The IG vs The Space Marines

[No Surrender]

No, I'm not asking who would win in a fight. My question has a few parts to it.

a) Which arm do you respect more?
b) Which arm is more vital to the survival of humanity?
c) Which arm would you rather be in ?
and
d) Which force has better fluff?

[Gerog]

Space marines all the way, I like power armour, rather than flesh to stop my bullets
Used to collect Ultramarines, so i guess im biased

[The Collector]

No, I'm not asking who would win in a fight. My question has a few parts to it.

a) Which arm do you respect more?
b) Which arm is more vital to the survival of humanity?
c) Which arm would you rather be in ?
and
d) Which force has better fluff?

a) Respect the IG. They do most of the fighting and dying.

b) IG. SM can't be everywhere.

c) SM. Last longer.

d) SM. GW has a SM bias.

[Thalasion]

A. Both equaly.

B. Guards

C.Guards,'cos marines are allways in combat and with guard you might be well away from any nasty stuff.

D. Marines.

[ThirdDanScoota]

A. I respect both actually, although i prefer the Marines.
B. They're BOTH equally important.
C & D are definately both Space Marines. The reasons are way too obvious to state.

[Johan 72109]

A. The guard. They are the ones who do all the dying.
B. Both are equally important. If the guard didn't exist humanity would be overwhelmed by hordes of aliens and heretics. If the marines didn't exist, then the same thing would happen.
C. Neither, space marines are changed into something that can't really be called human, and guard never see their home again (unless their PDF) and if they get into a warzone suffer horrendous casaulties most of the time.
D. Guard, just because they have so much more scope for creating your own fluff.

[ninjin]

a) Which arm do you respect more?
Imperial Guard, they do the most of the fighting and dying and fight every single battle and respond to almost every threat. Space Marines are noted to not respond to aid at some times

b) Which arm is more vital to the survival of humanity?
I am tempted to say both, but the Imperial Guard vastness makes is much more important to the survival of the human race

c) Which arm would you rather be in ?
Space Marines, obviously

d) Which force has better fluff?
Space Marines a have a lot of fluff, but the Imperial Guard as well as Imperial regiments have quite a lot as well

[Raistlinuk]

a) Like most people the Imperial guard because they do all the dying

b) guard again although space marines are vital, the guard are whats required to handel the majority of situations whereas space marines take care of the specialist missions.

c) hmm tough although you are much less impossing as a gaurdsman your also less likely to "go some place scary". Marines may be tough but boarding space hulks and tyranid hive ships isnt particually nice.

d) marines as they are GW's core race.

[Sir Guppy]

a) guard b) guard c) SM d) SM

[theBlind]

a) b)

Both equally. Both fight and die for mankind. Both would fail without the help of the other. (Indeed, if it were up to me, I would create regimental groups combining say a space marine company with a IG regiment, supported by an armor and artillery regiment. That should kick ass.)
The guard would suffer to many losses against the enemys elite troopers without the SMs killing them off. The marines can´t be everywhere and soon would be overwhelmed and without anything left to protect.

c) Which arm would you rather be in ?
Space Marines. I like warrior monks :)

d) Which force has better fluff?
If you consider Dan Abbnets Gaunts Ghosts series I´d say IG.

[Ramrod]

A) the Guard. they are normal men who manage to hold their own against the deadliest races of the galaxy, races which are (more often than not) bred for war. a Space Marine is tough and all, but he's got the cushy job.

B) both are equal. in the eyes of the emperor, they are all his children. in the big picture, the only thing a Guardsman or Marine can have credited to him is that he died to save his race.

C) the Imperial Guard. you don't need to be a superhuman to kill xenos. and dying as a Guardsman isn't so bad, because you're going to die soon. not many are "lucky" enough to grow into an old, bitter, cynical veteran. that would suck.

D) SM have more, but i loved Kill-Team. last chancers, here i come :D

[GrimzaksGoons]

a) Guard. Somehow not being bred, raised, and trained to it makes their sacrifice seem more noble.

b) Definitely both. Obviously SM alone could never protect the entire Imperium, but they do deal with threats whose natures put them beyond the ability of mere numbers and weight to destroy.

c) Marines. Yes, some guard may go their entire lives guarding a planet that is never attacked or simply lost in the bueracratic shuffle, but for the most part both branches are all about getting out there and dying for the Emperor and Imperium... and the Marines do so in considerably lower numbers, especially in the novels and fluff.

d) I've read a lot more Guards fluff, so I'm just going to say "guard" instead of trying to be objective.

[Rafi]

No, I'm not asking who would win in a fight. My question has a few parts to it.

a) Which arm do you respect more?


The guard, since it's more 'real' to me. Being a marine is too bizarre, but I could easily imagine being a guardsman so it's easier to relate to and respect.




b) Which arm is more vital to the survival of humanity?


The guard. They're the grunts who hold the human empire together.




c) Which arm would you rather be in ?



The guard, duh. Who wants to live life as a celibate warrior monk? I'd trade the extra two hundred years living in a stone cell polishing my bolter for some crazy futuristic sex and alcohol any day. ;)




and
d) Which force has better fluff?

Prolly the marines.

[Coey]

a)Both, charging into a enemy held position with nothing but a las-gun and your mates take's as much guts as bording a Space Hulk. Ish

b)Both, if the Marines weren't there the Imperium would be overwhelmed, and if the guard weren't there then the Imperium would be overwhelmed. But SM do usually kill alot more.

c)Marines, particulay Space Wolves, no praying for me!

d)IG just clips this one with Gaunts Ghosts, if King wasn't a lazy arse I'd say Marines.

[Drunken_Viking]

a) Which army do you respect more?

IG, they go into battle with nothing more than a lasgun and a flak jacket. SM at least have power armour.

b) Which army is more vital to the survival of humanity?

