Thousands sons

[DarthFelth]

i was just thinking, but why dont they have chaplains, i mean the other chaptors killed theirs, but why would the thousand sons, and wouldnt theirs double up as psykers? i mean its not like they joined chaos cos they wanted to is

[-_Phoenix_-]

Its due to the Rubic of Ahriman AFAIK. The only Thousand Sons who survived intact were powerful psykers. All other Thousand Sons, including any Chaplains, became mindless automatons, without bodies and sealed within their power armour.

[DarthFelth]

no reason to believe that chaplains wernt powerful psykers at all, and yes i know wot the rubic of ahirman is

[Johan 72109]

Chaplains may still exist, but they won't call themselves chaplains anymore. Some of the leaders of thousand sons armies may well have once been chaplains.

[DarthFelth]

well they should still have the wargear, it would be cool to have that for them if they did a thousand sons codex, anyways, wot u guys think, wot sort of options should they have, dont really go into potints blah blah, more just from a fluff point of view, do u think the thousand sons have daemon princes apart for the primach?

[Drunken_Viking]

I suppose the Chaplains are called Sorcerers now.

[DarthFelth]

they dont have the wargear to go with it which they should...

[Athair]

They don't have the time to use the punny wargear. Sorcery demands too much of you.

[TS_ahriman]

GAH! Games Workshop logic from Althair....

[DarthFelth]

you mean wear a protective field like a chaplain, well i mean then how does a chaplain find teh time to bash people round the head then, hmm, how can a lib find the time to train, i think not, dont have time, that is such a lame arse reason :smash: :blah:

yep that really sounds like GW talking to me, how about even better, they lost their wargear in the washing machine even if they dont ahve one or one of the adepts was playing with and gave it to a lord of change for a look at the new abbadon model :nana:

[Icarus]

They wouldn't do it simply because fallen chaplains are the Word Bearers main distinguishing feature. I think its safe to assume that the Thousand Sons chaplains are now chaos sorcerors along with all their psykers.

[DarthFelth]

we are talking using logic, and tey wouldnt be fallen chaplains they would be a chaplain and pskyers, something no other legion has so far and they are fallen, indeed it would be something very different

[FabianX]

I feel the Thousand Sons were never really devotied to anything but the seeking of knowledge so they only had Chaplains to show they were devote to the Emperor. When they went traitor or really got named traitor because the Emperor was to shortsighted when Magus told him of Horus's falling to Chaos, thus they just became regular marines or whatever the aren't around anymore.

[-_Phoenix_-]

no reason to believe that chaplains wernt powerful psykers at all, and yes i know wot the rubic of ahirman is
Ya know, I answer this in the first reply and the thread continues :)

I've already established the only surviving Thousand Sons were psykers.

Re: your second post, theres every reason to believe so. When an aspirant joins a chapter they are screened for any psychic potential. If its there, and it strong enough, they go through basic training along with everyone else but then are trained as a librarian.

So no, anybody who survived the Rubic would have been trained as a Librarian, they would never have had the opportunity to become a Chaplain.

[DarthFelth]

Ya know, I answer this in the first reply and the thread continues :)

I've already established the only surviving Thousand Sons were psykers.

Re: your second post, theres every reason to believe so. When an aspirant joins a chapter they are screened for any psychic potential. If its there, and it strong enough, they go through basic training along with everyone else but then are trained as a librarian.

So no, anybody who survived the Rubic would have been trained as a Librarian, they would never have had the opportunity to become a Chaplain.

You didnt establish anything nor did you kill the thread and if you were trying and still are are sad monkey. Your reply applies to other chaptors, Alot of Thousand sons were psykers why the hell do you think apsiring champions are psykers, so wot a aspiring champion can but a chaplain cant, the logic in that, simple none, like your reply, you havent got a clue and just trying to make a exucse for Thousans sons not having one, and a lame one at that, and mate, they would of had Chaplians before the Rubic and i think in teh time of crusades they would of had plenty of time to train someone in both fields, dont you, hmm its fair enough you dotn have a clue why, then just admit it instead of pretending you know :p :smash: :smash:

[-_Phoenix_-]

Fact 1: The only Thousand Sons to survive the Rubic intact were the powerful psykers, ergo those who were librarians.

Fact 2: Those who show the psychic potential to become librarians do so. The number of humans who can both undergo all the implants and training to become a SM and have the qualities (willpower, raw ability, dedication, mental fortitude etc) to become a battlefield psyker are so few there is no other choice.

Fact 3: Chaplains are hand picked from those SMs who are the most pious, the ones who show natural battlefield leadership qualities and inspire those around them. They are picked from the rank and file, not from those already being trained in specialist areas like apoc's, librarians and techmarines.

These facts can all be gleamed from various different sources, try looking at some 2 Ed stuff.

Conclusion: There are no chaplains who are psykers because all psykers become librarians. SMs are not trained as Librarians and then also as Chaplains, it simply does not happen, not now (as in 40K) or in the times of the Horus Heresy. Therefore, no chaplains survived the Rubic.

I really, really can't make it any clearer.

[TS_ahriman]

Thousand Sons however have the luxery (?) that they have SO MANY PSYKERS. Whereas it is a rarity for other chapters to have a space marine that is also a psyker, 'sons had some basic marines with psychic capabilities. There is nothing that would prevent a thousand sons chaplain to have existed, pre or post heresy. Besides, most (if not all) of the higher-ranking 'sons were psykers, so a chaplain with psyker powers would be perfectly normal.

"The discovery of their lost master could not have come sooner for the Thousand Sons. Formed from Magnus' own gene-seed, the Legion was disposed toward psychic mutation in disproportinate numbers..."
-Index Astartes III

[DarthFelth]

i would point out space wolves combine chaplains with apoth's so wot reason to you ahve to base that thousand sons wouldnt have chaplains that were also powerful psykers, none, you actually have no reason, they woudlnt have killed them and infact it was pretty much only the basic troops who became the normal thousand sons marines, you think a aspiring champion would ahve more training than a chaplain, i think.

