The Dragon!??

[shorno]

Ive read a few threadds regarding a Dragon i think its something to do with the necrons, im assuming its a c`tan.. could anyone explain some more as i havent heard about him..
thanks

[Coey]

He is one of the C'Tan yes, and he's sleeping on Mars, and he's the Machine God

[TS_ahriman]

He MIGHT be the machine god. It's very probable, but hasn't been comfirmed by GW.

[chocolate]

But its mind bendingly close to being official.

[Icarus]

He *almost* certainly is the Machine God, which could lead to an interesting division within the imperium if the Dragon awoke, as it is rumoured he may for a summer campaign. It would be a great twist if he wasnt though, and something else altogether was going on.

[TS_ahriman]

Though for the life of me, I can't think of something that GW could do this summer that would be more enjoyable than having the dragon wake up (Unless the "Ahriman is trying to find a power weapon" campaign is still available).

[chocolate]

I think thats pretty much over, since the Harlequin are currently in the possession of Czevak.

[TS_ahriman]

But surely....somewhere....any power weapon??? It doesnt even matter if it's pretty.

[Evan_gelion]

The hints of the dragon being the machine god are just tantalizing bits to make people wonder "could it be?" so don't take it as gospel just because things are close. Hell, I thought Sanguinius chinking Abaddon's armor was official fluff, until some SM players screamed at me that "THAT'S ONLY WHAT THE BLOOD ANGELS SAY!" and insisting that is not the case. Scary folk some can be.

Anyway, with that said, I think the dragon awaking would be a horrible idea frankly because it de-mystifies that little bit about the Adeptus Mechanicus. There's not enough build up yet to something like that, and besides, we still have to deal with Chaos pushing forward not that they won the Eye of Terror. I think that this Machine God dragon business will remain like many of the things in 40K (I.E. "Is Abaddon really the genetic clone of Horus, or "Is Khaine Khorne? Or is he a minor Khorne deity, or what?"--Suggested in the Hordes of Chaos fantasy book.) mysterious and whispered about but never revelead. And I think it should stay that way. the 40K verse is a big, mysterious place that should have more questions than answers. Revealing themes that have been running constant since it's inception (this "Machine god" has been around a while) would just--no, I don't think I'd like it.

[Average Boss]

No no no The Dragon is on The Vaul Moon it says right in the codex "The Vaul Moon shall bring forth The Dragon". Which means The Outsider is on Mars. They are both unawakened C' Tan

[TS_ahriman]

The outsider is in his dyson sphere...which is rediculously huge. He's the outsider because he's not really around at the moment, so having the outsider suddenly be on Mars would contradict what little GW fluff we have currently.

[Spawncraft]

No wonder we can't find him hes probably flying through space or something

[Coey]

Oh sorry, I thought that it was offical fluff, but it probably is.

[ShadowFox]

Are the Outsider and Dragon only mentioned in White Dwarf, or are they in some of the books?

[Athair]

I'm pretty sure they're mentioned in Codex:Necrons
I always took the Vaul Moon to be Mars. It would make sense, as it would fit both rumors, and aliens probably don't use our names for planets and stuff :bandit: .

[TS_ahriman]

In eldar fluff, vaul was the god of the forge. It stands to reason that the homeworld of the adeptus mechanicus (mars) would have some fancy name to imply this.

[ShadowFox]

I am pretty sure the names "outsider" and "Dragon" are not mentioned once in the entire Necron Codex.

[TS_ahriman]

But they have other names, which certainly ARE mentioned. If you ask me what they are though....well....let's just say that i forget. There are specific references to them though.

[exsulis]

Yes, Outsider, and the Iron Dragon are the last two Necrons to awaken. One of them is on Mars. Which one I do not know, and I cannot remember a article that states which one it is that is on Mars. I heard a rummor that the next 40K campaine was going to deal with Outsider awakening, or being awakened.

[ShadowFox]

But they have other names, which certainly ARE mentioned. If you ask me what they are though....well....let's just say that i forget. There are specific references to them though.

It doesn't even do that....All it does is have the part where Abaddon uses a Demon to discover what is on Mars, but it never mentions what it is. Also, there is a part where 5 Necron ships penetrated the Mar's Orbital defenses and landed on the surface, where they were instantly vaporized. What purpose this served I do not know. It talks about the Talisman's of Vaul, but no where is the Outsider mentioned. I assume anything that related to Mars was hinting to the wereabouts of "The Dragon", but it never even mentions him or refers to the other C'tan. The Necron Codex merely states that these other two C'tan are still in hibernation.

I still want to know where everyone is getting this information on the Outsider and The Dragon because it sure as hell isn't the Necron Codex. If its from White Dwarf I would really appreciate someone linking me to the article.

[Athair]

I don't have a Necron Codex so I'm not quite sure, but I think it mentions a prophecy about the Dragon waking. Very foggy in my memorie though. :D

[TS_ahriman]

I heard a rummor that the next 40K campaine was going to deal with Outsider awakening, or being awakened.

For the summer campaign, if a C'Tan wakes up it's going to be the dragon. The dragon is on mars.

I quote directly from the Necron codex here:

"The vaul-moon shall bring forth the Dragon."

"I have seen the Infernal machineries of the Dragon powered by the tired limbs of those which they are designed to consume."

[ShadowFox]

For the summer campaign, if a C'Tan wakes up it's going to be the dragon. The dragon is on mars.

I quote directly from the Necron codex here:

"The vaul-moon shall bring forth the Dragon."

"I have seen the Infernal machineries of the Dragon powered by the tired limbs of those which they are designed to consume."

Guess it did, but what about the outsider? And where does it say about him being on mars? I would assume something or Necron origin is on mars, but why would a C'tan be there? It would take quite a lot of writing to explain what would happen. An incident so close to Terra would be quite the step for GW.

[TS_ahriman]

Hence, what would turn out to be a very exciting summer campaign...not to mention the potential treachery of many adeptus mechanicus guys.

As to the Outsider, he's in his Dyson sphere waaaaaaaay far away.

