Homeworld 2 Complex 8.4.3 [Archive] - Page 11

Alkezo

3rd Feb 08, 5:12 PM

I'm going to have to agree with DJ Die here. Cloaked Marine/Infiltrator Frigates would just turn into a capture-fest. It would also create too much micromanagement in terms of having to constantly watch your entire fleet for cloaked ships. Especially if your fleet is spread out. While it would create the need to build other ships like Spy and the Probes, it would create too many surprise attacks for the recieving end to react to. In essence this would cause players to become paranoid and force them to keep their fleet in one location. Capture Frigates were more of a way to capture undefended or defenseless targets, in my opinion. Trying to outright capture a capital ship would be kinda useless, considering the firepower it has.

Love the mod!
Hate the maps...
Since Beghins uses so much custom code its a lot of work to convert maps to be compatible with Complex. I have Tefeari's Map Pack but it is not compatible with the Complex mod, as I've tried it myself. Perhaps if Beghins releases the changes he/we need to make other maps compatible with Complex...

Strange thing with collectors - I was collecting debris and some of them choose to go to MS which was 30 km away then to the carrier which was next to them....
Yeah I noticed that too a lot when I was just getting the debris that's around my Mothership. It seems they only like to bring debris to the Mothership and ignore the other capital ships.

I love the tons of upgrades but would prefer to do without the honor ,crew and maintainence cost.
Asking for Complex without honor, crew, and maintenance is like asking for ice cream without the cream... :wtf:

How about Flak Platforms?
Too powerful. Flak weapons absolutely murder Fighters, Corvettes, and sometimes even Frigates. Adding Flak Platforms would add even more firepower to the Hiigarians for them to harness. Besides, the Gun Platforms and Pulsar Platforms do pretty well against smaller ships anyways.

And people please read before you post, at least to around when 6.0 was released. It's not that many pages... A lot of topics have been coming up that have already been brought up multiple times.

Sithicus

3rd Feb 08, 5:14 PM

I don't really want anything defended... I just want to have new ships/platforms etc. to play with :)

BigArv65

3rd Feb 08, 8:37 PM

Love the mod. Seems AI has certain traits depending on the map. Had some battles where they behave VERY strange, others where they are more...tactical?

As for crashes, not a one and I have a very rusty old rig:

1.82ghz Athlon 2500
1g ram
Radeon 9600
Win XP

Does slow down a wee bit, though...hehe.

Thanks for all the hard work of the team. Only thing I don't like is the Vortex. It's a personal thing, it just deosn't seem to fit the technology of this universe. Lots of weapons require lots of power, and lots of power usually equals a lot of hardware, hense a bigger ship. The Vortex has an awful lot of firepower for a slick little flying saucer. I like my lumbering space navy to LOOK like space navy.

Otherwise, brilliant execution!

Babbo

4th Feb 08, 12:43 AM

My remuneration still is always 0 ... Also, playing again some hard Vaygr CPU makes me wonder: running an army of collectors (~30), they pop up with shipyards every while I built a corvette :D

With respect to crashes, unfortunately it has become worse. Frequent CTDs when loading gamesaves and - I hate these crashes - game and PC freezes with ongoing soundtrack.

Agree with the map problem too and that AI's efficiency is strongly correlated with the underlying map.

Anyway, it's fun!

Shodane

4th Feb 08, 5:12 AM

Registered jus to say I <3 your mod.

Oh, and is there a changelog for new versions?

wgd

4th Feb 08, 6:28 AM

This is a mind-boggling mod!!!
As a first-timer I am overwhelmed, I must say with all the changes made, you could almost call this Homeworld 3 LOL...

Now being rusty with HW2 as it is, I find it almost impossible to even comprehend the massively enlarged Higaran tech tree(the bloody evac system was quite a surprise), not to mention all these new parameters. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE IT, but considering how there's no manual, tutorial etc, its really hard to play.

So I was thinking, since your english isn't your best language, and thats why you don't have a manual(yes I already read the posts regarding manuals), maybe you can put in an empty map? As in a map with resources but no enemies? Or allow a setting where you can close all other player slots on a map?
I say this because everytime I save the game, and then come back, the AI has a moodswing and owns me. Not saving the game would mean I have to start over if there's a crash.

Apart from that, I'd just like to say that this is the best strategy mod I've ever seen, keep up the good work!!!

DJ Die

4th Feb 08, 7:42 AM

beghins

4th Feb 08, 9:51 AM

Beghins id suggest lowering maintenance cost of RU Suply modules on Scavengers from 50 to 15-20 atm hiigaran fleet has huge maintenance and this would help a bit and allow you to have high levels of RU without need for huge resourcing op
OK

6.4 is in development, and it will be the last of the 6 series, so any suggestion or bug report related to language content, gameplay balancing and game imperfections is well accepted.
No more report to CTD or frozes, if you esperience those you've problems with your pc configuration, drivers and so on.
I understand you play H2 without problem but Complex require more HW since first years of game, if you want to play without crash with a low-medium machine try 1 vs 1.
I play at 2560x1600 antialiasing 16x anisotropic 16x vertical sync max detail and never encounter crash or frozes, my pc is very powerful, updated to last software and driver and clean from unuseful tasks; the same story for my second pc and it's not so powerful and mount another video card.
The only crash I consider is the "out of sync" and it happen in multiplayer match, if you encounter it please post your situation and the related game phase.
Thanks, Beghins

Jmendes

4th Feb 08, 10:41 AM

is there an option to remove debris and other game slowing things in 6.3?

DJ Die

4th Feb 08, 12:05 PM

ok since 6.4 will be last we need: speed upgrade for mining containers,shield upgrades for command fortress,battleship lasers should fire on all ships except fighters
also command fortress should be able to move very slowly but it should move because its hard to get it into right possition using hyperspace jumps especialy when debris is around maybe shuttle could be able to tow it

Elred

4th Feb 08, 12:22 PM

It would be great to balance the Vaygr Cruise missile:

It's too powerful, only one of them can destroy Hiigaran Research station or Crew Station, to slow down the player, and the game is over... Only 10 can destroy the Hiigaran MS, and 6 fort the Vaygr MS. And there's no possibilitie to defend against that...

You should reduce armor of Cruise Missile by 30%, or reduce damage so it can't destroy a station in a single shot. You can also increase the build time or reduce speed, but do something for that please!

Alkezo

4th Feb 08, 12:49 PM

:cube: Here to report more.

-The new A.I. is really nice. In fact, I got quite a surprise when they attacked me from behind. It's not very fair when you have one Expert CPU attacking your front while the other attacks your back, lol. The only real bug here to report is the "Ion Bug". Since Hiigarian A.I. love to build Ion Destroyers, they are severely handicapped.

-I tried testing the Ion Bug by building a large fleet of different Ion Cannon ships on Realistic Battle Duration. First I tried out the Ion Frigates, they seemed to work well so I conclude that they work in this mode. I then used around 6 Ion Destroyers on an enemy Dreadnaught. Well, this one didn't go too well as I'm not really sure how much damage they should do to a Dreadnaught, but I can conclude there's something wrong there. Please note that almost everytime I tested this I had the ships pretty much fully upgraded. It could be a possibility that the bug resides in the tech upgrades. I'm not sure though, so I'm just throwing out ideas to be checked up on.

-I had a Expert Vaygr just build Fighters on me one time. I sent in a Vortex to mess around with him to see if it would make him build anything else. I destroyed a Carrier and after that he build a few more Carriers and a Shipyard (something new in that game). He then started building a mass of Battleships, Battlecruisers, and Dreadnaughts (with a large number of them being Dreadnaughts). I think he was still building Fighters though, so just Fighters and Capital Ships. No Corvettes or Frigates. Perhaps in the A.I. code there is some bug that prevents them from building newer ships or researching new tech? I think the trigger that caused his change in personality was the Carrier I had destroyed.

-As it is right now, its a bit easy to screw Hiigarians over in the beginning. The crew system is a fragile so if you lose a scavenger or something, you have to wait until you get 30 honor to get a Crew Station, then build crew cells, then wait for them to get moving. I didn't build enough defenses once and a group of bombers barely managed to destroy my scavenger. Perhaps buff up the Crew Station and Crew Cells. The Crew Cells themselves don't survive very long and someone mentioned they try to go straight through nebula so perhaps make them immune to nebula damage as well? One Dreadnaught is able to kill a Crew Station in one shot.

-The balance between the new capital ships feels real nice. While the Vortex outmaneuvers all other capital ships, the Dreadnaught's firepower annihilates any stationary target. The Vaygr Battleship seems to be the only ship that can damage the Vortex with its pivoting "Ion Cannons", but the Vortex wins by a large margin. I don't think the Vaygr Battleship had everything on it though. It seems the Hiigarian Battlecruiser is outdated now, lol.

-The defense field for the Command Fortress is way too large to protect it from any damage, even from capital ships. I suppose it could be used more so to protect your other ships, but as a stand alone station, the shield doesn't help it very much.

Beghins id suggest lowering maintenance cost of RU Suply modules on Scavengers from 50 to 15-20 atm hiigaran fleet has huge maintenance and this would help a bit and allow you to have high levels of RU without need for huge resourcing op
That or lower the crew requirement, if that hasn't already been done. Forgot to check on version 6.3, lol. Either ideas would work as the scavenger is too taxing on the Hiigarians.

No more report to CTD or frozes, if you esperience those you've problems with your pc configuration, drivers and so on.
I play at 2560x1600 antialiasing 16x anisotropic 16x vertical sync max detail and never encounter crash or frozes
Are you saying 6.4 will have no more CTDs? :) The only CTDs I've really had were when loading a map, and it always seems to CTD on Universe. I've never had any freezes.
Do you encounter any lagging during later parts of the game? Like it gets "laggyer" as time progresses, I think it gets "laggyer" faster when I have more CPU, so maybe its my RAM. It could be my dualcore being out of sync but I'm using the IceAffinity to fix that, it might not be working though.

Ah yes. Forgot to say something about the flight pathing. It seems ships aren't looking where they're going as much anymore. I had a Sniper Frigate just run over one of my Resource Collectors when trying to get in position to fire at an enemy. I also had a time where my Corvettes were just ramming into capital ships constantly. There was a group of the capital ships so I think they weren't sure where to go so they just rammed them.

The selection indicator for the Vaygr Battlecruiser's Heavy Kinetic Cannons is too large. Too many times did I select the module instead of the ships itself.

beghins

4th Feb 08, 12:59 PM

Are you saying 6.4 will have no more CTDs? The only CTDs I've really had were when loading a map, and it always seems to CTD on Universe. I've never had any freezes.

Yes, me to, loading the game often we have crash, frustrating in multiplayer.
Who can do something for this is Mikail, the creator of the random function that generate Complex levels, so if he is still round here...

DJ Die

4th Feb 08, 2:52 PM

yup crew requirements of scavenger were already decrased as it is with remade crew recruitment system its fine but maintenance for those modules is still too high

and problem with stations field is not its size which imho should be decreased by 20% but its lack of upgrades at least regeneration upgrade would be great

ive seen lot of problems with pathfinding too for example when playing MP game AIs resourcers rammed competeted asteroid which it tried to mine but there was no room for it

thats all i can think of now

Vortex should be slower its too fast for ship of its size lets say 10% speed decrease and even with upgrades it will be fast but not invincible anymore

Fo®Saken

4th Feb 08, 4:08 PM

A decreased damage amount of the vagyr dn is something I would like to see, or at least a shorter range. They are way to powerfull now, especially against crew stations. Also, it would be nice if the vortex would be a lot bigger and slower. So much power in such a small and agile ship is to much. Whem the ion cannon bug is fixed you only need to use the vortex to destroy everything... If it would be slower and the standard kinetic guns would aim a little less good, the unit would be a lot more balanced. By the way, if it is bigger it should hyper in like a sy. It would look weird if a sy would produce a ship that is almost as big as itself.

evilaznboi05

4th Feb 08, 5:39 PM

Pravus

4th Feb 08, 11:14 PM

Hello Beghins et al.

As you know, I am one of the Mac players of the game and want to give a final report of the bugs experienced after playing a good number of 6.3 games.

Match settings do not work. Be it number of harvesters, starting RUs or game speeds, every match starts at the same settings.

Complex help is always on (probably connected to the above bug?) even when turned off.

Vortex has two un-textured or incorrectly mapped textures just under the bridge section on each side (the 'nose' of the vessel).

Request:

If the match settings above are corrected so that they work, could I ask for a 'Ship Debris On/Off' to be put with it. This will save so much time scurrying around the map, cleaning up after a battle to keep the frame rates up.

An amazing mod that really has surpassed the original game. I am still unsure which has been the best recent addition.. the Vortex or the Battleship (each side respectively). I think the almost unstoppable force of the Battleship and its insane salvo of missiles and beam weapons creeping across the map like a brick is still the most impressive sight!

Thank you to you and the team.

To Evilaznboi05 above.

Even though I am on a different OS than you, I had the very same problem with 6.3. I found that the actual file download was a bit flakey a fews days back and downloaded the Complex file again.

Have you tried that?

beghins

5th Feb 08, 12:32 AM

I can't seem to get Complex to work. I installed the most recent install 6.3 file and whenever I run the 6.3 shortcut. The game seems like it runs but stays in the blackscreen and then crashes. Also everything is up to date.

Windows Vista Ultimate
AMD Athlon 64x2 Dual Core 5000+ 2.6Ghz
2046MB RAM
256MB NVIDIA Geforce 7900 GS

Windows Vista Ultimate? Someone other run Complex on Vista?

Hello Beghins et al.

As you know, I am one of the Mac players of the game and want to give a final report of the bugs experienced after playing a good number of 6.3 games.

Match settings do not work. Be it number of harvesters, starting RUs or game speeds, every match starts at the same settings.

Complex help is always on (probably connected to the above bug?) even when turned off.

On Mac OS game starts always with normal settings, you see settings but you can't change it, and there's nothing to to for Mac.

Vortex has two un-textured or incorrectly mapped textures just under the bridge section on each side (the 'nose' of the vessel).

Someone other? Verify your driver and specs please.

If the match settings above are corrected so that they work, could I ask for a 'Ship Debris On/Off' to be put with it. This will save so much time scurrying around the map, cleaning up after a battle to keep the frame rates up.

Your lag in advanced game phase is not due to debris, but to your match population, so, try 1 vs 1 and you can make how many debris you want without lag.

Vortex should be slower its too fast for ship of its size lets say 10% speed decrease and even with upgrades it will be fast but not invincible anymore
OK

yup crew requirements of scavenger were already decrased as it is with remade crew recruitment system its fine but maintenance for those modules is still too high
OK

evilaznboi05

5th Feb 08, 1:04 AM

So I redownloaded everything and reinstalled the game, the patch, and the mod. Now I get:

Conflict with Disc Emulator Software detected. See www.securom.com/emulation for details.

The thing is I don't have a virtual drive or software installed at all. Wow Vista is frustrating.

Fo®Saken

5th Feb 08, 2:55 AM

I have the same problem now. When I go to that site it says that I have an illigal copy of the game or an emulator or something like that. I do not even know how an emulator works since I only want to have legal games and therefore I do not use one. How can this be solved? - And please do not ignore me again as you guys did with my last few posts. :o

S110

5th Feb 08, 5:46 AM

How odd. I get that same error every once in a while, however I restart the game and it runs fine. I'm running Vista Home Premium, but I used to get it now and then on XP Pro as well. I'm not so sure it's the OS at the root of the issue. I was getting this issue with vanilla HW2 as well. Perhaps you could try running it in compatibility mode for an earlier version of Windows and see if that works. Check for things like Nero INCD and other disk management software also - SecureRom may be too discriminatory about what it considers disc emulation software. If all else fails I hesitate to suggest it, but I think I saw a NOCD "Patch" floating around eMule a while ago that may solve the issue.

DJ Die

5th Feb 08, 6:05 AM

speed research for mining container would be great make it 3step each adding 10%
atm they are very slow and tend to block other ships while docking and undocking

rdman

5th Feb 08, 8:32 AM

in vista you must runn complex as administrator, so right click and check run as administrator

i am playing complex under vista 32bit ultimate

Alkezo

5th Feb 08, 9:26 AM

Vortex should be slower its too fast for ship of its size lets say 10% speed decrease and even with upgrades it will be fast but not invincible anymore
As much as I hate to say it, I would have to agree. The Vortex is a bit too good, lol. Maybe a 5% decrease would be enough, as that would allow just enough speed for missiles to catch up? 10% but no more.

A decreased damage amount of the vagyr dn is something I would like to see, or at least a shorter range. They are way to powerfull now, especially against crew stations. Also, it would be nice if the vortex would be a lot bigger and slower. So much power in such a small and agile ship is to much. Whem the ion cannon bug is fixed you only need to use the vortex to destroy everything... If it would be slower and the standard kinetic guns would aim a little less good, the unit would be a lot more balanced.
The Vortex and Dreadnaught do what they are made to do. I think each side created new ships to counter the other in their advantages. The Vortex, being the epitome of Hiigarian technology, was created to be as powerful as a Battlecruiser in a smaller package, thus making it highly maneuverable and countering the Vaygr's speed. The Dreadnaught was most likely made to counter the sheer power of the Hiigarian's Battlecruisers. Or perhaps counter their more powerful Command Station, as the Vaygr's isn't as powerful. You also have to take the price of the ship into consideration. Hiigarian ships are much more expensive than their Vaygr counterparts, at least when it comes to capital ships due to all the modules that must be built after construction. I believe Hiigarian's technology was superior to Vaygr, however the Vaygr were able to outmaneuver and outnumber the Hiigarians in several battles, thus creating the situation in the storyline.
The size shouldn't be increased, it's fine the way it is. Just decreasing the speed by a small percentage should be fine.
As it was before 6.0, it was either a race for Vaygr to win or a drawn out battle for Hiigaria to win. Now Vaygr have some chance in the Battlecruiser stage since they have Dreadnaughts and Battleships to counter the power of Hiigarian Battlecruisers. The Vortex is still easily destroyed by Command Stations (speaking of which, the Vaygr Command Station should probably be able to build what the Hiigarian Command Station can, except for the Ion Cannons or making it cheaper).

I think the almost unstoppable force of the Battleship and its insane salvo of missiles and beam weapons creeping across the map like a brick is still the most impressive sight!
Hehe, you should see the PDS mods... but they're more like light shows than a strategy game. Impressive, but not that fun.