Fact: Thousand sons are not a codex chaptor so loyal codex marines rules do not aply
Fact: You have champions (ie vet sergeants) that did not get effected by the rubic of ahirman
Fact: even the damn lords are pskyers damnit man, just admit it you dont know why, you work for GW and trying to cover up why they forgot about this ;)


"The discovery of their lost master could not have come sooner for the Thousand Sons. Formed from Magnus' own gene-seed, the Legion was disposed toward psychic mutation in disproportinate numbers..."
-Index Astartes III

see atleast you guy know what hes talking about so he prolly dont work for GW ;)

[FabianX]

Thousand sons may still have Chaplains but I doult it even when they were a loyal legion they were always suspected of being mutants and I know they valued knowledge over anything else so I feel they only have chaplains as a show of loyaly not as a big part of the legions well being like the other legions/chapters so for when as they are not seen as a important part of the legion they would have been removed or maybe died out, I think it was printed some where that all the chaos legions turned on killed their chaplains besides the Word Bearers.

[DarthFelth]

Thousand sons may still have Chaplains but I doult it even when they were a loyal legion they were always suspected of being mutants and I know they valued knowledge over anything else so I feel they only have chaplains as a show of loyaly not as a big part of the legions well being like the other legions/chapters so for when as they are not seen as a important part of the legion they would have been removed or maybe died out, I think it was printed some where that all the chaos legions turned on killed their chaplains besides the Word Bearers.

They were killed in other legions because they choose the turn on the emperor, the thousand sons were turned on by the emperor, they tried to warn the emperor of the traitor Horus. I would bet that chaplains in the thousand sons would have a different role, they prolly had a duel role.

Anyways teh main difference why other legions dont have chaplains is due to simple fact they stayed loyal to emperor and were killed by their brothers maybe even some escaped like some of the few death guard that tried to warn the emperor. I really doubt the thousand sons were murdered by their brothers, why would they stay loyal to the man they tried to warn, the man they loved that sent teh space wolves loyal to wipe them out cos he couldnt face the truth that his most loved and trusted son was a back stabbing fecker.

Why throw away the warger that he gave to protect them, they didnt throw away their power armour, their bolters, power swords hmm, it wouldnt make sense.

[FabianX]

Taken from the Beliefs section under Thousand Sons in Index Astartes III

"....Before the Heresy, the Thousand Sons were publicly dogmatic, swearing oaths of loyalty and singing the Imperial hymns. They fought for the expansion of the Emperor's realm with diligence, but as their oath-breaking illustrated, their final loyalty rested not with the Emperor, but with their Primarch...."

That is why I thing the chaplains were just killed or maybe put away there wargear as it only showed there loyalty to the Emperor. As they were their only for show to begin with. The Thousand Sons were casted out just before the HH started they had no reason to keep the chaplains around.

"...When Magnus and his Thousand Sons were seen again, it was above Istvaan V, fighting alongside Horus...."

And I think alot of the legions killed there Chaplains was a show of loyalty to there new masters was well as to show that they no longer were willing to follow Emperor.

[DarthFelth]

the reason they choose to turn to chaos, the sons didnt, you think a chaplain is gona stay loyal to the emperor when he has ordered the death of him and all his brothers just for trying to understand chaos so they could better fight it, please that dosnt make sense, the other killed their chaplains because they wanted to kill the emperor and put Horus in his place, the Thousand sons id say just wanted vengence, and why would they put away their wargeat yet still wear the armour given to them by the emperor, why wouldnt they throw that away as well?


"...When Magnus and his Thousand Sons were seen again, it was above Istvaan V, fighting alongside Horus...."

And I think alot of the legions killed there Chaplains was a show of loyalty to there new masters was well as to show that they no longer were willing to follow Emperor.

then why didnt the world bearers kill theirs if that was the case wouldnt that then show they wernt loyal to horus ;)

[FabianX]

Maybe not but then again how loyal were they in the first place alot of the chaplains from the other legions were keen to follow Horus in the first place he was the Emperor's Champain and best friend as well as the Warmaster why not follow him, I am not saying they throw the armor away ether as it is just painted black that can be repainted and the helmet replaced the weapons replaced any of those although it was never said they(Thousand Sons) killed there chaplains it was never said that the didn't ether I am not trying to debunk just share what I think is what happened same as what you are doing.

I showed why I think Thousand Sons were just showing loyalty only in public not that they meant it so for them to have any chaplains still would be wierd since they are only loyal to Mangus not Tzeentch so the need to keep a show piece would be kinda dumb from my point of view.

::edited added::

On the Word Bearers well they were the first to act like the Emperor was a God and when he found out the told them to stop it, so they turned to worshipping Chaos(undivided to boot), I would also like to point out that only the newer chapters worship the Emperor like a god most of the first founding view him only as a great man and father of there Primarchs but still only view him as a man.

From Index Astartes I on the beliefs of the Dark Angels
"The Dark Angels Chapter gaves praise to the Emperor of Mankind but, much to the chagrin of the Ecclesiarchy, do not revere him as a god. Like most First Founding Chapters, the Dark Angels venerate their Primarch as much as they do the Emperor, who they worship as the founder of the Imperium and as their creator. To the Dark Angels the Emperor is a man, not a god...."

[DarthFelth]

wot i was saying if they didnt kill them and as you said about disguarding the wargear of a chaplain why wouldnt they do the same with their armour then, their bolters etc, that was the point i was making, i was also making the point why would they kill them t show they were loyal to horus as the world bearers didnt need to thuswhy would they need to. And as far as i knew all marines looked at the emperor as a man not a god which why they dont get on with battle sisters as they see him as a god ;) (here im just saying i thought all legions (they wernt chaptors firs founding legions)

Im just saying why i dont agree with your ideas behind the chaplains cos the way see it i cant actually think of a reason they would kill them nor can i see a reason they would become zombies like teh rest of the legion.