IG

c) Which army would you rather be in?

Neither, I'd rather be a CSM.

d) Which force has better fluff?

SM

I know you didn't ask, but if SM and IG fought each other, IG would win hands down. Only because of sheer numbers.

[Coey]

Wha? SM would win against Guard every time, read some SM novels+fluff, they would chew the 'Guard out.

A full company of Marines would be able to take on a IG regiment, no problemo.

[Ramrod]

but one million space marines cannot handle many billion guardsmen. army vs army, there is none more powerful than the guard. if the entire IG was concentrated on one single target... too bad thats impossible :(

[Drunken_Viking]

Well if you were to put one Space Marine on each of the Imperiums planets, then told them to kill all the IG. IG wins.

Concentrate them into 2 forces on some giant battlefield, on one side 1 million space marines and a bucnh of vehicles. On the other side billions upon billions of IG, with tons of tank support. IG wins again.

1 Space Marine vs 1 Imperial Guardsman. SM wins within seconds.

Well, although SM are real tough, against the kind of numbers the IG can pump out, SM would soon fall.

[theBlind]

Well, although SM are real tough, against the kind of numbers the IG can pump out, SM would soon fall.
Which kinda is the whole point of having _both_ organisations...

[Deathscythe61]

If the SM were produced in the numbers of the IG... then we'd have a lot more recruits for chaos!

[Gerog]

but one million space marines cannot handle many billion guardsmen. army vs army, there is none more powerful than the guard. if the entire IG was concentrated on one single target... too bad thats impossible :(


Bwah, Billion Guardsmen = More targets to shoot, less chance of missing :nana:

[No Surrender]

The numbers the IG can field are nothing short of mind boggling. Even if a SM chapter can beat an IG regiment there are only 1000 SM chapters while there are so many IG regiments even the Adeptus Terra can't count them all.

[Ramrod]

plus, the regiments can be replenished very fast by drawing tithes from PDFs. chapters take hundreds of years to bring back up to full strength.

[Zatrais]

You can't have a battle with all of the IG against all of the SM's cause there aint a planet big enough to fit all of the IG =P

Seriously, the IG would beat the crap out of the SM's. Don't even think there would be much of a contest.

Just a quick math to show the forces (mind you, this number will most likely be way way way too low for the total IG) the SM's would have to fight from just 1 founding of IG regiments.

Theres atleast one regiment from every imperial world, the hive planets obiously field alot more than 1. But for simplicity lets say each world fields 1.

A regiment waries from 2000 to 6000 in size but lets say they average at 3000 in size.

The empire is said to have a million worlds in some places and more in others, lets stick to 1 million for simplicity.

So 1 mill times 3000 = 3 000 000 000.
The SM's force = 1 000 000.

Thats 3000 to 1 odds using horribly innacute and way too low numbers of troops the IG would get from 1 founding and it dosn't even acount for present active IG's.

I doubt 1 marine is worth 3000 IG's. I really don't see how the SM's could win.

[ThirdDanScoota]

Theres one thing you're all missing though, and that is that the basic Space Marine is far more intelligent and tactical than any I.G Commander (other than the legendary ones probably, but cant be sure), as well as generally being an experienced veteran in comparison. They can pump out awesomely superior tactics, and that MAY give them the upper hand, it really depends on the terrain, and about a million other factors. Also, the I.G arent the only ones with big tanks you know ;), although they do have more of them.

EDIT: Notice how this has sot of turned into a "Australian SAS vs Chinese Army" thread?

[Lord Dante]

Its gonna come down to tactics. the marines are bloody cunning and resilent. they can hide in places around the galaxy the IG would dare tread.

you only have to look at how thinly spread the imperiums forces are at the cadian gate to realise the limited numbers of the chaos SM make hard work for the loyal gaurdsmen.

When Abaddon does one of his lil black crusades all hell breaks lose and thats with limited numbers. admitedly he has a planet destroying space shit which is usefull.

Still i call it in favour of the IG - mainly because they have 3000-1 advantage and acces to the imperial fleet and the titan legions...

[ThirdDanScoota]

The Talisman Of Vaul if i remember correctly (well, what the Eldar call it). Unfortunately though, the Space Marines may be cunning, but its their tactical inflexibility, or at least by certain Chapters that COULD make them predictable. You're wondering, "whats this fool talking about?!!", what i mean is, i'm certain the Ultramarines and several other, if not most Chapters follow a very strict way of engagement, from deployment to execution, and i know that one of the Chapters turned to Chaos after battling who i'm certain were the Ultramarines, attempting to prove to them that their inflexible way of combat can be easily predicted when you do the SAME THING over and over and over again, battle after battle. Unfortunately, the Ultramarines (i'm certain it was them..) suffered MASSIVE losses, but the Ultramarines Chapter Master (i'm certain it was Chapter Master... Yes, i say that alot when i'm unsure) killed his opposite number.

Anyone want to correct me/add anything?

[Lord Dante]

erm not sure - if u read the 'ultramarine' novel you will find they are very cunning.

I dont think they are inept at how they fight they just fight by a code which is proved over thousands of years.

But either way they are cunning as hell. breaching defences and then following the guide lines on fighting. tactically they are sound and ready for anything.

[MobiusPrime]

I play IG, and one thing I notice when I face off against SM (which is very often, as about 70% of 40K players play some flavor of SM), I find that most observers expect me to lose because I am IG.

If I win however, it's not because I played the game well, and my tactical decisions worked, it's because the SM player flubbed up and blew it.

Has anyone else had these kinds of attitudes directed to your IG armies?

[Rafi]

Has anyone else had these kinds of attitudes directed to your IG armies?

