMFG, this thread is still going on? I must have created the longest thread for this forum! What'd I miss? LOL.

Anywayz, y'know what I'd like to see? Black Hawk Down 40,000 years in the future with IG and Stormtroopers rescuing other Stormtroopers from downed Valkyries! It would take place on a Jungle/Desert planet overrun by Orks. What d'ya think?

[flyinghamofdoom]

Ive been in my fair share of forums, seen my fair share of crack pot topics, berated my fair share of forum goons, and been threatened by my fair share of admins. But this topic...definitely out there.

I dont think this is a good idea at all. Even with sean connery.

[FerociousBeast]

Good ol' Sean doesn't look like his mind's quite in the battle.

"Ohhhh, ish that a pretty woman I shee . ."

Ian McKellan looks like he's having entirely too much fun. But, surrounded by so many tall, muscular and manly men, of course he would be. (suddenly realizing that some might question my own orientation, I must specify for those not in the know that Ian McKellen is gay)

[CanadianGaurd]

Bah! Does'nt anybody like my Stormtrooper technothriller idea??

[CenturionCajun]

Whenever I think of a 40k movie I think Battle of Macragge. Just have it about the defenders of the Northern Polar Defense station and if done properly it could be awesome. They would be like the defenders of the Alamo trapped and contemplating their lives while fighting off wave after xave of Tyranids. Then have the tragic last stand only to have the rest of the Ultramarines arrive to clean up the Tyranids. Could be great stuff if done correctly.

[flyinghamofdoom]

So could a lot of things. Like the Matrix.

But it doesnt mean its gonna happen.

[Crux_Terminatus]

Have you guys seen the trailer for the warhammer 40k film damnatus, the full movie comes out in the next couple months so ive read it looks really good for a low budget film and worth watching if your a 40k fan you can find the trailer at their website have a look around its easy to find its a german site, cnt post the url but jus remember damnatus and you'll be right

[~DeathJester~]

i know its off topic, but has anyone heard of the star wars clone wars animations? well they were 5 mins long each episode and they were great. If warhammer 40k was made into a animation series starting with the Horus Heresy then i think it would work pretty well. However, i have doubts they will make an actaul film.

They could make a film for a book though e.g. Gaunt's Ghosts or Crusade for Armageddon.

[Sierra 19]

If you ask me, it should be CGI, like Toy Story, Monsters Inc., A Bug's Life, ect... You could model everyone appropriately, and you could make it SM & IG vs whoever. Scale and terrain wouldn't be a problem, so all you would need is voice acting. That way, you could get excellent voice-overs without having to worry about what the people look like. You could use some good B movie actors with the right voice inflections, and make them 8' tall in power armor, and add scads of cool effects. Think of a full length motion picture, that's 2 hours of the opening video for DoW! Blood, carnage, death and dismemberment, with a well written story thrown in for good measure, and it'll be great! Even if it was straight to DVD release, it would be worth it.

[Dante]

Thanks for digging up this old thread jackass. :thumb:

[BlindManBoots]

What the hell. Just stop necroposting everyone.