[FabianX]

Your right they were legions be so none of the chaos legions break up into Chapters thus when GW writes First founding chapters they mean just that the first Chapters and alot of the second founding look at there Primarch as an equal to the Emperor as well but not as much so as the Firsts who have the honor of a direct line and tradition that can be drawn back to the start of the Imperium. Any after that view the Emperor as a god since its the Adeptus Terra who has the power to create a chapter and the will of the Adeptus is no more then the will of the Emperor is that is what is believed by the masses.

I think I remember a good short story from an Inferno I will look it up later but is on the Word Bearers I will re-read and post on it it might show us some insight on how they worship.

[DarthFelth]

nice way to tip toe around the points i made, but that wasnt the point i was making, was it ;)

[Johan 72109]

The Word Bearers needed a stable religion after they abandoned the Emperor. They wanted to have a devotion to something more than anything else. They also needed a god they could show ceremony for. They chose Chaos. The Dark Apostles kept their weapons and defiled them so they could be the new priests for their legion.
The Thousand Suns on the other hand had the sorcerers as their priests. The only chaplains that would have survived the Rubric of Ahriman would have been sorcerers, or at least had psychic talent. They would have discarded their Crozius Arcanums and Rosarius' etc, because they were marks of the Emperor specifically, religious relics. Defiling the weapons wouldn't have been an option, because, as stated, their religious leaders were now the sorcerers, so there was absolutely no need to have chaplains.
Bolters and power armour were not discarded because, although they were weapons of the Emperor, it was only because of the Imperial Eagle stuck on them. That could be destroyed, whereas a Crozius Arcanum is a symbol of the Emperor in and of itself.
On another point, after a little while, the Thousand Sons wouldn't have been able to lose their weapons and armour even if they wanted too, as they were fused onto them.

[DarthFelth]

So was every other wargear item they carried, id they discarded their Crozius Arcanum and didnt deface it, it was still a wapon to use againt the emperor and damn good one at that. They didnt get their armour fused together till after the heresy :P

*things Johan is stretching*

:p

[Johan 72109]

It's still a weapon, but one that is a symbol of the Emperor. A boltgun has a symbol ON it that can be removed, a Crozius Arcanum IS a symbol that must be defaced or destroyed. It's like a monodominant Inquisitor, (not a radical inquisitor) using a daemonhost. It just wouldn't happen.
About the armour being fused, point taken.

[TS_ahriman]

Thousand Sons were more analytical than other legions, and would have viewed their succession from the emperor in a more logical manner. Also, it wasn't like they embraced the chaos gods, but instead were forced into that position...so destroying a peice/pieces of wargear would not be 'efficient'. Defacing it? OK, not a problem, but I doubt from a fluff standpoint that they would get rid of chaplain wargear.

[DarthFelth]

:wow: someone sees what im getting at :beer:

[FabianX]

....I am not saying they throw the armor away ether as it is just painted black that can be repainted and the helmet replaced the weapons replaced any of those although it was never said they(Thousand Sons) killed there chaplains it was never said that the didn't ether I am not trying to debunk just share what I think is what happened same as what you are doing.

I got what you were saying all along but I doult they would bother to still use a Crozius Arcanums when they could just pick up a powersword, and the Rosarius to my knowledge came into being only after the HH to show that the Emperor protects his flock.

From reading the inferno 12 Snares and Delusions the Word Bearers are the only ones to hold their Chaplains as something as an important thing although the Thousand Sons may not have killed them they don't need them ether thus armor would be redone and Crozius Arcanums tossed asided bolters still have a use so they would be kept. For the World Eaters Chaplains given up to the skull throne even though they were behind there Primarch which most were they all know Angron defided the Emperor be continueing to implant the psycho chips(not any real name for them given).
Black legion might have offered their Chaplains up as forgiveness for failing them after the HH. Deathguard would have kept them Grandfather Nurgle is above out right killing thus any Crozius Arcanums would be replaced by plague knifes or swords. Alpha Legion well I not to sure what they would do with a Chaplain, as Chaplain are to inspier and are a bit more showy then a covert legion would want.

Anyhow here is how I came to why I think this from inferno 12.
"...His hand squeezed the haft of his crozius and the weapon's daemon-head hissed and cursed and spat its displeasure. Only during the rituals would the thing keep quiet. De Haan twisted it around and held it at a more dignified angle. It was a symbol of his office, a chaplaincy in the only Traitor Legion to remember and revere teh importance of Chaplains. It did not do to show it disrespect..."

Anyways great debate :bandit: haven't had to think this hard for a long time.

[Johan 72109]

Chaplains, as said, are there for religious purposes. A Crozius is more a ceromonial, rather than a militery weapon, (though it packs a punch, it sees more action in religious ceremonies.)
Again, as said, the Thousand Suns have sorcerers for their religious purposes. They have no need for Chaplains. Crozius Arcanums however... I've been thinking about that one... I suppose if they defiled them, they might well use them, just as weapons with no religious significance. However, they would be considered mere weapons, and wouldn't be used till they were defiled.

[DarthFelth]

Chaplains, as said, are there for religious purposes. A Crozius is more a ceromonial, rather than a militery weapon, (though it packs a punch, it sees more action in religious ceremonies.)
Again, as said, the Thousand Suns have sorcerers for their religious purposes. They have no need for Chaplains. Crozius Arcanums however... I've been thinking about that one... I suppose if they defiled them, they might well use them, just as weapons with no religious significance. However, they would be considered mere weapons, and wouldn't be used till they were defiled.

You ahve no reasdn to think this at all, and if they defiled them, used them to strike down the very man who betrayed them, if i was a chaplain in the thousand sons id wanna smack the emperors protection right in his....

as for no chaplains before the HH, ohh i see, that explains the world bearers then, all these reasons everyone gives would apply to a legion that joined horus of their own free will, the thousand sons didnt, thats the key difference.

