The Empire vs. Homeworld

[AcolyteOfDeath]

Let's assume for a moment that homeworld starships are on the same proportions as Imperial Starships (I.e. Heavy Cruiser is as long as an Imperial Star Destroyer). Who would win in a fight?

[SquidDNA]

Bad assumption. Say a scout is twice the size of a TIE figther, now consider that TIE fighters launch from the enormous star destroyers.

[Thorn]

Yeah... I think an HC could ram a Star Destoyer and keep on trucking.

[SvK]

Scouts are about 40m long.
TIE fighters are maybe 8m.

HCs are a bit shorter than Star Destroyers, but they're tubbier, so they probably have more volume.

[SquidDNA]

I forgot that the dimensions of these craft actually exist. Whoops.

I'm going to go with the Star Destroyer. Those things are bristling with energy weapons, and also have shields. Plus they each carry fighters, not to mention boarding parties. Can anyone say "All your HVC are belong to the Emperor?"

[ceejayoz]

How about the fact that the Hiigaran fleet in HW:C is about as big as a single Imperial fleet?

Even if the Empire doesn't have technological superiority (which I think they do), they'd have such numerical superiority that they could just throw ships at the Hiigaran ships until they die.

[IgnusDei]

how about putting two ships one on one and speculate on the outcome? Like, say, the millenium falcon vs an MGC.

[SquidDNA]

The MGC would own the Falcon. Sorry.

[Dyntheos]

I beg to differ as the Falcon can take direct asteriod hits and continue on, plus it has sheilds, it's fast, maneoverable (dodges multiple black holes even), and it's own quad laser turrets (both of them) would probably be able to out track the MGC's. Coupled with the fact that it has a hyperdrive on it as well...

MGC's own in groups, one on one I think that the falcon would out perform the MGC.

Don't forget also that the falcon has 2 death star kills stenciled on it's cockpit. :hwpilot:

[reki]

and that the falcon is the fastest heap of junk in the galaxy. i have never seen an mgcv hide in the belly of a giant galactic worm, either.

ps. falcon hyperdrive never works dyn.

[Harmanoff]

Malsar had a few great starship silhoutte charts. I've not seen him in ages but i have them on my hd. Anybody like to host?

From what i remember the Star Destroyer is about 1400 metres. Add to that about 50 turbo laser batterys and 50 regular laser batterys. I think they'd whop an HC pretty easy. Of course, those ion cannon might be a pain...

[Thaum]

Yeah I have those charts too......

Interesting that you say that Harm, because I looking at all the reviews lately and thinking the exact same thing as not one of them is by Malsar.......

Himself and Varok are normally the review freaks...... ;)

Hmmmm I wonder where he is.

But back on topic....... I reckon that the HW ships would wipe the floor with the empire one's. Imagine what a rake of MBF would do to thousands of 8m tie-fighters.

Also what a swarm of Ion Frigriates would do to a Super Star edestroyer...... Looks like a lovely big bang to me.

[SajuukCor]

Super Star Destroyer peh. It only took one Y-Wing (or was it A-Wing?) to fly into the bridge to take it down :D

Also Ion Cannons would rule the Imperial's fleet. The fleet's armor is to withstand laser and turbolaser attacks, not high energy particle weapons. Look what happened at Hoth ;)

[Vaarok]

two "a"s buddy. Two.


As for starwars vs HW, I'd have to go that SW would probably win. They've got energy shielding that can stop a crashing fighter from hitting their ship, and SSDs supposedly have manufacturing plants akin to but lower-tech than the MS.

[IgnusDei]

not to mention the sun crusher.

[frstkor13]

I can tell we are getting star wars fever. It's ok, I am too. Something about the Star Wars universe gets my imagination going.. :tooth:

[Harmanoff]

Yeah strange isn't it? But then again, with lasercannons, lightsabers, huge starships, lightspeed, hundreds of races, the force and a semingly never ending story.. maybe not so strange after all.

PS all the star wars you ever need (http://www.subatomicstudios.com/holo.html) DS

[SvK]

Bah, the Empire can't build a Star Destroyer in seven minutes. And HW ships can take asteroids. An asteroid bigger than a Heavy Cruiser only has as many hit points as a Support Frigate.