That is the typical attitude of most players playing marine-like (T4, 3+ save) army against an army without saving throws. Trust me, I play orks. ;)

'I dunno how I lost, I killed like 60 of his dudes...' :D

[Johan 72109]

Theres one thing you're all missing though, and that is that the basic Space Marine is far more intelligent and tactical than any I.G Commander (other than the legendary ones probably, but cant be sure), as well as generally being an experienced veteran in comparison. They can pump out awesomely superior tactics, and that MAY give them the upper hand, it really depends on the terrain, and about a million other factors. Also, the I.G arent the only ones with big tanks you know ;), although they do have more of them.

EDIT: Notice how this has sot of turned into a "Australian SAS vs Chinese Army" thread?
Err... the I.G have Baneblades, Shadowswords and the incredibly adaptable Leman Russ for their heavy and super-heavy tanks. The marines have the Land Raider. And he I.G have more tanks. Space Marines would be butchered in a tank battle.
Also, one nit-pick about the fact that there are only 1 million marines in the galaxy. Each chapter has thousands of support staff, some of which are excellent fighters. However, the marines would still be so insanely outnumbered they'd get absolutely massacred. No contest.

[Coey]

The SM would always win against the IG.

Do the IG have their own space fleets? no.

Would IG stand a chance in CC?, no.

Do IG have a shitload of tanks? yes.

Can a single SM rip off the hatch and throw some 'nades down? yes.

Are SM vastly outnumbered? yes.

Are SM always vastly outnumbered? yes.

Do IG have armour capable of withstanding a bolter shell? no.

Are most of the IG generals bumbling fools? yes.

Are most of the SM chapter masters bumbling fools? hell no.

Would Basilisk,Baneblade and Shadowsword positions be able to withstand a SM raid? no.

Would the SM be stupid enough to fight a pitched battle in the open? no.

[Johan 72109]

The IG have the Imperial Navy that would side with them in a conflict. As I said, a massacre.

[Coey]

No they don't. This is IG vs SM, no-one else.

[Imperial marine]

I play IG, and one thing I notice when I face off against SM (which is very often, as about 70% of 40K players play some flavor of SM), I find that most observers expect me to lose because I am IG.

If I win however, it's not because I played the game well, and my tactical decisions worked, it's because the SM player flubbed up and blew it.

Has anyone else had these kinds of attitudes directed to your IG armies?
well when i get my IG armour divison army list [in WD 296 UK] HQ leman russ of any varient elites tanks/stormtroopers troops squad of 2 tanks fast attack sentinals/armoured ompanies heavy suport bassilisk/griffon
lets see a SM army beat that

[squat22]

u see in your coment of who would win i would say ur wrong yes more numbers but the sheers force that the space marines would throw back at the ig is just silly the space wolves for instance there all nuts the blood angles as well they suffer from the red rage death marines hello ig would lose
:smash:

thought for u if the emperor withholds life above all else why are 200 pyscars sacrefised to him a day think could be hours in there :)

[Dimension]

IG would always win vs marines because the marines don't have enough bullets.

[theBlind]

now THATS an argument ;)

[Coey]

IG would always win vs marines because the marines don't have enough bullets.

Chainswords, Powerswords, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, ahhh the list goes ever on.

[Zatrais]

Chainswords, Powerswords, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, ahhh the list goes ever on.

You do know that the IG can deploy enough basic infantry guys to cover entire systems with men at arms standing shoulder to shoulder.

Thats just men at arms, it dosn't even begin to cover armour or fire support teams.

How are 1 million SM sposed to kill that?

[ThirdDanScoota]

Err... the I.G have Baneblades, Shadowswords and the incredibly adaptable Leman Russ for their heavy and super-heavy tanks. The marines have the Land Raider. And he I.G have more tanks. Space Marines would be butchered in a tank battle.
Also, one nit-pick about the fact that there are only 1 million marines in the galaxy. Each chapter has thousands of support staff, some of which are excellent fighters. However, the marines would still be so insanely outnumbered they'd get absolutely massacred. No contest.

Vehicles dont have to be "Super Heavy" to be effective, now do they? To the Marines, "Super Heavy" means "Super Large target waiting to get its ass blown off".

Many of you are suggesting that the Marines would tackle a mission like so: "Lets stand out in the open so we can absorb alot of Battle Cannon, Basilisk, other heavy weapon and lasfire". Yes, i'm sure the most intelligent warriors in the Imperium will stand there and say "look, its raining", and expose themselves to such a barrage.

How about the Marines just drop a Virus Bomb or Lance Strike the planet before they go down there? I'd like to see you Guard survive that.

[Ramrod]

:lol: @ lance strike. TDS owns all us IG players. there really is nothing the IG could muster that could survive that, even titan legions (which actually guys, are not IG controlled).

i will argue death korps and chem-dogs would survive a virus bomb. but only the initial strike. rebreathers have to have their filters changed, after all.

[theshadowduke]

Vehicles dont have to be "Super Heavy" to be effective, now do they? To the Marines, "Super Heavy" means "Super Large target waiting to get its ass blown off".

Many of you are suggesting that the Marines would tackle a mission like so: "Lets stand out in the open so we can absorb alot of Battle Cannon, Basilisk, other heavy weapon and lasfire". Yes, i'm sure the most intelligent warriors in the Imperium will stand there and say "look, its raining", and expose themselves to such a barrage.

How about the Marines just drop a Virus Bomb or Lance Strike the planet before they go down there? I'd like to see you Guard survive that.

Ahhh, the Inquision pwns all though.

"Sir the Adeptus Astartes just virus bombed a loyal planet..."
"This is the warrent for exterminatus on that chapters home worlds"

[theBlind]

Look, guys, can we get away from the "my army can beat your army to crap" thing?

Can the IG defeat the SMs in a fight? How knows.