[DarthFelth]

i didnt say world eaters did, maybe i should be careful when trying to make a point to some people, i dont ike seeing the confused

[Athair]

Sorry about that. You posted before I could do a read through (I read World Eaters in Fabians thread). Ooops :argh:

[TS_ahriman]

I think that their religion is simple enough that chaplains wouldn't be needed to explain the finer points of Khornate thinking. :stick:

Phew, I was tired of having to think about all that thousand sons stuff...khorne makes any discussion simple. :bandit:

[DarthFelth]

now now the finer points of khornate thinking are much more than that, allow me to draw a cartoon for you :D

:smash: :fight: :fight: :banghead: :evilnod: :boohoo: :wow: :matrix: :sam: :fencing: :muffy: :ninja: :omg: :bow2: :smash:

I hope that clears up the need for a chaplain ;)

[Coey]

I would of thought this would be the Khornate way of thinking

:smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :bandit: :smash: :smash:

[FabianX]

Nah, more simple more like this :Slap: , but add a chainaxe to the slapping one.

[DarthFelth]

now now the finer points of khornate thinking are much more than that, allow me to draw a cartoon for you :D

:smash: :fight: :fight: :banghead: :evilnod: :boohoo: :wow: :matrix: :sam: :fencing: :muffy: :ninja: :omg: :bow2: :smash:

I hope that clears up the need for a chaplain ;)


NO NO NO!!!! its like this :p your all so wrong, get over it :p well maybe abit of :vikingb: :num: :cranky: :damnu: :notlisten

[Johan 72109]

You ahve no reasdn to think this at all, and if they defiled them, used them to strike down the very man who betrayed them, if i was a chaplain in the thousand sons id wanna smack the emperors protection right in his....

as for no chaplains before the HH, ohh i see, that explains the world bearers then, all these reasons everyone gives would apply to a legion that joined horus of their own free will, the thousand sons didnt, thats the key difference.

No reason to think what at all? Basically, Thousand Suns would not use chaplains. What chaplains they had before the HH will now be sorcerers. They might use Crozius Arcanums, but they would be defiled and would no longer have religious significance.
Yes, the Thousand Suns didn't join Horus out of choice, but they still wouldn't use chaplains. As stated, their sorcerers are now their equivalent of chaplains, (i.e, religious leaders)
But glad the conversation is moving onto Khorne... much simpler... just yell BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD loud enough and you're dandy...

[DarthFelth]

erm, dude, they would ahve always been that way, sorecers and reglious leaders, they would not just change everything because of teh emperor, the chaplain may ahve changed role but he would still be part of the legion, he has no reason to throw away his weapons, which is the point i was making which you seemed to miss, yea he would be more like the world bearers on, THAT WAS THE POINT I WAS MAKING ;) The only reason the other legions dont have chaplains was because they killed them.

Be glad, it isnt moving onto the khorne at all, it has nothing to do with this topic, read the title if you are confused.

[Johan 72109]

The chaplain was always the religous leader in any chapter before the HH, including the Thousand Sons, hence the name 'chaplain', as appose to, 'dude carrying Crozius Arcanum.'
The point you made about no reason to throw away weapons is one I agree with, which you seemed to miss, but they would defile the Crozius Arcanum before using it.
Also, any Chaplains who survived the Rubric of Ahriman would be Sorcerers, thus nothing like Word Bearers chaplains.

[DarthFelth]

Also, any Chaplains who survived the Rubric of Ahriman would be Sorcerers, thus nothing like Word Bearers chaplains.

They would always of been Sorcerers, that isnt a change apart for being more powerful ;)

[Athair]

They are probably just better known as Sorcerers. I don't think that they brag about it alot.

If you just want to use it in an army, go ahead. They have the same rules as power weapons, so use it as that.

[Evan_gelion]

It's worth pointing out an important part of this that hurt the idea of Thousand Suns wandering around with Chaplains. Keep in mind, OF the Chaos legions, the Thousand Suns were the LEAST willing to turn to Chaos. In their case--there was no choice. The Emperor would not allow the practice of Sorcery and so he destroyed their homeworld, leaving them furious and hungering for revenge. But Thousand Suns do NOT plot revenge by waving their treachery in front of the Emperor's face. Think Tzteentch--a manipulative and scheming god... would not want to draw extra ire from the Emperor for the blasmpheous sorcerors waving around the Emperor's symbols and going "Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah!" It is possible that they are not using any of the Emperor's symbol out of spite--because they have literally forsaken him due to him forsaking them. Furthermore, some Thousand Suns aren't even wholly DEVOTED to Tzteentch (Ahriman springs to mine), and thus wouldn't really subscribe to the whole index-thumping battle Chaplain...

Last but not least, Chaplains are first and foremost there to spiritually guide troops. THAT'S what you need to grasp. Though they are Crozius swingin' Rosarius wearin' monsters in combat, there first, and their foremost role was to provide guidance for the fellow brothers when combat isn't happening. (Grey Knight, by Ben Counter, illustrates this through the use of a Grey Knight Chaplain guiding a Justicar through the story, as it were). The Word Bearers need them because they are still VERY dedicated to Chaos--but in a spiritual way. With it's walking suits of armor, Sorcery, and knowledge of secrets, Thousand Sons are not prone to things like "Faith". Ergo, A Chaplain is unlikely.

Just a thought. The Thousand Sun's are the least petty of the Chaos chapter's, it feels like to me, so having cursed chaplains running around as a mockery seems... I dunno, beneath them.

[TS_ahriman]

Think Tzteentch--a manipulative and scheming god... would not want to draw extra ire from the Emperor for the blasmpheous sorcerors waving around the Emperor's symbols and going "Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah!"

I found that whole image pretty amusing.


So...I guess if a crozius arcanum (or other such wargear) were to be used, it would instead by stripped to its component parts and utilised for pure function?