And please do not ignore me again as you guys did with my last few posts. :o
Can you direct me to your last few posts that were ignored? The one I'm replying to now is only one, and some people only check this site once a day. So you can't really consider that ignoring. Neither is disagreeing with you ignoring.

Forgive my wall of text.

DragonRR

5th Feb 08, 9:30 AM

I have Windows Ultimate 64bit. No problems with 6.3. I do run from a separate games folder which (usually) negates the need for running the game as an admin.

Fo®Saken

5th Feb 08, 10:27 AM

@Alkezo
This post doesn't seem to have intersested anybody, but it seems like a pretty huge error to me. :-\

By the way, I think I found a bug to. I wanted to build a Command Fortress as Hig, but at the same time I was building a Vortex from my shipyard. I made a little mistake with the crew station, so I didn't had enough crew for both the CF and Vortex. The Vortex was done before the CF, but when the production of the CF stopped and vanished because of the crew shortage, my money vanished to... Every RU I had already spent on the CF didn't come back. I don't know if this happens with other things to, because the amounts are to small to check.

Sithicus

5th Feb 08, 2:03 PM

Got Vista Ultimate 64 as well. No problems except occassional CTD :)
I think it would be good to have ability to dock frigs and hold them in the hangar like fighters/corvetes.

Elred

5th Feb 08, 2:21 PM

Hello, as my post hasn't been noticed, I ask again:

Is it possible to balance the Vaygr Cruiser Missile?

It's too powerful, Vaygrs always win by using it.

It would be more balanced to make a research to unlock it (Cruise missile tech), because as it is now, Expert AI can be owned in 8 year by destroying Hiigaran Crew and Research Station with 2 missile (each one). Vaygr MS is destroyed with 6. Cruiser Missile health and damage should be descreased too, to make them easier to intercept.

Only by slowing down their accessibility the whole game would be more balanced.

PS: And pardon my bad english, it's not my first langage ;)

Alkezo

5th Feb 08, 3:08 PM

If your questions or problems aren't answered it most likely means no one has an answer, has already been brought up, or was skipped due to many new posts and people not reading everything. I'm sure beghins reads everyone's posts, he just chooses to respond to very few. In fact, before 6.0 his posts were few and far between.

But yes, I do believe that bug exists for all units since the HW2 engine wasn't designed to use the crew system Complex has, which is much better than the limits of types of ships. It may or may not be fixable. I'm not a programmer so I couldn't tell, which is why I didn't answer.

Is it possible to balance the Vaygr Cruiser Missile?

It's too powerful, Vaygrs always win by using it.

It would be more balanced to make a research to unlock it (Cruise missile tech), because as it is now, Expert AI can be owned in 8 year by destroying Hiigaran Crew and Research Station with 2 missile (each one). Vaygr MS is destroyed with 6. Cruiser Missile health and damage should be descreased too, to make them easier to intercept.

Only by slowing down their accessibility the whole game would be more balanced.
Are they really that powerful? I keep forgetting to test them as I've been trying out the new ships. I remember in 5.5 that they practically did nothing and I had asking to have them fixed. A research for the missiles for the Vaygr and Hiigarians as a requirement to build would be good. I'm not sure about the Vaygr but for the Hiigarians only the Mothership can build the Missiles and the builder ship HAS to have the required module to build them. I.E. Fire Control Tower for Viper Missiles and Defense Control Tower for Tango Mines. I think you shouldn't have to have the modules on the builder ship to build those. It really limits what you can have on your Mothership as right now I end up always building the same modules because its the best way to go.

If your questions or problems aren't answered it most likely means no one has an answer, has already been brought up, or was skipped due to many new posts and people not reading everything. I'm sure beghins reads everyone's posts, he just chooses to respond to very few. In fact, before 6.0 his posts were few and far between.

But yes, I do believe that bug exists for all units since the HW2 engine wasn't designed to use the crew system Complex has, which is much better than the limits of types of ships. It may or may not be fixable. I'm not a programmer so I couldn't tell, which is why I didn't answer.

Is it possible to balance the Vaygr Cruiser Missile?

It's too powerful, Vaygrs always win by using it.

It would be more balanced to make a research to unlock it (Cruise missile tech), because as it is now, Expert AI can be owned in 8 year by destroying Hiigaran Crew and Research Station with 2 missile (each one). Vaygr MS is destroyed with 6. Cruiser Missile health and damage should be descreased too, to make them easier to intercept.

Only by slowing down their accessibility the whole game would be more balanced.
Are they really that powerful? I keep forgetting to test them as I've been trying out the new ships. I remember in 5.5 that they practically did nothing and I had asking to have them fixed. A research for the missiles for the Vaygr and Hiigarians as a requirement to build would be good. I'm not sure about the Vaygr but for the Hiigarians only the Mothership can build the Missiles and the builder ship HAS to have the required module to build them. I.E. Fire Control Tower for Viper Missiles and Defense Control Tower for Tango Mines. I think you shouldn't have to have the modules on the builder ship to build those. It really limits what you can have on your Mothership as right now I end up always building the same modules because its the best way to go.

I was going to post earlier but the site wasn't letting me. It was trying to load my reply as if I was downloading something. :noway:

DJ Die

5th Feb 08, 4:45 PM

it wasnt unnoticed ive been thinking about it id suggest this:
should need research,speed should be 250-300(maybe something in between like 280),price 2000+rus , build time 40sec to prevent spamming,armor 2500 but damage should be same but these changes will make them harder to use while keeping them deadly if use with good tactics

maybe vaygr missile should be cheaper lets say 1500rus and easier to build lets say 35 sec but because their technology is less advanced some armor needed to be removed to retain same speed reducing armor to 1800-2000

what do you think?

and yes only MS can build them for both sides they are too deadly i remember we played game only using those missiles because everything else was just waste of resources

and research should cost about 3500rus with 120sec res time at least

evilaznboi05

5th Feb 08, 10:39 PM

For those with this problem:
Conflict with Disc Emulator Software detected. See www.securom.com/emulation for details.

Go to the site and do what they ask you to do. They'll give you a file to fix it.

Elred

5th Feb 08, 11:35 PM

Sorry, it wasn't very polite to ask two time ^^ But any player who know this unbalance can win against better player without any difficulties...

Last time I checked, I saw that Vaygr Missiles can be built on the Shipyard too.

Hmm, if their build time is increased no one will use them, because it would freeze the construction queue. I think it would be better to keep the fast build time and to reduce armor significantly (and damages). It would make them easier to destroy and the 3 or 4 interceptor that IA build at the beginning of the game could destroy it. But if that is done (reduce health and damages), research should cost no more than 2000RU, it would be too expansive for the utility these missile has.

It could be great to make Researches Upgrades to these Missile too (on the both sides). It would force the player to waste time and RUs in researching for an optimal use, and they won't be spammed at the beginning of the game anymore.

I think these missiles must be used as a support on fleet offensive, by targeting production ship when all enemy ships are fighting against our squadrons. But as they are now, they are a way to prepare an attack by destroying key-ships of enemy fleet, and that's too powerful. Only a full-epgraded missile would be able to destroy Stations in one hit.

beghins

6th Feb 08, 1:12 AM

Alkezo

6th Feb 08, 1:49 AM

and yes only MS can build them for both sides they are too deadly
I mean have the required modules on different ships while still allowing the missile/mine to be built at the Mothership. And I do recall the Vaygr being able to build their missiles at their shipyard as well...

I'm going to test those missiles myself and see how much they really do, but it seems that the Hiigarian missiles do less damage than the Vaygr? Perhaps it should be: Hiigarian missiles small and fast but less damaging, and Vaygr missiles larger and slower but more damaging. At least that's what I got from using them.

Also is anyone else having problems posting?

Fo®Saken

6th Feb 08, 2:08 AM

That is to bad. I guess we just have to keep a close eye on the limits then. And I apologize for being such a forum noob here and that i keep asking the same questions, but I am just a forum noob. p.s. I have come up with a little trick on how to properly balance the stats of missiles. You just have to compare the cost of the missiles that you fire to the cost of the target you want to destroy. Example: hig vs vag, killing a destroyer takes about six vipers. Cost vipers: 6 X 900: 5400. Cost destroyer: 4000 Balanced: no, you should at least have to spend 1.5 times the resources becuase this method is so effective and risk free. Do this for all ships and take the average of that, that should give you the right price. I will post a nice table later on with all the stats, including stuff on how to balance damage and speed for both missiles. Wow, I think I will do a manual if I have the time when the last of the six series is out!

Ahto

6th Feb 08, 2:21 AM

I haven't had the chance yet to try out the 6.3 release but I have found some oddities with 5.5 release.

Before me, people have talked about the missiles. I have never been using them (I've built them but they just sit there and do nothing, even when I'm attacked by, let's say, 8 Vaygr destroyers. The same goes with Vaygr Cruise Missile - it never does anything. It's built, yes, but never attacks.

Another big oddity is Hiigaran MS Ion Cannon. I've seen it fire only once, and it was like, I don't know, making me really mad! I had researched three-step power - which is REALLY expensive -, and it's quite useless. I don't know, perhaps in "6. ..." release, it would be possible to see what's going on with it. And with the Ion Cannon, it's power distributes to mothership's overall attack power. After the research finishes, I get "Mothership is taking light enemy fire." message from the lovely lady voice... Really funny thing.

I have had also problems vith Khopesh corvettes. After I researched the chassis, the game crashed. Two times in a row, and I have not used them again. Other players (AI or multiplayer) use them. The same goes with Shiry-class fighters and Tulwar-class frigates.

In overall, I think that Hiigarans have good tech and really nice ships to choose from but they're production is like, well, way slow. I get a swarm of Vaygr corvettes and fighters in first 5 minutes and loose half my subsystems and I'm back in the beginning. Isn't it possible to speed up both the construction and research? I mean, they can cost as much as they do but they should be a little bit faster. And the Manufacturing Controller which is really useful, is possible to build after second reasearch module.

But all in all, I think this mod is the best out there, I've played many of them and it's my all-time favourite. Thanks for letting us have this! :-)

Fo®Saken

6th Feb 08, 5:05 AM

You should try 6.3 first then, since those things are fixed already.

DJ Die

6th Feb 08, 7:29 AM

you have to choose what to target with those missiles they wont do anything alone you know and MS's ion cannon is one of most usefull things

i know you have to build several modules to use those missiles but i always build most of them except platform module so its not such burden for me

price should be tad bigger than 1.5 of whats needed to destroy dest because imagine you destroy research station with all 3 research modules if its upgraded it takes 2 missiles so thats 1800 to destroy target worth more than 16000

Elred

6th Feb 08, 7:33 AM

Some balancing done here

Thanks you :)

Before me, people have talked about the missiles. I have never been using them (I've built them but they just sit there and do nothing, even when I'm attacked by, let's say, 8 Vaygr destroyers. The same goes with Vaygr Cruise Missile - it never does anything. It's built, yes, but never attacks.

You must make them attack manually.

Another big oddity is Hiigaran MS Ion Cannon. I've seen it fire only once, and it was like, I don't know, making me really mad! I had researched three-step power - which is REALLY expensive -, and it's quite useless. I don't know, perhaps in "6. ..." release, it would be possible to see what's going on with it.

Same thing, try to make him attack manually (Z key)... I never really used the MS Ion cannon (enemy dead before being at the good range :p), so I cant' tell you if it will work

Alkezo

6th Feb 08, 12:48 PM

In overall, I think that Hiigarans have good tech and really nice ships to choose from but they're production is like, well, way slow. I get a swarm of Vaygr corvettes and fighters in first 5 minutes and loose half my subsystems and I'm back in the beginning. Isn't it possible to speed up both the construction and research? I mean, they can cost as much as they do but they should be a little bit faster. And the Manufacturing Controller which is really useful, is possible to build after second reasearch module.
Homeworld 2 has always been about Vaygr killing Hiigarian before they can mass up, as the Hiigarian's technology is slightly better than the Vaygr. Those are the advantages of the 2 races. Vaygr are fast and cheap, while Hiigarian are slow and powerful. That's the general idea. I believe Complex builds upon that, so it would be true here as well. In essence the Hiigarian ships are a tad better than the Vaygr. However the Vaygr do have some ships that are better than their Hiigarian counterparts. It all depends on and you build and strategy.

Try different tactics and see what works best against AI.

Play Complex 6.3. Complex 5.5 is old news, so whatever you post about it is not going to matter. I think beghins is focusing on the 6 series and may not even go back to fix the issues in 5.5.

DragonRR

6th Feb 08, 12:49 PM

Possible bug:

Quite early in a 6.3 game I paused the production on.. I THINK.. a defense control tower on the Mothership. The game immediately quit to desktop. The log file shows:

Homeworld2.exe caused an Access Violation in module seFDAudio.dll at 0023:029547dc.
Error occurred at 2/6/2008 19:38:38.
Homeworld2.exe, run by Dragon.
Microsoft Windows XP?.
4 processor(s), type 586.
0 MBytes physical memory.
Read from location 121f9000 caused an access violation.

I'm using Windows Vista Ultimate 64bit. I had a similar quit to desktop in 6.0 during January but for some other reason.. I can't remember what caused it:

Homeworld2.exe caused an Access Violation in module Homeworld2.exe at 0023:00496858.
Error occurred at 1/15/2008 18:34:52.
Homeworld2.exe, run by Dragon.
Microsoft Windows XP?.
4 processor(s), type 586.
0 MBytes physical memory.
Read from location 00000024 caused an access violation.

Vemarkis

6th Feb 08, 1:05 PM

Wrong log file, you want to post the contents of hw2.log. The file you just posted is only useful to developers, and those who have disassembled the exe.

Draconica

6th Feb 08, 1:40 PM

All this talk about Viper missles being an easy means to win. What kind of spammed numbers are we talking about? 5? 10? 50? They seem great vs destroyers, but against the enemy mothership I didn't notice any significant damage.
People were complaining about the crew ship dieing too easily to them, but then...the crew ship dies easily to any focused assault.. and using missles requires bringing ones mothership into close proximity to the enemies mothership (where the crew ship will most likely be). That doesn't seem to overly powered to me. But I guess thats why I'm asking how missiles were used to seem overpowered.
What kind of tactic do you employ with the missle spam concept to win? platform mod, firecontrol mod, then rush your mothership into range of the enemy while spamming as many missles as possible?

DragonRR

6th Feb 08, 2:35 PM

The hw2.log file is empty of any errors Akalamanaia.

Elred

6th Feb 08, 3:10 PM

What kind of tactic do you employ with the missle spam concept to win? platform mod, firecontrol mod, then rush your mothership into range of the enemy while spamming as many missles as possible?

No need. Just a normal strategy, interceptors and gun turrets for the defense, fire control tower as usual to unlock damage upgrades. After that spend 2500RU by making 2 missiles. Then, 3 or 4 probes around enemy area (to prevent destroying), and then select the missile and right click on the crew station ^^ And after one or two minutes, BOOM.

But Viper missiles are good as they are. They're less damaging than Cruise and can be cloaked, so they're a good way to support fleet.

Cruise missiles are overpowered because only one can destroy a key-ship without any damage by enemy fleet parked here at the beginning of the game, 'cause it's only Interceptors and bombers...

Fo®Saken

6th Feb 08, 3:52 PM

When missiles seem to do almost no damage to ships bigger then destroyers, you are using them the wrong way. You must make sure that the missiles hit the side of the ships, especially against a vaygr mothership or shipyard. You can do this by selecting a target next to the target, when the missiles are on the side of your target you can target that again. You only need about 15 vipers for an instant vaygr ms instant kill or about 10 for a shipyard.

PCvillian

6th Feb 08, 7:30 PM

"When missiles seem to do almost no damage to ships bigger then destroyers, you are using them the wrong way."

Ah HA! I just tried missiles (viper) for the first time and against large ships nothing but small ships 2 pops and GONE!

Pretty powerful and you can spam the heck out of a much larger force without getting touched. I will try on frigates next time.

Whoo Hoo!

Fo®Saken

7th Feb 08, 12:08 AM

It is impossible to fire viper missiles on frigates. They are coded in such a way that they can only be fired on capital ships. Anyways, if you would be able to fire them on frigates the game would be really boring, since it would destroy any frigate in one hit.

Vemarkis

7th Feb 08, 2:38 AM

The hw2.log file is empty of any errors Akalamanaia.Then you have not ran Homeworld 2 with the -luatrace command. You should do that to be able to provide meaningful error reports, anything else but contents of hw2.log is useless to modders.

Ahto

7th Feb 08, 6:42 AM

Elred -> You must make them attack manually.

Well, I tried out the new 6.3. It's awsome, really, but quite complicated. Maybe it seemed so because I played for the first time.

The missiles work now properly. My Vortex unleashed a volley at the Vaygr and they all detonated nicely. Though I must agree, they are not the most powerful ones, they still do something.

I don't know why but map Tanis resource mania crashes on my PC.

I was thinking that wouldn't it possible to increase Scavanger's RU supply module's added RU limit from 3000 to, let's say, 5000? I established three resource points plus a mining base and in the end, I had as many Scavangers as I had collectors!

What really made me laugh was that with realistic battle, I lost MS to a squadron of Vaygr bombers! :-D I was swearing like a mad!

And I do love the battle fortress! 2,5 million HP just after first upgrade!

All in all, the 6.3 version is nice, though a little overwhelming at first. But it's nice.

Ah, and I forgot to tell that though with my own missiles, I should target enemy ships manually, the AI still doesn't fire them on my ships (Vipers, to be exact). So there's still soemthing going on with them. The AI, knowing Viper's destructive power should on the contraty try to fire them. Tango mines go after the target autonomously.

Alkezo

7th Feb 08, 4:28 PM

But Viper missiles are good as they are. They're less damaging than Cruise and can be cloaked, so they're a good way to support fleet.
Agreed, Viper Missiles are good but Cruise Missiles seem a bit over-powered. The Cruise Missiles also seem a little buggy in the damage they do. I think they sometimes end up getting destroyed by being rammed before they can detonate.

I was thinking that wouldn't it possible to increase Scavanger's RU supply module's added RU limit from 3000 to, let's say, 5000?
Why would you need to do that? If you have that many RU's you should of won already. The Vaygr are limited to the number of Supply Researches available to them while the Hiigarian can build as many Scavangers as their Crew Limit allows. It's already in the favor of Hiigarians as it is, no need to make the gap even larger.