What is much more important: The Imperial Guard AS WELL AS the Space Marine chpters form a vital cornerstone of the imperial defence (the others being the Navy and the Inquisition) NEITHER of those forces could survive alone.

The guard would suffer to many casualties from the enemys elite warriors (eg CSM) to hold of the enemys _other_ warriors afterwards as well. Remember they are already not out for a walk in the park but have to fight to survive. But they can provide the numbers to garrison the many planets that are not important enough to warrant any other form of defence but still form a big part of the imperial economy, if only for raw materials.

The Space Marines are not numerous enough to do the job on their own. Hundreds of Imperial planets would burn while they had to choose one to defend. But they can cut the heart out of enemy advances, break fortresses that would give the IG inacceptable losses or stage strike raids deep into enemy territory to disturb the enemy supply chain.

The Navy does not have the manpower to take and hold a planet. Sure they can bomb it to hell and back, but what producition capacity do you expect to be there afterwards? Where should all the new recruits come from? But they are needed to fight for space superiority, transport and escort regiments to their warzones, protect the economy from enemy raids, etc.

The Inquisition had neither the manpower nor the inclination to fight the open wars that have to be fought. Instead, they are the only ones who have the expertise to find and root out heretics and rouge/untrained psykers. And remember that a single psyker or a single cabal of heretics can spell the doom of an entire planet by allowing deamons onto the normal plane of existance.

They are all needed. None of them can be spared.

[ThirdDanScoota]

We know that. But its interesting how many people are thinking of this battle as two huge walls of troops and tanks, on one side being the I.G, and the other being the SM, with no terrain or tactics. Sorry guys, but thats NOT how the Marines wage war, and thats NOT how real battles are done in the 40k universe, or here for that matter (these days).

[Zatrais]

We know that. But its interesting how many people are thinking of this battle as two huge walls of troops and tanks, on one side being the I.G, and the other being the SM, with no terrain or tactics. Sorry guys, but thats NOT how the Marines wage war, and thats NOT how real battles are done in the 40k universe, or here for that matter (these days).

Thats an impossible scenario, the IG can't fit on just 1 planet =P

I think the SM supporters don't realise the sheer weight of numbers the IG has. its incomprehendable.

So what if the SM's viral bomb a few million troops, barely noticeable to the IG.

[ThirdDanScoota]

For one their morale would drop drastically. Think of it this way, they have more than a single viral bomb, and would you want to die that way? Then their Lance Strike start raining down.

[Zatrais]

For one their morale would drop drastically. Think of it this way, they have more than a single viral bomb, and would you want to die that way? Then their Lance Strike start raining down.

Commisars sort that out, or the local commander can get more from the departomento monitorum (the guys in charge of supplying and moving the IG).

The IG always win wars with attricion, simply cause they're expenadle and have a virtual limitless supply of troops.

They may lose a battle but they won't lose the war hehe.

Beeing rank and file in the IG is beeing another faceless number of billions upon billions of other IGs.

[Coey]

ThirdDanScoota:You are my hero. I love you.

Let's say the whole galaxy is at war, Marine vs IG everywhere, all over the galaxy, lets look at It from the IG’s position: Losing a million men or so a day against 10000 Marines, inflicting only 1000 casualties, 75% will be live and kicking in a few hours, the rest might take a day to get back to the action. The arty positions are being knocked out by raids that no IG can withstand. Trenches are frequently breached and whole divisions are being slaughtered in the space of a few hours. Fighting an enemy that won’t fight the way you want ‘em to fight. Low morale, officers and commissars are being picked off by snipers. Now imagine this happening every day, all across the galaxy.

No Titans coming help.

Certainly no hope of some ‘Marines coming to bolster the campaign.

Air Support non-existent.

Doesn’t sound good, does it?

[Brother Wolf]

And what about the IG snipers taking out SM troops? What about the IG Stormtroopers doing some Deep Strikes and Infiltration raids of their own. Given the sheer volume of IG troops available, I would have to say that there are probably stil twice as many Stormtroopers as there are SM's. NOt to say that ST's are their equals, but they do have some significant benefits. And what about the Ogryn troopers?

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a hard fight, but I'm of the opinion that the sheer volume of IG troopers on the ground combined with the size of their space-borne navy would place winning a war of attrition significantly in the IG's favor. Snipers popping Apothacaries so they can't retrieve the geneseed, Battleships keeping SM's Orbital Strikes at bay, the list is endless...

[Coey]

Storm Troopers aren't the equal to the SM, they'd teleport in and it would be like

DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA
"Goodbye, silly stormies"

And incase you hadn't noticed, the IG have no space fleets.

IG snipers will be easilly spotted, only a Vindicare assasin would be able to sneak into position. No matter how good that sniper is he will only have one shot max before bolters are bought to bear, and the bullet probably won't even kill the 'Marine.

Ogryn troopers are massive, SM hardly ever miss.

[MobiusPrime]

I don't think this subject is worth arguing. A SM fan will never see past his S4, T4 Sv 3 to say anyone has a chance at winning. Even on the global scales of all the IG vs all the SM Chapters. What if we replaced IG with Orks?

[Coey]

Obviuosly if the orks massed in those numbers no-one would stand a chance, no-one.

And IG supporters seem to think SM fight wars of attrition, news flash, SM don't. Got that?

[Zatrais]

Obviuosly if the orks massed in those numbers no-one would stand a chance, no-one.

And IG supporters seem to think SM fight wars of attrition, news flash, SM don't. Got that?

Ofocurse they don't, the SM's can just blink around the entire empires millions of worlds and virus bomb all the IG's in the blink of an eye. Using their limited numbers of navigators and smaller fast strike warships to always maintain the initiative while massive fleets of the departomento monitorum stands by idle not transporting the IG...