[The Collector]

The only problem with the "Vaul Moon" idea is that Mars is not a moon.

Someone get a list of Forge Worlds, Maiden Worlds and Crone worlds and check for a possible link.

[Dimension]

maybe Mars was a Moon at some point of time.

maybe the Dragon is on one of Mars's Moons (Phobos or Deimos)

maybe the scribes fucked up and mistranslated the Eldar Prophecy.

[Chivalry1978]

Ok as I am a necron player and a mod of a necron board I have to say this...The Dragon is on mars and is rumored to be the machine god, read necron codex has some interesting stories about it...the outsider is a ctan who ate so many other ctan at once he went insane and started destroying whole star systems in his madness.. and then ran off and was trapped in a warp shield dyson sphere which traps him and yet feeds him at the same time.......

As for the division of the imperium it wouldnt be much of a streach and would open up a whole new playable army, loyal adeptus mechanicus. Now would gw do this, yes they would as a new army means more money to be made. Now would the necrons benifit from this, well considering ctan while cool to look at suck in game play, no. However haveing adeptus mechanicus at our disposal could mean new units and some slightly converted imperial stuff.....

And the vaul moon dragoon thing mentioned is actually a chaos item that was once the eldars greatest weapon againsts necrons, blackstone fortress only 7 are know 2 are dead of the 7 and one is some where with abaddon in the eye.... Well actually the necrons killed it in the last campaign....

I hope this answers your questions

[Spawncraft]

I am pretty sure the names "outsider" and "Dragon" are not mentioned once in the entire Necron Codex.
I'm sure in the neron codex theirs a little box saying about the jackel god(deciver) sending the outsider mad

[TS_ahriman]

And in the Eldar codex (i think that was the source), it is the laughing God that defeats the outsider. There is a definate correlation between the Eldar laughing god and the Deceiver.

*Prepares flame suit*

[DarthFelth]

yeah i heard that the laughing god sent him mad ;) stinking necrons :p

[TS_ahriman]

By 'superimposing' his own image over the other C'Tan, tricking the Outsider to chomp them up and go insane.

[Spawncraft]

My mistake

[Imperial marine]

i don't really understand why mars i mean if the emperor or someone had sense they would scan the planet

[Sir Guppy]

dyson sphere? some kind of hoover? where are you people getting this stuff from. books? articles, i would also like to read this stuff first hand.

[Paradise]

The last page of the necron codex. There's a deep scan image.

[ShadowFox]

I remember that picture, but where else does it mention it?

Someone refresh my memory on who the Harlequins worship.

[Dimension]

Harlequins worship Cegorach aka the Laughing God

[Sir Guppy]

The last page of the necron codex. There's a deep scan image.

o thats what it is, i thought it was an odd planet.

[ShadowFox]

Harlequins worship Cegorach aka the Laughing God

And this is exactly why I doubt the Laughing God is TheDeceiver....

[Sir Guppy]

Im sure it is. lots of people say it is. cause he laughs at people after he screws them around.

[ShadowFox]

Im sure it is. lots of people say it is. cause he laughs at people after he screws them around.

But the Eldar know The Deceiver, and yet the Harlequins are trusted and have even been known to fight along side human forces. Why would they serve The Deceiver by being "good guys"....it makes sense that he would be the Laughing God, but the Harlequins don't really seem to perform acts that one would expect from such an evil god.

[Sir Guppy]

hmmm let me think. nope aint got an answer to that. mayb they are misguided, maybe im wrong, maybe its one of those odd eldar things, like help gazkull so he attacks humans and no eldars.

[TS_ahriman]

If you're looking for some reasons, both 'pro' and 'con' for the deceiver being the laughing god, check this out. Some decent arguments on both sides:

http://forum.librarium-online.com/lofiversion/index.php/t14477.html

[Dimension]

hem. the laughing god dwells in the warp. the warp kills C'Tan. I'd say deceiver /= Cegorach.

edit1:
Cegorach fought Slaanesh (so he was in the true warp at some point of time), and was awake during, before and after the fall. the deceiver was not.

also, eldar would have noticed the fact that the deceiver is no warp entity. the deceiver could have not bridged his nap times with an agent, because that agent obviously would not have had the powers to fool hundreds, if not thousands of eldar into not noticing this fact.

there is also no mention of the deceiver ever waking up prior to that incident when he was wakened by i think dark eldar and humans.

while the thread ahriman linked to has indeed good arguments on both sides, the seperate entity side managed to defute all of them except some of the more farfetched ones and the plays on semantics. the same cannot be said of the other side.

[TS_ahriman]

The laughing god doesnt really dwell in the warp, but the webway. The webway is not anathema to Necrons/C'Tan.

[ShadowFox]

Since the TheDeceiver has power over the physical universe I imagine he can be in more places than one at any given time, each of these entities being small extensions of himself. It would be kind of hard for him to accomplish anything if he had to focus on a single thing at a time.

[shorno]

weheyyyyyyyyy nice comments ladies and gentleman im very happy i know a bit more bout the 40K universe thanks ppl :blah:
:nana:
thanks

[Athair]

The Deciever isn't the Laughing God. There is no way ANYONE with no warp presense could trick as many Eldar as you would have to. The Deceiver was also in stasis during the Fall, while the Laughing God was awake and rumbling. They each tricked a few C'tan (what better way to pass time? :D ) and have similer personalities but that doesn't mean they are the same.
As for Cergorach existing only in the webway, I don't think so. The webway is an artifitial structure, remember? This means that he would have had to come in existence in the warp or...uh...wherever the C'tan come from :confused: .
Do they ever mention where C'tan come from?

[ShadowFox]

Do they ever mention where C'tan come from?

They were born from the stars themselves as beings of pure energy.

This is why they are called "star-gods".

[Draken2034]

again where do you people read this from???? and it says in the necron codex about the dragon, him being the machine god. There was this dude who ripped out all his tech stuff cause he didnt want to be a part of the machine god any more. he told this other dude that the machine god would enslave the human race and that everyone was going to die. Also i think it mentions the insane dude.

also, what is the fluff behind the nightbringer and deciever?