What really made me laugh was that with realistic battle, I lost MS to a squadron of Vaygr bombers!
What? How do you lose a Mothership to some bombers? I always have it on Realistic Battle mode, since it seems to make the Ion Cannons less buggy, and and I have never lost a Mothership to anything on the first wave. Even without the Improved Mothership Defense Research for either side or the Flak Turrets for Hiigaria, I've managed managed to always win against bombers.

Now to report my own cases. Some of it may be already posted, but I'll repost for more emphasis.

-I was playing 2v2 with an Expert Hiigarian on my side and he managed to lose most of his Shipyards that he built. He never rebuilt them so he ended up lagging behind because he only had 1 shipyard to produce his capital ships. It also seemed he fell behind in research as well, as he didn't build even have an Engineering Module for a long time. When he finally managed to get a Command Fortress, he only built the Defense Facility Module on it and nothing else.

-Vaygr Command Fortress needs to be buffed or made cheaper and faster to build. Its no where near the capabilities of the Hiigarian counterpart.

-Vaygr Multilance Corvette still shows 0 attack. :ignore:

-It seems that some of the ships that aren't part of the original Homeworld don't have less detailed HUDs or models. For instance, the battlecruisers will look less detailed when you zoom out or when your FPS starts to get low. So it looks weird when I'm looking at a battlecruiser that has a low-res model but high res modules. I don't know if beghins still has a modeller/HUDer to fix this though, but I do think that if low res models/textures were created, it would help with the lag a bit.

Piwat-Anton

7th Feb 08, 11:58 PM

I really enjoy this mod and have been playing with it for some time but I'd like to modify it to be more of my play style such as having all my stuff being built with 1 RU and what not >.> so how do I mod it? do i decompile it and do it from there? I have already tried that and put all of the files in side of the folder where the .big file is located am i doing something wrong or what do i have to do to change some stuff within complex?

Ahto

8th Feb 08, 12:44 AM

To Alkezo ->
Well, as you know, when you start the game, the AI sends against you, depending on its level, first wave of fighters. I knew that and I wasn't really concerned about it because until now, nothing ever happened, maybe one collector lost. I usually let my resources to build up to produce Carrier and other essentials in the beginning rather that just go and start firing. On realistic mode, I got the swarm. Not really beaing concerned, my surprise was even bigger when I saw that MS status bar showed yellow and then the alarm sounded. I was too dumbstruck to do anything about it and just witnessed it being destroyed. And it was the first wave. How it could've been, I cannot really tell but that's what happened.

Well, my tactics is to build up defensive perimeter around resourcing and then concentrate on cap ships. To do so, I need RU storage. I just love seeing Hiigaran battlecruisers, four or six of them, tearing through Vaygr. That's why I have this RU problem because I don't pump my resources on smaller vessels, I never build a fighter subsystem, they're no use (at least to me). I'm more a cap shim guy... :-D

I also tried out palying Vaygr. Their construction speed is fenomenal! I had a nasty little encounter with Hiigaran Flak frigates, six of them, and I had a Carrier with corvette subsystem. When I saw the frigates coming, I started manufacturing Missile Corvettes immediately. Not knowing how fast the Vaygr build, I left it all at that because there were other things to worry about as well. It turned out, 10 squadrons of corvettes was done so fast that I sent them against the frigates before they entered firing range. No wonder I always get a swarm of Vaygr fighters and corvettes! :-D They're built really fast, too fast. But of course, they're like mosquitos - Flak frigates were destroyed, but also all my 10 squadrons. Hiigarans would have lost maybe 4 or 3 squadrons.

Another thing I spotted was that the voice-over is different. It doesn't say any more "Destroyer complete" but "Capital ships complete".

But, the mod's better than any other I have palyed this far... Thanks for doing it.

beghins

8th Feb 08, 7:41 AM

OK tomorrow I will release the 6.4, I think the last one, still one day left for last bug reports, thanks

callitri

8th Feb 08, 9:25 AM

first of all imba job on complex m8 i have nothingbut praises for u and your work , now about my help request
its bit of a long shot but hopeing someone might have the picture
i found it years ago and i had it on a cd but someone gratiously stole my cd... its a concept art drawing/cg image dont know exactly it has a taiidani heavy cruiser and a destroyer on it the destroyer is in front and its realy detailed image , if anyone saw it or even has it would love to have it
i tried evry place i now where i can find homeworld conceptart drawing and i tried evry possible search termin google but nothing:(
thx again guys

Zayez

8th Feb 08, 9:46 AM

Got a bug for you beghins, missle frigate calisto missles have no effect. When you fire them just as they are about to hit they simply disappear. No explosion, no damage. I've tried them several times, and the results are the same. Shirry calistos impact and cause damage, but Missle Frigates Calisto's do nothing except fire a really rapid torpedo that looks slightly different then the rest. As I said earlier, prior to impacting the target they simply phase out of existance. I've used them against anything I get the chance from frigates to cap ships and the results are always the same, NI (negative impact)

Alkezo

8th Feb 08, 1:32 PM

I really enjoy this mod and have been playing with it for some time but I'd like to modify it to be more of my play style such as having all my stuff being built with 1 RU and what not
Do you have Unfbig? If you use that you can easily decompile and recompile data folders and big files.

Here's the link for all the modder tools (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Quadrant/3864/homeworld.htm)

Barring a few misspells, balance issues, and AI bugs; I have to say that Complex is almost perfect. ;)

-A few of the Research's don't have the right text. I think there was something that wasn't right with the Sensor Health Research wording. And I remember there being a Damage Upgrade that said +aim%. Not that big a deal though. Everything else has already been said from me that I can think of.
EDIT:

Got a bug for you beghins, missle frigate calisto missles have no effect.
Missile Frigates have the Calisto ability now? I stopped using them when I found out the lovely capabilities of the Sniper Frigate, lol. Well at least they aren't completely obsolete now, lol.

Ahto

9th Feb 08, 5:22 AM

Actually, I have tried out the Unfbig with Complex .big file and after I recompliled it, the game crashesh. It's size becomes bigger than the original, maybe because of that. After it crashed, I tried to decompile and recompile without making any changes in anywhere and it still was bigger than the original.
Am I doing wrong something?

Fo®Saken

9th Feb 08, 8:56 AM

I had changed some stuff to for testing purposes -I was checking how effective ion weapons were because everyone seems to have trouble with it- and I had the same problem. Just leave it decompiled and us the -overrideBigFile command. That should work just fine. You are not going to share it with other people anyways, so it should not cause trouble. If you want to remove the modification again you only have to remove the decompiled folders.

Ahto

9th Feb 08, 2:32 PM

I'm really excited to try out the new 6.5 but there are some things that might need beghins attention.
Dreadnought explosion is carried out in an expanding square. Not like others explode.

Forsaken -> Could you explain the decomplilation a little bit more? I'm quite a beginner at that, I'm afraid. Do I need to decomplile the .big file into a "Complex63" (or 64) folder with all its contents and then put the override at the end of the target line in shortcut? Help is much appreciated! :-)

Schakal

9th Feb 08, 2:33 PM

there is only one word: magnificent.

but one question, in the previous version, there was a gallery , where i could read something about some ships. why isnt the gallery in 6.x???

Sithicus

9th Feb 08, 3:12 PM

6.4 released! W00T :)

maddeath

9th Feb 08, 3:49 PM

Hi everyone, new here.
Naturally, one huge smooch to beghins and his coworkers for what i regard as the possibly best mod ever made.

Now a few suggestions and questions (based mainly on 6.3), before complex gets forever sealed...

1) I would love to see more module slots on the vortex. One is very unsatisfying for the ru paid, compared to the bc.
I like its speed and maneuvaribility, which i would like to keep high. Thanks to this it owned a dreadnaught without even getting scratched (and so I missed my chance to see the dreads power, meheh).

2) What exactly should the chimera station be good for? I built it once in 6.0 and it appeared useless to me.

3) Seemed to me like the (bc) ion beams did quite a job on the destroyer i watched get hit last time (6.3). Health went continually down like mad...

4) Why do torpedo frigs get a callisto upgrade anyway? They have some sort of anti-cap upgrade.

5) The good ol' races are slowly becoming worn. Some sort of third party would be great. Even something very simple. Just to add variety to a clash of several players.
My suggestion: progenitor - bentus - mothership, cap production
- keeper - destroyer, carrier, small ship production
- keeper drone - fast heavy corvette
- mover - harvesting, capturing, salvaging, EMP, light guns
- dreadnaught - bc
I admit knowing nothing about the work required to do this, but according to what I read so far, it should be quite simple. At least compared to what had been done so far...

6) Why not just remove the side-mounted bc ion upgrade? Does anyone use that?

7) More power for khopesh.

8) Does it pay off to build heavy bombers? I never had the opportunity to thoroughly test them, but they didnt impress me when I did.

9) What good do x-bombers do? I built them once, mixed them among normal bombers. The x-bombers got mowed down much faster than the rest for some reason, so I recycled them.

10) Vaygr destroyer rockets chase and hit corvettes and even bombers. Thats quite a hassle.

11) Now that ships can collide, fighters and corvettes need better piloting. Last time my bombers were attacking a frig while a destroyer moved in front of it. About 1/2 of the 15-20 bomber squads crashed into the destroyers side and to top it off, the destroyer seemed completely unharmed. Oh, crud. I could accept that collision a bad luck in battle, but the unharmed destroyer was too much.

12) I would like to see the "heavy nuclear waster" (cant remember unit name) transferred to the vaygr. Would suit them better, while it doesnt suit hiigarans at all.
Vaygr have less ships anyway.

13) How bout a defense field generator module available to all ships with slots?

Thats all, at least for now...
Time to fetch 6.4...

Fo®Saken

9th Feb 08, 4:07 PM

@Atho - You should unpack and decompile the .big file into a seperate folder first. -You can do this with any tool you want, as long as it can extract and decompile it is fine for this method, since you do not have to convert it back to big format again.- Then you open that folder and copy EVERYTHING in it to your homeworld data map. Make sure that there are no other files then the standard files or other .big files in the data directory before doing this, because mixed up files cause errors. Now add the -overrideBigFile AFTER the quotation marks in the target line in the properties of your game shortcut, you can now run the game from the folders instead of the .big file. You can now edit the values of all the stuff in the folders to what you like, when you get an error, you simply copy-paste the original file from the folder we created a while ago over the edited file to undo any changes. By the way, for ship costs changing you have to edit the .ship files in the ships folder.

Sithicus

9th Feb 08, 4:26 PM

I think Chimera is good for cloaking nearby ships and preventing those juggies from jumping to close to your MS :)
And about BC Ion Batteries - when they'll hit you - you know you're bit hit :) Not sure but I think those ion beams are second in power only to ion beams on the station. BTW - I was playing 6.3 earlier and observed ion bug on BC normal ion turret. It was blasting a frigate for a few seconds without any damage to it. Frig got blasted by Kinetc cannons in a few seconds so I though no big deal.

Zayez

9th Feb 08, 5:25 PM

Yep, missle frigates have calistos and I like to build every ship just to make the game last longer ^^ Im not fond of short easy battles or cheap victories.

Also, the BC Ion Batteries are very effective, and they work now, I tried em the other day and was amazed ^^ my one BC with ion Batteries defeated 1 enemy Vagyr BC and damaged the other one before it pulled it out and I still had half HP left ^^ and it wasnt fully upgraded, only had 1 hp upgrade and 2 damage upgrades. So the ion batters are definitely working and worth while when you think about it or torpedo batteries.

Sithicus

9th Feb 08, 6:56 PM

DAmn, I've got my first CTD, right after building my research station.
Got several more.... so I've decided to do a clean install and apply the patch... worked like a charm :)

Sajuuk333

9th Feb 08, 11:23 PM

Beghins, I have an important notice: Ion cannons might not work because enemy/allied ships are fully upgraded, repair wise, and they're in a repair module's range

Ahto

10th Feb 08, 1:57 AM

Thanks, Forsaken, you're the bud! :-)

Beghins -> I played as Hiigaran and thought that just in case I should build Core (Vaygr have a nasty habit destroying key ships). I left mothership to work on it and turned my attention to another location where there was a huge battle going on. After it was done, I came back and saw that the Core was done, yes, but no model. When I wanted to select it, I selected "thin air", no ship.

Chimera station should have subsystems (at least, so suggests the small introduction at the build options) but it is not selectable. It's like a dustcloud - you can see it, it's there and yet you cannot select it.

The Vaygr can build three different supercapital ships while Hiigarans only two - battlecruiser and Vortex. I played 2 v 2 and oh boy, the opponent was tearing through my and ally's capships like butter! The AI had constructed 4 Sajuuks, 3 battleships and 2 battlecruisers. Sajuuk is powerful and with proper support from other capships, it really dangerous - I lost a battlecruiser with first minute (fully upgraded one, that is). Difference in HP is 200 000 and even more.

I executed a very interesting idea - I hyperspaced my Command Fortress to the front to see what it can do. It had 4 or 5 ion beams but they aren't the same as battlecruisers, they were quite feeble against a shipyard. My guess is they are the same as Ion Platform beams. Drones are nice, tough and resilient. Though I must say, Fortress should unleash mines much faster. But it was nice to see how it managed to damage a lot of shipyards (four of them were huddled close to each other). And with 4.2 million HP, Fortress rocks! :-D

wgd

10th Feb 08, 6:34 AM

Just as a thought, is it possible to increase the unit cap? Atm we're restricted to 60 Officers and 1225 Crew, which is reasonable I admit.

Its just that 12 BC/Vortex and a Fortress plus smaller ships doesn't seem exciting(big) enough...perhaps another crew vessel?

Also, the same could be said for the research vessel, can we have more than one to speed up the research process? Its really tedious.

BattleCruiseGuy

10th Feb 08, 6:40 AM

Ummmm..... Your mod does not work on mac since there is no browser bar on the finder, therefor no command lines. Please help. :spartaaa: :wtf:

Alkezo

10th Feb 08, 11:25 AM

1) I would love to see more module slots on the vortex. One is very unsatisfying for the ru paid, compared to the bc.
The Vortex is good as it is now, maybe a bit overpowered which is why a speed reduction was requested.

5) The good ol' races are slowly becoming worn. Some sort of third party would be great. Even something very simple. Just to add variety to a clash of several players.
So much work in programming and testing, it would be worth it's own mod. In fact, there is a seperate mod that allows a third race. That's asking way too much from behgins.

6) Why not just remove the side-mounted bc ion upgrade? Does anyone use that?
Why remove them? The flight pathing just needs to be fixed, and it would be great. It does great damage when the Battlecruisers aren't turning their backs to everything.

9) What good do x-bombers do? I built them once, mixed them among normal bombers. The x-bombers got mowed down much faster than the rest for some reason, so I recycled them.
Subsystems. Try massing a bunch in the beginning and attack some key subsytems, like Crew/Officer Barracks, Research Modules, etc.

10) Vaygr destroyer rockets chase and hit corvettes and even bombers. Thats quite a hassle.
All missiles do that. Especially when a ship is destroyed and there are a bunch of missiles near other ships. It's like recycling all those missiles that were fired instead of them just disappearing.

11) Now that ships can collide, fighters and corvettes need better piloting. Last time my bombers were attacking a frig while a destroyer moved in front of it. About 1/2 of the 15-20 bomber squads crashed into the destroyers side and to top it off, the destroyer seemed completely unharmed. Oh, crud. I could accept that collision a bad luck in battle, but the unharmed destroyer was too much.
Yeah the flight pathing for the smaller ships are a bit messed up since the collision was added. Now it seems half your fighters just die from ramming the enemy ship. This definately needs to be fixed as smaller ships are already obsolete in late game due to explosion damage. Fighters/Corvettes are still fun to mass though, lol.

12) I would like to see the "heavy nuclear waster" (cant remember unit name) transferred to the vaygr. Would suit them better, while it doesnt suit hiigarans at all.
Vaygr doesn't need any more ships, they're fine with the ships they have now. They're supposed to be more simple than Hiigarian. Though I do have to agree with you on the Juggernaught not fitting the Hiigarians very much. I mean what officers, let alone crew, would want to go on a suicide mission...

13) How bout a defense field generator module available to all ships with slots?
Let's see... Vortex + Defense Field = ?. I'm sure you could figure out the outcome of that one...

The Vaygr can build three different supercapital ships while Hiigarans only two - battlecruiser and Vortex. I played 2 v 2 and oh boy, the opponent was tearing through my and ally's capships like butter! The AI had constructed 4 Sajuuks, 3 battleships and 2 battlecruisers. Sajuuk is powerful and with proper support from other capships
The Vaygr needed more in terms of late game ships. They were so far behind in the capital ships department that Hiigarians could win as long as they got a Battlecruiser out. Now the Vaygr can stand a chance against the Hiigarians while still being behind a little bit late game. The Dreadnaught can't even turn to aim at it, so they can't do their big damage. The Battlecruiser's main cannons can't aim at the Vortex either. So I would say a fleet of Vortex v.s. a fleet of Battleships, Dreadnaughts, and Battlecruisers, the Vortex's would win.

Its just that 12 BC/Vortex and a Fortress plus smaller ships doesn't seem exciting(big) enough...perhaps another crew vessel?
Also, the same could be said for the research vessel, can we have more than one to speed up the research process? Its really tedious.
I would say having the ability to build more than one Crew/Research Station would help but not because the added crew or faster research. I just don't like the how feeble the ships are and how easy they are destroyed. Destroying those ships pretty much makes that player no longer a threat and can easily be taken out.
Homeworld has always been a slower game than other RTSs and Complex just builds upon it. So I would have to say it's supposed to be slow, though hardly tedious.

On behalf of behgins, thank you. I really enjoy Complex and I believe it's the most thought out mod for Homeworld 2. I really like the A.I. attacking from above, behind, and below. It really makes me rethink leaving some place undefended.

BattleCruiseGuy

10th Feb 08, 2:53 PM

Nev mind I used Terminal

Sithicus

10th Feb 08, 3:44 PM

Guys, I've build those 3 nuclear launcher on the station but it seems that its not launching those warheads.... ???

Joe 2987

10th Feb 08, 4:11 PM

this is awesome!
:Hail:

Alkezo

10th Feb 08, 5:27 PM

Guys, I've build those 3 nuclear launcher on the station but it seems that its not launching those warheads.... ??? EDIT: Nevermind. I got to Battleship era and found out what you mean. I never got to test them though due to the game freezing.