Also, I'm curious what the consensus is 'round here. Is it that thousand sons do/did have chaplains, but that they are now essentially sorcerors with no ties to their previous line of work?

[Evan_gelion]

Well, to answer the questions. A). They probably would have little use for the Crozius and would instead just enchant blades with sorcery and do colorful things, and B). It's important to point out another bit, in that only Sorceror's are still alive in the Thousand Sons--everyone else, Chaplains, Sargents, troops, anyone who didn't dabble in Sorcery is now a walking suit of armor. I sincerely doubt that a Chaplain would ever dabble in Sorcery, so that's worth pointing out.

[TS_ahriman]

I would point out however that it would be entirely possible for TS chaplains to do more than just dabble in sorcery. This probably came AFTER their defeat at Prospero, but before the casting of the rhubric. However, to be saved from the debilitating effects of the rhubric, you needed psychic abilities (this doesn't mean that you had to practice sorcery), and there's nothing that would go against having a chaplain with psychic abilities.

[Evan_gelion]

Well, there kind of is. All Psykers, particularly SMs, are indoctrined as Librarians early once it's found out-the Thousand Sun, a sorcery army, would see it as a total waste for a Sorceror to not work on finding power so he could keep up the troops morale, ya know--besides, they're a bunch of lifeless shells, who the hell does he need to guide?

Also, I *might* be wrong, but all Sorcerors are Psykers, as in 40K it's pretty much the same thing.

[TS_ahriman]

There were so many psykers in the pre-heresy 'sons that to make them all librarians would have been impractical. Higher ranking marines in the Thousand Sons were usually psykers, and a chaplain is certainly high ranking.

'Sons were lifeless shells after the rhubric of ahriman, which was cast after the horus heresy. Before the heresy, chaplains would certainly be present. After the rhubric, you're absolutely correct. There's no one to guide, so he becomes just another sorceror.

All sorcerors are psykers. Not all psykers are sorcerors.

[Evan_gelion]

Well you're a poo-poo head. Okay, I can't necessarily argue with that (Though I don't remember reading that there were a lot of Psykers post heresy--I'll take your word for it).

Still not too keen on the idea, but hey, if you think it'll work, go with it. Something about it just feels off to me though, as a personal opinion.

[TS_ahriman]

:devil: Trust me. :devil: There were a disproportionate number of psykers in the original Thousand Sons legion, because they were taken from Magnus' Gene seed. Magnus was a powerful psyker, and it effected his legion accordingly.

I'll agree with you that it feels off. Pretty sure no one has summed up Thousand Sons chaplains into an utterly fluffy and logical explanation....but that can be expected with the limited fluff we're provided.

[-_Phoenix_-]

There were so many psykers in the pre-heresy 'sons that to make them all librarians would have been impractical.
Whilst I know Thousand Sons had more psykers then other chapters, I don't think they we're as common as you think. How many more librarian capable psykers do you think 1000 sons had compared to other legions ?

Twice as many ? 3 ? 4 ? 5 ?! I'd always understood it was around 2 or 3 times as many as other legions. A lot, but you'd still train them as Librarians, its not as if every other SM was a battle level psyker as you seem to indicate. Unless somewhere theres an official figure floating arouind on the number of psykers in 1000 sons.

[Johan 72109]

Thank you Evan gelion, you put things better than I could have done.

[DarthFelth]

if it was anouther legion Johan, then it would, if they were a codex chaptor, it would, but they ant, they are the thousand sons, they arnt a codex legion, infact they they would following their own setup, if you looked at wolf priests compared to a codex chaptor wouldnt that feel off, no other legion/chaptor have a chaplain thats alod a medic. How many marine chaptors or legions have vet sergeants that or psykers, how many have every character as a psyker, how many have commmand squads that are or psykers, how many have elite units that are all psykers?

they dont have as many psykers as you think, dosnt the unit options say it all. I could see the thousand sons chaplains battering loyal marines to death with the weapons that were given to protect the imperium with. They may not be Chaplains in the same way as a loyal legion, but then again they arnt a loyal legion anymore ;)

[FabianX]

Codex wasn't even around till after the HH anyhow so to compare the Thousand Sons to a codex isn't a good way of going about this.

From Index Astartes I Codex Astartes
"...One of their(High Lords of Terra) most important accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium's armed forces. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch of the Ultramarine Legion of Space Marines, Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the Fleet and the Space Marines. Of all his works the most influential is the Codex Astartes, the great prescriptive tome that lays down the basic organisational and tactical rules for the Space Marines..."

[TS_ahriman]

I think the point he was trying to make was that, since they aren't based around the codex, trying to classify all SM psykers as librarians and such for the 'sons isn't accurate.

[DarthFelth]

that was the point i was making

[FabianX]

From Index Astartes III
"...The fifteenth Legion (Thousand Sons) had suffered terribly from the spontaneous, uncontrolled manifestation of psychics amongst their ranks, and those who survived to receive training became amongst the most powerful Libararians of the Epoch. Many more did not..."

They leave a lot of room with "Many more did not" meaning maybe they didn't train as a Librarian or maybe that they failed in surviving the training.

[DarthFelth]

can you point out the bit that refers to chaplains please? Can answer the question why in 40k they are the army with the most amount units that can are psykers, eldar have i believe, thousand sons have 2 (3 if you class chosen terminators as anouther) this was before the rubic of ahriman ;)

What you have pointed out just explains why they were on the smallest legions ;) and dosnt answer the question about thousand sons Chaplains which would prolly be a duel role of a lib and chaplain much like the space wolfs wolf priest is a chaplain/apoth.

And again how man armies do you know were every single character has to a psyker, every champion, vet sergeant is a psyker and has to be, dosnt that just explain how many psykers they have and give you a idea of how many they had, i mean they had even more just not on the same level as the stronger psykers of other chaptors prolly more like warlocks ;)

[Coey]

There wll be chaplains left, but they will be mindless automatons, only the most powerfull of the psykers survived the Rubric, which were probably the Librarians.