Theres just no way billions of men, tanks, artillery and experienced commanders can stand against a million SM's.

btw, that was sarcasm.

[theBlind]

Well, disregarding my own advice, but what the heck, just for the fun of it.

I'd like to adress a point the IG fraction brings up, namely massing "a billion" troopers on one planet.
Do you have any idea how much that kinda of army eats? OR drinks? That's a supply nightmare. A real one.
And not to mention the fact that the stuff you put in on top comes out somewhere. Before you'll know, you'll have an Emperor forsaken pile of crap. Thats when the diseases start to spread. Happy camping :D

[Coey]

So we are agreed? SM will win.

[No Surrender]

I'd have to disagree there. Think about it this way, there are is less than 1 marine for every imperial planet. Now, just about every Imperial planet can muster up atleast 1 division worth of troops. If we go by that then the IG can affore to loose more than 1 division for every marine killed.

[ThirdDanScoota]

[QUOTE=Coey]ThirdDanScoota:You are my hero. I love you.[QUOTE]

Umm.. Thanks, i think:). Like i said in an earlier post, way too many people are thinking about this battle as 2 huge walls of troops slugging it out at range. Nobody's taking into consideration terrain, or the fact that SMs have Terminators that can DeepStrike right into their front lines. Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods anyone? Also, the "experienced" I.G Commanders may be many in comparison, but stand no chance against a SM Force Commander, Librarian, or Chaplain whether its in combat or regarding tactics. When you think about it, its alot easier to hide 1million SMs than several BILLION I.G, and are also a much smaller target to hit (especially with I.G accuracy). There are more, unforseen factors too that nodody's taking into consideration. Weather?

[No Surrender]

IG commanders not a match for SM FCs? If that's the case then how come Lord Solar Mancharius is known as the greatest commander of recent (40k) history?

And let's not forget that the IG have so much artillery they can just plaster most of the planet from a distance.

[Coey]

Artilley is useless, as TDS and I have said, any fixed position that the SM can (and will) consider a target is already a smoking pile of plasteel and body parts, it just doesn't know it yet.

Terminators DS'ing, Dreadnaughts DP'ing, etc.

And the fact that ceramite can witstand many many full powered laser bolts before it will even crack has been left out of consideration. And when a bolt hits the Marine it's only going to make him mad.

Weather:Not a problem for 'Marines, for IG it will affect them in some way, i.e. too hot:exhaustion etc etc.

Now, can we agree yet? SM would win.

Plus how the fuck can the IG get anywhere?

[Zatrais]

Artilley is useless, as TDS and I have said, any fixed position that the SM can (and will) consider a target is already a smoking pile of plasteel and body parts, it just doesn't know it yet.

Terminators DS'ing, Dreadnaughts DP'ing, etc.

And the fact that ceramite can witstand many many full powered laser bolts before it will even crack has been left out of consideration. And when a bolt hits the Marine it's only going to make him mad.

Weather:Not a problem for 'Marines, for IG it will affect them in some way, i.e. too hot:exhaustion etc etc.

Now, can we agree yet? SM would win.

Plus how the fuck can the IG get anywhere?

Departomento monitorum, what you think the navy would stop transporting them just cause they're fighting the SM's?

Then again, the SM's are unstopable gods of the battlefield and the IG are incompetent retards to you.

edit: Theres a reason for why the IG's don't have their own transports by ancient decree, they're considered too powerfull and vital to the empire to be allowed to transport themselfs around the empire. Imagen what would happen if the upper echelons of the IG got corupted and they could move themself.

[Coey]

Departomento monitorum, what you think the navy would stop transporting them just cause they're fighting the SM's? Well it was a rhetorical question, but yes

Then again, the SM's are unstopable gods of the battlefield and the IG are incompetent retards to you. Not me, and SM aren't unstoppable gods, but against IG they are

edit: Theres a reason for why the IG's don't have their own transports by ancient decree, they're considered too powerfull and vital to the empire to be allowed to transport themselfs around the empire. Imagen what would happen if the upper echelons of the IG got corupted and they could move themself. I am aware of this



Look, can we drop it now? It's clear IG will lose.

[Zatrais]

Look, can we drop it now? It's clear IG will lose.

Nope, you just contradicted yourself.

You're aware that the IG is too powerfull to let itself move but you're all for letting the SM have their own fleet when you think they're vastly superior to all of the IG... heh.

There is no way the IG would ever lose a war against a million men super human or not, unless you severly artificialy handicap them by saying the navy won't move them, even tho it won't be the first time the IG has fought the SM's. Hell i doubt the SM's would have enough manpower to kill the IG even then.

One million men is nothing, theres 4-5+ times that number just living in say New York.

[Coey]

Every SM chapter has enough ships to carry them where ever they need to go, they're called Battle Barges.

I agree, 1 million means nothing, oh wait, scrap that. We're talking about SPACE MARINES here, the super humans. The power armoured last line.

All right, let's say the Navy can move them, but they do no fighting whatsoever, what then? Do you expect a war of attrition? two lines of trenches firing at each other? think again buddy. More like an opposed landing, think Omaha x400000000000000000. Bolters cutting through IG like butter. When the SM forces at the landing zones run out of ammo they charge forward, CC weapons cleaving a path through the ranks and ranks of IG, Landraiders and Preds are destroying tanks before they even touch the ground. And the last SM alive self-detonates his power-pack causing a nuclear explosion.

Now IG only usually make one big landing when they land onto a planet, and that will probably take up about 300 ‘marines with support to oppose. Now all you have to worry about are the other 700.

The IG forces set up a defensive perimeter, Termie’s a Deep Striking causing a shit-load of havoc within the camp while the regiments slowly move out, getting ambushed every five minutes by bikers and tac/devestator marines.