Nerb

10th Feb 08, 7:58 PM

I know im late chiming in, but it seems most people on here have been playing Hiigaran. Ive been playing Vayger and have some issues. The cruise missiles are way to powerful and easy to build. It seems Vayger can ahnillate Hiigaran by building nothing but probes and cruise missiles. Against the computer i just research and build what is required to get the cruise missile, build 5 missiles, send out a bunch of probes and destroy the mothership. I build no defences and just let the first wave of fighters attach me.

I really dislike how vayger loose rank if you do poorly in a battle. Playing against a friend, i did poorly in the first confrontation (after we jointly decided not to use cruise missiles) then i had no rank, could not build anything except frigates as i was limited to 10 officers. I couldnt defend against his first destroyer wave. Game over.
It reallty shortens the game and is no fun.

Other than these, i think the mod is awsome. Cheers.

PS, this is all on 6.3. Has either of these been adressed in 6.4 / 6.5?

Alkezo

10th Feb 08, 8:45 PM

I really dislike how vayger loose rank if you do poorly in a battle.
This occurs with both races. I play both races to try out different strategies and have some variation with playing.

And the Vaygr Cruise Missiles has already been addressed.

-Ion Cannons still sometimes seems bugged. At times it does normal damage, but at others it will do insignificant damage.

-I had a few instances of Sniper Frigates shooting themselves in 6.3, I'm not sure if that was fixed or not.

-Love the new Missile Platforms for the Hiigarian.

Nerb

11th Feb 08, 4:44 AM

Ok, just played as Hiigaran and found it incredibly easy. Resourse collection seemed much much easier. Is there a collection rate difference between the two sides?

SlashesWithClaw

11th Feb 08, 8:43 AM

Just downloaded the latest version of Complex yesterday; I had 5.5 previously. Just tried a quick simple game first to see what is new and already found a minor bug or something I do not understand. When you mouse over a Scavenger or Refinery it shows a number involving RU Fusion. However, I have no idea what this number is supposed to be. It does not correspond to my annual income, nor does it correspond to that individual units production; I was only at level one (five RU every five seconds) and it was jumping twenty RUs at a time.

Also, a minor graphical bug, my badge is upside down on the dreadnaught.

I like the changes Vyger Flagship, adding the small defense missiles and twin cannons was perfect.

I also agree with some opinions that a suicide ship does not fit the Higs well. It should launch the nukes and have a really long reload time.

Finally, you should have an InvisionFree forum instead of having all discussion in one thread; it would make talking about Complex a lot easier.

After I play some more serious skirmishes I will give more comments and opinion.

schnipsl

11th Feb 08, 10:50 AM

hi,

i'm playing complex since version 5.5 and really love it, i think it is one of the best mods out there.

I just encountered a slight issue with version 6.x, compared to 5.5.

In 5.5 when playing against an expert ai player (vaygr), it was a really tough battle. It was really hard to keep defenses (hiigaran) up against the mass of enemy vessels that were approaching, always hitting "pause" for giving commands to save time :)

Now in 6.3 and 6.4 battling the expert vaygr ai is rather relaxed. The first attack wave comes around year ten, maybe 20 fighter squadrons, which my defenses at that time can almost blast away before they can fire a single shot....

Later on when i already have vortexes or battlecruiser he starts to build destroyers und moves them around on the map rather aimlessly. I tried two maps so far and it was always like this.
the remote monitor shows that the ai has the maximum number of resources (about 105000) and is not even building a shipyard.

To end the battle i send out probes to see everything and one of my vortexes to kill everything.

Well never getting a scratch and only one vortex being required to defeat an expert ai player is a little, well boring...

Question is, has the ai been significantly weekend for 6.x, or do i just have to change some settings to get the strong ai back? :)

Alkezo

11th Feb 08, 11:15 AM

Ok, just played as Hiigaran and found it incredibly easy. Resourse collection seemed much much easier. Is there a collection rate difference between the two sides?
The best way to find out which side has a higher rate is to start a map as one side then start again as the other side. However the Vaygr are better in resourcing in the beginning mainly due to cheaper ships, lower maintenance, and building faster. The Hiigarians pull ahead endgame as they have access to higher tier resource upgrades.

I also agree with some opinions that a suicide ship does not fit the Higs well. It should launch the nukes and have a really long reload time.
While it doesn't fit very well, taking it out will only be self defeating and making it fire nuclear missiles would require remodelling and reHUDing the Juggernaut. I'm not too sure all of behgins' team is still there since a lot of his projects that were cancelled were models. It's probably best to just keep it there.

Question is, has the ai been significantly weekend for 6.x, or do i just have to change some settings to get the strong ai back?
The A.I. has actually been improved to make them much better. There's a script that determines their personality. So you much of gotten a A.I. that just builds fighters. That's the problem though. Sometimes you just get a A.I. that only builds fighters and you just completely wipe them out. Now the enemy will even attack your Mothership from behind. The last match I played the enemy had Battlecruisers before I did. Thankfully they were too busy fighting eachother. Then they decided to work together to take me out. I almost lost but I managed to pull through. Needless to say, if A.I. gives me a run for my money then I have to say its pretty good.

schnipsl

11th Feb 08, 11:21 AM

So what are the chances of getting which ai then, as i said i played two different maps and the ai behaved exactly the same.
Maybe it is also a map related thing? can you maybe give me the name of the map where the ai built battlecruisers early, so i can try that one out?

SlashesWithClaw

11th Feb 08, 12:36 PM

What program is used to make the 3D models? Blender? Strata? Studio Max? Maya?

Nerb

11th Feb 08, 3:44 PM

Alkezo... theres no way vayger is easier at the start! Their collectors are cheaper but they definately collect slower. Proof of this is the first AI attack when playing Hiigaran is year 10 or so, and year 3 when playing Vaygar. Hiigaran collect much easier.

Pete J

11th Feb 08, 3:45 PM

Sithicus said:

Guys, I've build those 3 nuclear launcher on the station but it seems that its not launching those warheads.... ???

You need to manually fire them. Either use the icon in the special abilities menu (bottom left) or use the shortcut ('z' I think).

They are awesome! almost all capital ships go down after two hits. Unfortunately the fortress always seems to hit itself with one.

Alkezo

11th Feb 08, 5:06 PM

So what are the chances of getting which ai then, as i said i played two different maps and the ai behaved exactly the same.
Unless beghins changed the way the A.I. is scripted, the map has nothing to do with what determines the A.I.'s personality. If I really wanted to I could decompile the file and check the possibilities... but I'm not a script writer so it would be hard to find where that equation might be.

What program is used to make the 3D models? Blender? Strata? Studio Max? Maya?
Relic has a plugin for Maya for the sole purpose of Homeworld 2. Try googling Relic Network Development and search around for that.

Alkezo... theres no way vayger is easier at the start! Their collectors are cheaper but they definately collect slower. Proof of this is the first AI attack when playing Hiigaran is year 10 or so, and year 3 when playing Vaygar. Hiigaran collect much easier.
They may very well be true but you have to consider everything the Hiigarian need to build. The cost of building and maintaining the Crew Station and Research far outweighs any benefits the Hiigarians may have over resourcing.
And how is attacking in different years proof? If you mean by the Vaygr A.I. attacking earlier than Hiigarian then that would lead me to believe that either the Vaygr A.I. focuses more on offensive ships than resourcing ships or that they do indeed have superior resourcing capabilities. If you mean by the player being either race, that has nothing to do with what the A.I. decides. I believe what determines when an A.I. will attack is based on the size of his target's fleet. However that also depends on how beghins scripted it.

Now to bring up something else. Does anyone else experience jumpiness as the game progresses? In the beginning its not noticeable, but as the game goes on it begins to be "laggy." Up to a point where it starts becoming unplayable, which is a little later than when everyone has Battlecruisers and such. If you are having this problem do you have a dual core CPU? I have a 2.01GH dual core and I use ICEAffinity for most of my games to fix any "out of sync" issues they may have due to my motherboard not clocking my CPU correctly. If no one else is having this problem then it may very well be that my 1GB RAM is not enough.

SlashesWithClaw

11th Feb 08, 6:35 PM

I just tried to get resources from one of the huge pieces of debris floating around. I must be doing it wrong though. I thought I was supposed to capture it with a Marine/Infiltration Frigate and then scuttle it to get a debris field that I could then collect. However, when I did that I lost forty-five honor for blowing up the big debris piece. It said I had –45 in combat.

LordRevan

11th Feb 08, 7:23 PM

is there a change log for all the new versions of v6.*'s? someone asked earlier, like 50 pages ago, but i dont think there was a reply, anyone?

motiv-8

11th Feb 08, 8:27 PM

In the beginning its not noticeable, but as the game goes on it begins to be "laggy." Up to a point where it starts becoming unplayable, which is a little later than when everyone has Battlecruisers and such. If you are having this problem do you have a dual core CPU?

Yes! I'm running a Core 2 Duo 6750 2.66GHz and a 8800GT ... For a long while the game runs flawlessly, and then all of a sudden it gets ridiculously, annoyingly choppy.

Nerb

11th Feb 08, 9:49 PM

I have a 4200+ and 7900GT and it runs flawlessly.

Alkezo, my concern is that at the start of the game, vaygr is extremely difficult because their mining rate is so slow (its 3 per 5 seconds compared to Hiigarans 5 per 5 seconds. Thats 60% faster resourse collecting for hiigaran.)

Later in the game theres no problem and if you start with a heap of RU's theres no problem. But on Complex normal, its impossible for vaygr to defend against an early attacking hiigaran player.

Maybe flak frigates are too powerful? since it makes vaygr fighters useless.

Ahto

12th Feb 08, 1:04 AM

[QUOTE]
In the beginning its not noticeable, but as the game goes on it begins to be "laggy." Up to a point where it starts becoming unplayable, which is a little later than when everyone has Battlecruisers and such. If you are having this problem do you have a dual core CPU?

Yes! I'm running a Core 2 Duo 6750 2.66GHz and a 8800GT ... For a long while the game runs flawlessly, and then all of a sudden it gets ridiculously, annoyingly choppy.

- I am using 4 GHz and 1.1 GB RAM, 7500 for graphic and Intel IV chip. When you play, disable Complex Help (by default, it's on). I found that after I disabled it, my game got much faster.

- And I have a problem. I changed the research stats and after that, I'm getting almost nothing on my research score. Is the score connected to the amount of RUs spent on research? Because it's definitely not connected to the actual researching!

- Yesterday I played one-on-one with a Vaygr opponent and used the Fortress again. I hyperspaced it to the front with 6 destroyers and they laid waste to the Vaygr. The Fortress wasn't equipped with nothing more than rapid sweeper. But it's main purpose was to provide support with Patchers and Drones - destroyers with a Fotress is a power to really recon with!

- About the resourcing. I have played with Vaygr and Hiigaran. Hiigaran are ridiculously helpless in the beginning. To get the whole resourcing on line and start building some basic defenses, it takes insanely large amount of RUs. But, the Hiigarans are tough. Vaygr Flagship is like a lumbering behemoth with no teeth whithout platform support. I confronted the enemy and I was attacked from another front. I lost my Flagship. So, the game is still balanced. Hiigaran research is what gives them the additional resourcing capabilities, nothing else.

beghins

12th Feb 08, 2:41 AM

OK we've encountered some problems with new Nuclear Bomb launchers on the Hiigaran Command Fortress, new Hiigaran Missile Turrets need balancing too, also other few improvements have been added, so the 6.5 available soon (2-3 days).
Thanks, Beghins.

DragonRR

12th Feb 08, 6:06 AM

I managed to get time to play one full game 1x Hig (me) vs 1x Hig (Hard AI). Impressed with the AI, it put up a very tough fight for a long time. The only issue I did notice was that after I fought past the AI's attacks near my Mothership the AI seemed to give up.

I did save and reload and wonder if there might be a save issue?

Alkezo

12th Feb 08, 9:20 AM

Yes! I'm running a Core 2 Duo 6750 2.66GHz and a 8800GT ... For a long while the game runs flawlessly, and then all of a sudden it gets ridiculously, annoyingly choppy.
I thought that dual core would be a good idea when I picked out the parts for my gaming PC. Unfortunately some motherboards don't fully support dual core CPUs and its near impossible to find out which ones do support them. There's a problem where some motherboards don't activate the cores at the same time, thus causing a time skip between the two. The skip becomes more noticeable as time progresses. There's a program that's called ICEAffinity that pretty much forces my CPU to only use one of the cores. This fixed the problem with other games but I'm still having the "choppy" performance in Complex. My reason for posting this topic is to see if its RAM related or dual core related. Complex may include many memory leaks which sucks up RAM as the game goes on. If you ever play Warcraft III memory leaks weren't fixed in the GUI triggers so only the good maps had custom code.

I have a 4200+ and 7900GT and it runs flawlessly.

Alkezo, my concern is that at the start of the game, vaygr is extremely difficult because their mining rate is so slow (its 3 per 5 seconds compared to Hiigarans 5 per 5 seconds. Thats 60% faster resourse collecting for hiigaran.)

Later in the game theres no problem and if you start with a heap of RU's theres no problem. But on Complex normal, its impossible for vaygr to defend against an early attacking hiigaran player.

Maybe flak frigates are too powerful? since it makes vaygr fighters useless.
Is it dual core? What is your RAM? I'm pretty sure its not graphics intensive as even if there are no ships on your screen. This kind of lag has a different feel to it than graphics lag or internet lag.

Ahto pretty much has this down but I went to check for the specific stats. The Vaygr Collectors have 5 Collection/sec, 250 hold, 20 dump/sec, and 200 movement. Hiigarians' have 4 collection/sec, 300 hold, 20 dump/sec, and 167 movement. It seems pretty balanced to me.

Yes flak frigates tear through fighters, but Vaygr get Heavy Missile Frigate as their starting frigate, so that is also balanced.

- I am using 4 GHz and 1.1 GB RAM, 7500 for graphic and Intel IV chip. When you play, disable Complex Help (by default, it's on). I found that after I disabled it, my game got much faster.

- And I have a problem. I changed the research stats and after that, I'm getting almost nothing on my research score. Is the score connected to the amount of RUs spent on research? Because it's definitely not connected to the actual researching!
I always have the Complex help off. You have about the same RAM as I do so it may not be a problem with RAM. Perhaps beghins could explain the problem. If beghins isn't sure then it may mean ICEAffinity doesn't work for Homeworld 2. :(

I'm pretty sure the Research Score is tied to the amount spent to research it since I noticed I get more Research points from techs that take longer to complete.

-I'm gonna have to say the Vaygr Command Fortress is still lacking. It's like a giant indestructible brick that has no firepower (to effectively defend against Capital ships larger than Destroyers).

-Laser Cannons don't add to the attack power of the Vaygr Battleship. I noticed this when I had one fully upgraded and another that was done building everything except the Laser Cannons and they had the same attack power.

-I found out Artillery Frigates can't use the Hyperspace Gate. I'm not sure if this was intentional or not though.

MaxTech

12th Feb 08, 9:51 AM

First off I want to express the greatest thanks to Beghins for his work on this Complex mod. Has anyone done sort of tech tree documentation yet? I mean has anyone written anything as a guide what is required for each technology? What each technology enables as far as units, improvements for units, and later technologies and then to show those links in an easily readable format. If not then would it be possible to create one?

Fo®Saken

12th Feb 08, 12:41 PM

There is none so far, but I am thinking of making one after the last of the 6 series has been released. It makes no sense of making one while there is still a lot of stuff that is being changed, added and tweaked.

motiv-8

12th Feb 08, 2:14 PM

I thought that dual core would be a good idea when I picked out the parts for my gaming PC. Unfortunately some motherboards don't fully support dual core CPUs and its near impossible to find out which ones do support them.

Which motherboard do you have? I'm running a Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3R and as far as I know this problem doesn't exist, or at least has not manifested.

As far as memory leaks are concerned, what you can do is open up Resource Monitor from the Task Manager (assuming you have WinVista) and leave it open during play. When you exit the game, pay attention to the section under Memory called 'Hard Faults/sec' ... This is basically how many times the Page File is accessed, which is what causes stutter and/or slowdowns. If the program has a memory leak, this number should increase steadily.

Fasta

12th Feb 08, 3:59 PM

I played all HomeWorld releases. Was a surprise to me there was mods around until a few weeks ago. Didnt had any ideia the source code was released. :wtf2:

I have now several mods installed.
And iam amazed by the number of mods..

I want to congrats you guys from complex, because amoung so many good mods around.. yours can be even better IMO.

Tanks for your hard work, and keep the good job! :awesome:

Jean=A=Luc

12th Feb 08, 4:11 PM

Upside down decal on the Dreadnought.
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/4459/omgyc4.jpg

Ion Frigates seam to do normal damage but their destroyer counterpart still flops.

Is it just me or are Vagyr destroyers just sooooooo much better than Hig. ones? Mines & missiles just tear apart the Hiigaran destroyers.

Nerb

12th Feb 08, 7:27 PM

Alkezo, my system is dual core and has 2gb memory. The stutter problem definately sounds like memory. I have my page file on a seperate hdd, dont know if that would help?

Ok, so the stats sound even. I just felt it was much harder to start as vaygr. Maybe its just me.

Naax

12th Feb 08, 7:34 PM

This mod made Homeworld so much more interesting, but i would really like to see some improvement for fighters and corvetes, i find them really useles right now. I usually just skip them because flak, asault and missle frigates make short work of them in no time. Also they are useles against fleets of enemies because of colisions.

Fo®Saken

13th Feb 08, 5:10 AM

That collision thing seems to be a real problem, also the uselessnes of smaller craft in late game. Maybe there should be a research option in late game -like engineering division level for the higs- to make the fighters and corvettes more cheap. That would make them much more usefull, especially if you are running low on recources and want to take over an enemy recource spot, but have to little recources to create a decent strike group.

Ahto

13th Feb 08, 6:40 AM

To Alkezo -> I found the problem. The research by Hiigarans is tied down to RUs. There's a small file (cannot name it now, though) which is like Excel formula "if this then do that". I changed Destroyer and Ion Destroyer Chassis technology value from around 2500 to 5555 leaving the time to reasearch intact (I lowered it), and I had about 40 research points immediately. The second module for Hiigarans opens when you have spent 64 000 RUs, or so I understand the file I found, and third model is something way over 100 000 RUs.

My H2 chops just a little, and also after capships are built. I suspect that the game engine "dislikes" non-native models or add-ons and this is why their integration to the game makes the whole thing lag. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't really know.