Double Post

ohh and one more thing, theres 4 c'tan. page 63.

it mentions all of them.

The dragon
Destroyer or master of death
Outsider
Jackal

all of these are described a little in each paragraph on page 63 in the necron codex.

[Sir Guppy]

well if the deciever isnt the laughing god, who is? bear in mind the deciever woke up ages ago and has be doing odd kinds of stuff for ages.

[Robot Jesus]

the laughing god is the laughing god.

the decever is the weakest of the c'tan but he is the most cleaver.

the nightbringer is the most powerful c'tan. after he started eating othe c'tans (an action he was triked into doing by the deciver) he became quite nutty. he is resposible for the fear od death in every living thing (except for orks there was no contact.)

[Kaldaris]

As its been stated the Deciever is NOT the laughing God(Cegorach).The strongest of the C'tan is the Dragon(sry Nightbringer your #2 now),the Deciever so far is the most Clever of the 4 And finally the Outsider is just nutty(some ppl think that the Giant sphere in the Necron Codex is the Outsider's Prison).

[TS_ahriman]

Yes, it's his prison/safe-place....It is called a Dyson sphere, and is too large for a human mind to comprehend.

[GrimzaksGoons]

Moon of Vaul? Is that like the Talisman at all? In fact, does Vaul really exist or do the Eldar just like attaching his name to really, really powerful things?

[Athair]

Vaul was one of the Eldar Gods. I believe he was their Forge God, and was the main one to make the enchanted stuffs. He (with everyone other than Ynnead and Cergorach) was destroyed by Slaanesh during/after the Fall.

[GrimzaksGoons]

"Moon of Vaul" an unknown, then?

Ynnead kicks ass. Will kick ass. Hahaha.

[Noise Marine]

anyone find the similarities between the fluff of the Eldar and the Silmarillion a little embarassing?

[GrimzaksGoons]

I don't remember the High Elves existing to bring about the manifestation of an ultimate god of the dead who would defeat their demonic foes.

Maybe that's just me, though.

[Noise Marine]

I don't remember the High Elves existing to bring about the manifestation of an ultimate god of the dead who would defeat their demonic foes.

Maybe that's just me, though.

No need to be facetious. I'm talking about the Eldar Gods.

[Athair]

Anyone notice the similarities between 40ks chaos gods and Fantasies?
Duh, they are made from the same game. You can expect the games to have certain similarities between the two games. GW was just to lazy (or had a plan) to put different Gods into their different games.

[shorno]

i can definatly see a similarity between simarillion and 40K but if you think about it thats wot ppl should expect most fantasy around is based upon Tolkiens books, wotcha expect hes the founder of fanasy. hope im not repeating wot sum1 else has said :argh:
cya :D

[Noise Marine]

Anyone notice the similarities between 40ks chaos gods and Fantasies?
Duh, they are made from the same game. You can expect the games to have certain similarities between the two games. GW was just to lazy (or had a plan) to put different Gods into their different games.


Duh? DUH? What are you, twelve?

[TS_ahriman]

Actually, I think he's 16 :D

As to the similarities of the Eldar gods....i don't think that this particular portion of fluff is derived from the Simarillion, but instead ancient Greek/Roman mythology.

.02

[shorno]

does anyone know if GW will be releasing more units as in the catan The Dragon or the outsider???????? :wow:

[Kaoslord]

I'm more embarassed about the similarities between Warhammer and Diablo II to be honest... The Blood Ravens?

Anyway, there's a lot of debate just what the hireachy of the C'Tan will be in the event all 4 are released. The Deciever has always been the weakest, but he's definitely one of the smartest. The Outsider is homacidally insane. The Void Dragon, on the other hand, was a completely lucid C'Tan who went into stasis, IIRC, with full stores of energy, something that the Nightbringer made a complete ballsup of. When the Void Dragon wakes, it will be fully charged, and probably nigh unstoppable. It was always believe to be the most powerful C'Tan anyway, so it will probably be orders of magnitude more powerful than Nightbringer.

As for where it is? No one's really sure. SOMETHING is on Mars, that the Necrons want, buried deep beneith the Noctus Labrynth. That much we know. Wether it is the actual Void Dragon, or just the key to it's tomb, or something else, is not yet known.

[TS_ahriman]

" I'm more embarassed about the similarities between Warhammer and Diablo II to be honest... The Blood Ravens? "


I couldn't find more than a couple similarities between the games without making ridiculous stretches in logic.

Hmmm.....

Frozenstein, the new Ogryn special character. :D

[Imrix]

As near as i can figure, The Dragon is on mars (Or 'Vaul moon' to the eldar, which if you think about it makes sense, Vaul: smith god, Mars: home of adeptus mechanicus) and if he gets awakened will basically screw the imperium as a whole to hell, since the entire or almost entire adeptus mechanicus will willingly follow him, result: imperium has nothing for technology AT ALL. Plus the Dragon is supposed to be some kind of awesome technolgy controller so he could just walk into battle against chaos marines and say "no armour for you, and those guns look awfully dangarous for kiddies like you" and suddenly you've got a load of heretic marines standing naked and unarmed.

Basically, as far as I can tell, Dragon awakes: necrons win: universe goes to hell.

Edit: but you already knew that.

A few things I'm pretty sure of though, the dragon may or may not be the machine god, but either way the Adeptus Mechanicus wll still go follow it, since WE know he might not be the machine god, they dont and the control he'd have would be pretty convincing.

In fact... heeeeey, I may have just figured the general necron plan, Necron codex makes mention of a 'Great work' which would ensure victory, and that it must be completed, hands up all who think the Dragon will be involved in that?, i certainly do.

[Geingard]

To slightly aside from the conversation those of you not entirely aware what people mean when they refer to a Dyson sphere. Its a spherical enclosure created around a sun based on the size of the species homeplanets orbit taking into account the type and output of the sun. Allowing whatever builds the sphere to harness 100% of the suns power providing near infinite power for the lifetime of the sun and also increasing the living space of the species by a huge factor compared to a planet.