[The5thElephant]

First of all I'd like to say that you can ask me anything...ANYTHING about Star Wars and there is 99% chance I will know answer. I can tell you spechs about any Starship/figher or anything. I also know a lot about other technologies and characters (Corran Horn has got to be anyones favorite).
I'd have to say SW would win. Mass drivers are nothing compared to laser cannons (and I'm not even talking about Turbo-Lasers). SW has shields and jedi's who would just use a mind trick to make the grand-master of the HW fleet type in SUCCESS. Someone said that SW hulls aren't prepared against Ion beams, but there are Ion cannons in SW, they just work in a different way. They overload shields and electronics when the shields go down. A Heavy-Cruiser would be disabled before it got a Mon-Calamari or Imp-Star's shields down to 50%. And think aobut this: compare Death Star Super Laser (super green goodness) to Cat Siege Cannon (ugly white glowing thing).

Just my :2cents:

Oh yeah I forgot :hwpilot: <------ looks like New Republic/Rebel pilot

[Sans_Shadow]

SW would obliterate HW. I was waiting for somebody to bring up the fact that technology is completely different, i.e ion cannons being a completely different thing in SW.

Hey, Elephant, simple question to test you - what is a TIE(?), and I mean technically.

[Dilber[TFC]]

TIE itself stands for Twin Ion Engines. It depends on the model for the full thing....

Dilber

[Sans_Shadow]

Twin Ion Engine will sufice. :)

[Tygre]

the TIE question is too easy.

You gotta remember that weapon accuracy of the Empire is agonizingly bad against the ship the good guys are in. If you put Karan S'jet into a corvette and send her up against an entire Imperial fleet, she'll come out the winner because she's the light side.

On paper, though, the Empire would win because of firepower and defense (shields).

[ceejayoz]

Originally posted by Tygre
On paper, though, the Empire would win because of firepower and defense (shields).
Not to mention the we-can-blow-up-your-star-system factor, lol... Sun Crusher, anyone? Debate finished. :p

[/downslope\]

Woudn't HW jsut build 50 SF and be invincible? lol suncrusher, why use stuff that wasn't in the movies, sorta seems like cheating. I mean thats like using all races in thw hw universe. So I could use a bentusi vessel which has more armor or as much armor as a mothership huge firepower that dosn't stop and can probably outrun anything the empire has.

[reki]

i would like to see evil darth try his hand at my evil scouts. one of my probe bombs would take out ten squadrons of those pesky little tie fighters. they would be the size of proxy sensors.

[Edric O]

Two words: Super Acolyte
Another two words: Infection beam

Seems like Cataclysm could easily own the Empire, IMO.
HW is a different thing, however. There are no mega powerful superweapons in HW to take out the imperials...

But HW could still win any ground battle. Did you see the accuracy of those Storm Troopers? LOL :D

[IgnusDei]

they were awfully accurate in Jedi knight 2

[Harmanoff]

Hmm.. hadn't thought about the beast actually. Wonder if the rather effective shields in SW would affect the infections effectivness.

[Edric O]

They might have been accurate in Jedi Knight 2, but in the movies they never even scratched the main characters! Imperial weapons just can't seem to hit any of the heroes...

And speaking of Cataclysm, I'd like to see the face on one of Darth Vader's expendable admirals when the Naggarok starts eating his Super Star Destroyer. :D

[Tygre]

Put a siege cannon as a superweapon on that moon thing in the last level of Cata and you'll have yourself something that could probably rival the death star. DS would probably just blow up a nearby planet and destroy it with the shockwave, though.

Heh, imagine if the Beast got ahold of the second death star or a sun crusher. Lucky for the universe, it didn't.

[Eiden]

I thought the Heavy Cruisers were something like 3km long, not just 1.5..... wouldn't that make them enormous compared to a star destroyer? It would also make those 4 beams enourmous "super weapons" in comparison to turbolaser pea shooters :D .

[Tygre]

Homeworld has very cartoony proportions. But yes, those ion cannons would be pretty phookin huge.

Death Star Beast infection:
"Now witness the power of this fully operatio--what?"
*bzzt*
*gurgle*

[The5thElephant]

LOL Tygre. Another problem with HW ships is their limited number of weapons. An Imperial Star Destroyer has 60 turbolaser cannons and 60 ion cannons. A few may be destroyed but there are still plenty left to keep the firepower up. On a HC if one of the ion cannon turrets is destroyed or disabled then its firepower is cut immensely. And bring in a lancer class frigate and not a single HW fighter would survive. (They can't even pull the trick Corran Horn pulled to take out a lancer frigate blocking a
Y-Wing squadron's escape route).
Also I want people to ask me questions, it's fun to flaunt my knowledge. I can even tell you the companies which make many oparts of the X-Wings.