To Jean-A-Luc -> No, Vaygr destroyers aren't as tough as Hiigaran. They get three upgrades but these are applied to all capships. When Vaygr destroyers reach their highest HP count which is aabout 150 000 then Hiigaran destroyers are almost 200 000. What annoys me, personally, is that these stupid destroyers launch volley of milles AFTER they're destroyed. It's like, they go up in a spectacular boom and then, missiles rise from the dust. Arghhh...

And beghins - there are many maps on Complex that don't have AI supported. Are you planning developing them further? I've played about all maps now, and I know all the corners and hiding places, dustcoulds and where the enemy is.

But huge thanks anyway! It's a tremendous amount of work done!

SlashesWithClaw

13th Feb 08, 10:47 AM

No one has replied to my problem yet.

I tried to get resources from one of the huge pieces of debris floating around. I must be doing it wrong though. I thought I was supposed to capture it with a Marine/Infiltration Frigate and then scuttle it to get a debris field that I could then collect. However, when I did that I lost forty-five honor for blowing up the big debris piece. It said I had –45 in combat.

What is the correct way?

beghins

13th Feb 08, 10:49 AM

I tried to get resources from one of the huge pieces of debris floating around. I must be doing it wrong though. I thought I was supposed to capture it with a Marine/Infiltration Frigate and then scuttle it to get a debris field that I could then collect. However, when I did that I lost forty-five honor for blowing up the big debris piece. It said I had –45 in combat.

What is the correct way?

That's the correct way, but you've found a bug, fixed in 6.5

Alkezo

13th Feb 08, 11:24 AM

Which motherboard do you have? I'm running a Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3R and as far as I know this problem doesn't exist, or at least has not manifested.
I'm using an Asus A8N-SLI Premium with a AMD Athlon 64x2 Dual Core Processor 3800+.

This mod made Homeworld so much more interesting, but i would really like to see some improvement for fighters and corvetes, i find them really useles right now. I usually just skip them because flak, asault and missle frigates make short work of them in no time. Also they are useles against fleets of enemies because of colisions.
Fighters and Corvettes have various uses but just sending them off to attack a ship that was design to destroy those types of ships isn't the best idea. Every ship has their special taste even beyond Fighters/Corvettes/Frigates... etc. You just need to counter with which ship. The only problem that does exist is the collision between ships and thats something that isn't supposed to happen. One of the reasons I hated PDS was the fact that a few bombers could take out my Battlecruiser. Realistic, yes. Balanced, no. Why fighter's do become pretty much useless once you get Battlecruisers, you can still use them to destroy subsystems while the enemy focuses their fire on your larger ships. Destroying the engine subsystem on a Vortex would utterly hinder it. Speaking of smaller ships, I used to use Multilance/Khopesh Corvettes to destroy Frigates/Destroyers but now they seem to do less damage.

And beghins - there are many maps on Complex that don't have AI supported. Are you planning developing them further? I've played about all maps now, and I know all the corners and hiding places, dustcoulds and where the enemy is.
The maps that aren't A.I. supported are ones that have nebulae included in them. Unless beghins can make a script where the A.I. avoids the nebula clouds then they will never be A.I. supported. I do believe that one of the maps have just one line of nebula clouds going down the middle of the map so the A.I. would be pretty dumb.

motiv-8

13th Feb 08, 1:37 PM

I'm using an Asus A8N-SLI Premium with a AMD Athlon 64x2 Dual Core Processor 3800+.

There's a patch that AMD released to address issues with dual-core, I'm not exactly sure where to find it other than the AMD website, you could try googling it..

Alkezo

13th Feb 08, 4:31 PM

There's a patch that AMD released to address issues with dual-core, I'm not exactly sure where to find it other than the AMD website, you could try googling it..
Oh god, that patch pissed me off so much. I tried it and it just perpetually restarted my PC. I had to go through so much trouble to get through that.

Nerb

13th Feb 08, 7:34 PM

i think the only problem with fighters/corvets is the number of crew they require. Corvets have just as many crew as frigates. I had a swarm of corvets take out a juggernaught in seconds last night.... is the juggernaught less HP in 6.4?

motiv-8

13th Feb 08, 8:16 PM

Oh god, that patch pissed me off so much. I tried it and it just perpetually restarted my PC. I had to go through so much trouble to get through that.

Wow, sorry bro ... I wish I could be of more help. Have you talked to Asus about the problem?

shadowman14

13th Feb 08, 8:50 PM

hello all,
i have vista and im trying to run this mod,
however,
every time i run the mod i get a DEP error,
pls advise

motiv-8

13th Feb 08, 8:58 PM

Are you running the program as an Administrator?

shadowman14

13th Feb 08, 9:42 PM

yes, and after it suggesting that i turn off dep for that program, it will not let me,
also i have tried backward compatability settings

ok well fixed that,
but it really dislikes my nvida gforce 8600 gt graphics card..

any suggestions?

Alkezo

13th Feb 08, 10:25 PM

but it really dislikes my nvida gforce 8600 gt graphics card..
The 8000 series are known for a lot of problems especially with Vista.

shadowman14

13th Feb 08, 10:39 PM

=/ that really sucks,
i love hw2 so much,
i wonder y there is such a problem with new technology and this game

Ahto

14th Feb 08, 2:25 AM

Naax -> corvettes are superb against resourcing operations. I usually have 5 squadrons of Pulsar Corvettes and Gunship Corvettes (while playing Hiigaran, of course) and send them randomly out to harass AI's resourcing operations. Carrier is too weak to withstand good beating and while it awaits support from larger ships from afar, it'll be dead. And then I just take off to any carrier ship for repairs. Good tactics and earns you honour points much faster, too!

I have a problem - the game freezes frequently, with different maps and different amount of players. I've noticed that when I scroll with my cursor, it freezes when reaches "new units", like yesterday I had. The AI sent a Battleship (Vaygr) against me, I captured it and after I looked what was going on with my MS, and then scrolled back to the Battleship (it needed repairs), the game froze. Is this a bug?

Naax

14th Feb 08, 4:33 AM

Alkezo -> The problem is that everything is good against them, all u need is few Asault/higarian missle frigates with your fleet and they are gone. At least the missles from Capital ships and Heavy missle ftigates should be redesigned to not be able to hit fighters and corvetes. Its strange that those big ass missles used to take down frigates/capital ships have the speed and manoevrability to hit such small ships.

Atho -> I doubth that 5 types of fighters and 5 types of corvetes were designed to harass enemy resourcing operations.

There could be a high level tech upgrade for fighters/corvetes called tough hull that reduces damage from expolsions.

Ahto

14th Feb 08, 9:47 AM

Naax -> It is possible! I have done it and it works. Though yes, before the carrier explodes, it's wide to flee because the fireball can eat up all these squadrons!

Fafnir

14th Feb 08, 10:02 AM

I've got the same sort of freezing problem as Ahto, though I haven't noticed that it happens when I do anything in particular.

As great as 6.x is, it seems horribly unstable. I'm rarely able to run a game without at least one random crash. Anyone else having this problem? I never had any problems with the 5.5 release.

Anyone got any ideas on how to mitigate these instabilities?

Fo®Saken

14th Feb 08, 11:40 AM

These problems are not related to the game but to your pc. I have a computer that is a few years old and almost exactly meets the recommended systen specs. I have never had any crashes with complex, even with stuff that beghins confirms as crashes.

Fafnir

14th Feb 08, 12:09 PM

Hm. I've got a brand-new machine.. I suppose I'll fool around with the drivers and such, then.

Jean=A=Luc

14th Feb 08, 12:09 PM

Are platforms supposed to be able to move more than once?

Fo®Saken

14th Feb 08, 12:58 PM

Not really in the original... But they can do that in complex.

Elred

14th Feb 08, 1:00 PM

No, and I've noticed it too: Hiigarans platforms can move again and again, it's easier to create a great wall to destroy every enemy fleet :D

But I think it should be fixed :) Or instead, make ALL platforms movable, because massives turrets (and maybe Vaygr turrets) can't move more than one time.

Fasta

14th Feb 08, 1:10 PM

Hm. I've got a brand-new machine.. I suppose I'll fool around with the drivers and such, then.

I have to turn off my AntiVirus and also stop punkbuster processes otherwise i have CTD.

Fafnir

14th Feb 08, 1:40 PM

I'll give that a shot, Fasta, thanks. I did an uninstall and reinstall, updated my card drivers, my BIOS, everything.. still got a random crash.

Jmendes

14th Feb 08, 1:57 PM

Fo®Saken

14th Feb 08, 2:47 PM

That is really interesting. It might be a bug of some sort, but it is more likely that someting in the research list for these settings is just missing. @Elred - I do not think that massive turrets should be so mobile, they are to powerfull for that. Since there is no crew needed for them, players could just mass then and own every cap ship a strike group encounters. By the way, why do they lack a crew? Other platforms need crew to. Also, crew cell go to command fortresses too if I remember correctly from my last match. There is no point for them going to the cf if it is unable to produce anyting that needs a crew.

Jean=A=Luc

14th Feb 08, 4:33 PM

Ok then, platforms really shouldn't be able to move more than once imo, if they can they're basically frigates.

Ahto

15th Feb 08, 4:11 AM

Forsaken -> I thinkthat these problems of freezing and chopping are related to the game, not the PC. When I played H2 without any modding to it, I never experienced any of this! It all happened while playing the mod. And only with Complex (I've played other mods as well). So I really think it's game-related. But it doesn't mean I don't like the mod! It annoys me to reset my PC after the freeze but it's like the old saying - you cannot live with it but you also cannot live without it! :-D

Ah, and another thing - can anyone tell me how to make the files from H2 .big file into something readable? It's all gibberish and such. I know it's possible since beghins made it. Unfbig is no use, I've tried many ways, to make a correct LUA but it doesn't seem to convert anyhting, except the .big files. I'm really wanting to change the unitcap for H2 missions.

BurningFeetMan

15th Feb 08, 4:24 AM

I updated my Geforce 8800 GTS (windows XP) drivers to Ver 169, along with the latest 6.4 complex mod.

I noticed an odd jerkiness-jumpiness of screen scrolling/panning that I hadn't encountered before. It got progressively worse as the game went on.

My game was cut short by the AI absolutely kicking my butt though. Good job on those tweaks. I was all like "EAT MY DESTROYER... oh wait, you... have 3 of them..."

Anyway, hopefully I'm not the only one with the jerky screen panning, and it can be fixed. :)

beghins

15th Feb 08, 8:58 AM

No, freezes and crashes are related to your PC and your HW/SW configuration, obviously you play H2 without problems but Complex is not H2 so you need more HW or/and at least a PC clear from unuseful tasks and background programs like antivirus and the like.
Also the last nvidia working driver is the 163.75, last nvidia drivers cause graphic imperfections and may be your freezes.
Below one of my last posts about freezes/crashes report:

No more report to CTD or frozes, if you esperience those you've problems with your pc configuration, drivers and so on:
I understand you play H2 without problem but Complex require more HW since first years of game, if you want to play without crash with a low-medium machine try 1 vs 1.
I play at 2560x1600 antialiasing 16x anisotropic 16x vertical sync max detail and never encounter crash or frozes, my pc is very powerful, updated to last software and driver and clean from unuseful tasks; the same story for my second pc and it's not so powerful and mount another video card.
The only crash I consider is the "out of sync" and it happen in multiplayer match, if you encounter it please post your situation and the related game phase.
Thanks, Beghins
anyway the definitive 6.5 out on Sunday

schnipsl

15th Feb 08, 9:11 PM

still about freezing, though this might be driver related :)

i have vista ultimate 64 on a core2duo 3ghz 8800gts and 4gb ram. the game runs always smooth, i also dont have slowdowns later on.

only problem i have is, as soon as i get close to a mining station, ( yeah i also have graphics errors on these), the game almost collapses, the fps drops below 1 fps and it feels like the game would freeze. It doesn't crash, and as soon as i get away from the mining station it runs all smooth again, but maps where the mining station ist close to the starting fleet are unplayable for me.

i have the latest nvidia drivers, and so it might be these, but i just wanted to ask if anyone who can extract the model from the big file, or maybe one of the modmakers themselves, could check if there are really no geometry or uv problems with the mining station. Maybe double faces or edges, or problems in the uv layout. Or if texture are maybe not square, and the texture's hight and width are not a power of 2. The dimensions should be one of these values: 2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024. Also if the texture is compressed, maybe it is in a format the hw-engine doesn't like? i dont know the format hw2 uses, is it .dds or something else? If it is .dds maybe use another directx-compression type?

maybe anyone can look into this, i only know how to use maya, max and so on, but i don't know how to extract the models from the big files. :)

Alkezo

16th Feb 08, 12:16 PM

Im on 6.4 and I´ve just played as Vaygr vs 1 AI Higaran, honour sensitivity set to high, starting honour points as 15, and got up to Commander level (80) but my crew/officers limit never got past the initial 175/10... the recruit crew/officers upgrade did NOT show up in research. It worked just fine in 6.1, is this a bug?
It was most likely a bug. Try it again and see if it has the problem again.

Ok then, platforms really shouldn't be able to move more than once imo, if they can they're basically frigates.
Unmanned ships are one-shot movements while manned ships are able to move around freely. They are DEFINATELY not like frigates. Their firepower is insignificant compared to most frigate class ships. Except the new Missile Platform. Try 10 Sniper Frigates v.s. 10 Pulsar Platforms, or even 20 of them. Making one-shot movements would make them even more unwanted. As it is, platforms are very weak and can be taken out with a pretty small task force. Once the enemy has frigates you can forget your platforms being as useful as they once were. Well they are pretty good targets while your mothership destroys the enemy.

I noticed an odd jerkiness-jumpiness of screen scrolling/panning that I hadn't encountered before. It got progressively worse as the game went on.
Sounds very similar to the problem I was having playing Earth 2160. It was my CPU though and not my GPU. Damn companies being lazy with manufacturing...

My game was cut short by the AI absolutely kicking my butt though. Good job on those tweaks. I was all like "EAT MY DESTROYER... oh wait, you... have 3 of them..."
:lol: Gotta love that. "Yes! I have a fleet of Sniper Frigates to take out their Destroyers... damn they have Battlecruisers."

People please realize that Beghins is not a developer working on Windows or working for some big programming company. (Is he?) He made this mod as a hobby. Though he most likely works in a field of scripting, he's not going to be able to fix every single bug for so many different possibilities of machines that run it. Compatibility requires a lot of testing and I don't think he has 50 PCs running HW2 at his house just to test compatibility. Most of you may not realize how much goes on with hardware and software conflicts.

Teradoc

16th Feb 08, 1:51 PM

Hello to all,

this is my first post here . I stumbelt across HW2 Comlex last week and i must say i`m very impressed. What you all have done here is a very good job !!! Thats the way HW2 should be played...
My other favorite is the Warlords MOD, but Complex is far more tactical. In short words... *wonderful*

But i had problems in LAN. in 3 of 4 games i had a sync error.
Did you know were the problems came from ? The Drivers of all computers were up to date...

All games are 1vs1 with no cpu players...

*sorry for my poor english i need training*

Greetings Teradoc

Jean=A=Luc

16th Feb 08, 2:04 PM

Unmanned ships are one-shot movements while manned ships are able to move around freely. They are DEFINATELY not like frigates. Their firepower is insignificant compared to most frigate class ships. Except the new Missile Platform. Try 10 Sniper Frigates v.s. 10 Pulsar Platforms, or even 20 of them. Making one-shot movements would make them even more unwanted. As it is, platforms are very weak and can be taken out with a pretty small task force. Once the enemy has frigates you can forget your platforms being as useful as they once were. Well they are pretty good targets while your mothership destroys the enemy.

Then why have platforms at all? For static defenses to make any sense they have to beat mobile units for cost, hence platforms should be buffed and given one-shot movement.

Right now they are like frigates, not because they're as strong as them, but because they are basically a slow moving unmaneuverable ship with features that are simply very...well, frigate-like. If you want to go into detail you can say that they're between corvettes and frigates when it comes to mass/firepower but their low speed pushes them a little to the frigate side imo. The point is that, as they are now, they're redundant.

Fo®Saken

16th Feb 08, 2:44 PM

I have only used platforms once, but I scuttled them when I found out how useless they were. By the way, this only goes for the higgaran side, the vaygr platforms are balanced. When you use them in large numbers you can even leave the ships they guard alone, since they give you more then enough time to call in back-up. In combination with hyperspace platforms they are perfect. From the decompiled big file I can see there have been plans for a hiigaran version, but this seems to be, sadly, cancelled.

Elred

16th Feb 08, 2:44 PM

I have to notice a great bug!

Vayrg Multilance Corvette show they do no damage, that was already noticed. But when I tested them, they REALLY do no damage: they're supposed to be effective against Cap' and Frigates. I sent my 10 Multilance on an only enemy destroyer (Hiigaran). After a few minutes, I come back to see what's going on with that fight that took too long time, and :eek:

The Hiigaran Destroyer still had its health bar full, and the half of my Multilance vanished :bigwave: ...

It would be great to fix that, because I love Multilance's skin ^^

Kaelis

16th Feb 08, 7:14 PM

Hello there.

First off, let me say this is a wonderful mod, it made me go back to playing HW2, so big thanks for that and keep up the good work!

Now, id like to share a little test i did concerning crashes and alleged problems with pc configuration, drivers, etc:

Recently i had to clean three computers, which basically means wiping their hard drives clean and installing everything again. But after taking care of Windows XP, all the drivers, mandatory updates and DirectX, before moving on to software, ive installed HW2 with Complex, to check how it performs on differing hardware combinations. Needless to say, all three machines run stock HW2 flawlessly. However, two of them experienced seemingly random crashes during Complex matches.

Configurations used for this test:
A64 3200+, 2GB RAM, Radeon 9600 - this one didnt crash
A64 X2 4600+, 2GB RAM, GF 7900GT
Core 2 Duo E4600, 2GB RAM, GF 8800GTS

DJ Die

16th Feb 08, 8:21 PM

yeah it seems GF cards cause those crashes proly same reason as those black/white striped textures

maddeath

16th Feb 08, 9:05 PM

Found some additional stuff that bothers me, according to 6.4.

1) Vipers change their targets to whatever they approach. Or more precisely - if they come close to any enemy cap ship along their trip, they are likely to attack it. Thats quite an annoying habit.
Also, why do they always attack the center of the ships side? It always annoys the hell out of me when they arrive at the target and then slowly fly around it, until they have reached their desired "landing point".
And finally, is it on purpose that they dont seem to scratch the flagship? Just askin this time, fine by me.