Dreadnaughts are emerging seemingly out of no-where to go on suicidal runs, auto-cannons blazing, ripping men apart.

Officers and Commissars are being picked off by unseen snipers.

Artillery positions are being destroyed by DS'ing temies.

High command can’t identify the SM’s base.

Nowhere to fight a big decisive battle that the IG would win.

Morale non-existent.

Plus Marines are always out-numbered, they've got plenty expeience in fighting off muhc larger forces.

Imagine that happening every time an IG force lands, all over the galaxy.

[Zatrais]

2 lines of attricion, nah. But the SM's would have to secure their own manufacturing sites and such in order to get munitons etc. Thats what the IG would probably do, cut off their supplies and grind them down.

You know theres just a small and limited amount of terminators that can teleport in and out of battle right, and they rarely do so out of fear of malfuntion.. teleporting ain't secure.

Just how the hell are 1000 marines supposed to face down a full fledge IG invation? That usually involves millions of men and 50 000 / 60 000 tanks + artillery and walker support. The entire sky would be black with dropships. Rember the IG arn't incompetent, they are the top 10% of a planets defensive force. Highly trained and well equipted.

besides "quantity has a quality all in its own"

Sooner or later the IG would win, simply cause the SM's won't have any more men to send.

And yeah, the SM are used to beeing outnumbered, because thats what their job decription is.. striking behind enemy lines and such. The SM's are never used to taking and holding entire planets, they've simply don't have the needed manpower.

Sure the SM's are good fighters but theres just no way the IG would lose to a million of pretty much anything, short of a god, c'tans etc hehe.

[Dimension]

coey, last line? god, for a fanboy you sure don't know too much about the marines. the marines are all about special and covert operations, spearheads, and preemptive strikes.

marines can't fight a war of attrition. and as soon as the enemies have reached a critical mass, there simply is no room for tactical thinking. with the numbers the IG have, they can surround any given number of space marines, and just tolerate horrible losses, all the while moving closer, giving the marines less room to maneuver. marines aren't intended to fight numbers. they're supposed to achieve certain goals, that only a small elite group can fulfill, such as sneak in somewhere and blow up some crucial defense.

also, bolters cutting through IG like through butter? you must be somehow completely oblivious to the fact that there are probably 5 times as many leman russ battle tanks out there than marines. not to mention those countless sentinels, all the basilisks, chimera variants, griffons etc etc. oh, did we get to superheavies yet? don't think we did. don't think a landraider can stand up to those either. and again, they're probably a deal more numerous than landraiders.

[Coey]

Hmmmm, has anyone heard of Macragge? Armagedeon?

Marines can and do fight in big battles, their sole purpose is not being a covert unit, that's just part of the job. A job at which they are vey good at.

And yes, bolters do cut though your standard guardsman like butter, tanks have nothing to do with that fact. There are wondefull things called Missiles to deal with them, plus Hellfire Dreads, Landraiders, Predators all firing into the lovely tightly packed landing bays, oh the joy!

And as I've said the Marines won't fight a war of attrition, so I'm not sure what this is about:

marines can't fight a war of attrition. and as soon as the enemies have reached a critical mass, there simply is no room for tactical thinking. with the numbers the IG have, they can surround any given number of space marines, and just tolerate horrible losses, all the while moving closer, giving the marines less room to maneuver. marines aren't intended to fight numbers. they're supposed to achieve certain goals, that only a small elite group can fulfill, such as sneak in somewhere and blow up some crucial defense.

Tactical thinking? I suppose a Chainsword is pretty tactical if your're good with it.

SM would need to be stupid enough to settle in one place, which, as you should know, won't happen.

The commanders will tolerate heavy losses, but what about your standard guardsman?

No, more like giving them more room maneuver, stretching your supply lines very thin, leaving them vulnerable.

Eventually the IG would be crippled as a fighting force, as Marines will only fight on their own terms, and against the massed ranks of the IG they can easilly out-flank a infantry column and cut it to pieces, then retreat, and another few marines will do the same in another place, etc etc.

And who said the Marines would take the whole planet?, their fighting for their lives nothing else.

[theBlind]

Well, much depends on where the marines are based. If they are land-based, then they have the big problem of IG counter-attacks. The IG would have a target that they can bring their strenght to bear against.
And don't give me opposed landing, a planet (every planet) is a _huge_ chunk of land. There can be more than one landing site.

The guard army's strength comes form four weapon types: infantry, tanks, artillery and air support. Let's take a look:

The marines simply can't deal with the guards tanks when they are deployed. A single chapter has (following Index Astardes) a few Dreadnaughts for every fighting company. So lets say 4-5 each, that means a total of maybe 80 Dreads to field. While a Dread has big advantages over a full blown tank in tactical manouvering and ability to move through rough terrain (two points the marines need for their kind of fight) the Dread does not have an advantage over a tank in regards of armor or firepower where the Dread is at best equal.
So while a Dread is better suited for lightning raids, it is not so for an open battle.

Space marine tanks are the equivalent of IG tanks. But the guard has numbers on their side.

Guard infantry is severely outclassed by Space Marines. No doubt there. But since the guard tanks can decide on open battle, the infantry can use combined arms tactics and still survive.

Guard artillery is very usefull when assaulting a fixed SM position. But the fact remains that those artillery positions are subject to raids which is the very kind of war where the Marines have a tremendeous upper hand. Smaller field artillery still stands.

Of air power, I simply do not have enough info to really decide. But all aircraft need an airstrip to refuel and rearm. That strip is subject to raids just the same as artillery.

So, if the marines have to defend a position, they will loose. That does not take into account orbital bombardement because the guard simply is not prepared for that kind of war. But since we already assumed that they still have transport, I think we must also assume that they have orbital cover. If not, there is no fight. The marine ships would simply annihilate all incoming troop transports or, failing that the dropships or failing even that bombard the landing sites. Game over.