[DarthFelth]

the aspiring champions are not mindless, what makes you think a chaplain, a high ranking member of teh chaptor would be a weak psyker, what basis do you make that on, mine would be from actually reading the chaos codex and looking at the rules (IE veteran squads or chosen are not mindless drones)

[Coey]

Maybe the Chaplains are very crap pyskers? Who knows?

And if there were Chaplains in the TS why aren't there any models for them?

[DarthFelth]

thats the whole point in the debate, why isnt their models :p you know GW didnt make alot of the models, they dont have models for the world bearer chaplain, and why would the chaplain be crappy, the veteran marines arnt, high rankers would be good psykers (in general, not all) i dont think, ohh he can do a few tricks, right off you go, you can be a chaplain do you ;)

I think you missed the point in the debate coey :Slap: :Slap: :Slap: :Slap: :Slap: :Slap:

[Johan 72109]

Before the HH, the Thousand Suns may well have had chaplains who were also psykers. But think about it this way. A chaplain was designed for worship of the Emperor. The Word Bearers changed the focus of their chaplains to worship Chaos, but a chaplain is a religious bloke more than a fighter.
Now, however, the Thousand Sons use the sorcerers as their priesthood. There may be ex-chaplains who are now sorcerers, but they will not be known as chaplains anymore. They will be known as sorcerers.
If they were still called chaplains, then that would have to mean they were still being used as religious leaders. That's what the word, 'chaplain' means, after all. The Thousand Sons are more for worship in an intellectual kind of way than in a 'chaplain' kind of way if you see what I mean. Thus it follows that there will no longer be any chaplains. They may still exist, but only as sorcerers.

[DarthFelth]

yes i know wot a chaplain is in real terms, how can you say that they just went, no, we ant chaplains, sorry, nah, done, they would always have been sorcerers, so that wouldnt change, thats the point you are missing, that isnt a change, as for worship, hmm how about the chaos god Tzeentch, i mean everyone in the army bears the mark of tzeentch, yes their worship may be very different as to when they worshipped the emperor, for starts they are actually worshipping a god not a man, but because they are longer imperial, no longer loyal, do not follow the codex astrates (which someone brought up that effects everything) does not mean they wouldnt have a chaplains to lead in the worship, remember not all thousands joined teh cabel of ahriman, not all marines toned to dust and had their souls trapped in their armour, some actually increased in psyhic power, and just because they off the above, just becasue a chaplain become a more powerful psykic dosnt mean they are no longer needed.

Again i say, the chaplains would of allway been psykers, and if you worship a god, good or evil, not matter how you do you tend to have a leader in the worship, a priest or a chaplain, and wot is a chaplain, a priest with a gun (in 40k, cause im no to sure if priest in the real army or chaplains actually run rounf with guns, i guess it would depend on the faith)

[Johan 72109]

As said, they use sorcerers as their religious leaders, not chaplains

[DarthFelth]

It isnt as you said cos if you wanna be picky they dont have have captains as they have sorecers, so then that must mean they dont have a chaos lord then, ahh i see, ohh hang on, i dont think you got it, you see he would be a chaplain that is a psyker, that isnt what you said, and the lord/captain would be a captain that is also a psyker, that isnt what you said at all ;)

[Lion El'Jonson]

all thousand sons are deeply posesed by tzench [chaos god of magic & change]. they are just soles, no bodies at all. and many of theyr characters [most infact] got here they are because they are stronger pshykers.

The thousand sons see Psykers as their leaders and respect them and hold them in aw as much as a normal [imperial] space marine would hold the his chapter master/force comander. It is like w/ the orks, the bigger an ork is, the higher up the ladder it goes; so the stronger the psyker, the higher up the chaos ranks he goes [well his sole in power armour anyway]

[Johan 72109]

The Chaos Lords for Tzeentchites are psykers. I said that chaplains are not their religious leaders many, many, times. Likewise, I said that Sorcerers are their religious leaders many, many times

[DarthFelth]

and your wrong, their chaplains would be the religious leaders which are also psykers like i said many many many many many times

[Evan_gelion]

I still think the most important thing is that Thousand Suns are not the most PIOUS of the Chaos Space Marine chapters. They are thoughtful, they desire knowledge and power and change--faith in anything (particularly the Emperor) is viewed what got them into this mess. A good Thousand Sun should never place his faith in anyone--especially a Chaplain, because that Chaplain may be scheming to his own end--and for Tzteentch, personal advancement is usually the all consuming goal. So there's that to consider. It's a coven style Chapter, not a church-y one, and ergo Chaplains kind of out place. I think that's what those opposed to the idea are getting at.

[Lion El'Jonson]

ya your rite, exept that the thousand sone are not a chapter!

tey are an entire legion [equiv. of several chapters B4 the second founding splut them up] which makes the hole thing that much esier to explain. Pre HH legions were bound by few rules [no limits on numbers of 1 example] and this meant that basicly a legion was a law unto it's own, flowing only the emperor and their primarchs. But anyway, not al legions had the same way of carying out the wrath of the emperor. some taught throug preaching, some taught through example, ect. ect. and each legion developed it's own way of doing things untill Gulman came along and gave the remainder of them rules after the HH so they could never be powerfull enough to repeat the trechery of the HH again.

[DarthFelth]

I still think the most important thing is that Thousand Suns are not the most PIOUS of the Chaos Space Marine chapters. They are thoughtful, they desire knowledge and power and change--faith in anything (particularly the Emperor) is viewed what got them into this mess. A good Thousand Sun should never place his faith in anyone--especially a Chaplain, because that Chaplain may be scheming to his own end--and for Tzteentch, personal advancement is usually the all consuming goal. So there's that to consider. It's a coven style Chapter, not a church-y one, and ergo Chaplains kind of out place. I think that's what those opposed to the idea are getting at.