2) I too have now experienced the ion bug. Buit 2 ion destroyers (which I hadnt used before) and had them fend off frigates. I found their performance very unsatisfying.

3) As someone already had mentioned, its odd that the battleship has ions. All this time those were a hiig specialty. I'd replace them with kinetic cannons of higher power.
Btw. Whats the damage rating of a fully equipped + upgraded battleship? I encountered it twice when its firepower was around 11k, which is hardly a match for a hiig bc and the vortex with its current 19k appears as a total ruler. The vortex might actually be overpowered this time, but I sure do love it now...

4) The chimera has no defenses. What the hell? Even such lousy pieces of scrap as refineries have guns. A huge station has none? Duh... I think it should even have fighter buiding capacities.

5) Minegun corvs are awesome. But they should fire their mines when dealing with frigs and whatnot just as they do when fightin things of their own size. It's odd when they dont use all they have when attacking bigger opponents.

6) The bc (hiig) uses some real strange maneuvers. Last time it even turned its back towards the enemy frigs it was fighting. OK, frigs are no opponents for a bc, but still, thats bad attitude.

7) I think that AI reconnaissance is lacking. Even the expert only uses one scout. Maybe its just me, as i love usin about 6 probes to secure a good overview, but that seems very lousy.

8) Frigs are still poor. I rarely build a few. They are quite costly and posess neither armor nor maneuverability to last. A 4th hull upgrade would be neat. And the ones able to shoot in several directions should have an upgrade that would let them maneuver around like smaller craft.

9) I'm still askin for a def field module. At least for yards and big carriers.

10) Anti-rocket/torpedo technologies should be available. Maybe some simple guns pulsar guns would be cool... But most of all, targetting intrusion to bring them off course to an extent. I'd use this to replace the power disruptor module, which appears very whacky to me, but I respect its importance when dealing with long range missiles.

11) Fighters are becoming obsolete later in the game. They could use a hull upgrade on engineering level.

12) Dead units keep on firing for long seconds (and battles are a matter of seconds on hw2) after their life expired, before the blast. Odd...
But an idea crossed my mind. How about letting whole shipwrecks stay behind sometimes? Or only when they were brought down by strike craft? This might improve strike crafts current flawed position. I find the possibility of retrieveing unfunctional, yet still complete, ships using resourcers and/or boarding frigs very interesting.

13) I still fail to see what unit experience does.

14) What exactly do the numbers on refineries and scavengers tell me? Fusion per game year?

15) Last time I attacked the vaygr flagship using a fully equipped vortex I experienced a very unpleasant surprise when the flagships lifebar remained full for long second or minutes even. It went down eventually tho...

16) Probes (at least in 6.3) seem to count towards crew somehow. I built some probes after my limit was almost reached and was amazed as my crew usage was 176/175.

17) How exactly do trade containers work? Tried them once in 5.5. They only work when you have allied players?

18) Manually building crew cells is pure annoyance.

As for the recent platform quarrel, I think mobile platforms are good news. Calling them frigs is hardly possible as platform speed is far below frigs. This also eliminates platform rushes.

That multilance issue seems to be ignored... Though I've never witnessed it, heh.

xxobot

16th Feb 08, 10:20 PM

beyond words and yet I will still say:
Holey Shit, this mod sooooo deserves a single player campagn! then it could be worthy of being called a sequel

ps. I would give my left leg for ANY of this mods content to use for my own evil uses [/end stupidity]

Fasta

17th Feb 08, 2:23 AM

"Holey Shit, this mod sooooo deserves a single player campagn"

Indeed, thats my opinion too.
HW is all about strategic. Complex strategic.

As i said before i have other Mods (Big files) available to play, but by far this one is my favorite.

IMHO this mod is the closest we have to HW3.
Kudos for the developer team and specially to Beghins.

:awesome:

EDIT: @MadDeath, some of your questions are debatable, others are very helpful sugestion. :)

Alkezo

17th Feb 08, 12:52 PM

Okay time for another long-ass post. This time I can't use the quote tags too many times because an administrator got mad at me... :screwy: So I'll have to use a different format.

Then why have platforms at all? For static defenses to make any sense they have to beat mobile units for cost, hence platforms should be buffed and given one-shot movement.

Right now they are like frigates, not because they're as strong as them, but because they are basically a slow moving unmaneuverable ship with features that are simply very...well, frigate-like. If you want to go into detail you can say that they're between corvettes and frigates when it comes to mass/firepower but their low speed pushes them a little to the frigate side imo. The point is that, as they are now, they're redundant.
If static defense was so much better than an attacking fleet then ever game would be a stale mate. But that's what the Command Fortress is there. It's bit, static, nearly indestructible, and very powerful (at least for the Hiigarians).
Gun and Pulsar Platforms has the firepower of a Corvette and the are static defense while being slower than a Battleship. Meaning they won't chase after an enemy and you can't really use them for quick changes in an enemy's strategy. Frigates have 200~ movement while Platforms have 40~. The Frigates can readily change their position according to the enemy to get better shots (for instance the Mothership is in the way). I still build at least 10 Pulsar Platforms to take out all the bombers they love to send at me. With their long range and unusual accuracy they are quite capable in taking out the Fighter squadrons while you focus on the bigger threat. So in reality there isn't anything related between Frigates and Platforms.

Vayrg Multilance Corvette show they do no damage, that was already noticed. But when I tested them, they REALLY do no damage
Hmm, I've noticed that too. I did think it was odd that the Storm Corvettes were being more effective while being cheaper... I've announced the damage shown as 0 many times but I guess it was never seen? :/

Found some additional stuff that bothers me, according to 6.4.
1) Its most likely because there is only one attachment point for the missiles on the models.
3) It's fine the way it is. Its more than likely that the Vaygr, seeing the power of the Hiigarian's Ion Cannons, created a prototype to be used on their newer chassis. I would venture to guess the different color would indicate to it being a prototype.
5) Agreed. They should fully utilize their abilities against all ships.
6) It's already been stated that Hiigarian Battlecruisers turn their back on the enemy, making the Ion Cannon useless.
7) That's because the A.I. doesn't need to use reconnaissance. The Scouts and Probes are there just to make it seem like they need them. In reality they would know what you are doing even without seeing you. This is in almost every RTS game out there. And when I play the A.I has about 2 Scouts at each enemy base.
8) Try using Sniper Frigates a long with your other ships. They are incredibly effective in numbers. Same goes with the Vaygr's Warfare Frigates now that they automatically fire their EMP cannons. Speaking of which, wouldn't that mean the Tulwar Frigates should fire their EMP automatically?
9) Actually a small field for Shipyards and Carriers would be interesting...
10) Never bothered with platforms have you... The Power Disruptor is very good to minimize the enemy's effectiveness.
11) Not much you can do about that. Bombers are still effective in destroying Subsystems. Fighters are still a good way to make a quick attack run on an undefended position, then retreating before reinforcements arrive.
12) I would assume that once a ship's hull has been damaged enough to cause a critical failure the crew would still be alive and fighting until their utter demise. Your idea seems interesting but it would be hard to implement. It would probably require tweaking with the engine to do that.
13) Unit Experience most likely increases their overall effectiveness.
14) The numbers represent the amount of fusion you are going to get at the end of the year. The amount will increase about every 5 seconds.
15) A minute and a second are very different... It seems ships have a little time where they take little to no damage while initially being hit. This may be the cause of the Ion bug.
16) I tested and they don't count to crew in 6.4.
17) In Complex 5.5, they were used to just generate RU between your own ships. In Complex 6 they are used to generate RU between you and your ally's ships.
18) I don't see anything wrong with making your own Crew Cells.

All in all, please test something before you post about it.

beghins

17th Feb 08, 12:55 PM

Complex 6.5 available.
I think it is the last of the 6 series.
At the moment we're thinking about the development of Complex 7; substantially it depend by the videogames market: if I find a good game I would like to play it, but, as usual, I suppose there's nothing that merit to be played, ideas!?

Jon

17th Feb 08, 1:54 PM

Sins of a Solar Empire hands down.

Jean=A=Luc

17th Feb 08, 1:57 PM

If static defense was so much better than an attacking fleet then ever game would be a stale mate...

The point of this isn't to prove that platforms are actually frigates. You can also call them "very slow corvettes" or "low health/firepower battleships", I don't care but moving makes them 'ships' not platforms. The "frigate" designation merely seamed like the best middle ground between those extremes.

The point is that, at least in my view, platforms currently have no distinct role. Anything a platform can do, a frigate or a corvette squadron can do better due to mobility.

Powerful (not overpowered) static defense wouldn't lead to stalemates because:

a) player who invests too much into static defenses has a smaller mobile force which can cost him map control (to some extent, depends)

b) we have artillery/sniper frigates that out range them

c) well, as you said, platforms are generally weak and pose little to no threat to large capital ships

For example, a missile platform would cost as much as a miss. frigate but have +50% health/firepower, essentially giving you 1.5 frigates for the price of 1, trade of is it can't move. Fair I think.

Only way for platforms to move imo, should be if they're pushed/towed by collectors/worker/salvage ships but that's another story.

Anyway, it's not that important, platforms are hardly of critical importance in the game and I can easily not build them if I don't like them, I just felt like pointing this out.

ps: Thanks for 6.5 Beghins. :)

Jon

17th Feb 08, 2:58 PM

I am absolutely pissed that the ion canon bug still has not been fixed after so many god damn versions. WHY?!?!?!?!?!?!? It is infuriating to see my investment go waste in purchasing the ion canon for battlecrusier. They are just worthless. Why hasnt it been fixed by now?! Are you not aware of it or is it simply to difficult to fix. At the very least reply with an answer please this is the sole nagging issue thats preventing me from fully enjoying this what otherwise would be an amazing mod.

Fo®Saken

17th Feb 08, 3:01 PM

Big woot to you and your team for 6.5 beghins! Now hop into a crew cell and leave this place to take a break and play a bit for yourselves. ;) p.s. If complex 7 might come out in the future, is there any hope to see a new race in that release then? I have the feeling that the existing races are almost perfect now, perhaps it is time for something new? I have some great ideas on implementing them in complex, just pm me sometime if you are interested, okay?

disclaimer

17th Feb 08, 3:28 PM

Jean=A=Luc

17th Feb 08, 4:12 PM

Didn't someone say that the BC ions worked ok in 6.4 (I'm aware we're talking about 6.5 now)? Most of the ion troubles were concerning the destroyer.

I just lost against hard Vagyr, sooo many destroyers, starting with 6.4 the AI (at least the Vagyr one) has been really challenging...but it was great while it lasted. :)

Vagyr destroyers are definitely superior to regular Hig destroyers from what I've seen, Higaarans need the ion ones to hold their own. Or maybe I could try a different strategy. :P

Jon

17th Feb 08, 5:13 PM

Well its more of the issue with the battlecursier pointing in the wrong direction when attacking, it would always point backwards attacking. So I might have referred to the wrong bug :lol: . It doesn't just affect the the ion cannon upgrade for the battlecursier but its entirety. I hate it cause u cant use all your weapons and worse is when the engines get shot up.

shadowman14

17th Feb 08, 10:09 PM

so any way to fix the game glitches we all seem to get using the newest nvida cards
i have a 8600gt personally
and i realllly want to play this game smoothly

Fo®Saken

18th Feb 08, 5:18 AM

Maybe you can use compatebility mode to run the game smoother. Just an idea, but it works for other games to.

Jean=A=Luc

18th Feb 08, 7:32 AM

Hmmm, there seams to be a 6.5.1 version up for download.

Fo®Saken

18th Feb 08, 8:00 AM

Now we have to download AGAIN... Oh well, I guess we should just be happy that beghins puts so much effort into creating this mod. ^^

beghins

18th Feb 08, 8:19 AM

6.5.1 available
If you have random crashes (zoom in/out on Crew Station and Research Station) this should fix it, otherwise the release is the same of 6.5

ricbar89

18th Feb 08, 10:44 AM

Can someone please explain what has happed to this mod, it used to be awesome one of the best mod i ever played on any game, it now seems to have gone utter crap. So i have a look to see what is new when I heard the new version was out, and there is awesome new stuff, i download it and start playing. All great, awesome work, can see a lot of time and effort has gone in and loved it. UNTILL i get attacked, so the Veyga (whatever) attack, no problem, but they attack again, then again, then again, then again, then again all with the same thing, frigates over and over again before i have had time to build a decent fleet? WTF is that meant to be fun? It comes down to my mother ship being surrounded with frigates right next to it (stupid, something I have never seen the AI do before) with me building a non stop stream of my own torpedo frigates only to find them completely useless. What have you done to there weapons? The things take about 300 torps to take out a single enemy frigate? It almost funny watching the fighting because it takes so long to take one of them out.

So what i want to know is there anyway of playing this once awesomely fun mod without a non-stop shitstream of the same ships being sent at me? Like an option in set up to change (im playing on normal settings) I really like the new stuff but feel forced to go back to 5.5 where the AI did more than one thing, and you had a bit of time to prepare.

By the way i have tried on normal and easy (i found normal easier?)

I really want to play this mod but am finding it impossible and stupidly predictable compared to the last version. Plus Hilgarian weapons are useless as they do so little damage and there are so many enemies. Or has the mod lost all tactical elements and turned into rush?

Anyway, it is a great mod apart from what im complaining about and before you bit my head off i wana say well done and thanks for the great games i have had (well until now). Can see lots of work has gone into it and the quality is the best of any Homeworld mod out there.

Fobolous

18th Feb 08, 11:16 AM

Wow what a great mod. Thanks!

O and can you please give Drone more rolls. I would like it a lot if the mothership have her own defensing drone during attacks because they're sooooooo Cool!!! =)

Aliksander

18th Feb 08, 12:25 PM

As much as I hate to admit it, I somewhat agree with Richbar. I haven't upgraded to 6.5.1 yet but it seems the one who rushes is gonna have the best shot at victory. The AI sometimes takes out another AI, then with the momentum in Honor and resources is able to completely sweep the map in short order by spamming huge fleets. I may be able to withstand one or two assaults but the momentum is still against me and I am eventually overwhelmed. I think there should be a bigger temporary penalty to losing many ships in short order. If the enemy loses a large force to my defenses he should have a high penalty in moral (experience) for his ships that lasts for a game year or so, slowly dissipating over a year or two. This allows a good defender to reverse momentum rather than focusing on just surviving the next wave. Each ship loss should have a minuscule universal penalty to experience that dissipates slowly, so it will only really affect you if you lose many ships at once.

Alkezo

18th Feb 08, 12:40 PM

callitri

18th Feb 08, 1:10 PM

well beghins about what to play well its true good quality games are hard to find specialy when yourself raised the bar so high with your mod:)
about that game sins of a solar empire.. well i personaly think its a joke a bad one even many ideas were taken from hegemonia but the wrost part in it doesent have a singleplayer campaign and i think that is an integral part of any game , i read it on there site it has en "epic storyline" what storyline? u have a somewhat limited intro movie and nothing u just play skirmishes...
but the part i mentioned i hate when games steal ideas and start to brag how original they are
to be honest i rarely see good games outside blizzard
and i just drool about the idea of starcraft 2:)
what ever ppl say about heroes 4 i remain a die hard h4 fan i loved the diea about the hero being an actual unit
again grate job m8 i think i can dpeak for all on this forum that we hope we will see a complex 7:)

Coolcat

18th Feb 08, 2:55 PM

Complex 6.5
RU Fusion Research (Scavenger) has no effect. After 1/3 and 2/3 all Scavengers produce still 25 RU every 5 seconds. I didn't tried 3/3 update.

Nerb

18th Feb 08, 7:30 PM

Ricbar... play the game on Hard or Expert. The AI stops building fighters/corvets and concentrates on resourses and capitals. It will give youtime to build more defences and subsequently an offensive force.
I personally found it very difficult on Easy and much more enjoyable on Hard/expert

Actually, if your playing as hiigaran, just build 3 or 4 flak frigates... they will fend off ANY fighter wave he sends at you.

wgd

19th Feb 08, 1:19 AM

LOL beghins put in a 1P Campaign!!! with intro movies n stuff~!! then u can really call it HW3 lolzz

Ahto

19th Feb 08, 1:35 AM

I have gone back to 5.5. The Hiigaran Battlecruiser does wonderful damage, even the Ion Platforms. I playes with four players, two allies and hard Vaygr against another hard Vaygr and me and ally (Hiigaran). It was fun. I must admit that it pains me not to be able to play 6.5. or 6.4. since they had nice ships and so on. But there are too many restrictions and the AI is a littel out of place. Now that I can see the difference between 5.5. and 6.4., I can say that Hiigaran resourcing is way more balanced in 5.5. In 6.4. I could build up resources very fast, that's why the RU supply thing was so tedious. In the end, while concentrating on capships, I had four or five Scavangers crammed around one resourcing point. Not nice. I still think that their one supply subsystem should be allowed to be at least 5000. My tactics is the reason, maybe someone has other tactics and doesn't really need that much supply subsystems.
One thing I also found really interesting is that after I researched any possible researchable thing, built all different subsystems (had three shiyards), my research score in the end was still something like 89 or 90. Where is that 10% research then? :-D
I have also found out that Hiigaran Battlecruisers make some very stupid moves before attacking. They face the opponent in 5.5., why are they rotating like a dish on a stick in 6.4.? And their ion cannons are wimps, in 5.5., three Battlecruisers attacked Vaygr Flagship (it had about 800 000 HP) and after two shots from all the BCs, they Flagship became a nice stardust.
But, all in all, the mod is really superb and nagging about it doesn't really do any good - beghins' work is really huge on it. A big thanks! :-)

mwalla81

19th Feb 08, 9:06 AM

LOL beghins put in a 1P Campaign!!! with intro movies n stuff~!! then u can really call it HW3 lolzz

dude with all the cool changes he made up until now.......its already become homeworld 3 from my point of view.... ^___^

Good job beghins....I always look forward to your newer version of homeworld complex ^^.