Now, let's take a look at space-based marine chapters (like the Black Templars) Since they have the distinct advantage of only having to defend against infantry, they would win their defensive battles (boarding actions against the marine ships), keep the initiative and sooner or later annihilate any guard forces because they can dictate the way that war is waged. Numbes don't help anything here, ask anyone who ever storm-assaulted a machine gun nest. If you can find someone who survived...

So, in the end it comes down to warfare and tanks. Open battles are the marines bane while not having a target to strike at is the Guards.

[Zatrais]

They don't do major engagements alone..

Macragge: Titan legions, arriving ships from the ultramar system and the imperial navy from Bakka. The Tempust fleet came and saved them from beeing completely overrun. Besides, macragge wasn't even a campaign, just a battle.

Armaggeddon: Saved in large parts due to Commisar Yarrik, an IG guy.. hehe. Unless you're talking about the first war of armageddon, that one was one by the combined weight of the IG, the space wolf chapter and the Grey knights as they're the only blokes that can kill a demon prince reliably.

The standard guardsman tolerates the losses, he has no choice. He can either fight and have a small chance of living another day or be excecuted by the IG's. Morale really ain't a problem hehe.

You're honnestly beliving 1 million guys can pack enough firepower to actually eliminate billions upon billions of highly trained individuals supported by the BIGGEST tanks and artillery pieces that the imperium can bring around.. Somehow i'd put my money on the baneblade killing a dread, cause its a damn titan killer.

Dosn't matter how many IG's you kill, because unless you viral bomb every damn hiveworld and largely populated world in the imperium the IG has an never ending source of men.

[ThirdDanScoota]

"Dosn't matter how many IG's you kill, because unless you viral bomb every damn hiveworld and largely populated world in the imperium the IG has an never ending source of men."

So you're saying that if you kill 1million I.G, they'll simply and magically train up another million to replace them? I think not. We're talking about a single battle here, and so that fact you just pointed out has no relevance. Also, we ARE assuming that both forces are using all of their resources, meaning its game over before it even starts thanks to Lance Strikes and Viral Bombs. You think they would say "Na, lets not use one of our most potent weapons".

[Zatrais]

"Dosn't matter how many IG's you kill, because unless you viral bomb every damn hiveworld and largely populated world in the imperium the IG has an never ending source of men."

So you're saying that if you kill 1million I.G, they'll simply and magically train up another million to replace them? I think not. We're talking about a single battle here, and so that fact you just pointed out has no relevance. Also, we ARE assuming that both forces are using all of their resources, meaning its game over before it even starts thanks to Lance Strikes and Viral Bombs. You think they would say "Na, lets not use one of our most potent weapons".

Uhm, no we're talking about the SM against the IG on a grand scale. A single battle is a whole other ballgame.

A IG commander woulnd't be too hard pressed to requisition another million guardsmen from the departomento minitorum, seeing as its just roughly 300 foundings.

Somehow i don't think the SM's can just run around viral bombing every single world the IG is on, nice way to getting the entire imperium after you.

[Farseer]

I just like to mention, look into our history.

You could put this into the arguement

Soviet Union (Imperial Guard) Vs Nazi Germany (Space Marines) WW2

This war showed conscripts can beat the battle hardened soldier.

Now lets look into this:

The Imperial Guard will have access to factories, munitions and supplies while space marines will be isolated and if it is not a war of attrition, it means they will be on the run and hiding all the time and commit forces for raiding like the Dark Eldar. Space Marines won't be able to afford to take over planets since it will be extremely costly as well.

[Coey]

The IG like to fight big full-scale battles, the Marines know that it would be suicide to fight a big-full scale battle against the IG.

Ambushes, lovlely lightning fast ambushes, that's how the SM will win.

All your tanks can't do shit in a hive, as one Marine alone can rip off the hatch and throw some nades down, and get the fuck outta there before anyone knows whats going on, leaving the city before the all the charges go off.

All your tanks can't do shit agaisnt an enemy who never stops, has no fixed positions, won't fight the way your trained to fight.

Artillery, same as above.

Sentinels are flimsy at best.


It would be a world wide Vietnam, and the IG couldn't do a thing about it.


EDIT:FFS! The SM are defending! the IG are attackng! The Sm aren;t trying to take ove a whole planet, ther'ye fighting the IG, plain and simple.

And that was a very bad comparison, Marines are in no way like the Wermacht/SS, for starters they're supehumans, encased in Power Armour, faster, smarter,stronger,tougher than any IG.

[Zatrais]

The IG like to fight big full-scale battles, the Marines know that it would be suicide to fight a big-full scale battle against the IG.

Ambushes, lovlely lightning fast ambushes, that's how the SM will win.

All your tanks can't do shit in a hive, as one Marine alone can rip off the hatch and throw some nades down, and get the fuck outta there before anyone knows whats going on, leaving the city before the all the charges go off.

All your tanks can't do shit agaisnt an enemy who never stops, has no fixed positions, won't fight the way your trained to fight.

Artillery, same as above.

Sentinels are flimsy at best.

It would be a world wide Vietnam, and the IG couldn't do a thing about it.


So let me get this right, you're saying the SM would win via guerilla tactics and kill all the IG's one at a time?

Theres several races trying to eliminate the IG, and you're saying the SM would do it just by guerilla warfare?

[Aikanaro]

Would the Space Marine force include the Legion of the Damned or the Grey Knights? Because those two forces could massacre a vast number of enemies by *themselves*.

[Farseer]

If the space marines defend, then they're doomed. The IG hold planets so if the space marines need to attack the IG at all then they need to attack planets, plain and simple. Also the SM using guerilla tactics will achieve nothing in millions of years.

