SM/CSM Leadership/Points

[Chaos_Smurf]

Ok this is a gripe of a freind of mine...
Normal CSM cost 14 points and have 9 ldship
Whereas SM cost 15 points and have 8 ldship

all he has to say is: WTF???? :wtf:

[Sir Guppy]

SM have "they shall know no fear" so they automatically rally. and for 15 points you can buy a sergeant who gives you LD9.

[Chaos_Smurf]

but for 13 points u get a asp champ witch cums with better stuff in the box and has more powers AND gives LD 10...

[Icarus]

Not having the ATSKNF rule does make quite a difference. It makes a chaos marine squad easier to destroy, whereas those pesky space marines always keep coming back for more.

Also given the extremely point-heavy nature of chaos armies, maybe GW wanted to make the basic troop unit a bit easier to field. Space Marines armies tend to have a lot more flexibility, whereas Chaos Marines are the only really variable unit in the army, everything else tends to have specific roles.

That's my view anyway, although im sure others may disagree. In the few games I've played against SM I havent noticed any imbalance. Ultimately there's nothing you can do unless they change the points value in the new codex. My advice to your friend is to grin and bear it, and instead focus on exploiting the weaknesses of a chaos army. :bandit:

[Chaos_Smurf]

hey i play chaos man
and i notice no imbalance but it drives my freind rite round the bend

[Sir Guppy]

heres another idea. the CSM codex is newer, and newer codexs tend to be better, however many people say the CSM is a lot better (trying to avoid using the word beardy here) so it could just be that. i wouldnt be suprised if in codex SM they bring the points down.

it could also be that things even themselves out. like CSM cant get speeders, crusaders, emp champions.

but this isnt the first time ive heard this complaint.

[Cashew]

Well CSM's have daemons and crap in them. GET OVER IT! IT'S NOT A QUESTION OF REALISM OR FAIRNESS! It's a question of balance!

[CommisarJagnsi]

ATSKNF is one of the best special abilites. That is why there is that "disparity".

[ThirdDanScoota]

Actually Cashew, fairness = balance, and balance = fairness. CSM Squads are actually more flexible, allowing almost the same options as Marines but can be equipped with bolt pistols and hand weapons making them a designated CC squad, which Marines cant (which sucks for Blood Angels Tactical Squads and Dark Angels Command Squads). However, these imbalances will most likely change and be smoothed out when the new Codex comes out, problem is, thats ages away, and meanwhile we have two armies which arent quite balanced, no matter how small it is.

[-_Phoenix_-]

More unit options doesn't make them unbalanced ThirdDan.

[Sir Guppy]

does. means the unit is more flexible. also if sm want to get dudes with ccw and pistols they have to take assault marines without jump packs, but thats on top of 2 troops choices, where as choas can just take them as troops saving points.

[ThirdDanScoota]

Phoenix, CSM is a MUCH newer Codex, and that kind of versitility gives them a decent advantage. How you ask? Well, their basic CSM Squads can be outfitted with bolters for ranged combat or CC weapons and bolt pistols, which Marines cant. This also means that my Dark Angels Command Squad (which is a Tactical Squad) isnt allowed close combat options. See something wrong? You have a HQ in it, which almost all are made entirely for CC, yet the unit its placed in allows no CC options.

Blood Angels Tactical Squads are unable to use their Furious Charge to maximum effect, while Chaos (for a few extra points per model) can give their basic units have not only CC weapons, but skills that augment them, allowing maximum effectiveness and efficiency, gaining the most out of the points spent on them.

If a Command Squad (besides a Blood Angels and Space Wolves one) can't be equipped with such CC weaponry, why in the HELL would you want your expensive 100+ point close combat oriented HQ sitting in it??? Why can't we have these logical options? Because the Codex is older. Thats it. Its older. Fair? Not really, because that means anyone using Chaos has this fully updated and improved list to choose from, as well as hundreds of variations using skills, daemonic gifts, Marks (and no, i dont expect to get daemonic gifts or marks) and basic equipment which most Loyalist Marines armies cant have, while all Space Marine players have a Codex which is like 6 years old (made in 1998).

[-_Phoenix_-]

I agree Command squads are sub-par for non-BA/SW players. Thats not what you said in your original post though is it ? :) CSM tac' squads taking CC weapons is neither here or there really. RE: BA tac' squads, furious charge is much helpful thanks very much, i've used it often enough :P

I do agree the CSM codex is much 'niftier'. Its not a balance problem per se, its a fun problem. As you say CSMs get all this cool stuff and nifty toys to play with, SMs get...Typhoon Land Speeders. Woot!!! An army list being versatile isn't in itself a major problem.

[ThirdDanScoota]

As it stands, Marines simply dont have anywhere near as many options as CSM, problem is its because the CSM Codex is much newer. Thing is, the more versitile CSM are, the more you notice it and the more it becomes clear that they're TOO versitile, as they are totally re-worked, while everyone else is stuck back in the stone-age. Being TOO versitile is a balance issue, and lets hope that when the new Codecies are released, that they take this into consideration. Chances are all of this will be dealt with in the new SM Codex though, so hopefully i shouldnt have anything to worry about...

[ionfish]

Point values don't translate across Codices. I have no idea why anyone would think they would.