Alkezo

19th Feb 08, 11:45 AM

But there are too many restrictions and the AI is a littel out of place. Now that I can see the difference between 5.5. and 6.4., I can say that Hiigaran resourcing is way more balanced in 5.5. In 6.4. I could build up resources very fast, that's why the RU supply thing was so tedious.
The only restriction that exists is the new RU supply trait. And if you need 4 or 5 Scavengers just to hold all of your RU then that means you aren't building faster enough or you are at a point where you have already won and are just messing around with the AI and researches/ships. Once you reach the point of winning but not actually defeating your enemy, then whatever you do after that is completely irrelevant because you have already surpassed the limit of the game. The mod wasn't made to be played past the point of winning. In fact, not many games are.
The AI has been improved dramatically from 5.5. I used to be able to take on almost 4 Expert AIs at the same time. Now they are much more of a threat and smarter. I have no idea what you mean by its out of place as that makes no sense at all.

I have also found out that Hiigaran Battlecruisers make some very stupid moves before attacking. They face the opponent in 5.5., why are they rotating like a dish on a stick in 6.4.? And their ion cannons are wimps, in 5.5., three Battlecruisers attacked Vaygr Flagship (it had about 800 000 HP) and after two shots from all the BCs, they Flagship became a nice stardust.
Hey guess what? The Hiigarian Battlecruisers do the same thing as they do in 6.0+. They turn their backs to the enemy. The Ion Cannon bug is already known and making that as a note of why 5.5 is so much better than 6.0+ is moot.

BGMF

19th Feb 08, 12:55 PM

After a while of pause I replayed HW2 with the latest complex - and gues what: I still love it!
Ok, there may be some bugs, but reffering to the work that is done by the complex-team I have no problems with it. And I don't care about the Ion Cannon bug, because I love to play Vaygr ;-)

Someone before me asked for new groups / factions - I have to agree with him, that it's getting a little annoying only play against the same enemies all the time.
But I understand, that it's to difficult to add new ones, if you want them fully balanced! But nevertheless I like to think about it. For example Pirates (like from the Pirates mod, but in a complex way - I guess they allready had enough ships for a good basic gameplay - at least as for AIs) or sub-factions like in C&C Generals: ZH or the upcoming Add-On for C&C3... Imagine some kind of Hiigaran Special Forces (more aggressive - gameplay more like Vaygr, with a little different MS or so, and only them with that huge MS Ion Cannon) or an Vaygr Inner Circle with an updated MS - like in the cinematics - a huge Carrier of some sort...
I like to think abaout it, even if it's impossible, that complex will ever have something like this...

Something else: I have to agree to the last posts, that HW2: Complex 6.5.1 is allready something like a new and better HW2 - more a HW3. When and if some game developer / publisher will release an new HW we can only hope, that they will have a look at the community and mods like complex. Anything worse than that will be unacceptable - for my opinion...

Draconica

19th Feb 08, 2:54 PM

Actually, you know what I would enjoy in Complex... The ability to start with Carriers only and have frigate/corvette/fighter oriented battles. I know it was an option in the older non-complex mods and was a lot of fun.
Though, I don't know how we'd manage that in complex, with the neccessity of crew ships/research stations and such (buildable on MS and SY only) Or how to do that without a carrier just building a hyperspace mod, and jumping a SY in.
I guess you'd need to disable some research, or some ships I should say as you would still want normal hyperspacing as an option. But it would be fun playing a more mobile/tactical game.

Perhaps the answer would be to build a new super carrier for both Vaygr and Hiigaran that had the ability to house a minor crew and minor research facility onboard. The minor-crew facility could house crew only, no officers hence limiting the capital ship capabilities. The minor research faciilty could limit research to the first tier or maybe 2nd.
Think of it as a Super Carrier, or mini-mothership. hehe.
Or if we wanted to have a few capitals, have the super carrier be able to hyper space in only minor cap ships, like destroyer/ion destroyers only, and be severly limited to like a maximum of like 3-5 destroyer class ships, (based on the officers limit)

I'd bet that would be a fun as hell ship model to build too.
OOOOOO....now I'm excited. Come on, you guys know you wanna see it happen:) hehe.

Also, a carrier like that would help with the Hiigaran's being completely hosed if they lose their crew ship or research station, as it would add a small level of redundancy. Even though it would be limited to how many crew & how much research it could enable, it would give you a fallback point should you lose your primary Research and crew stations.

DJ Die

19th Feb 08, 6:16 PM

or simply add option to set starting and maximum crew/officers and start with carrier
if you set officers to 0 you should still be able to have carrier but you will be unable to build SY or any cap and when you set starting crew to lets say 500 you can field quite big fleet

caesar4

19th Feb 08, 11:27 PM

Beghins, its really cool how in some starting cases the Higs start out with a research station and a crew station.
In the interest of game balance (Hig vs Vagyr) could you make it so that Higs always start out with research and crew stations at the beginning, or at least make Vagyr research cost/time comparable to Hig

Ahto

20th Feb 08, 2:34 AM

:-D
I take back all my whining! I played 6.5.1 and WOW, it is way better than 6.4! Stupid me, I guess...

Forsaken -> I must tell you about my strategy for you to understand why I would like to see a Scavangers RU supply limit increased.
I usually start with resourcing and establish three or four resourcing operations, depending on the safety of the area (closer to the main "base". In the beginning, it's very difficult to produce all the RUs necessary but it works. After some time, I build Capital Class facility and then Corvette Class facility. Corvettes are nice to fend off any enemy fighters and frigates. In the far and between these things I start building platforms. These are useful to be left where they are while mobile units can go and harass others' resource operations. This way I increase my crew limit. All the while I research, research and research. The higher I get on the research, the longer it takes to research, the faster the RUs build up. Even when the cost of the reasearch is like 11000 or so. In the end, after three-tier research, the AI is sending against me all kinds of things, ranging from fighters to destroyers. And now I start building capships, battlecruisers and such. Believe me, it's interesting to do so, and much, much more fun because the AI also has built up considerable forces and the battle is really fun this way. 6 or 7 battlecruisers are a norm in my case, plus corvettes to confuse the defences of enemy. So, in the end, the RU supply limit is reached, research all done and battle still going on. I might need new capships, corvettes or frigates but I might not. Usually, I keep building corvettes but frigates, no.
I hope that this explanation is giving idea to the reasons why I think the limit should be increased per subsystem. And, besides, what's the difference how much per se the limit it - it won't hive Hiigarans an advantage, RU resourcing is the key here.

xxobot

20th Feb 08, 4:00 AM

[kiss arse]
beghins is a god among modders for creating this mod (lets see any of you make it)... why hasn't been given shiney senior member status for his godlike work?

beghins, I salute you :salute:
[/kiss arse]

dude with all the cool changes he made up until now.......its already become homeworld 3 from my point of view.... ^___^
More like a HW 2.5

btw I love the motherships buildable weaponry... it owns
Oh and... THE ION CANNON IS THE SIGNATURE OF A GREAT HIIGARAN FLEET! HOW COULD YOU NOT HAVE IT WORKING :rofl:

Nerb

20th Feb 08, 5:33 AM

Caesar... youve got to be kidding. Its hard enough already for Vaygar.

beghins

20th Feb 08, 5:39 AM

It seems the ion problem is still around here, may be it's related to particular situations, may be I will fix in a new release, but you have to explain it better.
In my PC ions works perfectly and they are balanced, I'm speaking about Ion Platforms, Ion Destroyers, Ion Frigates, Command Fortresses, Vortex, Mothership and Battlecruisers, the only imperfection I can advise is for the Heavy Ion Cannon Set Mounted in the Battlecruiser cause it doesn't face the enemy, but in my opininion I like it as it is.
Let me know how you encounter the poroblem, game situations, your game modality (tactical, normal, fast), against which units, the experience and afficency of the unit that use ions, and so on.
I would like to read of someone that have ions working too.

Andreaz

20th Feb 08, 6:30 AM

Beghins, thanks for keeping homeworld alive. If you would put HW2complex on a shelf in a box with manual I'd run to the store and buy it immediately. I'm totally into homeworld again thanks to you.

A question.
I've been playing with 6.3 now many times and it seems the Hiigaran AI is much more agressive and intelligent than the Vaygr. The Hiigaran reaaly give me a hard time (I love it). The Vaygr AI I've only seen building some fighters, bombers and corvettes. I was playing on normal difficulty in all cases.

I'm going to try 6.5.1 now. Maybe the AI has changed?

Fo®Saken

20th Feb 08, 6:41 AM

to beghins - The ms ions work like a charm.I think that people do not realize that there is a pretty long fire delay when it is activated. YOU ONLY HAVE TO SELECT IT ONCE!! If you keep selecting it, then the delay will just start over again, making it look like it does not work. Maybe the delay should be shorter, I looked it up in the weapon script editor -awesome program- that zatch made and it is like 12 seconds if I remember correctly. That is just to long. The ions on the frigates, platforms and vortex work fine, I do not know if the ones on the destroyers work. I do not use them anymore since they used to do no damage.

Sajuuk333

20th Feb 08, 6:47 AM

guys make sure the ships hit by the ions aren't in a repair module's range

DragonRR

20th Feb 08, 8:10 AM

@Beghins.

The latest update is excellent :)

The only game I've had time for so far is one where I played Hig vs Hig set to hard using the resource collectors set to "Empire". A VERY nice addition. BUT the AI just doesn't seem to know how to handle this setting and put up an almost no fight at all. Do you think you can look at this?

Andreaz

20th Feb 08, 8:22 AM

Played 6.5.1 now. against 1 Hiigaran and 1 Vaygr.
Hiigaran is definately much, much stronger and more agressive. Both AI directed their atack towards me as I was in the middle, but the Hig already fielded destroyers when the Vaygr only had fighters and bombers. By the time the Hig had Battlecruisers the only thing the Vaygr had build were many frigates and some fighters and bombers and lots of turrets.

The Hiigaran had already attacked me 5 times and I had retaliated 2 times against it when the first (frigate based) assault of the Vaygr against my mothership and resourcers took place. This was the end of me because the Hiigaran jumped with his Battlecruiser to my Mothership while I was busy fending of the Vaygr assault.

The Vaygr seems very slow in development and is very docile compared to the Hiigaran.

It was a fun game nevertheless. I'm still learning all the new Complex stuff.

beghins

20th Feb 08, 9:32 AM

The ions on the frigates, platforms and vortex work fine, I do not know if the ones on the destroyers work. I do not use them anymore since they used to do no damage.
I never have this problem, Ion Destroyers' ions works very fine to me, even more powerful after retunes done in 6.5 due to community reports; anyone other has problems with ion destroyers?

Alkezo

20th Feb 08, 9:53 AM

it won't hive Hiigarans an advantage
Right... in the meantime the Vaygr are stuck to researching their RU Supply... It's in the favor of the Hiigarians as it is since they don't have a limit to their RU Supply while the Vaygr do. Need more Supply? Build another Scavanger. Need more Supply as Vaygr? Your screwed. Just because your tactics require more supply than others doesn't mean the game needs to be shifted in the favor of the Hiigarians. Even if you raised the amount of RU Supply researches for the Vaygr, it just means they would have to spend more time researching something that is preventing them from researching something more useful.

The Vaygr seems very slow in development and is very docile compared to the Hiigaran.
Play more. The A.I. has a random personality generator.

It seems the ion problem is still around here, may be it's related to particular situations, may be I will fix in a new release, but you have to explain it better.
In my PC ions works perfectly and they are balanced, I'm speaking about Ion Platforms, Ion Destroyers, Ion Frigates, Command Fortresses, Vortex, Mothership and Battlecruisers, the only imperfection I can advise is for the Heavy Ion Cannon Set Mounted in the Battlecruiser cause it doesn't face the enemy, but in my opininion I like it as it is.
I've been trying to test it but I've been unable to identify the problem. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Perhaps researches are effecting it. Try ships that aren't upgraded yet and slowly test them through various stages of researches. Another possibility is the time where ships don't take any damage for the first few hits. Perhaps there's a problem there as it would seem likely programming-wise that a problem could arise from there.

Elred

20th Feb 08, 10:20 AM

Multilance still show to do no damage... I havn't tested it yet, but it would be good to fix it.

wgd

20th Feb 08, 6:59 PM

Beghins is there a way to increase the unit cap? I mean beyond 1225 Crew and 60 Officers?

Also, what do Bentusi core fragments do? Does something happen if you collect them all?

caesar4

20th Feb 08, 7:28 PM

Caesar... youve got to be kidding. Its hard enough already for Vaygar.

Nerb, are you familiar with an old game called Starcraft
anyways, the game is fairly balanced, but a skilled player could use a race called the Zerg to construct MANY very weak units called Zerglings and use them to do a "Zerg Rush"

anyways, Vagyr and Zerg are very much similar, the corvettes are pretty much useless, but get a whole bunch of assault craft and some frigates very early in the game, and you can easily destroy a pro Hig player

Alkezo

20th Feb 08, 10:50 PM

ZERG RUSH!!11!!1one KEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEK!!
Sorry, had to do it.

ford6

21st Feb 08, 12:37 AM

what do Bentusi core fragments do? Does something happen if you collect them all?

They give you an uber ship that's yellow, with blackish brown strips, which fires lightning bolts at your enemy's.

:spartaaa: Sorry, couldn't resist that one. :spartaaa:

Fo®Saken

21st Feb 08, 3:43 AM

@ Ceacar: please, do not EVER say again that starcraft was FAIRLY balanced. It is the most balanced game ever and most modern rts games are based on the same game mechenics that starcraft used, even homeworld does this in some ways. I am sorry for going of-topic, but I just can not stand people who uderestimate the greatest rts game of all time.

xxobot

21st Feb 08, 4:07 AM

hear hear, if only hw2 could be that balance rofl, although complex mod is getting quite close, if I may comment

Babbo

21st Feb 08, 4:17 AM

Beghins, dear all ..., ions do work fine over all units - except the battlecruiser's battery which less than rarely works at all. And meanwhile I've learned to live with the BC's dancing ambitions, even if I really prefer its 5.* behaviour.

Also, an argument read, I agree in some way upon Ahto's opinion that the AI sometimes behaves rather strange (not to say unbalanced): e.g. playing some hard Hiig against Vaygr, having 2-3 destroyers, a couple of corvettes and fighters - und suddenly feel yourself targeted by waves of 10, 20 and more frigates ... or "another one" may be simply reduced to the question what to do against the Vaygr battleship ...?

All in all and shortly, love it still - and love it more - but some aspects have gone worse.

beghins

21st Feb 08, 5:12 AM

Beghins, dear all ..., ions do work fine over all units - except the battlecruiser's battery which less than rarely works at all. And meanwhile I've learned to live with the BC's dancing ambitions, even if I really prefer its 5.* behaviour.
All in all and shortly, love it still - and love it more - but some aspects have gone worse.
OK, but BC behaviour has not be modified in 6.*, it's the same of 5.*

motiv-8

21st Feb 08, 6:50 AM

Nerb, are you familiar with an old game called Starcraft
anyways, the game is fairly balanced, but a skilled player could use a race called the Zerg to construct MANY very weak units called Zerglings and use them to do a "Zerg Rush"

Are you familiar with a game called StarCraft?
It has this tactic called a 'Zerg Rush', that was very easily beaten by a player with any experience.

Babbo

21st Feb 08, 8:00 AM

Hm, unchanged behaviour ... but why does it feel as if it has been changed. Maybe, very loosely spoken, some changed environment (map?) variables do have an effect associated with unchanged battlecruiser parameters. E.g., today in the morning (to get the day running ;)), when playing the Iperproduction map, one of my battlecruisers simply refused to attack before it was, so to say, manually moved to the enemy. (Allow a note: I am familiar with F2,3,4.)

Edit for more politeness: "Before she was ... moved."

beghins

21st Feb 08, 12:17 PM

Allow a note: I am familiar with F2,3,4
If you set your Battlecruiser on passive it keep its position during attack

DJ Die

21st Feb 08, 1:35 PM

thats why i hated StarCraft all you had to do to win was to amass enough units
smaller units should be used as support for bigger ships but i agree that the way ship explosions are atm they are almost useless because after they kill 1 larger vessel they are pretty much doomed

Nerb

21st Feb 08, 8:05 PM

Nerb, are you familiar with an old game called Starcraft
anyways, the game is fairly balanced, but a skilled player could use a race called the Zerg to construct MANY very weak units called Zerglings and use them to do a "Zerg Rush"

anyways, Vagyr and Zerg are very much similar, the corvettes are pretty much useless, but get a whole bunch of assault craft and some frigates very early in the game, and you can easily destroy a pro Hig player

Ok, I dont know if you've used the flak frigate, but you can build them right off the bat. Just 2 or 3 flak frigates will take out wave after wave of Vaygr fighters, so your "zerg rush" analogy really doesnt work. I suggest you get together with a friend, tell them to just build flak frigates only, and try your zerg rush. You'll get canned.
Besides, I was a TA man. Starcraft was ok for 6 year olds.

Edit... even better, lets meet up online, i'll only build flak frigates, and you build your fighters. I guarantee it will be game over by year 5.

Babbo

21st Feb 08, 10:19 PM

If you set your Battlecruiser on passive it keep its position during attack Allow another note: I thought I was familiar ... :D

Thanks for your advice, will try.

wgd

21st Feb 08, 11:03 PM

But Nerb nobody in a real game ONLY builds flak frigs or fighters, and other Vaygar units are quite cheap too. So as Vaygar you can rush people with fighters, corvettes AND in some cases frigs, in which case only building flaks would not work.

Whenever I play my flaks are the first to be destroyed, because nobody can miss hitting the frigs, while my fighters and corvettes can dodge and other capships have better armour...

MacDaniel

21st Feb 08, 11:33 PM

How do I played game? ▔\(o.°)/▔

In all seriousness I never have problems just building defensively. I can even take on two Expert A.I.'s at the same time. You just need to know what to build/research and when. Instead of posting about how crappy the mod has become, go learn how to play.

IMO this mod only gets better and better. This is the game homeworld 2 should have been. I'm trying to learn how to play again since the crew recruitment system changed. I could play Complex 5 competitively, but now the AI runs away with the honor points and there's nothing I can do to keep up. I collect as much or more resources, build, research, and so forth as advised... I make sure maintenance costs are paid on time, I win battles (with enough ships)... and still I can't keep up. Any advice from experts (or anyone who can play, really) would be appreciated.

I've scoured this forum for the answer to this question, since it seems like an obvious one, but I've only come up with this:

I was able to get the population system working on OS X by editing the population.lua file. I removed all references to "honoursensitivity", which doesn't seem to be being used.

So in all instances, I replaced:
honorList[playerIndexList] = (((honorcapture + honorbattle + honortribute + honorru + honorresearch + honorbuild + honourstart + honorextra) * honoursensitivity)) + honorbonus[playerIndexList]

with:

honorList[playerIndexList] = (honorcapture + honorbattle + honortribute + honorru + honorresearch + honorbuild + honourstart + honorextra) + honorbonus[playerIndexList]

-As it is right now, its a bit easy to screw Hiigarians over in the beginning. The crew system is a fragile so if you lose a scavenger or something, you have to wait until you get 30 honor to get a Crew Station, then build crew cells, then wait for them to get moving. I didn't build enough defenses once and a group of bombers barely managed to destroy my scavenger. Perhaps buff up the Crew Station and Crew Cells. The Crew Cells themselves don't survive very long and someone mentioned they try to go straight through nebula so perhaps make them immune to nebula damage as well? One Dreadnaught is able to kill a Crew Station in one shot.

yup crew requirements of scavenger were already decrased as it is with remade crew recruitment system its fine but maintenance for those modules is still too high

DragonRR

22nd Feb 08, 4:27 AM

@Beghins.

I mentioned a page earlier that there seemed to be an issue with the AI on Hard when using the "empire" setting. I played another game last night on hard on a different map. The AI did play better but still a bit poor. I'll try expert next and see if it fares any better.

Battlecruiser issues. I have seen battle cruisers behaving strangely at times. I don't agree that the Ion cannon is useless but there are times when the battlecruisers will turn around for no apparent reason.

@MacDaniel

Honour. The AI (even on Hard) does seem to generate honor at a faster rate than I can.. Either it's cheating or it might be something to do with capturing mining bases earlier than I tend to do.. Not sure about this. In the last game I had I was miles ahead of the AI on research. I lost no ships at all in the early game and only lost a few in the entire game. Using remote monitor the AI was a rank ahead until later in the game. I did notice that the AI was romping around the map capturing mining bases (I hadn't bothered) so maybe that was it and/or cheating.

DJ Die

22nd Feb 08, 5:48 AM

you gain most honor by killing enemy ships and building you own ships

anyway i think AI has certain advantage because otherwise it wouldnt be able to challenge you at all

PhoenixStar

22nd Feb 08, 9:17 AM

Hi everyone,

I have just discovered this mod and I'm very impressed.

I dug out my copy of HW2 and installed it for the first time in years to try this mod - and I like the new angle you have introduced - its a much more challenging and comprehensive game that's for sure!

One question I do have though - is there a game manual?

I've been reading through some of the posts and the website, but when playing I don't know what the new ships are, or what half of the features do. Mine-bases for example - how they operate, what do I need to do etc. etc., - a manual would be great.

It may already be out there somewhere and maybe I'm missing it, but please can someone point me in the right direction to finding it, or online help?

Thanks all!!

PxStar

DJ Die

22nd Feb 08, 11:10 AM

btw Flak Frigates are one of most powerfull frigs and they will tear apart other frigates and even destroyers quite easily

Fo®Saken

22nd Feb 08, 11:13 AM

There is no manual for this mod at the moment, but I am working on one at the moment. It will take some time to get it comlete though, because I am also working on a modding project of my own at the moment.

Alkezo

22nd Feb 08, 1:15 PM

Here's the strategy I use to play defensively:

-Start by focusing on getting a few more Resource Collectors, a Mobile Refinery, and a Research Station. Then build more Resource Collectors until you think theres enough per RU rock, most likely building more Refineries as needed. I usually have 1 Refinery per 4-6 Collectors. Build a Research Module then a Defense Tower Module so you can research Improved Mothership Defense.

-Proceed to build a Frigate Facility so you can build a few Flak Frigates. Also build a Capital Ship Facility to build a Crew Station. You should have around 20 Honor by now if you started with 10, which I usually do. Research upgrades you feel are relevant to get your research score higher.

-Once you hit 30 Honor focus on getting Crew and a Carrier. Equip the Carrier with a Frigate Facility. If you want, research Destroyer and build one. Then focus on getting the Science Division on your Research Station. If you can survive until then you should be able to win. Now immediately spend everything in researching, building, and upgrading Sniper Frigates. These guys will allow you to survive until the Engineering Facility is available. With their range and power, they can destroy quite a few ships before the enemy fleet can even get in range. Using that Destroyer could be a good way to keep the enemy fire on while your Sniper Frigates do the damage.

Basically your main force of your fleet should be Sniper Frigates. They can even hold up with Battlecruisers around, just as long as you have your own. But if you have enough Sniper Frigates, they can take out a Battlecruiser pretty easily.

I've been testing the effectiveness of the Tulwar Frigates and they don't really do much to make me switch from Snipers. They don't seem to do enough damage to warrant the lower range.

I've been having a lot of freeze ups recently. In fact I don't think I've actually finished a game in quite some time... :/

This probably isn't supposed to happen (http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i81/Alkezo/?action=view&current=ss00223.jpg)

Jean=A=Luc

22nd Feb 08, 1:24 PM

Hey Phoenix,

You have to capture the mining base with a marine frigate. Then send collectors and mining containers to dock with it. Collectors will mine the asteroid (it all happens inside the base) and fill up the containers with ore. Once full the collectors will exit the base and carry the ore to the nearest capital ship with a docking bay. Keep in mind that the containers are very slow and they can't deposit their ore into mining platforms (not sure about the Higaaran Scavenger) so your best bet is to keep a carrier close to the mining base. It takes a while to set up but once it gets going mining bases can supply you with very large amounts of RUs depending on how many collectors/containers you put to work in them.

Fo®Saken

22nd Feb 08, 3:17 PM

Big bug found! I just remembered something when reading the posts about mining bases. A scavanger is able to build mining containers and is able to let them unload. However, when you let it build more then one container, it does not allow the container to exit the scavanger anymore. Instead, the scavanger starts to produce flames and smoke as if it is damaged. Also, the building of subsystems on these -damaged- scavangers becomes impossible. This also seems to happen when a container is docked with the scavanger and something is finished building from that scavanger, even if it is the first thing to be built. I have scuttled so much scavangers already because of this, please fix it...

MacDaniel

22nd Feb 08, 3:55 PM

Thanks guys. I didn't realize that flak frigates are so important in this mod. I'm used to them being quickly demolished like in regular HW2. I've noticed that the artillery frigates are the same way; a fleet of them can quickly shred any enemy to pieces. I also like the improved effectiveness of the marine frigates. Played last night for 4 hours and captured about 10 cap ships (and had about 10 of my own captured). Addicted.

seath

22nd Feb 08, 5:22 PM

Whats an artillery frigate?
(Description, model, etc.)

Ahto

23rd Feb 08, 3:12 AM

Well, I have played and watched now units' behaviour closely, especially Hiigaran Battlecruiser and frigates.
Alkezo is right, combination with Destroyer and Sniper Frigate is really deadly. If one can spare RUs on two more destroyers and these have at least first and second tier defence research on them, as well as Snipers, there's no force that could stand against you. I also recommend kindly build Repair Subsystem, shipyard is useful for that. It will prolong the life of your ships.
I once played against three enemies and with one ally - 5 players then total. Enemies were all Vaygr and ally was also Vaygr, I played as Hiigaran. Boy, I had a lot of trouble to keep the fighter swarms at bay. Flak Frigates are excellent, yes, but still, three or four of them are too weak to fend or bombers and so.
Anyway, I then started concentrating on Snipers and had 10 of them in the end. I didn't build anything stronger and took out two Vaygr Battlecruisers, three shipyards and one Flagship before I was killed off. Another wave of Snipers took care of the rest.
With this I also noticed, why I even started talking about it, that Sniper pulsar does no damage. Before the torpedoes hit the target, it wasn't damaged by pulsar beams at all. And THEN, after it was hit but torpedoes, the pulsar beams started working in full. This was also with Battlecruisers - at the beginning when the beam contacted with the enemy, there was a short delay and then the healthbar of enemy ship started dropping. Three Battlecruisers can lay waste alsmost to anything, two shots and Vaygr Flagship was gone! So, Battlecruiser's Ion Battery works just fine, give it just time to load, shoot and start doing damage. It was exactly like this with Snipers.

xxobot

23rd Feb 08, 3:32 AM

Um... I find the motherships flak cannons are more than adequate to take care of even a corvette mass... and the only problem I have with the ion battery on the bc is that it only shoots forwards... fine for approaching a target... useless when you reach it...

Coolcat

23rd Feb 08, 4:06 AM

(Complex 6.5)

Vaygr -> Command Fortress -> Defense Facility
After the description text this thing should enable to build drones and patchers, but it does not. Also there is a typo: "Pathcer".

Vaygr Mine Containers should be able to use Hyperspace Gates. At best they should use them automatically if the way is faster.

Also Hiigaran Mine Containers and Crew Cells should be able to use Chimera Station in the same way (not tried).

There also should be speed, drive and health upgrades for Mine Containers of both races. Same goes for Hiigaran Crew Cells. Especially for Hiigaran it is complicated to have a fleet that is not concentrated one one point in space. I think faster Containers and Crew Cells with more health would help in this case.

Seraph

23rd Feb 08, 7:37 AM

One thing I also found really interesting is that after I researched any possible researchable thing, built all different subsystems (had three shipyards), my research score in the end was still something like 89 or 90. Where is that 10% research then? :-D

I concur - how do I cloak my viper missiles? Also, you can build radiation and cloaking subsystems on BC's and Carriers, extra research becomes available then also.

And, like so many people before me, thank you Beghins, crazy awesome job you've done here - a truly professional class modification you've made here.

Ahto

23rd Feb 08, 10:38 AM

I've always wanted to ask this and always keep forgetting. Now I remembered again.

You know, when you use Infiltrator Frigate/Marine Frigate to capture enemy vessels, you can use it as your own. But, there are some buts. First - why doesn't capturing a capship add to officer count? I mean, I captured two shipyards and three destroyers and I still had as much of officers I had before doing this. Secondly - if I capture any build-capable ship, why cannot I use it? The shipyards were just good to recycle, nothing else. But, their subsystems opened new researches that I hadn't researched myself yet (Drive upgrades). It would really grate to use enemy vessels against itself. But then, of course, capturing should make officer-crew account larger. This might then even stop AI sending armada of Infiltrator/Marine Frigates... :D

DJ Die

23rd Feb 08, 11:03 AM

you cant cloak vipers they are overpowered as it is

you dont posses tech to build shpis of other faction if you want one capture it imho it would be stupid if you could build all enemy ships no need to use advantages of your race that way...

Quantur

23rd Feb 08, 2:06 PM

I made a little video about this coplex mod

:arrow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlNMVqb4cdA

i hope u like it

this mod rocks!!!

xxobot

23rd Feb 08, 5:55 PM

oh dear god, you can tell something is popular if you find it on youtube

beghins

23rd Feb 08, 6:13 PM

I made a little video about this coplex mod
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlNMVqb4cdA
i hope u like it
this mod rocks!!!
Honored!
The official trailer also is available on the web site, and a list of YouTube videos related to Complex is linked too (links page).

BurningFeetMan

23rd Feb 08, 9:28 PM

Downloading 6.51 now! Thank you beghins!

Also, the last crash I had in 6.4 was when I zoomed in on a research station during a battle, the game crashed to desktop 2 seconds after zooming back out.

Fasta

24th Feb 08, 3:38 AM

With my antivirus on I had CTD several times, also had to kill punkbuster processes.
Just a heads up.

I have a suggestion, just my opinion, I would like to hear more voice in complex, i.e when new important events take place, some kind of voice description would be nice. Also a briefing in the start of the maps would also be first-class. Don’t even know if its possible..

(Complex 6.5)

Vaygr -> Command Fortress -> Defense Facility
After the description text this thing should enable to build drones and patchers, but it does not. Also there is a typo: "Pathcer".

Vaygr Mine Containers should be able to use Hyperspace Gates. At best they should use them automatically if the way is faster.

Also Hiigaran Mine Containers and Crew Cells should be able to use Chimera Station in the same way (not tried).

There also should be speed, drive and health upgrades for Mine Containers of both races. Same goes for Hiigaran Crew Cells.
x2

Especially for Hiigaran it is complicated to have a fleet that is not concentrated one one point in space. I think faster Containers and Crew Cells with more health would help in this case

Well, we like complex things, dont you forget ;)

@Quantur - Great video m8 :awesome:

@beghins - Didnt know the existence of that videos!! WOW.
4 years after i finish HWs campaings, iam discovering a new HW. ~

EDIT : Are you guys at complex team doing any change log between versions?

:slow:

Nerb

24th Feb 08, 5:15 AM

Played 18hours straight of complex 6.5.1 this weekend in a lan with 2 others. Theyre Hig men, im Vaygr. All are quite experienced players. I think some balancing needs to be done.
Early in the game Hig have a good advantage. Scavangers allow wide spread resource collection and cheap flak frigates can protect them against anything the Vaygr can produce early. This is especially the case now that the research module has gone from 2000 to 3000RU. Vaygr and forced to centralise because flaks can do good damage to resource operations and fighters are useless against them.
On small maps (anything under 50000), the above ensures a win for Hig.

On large maps (we made some maps 200,000 just to prolong a game) the Vaygr do much better, having time to build a reasonable frigate force. Heavy missle frigates are quite effective on mass. By mid game, Vaygr does well... destroyers and battlecruisers do well against most opposition and higs ion destroyers really even things up.

Then we get to late game and higs make those damn Vortex's. They are a game killer. I thought i was in for an even match when one player sent 2 Vortex's at me. I had 1 fully upgraded battle cruiser, 8 fully upgraded destroyers and more than 25 heavy missile frigates. Vaygr was ahnnilated. I managed to kill 1 Vortex but not much of me was left. So late game is all Higs.

Now dont get me wrong... i enjoy a challenge and we all loved every minute of it, but after 8 or so games, Vaygr never won once.

My suggestions are 1. reduce vaygr research module back to 2000ru; 2. put the flak frigate in the research tree so that it needs to be researched after the frigate facility; 3. lower the armour of the Vortex. Huge fire power and their fast maneuverability is enough.

Quantur... very nice clip. Well put together. Ive forwarded that to a bunch of friends.

DJ Die

24th Feb 08, 5:26 AM

i dont know who had that stupid idea to increase cost of res module in first place that kills vaygr they need to be fast or they loose
also i think another sligh decrease in Vortex stats is in place atm they are still too fast
flak frigates effectivnes against frigates and bigger should be decreased i think there was armor penetration stat or something that decreased damage this could be used to even them a bit they can kill destroyers easily

beghins

24th Feb 08, 5:34 AM

Played 18hours straight of complex 6.5.1 this weekend in a lan with 2 others.
Then we get to late game and higs make those damn Vortex's. They are a game killer. I thought i was in for an even match when one player sent 2 Vortex's at me. I had 1 fully upgraded battle cruiser, 8 fully upgraded destroyers and more than 25 heavy missile frigates. Vaygr was ahnnilated. I managed to kill 1 Vortex but not much of me was left. So late game is all Higs.
18 hours are a good challenge, mine are not so long...
Your fleet above against the Vortex is a joke, the Vortex has been developed for match Vaygr extreme ships like Battleships and Dreadnaughts, so if you had 1 or 2 Battleship fully upgraded instead of your BC may be you were the winner.

BGMF

24th Feb 08, 10:08 AM

Hi beghins and all!

On Friday I finally found out about that damn ion cannon bug (even if I'm am Vaygr-player, I would like to have strong opponents). As a Vaygr (of course) I fought back an expert Hiig in a tactical game. I'm used to the custom one.
Custom: Ion Destroyer - no effect
Tactical: full effect...

A bug or a feature? ;-)

btw I find to use battleships is a good answer to a Vortex, but I agree, that you shouldn't weaken the Vaygr to much! In some parts of the game Hiigs are overpowered...
Anyway - I love to play it again and again and again and...

pvtchaos

24th Feb 08, 12:46 PM

Hi,

First a big thanks to the creators of this mod, its beautiful, massive and I am really addicted to it.

I also often have the problem of the freezing of the game. So I started to experiment a bit. What I found out is that I can create the freeze myself if I hyperspace the command fortress too close to my mothership or too close to the chimera station.

I got a save game where I can go two ways :
1) Hyperspace the command fortress too close to the mothership -> freeze of the game.
2) Hyperspace the command fortress in the same direction but much further away from the mothership -> no freeze, game continues normal.

I know that this is not much of proof and maybe not the only error for the freeze to occure, but at least I can reproduce it. Also a thing to note is that I never had a freeze on very small maps, but always on big maps. Thanks alot for the autosave feature! :awesome:

BGMF

24th Feb 08, 1:05 PM

never ecoundered something like this...

Alkezo

24th Feb 08, 1:34 PM

Then we get to late game and higs make those damn Vortex's. They are a game killer. I thought i was in for an even match when one player sent 2 Vortex's at me. I had 1 fully upgraded battle cruiser, 8 fully upgraded destroyers and more than 25 heavy missile frigates. Vaygr was ahnnilated. I managed to kill 1 Vortex but not much of me was left. So late game is all Higs.

Now dont get me wrong... i enjoy a challenge and we all loved every minute of it, but after 8 or so games, Vaygr never won once.

My suggestions are 1. reduce vaygr research module back to 2000ru; 2. put the flak frigate in the research tree so that it needs to be researched after the frigate facility; 3. lower the armour of the Vortex. Huge fire power and their fast maneuverability is enough.
1.) Seems acceptable.

2.) So that means Hiigarians would have no Frigates to start with? Flak Frigates are fine as they are now.

3.) The Vortex's speed has already been decreased so it wouldn't be faster than missiles. Use Artillery Frigates to combat Vortex's. They're maneuverable enough to aim effectively against the Vortex. Artillery Frigates are like the Vaygr's Sniper Frigates. Use them. Also the Vortex's maneuverability means nothing against the Command Fortress. Thinking that I could easily take out a Vaygr Command Fortress with my lone Vortex was a big mistake now that beghins added some needed weapons to it. Needless to say, it ate up my Vortex pretty quick.

If you see your enemy creating lots of Vortex's, try sending some Dreadnaughts at his Mothership. With a Battlecruiser with a Hyperspace Module, you'll be able to get close enough to kill it. Or try testing the Vaygr Cruise Missiles on the Vortex and see if that is effective.

Also, you do realize that Vaygr's starting Frigate is the Heavy Missile Frigate? It's a great way to counter the Flak Frigates, in case you didn't see it building all those fighters. There are always ways to counter what the enemy is doing.