The idea was that Conscripts can defeat a well trained, battle hardened, extremely loyal force with sheer numbers.

But anyway this arguement is ridiculous. Both armies need each other and will support each other for the good of humanity. It sounds so similar to a US military argument with Army vs Marines. They both need each other because both serve a purpose for Imperium/USA.

[Coey]

This is Space Marnes we're talking about, they won't take them out one at a time, try 1,000, and if ther'ye lucky 10,000.

Yes, Guerilla Warfare is the only way they can win, as open battle is suicide.

And who said anyting about killing EVERY last IG? one of the biggest factors here is morale, SM don't really have any morale, as IG ain't scary compared to some of the things most Maines have seen, but your standard Guardsman, well the pressure of fighting an enemy like the SM, never knowing when you'll be ambushed, having no chance of actually fightng back properly, seeing your freinds blown apart by a 7 foot walking wall of ceramite is going to make you question the whole idea of being an IG.

A note about the Officers and Commissars, IG are going to need a lot of em, they will be the first to die.

[Farseer]

But who says the IG are not capable of using effective ambushes on the space marines? Guerillas can also be ambushed. All the IG need to do is try to lure the SPace marines into one location and wham, send all of their tanks artillary to encircle them and bye bye marines.

[Coey]

Your're severly underestimating the Marines.

Nothing is worse than a nuclear explosion destroying a shotload of tanks, is there?

[Dimension]

you still don't get it. IG have the numbers to surround marines. there are no flanks. the marines can raid, but they are in fact surrounded by IG, crawling, covereing every foot that is outside marine weapon range. the might just for the fun of it barrage the place so there are no trees left. no more guerilla tactics unless they're from underground. and sooner or later those tunnels will be discovered, at the latest when the marines strike through them. once they're inside the tunnels, they'll just flood them with water, blow em up, whatever.

besides, IG are not untrained conscripts. they are well-trained soldiers, akin to modern forces, possibly better. when you have uncountable planets, there is no point taking but the best to be in your armed forces.

nuclear weapons? don't you think IG might detect the warhead? massed IG has enough firepower to take it down. besides, its not like servo armor saves you from being irradiated, so the marines wouldn't use nukes to fight as soon as the IG is near enough. and since IG has enough numbers to land right on top of them, the case is closed.

a man will never win against the tide. he can be the most intelligent man in the world, but if you drop him in the ocean he will get wet, and drown in time.

[Coey]

There is no warhead, the Marines backpack, last man alive blows himself up.

And yes a Marine would do that, he's got nothing else to fight for, and surrendering is not even in his vocabulary.

[Dimension]

you just won my argument for me. thank you =)

[Jack Soloman]

A) Hard to say. Space Marines are by far the more valient warriors, but the guard do have to face almost certain death. They're outclassed by almost everything out there.

B) Imperial Guard. No Space Marines and some wars will drag on far longer. No IG and the Imperium simply won't have the manpower to defend itself.

C) Guard. Sure, life would be short, horrible and painful, but at least I'd still be human.

D) Although I was a guard player some years ago, I'd have to go with SM here. Then again, that may be because I'm really into DoW right now. :p

[Coey]

Dimension, wtf? LAST MAN ALIVE, this is a ten man tac squad we're talking about here, not the whole fucking chapter.

And since the IG are so nicely packed together just imagine what a nuclear blast could do.

[ThirdDanScoota]

To be honest, this thread has gone out of control entirely. Everybody's talkin about different things. I'm pulling out of this one, before I get drowned.

[No Surrender]

Coey: Can a space marine take down a guardsman? Definatly. 5 Guardsmen? Probably. A Squad, Sure, why not? Maybe even a platoon. BUT can a Space Marine take down a Division of Guard? No. Those are the kinds of numbers you're dealing with here. A million is loose change when the IG probably number in the hundreds of billions.

As for the IG surrounding the Marines. Imagine a circle of men, shoulder to shoulder, 500 men deep closing in on you. No matter how super human you are you're not going to be able to get through all those guardsmen. After all, if you go by volume, 2 or 3 divisions of guard for a single marine is a good trade.

[CobrasTwo]

"Yes, Guerilla Warfare is the only way they can win, as open battle is suicide."

Yeah, Guerilla warfare would probably allow them to take a heavy toll on the guard forces.. but..

First off, like the others said, I still don't see how you think that 3000 Guardsmen could be taken down by a single marine in enough time to avoid replacements.. i.e., it would take him so long to kill that many that by that time the replacements mentioned earlier would arrive, and the SM, completely out of ammo, would now have to try to repeat the performance...

That there *IS* a war of attrition.. the SMs could try to avoid it, but assuming the Guardsmen had any type of interstellar transport at all available, I don't think they'd be able to.

Also.. on the topic of Guerilla warfare.. or at least, your reference to the Vietnam style warfare (especially vs the US),

1) the Guerillas (namely the NVA/VC) took way more casualties than the US

2) the US did not use tactics that they could have used, and would most likely have won them the war they never actually called a war, i.e., they didn't invade North Vietnam, and thereby wipe out the supply routes.. unless the Guardsmen were complete fools, they would make every effort to cut off supplies to the SMs.

Yes indeed, the SMs would fight bravely.. and exact a very heavy toll on the Guard.. (very heavy in ratios at least), but I don't see how they could possibly expect to win.. there's just too many guardsmen (like.. I think somebody mentioned that before :p)

Sorry that my post mostly just sounds like the ones before, but I couldn't resist backing up the IG, considering my army is Guard :D

(plus even if I played SMs.. I'd simply have to admit.. there's no way the SMs could actually win if both forces were in it for the kill and had no thoughts of surrender)