P.S. Just saw Episode II. Yoda kicks ass. Mace Windu: 'This party's ovah.'

[SvK]

An Imperial Star Destroyer has 60 turbolaser cannons and 60 ion cannons. A few may be destroyed but there are still plenty left to keep the firepower up. On a HC if one of the ion cannon turrets is destroyed or disabled then its firepower is cut immensely.


Umm, you can't disable a cruiser's weapons without blowing the whole thing up. Even at 1HP, it has full weapons and engines.

I recommend everyone play Star Wars: New Rebellion, which just happens to be a Homeworld mod. That should settle everything.

[The5thElephant]

I'm sorry SvK but I'm talking as if the HW ships aren't in a game, but in a sorta 'realistic' sense. The only reason weapons can't be disabled in HW is because of the limitations Relic had when making it. Not because they wanted it to be that way. Any questions anyone? (Damn that reply was fast)

[Bishop Gantry]

In the manual its stated that the scaffold is 25.6 kilometers long...

the mothership is longer than the scaffold:D so Heavy Cruisers could very well be the same size as SSD's:smash:

As I understand it SSD's are 17 kilometers

Several Heavy Cruisers with Deffense field frigates makes most of the enemies firepower worth null:D

[Langy]

The Scaffold is 25.6KM? Well, then. That changes things (I had been going with 21KM). New calculations for the minimum size of the HW ships:

25.8 km - Mothership (estimation, scaffold not extracted)
5.48 km - Carrier
4.73 km - Heavy Cruiser
3.72 km - Standard Destroyer
3.48 km - Missile Destroyer
2.89 km - Resource Controller
1.68 km - Support Frigate
1.23 km - Drone Frigate
871 m - Resource Collector
312 m - Light Corvette
261 m - Attack Bomber
164 m - Scout


From these numbers I believe it is safe to say that the Kushans could simply crash their scouts through the Empire's TIE Fighters and kill them, what with them being over twenty times larger than the TIE Fighters:p

[SvK]

In the manual its stated that the scaffold is 25.6 kilometers long...

the mothership is longer than the scaffold so Heavy Cruisers could very well be the same size as SSD's
That's a great argument, but the manual is wrong. The mothership is 7km tall, and Heavy Cruisers are about the size of Star Destroyers.

[Langy]

SvK - Don't use the game's measurements. Those are just the model units. The real measurements in meters is some 3 times greater. I'd certainly believe the manual on this point, at least. It just seems, to me, that moving at only 1KM/s is not fast enough so it should be something like 3km/s, even thought that is still slow as all hell. Anyways, I'd continue going with the scaffold=25.6KM instead of 7KM.

[SvK]

Ummm, no. The movement grid says that the Mothership is 7km tall. The ship and bullet speeds say that the Mothership is 7km tall. The 3d models say that the Mothership is 7km high.:smash:

[CruiserCarrier]

One word: the Beast. He will probably infect the entire Imperial Fleet within several hours....

I wonder what would happen if the Beast infects the Sun Crusher and Death Star.... I wonder if the Beast infects Yoda!:argh:

"The Force is with me.... Feed soon....":D

The Star Destroyers only have pea shooters. The heavy cruisers will sink them in record time. THIER HEAVY GUNS ARE HALF THE SIZE OF A FRIGATE, for crying out loud. Meanwhile, the TIE strike craft will fall prey to missiles and multi-gun vettes. The Kushan can take on the Imperial fleet. The Nomad Moon can deflect the Death Star ray.

THE TAIDAN EMPIRE AND IT'S EMPEROR WILL KICK VADER AND PALPATINE'S BUTT!:D

[Langy]

SvK - Who said that one unit in a .PEO is one meter?

Besides, I still say that it should be 25.6 or so KM. That way it is bigger+cooler:D Besides, I don't trust the movement grid to say how large something is or how far away something is. I mean, who's ever heard of a RADAR that stops one kilometer away from the dish?

[Zepherian]

Remember that HW graphics are scaled.

And if any of you have the manuals I think that thew ship specs are there, including mass in tons. Try using that for reference.