They did before, why stop, i mean i dont think they would wanna put the chaplain outta a job, wot is he gona do with his time, no preaching, wether it be in teh name of Tzeentch and besides the only chaos god who dosnt really ahve any preaching is khorne, and thats cos you worship him by ripping somone a new butt hole

[Athair]

Why continue? They have good equipment? They get rid of it and get just as good stuff that doesn't leave the impression "We love the Imperium!". They provide moral? How much moral do automatons need? There really doesn't seem to be much reason to stay Chaplains. Might as well donate that extra time to increasing your already powerfull psychic skills. :D

[chocolate]

Exactly. Anybody who was anybody in the Thousand Sons was a psyker. Chaplains put on a show for the benefit of the Emperor. They were psykers, and when they joined Tzeentch there was no reason for them to keep the rozarius, or any other holy weapon or symbol. They show allegiance to the Emperor, and basic service to them. They are renegades, using them would go against their code, especially since they hate the Emperor almost as much as Angron (destruction of Prospero).

[DarthFelth]

the same could be said their was no reason for them to keep weapons of the imperium, as i said, if i was a chaplain id enjoy shoving his weapons up his arse shouting "how you like the divine protection now"

I dont see a reason to throw them away, and not all thousand sons are mindless drones and actually i dont think they are completely mindless anyways

[Johan 72109]

I'm really sorry Darthfelth and mean no offence at all, but d'you think you could put in full stops in your posts? I find it hard enough to think as it is, and sometimes I have to reread a post of yours three or four times to understand it. If you could that'd be fantastic, but if not then it's fine.
Anyway, onto the debate... A Thousand Son chaplain might defile his Crozius and use it, the irony might even appeal to him, but he would no longer go by the name of chaplain but sorcerer. And as a sorcerer, he would do what little religious work is needed by the Thousand Sons, as the sorcerers are essentially the priests (as much as automatons need priests.) But he would no longer be a chaplain. The word chaplain is related to very ceremonial things, great sermons, hours of prayer to the particular god you worship. For the Thousand Sons, it's nothing like that. They read books of power, they look up to the most powerful psykers among them, but they essentially are not uber-religious.

[-_Phoenix_-]

Darth, you've now got 6 pages of reasons why the thousand sons don't have chaplains and you've pretty much just said "Meh" to each of them. Don't know what else to say really.

[Athair]

To them 'Sorceror' is a much more respectfull term than 'Chaplain'. It's just their attitude.

[DarthFelth]

I'm really sorry Darthfelth and mean no offence at all, but d'you think you could put in full stops in your posts? I find it hard enough to think as it is, and sometimes I have to reread a post of yours three or four times to understand it. If you could that'd be fantastic, but if not then it's fine.
Anyway, onto the debate... A Thousand Son chaplain might defile his Crozius and use it, the irony might even appeal to him, but he would no longer go by the name of chaplain but sorcerer. And as a sorcerer, he would do what little religious work is needed by the Thousand Sons, as the sorcerers are essentially the priests (as much as automatons need priests.) But he would no longer be a chaplain. The word chaplain is related to very ceremonial things, great sermons, hours of prayer to the particular god you worship. For the Thousand Sons, it's nothing like that. They read books of power, they look up to the most powerful psykers among them, but they essentially are not uber-religious.

As you put it like that no i can put fullstops in my post anymore, right i will say this again, the sorceres arnt the priest or chaplains, the chaplains would also be sorecers like any high ranking member of the legion

[Athair]

The TS could always consider the term 'Chaplain' insulting :jk: :D

[DarthFelth]

thats not the point :p

[chocolate]

Uggh, they wouldn't use the crozarius. End of story. To even wield it against them is an insult. The Thousand Sons hate the Emperor even more then most of the other legions, since he was the one who gave the order to torch Prospero.

[DarthFelth]

actually i fully agree that they hate them more than other legions, but what you ant seeing is that everything they have was given to them by emperor and that when you consider the way the imperium is and how messed up it is that would be just a likly to throw away a bolt gun for the same reason as a chaplains wargear

[Evan_gelion]

actually i fully agree that they hate them more than other legions, but what you ant seeing is that everything they have was given to them by emperor and that when you consider the way the imperium is and how messed up it is that would be just a likly to throw away a bolt gun for the same reason as a chaplains wargear

Here's some more thereotical reasons.

A). Lost them on Prospero.

B). The ability to enchant their own weapons (hence most Champions carrying rune-like blades) with Sorcery makes running around with a Crozius a bit bland. Hell, why rely on something as feeble as technology when you can rely on the powers of your own mind instead?

C).Thousand Suns are automatons, except the Champions, which are Sorcerors. All of them. End of story. The only one's who literally are not mindless automatons are the Sorcerors, as well as the 'Chosen' (the one's who occasionally wear Termie armor and the like). No others. Nobody needs Morale, each Sorceror is highly independent (he'd have to be to be a sorceror--unless you want to create a bad Harry-Potter parody for Tzeentchian Thousand Suns), seek power in the universe around them (faith gets them nowhere). And most importantly--FORSAKE THE EMPEROR AS A CORPSE! To wield a weapon supposedly blessed by him (despite the technology, remember a Crozius is blessed weapon of the Emperor) would be an affront to their kin of Prospero.

They can make their own, they have no need of it, it's an insult, and a Chaplain serves no purpose. That... about covers it. At this point, if you really want to insist they'd run around with a Crozius--that's fine. Just... most people (at least most around here) would just disagree with you and think it's a little silly.

Besides, NO other Chapter, with the exception of the Word Bearers, wield a Crozius--none of them. Not a single one. Why take that away from the poor, flavorless Word Bearers anyhow? Heh.

[DarthFelth]

No

[Evan_gelion]

You know.. quoting an entire post that is literally right above yours. But... I digress. It's nice for you to respond to my points by just saying "no". Hey, it's my opinion, never said you had to take it--you haven't convinced me at all though (seems like most others either) so, I guess you can just do what you want to do and I'll just think it's ridiclious, that's all.

[DarthFelth]

Here's some more thereotical reasons.

A). Lost them on Prospero.

B). The ability to enchant their own weapons (hence most Champions carrying rune-like blades) with Sorcery makes running around with a Crozius a bit bland. Hell, why rely on something as feeble as technology when you can rely on the powers of your own mind instead?

C).Thousand Suns are automatons, except the Champions, which are Sorcerors. All of them. End of story. The only one's who literally are not mindless automatons are the Sorcerors, as well as the 'Chosen' (the one's who occasionally wear Termie armor and the like). No others. Nobody needs Morale, each Sorceror is highly independent (he'd have to be to be a sorceror--unless you want to create a bad Harry-Potter parody for Tzeentchian Thousand Suns), seek power in the universe around them (faith gets them nowhere). And most importantly--FORSAKE THE EMPEROR AS A CORPSE! To wield a weapon supposedly blessed by him (despite the technology, remember a Crozius is blessed weapon of the Emperor) would be an affront to their kin of Prospero.

They can make their own, they have no need of it, it's an insult, and a Chaplain serves no purpose. That... about covers it. At this point, if you really want to insist they'd run around with a Crozius--that's fine. Just... most people (at least most around here) would just disagree with you and think it's a little silly.

Besides, NO other Chapter, with the exception of the Word Bearers, wield a Crozius--none of them. Not a single one. Why take that away from the poor, flavorless Word Bearers anyhow? Heh.

No other chatptor, funny they are legions, no other legions wield Croziox cao all the others ones ones killed their Chaplains which has already beem said, the THousand sons turned for a different reason. Thousans sons arnt completely mindless, just pretty much so :P

No it wouldnt be a offenece to wield one or you could say the same about wearing power armour or using a bolter. You could say why didnt they lose these other weapons on Prospero, i love this, none of you consider the fact anything you say works both ways, it great and way to easy to keep this going

[Evan_gelion]

Okay. To specifically state why they would use a Bolter and Power Armour and NOt the Crozius.. Because the Bolter, and Power armour.. ARE NOT THE MOST HOLY SYMBOL VENERATING THE EMPEROR! That's what I'd think a bit off hand. A hand gun, and a Holy symbol of a two headed eagle which is supposed to be the divine hand of the Emperor is a little different. In the case of Bolter's and Power armour, it's simply that--armor. It could even be said that the armor and wepaons come from their primarch--someone they don't mind, and the Crozius represents a certain God-Emperor they hate. That is literally the last I'm going to say on this--saying "If they don't use the Crozius, they shouldn't use bolters!" is oversimplfying. The Crozius is an extreme because it's a religious artifact venerating Mr. God Emperor. It's a big golden stick with two eagles--a Bolter's a gun. Ergo, no Crozius. Crozius equal bad. Power Armour=hey, just a suit of armor. Bolter= Gun. Crozius= Weapon imbibed with the power of the Emperor (that bit is reprsented by it's mechanism,s but that's how they TELL people how it works.) Icky. Bad.

And... please, for the love of god, stop quoting my whole post whan it's the post before yours. It's really unnecessary.

[DarthFelth]

I never said they were, but you could say that they wouldnt want to use stuff given to them to fight in his name ;)

[Athair]

I've got a good reason why they don't abandon their power armor! Maybe...um...because....um....OVER HALF THEIR LEGION IS TRAPPED IN THEIR POWER ARMOR! The automatons probbably can't even weild anything more complex, and anyone can buy a bolter off of the Chaotic Black Market :jk: .
And you better hope that Peer doesn't find you. Quoting a post right above yours is against Relic Policy.

[DarthFelth]

erm, yeah remind me when they got trapped in the armour and then remind me when they got turned on by the emperor, cos they wernt trapped in their armour till after the seige of teh emperors palace ;)

[peer]

The Internet Police are currently en route to DarthFelth's house to detain him for ridiculous abuse of the quote button.





(stop it)

[Athair]

Crozius thingy=Power Weapon. Same abilities. Different options. You can go to the local Chaotic Smith and get your Power Weapon made the way you like it (ie mace, sword, axe, etc). What does the Crozius look like anyway?
Power Armor>Flak Armor. Which is what they would be reduced to if they dropped the PA. I can't do the Bolter-Lasgun comparison because they don't have a big enough > button :D .

[DarthFelth]

Have you ever even looked at space marine chaplain

[chocolate]

Accept it. This is over. Thousand Sons don't use crozius- end of story.

[DarthFelth]

I would if your reason wernt so crappy, its just, well the other reasons dont, but well its different for the only other legion that does.

Thats just what everyone keeps on saying, and ohh teh best ones, saying how codex train Libs, thats was the best and how the thousand son wouldnt have a character who isnt duel role and how a sorecrer would perform the role, erm no, a chaplain would perform the role who was a psyker, none have you ahve given that great a reason for me to change my mind, The basic guys dont need them, ohh silly me, cos only like 2 men in the chaptor are pretty much mindless :argh:

or the best one, how they dont need to worship Tzeentch in that way, that proves even more you dont know much as Khorne is the only god who dosnt require worship in the form of other gods. Yes they may seek knowledge but Tzeentch still requires worship ;).

[chocolate]

Although its hard to read, your post seems to be agreeing with us. If not, I think the best I can say to possibly convince you now is this- a. rozarius. would. never. be. used. by. a. thousand. son. marine. because. it. is. a. holy. symbol. of. the. false. emperor.

[DarthFelth]

same would apply to a World bearer then ;) ohh wait it dosnt

[chocolate]

Thats because the Word Bearers still have faith; in hideous immortal dark gods of chaos. They corrupted the rozarius as the ultimate insult to the imperium, plus it was convenient. The Thousand Sons do not worship Tzeentch like the other legions do, and have no needs for crozarius.