The Dragon stuff sounds interesting. Although it surely would completely mess up humanities day having their machine core basically cut in half when they are fighting on so many fronts and of course the fact that the latest front would be practically on the emperors doorstep :/.

[Erikjust]

also if you i remeber right most off the humans Tecnologi was lost during the civil wars that followed after the emporor had defated horus and was locked to the golden trone.
Now how did the humans then gain all the lost Tecnologi agin i one simple word the C´tan or more likely the dragon who said he hadn´t been awoke just for a little while and said to the humans if you bring me op to date white what has happened during the time i sleept i will give you some off the stuff you need to get back on the track(it´s obsolete to us eney way) well we know the rest the humans said sure mister Dragon what ever you need to know we´ll get it fore you as long as you provide us white the Tecnologi we need we´ll do eney thing for you.

[Paradise]

Someone said the NightBringer is the most powerful C'tan... You're so wrong. He was quite powerful when he had his weapon(If you touched it = dead, it was thrown into the warp, sadly), but still no match for the dragon. He was among the most powerful, that is true. But look at The Outsider, he has been sucking a sun dry for a very long time, while creating a large dyson sphere, that is amazing.

[Coey]

But the Dragon can't be on Mars, as it isn't a moon.

Unless I'm missing something.

[TS_ahriman]

The Vaul Moon is just another Eldar term for Mars. The dragon's on Mars.

[Coey]

Why would they call it a Moon? Unless Eldar planets are far superiour to Human planets.

[Bloodtalon]

You might be intersted to know that when I attended a tournament in Nottingham a year or so ago, there was a kind of question time for people like Gav Thorpe, Aleisso Cartavore and Andy Chambers. One of the questions that came up was about C'Tan. They announced that they do have definate plans for a summer campaign and that they do indeed plan to release the other C'Tan at some point. They even SPECIFICALLY (a new one for GW :)) said that they were going to release one C'Tan soon, adn keep another one aside with no real plans as a kind of "trump card" to use when they need it, to leave a little bit of mystery around (incidentally, this also happened:
guy in audience 1: "When are you going to release new Chaos Dwarves?"
Gav: "no comment"
guy in audience 2: "Have you got any new model ideas for Chaos Dwarves"
Gav: [laughing] "OK, can we now move on from Chaos Dwarves. [points to guy with hand up] Yes, you?"
guy in audience 3: "when are you going to release new Squats?"
:) lol

anyway,
OK guys here is what I know and believe about the whole C'Tan thing. Some (or all!) of it may be wrong, especially as someone i lent my Necron codex hasn't given it back for about 2 years, so feel free to correct me:

There are 4 C'Tan: The Deciever (clever); The Nightbringer (pretty strong dude); The Outsider (nutcase, hannibal of the C'Tan race) and Dragon (Kick ass strong dude).

We already know that Deciever and Nightbringer are awake, so what about the other two?
Well, It makes a lot of sense for Dragon to be on (or in) Mars: The Necron Codex hints at this quite strongly. The "Vaul Moon" might not be exact, but Vaul could certainly be seen to equate the Machine God, and maybe he was on a moon to start with, or maybe the Eldar are making a vague description of Mars being a kind of "moon" to Terra. A secondary core world if you like. The Adeptus Mechanicus are VERY secretive, so it makes sense that if they found something so advanced as a C'Tan pod they would only allow their real top guys to know about it, not even the High Lords. The Dragon could be seen as the Machine GOd himself, or maybe his "Omnissiah" (reference in the Necron Codex), the Machine God's messiah. After all, not only are the Necrons very technologically advanced, but the C'Tan are supposed to have bodies of "living metal", something most tech priests seem to be personally striving for. He is asleep, and they may well believe that mankind will enter a "new age" with his coming. non-believers will have to be cleansed to make way for the new diety (the mechanicus often seem to believe in the Machine God more than the Emperor). Such a move would be seen as heretical by the Eccelsiarchy and could spark a religious civil war within the Imperium. That as a campaign could open up a lot of potentially cool stuff:
Adeptus Mechanicus army lists
a new C'Tan of course
New Eldar stuff (crosses fingers "Harlequin codex! Harlequin codex!")
Interesting story, maybe certain Eldar finally having to bite down on their arrogance and help humanity against the threat they remember so well
Some Imperial armies using Chaos stuff (e.g. Radical Inquisitors) if they ever realise how potent it is againts the C'Tan
etc, etc

As for the Outsider, I know a lot less. Only that the map in the Necron Codex shows Tyranid Swarm Leviathan moving around a sphere of some sort. I'm guessing it's ole Outsider sitting tight, especially given that its position in relation to Imperial space (i.e. "below" it, if such a term can be applied) seems pretty outside to me. Also, If Dragon is on Mars (which he 80%-90% sure he is) than that's about all that's left

p.s. Kaoslord: Diablo II came out WAY after warhammer (even 40K) and "Blood Ravens" is hardly much of a crucial point.

[Erikjust]

korrect me If i am wrong but i think that the eldars evolution pretty muts looked like the humans so if we take the time from when the eldars where created and to the necrons went to sleep whitin there crybts only a 1000 year went by and if we think that the eldars evolution pretty musts where like the humans mabey they where a little ahead but not muts so it might be limmeted what they remember from that time.

[TS_ahriman]

.....um, yeah. Someone else can translate that.....

[xenos182]

from what i got of that he reckons the eldar are about 60mill year old and were created about 1000 years after the necrons went into statis for the first time. then something about human and eldar have similar evolution trees which isnt true at all. you just have to look at eldar technolgy to human technolgy.

[Mystic Fibrosis]

Ok, here's a little thought.

Vaul - God of the Forge.
Mars - Forge World.
Moon of Vaul. Moon of "Forge", if you will.

[CenturionCajun]

There are hundreds of Forge Worlds across the Imperium. Its just a title given to worlds which serve a certain purpose.

[Milkymalk]

New C'Tan, Adeptus Mechanicus Army List and Harlequins sounds pretty nice to me. Because what bugs me most is that 90% of my opponents field exclusively Power Armors and Terminator Armors, making one army look like any other...

My guess is also that the Dragon is on Mars, the deep scan image in the codex should be proof enough. Perhaps Chaos armies will be able to include Enslavers once the Dragon awakens and the "Great War" begins?

[Lenz]

i thought the enslavers were individual and they would butcher living thingys, its said that they stopped the c'tans by exterminating there food (living people) And another thing is at GW HP is a deepscan image of a sphere of a kind (dont know if its a craftworld or what) and it says that there is no present information so it migt be the outsider (btw anyone who knows anything about it)... strange...

[SGM_Azrael]

Hell, I thought Sanguinius chinking Abaddon's armor was official fluff

It's not, he 'chinked' Horus' armour, rumoured to have help the emperor kill his despicable son.


an action he was triked into doing by the deciver

Sorry, the Laughing God tricked the Nightbringer into devouring the C'Tan.

[blacksun]

And the vaul moon dragoon thing mentioned is actually a chaos item that was once the eldars greatest weapon againsts necrons, blackstone fortress only 7 are know 2 are dead of the 7 and one is some where with abaddon in the eye.... Well actually the necrons killed it in the last campaign....

the blackstone fortesses are if i remember not the vaul moon but instead the "talismans of vaul".. correct me if im wrong

and the thing about the laughing god being the the deciver, dont think so.. i think the harelquins would know that, the eldar were created to battle the eldar and ctan so i dont think they would be worshipping the deciver

[TS_ahriman]

Blackstone fortresses are called the talismans of vaul.

Regarding the laughing god.....the Eldar wouldn't worship it knowingly. They would have to be tricked, and tricking the Eldar isn't an easy prospect. Then again, GW might make it happen anyway....

[Athair]

My 2 cents...
Dragon is on Vaul Moon (named by Eldar).
"Vaul" is the Eldar God of the Fordge.
Mars is the greatest of all Forge worlds.
Adeptus Mechanus worship the Machine God (who is rumored to be the Dragon)

So it does make sense, if you think about it... :D

[Decadence]

Actually, 'The Dragon' is merely the Eldar name for the Nightbringer.
The Machine God is NOT a C'tan, the Machine God is merely consensus belief made manifest.

However, the Machine Cult do have a sarcophagus containing a C'tan on Mars, which they found on some planet back when the Necrons proper (and not just Chaos Androids) came onto the scene.

The Deciever is known by the Eldar as 'The Great Harlequin'. The two are the same.

The Eldar were created by the Old Ones along with the Orks (who term the Old Ones as 'Brain Boyz, though in earlier cannon they were created by the Necrontyr, though later changed) in an attempt to defeat the Necrontyr and the C'Tan by using 'emotive' races, using psychic force.
The Eldar beat the Necrons into oblivion, started their empire, grew Decadent, and birthed Slaanesh, who kicked the crap out of Khaine (an aspect of Khorne) and sent the Harlequin packing.

Humanity was not created by the Old Ones, but rather by Khorne, who created them in his own image to bring war to the galaxy (Liber Chaotica: Khorne).
They're doing a bang up job, I'd say.

Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle rose to prominence as the most powerful Chaos entities when fed by the hatred, suffering and twisted intent of the Necrontyr empire, but later became influenced by the Eldar (when they became the dominant race, and spawned a new god at the end) and lastly by humanity.

[shorno]

sowwwwwwwwie but ur wrong im afraid the old ones fought against the Necrontyr cos the Necrontyr started worshipping the c'tan the c'tan made the Necrontyr into robots then decided to try n kill the old ones i duno wot happened to the old ones but the races they made ie orks n eldar did NOT defeat the necrons the necrons simply slept. the eldar being the most intelligent made defences against the necrons wen they returned. itsss all in the necron codex! :bandit:
laterrrrrrrr

[SGM_Azrael]

The Deciever is known by the Eldar as 'The Great Harlequin'. The two are the same.
I think that is the Laughing God, who the Harlequins themselves worship. The Deceiver being a C'Tan.
http://uk.games-workshop.com/40kuniverse/warhammer40k/necrons/gallery/large/deceiver.htm
and
http://uk.games-workshop.com/40kuniverse/warhammer40k/eldar/harlequins.htm

Humanity was not created by the Old Ones, but rather by Khorne, who created them in his own image to bring war to the galaxy (Liber Chaotica: Khorne).
They're doing a bang up job, I'd say.
I haven't read the Chaotica, but would you mind checking that? Didn't humanity evolve in the 40k universe?
"We have sung the songs of lament even before you crawled on your bellies out of the ocean" - Eldred Urthran

[DeathtoHeretics]

The Necrontyr would have had that Sarchophahus on Mars a long time before Humanity Came.

Khorne must have known it was there, The Necrontyr are one of the 2 Things that can kill Chaos. (The Emperor NEARLY R.I.P, The C'Tan) So would he, If creating the Humans, and knowing the would spread, send it there?

I dont think Khone created Humans. No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.

Yeah, and when Necrons was going to be released.
"The Necrons were flying around in spaceships while Humanity was crawling put of Mud and Thought Bashing Two Stones together was a pretty neat idea."
Which it still is.

[Decadence]

Yes, Khorne created humanity. Read the chaotica books (even if not for this - they are EXCELLENT pieces of work, and I heartilly recommend anyone interested in the fluff to pick them up).

And no, the C'tan cannot kill Chaos, and neither could the Emperor. Chaos is existence, and as such, eternal. The C'tan are not 'gods', and neither is the Emperor, they are merely worshipped as such by people blinded by lies and propoganda.

And shorno? That was the single worst grasp of backstory I've ever seen.
Oh, and the codices only tell the point of view from that specific race.
Example - in Fantasy, the Undead book has Nagash destroyed by Alcadizzar acting alone. The Skaven book, on the other hand, shows their manipulation behind the scenes, and their possession of Alcadizzar.
One book alone does not hold the complete truth (well, maybe the Tzeentch Chaotica, which shouldn't be read until after the other three).

[SGM_Azrael]

Yet GW call the C'Tan gods in numerous places.

[DeathtoHeretics]

Hold Up, I may have found a link.

The Sentil Worlds.
Been swarming with Necrons since the 13th Black Crusade and they've been unearthing pylons.

Liber Chaotica? I dont want to waste my money on those while I can believe in evolution.

You've either got one or the other.

[Decadence]

GW call the Emperor a God, too. Yet he's no more a god than Abaddon or Ahriman are.

Oh, and the Liber Chaotica, a watse of money?
What a foolish notion....

[waren_alkar]

How could Khorne have created humanity when it was humanities growing affect on the natural state of the Warp that created the Chaos Powers in the first place?

[DeathtoHeretics]

Why did Khorne create something which can destroy his minions (but not him).
Rally the word we are thinking of the Emperor here is...Demigod?
er.........
Decadence by any chance to you know something called the Horus Heresy by Sabertooth?

[TS_ahriman]

We were created by the Old Ones. Besides, I didn't think Khorne was that into genetics and stuff.

[Decadence]

Khorne creating humanity is in the Khorne Liber Chaotica book.

Of course, like all other fluff, this is NOT concrete, merely one possibility of many.
But it's the one I happen to feel happist with.
I'm not trying to shove my interpretation on anyone else.

[TS_ahriman]

I don't own the liber chaotica for Khorne.....could you quote the passage? It would help.

[Erikjust]

Ok I think I will say a thing or to first YES we where created by the old ones so where the necrontyr the reason that Orcs and eldars and so many other where created where that the old ones where beginning to be terrified of the necrons and C´tans also you seam to miss something before the necrons became the necrons they had actually met the old ones and as for the necrontyr it was hate from first site.
Why should a race like the old ones being blessed by almost eternal life why they where cursed white short painful lives.
Now then the first war came and the old ones kicked the necrontyrs asses until them where nothing more then a short bugger now a then likes mosquitoes are for us.
Now there where two people on the necrontyrs home planet those whose job was to make better weapons against the old ones and then there where people there where reasserting why there star was killing them and it was then they discovers the C´tans now how they where able to make contact and communicate white them remains a mystery even today but I think the deciver might had a finger or two in how the necronstyr where able to make contact white them and maybe even the others.

Well now they had a new weapon and when the C´tans persuade them to become the necrons the second war began and it was there that among others the elder and orks where created.

And what I meant earlier was that the elder only experienced the last 1000 years of the necrons and C´tans war against the old ones and that there by it must be limited what the elders remember from that time as they cut not have been that advanced back then.

As fore the moon of vaul well I have heard that there is NO iron left on mars who’s to say that the elders didn’t also lived on Mars but only had to flee as the C´tans attacked well they might have put up a god fight the elders but had at last after ceiling the C´tan had had no other choice but to leave mars for god because off fear for what the C´tan might do to them if it woke up.
As for mars not being a moon well I don’t know how the elder sees the universe but it might be that when they lived on mars they saw it only as a Second moon of the earth

[shorno]

haha decadence btw how can u argue that the books only hold there point of view bla bla bla then say that Khorne DEFINATLY created humanity cos it says it in the Liber Chaotica.. bit hypercritical .. theres noway he created humanity when ive read multiple sources stating that khorne was born from the blood shed by humanity like all the chaos gods they r created by species fundamental desires. slaanesh eldars lust for example..
i kno that nothings concrete but still.
laters :werd:

[Athair]

WHAT!!!!!!
Decadence (sorry) but do you know what you're talking about?! The Deciever is not known by the Eldar as the Great Harlequin! (FYI, Great Harlequins are the Eldar leaders of the Harlequin warbands. I think you meant the Laughing God) The Eldar 'extremely dislike' ( :tooth: ) the C'tan and their Necron slaves (one of my pet peeves is the Eldar Gods being called C'tan). The Eldar can tell the difference between a Warp Entity and a non-Warp entity, so I think it unlikly that the Deciever is the Laughing God (different Thread elsewhere for this).
Also, I won a Pin a Games Day for being able to name the 4 C'tan: The Deciever, Nightbringer, Outsider, and Dragon. So My guess is that their seperate. :bandit:

[Kaldaris]

The Necrontyr were NOT created by the old ones.They were one of the first races to emerge from the primordial soup.

[ShadowFox]

Erikjust....it was extremely painful to read your post. Please use the edit button.....

[Decadence]

Hypocritical?
Um, no.
This is my interpretation after the Liber Chaotica Khorne, and I came to the conclusion from pieces and hints from the various stories and 'lore' in the book.
If you don't agree, that's fine. I'm not trying to force anyone to believe my opinion, merely bringing a different point of view for thought.

I'd advise anyone to try to get hold of these 4 books either way, though.

Oh, and for the record, the Laughing God used to be known as the Great Harlequin a long time ago, in addition to being the title of the Harlequin troope leaders.
Didn't know they'd retired that usage.....

And shorno could do with having a more open mind.

[shorno]

i have one sonny jim, i was jus telling u my opinion n in my opinion u were wrong thats all.. no offence intended at all m8 i was jus giving my opinion. :jaw:

[d3itY]

the deviever is the machine god tbh, just read the necron codex extra story bits and history, you will soon understand.

[DeathtoHeretics]

Can you prove this. I had a look at the Necron Codex (I fooled the player good and proper Muahahahahaha!) but didin't pick up anything special (staring in disbelief at the Guass Weapon rules) But I would love to see your side.

[SGM_Azrael]

GW call the Emperor a God, too.
Because on most worlds of the Imperium his is revered as such.
http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/w40krp/imperial_cult.shtml
But WE all know differently, as do the Marine Chapters and the administratum. Except of course the Ecclesiarchy (sp?).

[Yggdrasil]

LONG POST

Ok, there's a lot of conflicting reports flying around on this forum. I really love the 40K universe and I think I have a pretty good grasp of what's going on, ancient history especially (cause GW can't change that)

Let's start as early as possible in the timeline.

The galaxy starts off with two extermely powerful (godlike) races, the C'tan and the Old Ones, with various minor races just like the galaxy today. The C'Tan, like the Kricketers of old, looked out on life and decided it had to be destroyed. The Old Ones weren't too keen on being killed and a war started.

The C'tan used their advanced technology and a bit of flashy god tricks to enslave an entire interstellar civilization, the Necrontyr, put their souls into robot bodies, and made them their front-line troops. The Old Ones used their various powers to create a variety of races to combat the Necrontry and the C'tan. The most successful of these races were the Eldar and Orks. (No humans here)

The C'tan had a great advantage in technology, but the Eldar and Orks (the two most psychically potent races in the game, though orks don't know it!) had an advantage in manipulating the warp, which the C'tan and their newly-dead minions were oblivious to. So it was sorcery vs. technology, and the sorcery won out through undoubtedly fancy battles.

The Eldar fluff disagrees as to whether the Eldar gods are in fact warp entities or the Old Ones. Later fluff make it pretty clear that the events of Eldar mythology were going on during the war against the C'tan, but in earlier fluff the C'tan had not been inserted into the game yet and the Eldar gods were clearly warp entities. Going with "newest is best" the Old Ones are the eldar gods, or possibly a bizarre syncretism of warp entities and the remains of the Old One civilization.

The C'tan lost the war, mostly because they self-destructed when the Deceiver and Laughing God, acting independently, started getting them to eat each other. Four C'tan survived (Void Dragon, Outsider, Nightbringer, Deceiver) and went to sleep in protected locations, to emerge when the Old Ones fell. (I understand the necron codex disagrees with this, saying they killed everything and ran out of food, but its probably just being flattering to its own gods)

The Void Dragon is probably on mars, but we can't yet be sure.

The Eldar civilization flourishes and expands to some 1/4 the galaxy, though their influnce likely reached beyond that. They develop advanced technology based on their innate psychic powers. The Orks degenerate into their present state somehow. They lose the brainboyz, whatever that means. Modern Orks are not good record-keepers. They develop advanced technology such as the rock.

The Emperor is born sometime in the 8th century B.C., and keeps himself secret. He is the psychic manifestation of all that is good in the human race. He may or may not be the culmination of an ancient program to create the perfect man. The fluff that says this is VERY old.

The humans, seemingly unaware of eldar civilization centered in the northwest of the galaxy, expands in a roughly circular area around earth. The ironically named Dark Age of Technology develops the Navigator subspecies and allows warp travel, and pushes human colinization out to the galactic fringes everywhere but the north end of the galaxy (earth being southwest of the core on 40K maps) The Chaos Gods as we know them (minus Slaanesh) have taken shape by this time, though what they have been doing without any substantial warp/realspace overlays is anyone's guess.

The Eldar Fall begins, the eldar slide to decadence and decay, and the ensuing psychic chaos throws the warp into utter turmoil. Humans lose the ability to travel more than ~5 light years in the warp and galactic civilization crumbles.

There are those who say there was a war between humans and robots somewhere during the Dark Age of Technology that contributed to humanity's downfall, but that is all taken from a metaphorical account of humanity's creation in the back of the 3rd edition rulebook, so who knows what it means exactly. In any case, the disruption of the warp is the last nail in the coffin.

Slaanesh is born as the Eldar fall culminates in the destruction of every eldar soul in the core of their empire and the creation of the Eye of Terror. The Eldar are instantly reduced to a race of refugees. All the Eldar gods are destroyed by Slaanesh except for the Laughing God and Khaine. Khaine is shattered into thousands of avatars and can no longer manifest himself.

Warp travel becomes possible for humans again. The emperor reveals himself, unites Terra (Earth) and tries to create a race of superhumans to reconquer the galaxy. He creates "primarch" children from his own DNA to be the progenitors of his new warriors. He incubates them on the moon, in a very secure lab shielded by his psychic power. The forced of Chaos try to destroy the infants, but succeed only in scattering them about the galaxy. The emperor is forced to modify normal humans with primarch genes to make his super race. (Hence, Space Marines) The Space Marines undertake the Great Crusade re-unite most of mankind in 300 years. The imperium is founded, the Primarchs recovered, and the Horus Heresy follows. It is very well documented elsewhere. Sometime around here the Deceiver wakes up.

BTW, The Laughing God is not the Deceiver. They are two very dissimilar entities with similar methods. The Deceiver was asleep during the Fall of the Eldar, in which the Laughing God played a very important role.

P.S. Khorne did not create humans, they evolved normally. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

[Erikjust]

Where does it say WHEN the deceiver woke up.
The only thing i cut find in the codex is that the deceiver had been around for some time now longer then the Nightbringer.

ohh and the nightbringer is NOT called Dragon by the eldar he is called tranlated the destroyer of light i think is Kaelis Ra

[Decadence]

Ok, there's a lot of conflicting reports flying around on this forum. I really love the 40K universe and I think I have a pretty good grasp of what's going on, ancient history especially (cause GW can't change that)


1 - we likely ALL think we have a good grasp.

2 - GW change the ancient history all the friggin' time.

3 - there's a lot of conflicting ideas here because GW publish a lot of conflicting information, much of which is open to interpretation.

[SilentMobius]

Hmmm Something Decadance said


And no, the C'tan cannot kill Chaos, and neither could the Emperor. Chaos is existence, and as such, eternal.

I don't think so. Most GW sources agree that the Chaos god reprisent "Corrupt" warp energy. Now the question is are all corrupting/decieving/sensual/warring emotions inherently "corrupt" or do they have a "pure" form.

The me rephrase, previous to the occurance of the entities Korne, Slaanesh, Tzneench(sp?), and Nurgle what happened to the energies that they would later feed on? You could say they all went into making the Chaos gods, but I don't think it's as cut an dried than that.

I think that because they have identity they are corrupt. They are sepperated from the balancing force of the warp and in the act of existing they weaken that balancing force causing turmoil and further imbalance.

Imagine the buddhist ideal, you become enlightened and die, your sould lets go if its identity and you become one with all things

Applying this to 40K you would be spread throughout the warp normally (historically) there is balance and calm. Now humans come in and pool lots of hate and anger in one area of the warp, rather that spreading out it starts to gather and eventually develops an emotive mass and as such creates a deformation in the warp like a gravitational singularity. Similar emotios begin to move to the deformation until eventually it breaks the fabric of the bedium that contains it (the warp) like a black hole of emotions.

So we have these Chaos Gods that feed of their own brand of emotion. But if these emotions were spread out as they used to be would the singularitys exist? would they have identiity? I don't think they would. So in that sense I think that the Chaos gods could be destroyed, as their identity does not seem to be a requirement, only the continued existance of the emotive presence in the warp will always remain.

For example, The C'tan Deciever tricks the other C'tan and the Laughing God also has a go at them.... does Tzneench benifit from this massive deception? I think not because these being are powerfull enough to retain their emotive energies, so as not to allow them to flow into the Chaos singularities.

[Yggdrasil]

Well, for your positive warp energy, I think that's your Emperor right there. I mean, he's a warp entity in his own right, he just happened to have a physical form as well.

The Eldar right now are trying to maintain a psychic low profile, and doing a bang up job, so all their positive energy goes into their infinity circuits.

The whole point of a gothic universe is that bad things are going on. Seems to me that in a galaxy where the largest empire is constantly at war with just about everything, including itself, negative warp energy would be prevailing. No good vibrations.

Decadence, I've tried to label the parts of that little history that are up for grabs. Other things are generally not disputed, because corroborating evidence appears all over the place. The Horus Heresy or the Eldar Fall are mentioned in mulitiple codices and articles, for example.

The main issue I have with Khorne creating humanity is that it is totally against his character to create something like a human.

[Kadaj]

if khorne had created humans they would have 89.3 arms each with 12000 blades of doom each possesed by a bloodthirster and be able to kill anything whenever.

back to reality, humans came b4 khorne

[CrimsonHellkite]

Decadence: the Chaos gods weren't born until after the Emperor's creation. That's why another Emperor cannot be created: because the Chaos gods are screwing around with the warp. So your theory about Khorne being the father of humanity is incorrect.

Cegorach and the Deciever cannot be the same being. C'tan hate the warp, whereas Cegorach hides in the warp. If they are the same, that's a fucking huge plot hole that Games Workshop stumbled over.

The Dragon isn't the same as Nightbringer. Nightbringer is still out and fighting with Necrons while the Dragon is imprisoned.

If the Machine Gun isn't the Dragon, it isn't just some manifested entity. It's a warp entity on its own right. Orks can make things out of belief, not humans.

[The Collector]

Humans created the Chaos gods. Their feelings gave rise to the warp entities associated with destruction/decay, trickery/cleverness, and violence. The Eldar had some wild sex orgies or whatnot and summoned Slaneesh, the god of un-paralleled hedonism.

The Machine God is not the Deceiver.

The Machine God is most likely the dragon, the Necron codex hints at things "worshipped long before the Emperor" on Mars, more specifically, ancient things were "paid homage" on Mars before the Emperor's arrival.

Mars is not a Moon. Vaul Moon could be anything. It is probably some moon on a sentinel world with a eldar artifact, and is probably hidden in Gav Thorpe's notebook under his pillow somewhere. We have no conclusive evidence on Vaul Moon, though without more information it's just mars.

Also, stop picking on Erikjust. English is not his first language.

Three, Necromancer CrimsonHellKite, I name thee and will banish you;

For a few hours or a day. :P

[L.O.I.]

Didn't read through the whole thread but bear with me here.

@ crimsonhellkite: Ummm... It was always to my understanding that the 3 old chaos gods were created long LONG before any fluff can tell us. They were NOT created by Humans, but Humans certainly aided their power. Slanesh was created by the Eldar Race Cracking in Half (so to speak) and that is the NEWEST GOD which was formed before humanity even got out of our solar system.

[CrimsonHellkite]

The first three Chaos gods weren't fully awakened until the Middle Ages. The Emperor was created in -8 B.C.

The reason why the shaman then could create the Emperor was because they manipulated the calm warp. With the birth of the Chaos gods, the shaman could not manipulate the warp anymore; hence when the Emperor must be kept alive or humanity is fucked.

[eventhorizon]

NECROMANCY!

before you, Crimson, the last post was almost a year ago!

oh, and the shamans were realising that they were losing the ability to reincarnate due to the mewling chaos powers eating them, which is why they decided to create the new man.

[the_living_god]

Firstly: HOLY THREAD NECROMANCY BATMAN!
Secondly: Hellkite, how did you even find this? ... *sigh*

Thridly: "Vaul" was the Eldar god of the Forge and making things before he got devoured by She Who Thirsts. He was also crippled by Khaine, but that's another story.

The connection is that Mars is supposed to be THE FORGE WORLD ie: Vaul's world/moon whatever. But this peice of evidence is not as strong as the whole "darker powers were worshipped" thing.

Also, L.O.I is correct, the first three and even the fourth Chaos god started to manifest long, long, long ago, probably even before the war in heaven began.

[GarbageMan]

Also: The Emperor wasn't "created" -8 B.C., but many many many many many moons before then. You're implying that the Emperor was Jesus and nothing more, when in fact he dates farther back than the Old Kingdoms of Egypt.

Wait a second. How can a time segment be negative? There is no negative time! WTF?

DAMN YOU!! NEXT TIME, GADGET, NEXT TIIIIME!!!

[CrimsonHellkite]

Whoops, my bad. I meant the eighth millenium B.C. Not year negative eight B.C. >_>

[Tinweasel]

Ive read a few threadds regarding a Dragon i think its something to do with the necrons, im assuming its a c`tan.. could anyone explain some more as i havent heard about him.. Well, I think the concept of not just The Dragon, but The Deceiver, Nightbringer, and Outsider have been well-discussed at this point, esp. since the thread was dug up after almost a year's worth of hibernation without anything of much value being added.

Based on reading through the thread, it looks like until GW release some other clarification, Vaul's Moon is just as likely to remain a mystery as the inner contents of the planet Mars. I think that about sums things up...

[Locked]