I vote a draw. Rebels ally with the hw refugees, empire allies with beast (not noticing it is slowly eating them). Hans Solo shags Sjet. Everyone lives happily (except the ones that die or are eaten). Somtaaw contracted to fit siege on death star for anti fighter defense. They forget to put it on a rotating support so rebels fly around it... etc etc...

Funny thread guys.

[Kosh_The_Vorlon]

Muahaha..I'd love to see HW fighters catch X-Wings, which are capable of accelerating to near-lightspeed in quite a short amount of time..Then we've got the 200GT turbolasers, which are enough to mess up a moon.

As an aside on the Beast: SW shields vaporize organic material. The Beast is screwed to an amazing degree..Some TIE models will be susceptible to the I-Beam, and that's it. Plus, the Empire has something along the lines of 25,000 Imperator class Star Destroyers..That's not counting the SSDs, the Eclipses (mini-Super Laser anyone?), the World Devastators, and..The Sun Crusher.

Game. Set. Match.

[The5thElephant]

Thank you Kosh! But there were only 2 eclipses. The first was destroyed in a force storm. And the second was forced by R2D2 to ram the Galaxy Gun which destroyed both the GGun and the Eclipse II AND destroyed Byss (I think thats what it is called) because the GGun misfired and hit the planet. Also everyone is forgetting that the scale and sizes of ships in HW (in the actual game) are probably inaccurate because Relic wanted to make it possible to see fighters and be able to see the entire Mothership without blocking other ships. So I say that HC is a bit smaller but not much than the ImpStar. And I bet HW ion cannons are easily stopped by SW sheilds. And lets see a scout dodge a concussion missle. :D

[SvK]

:smash: :argue: :flamer: :rant:
The way HW makes sure fighters stay visible is with something called N-LIPS. That stands for Non-Linear blah blah Scaling. Basically, as a ship moves away from the camera, a multiplier in the SHP file makes the renderer expand the ship's mesh by a certain factor.

You can see this in parade formation. Zoom in on a line of Scouts and you'll see there is at least a Scout-length between each. Zoom all the way out and they seem to be almost touching.

That's all the cartoony scaling there is in Homeworld. There's no reason to doubt the size of these ships! Especially when the manual is already notorious for being wrong about ship stats and everything else in the game supports a height of 7km for the Kushan Mothership, and so on.

(The Heavy Cruiser doesn't even have N-LiPS applied. It's not like you'll lose track of it)

[Kosh_The_Vorlon]

Originally posted by The5thElephant
Thank you Kosh! But there were only 2 eclipses. The first was destroyed in a force storm. And the second was forced by R2D2 to ram the Galaxy Gun which destroyed both the GGun and the Eclipse II AND destroyed Byss (I think thats what it is called) because the GGun misfired and hit the planet. Also everyone is forgetting that the scale and sizes of ships in HW (in the actual game) are probably inaccurate because Relic wanted to make it possible to see fighters and be able to see the entire Mothership without blocking other ships. So I say that HC is a bit smaller but not much than the ImpStar. And I bet HW ion cannons are easily stopped by SW sheilds. And lets see a scout dodge a concussion missle. :D
Well, yeah, but if they get the Beast (which has been obliterated in Cataclysm), then we get all of the Super weapons that SW characters are practically tripping over..And I had forgotten about the Galaxy Gun! 100% Mass-Energy conversion missiles with the range of half the galaxy, anyone? :smash:

[The Collector]

Naggarok. Although that sucker got blasted away; I think it would do lots of damage to an imperial fleet.

Eat a SSD or other vessel, regenerate while the other vessels pound it. Infect TIE bombers and send them back in a kamikaze charge. Run away,come back and eat.

Anyhow; in A New Hope the stormtroopers used in the boarding operation are oddly skilled; they have little to no casualties breaking into the ship. So why do they perform miserably elsewhere?

[The5thElephant]

Because it's a movie and movies have to keep the main characters alive. So Stormtroopers lose all their skill when fighting heroes but when fighting other people they are better.

[Kosh_The_Vorlon]

Originally posted by The Collector
Naggarok. Although that sucker got blasted away; I think it would do lots of damage to an imperial fleet.

Eat a SSD or other vessel, regenerate while the other vessels pound it. Infect TIE bombers and send them back in a kamikaze charge. Run away,come back and eat.

Anyhow; in A New Hope the stormtroopers used in the boarding operation are oddly skilled; they have little to no casualties breaking into the ship. So why do they perform miserably elsewhere?
Yeah..They're called Character Shields :dance: