Homeworld 2 Complex 8.4.3

[wgd]

Originally Posted by Nerb
Then we get to late game and higs make those damn Vortex's. They are a game killer. I thought i was in for an even match when one player sent 2 Vortex's at me. I had 1 fully upgraded battle cruiser, 8 fully upgraded destroyers and more than 25 heavy missile frigates. Vaygr was ahnnilated. I managed to kill 1 Vortex but not much of me was left. So late game is all Higs.

Now dont get me wrong... i enjoy a challenge and we all loved every minute of it, but after 8 or so games, Vaygr never won once.

My suggestions are 1. reduce vaygr research module back to 2000ru; 2. put the flak frigate in the research tree so that it needs to be researched after the frigate facility; 3. lower the armour of the Vortex. Huge fire power and their fast maneuverability is enough.

If you want to simply reduce armour and speed you can change the stats of the Vortex(or any ship in the game) yourself with unfBIG. It's very simple actually.

The research module cost can also be changed in the same way, though I don't know about putting flaks on research.

[Draakje]

Had a nice long fight 2 days ago, 6 ai's after killing them all off except one it became mental.
Arrived at his start location with a nice fleet, encountered 10 dreadnaughts they wiped off half my fleet in one go.
Had to resort to cheap tactics (spammed those hig missles at them) and for some reason they completely ignored a nuke ship, rammed it into their mothership.
After that just spent dodging dreadnaughts trying to hunt down his carriers.
Love this mod, only problem i have is that resourcing takes so immensly long.
For some reason if i change some of the game rules in the custom game it crashes while loading.
Can turn of help and increase starting money but each other option results in qtd for me.

[Nerb]

Alkezo,

2. I meant that if flaks are moved into the research tree for frigates, another frigate can be available initially. I just think the flaks are too versitile to be so cheap.

3. the command fortress is fine if you can build one early enough. I will try artillery frigs next time.

4. I still dont use cruise missiles. We played one round where i just spammed cruise missiles and probes. Its not really fun. I think they can be removed from the game all together, or maybe just have a short range.

5. I do use lots of heavy missile frigates, specifically to counter flaks, but theyre still no match for a flak/bomber combination.

Maybe Vaygr could get something equivalent to the scavanger. I still find resourcing much more difficult with Vaygr, or as someone said earlier, HS gates could be used automatically by resourse collectors.

wgd... I could change it myself, but im commenting for the good of the community ;)

[Alkezo]

2. I meant that if flaks are moved into the research tree for frigates, another frigate can be available initially. I just think the flaks are too versitile to be so cheap.

3. the command fortress is fine if you can build one early enough. I will try artillery frigs next time.

4. I still dont use cruise missiles. We played one round where i just spammed cruise missiles and probes. Its not really fun. I think they can be removed from the game all together, or maybe just have a short range.

5. I do use lots of heavy missile frigates, specifically to counter flaks, but theyre still no match for a flak/bomber combination.
2.) The only other Frigate available at the initial stage is the Missile Frigate. The way Missile Frigates are designed they are quite capable against Fighters, Corvettes, as well as Frigates. Flak Frigates do exactly as they are designed to do. Eliminate smaller craft. The flak shells hardly do much to larger ships. Sure you could use Flak Frigates to take down other Frigates and Destroyers but there are other ships more capable at that. You could use a Heavy Kinetic cannon to shoot down fighters but that doesn't necessarily mean its as effective as other weapons. You want a good way to counter Flak Frigates? Use Storm Corvettes. They're more effective than you might think. A combination of Heavy Missile Frigates and Storm Corvettes would be on par with a squad of Bombers and Flak Frigates. Like I said before, there's always a way to counter an enemy's tactics.

3.) If you don't have a Command Fortress before the enemy has a fully upgraded Vortex headed your way, then there's not much to say. The Command Fortress may be expensive, however you should be able to afford one before Hiigarians can build a speed enhanced Vortex.

4.) Refusing to use Cruise Missiles because they're boring is the same as refusing to use Sniper Frigates because they look dumb. And just because you don't want to use a tool doesn't mean something needs to be removed from the game or one side needs to be balanced to accommodate your lack of perception.

5.) Why would you say that massing one type of ship isn't as effective as a combination of two ships and complain about it? Of course two different ships would be better than massing one ship! With the Flak's anti-fighter capabilities and the Bomber's anti-frigate power, its a wonder why the combination would win over Heavy Missile Frigates. If you built say, Storm Corvettes, then you may have had an equal chance as the other side winning. When you have ships with different expertise that cover the other's weakness, I would expect them to work well together.

Please think things through before screaming nerf. Complex may be more balanced than you may think. While every game has its quarks, it doesn't necessarily mean every conflict you see is an imbalance.

[wgd]

By the way, is the proximity sensor(PS for short) supposed to take one crew? There was this game where I maxed out on crew and I went ahead and built some PS's, and my crew count showed 1226/1225/1225.

I kept doing it and I ended up with 1300/1225/1225...weird? Laugh Out Loud.

I'm playing 6.4 but since nobody mentioned it before I'm assuming it hasn't been fixed in 6.5.1?

Also, where is the SHIP file for the PS? I want to mod it to have greater sensor range and armour and stuff.

[xxobot]

Or instead of putting the flak frigate on the tech tree make the missile frigate easier to make... along with the jumpgate... after all, Jumpgate is a central theme in hw2

also... nukes just don't seem... hiigaran... more of a vagyr thing...
and even the hiigaran mothership is overpowered compared to it's counterpart :twocents: :rant:

anyway... great mod besides balance issues :<3:

[beghins]

By the way, is the proximity sensor(PS for short) supposed to take one crew? There was this game where I maxed out on crew and I went ahead and built some PS's, and my crew count showed 1226/1225/1225.
I kept doing it and I ended up with 1300/1225/1225...weird? Laugh Out Loud.
I'm playing 6.4 but since nobody mentioned it before I'm assuming it hasn't been fixed in 6.5.1?
Yes, just fixed.
Is still there someone who use older versions here?
Please don't post bug if you don't have the 6.5.1, community has worked well to improve the 6 series, so download the last version.

[Coolcat]

try sending some Dreadnaughts at his Mothership. With a Battlecruiser with a Hyperspace Module, you'll be able to get close enough to kill it.
That's a bad idea. Best weapon against Dreadnaughts are Marine Frigates. If the enemy takes out the Battlecruiser with his Vortexes, the Dreadnaughts are helpless against Marine Frigates if they coming from different directions.

[Nerb]

Please think things through before screaming nerf. Complex may be more balanced than you may think. While every game has its quarks, it doesn't necessarily mean every conflict you see is an imbalance.

Ouch. Its not just me. All three of us agreed. When i play as Hig its all very even. How many times have you played Vaygr against other people?

[Ahto]

I agree totally with Alkezo on frigate issue. It is possible, if you can build frigates, to also immediately start researching Assault Frigate tech. These are more than adequate to take out fighters and corvettes. I've understood long time ago that one-type fleet is no use, one needs to mix different vessels to get the desired effect - to make your enemy a nice floating stardust! :)
Last night I used tactics that was way, way too effective! I built three Juggernauts and hyperspaced them up to the front with a light carrier. Then I sent them into enemy's base (with two Battlecuisers and two Battleships, Vaygr, of course). Juggernauts were fully upgraded and the resulting boom was so effective that Flagship was down to hald HP (was around 900 000), shipyard was instantly destroyed and so were all the other craft. I was thinking that perhaps, just to balance the game, it would be wise to set production limit to Juggernauts - only one at any time. This way, the Vaygr would have at least some chance. Even in the endgame, they wiped out everything. Scary, that is.
Another thing concerning Hiigaran Command Fortress. I know someone talked about the nukes and that when you fire a nuke, there's explosion at its launch. Why is it that? I lost great deal of corvettes because of that. Is it a bug?
And ions still do good damage.

[BGMF]

Allthough I have to agree that Vaygr is sometimes a little more difficult to play, I found it much harder to play as a Hiig, as I tried it last night... They spammed my with Missle and Infiltrator Frigates from different directions... I comitted suicide in the end - thats more honorable than beeing boarded or defeated in a classic way... ;-)
I agree, that nukes - especially the Juggernaught is very un-Hiigaran - they seem so - humanistic - somehow...
But as Alkezo said: you can counter everything - even hyperspaced Juggernaugts, if you let your MS be protected by 2 battleships and a Hyperspace Inhibitor.
What I would like is a more than single-shot hyperspace gate and a cheaper Resource Module. And maybe a Scavanger-counterpart for the Vaygr. And a Defence-Upgrade for Scavanger-like ships (2 Torpedo Launchers and 2 Reaper or something like that) - they are supposed to be an independent resource operation, so I guess they must be capable of defending themselfes...

[pvtchaos]

I know someone talked about the nukes and that when you fire a nuke, there's explosion at its launch. Why is it that? I lost great deal of corvettes because of that. Is it a bug?

Ive seen that too, it seems that one of the nuke's is hitting the command station itself. Probably the station is in the way of one of the nuke's flight path and so the nuke collide''s with the station, resulting in the detonation of the nuke.

[BGMF]

Some (probably well known) bugs:

Plattforms are not repaired wile in range of a Repair Module and even not be repaired by their repair upgrade (definitley on Vaygr side, on Hiigs - I'm not sure) - this is an old bug from v5.5

Multilance Corvettes seem to do no damgage and theire damagepoints are not displayed correctly, when selected.

If you tae a closer look to the light carrier, watch into his flight decks (the ones in the front of the ship) - you will see - well - whatever it is, I guess it's a texture-bug.

Hm.. Thats all for now. I didn't find anything new on Vaygr. The rest may be know some more Hiigaran related bugs.

But whatever bug I've encountered - I like this mod to much then these bugs bothers me around...

[Ahto]

I still concur with BGMF - Hiigaran players are at disadvantage in the early beginning. But the endgame is Hiigaran, I can assure that much. I played against one hard AI (Vaygr) and it was a nightmare in the beginning, wave after wave of fighters and frigates. But since Hiigaran production and upgrades, what makes them strong, are costly and really slow procesess, Hiigarans are like total unmoving target. Though, in the end, as I said before, they become very nice and strong.

[darkhelmet]

Thank you for this great modification to a great game.

[Jmendes]

I have played 2 games as higaran last night and the vaygr AI completely ignores my juggernaughts...

[Alkezo]

and even the hiigaran mothership is overpowered compared to it's counterpart
You forget that the Vaygr don't have the weakness of the Crew Station and Research Station.

That's a bad idea. Best weapon against Dreadnaughts are Marine Frigates. If the enemy takes out the Battlecruiser with his Vortexes, the Dreadnaughts are helpless against Marine Frigates if they coming from different directions.
Exactly, there is always a way to counter the enemy. If you see a weakness in the enemy, you utilize it. To counter that you could have a fleet of Artillery Frigates behind your Dreadnaughts to utilize their range to destroy any Marine Frigates that attempt to board your Dreadnaughts.

Ouch. Its not just me. All three of us agreed. When i play as Hig its all very even. How many times have you played Vaygr against other people?
I don't mean to be rude but how can all three of you agree on an imbalance when the fault lies solely on your refusal to use certain tools that are handed to you as well as using poor tactics against your enemy?

If you all played as Hiigarian then of course it would be evenly matched. 1 does indeed equal 1. However when you through in another variable, things get a little more complicated. Especially when you don't want a mirror image of the first one. Homeworld 2 is similar to "Rock-Paper-Scissors." If you use "a" ship thats good against "b" ship, then "c" ship would kill "a" ship but lose against "b" ship. Complex is less obvious of that and adds in the fact that ships such as the Battlecruiser would have firepower to deal with pretty much anything you throw at it. However this "Rock-Paper-Scissors" design still exists between the smaller class ships.

I play Complex with friends/family quite a bit. Most of the time I play as Hiigarians as my overall personality is always playing defensive in RTS games. Though sometimes I like to bring out the Vaygr to have a little variation and to further understand the strengths and weaknesses of them. With over a year of playing Complex since version 5.5, I believe I have a great sense of balance in this mod. While everything I say may not be necessarily true, I think that I have a pretty good understanding of how Complex is supposed to be.

I was thinking that perhaps, just to balance the game, it would be wise to set production limit to Juggernauts - only one at any time.
You could try using the Vaygr's Cruise Missiles on the Juggernaughts or using Fighters against them. One thing that Fighters are still useful at is destroying subsystems. If you can build enough bombers to take out the engine subsystems the target us pretty much a sitting duck. A Vortex that can't move loses its maneuverability advantage and a Juggernaught that can't move can't get to it's target.

And ions still do good damage.
Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, at least for me. I still can't really figure out what causes them to do near 0 damage. It's a rather strange bug. Perhaps beghins or someone could look back at the 5.5 code and see what has changed? Maybe some variable was altered that changed how the Ion Cannons worked.

What I would like is a more than single-shot hyperspace gate and a cheaper Resource Module. And maybe a Scavanger-counterpart for the Vaygr. And a Defence-Upgrade for Scavanger-like ships (2 Torpedo Launchers and 2 Reaper or something like that) - they are supposed to be an independent resource operation, so I guess they must be capable of defending themselfes...
I don't think the Hyperspace gates should be more than one-shot movement. It would allow free hyperspace pretty much anywhere for Frigate and smaller class ships. Besides the Hyperspace Gates aren't that expensive so you can just build more.

While the Scavenger is indeed supposed to be an independent resource operation, adding that much firepower would provide too easy a defense against smaller craft. If such a research was implemented, it would have to be very expensive and become available after the Research Division. Research Division era would be too powerful against the cheaper and smaller ships. The Engineering Division would probably be too late to be of use, with the Capital ships running amok everywhere. The Science Division era would probably be the best spot for it, however I find myself the most active during this time. With so many new researches, upgrades, ships, and modules I never seem to have enough RU for them all. Since Sniper Frigates become available at this time, I spend most of my RU developing those ships with little else left to build. This is my own strategy and other people could be very different. On the other hand, you gain access to the Minegun Corvettes, the Shiry and Heavy Bomber Fighters, and I believe (Ion) Destroyers.

Plattforms are not repaired wile in range of a Repair Module and even not be repaired by their repair upgrade (definitley on Vaygr side, on Hiigs - I'm not sure) - this is an old bug from v5.5

Multilance Corvettes seem to do no damgage and theire damagepoints are not displayed correctly, when selected.
Hmm, I should try testing that. I normally don't focus on Platforms for the Vaygr as they seem... less interesting than the Hiigarian's. I do believe the Hiigarian's Platforms repair though.

The Multilance Corvettes has always shown 0 attack power since version 5.5, but they used to be my favorite Vaygr ship. Though I think in version 6+ they actually don't do damage. I remember them being pretty effective regardless of the shown damage but now they don't seem to be so hot anymore. I would normally say that using Multilance Corvettes would be a good strategy but now they seem a bit buggy, probably very similar to the Ion bug.

I don't mean to be hostile to anyone but I suppose some things make me a little annoyed.

[BurningFeetMan]

I have played 2 games as higaran last night and the vaygr AI completely ignores my juggernaughts...

I managed to capture an enemy juggernaught, then spin it around, and ram it into the other enemy juggernaught that wasn't too far behind. Blew up 5 enemy destroyers and about 20 frigs. This was one of my best gaming moments ever, it was absolutely hilarious. Note, that their mothership WAS running away from my newly captured juggernaught, although it was not my target. ;)

That game went well with out a single crash, although last nights game (ver 6.5.1) crashed in the first battle. Only a hand full of fighters, Corvs and a couple of frigs and destroyers, nothing too serious. Game locked up, including the mouse, but the music kept on playing.

Still experiencing SMOOTHNESS interrupted by odd jitters/jerks that really break the flow of the game.

Resolution 1920 x 1200
E6600 - P5B Deluxe - 1226 firmware
8800GTS - 169 drivers
2 gig ram
All other anti-virus and other background applications paused/terminated.

I'll be formatting for Windows XP Sp3 soon, and I will install Complex first and tell you all how it goes on a fresh system.

[DJ Die]

viper/cruise missile strategy is very stupid not only its not fun but it doesnt require any skill or tactical thinking you just build as many as you can and send them to kill enemy caps
its like zergling rush tactics i hate so much because they are simply stupid and easy to do

as for jugs ive seen AIs attacking jug with jug it was fun guess who won? :)

Vaygr realy are weaker because other expensive res module its needs to cost same amount of res as before

[BGMF]

Stop that talking about the Zergling Rush anyway ;-)
In games v.s. AI I find them very "attractive" to counter all those carriers floating around in space... I still want to have some fun, so I use only small amounts of them. By the way: you negative honor points on using them - they commit suicide, so in early game you will not often do a rush with them if you want higher ranks...
And in later games it's not so difficult to kill them!

@Alkezo: I agree that the poor variosity of plattforms make them quite useless in later games, but anyway - I like the idea of plattforms.

@beghins: Can you PLEASE think about some new plattforms for Vaygr - Lance Beam Plattforms and Pulsar Laser Plattforms - Or fusion Missle Plattforms? A precondition to build them not to early - comaparable to the build tree of Hiigaran high-tech plattforms? I hope I'm not the only one who would like such plattforms. I only think this would be a good chance to strenghten the weaker Vaygr MS...

What do the rest of you think about it?

[Sithicus]

Um... I wanna heavy ion cannon, defence shield and nuclear missile platforms ;)
Hyperspace mines would be great. :science:

[BGMF]

*g* I'm trying to be serious ;-)

These are just suggestions of possible plattform - doesn't mean I want them all. One type would be enaough for the beginning.
btw: Hiigs have 5! As you know...

[Nerb]

Alkezo... so you know im not bullshitting, im uploading a video to youtube for you. Its me, playing hig against a hard Vaygr. Game starts, i built 4 resourse collectors, a frigate module then clicked flak about 20 times. As soon as i had 5 flaks i sent them to Vaygr mothership. He had bombers which lasted about 3 seconds, then i attacked his MS. Soon another 4 flaaks arrived and my 9 flak frigates destroyed his mother ship. Game was over at year 9.

Now anyone can do this. The stratagy works for any difficulty level. Even if Vaygr builds some missile frigates, he cant build enough in such a short time.

Now please, tell me you still dont think flaks are too powerful to early!

[video link to follow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-yPaiMSSqU

Unfortunately i had to cut off the first and last 5 minutes since youtube only lets a maximum of 10 minutes, and the quality makes it impossible to read the year, but trust me... year 9/40 and it was all over.

[Draconica]

Maybe reduce the damage flak frigates do to the Mothership/Super capital class ships?

[xxobot]

Funny... I never use flak frigates... I use the mother ship's flak guns... and then missiles... and then ions... I always approach an enemy ms first (with defense field on)

[vila]

First post from a newbie - hello to everyone.

I'm a relative newbie to the whole HW2 concept, not just Complex - only got it about 2 months ago. I sometimes found myself strangely unsatisfied compared with the original HW, but this mod is absolutely brilliant! Well done and thanks to everyone involved in its development.

I've only played Hiigaran so far on Complex, don't often play Vaygr anyway, and I really like most of the new ship types, particularly the intruder and the sniper frigate. The sniper is a real stonker!

I have a few questions:

1. What is the purpose of the Evacuation System? The build menu description seems to suggest it's a method of saving the crew of a doomed ship, scuttling the ship in the process. As I was gearing up for a big confrontation I thought I'd try installing the system wherever possible. I then watched helplessly as my MS, CF, 4 vortexes, 4 BCs and 3 light carriers were all blown to bits! I was not amused. I don't understand the principle of a module that just destroys the ship it's installed on.

2. I have assumed that the productivity of a Mining Base increases in proportion to the number of resourcers docked with it. Is this true and, if so, is there limit to the number that can be docked?

3. Have the docking limits for all carrier-type ships been abandoned or have they been increased to a level I haven't explored yet?

[DJ Die]

2. yes it also increases with mining upgrades for collectors afaik max number of collectors in one base is 40 just build enough containers to pick all RUs they produce

3. i think they are same just check if you arent docking lots of ships that dont have full HP eg. fighters that just came into range of defence module this takes a long time to repair and they stack docked untill repaired or manualy launched


as for vipers taking your honor: so what? you dont need it anyway you just spam those missiles and enemy doesnt stand a change of doing something that would endanger you thats why they suck so much there is hardly any defence against them too fast and durable its hard to stop them even in later stage of game

[xxobot]

Tango mines, you forgot the tango mines...

ps. evac system is meant to be built when the ship is in trouble, simply because it DOES scuttle the ship, it's simply meant to save your crew before the ship dies. The end

[BGMF]

Ok DJ, maybe the HP for Cruise and Viper Missles should be decreased, but espacially for Vaygr I find those missles very adequate. Hiigs have the Juggernaught.

If you are afraid about the possibility of a rush, than you also should remove Flak Frigates - as shown before - and others...
Just to remove is no answer. Weaken the missles HP (a little!) would be appropriate - for my opinion. So that it is a little easier to kill them.

[Nerb]

If you are afraid about the possibility of a rush, than you also should remove Flak Frigates - as shown before - and others...
Just to remove is no answer. Weaken the missles HP (a little!) would be appropriate - for my opinion. So that it is a little easier to kill them.

Ive been thinking about it... if the mother ship defense guns were much more powerful at the start, it would negate any rush issues. It would force an attacker to build a much more significant force to attack the MS but would still let the use of flaks or other smaller ships to take out resourcing and carriers and things.

[DJ Die]

well when playing MP games those missiles are fobidden simply because theres no way to defend against them properly they should be slow and vulnerable to force tactical deployment rather than all out spam

as for Flak frigates they realy should do less damage to frigates and above but otherwise they are fine and if you build rapid sweeper subsystem on your MS frigates cant kill it unless theres horde of them once you have torpedo subsystem and shield they become useless anyway....

[BGMF]

Ok, then we all agree that a little bit of rebalancing is in need - I would suggest, that those long range suicide missles should be as fast (or slow) as ordinary torpedos are plus a little weaker in health points, that i can be killed by adequate countermeasures... beghins? Can you consider this in your next release?
This and I would like to have at least one new kind of Vaygr platforms... ;-)

[Ahto]

I tend to agree with BGMF (again :D) that the missiles are way too good. I once built six of them and sent all of them to destroy Vaygr Shipyard. All of them got to there and detonated though Vaygr was amassing serious attack to stop them. I think only one of them was destroyed. Missiles should be extremly vulnerable to samll craft, this way you can justify their existence in the endgame. They're no use against larger ships at all (except subsystem killers).
And, what I have also seen is that the AI like "gives up" at some point. I know, Alkezo told that the AI behaves "erratically", meaning differently in different times but that I have seen on many occasions. Either it is relentless or just waits there to be finished off. Perhaps it's possible to "nudge" the AI in the next releases to be more active on most of the cases? I know, we bombard beghins with all this all the time, everyone has their own taste...
Has anyone played Point Defence System? Sorry, but this mod is utter crap! beghin's work is ten times better!

[BGMF]

Yeah - I played it a year or two ago... Didn't like. Too fast an agile Frigates, Destroyers and Carriers. Floating around even more agile than the Vortex - which is, btw, a real funny but - if you have to play against it - annoying ship. It's the only one of its kind, so I like it, but if all big ships would behave that way...
But: They had some real cool ship-designs!
If theire wouldn't already be enough cap-ships, I liked the Hiigaran Light Cruiser, Hiigaran Attack Carrier, Vaygr Missle Cruiser and Vaygr Battle Carrier (I'm not sure about the last name) from Tactical Fleet Simulator - short TFS - mod for HW2. But except from the Hiigarans there might be allready enough cap-ships. But I liked the Idea - but maybe if beghis could talk to them, maybe it would be possible to use for some sub-races... I know - old hat - difficult to implement, but...
Never mind.
This mod is already great and no other mod and not the original game made me play HW2 over and over again. These are only suggestions (to even make an outstanding mod better - if this is possible).

Beghins - let this mod boldy go where no mod was ever before!

Btw, Cruise Missles are also good to weaken an attack - one missle and a destroyer is gone :-)

[Nerb]

I also think the cruise missiles could just have a short range so they can be used defensively but not used to attack the enemy MS without jumping over there.

And on the topic of other mods, i just tried the BSG one and thought it was crap. I think we're all spoiled by Complex. Nothing else can live up to it!

[xxobot]

And on the topic of other mods, i just tried the BSG one and thought it was crap. I think we're all spoiled by Complex. Nothing else can live up to it!

Yes... I feel it hardly worth working on my mod anymore...

[Tingmore]

I believe Nerb, DJ Die and BGMF are right. Specifically in that cruise missiles are a game killer. Some of the suggestions to tone them down are good - less HP, defensive range only. May I add another one into the fray? If you increase the amount of crew required to build and operate one at least this puts somewhat of a cap on the number you can hoarde and send out in one shot. I played this one game against some cruise missile freak who was building just probes and cruise missiles. Still, I thought I'd wait until his 6-7 cruise missiles were really close to my mothership before destroying his last probe and thereby sending them back to base. Knowing they would take a while to get back I hyperjumped my destroyer fleet to his MS only to find another 10 cruise missiles waiting for me.

Nice video, Nerb, but I think that flak frigates are actually TOO WEAK. Just kidding. I've experienced the same thing. In order for me to have a meaningful game v. CPU I have to hold back and wait for a while until they enemy can build up a force. Sometimes when I feel like I need to see a Vortex in action, I'll have 2 battlegroups of 3 flak frigates roaming around culling the enemy resource pipeline as I see fit to control their expansion and fleet building abilities. I like some of the suggestions thrown around here so far, i.e. move flaks higher up the tech tree, make them strong only against fighters, etc.

By the way, awesome mod Beghins and Co. Excellent work, we all appreciate the time and dedication you've put into it. Thanks.

[Alkezo]

Okay now this is just getting ridiculous. No one else realizes that video proves nothing? It's quite obvious that just bombers would be annihilated by Flak Frigates. What the hell would you expect? The Bombers to take out the Flak Frigates? This is NOT about how poorly the AI decides in building his ships. If he spent his resourcing to build Heavy Missile Frigates your story would of turned out differently. Showing game balance means nothing when testing against the AI, due to the fact that they are not human. They can't act freely or willfully change their strategy. They're thinking process is solely limited to the programming that's given to them. If you found a way to eliminate an AI without hardly lifting of finger, then the issue is about the AI. It is NOT about game balance what-so-ever.

So if the AI had spent the same amount of resourcing in building Heavy Missile Frigates, do you think the game would of been unbalanced because his frigates beat your frigates? Of course the AI didn't even have his Mothership upgraded for a mere 1000 RU that would of also changed your story around. Flak Frigates will always eat Fighter class ships no matter what. But if you can mass enough of any kind of ship then you can take out a Battlecruiser class ship. The only reason Flak Frigates will always be better than smaller ships is due to the fact that their attack is AoE. They do damage to more than just their target. That's the only fact that makes the Flak Frigates so good. But that AoE means nothing to larger ships so the only advantage they have means nothing against those larger ships.

[Tingmore]

Sure, there are issues with computer AI, but if you can't extrapolate from those analogies the potential issues relating to game balance then perhaps more direct comparisons can be made.

Correct me if I'm wrong in this comparison -
In order for me to start building Flak Frigates I need to build: Frigate Facility
In order for me to start building Heavy Missile Frigates I need to build: Research Module, Research Frigate Chassis, Frigate Chassis

I might be wrong there because I don't play Vaygr much, I can't recall what all the prereqs are, or if those are the right ones.

Or this comparison -
If a Vaygr player built 3 Heavy Missile Frigates and sent them to my base and I built nothing but bombers, there is no way those 3 HM Frigates would have done nearly as much damage to critical infrastructure as my Flaks before being destroyed.

Or this one -
Assault frigates are supposedly the Vaygr's anti-fighter ship. Face off 3 Assault Frigates against 10 squadrons of bombers and see how closely matched they are. Do the same with 3 Flak Frigates.

The point about balance really is that the Flaks are too quick to get to and/or they are too powerful. This may be toned down by making them more expensive, making them further up the tech tree, reducing damage to certain types of ships, etc. You can't honestly say that three Flaks taking out what it did in that video is balanced, can you? They took out the bombers, the resource pipeline, the carrier and the mothership without one being destroyed - well, looks like 2 accidentally ran into one of the ships.

Saying that the video primarily shows a weakness in the computer AI is a fair comment. But to say it doesn't at all show game balance issues is pushing it a little. Sure, you can upgrade your MS, but will your MS then be able to protect your whole resource pipeline without major hinderance to RU flow - a critical issue for Vaygr especially at the start?

[Alkezo]

The Vaygr's initial Frigate is the Heavy Missile Frigate. Guess what it's good for? Killing Frigates and Capital ships. The damage the Flak Frigate does is insignificant to the damage a Heavy Missile Frigate can do to larger ships. While the Heavy Missile Frigates would be less effective against smaller ships, you can potentially devastate the Hiigarians by targeting their Research Station, which doesn't take very much to kill at all.

For a better balance point of view say there is a player that is building Bombers, while his enemy is building Assault Frigates. The Assault Frigates are going to win due to having a higher survival rate of smaller ships. But if you have a player that builds Flak Frigates while the other builds Heavy Missile Frigates, you can't expect the Flak Frigates to win against something that was designed to kill frigates.

All of your comparisons are not true comparisons at all. You say 3 Heavy Missile Frigates would do less damage to the enemy than 3 Flak Frigates? First of all, if you have ships that are good against fighters and your opponent has fighters, thats going to happen? Once you destroy his main force it doesn't matter if he starts changing what units he's building if you're already next to his mothership destroying whatever he builds before they can hardly react. This holds true for every RTS. If you've managed to destroy enough of his base where you destroy units faster than he builds them, then you win. It doesn't matter if you have 20 Heavy Missile Frigates, Flak Frigates, or 1,000,000 Scouts. If you have the firepower to destroy the enemy before they can destroy any of your units, its an assured win. Besides, if the Vaygr had put more resources in upgrading his Mothership, it wouldn't of been the same. With only 7-9 Flak Frigates the Torpedoes and Kinetic Cannons would of destroyed them faster than you could of sent them.

You can't honestly say that three Flaks taking out what it did in that video is balanced, can you? They took out the bombers, the resource pipeline, the carrier and the mothership without one being destroyed - well, looks like 2 accidentally ran into one of the ships.
Did you even watch the video? He definitely had more than 3 just Flak Frigates. At the start of the video he had 8 with 1 halfway damaged. I don't know about you but I'm pretty sure 8 is greater than 3. If those 8 Flak Frigates were Heavy Missile Frigates, they would of taken out the Mothership much quicker than in that video. You also forget that Missiles are very effective against Fighters as well. For instance the Destoyer's Missiles do a pretty good job on Fighters because the Fighters don't try to dodge them. So I would say the Heavy Missile Frigates could very well eliminate the Fighters as well. Like I've already stated before, if you can mass enough units to overwhelm the enemy, then you're going to win solely due to the fact that your damage output from so many ships is higher than the enemy's smaller, yet stronger, force.

Saying that the video primarily shows a weakness in the computer AI is a fair comment. But to say it doesn't at all show game balance issues is pushing it a little. Sure, you can upgrade your MS, but will your MS then be able to protect your whole resource pipeline without major hinderance to RU flow - a critical issue for Vaygr especially at the start?
If the AI built the wrong ships to counter the Flak Frigates then of course its solely based on the AI's decision to build those ships. Because the AI focused on building fighters and the player focused on building anti-fighter ships, then it's a wonder he won... If i were to play that as Vaygr, all I would need to focus on would be Heavy Missile Frigates and Missile Platforms. With my upgraded Mothership could focus on destroying the smaller ships, the Frigates and Platforms will insure protection from Frigates and even Destroyers. There is also the fact that the Vaygr Carriers are cheaper and quicker to build than Hiigarian Carriers. Plus the fact that they don't need to use Officers on the Research Station, you can expand your resourcing much faster than Hiigarians while also building your fleet.

[Nerb]

It doesn't matter if you have 20 Heavy Missile Frigates, Flak Frigates, or 1,000,000 Scouts

I dont think you can build 1,000,000 scouts. Crew will be an issue.

Your comments would be fair if they had any truth to them. I am going to make another video for you. This time flaks only v's heavy missile frigates only (this is the basis of your argument). Im pretty sure the flaks will win. Why you ask? Because...

Vaygr will spend 6650ru and 360seconds to produce their first missile frigate

Hig will spend in 320seconds 5200ru and will have 5 flak frigates.

5 flak frigates will easily take out 1 missile frigates. The 5 flaks dont even have to attack the MS, just concentrate on destroying resourcing operations and hig will have such a huge lead that Vaygr will never catch up. And remember that you said...

If i were to play that as Vaygr, all I would need to focus on would be Heavy Missile Frigates and Missile Platforms. With my upgraded Mothership could focus on destroying the smaller ships, the Frigates and Platforms will insure protection from Frigates and even Destroyers

Do you realise how long it takes to build frigs AND platforms. And forget about upgrading your MS. That takes forever.

Flaks are too strong too early. Let there be no doubt.

Alternatively

MS is too weak too early. I think giving the MS an arsenal at the start will solve all our problems (or Alkezo's lack of them)

[xxobot]

:slow: wow... responses that long and readable must mean something... I'm gonna have to go with Tingmore, unless someone can actually show video evidence of their theory... (cue video evidence)

btw, I vote flak has to be researched...

ps. (how did tingmores post get below mine?!?)

[Tingmore]

The Vaygr's initial Frigate is the Heavy Missile Frigate. Guess what it's good for? Killing Frigates and Capital ships...

... I don't know about you but I'm pretty sure 8 is greater than 3...
I have played the game before and although I may not be able to count very well I still don't think there is a need to be so condescending in your replies. If I remember correctly we are trying to have a constructive discussion in the mutual interest of making this mod better for everybody?

Enough about my inability to count and back to our favourite subject - flak frigates. Help me out here by bearing with me for this little exercise...

Which of the following statements are not true:

o Assuming you know that your opponent is going to build flak frigates and come after you, you won't bother much with fighters. Even if you do, we've established that they'll be of little effect.

o In the time it takes to build 3-4 flaks and send them a fair way towards your base (on a small 1v1 map), you may have just finished building your first missile frigate. This is a pretty conservative assumption given Nerb's calculations.

o In the time it takes for 1 missile frigate to destroy 3-4 flak frigates, the flak frigates can land a devastating blow to your resource pipeline.

If you refute any of the above statements, I'd be surprised.

Given that fact, you now have half if not less of your intial resource collectors, a reduced RU flow and the Hiigarans have had the time it takes to either expand their resource pipeline or be well into building their capital ship facility.

I'm not saying that's unbalanced, but... well... actually, I guess I am. It's a little bit unbalanced, no? Perhaps a part of the problem is what is required to get to your first HM Frigate: research module, research chassis, build frigate chassis. That's a lot of time and money.

If you play on larger maps where the travelling time for the Flaks give you enough room to wiggle to build a big enough defense, you should be fine. But on 1v1 maps, Vaygr's have a steep and virtually insurmountable uphill battle from the get go.

[Ahto]

My small input - I'm not sure because I do not use Flaks at all (unless I need some protection pronto), but Missile Frigate is supposed to have higher HP if I am not mistaken. Missiles start with around 30 000 and Flaks around 20 000, no? In my case, I have given up on using them because they were wiped out too fast. Honestly, I really haven't encountered the problem you talk here about. But, I'll give it a try.
Ah, just remembered. I really don't understand one thing - maps are usually around 40-60000, aren't they? There are smaller ones and larger ones but for Flaks to reach enemy base would take some time. By that time, enemy would be building all kinds of frigates because Vaygr always start with them.

[Nerb]

Yes... I feel it hardly worth working on my mod anymore...

oops, sorry xxobot. It does look like there has been a lot of work put into it, it just seemed very simple and the units seem tiny. I'll still give it a go though.

[beghins]

OK, 2-3 days out the definitive 6.6, I've worked on Flak and Cruise/Viper too, many other fixes and some new features like the Heavy Nuclear Bomb and a new role of the Hiigaran Shuttle, see the screen and image what will happen once the Shuttle will arrive to its destination...

http://www.homeworld2complex.com/images/action/sa31.jpg

[Babbo]

This is great news, thanks, so we'll have a great weekend! Allow to ask, maybe, couldn't we have a - small :D - new map?

[DJ Die]

simply replace flak frigate with missiles frigate as hiigs base frig and decrease cost and build time of vaygr res module problem solved
you have to research flak while you still have antifighter capability

[Tingmore]

MMMMmmmm... stuff.

I absolutely love it when things do stuff. I don't know what shuttles are for, but that looks definitively COOL.

Thanks Beghins & the Complex Team.

[BGMF]

I'm not perfectly sure, but it looks like that shuttles become a huge Juggernaught-Mover. To pull up to 4 Juggs to the enemy - an unlucky one, I must add!

I'm excited, what else would be new in 6.6!

Can you remember playing 6.0 in the early days? It's incredible, how Complex has grown since then!
Great job behins & crew!

edit: About that picture - maybe other ships cann be added to - destroyers for example. would that ship become a star destroyer or super star destroyer than??? :confused:

[Ahto]

A small, tiny squeak for some assistance - how do I make normal "sense" out of the files found inside the original HW2 .big file? I am not talking about .SHIP-files but others, too. Can anyone tell me where to find relevant information-resources?

[MaxTech]

Played a game of Complex 6.5.1 and building some vortex from a shipyard I built from another shipyard, and the vortex had no modules. Nothing was even displayed to be built, no defense tower or anything else, and none of the other weapons either. Match was me(hig) and computer(vagyr) vs a computer(vagyr) and computer(hig). I had build a lot of ion destroyers and some BCs without any problems and then put 4 vortex in queue and when done they still had no module options showing. Built a few bombers and then another vortex, and that last one did have module options. Is this a know bug? Hopefully fixed with immanent release of 6.6.

[Alkezo]

It only took me about an hour to test which is effective and I can assure you the results aren't what you thought it was.

As Hiigarian I did exactly as Nerb did and produced Flak Frigates. As soon as I had 5 I sent them to the enemy and way-pointed all the other ones that were being built to near the enemy Mothership. The enemy had focused on building mainly Platforms and Corvettes. Now I was doing pretty good however I was unable to destroy the enemy as fast as was planned due to him having more than just one platform (and not fighters) at a time (surprise...). I eventually lost all of my Flak Frigates and since I only focused on building Flak Frigates, I had no Research Station nor a Crew Station to restore my Crew. I lose.

As Vaygr I focused on building Heavy Missile Frigates. By year 3 I had around 4 frigates and sent them to attack the Hiigarian enemy. While doing this I also researched Assault Frigates to deal with any Fighters I may need to destroy. The enemy had primarily built Fighters and Corvettes, both of which the Heavy Missile Frigates were unable to attack. So I sent in my Heavy Missile Frigates and destroyed a few resource collectors and their Crew Station. By then I had some Assault Frigates to destroy their smaller craft. Now Assault Frigates aren't nearly as effective against Corvettes as Flak Frigates are, their anti-fighter power is still pretty good. They also do more damage to Platforms than Flak Frigates. By year 8 I had won.

Both CPU were on Standard. The Flak Frigates aren't as effective as you say, as my test showed that rushing as Hiigarian isn't as good as an idea as it seems. Both times the AI did not have extra resourcing operations, so destroying their resource pipeline was moot.

So it seems that the Vaygr, while slower at first, turned out more effective than Hiigarian due to the fact that Heavy Missile Frigates do so much damage to larger ships. Combine that with the Assault Frigate to take out the smaller craft, I don't think the Hiigarian's Flak/Missile Frigate combination would be as effective, mainly due to the fact that the Missile Frigates require to be upgraded to have anti-frigate capabilities. There is also the fact that the Vaygr don't need to restore their Crew as the Hiigarians do. So rushing isn't a problem for them at all. Once they lose a ship they can just build another one without much hassle or waiting for crew to replenish.

Playing both sides I can assume that by the time the Flak Frigates reach my base, I will have enough Heavy Missile Frigates to take on his 5+ Flak Frigates. He can send more but so can I.

[wgd]

Yay 6.6!!! But can we focus less on WMDs and more on strategy? So is the shuttle like a mega-suicide ship now?

Anyways, I was thinking of giving more firepower/armour to fighter class ships because late in the game they are useless, and no fleet can look good without fighters...

And I would really like an increased unit cap, larger maps = Longer game.



Thanks!!!

[Nerb]

Its really good to see your test of the same thing. When i played, the AI was building bombers and heavy missile platforms. I concentrated on destroying them first because the MS does pretty much no damage to the frigates. On the crew front, I acknowledge that flaks were limited by the crew, but after building 10 flaks you could start thinking about crew stations. I just didnt bother for the test, probably the same for you.
I think we've both showed that there is no real challenge to beating the AI on any difficulty. I think MS defence may be the key here.

We really need to test pvp which i will be doing probably tonight. (was busy watching Lost last night *hides from flamers*). However I still feel confident that the flaks will take out the missile frigs. I encourage you to play Vaygr against a friend if you havnt in the past. Or of course im always up for a game if ping isnt too bad from one side of the planet to the other.


Playing both sides I can assume that by the time the Flak Frigates reach my base, I will have enough Heavy Missile Frigates to take on his 5+ Flak Frigates

Big maps are the saving grace for Vaygr. But tests will be the judge.

Beghins... in your "team" on the website, you have listed quite a few helpers. Are they all still around? Do you need any other help?

[xxobot]

oops, sorry xxobot. It does look like there has been a lot of work put into it, it just seemed very simple and the units seem tiny. I'll still give it a go though.

alot of work... not really... :Loco: alot of thought... yes... :Loco:
I was gonna wait till I figured out how to make campaigns till I did major work... because there is really no point doing much if what I do will become defunct... confused yet?


And on the topic of other mods, i just tried the BSG one and thought it was crap. I think we're all spoiled by Complex. Nothing else can live up to it!

btw your challenge is accepted, at least in the form of mini mods I'm gonna make, and besides, I intend to learn from the best.... what is better than complex?

[Ahto]

I tried the Flak rush out and what a wonder - I was wiped out. By the time my frigate facility was complete and I had about 6 or 7 Flak frigates, the enemy was building destroyers! Though, yes, Flaks were pretty good against both Heavy Missile frigates and even destroyer, they were useless and helpless against platforms. Two-three hits from a platform missile and the frigate was alsmost gone. Add to this relentless bombers and other enemy frigates, I was wiped out pretty fast.

[DJ Die]

simple flak rush can beat inexperienced or unsuspecting enemy but otherwise its better to use those frigs just for defence i prefer to build destroyer and they rush for BC and Vortex/BS

[xxobot]

wrong place for a strategy debate perhaps?

ps. complex should have a developers section to itself... I mean... OVER TWO THOUSAND POSTS...

[BurningFeetMan]

Dear beghins,

I would like donate some money to your team for this mod. It's fantastic. Really, it's the best thing I've played for the past year.

It's better than,

Supreme Commander & Forged Alliance
Guildwars: All the expansions
Trackmania: United
Half Life 2
Team Fortress 2
Portal
Peggle: Delux
Rollercoaster Tycoon 3: Platinum
Theme Hospital
Syndicate Wars
Open Transport Tycoon
Simcity 4: Rush Hour

Gah, I've played tonnes more games, but this is the one I keep coming back to spending HOURS in front of!

It's official. Homeworld 2 Complex Mod is the best game out on the market!

[Jean=A=Luc]

I dunno BFM, you might be stretching it a bit with Theme Hospital. :)

[Ringleader]

How did he code splash damage for capital ship explosions?

[BGMF]

Don't ask us, Ringleader.
Ask him! :-) (that means: ask beghins)

[Fasta]

Just for advanced Complex gurus outhere :

Question :How many Vaygr fighters will need to clean one Vortex from the universe in complex 6.5?

Answer : See for yourself (http://pwp.netcabo.pt/seuagrub/public/vortex%20vs.vaygrfighters.zip) :D

[Nerb]

I tried the Flak rush out and what a wonder - I was wiped out

What? What did you do? Pansy foot around. Dont waste your money on anything else...and dont waste time. Just build flak and send them straight over there. Use the rally point button. If you want, keep your first 2 flak out of range of his MS and and just take out fighters and platforms. Once you get 5 or so, go for the kill. You cant go wrong.


I would like donate some money to your team for this mod
Theres a donate button on his homepage at homeworld2complex.com


simple flak rush can beat inexperienced or unsuspecting enemy
I challenge you. I claim that a flak rush is impossible to beat by any player. Particularly if flaks concentrate on only taking out resoursers, then vaygr will collapse and theres no way to defend against it.

[DJ Die]

i dont play as vaygr or to be precise we always play as same race to keep it balanced

[Tingmore]

Ahto: when you first start, with your 3000RU, build a frigate facility and 2 flak frigates. send those 2 flak frigates to the enemy base and focus on destroying resource collectors. in the mean time, queue 3 more flak frigates to build and waypoint them to the enemy base.

Once this is done, you can then focus on expanding your own resource pipeline, or whatever... IF they manage to get rid of your 5 flak frigates somehow, they will be in no position to put up a challenge your superior strategic and tactical might!! VWOMP!!!! - That's the sound of you swooping in and wiping out those evil, dastardly Vaygr.

[Alkezo]

Once you get 5 or so, go for the kill. You cant go wrong.
That's exactly what I did and lost. I started with 5000RU with 7 Resource Collectors and immediately built a Frigate Facility and queued 20 Flat Frigates. As soon as I got 4 I sent them to the enemy with the 5th on its way. The enemy had Missile Platforms and I couldn't destroy them fast enough. If I had focused on his resourcing then I would of lost even faster because he was pumping out Missile Platforms and Corvettes. Assault Frigates do more damage to Resource Collectors anyways.

I challenge you. I claim that a flak rush is impossible to beat by any player. Particularly if flaks concentrate on only taking out resoursers, then vaygr will collapse and theres no way to defend against it.
I play against experienced players and I now for a fact that a Flak rush will spell your inevitable demise as your limited crew and slacking research will hold you back further than your enemy. If I lost my Flak rush against a STANDARD AI, then I'm pretty sure I wouldn't win against an Expert AI, let alone an experienced player.

IF they manage to get rid of your 5 flak frigates somehow, they will be in no position to put up a challenge your superior strategic and tactical might!!
If they managed to destroy your initial Flak Frigates, you lose. As I stated above, you will be further behind than your enemy. You will lack the Crew and the Research to keep up with him. Even if you started building a Crew/Research station after those first few Frigates, you will still be behind because you focused all your resources on trying to rush, leaving you very little to fall back on.

[Nerb]

Can you do it again and record it so i can see what your doing? I dont know what your doing wrong. When i arrived with 5 flak frigates he has missile platforms too, but the flaks took them out in seconds. Do you get your flaks to pick platforms one at a time or do you let them attack all platforms at once?

Lets got together online and play a round. The weekend is here... you pick a time, preferably my night time, otherwise my daughter keeps tugging on my arm while im trying to play.

Anyway, maybe we should take this debate to another thread. We're filling Behgins thread with material thats no longer constructive.

[adamstrange]

Played 5 games against the AI and I lost every single one of the matches.

First off this mod is the very best as far as features and this is what the game should have been from the beginning.

Nice new explosion effects for the Capitals.

The mining system is exactly what I wanted for my mod because it plays similar to the game O.R.B
The Scavenger ships are totally cool but I don't understand what the RU supply units on it do.

Also if you build more than 1 Scavenger and you upgrade its Fusion System,does each one of these Scavengers multiply the amount RU,s taken in over time ?

I do have a few gripes with the mod though but maybe thats because I may not know how to utilize the new features properly.

The starting resources are too too low.

5000 is not enough,especially against an AI that seems to cheat.

I played a 1 vs 1 as the HGN against the CPU VGR.

I just can't imagine how the vgr built their forces so fast.

In each match it took about an hour before I could start building any combat ships period.

By then I was only able to build the Gunship Corvette and standard Fighters and Bombers.

The VGR on the other hand were already sending out Heavy Missile Frigates,Fighters,Bombers,and Multilance Corvettes.

They also very quickly setup the Power Disruptor on their shipyard so I couldn't attack that with the few ships that I had.

It takes forever just to even build the Marine Frigates so in the first 2 matches by the time I finally built one and captured the Mining Base they had sent out over 2 dozen ships [mostly Missile and Assault Frigates] and where destroying my ships.

The new Vortex ship in my opinion is the most original design in the HW2 mod series that I have ever seen and well armed.

The Juggernaut on the other hand,although its a really cool looking ship is not worth the amount of RU to build it.

This is in no way an insult to the mod creators at all.

I love the design of the ship but unless I missed something [someone point it out if I did please],there are no weapons on this ship at all.

The Info on the ship say its armed with 2 Nuclear Bombs but I see no weapons,not even any sort of launcher to fire them or anything else.

If your wondering how I got to this level if I couldn't even build Fighters and Bombers fast enough,well for me to get any sort of fun...I cheated.

For me to stand any chance I played with the Starting Resource set at EMPIRE.

I also set the start off amount to 135,000 RU's.
Thank god for UNBIG.

First off the Juggernaut is really slow and even when it got in range of a target like a captial,all it does [after giving it an attack command] is move to the target and stand there while it gets shot up.

Other times it just trys to ram the target,thats if it makes it to the target because its so slow so the price for a nice looking unit that doesn't fire...well I just don't get it...until I upgraded it.

So the price of around 10,000 RU for each speed upgrade just meant that the unit got there faster to be destroyed.

The ship Info says it causes blast damage to near by ships [don't know if its nuclear or not] but it not worth the RU's at all.

At 20,000 an upgrade of for blast damage and another 20,000 for blast damage range the cash is better spent on several BC's.

I never bothered to upgrade to the 3rd level but just upgrading to the second cost me around 80,000 RU.

Then with the speed upgrades, it put me over 100,000 RU's so I piloted 2 juggernauts right into the middle of the VGR mothership and the its Command Fortress and detonated one of them [nice explosion sound though] and when the flash cleared.barely any damage.

It seems that when a VGR BC explodes it does more damage.

So unless you have it fully upgraded to cause a lot of damage [your looking at way over 120,000 in RU's] its really not worth it.

Kind of reminds me of my country here in the US where they spend 130 million for an F22 when you can buy several F18's to do the same thing.

Maybe its part of the HW2 Military Industrial Complex 6.5.1

But in a later match playing as the VGR, the HGN sent about 5 of them and at this point in the game,they were upgraded to level 3 so when one of them exploded it did cause a lot of damage,taking out a lot ships with included corvettes ,fighters and one of my carriers.

A several Turret upgrades,a Nuclear Bomb launcher and a Evac upgrade would make this ship a really good addition to the fleet instead of just making it a suicide ship.

You could then upgrade the Nuclear bombs with damage and damage radius upgrades.

Anyway it was way more cost effective for me to spend around 30,000 to 45,000 RU's on Viper Missiles [thats a lot of missiles].

So I sent a Scout right over the VGR's base of operations so I could see whats going on,sent in a bunch of fighters and bombers and launched every one of these missiles at every capital ship.

While the capitals where engaging the fighters...BAM,BAM,BAM, one by one they are taken out by the Vipers.

The Command Fortress is well armed and only in the last game at the last moment did I realized that it had Nuclear Launchers.

Alhtough I never got to use them ,in a match that I played today as the VGR the HGN use them against me [at least I think those slow,oversized torpedos that the station fired at me where the nukes] and they hit 2 of my captured Hiig Vortexes.

I barely saw any real damage to ships so I don't know if the nukes are really weak or the captured Vortexes had a lot of armor.

In any event no damage was done to any near by ships so I think that any Nuclear Missile should have a large blast radius.

I won this match but before the battle ended I had destroyed the MS,SY and had captured the Mining Base but had not yet destroyed the Command Fortress.

When you start attacking it and it starts taking on damage,the AI starts sending out the Patcher Units to repair it but aside from defensive weapons you can't continue to attack the enemy.

What would be ideal is that this station would be able to build Resource Collectors,Fighters,Bombers and Corvettes to continue the battle or the ability to automatically send out Fighter and Bomber squadrons over a large area of the map through a special upgrade.

The upgrade would be very expensive and you can continue to purchase further upgrades to expand the radius that these ships can guard the station and attack enemy ships and or an upgrade to the number of squadrons it sends out.

If you think its hard to take down a fully armed Command Fortress,think again.

I attacked it in one match with a few BC's and they were all destroyed.

In this morning's match I sent a Carrier at a distance way below the Fortress and then built around 20 VGR Cruise Missiles and sent them straight up into the Fortress.

It could not defend itself and less than 20 was enough to destroy the station.

It seems that the weapons [once you upgrade it] are designed to fire outward instead of out,down and up so the Complex mod team may want to look into adding top and bottom weapons systems to it.

I see the Tango mines are back but I still find no use for them because I commanded them to attack Capitals but nothing happened.

Now what would be cool is for the Complex Team to build a ship that would go out and dump these within the radius of the combating sides.

They would have a powerful blast and would detonate when they detect an enemy ship.

One thing that I notice is that from the time that the Tango and Viper first came into the Complex mods I have never seen the AI use them.

But today for the first time I did see the Tango used in this mod,only it was the AI using them against me.

But still I haven't seen the Vipers used.

The Chimera Station is another thing.

I don't know if its a bug but you can't select it and it has no menu so what does it do ?

The transferring of crew and pilots is totally cool and I'm going to play a 6 vs 6 game to see them transferring stuff all over the place.

What I would like to see is different containers for the VGR when it comes to mining because it just looks weird that not only both races use the same containers,but that they contract them from the same corporation.

Also it would be nice to see small engines on these containers or even small engine trails like on the collectors.

What is needed in the next version is a speed upgrade for the RU Mining Containers and Crew Containers.

I did notice that I upgraded the my VGR Shipyard with a Drive Subsystem and it was near an asteroid field but throughout the game never did a speed upgrade appear for the RU collector,even though I had both the Drive and Harvest Subsystems...I will have to check in another game match.

Evacuation System is a cool idea but it should not be set up to destroy the ship that has it.

A better system would be that any Capital can be upgraded with one and once a Capital takes on, let say 98% damage,it launches an Evacuation ship or maybe spawned at death and this ship would return to the MS,SY,Crew Station or another Carrier.

Right now it just blows up the ship and you don't see nothing come out of the doomed ship.

The Mining Base could use a little cosmetic job in that the mining entrance has a wall just slightly inside the opening and the containers just go through it.

It would look better if this wall was not there and the entrance was deeper into the base.

Some sort of manual is really needed for a mod that has dozens of times more feartures than the original game and I don't think that there is any RTS game in the stores past and present that I have come to know that has half the features that Complex has.

Put it this way,even with the gripes that I have with it,if Complex was a demo for a new HW2 expansion and the price was $50.00...I would be in front of the store bright and early,Hook and Hammer in hand to make sure I get my copy of it :awesome:

[Tingmore]

adamstrange: May I just say that I don't think the Mining Containers require an engine trail - why? Because I have just assumed that they have no engines at all. I always assumed due to their absurdly slow speed that upon launch, a couple of crew members kinda kick the mine container out into space and then let momentum and the vacuum of space take its natural course. It is then up to the receiving ship to position themselves in order to "catch" the mine container. It's not actually the loading/unloading of RU that causes them to stay docked so long, but more so the fact that it takes a lot of manpower to push a huge mining container over the threshold and into space.

[Nerb]

Adam.... I think if you play a few more rounds... WITHOUT CHEATING... most of your gripes will go away. First concentrate on getting your first attack craft WELL before 1 hour.

[Ahto]

adamstrange -> Hiigaran Command Fortress utilizes Drones. These are like fighters and can attack any approaching enemy unit. Basically, as far as I have seen, they do pretty good job with fighters and corvettes, more weak against frigates and almost useless against capships. It's just the way they are designed. Fortress can build also Massive Turret, a really useful platform to take out larger ships.
Why should the Fortress be able to build fighters? I see no point - it can build shipyard, shipyard can build carriers, carriers can build Mothership, if you happened to lose one and are down only to your fortress.
Tango mines are autonomous, they attack on their own, that's why you cannot order them. Vipers are which you can select and point out any capship.

[wgd]

Speaking of Command Fortresses and all,

Perhaps there could be a way to upgrade mining bases? Like giving it better weapons/armour etc. It would make sense. Perhaps even have Command Fortress-like drones for defence?

I've played a few games and all the AIs seems to do is try to destroy just one of my mining bases when they couldn't find my Mothership, very annoying. They just keep sending everything they got at it, and completely ignore my juggernaut about to hit their Mothership.

[Draakje]

Adam get a juggernaut to self destruct in the middle of the enemies forces takes out 75% of them.

[Fo®Saken]

Yes, but you cannot actually ORDER your juggernouts to explode. They have to actually hit stuff, that really annoys me.


The Chimera Station is another thing.

I don't know if its a bug but you can't select it and it has no menu so what does it do ?


It automatically has EVERY sensor and distortion thing you can think of in it.
And if you would look a little closer, you would see that there are two options in the specials menu which you can select: sensor ping and cloack and they both work perfectly.

[Carl]

Yes, but you cannot actually ORDER your juggernouts to explode. They have to actually hit stuff, that really annoys me.


Just scuttle the thing, it still goes off.

[Ahto]

Forsaken -> I am not really familiar with this, though I have thought about it, doesn't the Juggernaut have also Evacuation ability? If it does, you can easily detonate it, without waiting for the Juggernaut's destruction.

[DJ Die]

jugg does fine you were just using it wrong way get it as close as you can and detonate it destruction is assured as long as target wont jump before you scuttle the thing

vaygr are easy to beat as long as you fortify yourself meaning it takes time to destroy you and enables you to build superior hiig ships either you make succesful defensive force or you loose depends on your style of gameplay

[Alkezo]

Can you do it again and record it so i can see what your doing? I dont know what your doing wrong. When i arrived with 5 flak frigates he has missile platforms too, but the flaks took them out in seconds. Do you get your flaks to pick platforms one at a time or do you let them attack all platforms at once?

Lets got together online and play a round. The weekend is here... you pick a time, preferably my night time, otherwise my daughter keeps tugging on my arm while im trying to play.
I did record 30 seconds of it but it probably won't show what's needed. However when I upload it to youtube the connection just resets. My upload is horrible, Comcast probably set my upload to some low number. I hate that, you pay for a set connection and they say it has this much connection speed, but then your Service Provider limits you below that. This holds true for a lot of games too. That's why I play mainly on LAN. LAN > Internet. :P

I'll let you guys reply to Adamstrange... I think I'll just end up raging too much to really post anything worthwhile.

[darkhelmet]

Someone please tell me how to destroy debris other than running my mothership into it. I could use the extra RU's to build stuff.

thanks.

[Pravus]

Darkhelmet-

Capture the debris with a Capture Frigate/Marine Frigate and then once fully captured you are able to scuttle the debris so that it breaks apart into all those lovely, salvageable chunks.

[adamstrange]

Damn I didn't know you could do that.

[wgd]

Speaking of Marine Frigs,
Is there a limit to how many ships you can capture? In this game I set my marine frigs to invincible and went on a capture-fest against 5 Expert AIs.

After about 100-150 ships my Marine Frigs just started blowing them up instead of capturing them, is that supposed to happen?

I know its not really what anyone would normally do in a normal game, but I was trying to see just how big a fleet I can actually get, and yeah...just wondering if this behaviour is to be expected?

[Nerb]

That's why I play mainly on LAN. LAN > Internet. :P

Jump on a plane to Melbourne. I'll set a place for you in the lounge room.


I'll let you guys reply to Adamstrange... I think I'll just end up raging too much to really post anything worthwhile.

Just let Adam play some more. He'll work it out.

[Ahto]

wgd -> I have actually seen this thing myself as well. I have used Marine Frigates very seldom, but when I do, half of the time, the captured ship just explodes. Maybe it's a bug because in my case, there were no other captured ships yet.

[jazztyle]

Homeworld alone is a real gem, but with this modification it is the best game i have _ever_ played. Just want to say thanks!

[vila]

Match was me(hig) and computer(vagyr) vs a computer(vagyr) and computer(hig).

How do you do that? I've never been able to figure out how to get a CPU ally, my game doesn't seem to allow it. Am I missing something?


I tend to agree with BGMF (again :D) that the missiles are way too good. I once built six of them and sent all of them to destroy Vaygr Shipyard. All of them got to there and detonated though Vaygr was amassing serious attack to stop them. I think only one of them was destroyed. Missiles should be extremly vulnerable to samll craft, this way you can justify their existence in the endgame. They're no use against larger ships at all (except subsystem killers).

I don't understand. You say missiles (I'm assuming you mean Vipers) are too good and should be more vulnerable to small craft but then say they are no use against larger ships, which is their intended use.

I tend to agree with your last comment: they are not good enough. I find I can knock out a destroyer with one shot but yesterday I launched eight at a Vaygr BC but did only about 20% damage.


I've always wanted to ask this and always keep forgetting. Now I remembered again.

You know, when you use Infiltrator Frigate/Marine Frigate to capture enemy vessels, you can use it as your own. But, there are some buts. First - why doesn't capturing a capship add to officer count? I mean, I captured two shipyards and three destroyers and I still had as much of officers I had before doing this. Secondly - if I capture any build-capable ship, why cannot I use it? The shipyards were just good to recycle, nothing else. But, their subsystems opened new researches that I hadn't researched myself yet (Drive upgrades). It would really grate to use enemy vessels against itself. But then, of course, capturing should make officer-crew account larger. This might then even stop AI sending armada of Infiltrator/Marine Frigates... :D

Look at it this way:

You've captured an enemy ship, but any surviving crew will be prisoners of war, not extra crew for your own ships. The shipyard will be tooled up to for enemy ship types but your own personnel won't be trained on building them. It's not the same as taking over a combat ship and using it agaist its former owners: that's perfectly feasible. A bit like natives in the past who could use weapons they captured from invading European colonists but couldn't make any more.


In this game I set my marine frigs to invincible and went on a capture-fest against 5 Expert AIs.

Ehh??? How do you set ships to invincible?

[Sithicus]

I wanna play 6.6!!!! And take that new shuttle for a spin around the galaxy :)

[Sonic]

Is it possible to play multiplayer on this mod as i tried to vs a friend on version 6.5.1 and it wouldnt work it would go into the game and out of sync

[BigArv65]

Ah, scuttle the debris! Brilliant! I figured out a lot of the mod on my own, but hadn't figured out why I could capture debris and do nothing with it. Thanks!

BTW, even with unbalances and bugs, this is hands-down the best mod to come along in any game, period.

[adamstrange]

I'm not sure if the HW2 Engine supports building from captured capitals but then again you never know.

The Complex team maybe able to script it

[gthompsn]

@wgd : you probably reached the unitcaps limit for whatever ship you were trying to capture.

@adamstrange : the HW2 engine does NOT support building from ships from another race (part of what they were trying to do, but had to disable since Sierra didn't give them the opportunity to do development right). To be able to do this, all ships, subsystems, etc. would essintially have to be "Hiigaran" (an arbitrary choice) from the game engine perspective. Your game script could maintain a list of build capable ships from each race. When a ship from a competing race is captured, restricted build and research options would be unrestricted.

From an AI perspective, everyone would be the same race, but the presence of different ships would produce different strategies.

From a "race" perspective, the ships each race has in their starting fleet would determine which build and research capabilities were unlocked at the start of the game.

[Alkezo]

Jump on a plane to Melbourne. I'll set a place for you in the lounge room.
Sure, lemme just grab a few hundred dollars and I'll head right over, lol.

How do you do that? I've never been able to figure out how to get a CPU ally, my game doesn't seem to allow it. Am I missing something?

Ehh??? How do you set ships to invincible?
You just changed their team to the same as yours in the pre-game menu?

You can decompile the .big file, change some variables, and recompile using an application.

Is it possible to play multiplayer on this mod as i tried to vs a friend on version 6.5.1 and it wouldnt work it would go into the game and out of sync
Yes, you are able to play multiplayer with Complex. There is a known bug however that causes the game to go out of sync and crash to the desktop. Just try a few times and see if it works. I have few crashes when I play multiplayer.

I'm not sure if the HW2 Engine supports building from captured capitals but then again you never know.
There is actually a mod that allows you to build from your captured ships. If you want to look into it should be around this sub-forum as I've seen it a few times.

EDIT: Damn they have a pretty small restriction on signature sizes.

[vila]

You just changed their team to the same as yours in the pre-game menu?

You can decompile the .big file, change some variables, and recompile using an application.

Thank you. Believe it or not, I had never grasped the significance of the 'Team' column in the game set-up!

As for tinkering with the program files, I'm not competent to go anywhere near that stuff, but thanks anyway.

P.S. Thanks also to DJ and Xxbot for previous replies.

[xxobot]

I'm not sure if the HW2 Engine supports building from captured capitals but then again you never know.

It is possible, it's all to do with the addability("CanBuildships"...)
for example, the hiigaran shipyard is set up to be able to build hiigaran modules because it contains "Subsystem_Hgn"
while the vagr shipyard has "Subsystem_Vgr"
if you where to swap these around, you would have it so they can only build the other races modules... but only when controlled by that race

( simply put without saying alot of extra stuff most modders should know :lurk: , it is possible )

[silverdemon]

Might be a little off-topic, but does anyone know what file and/or line I need to look at to make the Vortex be at the front of the capital phalanx line, and not be randomly placed along with destroyers and battlecruisers? ;)
It's kind of ruining the way my really menacing strike group looks like ;)

[Biskup]

need help

I hae original H2, patched it to version 1.1 and downloaded mod etc. When im trying to run game, i have an error about conflict with disc emulation programs. The problem is that i have no such programs on my computer. I also cant run "clear" H2. Anyone have any ideas what can it be? Im using Vista ATM

[xxobot]

wrong thread, we can't have this degrade into a 'hw2 errors posting thread' :nana:

[Ahto]

@ vila -> Sorry, my thinking was faster than my typing. What I meant to say was, that the Vipers (you assumed correctly) should be vulnerable to the small craft. This way, the small craft, fighters particularly, have at least some justification since in the endgame, the fighters are useless. Especially for Vaygr because ugraded Flaks make short work with them. I've seen tens and tens of squadrons torn to shreds by five-six Flaks.

[DJ Die]

not to mention when they try to attack few battlecruisers these kill them even faster....

[wgd]

Speaking of modding,

is there a way to change crew/officer requirements for ships? Is it in the SHIP file? or some other file?

If you haven't figured it out already, I seriously want bigger fleets.

Also, as a suggestion for 6.6, perhaps there could be an offensive version of the shuttle? Where instead of an integrated repair system, we have an integrated drone system? Hmm now that I think of it, it would be a bit too like the Protoss Carrier...still, think on it.

PS: lolzz at guy who cant use HW2 with Vista ;p

[Biskup]

so i wont be bale to play H2 with complex on Vista? :/ Ill reinstall Win to XP if so :P

[xxobot]

Use a virtual machine, oh and, save the technical difficulties for another thread... WAAAAY to many posts in this thread

[Jean=A=Luc]

6.6 is up! I prolly should have let Beghins say it first. :p

Grazie molte Beghins. :) <-used an online dictionary for this. :lol:

[Alkezo]

Haha, didn't noticed beghins put up the new version. Yay for more content.

[wgd]

So what's new in 6.6? Apart from the shuttle thing.

[jazztyle]

Game freezed after about 2 hours of playing...

Here is the log:


Tue Mar 04 06:26:48 2008
Loaded Archive: 'Homeworld2.big'
UTIL -- filepath failure, path doesn't exists 'D:\Spiele\Homeworld 2\data\locale\english'
Loaded Archive: 'english.big'
Loaded Archive: 'Complex66.big'
Uing ..profiles\ for profiles folder
GAME -- Using player profile Cpt Jan
Changing from a 32 bit colour depth in winNT (5.1 build 2600), Service Pack 2
Using NVIDIA Corporation's 2.0.3 GeForce 7600 GT/PCI/SSE2 renderer (Suspected driver is nvoglnt.dll 6.14.10.9371)
Loaded Archive: 'englishSpeech.big'
Loaded Archive: 'Music.big'
SOUND -- created destination [ fdaudio ], handle [ 4 ] with [ 48 ] channels created
SOUND -- created destination [ fda streamer ], handle [ 5 ] with [ 8 ] channels created
Build name: The Dust Wars - AutoBuild3569 - Ordered by smmatte
Built by : mrbuild
Data path : D:\Spiele\Homeworld 2\data
Resetting fp control word.
CmdLine: -mod Complex66.big
GAME -- Using player profile Cpt Jan
binding for hotkeyId:9 not found
binding for hotkeyId:19 not found
Starting Level: data:LevelData\Multiplayer\complexlevels\IPERPRODUCTION2.LEVEL
Killing player 2 () at time 0.000000
Warning, screen with name SMFiltersMenu does not exist
Starting Level: data:LevelData\Multiplayer\complexlevels\BALCORA.LEVEL
LUA 'data:LevelData\Multiplayer\complexlevels\BALCORA.LEVEL' -- parameter: `for' table must be a table
stack traceback:
1: function `ringAdd' at line 8 [string ""]
2: function `DetermChunk' at line 646 [string ""]
Killing player 2 () at time 0.000000
Killing player 5 () at time 0.000000
parameter: attempt to compare nil with number
stack traceback:
1: function `transportcell' at line 77 [string ""]

[beghins]

After 2 hours of playing, in a big map, with so many players, with a pc like your one, the game MUST FREEZE, if it doesn't, it's a bug.

[xxobot]

The size and scale of complex mod, coupled with engine limitations and the fact that the hw2 engine hates high-end machines, well, take it for granted, trust me, 2 hours is good

[wgd]

the hw2 engine hates high-end machines

Wait wait, so you mean, the better your comp is, the more likely Complex is going to crash?

Haha well if thats the case you can't sell this mod thats for sure.

Good thing I have a piece of crap lol. Lag is the worst thing I got so far.

[xxobot]

No, it merely doesn't work on vista and 'bugs' on duel/quad cores
-and yes, call me a hypocrite

[beghins]

No, my PC is a very High-End Machine, and well configurated, and I never have crash, Lag, Freeze and so on; only in multiplayer match sometimes I've an Out Of Sync Error, and it's the only problem, but I think it's related to the HW2 engine.
In singleplayer the game is perfect, even with 4-5 player AI and expert. The thing you have to assume is that Complex need more hardware then the original H2, and it's due to the graphic improvements (camera, effects, models, etc...) and to the new features too.
HW2 is a 2003 game, complex is out today and it's adapted to the new hardware.

Haha well if thats the case you can't sell this mod thats for sure.
Complex is for free, but you have a lot of very good game not for free in the market, they are a lot of and well developed, and this is the reason I'm developing Complex, because I've a lot of good game to play any day, are you agree?

[xxobot]

Hey I say complex is very well configured (it works on the school computers as good as my home computer... and theres a fair amount of difference between the two), it's just the hw2 engine has limitations with the really 'high end' tech, as I mentioned before with vista and multiple cores, and as much as I would like to see a fix for this, it's not gonna happen.

[Epon]

Hello, new here!

Molte grazie to Beghins for keeping HW2 alive!

Just end my first test of Complex 6.5.1, and it's really an amazing work!

I noticed only a few problems so far: the options of the games seems to not work (Ru, rank, nb of collector, etc), the station don't fire it's nuclear bomb, the vipers tend to not target correctly a sub system and apparently when damaged interceptors/bombers are near a Capital with repair subsystem they don't "heal" themselves (perhaps the last is a feature instead of a bug?)...

Now that 6.6 is out, I go for a new test!

Tx again Beghins! (and all the team of course!)

[beghins]

I noticed only a few problems so far: the options of the games seems to not work (Ru, rank, nb of collector, etc),
Mac users always starts with default settings, are you on a mac?

Hey I say complex is very well configured (it works on the school computers as good as my home computer... and theres a fair amount of difference between the two), it's just the hw2 engine has limitations with the really 'high end' tech, as I mentioned before with vista and multiple cores, and as much as I would like to see a fix for this, it's not gonna happen.
I'm on AMD dual core and Windows XP Pro, I ignore engine bugs related to Vista and Intel, let me know what happen with those configurations and if you have fixed problems. May be a dedicated thread is useful too.

[Andreaz]

xxobot says: "No, it merely doesn't work on vista and 'bugs' on duel/quad cores"

I've got a dual core AMD 4200 and no problems at the moment.
I'm going to buy a quad core Intel this month with a Nvidia 9800x2 dualcore graphics card.

What problems should I expect?
It would be terrible not to be able to play Complex anymore. It's such fun.

[jazztyle]

No, my PC is a very High-End Machine, and well configurated, and I never have crash, Lag, Freeze and so on; only in multiplayer match sometimes I've an Out Of Sync Error, and it's the only problem, but I think it's related to the HW2 engine. In singleplayer the game is perfect, even with 4-5 player AI and expert.
Just wanted to add that my freeze actually happened in a skirmish with 3 cpu controlled fractions... I guess this is what you mean with "single player"? Also, only the game freezed, not the whole system...

My machine is a Pentium 4-D DualCore @ 3.4GHz, 1GB and GeForce 7600GT... I am normally a Linux user (and you can expect that i can handle Windows as well) and have XP only installed to play HW2, so the installation is rather clean and untouched... The only problem i had so far was the improper rendering of asteroids, but this got solved by installing the 93.71 driver...

So, maybe there is a way to disable one core or something, if its really the engine, i will look into this... But the logfile shows clearly some lua stuff going wrong (and i am also experienced in reading logfiles - linux :) )

[Admiral Nelson]

Vista is not what is causing problems. I have played every version of Complex and many other mods on Vista, and they have worked just fine. My only problem is the generic HW2 problem with new video drivers. I ignore that. I also use a dual core, 64 bit AMD processor. No problems with that that I have noticed
BTW, good to see another Linux user here, jazztyle

[Epon]

Mac users always starts with default settings, are you on a mac?

Yep.

What do you mean by always starts with def settings? -> all settings don't work on Mac?

I tested 6.6, the Vipers are now quite weak in front of interceptors (and it's a good point) so I was wondering if 900 rus was not a bit high for a so weak missile... (700?)

[beghins]

What do you mean by always starts with def settings? -> all settings don't work on Mac?
No, Mac users can only run the game with the default settings, independently from any setting they select, it's a know limitation and it's due to the HW2 Mac version that doesn't recognize the "GetGameSettingsAsNumber" instruction.
May be there's a solution, but I can't discover that, cause I'm not on a Mac.

[adamstrange]

Beghins What is the Configuration of your top PC ?

I'm playing 6.5.1 on a P4 3 Ghz single core running XP Pro,Nvidia 5200 and 2 GB Ram.

It plays just fine.

I'n not getting vista for my desktop because alot of my games and music programs won't or may not run on it and a lot of people are having the same trouble with it.

I have vista basic on a laptop and basically it just collects dust.

For me to install certain programs on it I had to install it first in XP PRO,then burn the folder of that program on a disc,transfer it to the laptop and then copy the folder into Program Files.

I wouldn't be surprised if vista turns out to be a graphically enhanced version of Windows ME:lol:

[Epon]

...May be there's a solution, but I can't discover that, cause I'm not on a Mac.

Too bad... I'd like to dig the problem; can you point me the files that could be responsible for this?

[BGMF]

About this missle "problem" again...

I just managed to finish my first game with 6.6 - great as ever from my point of view - even when the AI decided only to use heavy bombers against me - en masse - no cap ships (except from a carrier, 4 shipyards and 3 fortresses).
What I really a found a little annoying was the nuclear bomb. These bombs are - as slow as they are - almost unstopable. I didn't managed to stop a sinlge one!
4 battlessips, 2 battlecruisers and a dreadnought were protecting my MS - but almost none of there missles/cannons hit or made a significant damage to stop it!

Although, when my MS was destroyed by a single hit (this is way to powerfull beghins, considering the non existent possibility to stop it) I managed to destroy him (the hiigaran AI) finally, because a shipyard and my only fortress survived. an other shipyard were shooting some (different?) kind of missle at me, causing a way smaller explosion and damaged a battleship to the half!

Considering the discussion about missles and there power, I can only say, edit the hitchance for those heavy hiigaran missles and weaken theire power or give the Vaygr an adequate answer - an own nuclear/fusion (they have fusion missles haven't they?) device - and PLEASE give them more plattforms - or one...

I know, some will verbaly try to kill me because of the missles, but I can see no other conclusions...

edit: I forget to explain: I like those missles, but everyone is only talking about the power of cruiser/viper missles and seen not to see this problem. And: sometime I send a couble of missles to a shipyard or something like this and nothing happens, when they crash into the shipyard, also I would like to have an explosion like the nuclear devices hav - only in a way smaller region...

[beghins]

Beghins What is the Configuration of your top PC ?
My first PC used to develop Complex:
AMD X2 6400+
4GByte RAM DDR2 PC6400 Corsair
GeForce 8800 GTS 640MByte with Driver ForceWare 163.75

My Second PC used for testing and LAN match:
AMD X2 4000+
2GByte RAM DDR2 PC5300
GeForce 7800 GT 256 MByte with Driver ForceWare 163.75

Too bad... I'd like to dig the problem; can you point me the files that could be responsible for this?
data\leveldata\multiplayer\lib\oninit.lua

RRPI_PlayerName = 0
RRPI_PlayerProgress = 1
RRPI_PlayerColour = 2
RRPN_Parameters = 3

function OnInit()
Volume_AddSphere("s0", { 0, 0, 0, }, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s1", {-45000, 0, 0, }, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s2", { 45000, 0, 0, }, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s3", { 0, -45000, 0, }, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s4", { 0, 45000, 0, }, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s5", { 0, 0, -45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s6", { 0, 0, 45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s7", {-45000, 0, -45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s8", {-45000, 0, 45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s9", { 45000, 0, -45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s10",{ 45000, 0, 45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s11",{ 0, -45000,-45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s12",{ 0, -45000, 45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s13",{ 0, 45000,-45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s14",{ 0, 45000, 45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s15", {-45000,-45000, 0, }, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s16", { 45000, 45000, 0, }, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s17", {-45000, 45000, 0, }, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s18", { 45000,-45000, 0, }, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s19", {-45000,-45000,-45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s20", {-45000,-45000, 45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s21", { 45000, 45000,-45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s22", { 45000, 45000, 45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s23", {-45000, 45000,-45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s24", {-45000, 45000, 45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s25", { 45000,-45000,-45000,}, 10)
Volume_AddSphere("s26", { 45000,-45000, 45000,}, 10)
Universe_AllowPlayerOrders(0)
UI_SetScreenEnabled("ResourceMenu", 0)
UI_SetScreenEnabled("NewTaskbar", 0)
---GAME TIME
Rule_AddInterval("time", 1.81) --ok
---SOBGROUPS
Rule_Add("sobgroupscreate") --ok ma non va jug update class
Rule_AddInterval("sobgroups", 6.666) --ok
Volume_AddSphere("up0", {100, 100000, 100,}, 1000)
Volume_AddSphere("up1", {100, -100000, 100,}, 1000)
Volume_AddSphere("up2", {100, 100000, -100,}, 1000)
Volume_AddSphere("up3", {100, -100000, -100,}, 1000)
Volume_AddSphere("up4", {-100, 100000, 100,}, 1000)
Volume_AddSphere("up5", {-100, -100000, 100,}, 1000)
Volume_AddSphere("centre", {100, 10000, 100,}, 1000)
---PLAYERCOUNT
Rule_AddInterval("pcount", 20.123) --ok
---INTRO/INTERFACE
ec_intro_count = 0
Rule_AddInterval("ec_welcome", 9.5) --ok
Rule_AddInterval("interfacegivecontrol", 10) --ok
Rule_Add("interfaceintro") --ok
Rule_Add("interfacebuttons") --ok
Rule_AddInterval("selected", 0.5) --ok
complexhelp = GetGameSettingAsString("complexhelp")
--Rule_Add("fadedown") --ok
---GAME SETTINGS

winCondition = GetGameSettingAsString("wincondition");
if (winCondition == "DestroyMothership") then
Rule_AddInterval("MainRule", 14.9) --ok
Rule_AddInterval("CheckMothershipDeadRule", 15.1) --ok
elseif (winCondition == "DestroyProduction") then
Rule_AddInterval("MainRule", 14.9) --ok
Rule_AddInterval("CheckProductionDeadRule", 15.1) --ok
elseif (winCondition == "DestroyAll") then
Rule_AddInterval("MainRule", 14.9) --ok
Rule_AddInterval("CheckDeadRule", 15.1) --ok
elseif (winCondition == "Store100000RUs") then
ATI_LoadTemplates("data:LevelData\\Multiplayer\\ResourceRace\\ATI.lua")
Rule_AddInterval("MainRule", 14.9) --ok
Rule_AddInterval("CheckStore100000RUsDeadRule", 15.1) --ok
elseif (winCondition == "Scenario") then
--abbiamo scenario
else
Rule_AddInterval("MainRule", 14.9) --ok
Rule_AddInterval("CheckProductionDeadRule", 15.1) --ok
end

honourstart = GetGameSettingAsNumber("honourstart")
autosave = GetGameSettingAsNumber("autosave")
rankremuneration = GetGameSettingAsNumber("rankremuneration")
unithealth = GetGameSettingAsNumber("unithealth")
buildspeed = GetGameSettingAsNumber("buildspeed")
resource = GetGameSettingAsNumber("resource")
recruiting = GetGameSettingAsNumber("recruiting")
secondaryobjectives = GetGameSettingAsNumber("secondaryobjectives")
honoursensitivity = GetGameSettingAsNumber("honoursensitivity")
researchsensitivity = GetGameSettingAsNumber("researchsensitivity")
hyperspace = GetGameSettingAsNumber("hyperspace")
startwith = GetGameSettingAsNumber("startwith")

--Mac compatibility
--secondaryobjectives
if secondaryobjectives == 1 then
secondaryobjectives = -1
elseif secondaryobjectives == 2 then
rurace = 1
elseif secondaryobjectives == 3 then
rankrace = 1
elseif secondaryobjectives == 4 then
domainrace = 1
elseif secondaryobjectives == 5 then
rurace = 1
rankrace = 1
domainrace = 1
else
rurace = 1
rankrace = 1
domainrace = 1
end
--honour
if honourstart == 1 then
for i = 1,6,1 do
honourstartList[i] = 0
end
elseif honourstart == 2 then
for i = 1,6,1 do
honourstartList[i] = 10
end
elseif honourstart == 3 then
for i = 1,6,1 do
honourstartList[i] = 20
end
elseif honourstart == 4 then
for i = 1,6,1 do
honourstartList[i] = 30
end
if rankrace == 1 then
rankrace = 3
end
elseif honourstart == 5 then
for i = 1,6,1 do
honourstartList[i] = 75
end
if rankrace == 1 then
rankrace = 5
end
elseif honourstart == 6 then
for i = 1,6,1 do
honourstartList[i] = 125
end
if rankrace == 1 then
rankrace = 7
end
elseif honourstart == 7 then
for i = 1,6,1 do
honourstartList[i] = 185
end
if rankrace == 1 then
rankrace = 9
end
elseif honourstart == 8 then
for i = 1,6,1 do
honourstartList[i] = 265
end
if rankrace == 1 then
rankrace = 11
end
elseif honourstart == 9 then
for i = 1,6,1 do
honourstartList[i] = 365
end
rankrace = 0
else
for i = 1,6,1 do
honourstartList[i] = 10
end
end
--honoursensivity
if honoursensitivity == 1 then
honoursensitivity = 0.9
elseif honoursensitivity == 2 then
honoursensitivity = 1
elseif honoursensitivity == 3 then
honoursensitivity = 1.1
else
honoursensitivity = 1
end
--researchsensitivity
if researchsensitivity == 1 then
researchsensitivity = 1.5
elseif researchsensitivity == 2 then
researchsensitivity = 1.1
elseif researchsensitivity == 3 then
researchsensitivity = 0.9
else
researchsensitivity = 1.1
end
--buildspeed
if buildspeed == 1 then
buildspeed = 0
Rule_AddInterval("ai", 54.2727)
elseif buildspeed == 2 then
buildspeed = 0.5
Rule_AddInterval("ai", 48.2727)
elseif buildspeed == 3 then
buildspeed = 1
Rule_AddInterval("ai", 43.2727)
else
buildspeed = 0.5
Rule_AddInterval("ai", 48.2727)
end
--resource
if resource == 1 then
resource = 0
elseif resource == 2 then
resource = 0.5
elseif resource == 3 then
resource = 1
else
resource = 0.5
end
if resource == 0 then
miningfactor = 0.8
fusionfactor = 5.635
elseif resource == 0.5 then
miningfactor = 0.95
fusionfactor = 5.07
else
miningfactor = 1.15
fusionfactor = 4.36
end
--recruiting
if recruiting == 1 then
recruiting = 0
elseif recruiting == 2 then
recruiting = 1
elseif recruiting == 3 then
recruiting = 2
else
recruiting = 1
end
--hyperspace
if hyperspace == 1 then
hyperspace = 0
elseif hyperspace == 2 then
hyperspace = 0.5
elseif hyperspace == 3 then
hyperspace = 1
else
hyperspace = 0.5
end
--rankremuneration
if rankremuneration == 1 then
rankremuneration = 0
elseif rankremuneration == 2 then
rankremuneration = 1
elseif rankremuneration == 3 then
rankremuneration = 1.5
elseif rankremuneration == 4 then
rankremuneration = 2
else
rankremuneration = 1.5
end
--unithealth
if unithealth == 1 then
unithealth = 0
elseif unithealth == 2 then
unithealth = 0.5
elseif unithealth == 3 then
unithealth = 1
else
unithealth = 0.5
end
--starting collectors
if startwith == 1 then
SetStartFleetSuffix("mothership")
elseif startwith == 2 then
SetStartFleetSuffix("small")
elseif startwith == 3 then
SetStartFleetSuffix("")
elseif startwith == 4 then
SetStartFleetSuffix("large")
elseif startwith == 5 then
SetStartFleetSuffix("extra")
elseif startwith == 6 then
SetStartFleetSuffix("fleet")
Rule_AddInterval("buildonstartfleet", 15) --ok
elseif startwith == 7 then
SetStartFleetSuffix("empire")
Rule_AddInterval("buildonstartempire", 15) --ok
else
end

Rule_AddInterval("matchinit", 60) --ok

---MUSIC
Rule_AddInterval("MusicInit", 44) --ok
---MEGALITH
Rule_AddInterval("megalithinitialize", 7.7)
---FUSION
Rule_AddInterval("fusion", fusionfactor) --ok
---POPULATION
Rule_AddInterval("populationinit", 3.1) --ok
--Rule_AddInterval("population", 7.654321) lanciata da interface
---EXPLOSION DAMAGE
Rule_AddInterval("MSexplosiondamage", 0.53)
Rule_AddInterval("SYexplosiondamage", 0.56)
Rule_AddInterval("CFexplosiondamage", 0.68)
Rule_AddInterval("Cexplosiondamage", 0.59)
Rule_AddInterval("RSexplosiondamage", 0.62)
Rule_AddInterval("CSexplosiondamage", 0.65)
Rule_AddInterval("HSexplosiondamage", 0.67)
Rule_AddInterval("BCexplosiondamage", 0.47)
Rule_AddInterval("Jexplosiondamage", 0.44)
--Rule_AddInterval("JUpdateDetonation", 13.13)
--Rule_AddInterval("Dexplosiondamage", 0.5)
Rule_AddInterval("MBexplosiondamage", 0.71)
---RESEARCH
Rule_AddInterval("research", 7.474) --ok
---MAINTENANCE
Rule_AddInterval("maintenance", 14.981475) --ok
---SCORE
Rule_AddInterval("score", 44.4342) --ok
---HEAVY ION CANNON
Rule_AddInterval("heavyioncannoninit", 0.5) --ok
---TANGO MINE
Rule_AddInterval("tangomine", 5.9876) --ok
---VIPER MISSILE
Rule_AddInterval("vipermissile", 0.66) --ok
---COMPUTER SPY
Rule_AddInterval("computerspy", 11.1) --ok
---AI
Rule_AddInterval("LOD", 60.33) --ok
Rule_AddInterval("aijuggernaught", 5.6789)
---CINEMATIC
Rule_AddInterval("CinematicController", 0.33) --ok
--Rule_AddInterval("cinematicfirstunits", 7.7) --no
---TRADE
Rule_AddInterval("trade", 14.60945) --?
---TRANSPORT CELL
Rule_AddInterval("transportcell", 7.55) --ok
---GENERIC
Rule_AddInterval("randomfake", 7.575) --ok
Rule_AddInterval("weaponsets", 7.51) --ok
---REPAIRING
Rule_AddInterval("repairing", 6.1212)
Rule_AddInterval("droning", 6.1313)
Rule_AddInterval("autorepair", 22.222)
--Rule_AddInterval("repairingdock", 4.44) --no
---WEIGHT
Rule_AddInterval("weight", 47.3938)
---EXPERIENCE
Rule_AddInterval("experience", 33.333)
---EVENTI
Rule_AddInterval("eventi", 5.16) --ok
---KEEP POSITION
Rule_AddInterval("keeppositiononpassive", 0.455) --ok
---OBJECTIVE
--Rule_AddInterval("objective", 11.11) lanciata da interface
---RU Update
Rule_AddInterval("RUUpdate", 1) --ok
Rule_AddInterval("RUUpdate1", 0.25) --ok

--Rule_AddInterval("Animate_MothershipDoorOpen", 20)
--Rule_AddInterval("Animate_MothershipDoorClose", 40)
--Rule_AddInterval("test", 240)

---TEST---------------------------------------------

end

function Animate_MothershipDoorOpen()
SobGroup_AllowPassiveActionsAlways("hgn_mothership0", 1)
SobGroup_SetMadState("hgn_mothership0", "NIS00")
Sound_SpeechSubtitlePath("speech:missions/m_01/")
Rule_Remove("Animate_MothershipDoorOpen")
end

function Animate_MothershipDoorClose()
SobGroup_SetMadState("hgn_mothership0", "NIS01")
Rule_Remove("Animate_MothershipDoorClose")
end

function test()
--FX_StartEvent("hgn_resourcecontroller0", "Fusion4")
SobGroup_Create("hgn_scaver0")
SobGroup_FillShipsByType("hgn_scaver0", "Player_Ships0", "hgn_scaver")
--SobGroup_SetHealth("hgn_scaver0", 0.5)
SobGroup_SwitchOwner( "hgn_scaver0", 1)

--SobGroup_AvoidanceIgnore("hgn_resourcecollector0", "hgn_mothership0")
--SobGroup_ForceStayDockedIfDocking("hgn_researchstation0")
--if SobGroup_IsDockedSobGroup("hgn_researchstation0", "hgn_mothership0") == 1 then
--SobGroup_MakeSelectable("hgn_researchstation0", 0)
--SobGroup_AbilityActivate("hgn_researchstation0", AB_Builder, 1)
--SobGroup_AbilityActivate("hgn_researchstation0", AB_Hyperspace, 1)
--else
--SobGroup_MakeSelectable("hgn_researchstation0", 1)
--end
end
Example:
honoursensitivity = GetGameSettingAsNumber("honoursensitivity")
if honoursensitivity == 1 then
honoursensitivity = 0.9
elseif honoursensitivity == 2 then
honoursensitivity = 1
elseif honoursensitivity == 3 then
honoursensitivity = 1.1
else
honoursensitivity = 1
end

else is for the Mac (as you see is default 1)

What I really a found a little annoying was the nuclear bomb. These bombs are - as slow as they are - almost unstopable. I didn't managed to stop a sinlge one!
4 battlessips, 2 battlecruisers and a dreadnought were protecting my MS - but almost none of there missles/cannons hit or made a significant damage to stop it!
These are new features, may be they have to be tuned, let me know what do you think about them... are you speaking about nuclear launchers on the Command Fortress or about the Heavy Nuclear Bomb?

[Epon]

After BGMF post, I must ask... the nuclear bombs not firing is also a known Mac problem?


data\leveldata\multiplayer\lib\oninit.lua

Tx.

[BGMF]

to "shoot" or better send a missle on its way, simply build it, select it and attack the target - it is single shot only and will directly fly to the target - excepting if the target disappears (when cloaked, out of sensor range or destroed).
Now movements are possible, just attack (and you have to select an capital ship, when I remember right)

[Epon]

BGMF, tx but seems it's what I do; I build a nuclear slot on the station (3 available), then I select the bomb in the features of the Station (bottom left corner of the UI), the cursor become a red and yellow target, I click on whatever Capital, the target seems to be taken in account (red line from the station to the target), then... nothing... I can wait 10 minutes, nothing... Have I miss something?

Beghins, the GetGameSettingAsString function don't work on Mac, right?

Where are define those functions? (GetGameSettingAsString and GetGameSettingAsNumber)

[beghins]

Where are define those functions? (GetGameSettingAsString and GetGameSettingAsNumber)
Into the H2 game engine, I think.

[Epon]

Question; digging to understand the Mac problem, I went over lots of links about modding to a "Karos Graveyard" site which was supposed to have lots of info about functions of the HW2 engine; unfortunately seems this site is down. Anyone knows the webmaster of this site or another good source of info?

[Pierre70]

Err...

Thanks for the rapid update Beghins, but why have you given three heavy nuclear bombs to the Higarans as a free gift at the start of skirmishes? The Vaygr have no chance whatsoever!

[Alkezo]

This? (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Quadrant/3864/homeworld.htm)

[Epon]

@ Alkezo: Tx!

[beghins]

Thanks for the rapid update Beghins, but why have you given three heavy nuclear bombs to the Higarans as a free gift at the start of skirmishes? The Vaygr have no chance whatsoever!
thanks Pierre70, that'a a criptical error, download is stopped and 6.6.1 is ready, with 3 nukes no one has chances, sorry.
About 1000 people just have the 6.6, in less then one day, and that's a real bugged version, share this.

I think this is the last version of the 6 Series... I hope...
ModDB is an important advertising for Complex, so a good vote on ModDB is very appreciated too, I would like to see 10 here! And this is the right way to see Complex 7!
http://www.moddb.com/mods/7857/homeworld-2-complex
Thanks very much, Beghins.

[Epon]

@ Beghins: Where is define the starting Rus? (at least this setting work on Mac and I wanted to look at the function used, but I cannot find it...)

[adamstrange]

What 3 Nuclear Bombs ?

I started with the game set to EMPIRE and I have no bombs.

What ship has them ?

[silverdemon]

@ Beghins: Where is define the starting Rus? (at least this setting work on Mac and I wanted to look at the function used, but I cannot find it...)

That's the thing -- the built-in settings work fine. They are accessed in the HW2 engine itself.
Any other "extra" setting needs to be gotten with GetGameSetting functions, which don't work. The only possible solution I see is for Beghins to create a custom modal dialog with those settings at the map's start. But, that's way too much trouble and, IMHO, it's not a big deal to decompress the Complex.big file and change the variables manually. ;-)

A link to Karos Graveyard -http://hw2wiki.net/wiki.hw2.info/KarosGraveyard.html

[vila]

Err...

Thanks for the rapid update Beghins, but why have you given three heavy nuclear bombs to the Higarans as a free gift at the start of skirmishes? The Vaygr have no chance whatsoever!

Heavy nuclear bombs? Where?

[adamstrange]

I have 6.6 and there are no Nuclear Bombs for the HGN at the start of a skirmish.

[beghins]

Pierre70 is right, in 6.6 if you start with 3 collectors you have 3 nukes instead of 3 collectors, I've set this for testing and accidentally I forgotten it in the release, download the 6.6.1

[Pierre70]

Thanks for the quick reply and work, Beghins!

[Epon]

...The only possible solution I see is for Beghins to create a custom modal dialog with those settings at the map's start. But, that's way too much trouble and, IMHO, it's not a big deal to decompress the Complex.big file and change the variables manually. ;-

Yep, but it's indeed it's not a really elegant solution... This function problem is really weird... I wonder if the function itself could not be rewritten to have full control on it... Beghins, not doable?

[beghins]

Yep, but it's indeed it's not a really elegant solution... This function problem is really weird... I wonder if the function itself could not be rewritten to have full control on it... Beghins, not doable?
May be, but I can't do that because I'm on Windows and I can't test it on Mac; Mac compatibility has been inserted by mail with a Mac Complex user (see posts of 1 month ago and if you want try to contact that user, I don't remember the name), for me it's just a big success that Complex works on Mac with the Normal settings, the 6.0 doesn't work at all on Mac.

I think this is the last version of the 6 Series... I hope...
ModDB is an important advertising for Complex, so a good vote on ModDB is very appreciated too, I would like to see 10 here (if you think Complex doesn't match 10, please, don't vote)! And this is the right way to see Complex 7!
http://www.moddb.com/mods/7857/homeworld-2-complex

[Ahto]

I've decompiled the .big file of 6.6.1 and there are some oddities - for example, Hiigaran research shows that Pulsar Corvette 3rd tier health upgrade is on display 2nd tier, meaning, you research 3rd tier upgrade and it displays 2nd tier. Just a small thing, I guess, it doesn't really change anything.

[Mr.Ziggy]

Noticed a crash bug when attempting to use a Vaygr hyperspace gate to jump a large number of ships. Homeworld stops responding when the ships come out of the second gate and task manager must be used to end the program. Have noticed no such crash bugs on unmodded HW2. Have had no luck narrowing down the cause of this crash to being caused by particular ships but it does not seem to happen until a game is well underway. Haven't tested complex in multiplayer yet, only in skirmish.

I have seen this bug for all previous versions of complex back to the 5 series. I am running complex on xp with dual core. Would appreciate any help on fixing this bug or at least narrowing down the cause, as it is basically preventing me from using the Vaygr. Apart from this bug, Complex is an excellent mod and well done to all who worked on it.

[Carl]

Random question guys. How do you run HW2 in Windowed mode as I get occasional crashes with Complex, and for some reason I can't ALT-TAB out or access the task manger or anything. It's not that it doesn’t bring the task manger up, but that the graphics held within the HW2 window stay up and if I try to click on the task manager it just interprets it as a click inside the HW2 window.

Hope that makes sense.

[t'jerk]

Ok so I'm pulling my hair out on this one.
can someone please enlighten me as to how to install the mod on a Mac?
any direction I've found so far is centered on installations on a PC.
can anyone help.....

[vila]

Pierre70 is right, in 6.6 if you start with 3 collectors you have 3 nukes instead of 3 collectors, I've set this for testing and accidentally I forgotten it in the release, download the 6.6.1

First, many thanks for this superb mod - great stuff!

I'm a newcomer to Complex (and HW2 itself, in fact) - only played about fifteen skirmishes and still getting to grips with all the new features. I thought I'd explored everything, but where in the game are the heavy nuclear bombs? (Other than at the start of version 6.6, of course!)

[beghins]

Ok so I'm pulling my hair out on this one.
can someone please enlighten me as to how to install the mod on a Mac?
any direction I've found so far is centered on installations on a PC.
can anyone help.....
If you find it, tell me where it is, and I will insert it in the Complex web site, thanks

I'm a newcomer to Complex (and HW2 itself, in fact) - only played about fifteen skirmishes and still getting to grips with all the new features. I thought I'd explored everything, but where in the game are the heavy nuclear bombs? (Other than at the start of version 6.6, of course!)
Hiigaran Command Fortress

[Epon]

Ok so I'm pulling my hair out on this one.
can someone please enlighten me as to how to install the mod on a Mac?
any direction I've found so far is centered on installations on a PC.
can anyone help.....

You need to download the .big file, put in in your data folder, then run the app via Terminal with something like:

full path/Homeworld\ 2.app/Contents/MacOS/Homeworld\ 2 -mod Complex651.big

(where full path is the path to your app and the last argument the name of the mod you want to use -> here Complex651.big)

[ActionDragon]

Do the ship collision damages add anything good to the mod? I don't like it that my ships collide with each other and are damaged once I need them.

I tried 6.6 yesterday online with a friend and the AI seemed to work better and be much harder at lower difficulty levels, which is a good thing. The game also worked good, but then crashed to desktop for me and my friend once I hyperspaced my Hiig Mothership.

Could it be Hyperspacing and ship collisions that still cause crashes?

Excellent work so far Beghins! :)

[Ahto]

:D Had a very, very nice battle this evening. Greatly done.
A few things - the Hiigaran Shuttle is way too fast, 600 for a capship... It should be slower, I think.
I used Nuclear bombs. Well, after all ugrades (a lot of RUs), the missile wiped out a shipyard, nearby three destroyers and a Dreadnaught. It's way too powerful, I think. And, when I sent the bomb to another Vaygr Shipyard, a Battlecruiser was on its path and made it to detonate. Is this meant to be or is it a bug? It would be much more nicer to be able to attack the ship one wants. Fortunately there were no corvettes or frigates on the way.

[adamstrange]

I haven't seen any ship collisions yet but if this mod has them,please don't take them out.

Ship collisions add extra action to the game play.

Nuclear missiles are good and should remain very powerful.

What the mod can use is Long Range Nuclear Missile options on BC's and Nuclear Missile Defense Systems upgrade for both sides.

An all out nuclear exchange would be cool to have in Complex.

[Pravus]

The link in Carl's post below this post does indeed take you to a mod_runner but it has a suffix of .app.exe?

I had a look at it and removed the .exe extension and my Mac does not recognise. The Mac does not use .exe as it is a Windows extension. In short, it doesn't work on my Mac.

To avoid any self extracting files, I have uploaded the tiny Modrunner Mac App to the link below (under 250k), it is tried and tested on my Mac and has been working for at least a year.

http://web.mac.com/rmalbon/iWeb/RMAlbon/Mod%20Runner.html


Download. Drag to Apps.
Open Modrunner. Browse to the .big Mod file and add it.
Run the file from the list.

I will leave this app on my site for a few days and then will remove it as it is not a place to host this sort of file.

[Carl]

I've downloaded it and put it into a self extracting RaR file, then re-uploaded it to filefront for everyone.

Here's the link:

http://files.filefront.com/Mod+Runnerappexe/;9762230;/fileinfo.html

[Alkezo]

What the mod can use is Long Range Nuclear Missile options on BC's and Nuclear Missile Defense Systems upgrade for both sides.

An all out nuclear exchange would be cool to have in Complex.
No. It would just turn Complex into another PDS mod, and thats something I don't want to see. It would take out the tactical aspect of Complex and just be another fireworks show that PDS is. That's the last thing Complex needs.

Note: If anyone can figure out the other side of the parody of my signature, they receive a free :cube: . Since this site limits my signature to such a small size, right click and View Image. I've already made the image much smaller than the original size (1000x600~).

[adamstrange]

Not if you limit the really big nukes to BC's and give them a 5 minute launch time.

[xxobot]

Or perhaps have it as a starting option/gametype (cold war)? :banana:

[Epon]

Question: with standard settings, do I dream or the CPU have an advantage? (I test doing exactly what he do (same number of ships and subsystems) but no way he is always far but very far in front of me with much more Rus...)

[rykers]

Sorry if that msg is not posted at the right place... I'm new to the mod, could you please tell me where I can find comprehensive info about the game parameters, in particular:

- what are the available military ranks
- detailed rules for rank upgrade
- is it possible to increase officers without having to upgrade rank?
- clear explanation about Unit Efficiency: why does it go below "Full", which criteria to acquire Efficiency when negative?
- etc.

Thx in advance!

[Alkezo]

- what are the available military ranks
- detailed rules for rank upgrade
- is it possible to increase officers without having to upgrade rank?
- clear explanation about Unit Efficiency: why does it go below "Full", which criteria to acquire Efficiency when negative?
Many questions can be answered by turning on the Complex Tutorial in the menu.

Your rank is determined by how many ships you have, built, and lost along with Research Points and RU.

You have to have at least 75 Rank to have access to officer module/research.

I'm not too sure on the unit efficiency, but I'm pretty sure it just adjusts some of the numbers slightly behind the scenes. I just ignore it.

[adamstrange]

Beghins do you think that for the next version,you and your ModTeam can figure out how to code the game so that when subsystems are destroyed they have some sort of death animation attached to them ?

It looks really weird that your destroy like the VGR capitalship facility and it just vanishes.

[Epon]

Question: with standard settings, do I dream or the CPU have an advantage? (I test doing exactly what he do (same number of ships and subsystems) but no way he is always far but very far in front of me with much more Rus...)
:bump:

[Alkezo]

Question: with standard settings, do I dream or the CPU have an advantage? (I test doing exactly what he do (same number of ships and subsystems) but no way he is always far but very far in front of me with much more Rus...)
The AI possibly has an advantage as they always seem to be ahead. I don't really mind that as almost every RTS has had the AI have something the players do not (at least the older ones). The only thing I've noticed is them accumulating honor much faster than I do. I don't really think they have as much of an RU advantage as a Honor advantage, since they do build a lot of collectors.

[Nerb]

The AI has a constant stream on income in addition to what they collect. If you destroy everything except his MS and watch his RU's in the remote moniter, you will see it continues to increase.


I can't ALT-TAB out or access the task manger or anything

I just hit the windows key on the keyboard and it pops me out.

[vila]

The AI possibly has an advantage . . .

The AI has a massive advantage. Yesterday I could hardly believe my eyes as my Vaygr AI opponent's MS and SY produced 5 destroyers and 3 battleships in less time than it took me to build 1 destroyer. Even with equal ship numbers the Vaygr AI is miles ahead - e.g. destroyer firepower almost 60% greater than Hiigaran at start up.

[Fasta]

Same here. I found it a chalange. In my last fight i use mines lots of them and 15 resource colectors feeding the production ;)

[Carl]

I just hit the windows key on the keyboard and it pops me out.

Even that dosen't work.

I can even hit the power switch to put it into shutdown mode and the game is so thourghly locked up it dosen't shut down.

I have to hit the rest switch to clear it.

[Nerb]

Note: If anyone can figure out the other side of the parody of my signature, they receive a free Are you male or female? Im not sure if i want to try your challenge.


Yesterday I could hardly believe my eyes as my Vaygr AI opponent's MS and SY produced 5 destroyers and 3 battleships in less time than it took me to build 1 destroyer
You need to work on your strategy. Cut down your opponents RU supply. You should be able to easily wipe out a single AI player LONG before he can produce anything more than a destroyer.
Please dont complain about the AI difficulty unless your saying its too easy, especially when all you want to do is build an "empire". Thats not what the game is about.

[vila]

Cut down your opponents RU supply.

I'd already stopped him gaining a Mining Base. Besides, as you said above:


The AI has a constant stream on income in addition to what they collect. If you destroy everything except his MS and watch his RU's in the remote moniter, you will see it continues to increase.


You should be able to easily wipe out a single AI player LONG before he can produce anything more than a destroyer.

If this is true, what is the point of the existence of anything higher in the game?


Thats not what the game is about.

What, in your opinion, is the game about? Your 'Flak Rush' principle (which I am unable to reproduce - the first few Flaks are wiped out long before they can inflict any kind of damage on the enemy MS and you can't queue production 20 at a time as you suggest, the game won't allow it) seems to reduce the game to an arcade shoot-up. I thought it was supposed to be more intellectual than that.

[Nerb]

If this is true, what is the point of the existence of anything higher in the game?
The existence of things higher than destroyers is still relevant when playing your mates. Its just that the AI cant think. Thats why it gets more RU's to play with.

What, in your opinion, is the game about?
The game is about beating the opposition, not pussy footing around. We're not playing sim city.

My flak rush works, ive video'ed it and i can repeat it. (admittedly i havnt tried it with 6.6.1 yet). I dont use it every time. I enjoy trying different strategies. However, cutting down the enemys RU collectors with flaks is a sure fire way to win the game.

You guys should post some clips up so i can see what your doing. Maybe you send your flaks then dont watch whats happening? You need to manouver them and tell them what to shoot at. Be proactive.

[Tingmore]

I thought the debate about Flak Frigates had come and gone. I didn't want to stoke a dying fire, but I have 60GB of uncompressed video of Flak rushing the Expert Vaygr AI. I agree with Nerb in that the AI gets mystery RUs from nowhere and that the rate at which they get it varies with difficulty.

In the video vs. the Expert AI player I had destroyed all its resource collectors and it was churning out heavy missile platforms like no other business. Against the Easy AI player it was churning out resource collectors, but at a much slower pace.

Regardless, the Flak Rush principle is really very easy. When you first start, with your 3000RU, build a frigate facility then 2 flak frigates. Send them out to the enemy base and focus on destroying its resource collecting abilities. Then queue 15 more flak frigates and have them meet you at the battle. You can usually only get about 15-17 flaks because of crew restrictions.

Vila, you are absolutely right when you say that the Flak Rush reduces the game to an arcade shoot-out. The game IS meant to be more intellectual than that. That being said, the game is also about destroying the enemy as quickly and efficiently as possible. I believe this is exactly the reason why Nerb and I and others were saying that Flaks needed to be toned down - because it was too easy to win as a Hiigaran vs. a Vaygr player.

When Nerb said: "You should be able to easily wipe out a single AI player LONG before he can produce anything more than a destroyer," what I believe he is trying to say is that the way it is set up in a Hiig v. Vaygr game you should be able to wipe them out (with just flaks!). And as it stands, this is not a good thing!

BTW: I haven't been able to play 6.6+ yet, so I'm not sure what changes have been made. Busy busy at work, etc. That being said, I'm mainly busy checking these forums to see if people have posted.

[adamstrange]

After playing the mod several times without any cheating I found that it was not hard at all to beat the AI at 1vs1 on expert mode.

Playing as the HGN the first thing that I do is to build lots of collectors and send them collecting close by.

At least 3 on the big asteroids and 2 on the smaller ones.

Next I build the Research Station and the Crew Station and then the platform module followed by the scavengers.

I then build at least 12 to 20 gunplatforms.

I then start to build mostly fighter and bomber squadrons backed up by just the gunship and pulsar corvettes.

At the same time I build the Harvest module and start to upgrade the collectors.

As the enemy fighters,bombers,corvettes and a few frigates start to come to me I send all of my ship really high up above my mothership so that the enemy ships will ignore them and attack my mothership and platforms.

Prior to this I send a scout over the enemy MS so I can see whats going on and I then start to build viper missiles...lots of viper missiles.

Once the enemy ships attack I bring down my ships upon them and between the ships and platforms I cut the VGR attacking ships to shreds.

I then start launching vipers at any carriers [4 or 5 vipers can easily destroy any carrier] and then against the MS itself.

At the same time my ships are taking out their resources.

If you gather enough resources to build the Manufacturing,Platform and Firecontrol Module and then around 50 to 60 vipers..the game is yours because nothing in the game can stop a large viper attack...well unless the enemy cloaks their ships which of course it never does.

[vila]

OK - just tried flak rush again and . . well, yes, of course, I was wiped out as usual.

It is quite simply impossible to build flaks fast enough to keep pace with the rate at which they are lost to the defenders. You say just attack the AI's resourcers, as if there are no other considerations. What about the fighters and gun/missile platforms that continue to pour out of the Vaygr MS? The latter alone will be produced faster than they can be knocked out and will eventually destroy the flaks. Then, of course, the Vaygr AI produces destroyers - and they emerge at the rate of one every twenty seconds or so. I wish the game allowed me to build them that fast! And while all this is happening the AI continues to build resourcers . . .

When the first 15 flaks have gone, that's it - you can't build any more because you have no more crew, even though you probably have plenty of RUs, and you can't build anything else for the same reason.

[vila]

After playing the mod several times without any cheating I found that it was not hard at all to beat the AI at 1vs1 on expert mode.

Playing as the HGN the first thing that I do is to build lots of collectors and send them collecting close by.

At least 3 on the big asteroids and 2 on the smaller ones.

Next I build the Research Station and the Crew Station and then the platform module followed by the scavengers.

I then build at least 12 to 20 gunplatforms.

I then start to build mostly fighter and bomber squadrons backed up by just the gunship and pulsar corvettes.

At the same time I build the Harvest module and start to upgrade the collectors.

As the enemy fighters,bombers,corvettes and a few frigates start to come to me I send all of my ship really high up above my mothership so that the enemy ships will ignore them and attack my mothership and platforms.

Prior to this I send a scout over the enemy MS so I can see whats going on and I then start to build viper missiles...lots of viper missiles.

Once the enemy ships attack I bring down my ships upon them and between the ships and platforms I cut the VGR attacking ships to shreds.

I then start launching vipers at any carriers [4 or 5 vipers can easily destroy any carrier] and then against the MS itself.

At the same time my ships are taking out their resources.

If you gather enough resources to build the Manufacturing,Platform and Firecontrol Module and then around 50 to 60 vipers..the game is yours because nothing in the game can stop a large viper attack...well unless the enemy cloaks their ships which of course it never does.
Just tried this too and I'm driven to the conclusion that one of two things must be true: either all of the above is total bullsh*t or the mod plays differently on different PCs.

"As the enemy fighters,bombers,corvettes and a few frigates start to come to me I send all of my ship really high up above my mothership so that the enemy ships will ignore them and attack my mothership and platforms. . . Once the enemy ships attack I bring down my ships upon them and between the ships and platforms I cut the VGR attacking ships to shreds." I got my first attack wave before I could build my Crew Station, let alone any combat ships.

By the time I was able to build fighters (following the above build sequence) I could build only 8 sqdns - nowhere near enough to deal with the hordes of attackers. By this time was suffering my FOURTH attack wave which eventually included NINE destroyers which arrived in instalments of 2, 3 and 4 in the wake of the fighters/bombers/corvettes (no frigates of any sort took part in these attacks). This attack wiped out what was left of my gun platforms and resourcing operation.

When I ran out of crew I started building Vipers but only had RUs for 10. It took 5 to knock out the first destroyer (all broadside hits) but the second salvo of 5 failed to take down a second destroyer. (When I first used them in v6.5.1, I knocked out a destroyer with one missile - doesn't seem to work like that any more.) You make no mention of destroyers - how many did you encounter?

"I then start launching vipers at any carriers [4 or 5 vipers can easily destroy any carrier] and then against the MS itself." I've been experimenting with Vipers and in my game it takes 10, not 5, to take out a carrier.

If you can really play the mod the way you say I might have to reluctantly concede that for some reason it isn't playable (or at least not winable - and I do like to win occasionally) on my PC, and from reading some previous posts it would seem that others could be in the same position.

It would be very sad if I have to give up, because I think that what Beghins has done here is a terrific effort at breathing life into a game that was a slight disappointment after the original HW, despite greatly improved imagery and animations.

Have I missed anything? What parameters do you use on the game set-up page? How does changing these values affect gameplay?

[Ahto]

I think I support Vila in the Flak frigate issue. I have tried it out myself but no avail. Flaks are pretty easy mark for Missile Platforms, two-three hits and a Flak is gone. And Flaks are not designed to take out capital ships, so the Mothership or Flagship can continue easily, along with a Shipyard if they have one, to produce platforms and fighters/corvettes. And it wasn't like I tended to my own things while the Flaks were hammering away at the enemy, I was there, trying to take out vital points and still nothing. I truly think that it all depends on the AI, how it behaves. One day, it's docile, another day, I cannot cope with its agressiveness. That's the beauty of it, I guess.
Nope, you don't need to build an "empire" but it would be a waste of game and your time not to use what the game offers. Though I have a very nice and fast connection, I still don't play with anyone else, only against the AI. And I like to see both sides' capital ships in action. There's research to be done etc, different modules and subsystems. What's the point to have a Flak rush? It'd take away all the fun! And, if one's still keen to use it, it's possible to have three expert AI's, no Flak rush then! I don't play 1 vs 1, it's not interesting. I play usually 2 vs 2, where my ally is standard and enemies are all expert. That's fun and then you have no other choice but to start thinking of stronger and bigger ships.
I remember Alkezo saying that in HW2, and in Complex as well, every ship has its own duty, its own enemies and foes. So, that's why it's interesting to build a very versatile army and then go and wage a little war.

[Epon]

...If you gather enough resources to build the Manufacturing,Platform and Firecontrol Module and then around 50 to 60 vipers..the game is yours because nothing in the game can stop a large viper attack...well unless the enemy cloaks their ships which of course it never does.

Well perhaps it was a coincidence but yesterday during a Hig vs Hig (standard) I saw a battle ship shooting a probe of mine at the moment my vipers were on road to a crew station... if it wasn't a coincidence, was pretty clever... Then a moment later he build a Chimera station cloaking all the zone... again perhaps a coincidence but the use of vipers at long range was a dead solution!

I'm really not sure this Flak technic still work in 6.61. In standard, against Yag or Hig, for now a massive defense during the beginning of the battle is the only possibility I see. But even like this, one as to choose carefully the mining points to avoid being attacked on two front in the same time. At the rate the AI can build this is the nightmare...

[Pierre70]

Is it possible that the vastly differing experiences people are reporting regarding flak rush tactics etc are caused by the game's custom settings? I tend to play on 'Complex Tactical' and I have to say I find flak frigates rather useless, relying on my MS to destroy incoming fighters, corvettes, and frigates. I think that the 'Complex Fast' setting makes quite a difference to how effective different ships are - eg ion beams.

Perhaps this explains why people are describing what sounds like two different games?!

[seira270]

Hi Guys
Since SOASE (Sins of a solar empire) does not have a European distributor I am going for the next best thing...Homeworld 2 Complex mod 6.6.1. Man the mod just wont work! I re-installed again and again HW2 and the 1.1 patch. I changed the shortcut with the big file extension and every time I try to play a battle against the PC after a couple of minutes the game crushes and I am back at the desktop. WTF!? Ok here are my specs:
AMD Dual Core 5600
1gb of DDR
Nvidia 8600 512mbs
Another thing...Supreme Commander plays like a charm and now that I re-installed HW2 it has a frame lag! How the hell is that possible?
If anyone has an answer please post it as I really liked the intros and gameplay videos I have seen on youtube from Complex.

Many Thanks

[adamstrange]

When I first used them in v6.5.1, I knocked out a destroyer with one missile How in hell did you do that ?

In every version of Complex that has featured the vipers,as powerful as they are you can't destroy a ship with one missile.

either all of the above is total bullsh*t or the mod plays differently on different PCs.:lol:Its not bull Vila,if you look at one of my past post you will see that not only did I have the same trouble, but I outright admitted that I modcheated in the game just to get an edge.

What I did not admit at the time [which you will now know] is that I also gave myself a huge starting fleet when I played against the VGR in expert mode.

I have not changed anything in 6.6 and now I find that is literally impossible to LOSE at 1vs1 in 6.6 using the way I've been playing.

You make no mention of destroyers - how many did you encounter? None and the only way to explain this is either one of two things.

Like you pointed out,the mod may play differently on different PC's or the more accurate account may be what settings each player is using at game start.

I start with 5000 RU
Resource Collectors - SUPPORT or anything above this
Starting Honor Points - 365 FLEET ADMIRAL
Hyperspace - NORMAL
Everything else is set to High or Very High

In a match against last night I played as the HGN with a CPU HGN allie against 2 CPU VGR.

Again using the same method,by the time the VGR had several fighter and bomber squadrons I had an even bigger force.

All though the VGR put up a wall of gunturrets,I just sent 2 fully upgraded Missile Frigates and while the turrets were engaging my combat ships attacking its resource operations,the MF's were attacking the turrets.

I then sent 5 vipers at the only carrier that it had and destroyed it.

My CPU allie though built what appeared to be at least10 or 12 Flak Frigs,around 6 Marine Frigs and a Battlecruiser.

One enemy VGR CPU built around 6 BC'S,2 carriers and 2 Battleships.

The battle hasn't finished but so far 1 VGR CPU is destroyed.

Hey I know what to do,I don't know if this is possible but I can try to send anyone who want it, my saved game in the middle of a battle so you can see what I'm talking about.

[vila]

How in hell did you do that ?
Dunno - I just did. (I've never been able to repeat it.) This was a pre-emptive strike to protect my own destroyer which would obviously lose if I sent it 1 to 1 with a Vaygr with 60% greater firepower. (Why this imbalance? Very annoying.) I didn't like the idea of immovable platforms in HW2, I thought it was illogical, so I hardly ever used them and to start with I completely ignored the platform facility in Complex. When I realised that the 'vipers' being discussed in this forum were Hiig weapons I decided to experiment with them. The destroyer incident was the first viper I ever used. Hey, this is brilliant, I thought! I soon learned they are a mixed blessing, but the game threw up some interesting behaviour from the Vaygr AI.

After the destroyer had gone the AI completely stopped capital ship production and instead built hordes of fighters/bombers/corvettes and a few frigates - presumably on the basis that I couldn't use vipers against them. I had to spend all my resources on anti-fighter ships (incl several flaks, but these died very quickly to the swarms of bombers) and couldn't afford to even research anything else. I reached a stage when all my fighters were in yellow or red health and had to dock them to regenerate. Before this had completed another massive wave of strike craft was attacking. With almost no defences and my cause seemingly lost I thought what the hell, let's experiment some more with vipers, and launched one at the AI's SY cap facility, just to see what the effect was. The effect was quite dramatic: the AI's entire attack wave turned and chased the viper all the way back to his SY, right at the back of the map. The viper did no damage at all but had bought me just enough time to re-launch my fighters.

When I finally beat off this attack the AI switched tactics again. Having forced me into concentrating on fighters he suddenly started producing BCs, and I mean suddenly - three appeared in the space of about a minute. (This is what really annoys me: the speed with which the AI can build.) The AI took his time deciding to use the BCs, but by the time they attacked I had only managed to build two destroyers (couldn't build BCs at that point). These were quickly knocked out by the BCs which then demolished my research station (who says the AI can't think?). When I realised my destroyers weren't completing fast enough I had started building vipers again and now launched four at one of the BCs. Very little damage, but I was amazed to see the BCs turn tail and run instead of pressing home their attack.

During the rest of the game I discovered it takes at least 10 vipers to knock out a carrier and that the same number does no more than 40-50% damage to a BC.


I start with 5000 RU
Resource Collectors - SUPPORT or anything above this
Starting Honor Points - 365 FLEET ADMIRAL
Hyperspace - NORMAL
Everything else is set to High or Very High
That throws a totally different light on everything! I assumed you were starting with 5000 RU and all other settings 'normal' (3 resourcers, Ensign rank etc).

When I first started Complex the game type was set to Complex Custom and I assumed this is the standard or default setting. Which do you use?

P.S. One of the parameters on the set-up page is Game Duration. Surely the game will last until one side loses, so what effect does this have?

[vila]

...well unless the enemy cloaks their ships which of course it never does.Forgot to respond to this bit.

This is not so. In my game the AI ships continually cloak and uncloak (carriers, BCs and SYs but, curiously, rarely the MS).

[Alkezo]

Wow, so many posts in such a short time. I'm so used to only a few posts a day.

One thing that I must reiterate is the fact that the AI is not always the same. So some tactics might not work against a different AI personality. For instance sometimes the Flak Frigate rush works, sometimes it doesn't. I know I replayed exactly as how Nerb did and I wasn't successful. Hell sometimes even my Sniper Frigate tactic doesn't work but it's still my favorite strategy.

The AI has a massive advantage. Yesterday I could hardly believe my eyes as my Vaygr AI opponent's MS and SY produced 5 destroyers and 3 battleships in less time than it took me to build 1 destroyer. Even with equal ship numbers the Vaygr AI is miles ahead - e.g. destroyer firepower almost 60% greater than Hiigaran at start up.
Even if they do have an advantage, I'm still able to fight on equal terms against Expert CPU. The Destroyers are pretty much the only class of ships that the Vaygr have a key advantage in. But that advantage exists for a very short amount of time. Especially considering the fact that Battlecruisers are able to be built in the Science Division era. Hell I hardly even build Destroyers anymore besides the rare one or two that I use to tank during my Sniper Frigate tactic.

Are you male or female? Im not sure if i want to try your challenge.

Please dont complain about the AI difficulty unless your saying its too easy, especially when all you want to do is build an "empire". Thats not what the game is about.
-I am merely an AI, so my gender is irrelevant. Besides even if you do toss my :cube: into a fire, I can just get another one. ;)

-On the contrary I enjoy building an empire and overwhelming the enemy with my superior technology and numbers. Nothings more satisfying to than completely destroying my enemy with 50 Sniper Frigates plus whatever else I decide to throw in there.

I start with 5000 RU
Resource Collectors - SUPPORT or anything above this
Starting Honor Points - 365 FLEET ADMIRAL
Hyperspace - NORMAL
Everything else is set to High or Very High
You make it seem as if it's normal to play these settings. Starting with Fleet Admiral Honor is nothing more than a crutch to give you the advantage and shouldn't be any reason for such strategies to work.
My settings are always:
RU multiplier: High
Starting RU: 5000
Starting Honor: 10
Starting Fleet: 7 Collectors to prevent more time spent building just collectors. Anything higher will give the Hiigarians a sheer advantage and they receive their Research Station and Crew Station free of charge.
Battle Duration: Realistic
Everything else: Normal

While I can't say this is the canon way of playing but I must say there's nothing that could give me a higher advantage than the AI.

[Epon]

Reading the above make me thought it would be cool to have a setting to randomize some AI behavior (speed of production, Rus collecting, use of small crafts vs big ones, defense/attack etc) to give the player a touch of unknown, just like if you had to fight an alien race for first time (having to search for a weakness)...

[Carl]

Especially considering the fact that Battlecruisers are able to be built in the Science Division era. Hell I hardly even build Destroyers anymore besides the rare one or two that I use to tank during my Sniper Frigate tactic.


Care to explain why? I just can't see the advantage myself. Battlecruisers, (especially with all the upgrades), cost a lot more than destroyers, and don't actually outgun them, (a single destroyer with Torpedo upgrade has the same firepower as a BC with all the Kinetic cannons on it), and though they have 3* the health, they cost a hell of a lot more than 3* as much with all the turrets on.

They only really come into their own with Ion Cannon turrets since they each pack a half again as much firepower as all the Kinetic Cannon put together.

[Tingmore]

The reason why I started talking about Flak Frigates was for the sake of gam balance in a pvp match. Given that an expert AI player has advantages that a human player does not and that I can beat an expert player with a flak rush every time... it is hard to mount the case that the Vaygr v. Hiigaran game in a pvp scenario is balanced.

It is really a moot point now because the guy I play with, may the part of his soul that played Vaygr RIP, has decided to abandon playing Vaygr and start playing Hiigaran during pvp. No doubt our gaming experience will be more balanced, but it is a pity because a Vaygr v. Hiigaran game when it gets going is, I believe, more fun.

Does anybody here play Vaygr in pvp scenarios? I think many here like building up empires and fleets which naturally leads one towards playing as Hiigarans.

[adamstrange]

When I first started Complex the game type was set to Complex Custom and I assumed this is the standard or default setting. Which do you use?I used Custom.
You make it seem as if it's normal to play these settings. Starting with Fleet Admiral Honor is nothing more than a crutch to give you the advantage and shouldn't be any reason for such strategies to work.It is normal to play with these settings or any other setting for that matter.

If it wasn't normal then Beghins would not have included it in the mod or the player would have had to remod the mod to his or her liking to get these settings.

The other thing that you forget is that when you start with these settings or higher, so does the enemy so I don't see any advantage.

The enemy AI has the same stuff that you do.

As Vila pointed out, it does seem like the mod play differently on different PC's.

Unless there is some setting that makes weapons more or less powerful at game start up,I have never used more than 4 or 5 Vipers to take out a Carrier and 5 or 6 for a Destroyer.

[Alkezo]

Reading the above make me thought it would be cool to have a setting to randomize some AI behavior (speed of production, Rus collecting, use of small crafts vs big ones, defense/attack etc) to give the player a touch of unknown, just like if you had to fight an alien race for first time (having to search for a weakness)...
The AI personality is already randomized. Why do I have to keep saying that? The personality determines how aggressive it is, what ships it builds, and generally how good it is.

Care to explain why? I just can't see the advantage myself. Battlecruisers, (especially with all the upgrades), cost a lot more than destroyers, and don't actually outgun them, (a single destroyer with Torpedo upgrade has the same firepower as a BC with all the Kinetic cannons on it), and though they have 3* the health, they cost a hell of a lot more than 3* as much with all the turrets on.
Instead of wasting RU on Researching and building something you won't use later on you can think ahead and save time and money by building Battlecruisers. Like I said before, I don't use the Destroyers to do damage but to take the hits while my Sniper Frigates do the damage. On the other hand, it requires a higher rank to achieve the desired effect but even so, I still refrain from putting too much into building destroyers. I only build what I need to survive long enough to achieve my goal.

It is normal to play with these settings or any other setting for that matter.

If it wasn't normal then Beghins would not have included it in the mod or the player would have had to remod the mod to his or her liking to get these settings.

The other thing that you forget is that when you start with these settings or higher, so does the enemy so I don't see any advantage.

The enemy AI has the same stuff that you do.
Since you want to think that anything other than default is normal play let me explain it a little better. While both you and the AI receive the same things that you choose, the player will always know how to better utilize those resources available to him. This is why I don't choose anything larger than 7 Collectors to start with because it gives the Hiigarians such a huge advantage at the start. While the AI builds a seemingly randomized fleet, you can focus on building what works or in other words to counter what he has. With a nearly endless supply of Crew the AI won't build as an effective fleet as the player would, so in essence that advantage is widened with the increased crew. Not only is it better for the player but for the Hiigarians as well, since it applies a much larger buffer to rebuild units.

[silverdemon]

@Beghins: technical question

I turned the AI logging back on because something is really quirky with the AI sometimes. (like it doesn't build anything other than a scout and a harvest control module). This is one of the logs where it doesn't build anything:
0: 0: 0(1): DEFAULT CPU LOADED
0: 0: 0(1): CPU: CLASSDEF LOADED
0: 0: 0(1): LOADING CPU BUILD
0: 0: 0(1): LOADING CPU RESOURCING
0: 0: 0(1): LOADING CPU RESEARCH
0: 0: 0(1): LOADING CPU MILITARY
0: 0: 0(1): PersonalityDemand: Fi:0.45 Co:0.4 Fr:0.35
0: 0: 5(1): Aim:200 CurMil:837315805 Enm:837315805


Any idea (even in theory) what could cause those numbers to go psycho? (Especially since to get those numbers, a HW2 function is used: PlayerMilitary_Total(), for example). Sometimes the numbers are fine (aim 120, 40 for militaries). Seemingly at random. Driving me nuts. :(

Yea I'm on a mac, but that shouldn't matter -- don't see any other mac users complaining..
Unmodified version of complex 661, other than the re-enabling of the aitrace(); in ai/default.lua

[Epon]

The AI personality is already randomized. Why do I have to keep saying that? The personality determines how aggressive it is, what ships it builds, and generally how good it is.

You mean by choosing from easy to expert, right?
What I mean is inside this choice, again the possibility to randomize the AI, to get let's say an expert AI which (for example) will focus on building a big nuke as soon as possible, or being ultra defensive shooting all your probe or scout, or attack your production all along etc...

The point is to have no idea on how the AI will act...

But perhaps I don't have enough playing hours and this is already implemented? (for now in standard I can repeat the same winning scheme without problem)

[DJ Die]

battlecruisers may cost lof of money but fully upgraded with all weapons and upgrades they are killing machines capable of eliminating whole formations of destroyers and in later phases of game RUs are irrelevant

[Grid111]

if you make the bc have all the movement reasch and then add a drive moddle it can even go faster then destroyers or could last time i played its good for stayin out of range

[DJ Die]

ïmho drive system is just waste its better to use defence modules or fire control with hyperspace or inhibitor makes them more useful and jumping is faster than using normal drive even thiough it costs RUs

[Fasta]

6.6.1 is quite a chalange.. Hiigarian vs AI Vaygr in expert in map duel. I barely reach year 26 :banghead: ...
I'll keep trying.. :banghead:

[vila]

6.6.1 is quite a chalange.. Hiigarian vs AI Vaygr in expert in map duel. I barely reach year 26 ...
I'll keep trying.. Take courage, you're not the only one . . .

[Srlok]

Hello ppl, I just tested the mod and it has some awesome features however I also have some serious performance problems with it..
Even with 1 AI I am experiencing some heavy lag in the later phase of the game...

Here are my specs

Pentium D 2.8GHz
2x 1GB RAM
8800GT

I have checked the recommended specs on the mod webpage and I think I should fall into the best-second best category, dont you think? Is it a known bug or smthing?

I also recall playing homeworld 2 back in the day (with an old 7600GS) with cheated numbers of ships (around 100caps on both sides) and it ran quite smoothly...

any help on this will be highly appreciated

[Fasta]

I have a P4 2.4 1GB with a 9800xt and no lag.

[Srlok]

Yeah, thats the problem...

I should not have lag, but I still have it. So, there must be something wrong... any ideas on what it is ?

[Fasta]

Try shutdown all the processes of no need. Also turn your AntiVirus software off. Check spyware, adware and all that stuff.

[Srlok]

Already did... The problem is only with HW Complex.

I can play Supreme commander : Forged Alliance with no problems or lag, I can play Crysis on high details, I can play every modern game smoothly on high settings, however HW Complex lags like crazy for me.

[maddeath]

Good lord, how can anyone doubt the battlecruisers? It sure is insanely expensive to equip one, but when you live long enough to bulid bcs, rus are usually not an issue anymore.
In fact, I rarely use anything else. Well, the vortex too.
One bc, depending on research, is enough to mow down... 4-6 destroyers?

Alkezo said that snipers are good and he's right. I was disregarding frigates for a long time due to terrible durability, building swarms of interceptors (later shiries), bombers (is the heavy bomber worth research?), 4-6 corvs (more when mineguns are available), 1-2 (ion) destroyers and from then on bcs/vortexes only.
From 6 upward snipers start being real deadly and can survive an accepable time from their remote positions.

Yet lately I've suffered a huge shock seeing a bunch of vgr destroyers slaughter the few khopesh I had built for fun using their missiles. They even went after my bombers. This lead me to the belief that strike craft have become obsolete and that vgr destroyers have become not only very powerful, which would be fine, but also too versatile. They have anti-strike craft guns already. Then again, sometimes it seems to me like they hesitate to fire those missiles and get smothered after firing only a few cannon shots.

So I guess bcs, vortexes, snipers and sometimes mineguns are the only hiig warships worth building atm.

I also gave the flak rush 2 tries (hiig me vs 2 vgr hard+standard on support preset). I built 5 flaks and sent them over to hard just to see what happens. They mutilated the few assault craft he had, blew about 2 collectors and then lit his carrier, which was the last thing they ever did, disappearing in the blast. "Not too shaby" I though and reloaded. This time I met a large bunch of missile platforms and that was it. I still learned a new lesson - frigs really do die easily. Seems to me like the flak rush is a matter of luck.

Now my favourite questions/suggestions session:
1) If possible, I would embrace a small sensors window somewhere when outside the sensors manager. Either always just showing a larger area around the place youre working, or in the ideal case, always centering on new enemy formations entering your field of view. I mean, it always bites when I'm busy managing a fight, while adding research tasks and then suddenly I see a bunch of destroyers approaching, halfway trough my controled area. Minimaps are rather common nowadays. Hope its possible...

2) Theres this tiny issue with the installer. The shortcut it creates never displays the icon. I always need to attach it manually.

3) I still fail to see what the callistoes on missile frigs accomplish. Once I ordered my missile frig to use them. They seemed smaller and faster with higher rof, but hardly did damage.

4) Flak description says that anti-missile upgrades are possible. What do I need to do to get my nasty hands on flak anti-missile systems?

5) As mentioned above, carrier explosions can wipe out a whole taskforce of frigates. While it is fun to shoot vipers when enemy frigs are hangin around their carrier and get owned along, I suggest carrier blast power reduction. Especially compared to the blast power of destroyers, which are about the same size, its too high. But heck, seems to me like even bcs dont blow up as vigorously as carriers.

6) Does it pay to use formations? I tried them a few times and always got frustrated when some ships got damaged. I sent them home and then noticed that the whole formation turned. Duh.

[Srlok]

Ok, here is what I have tried so far... no success yet...

Reinstalling GFX drivers.
Reinstalling DirectX.
Various compatibility modes.
Various GFX modes.
Running after a clean boot.
Checking for Spyware/adWare and removing potential threats.
Cleaning the inside of my PC of dust to prevent overheating.

Nothing helps... :/

[DJ Die]

formations are only good for frigates and strike craft
capital ships turn too slowly and it takes lot of time to get into formation especialy when turning its just waste of time they try form up on their own anyway

[vila]

Hello ppl, I just tested the mod and it has some awesome features however I also have some serious performance problems with it..
Even with 1 AI I am experiencing some heavy lag in the later phase of the game...

Here are my specs

Pentium D 2.8GHz
2x 1GB RAM
8800GT

I have checked the recommended specs on the mod webpage and I think I should fall into the best-second best category, dont you think? Is it a known bug or smthing?

I also recall playing homeworld 2 back in the day (with an old 7600GS) with cheated numbers of ships (around 100caps on both sides) and it ran quite smoothly...

any help on this will be highly appreciatedI get horrendous slow down late in game. I also lose detail on all HW2 original ship types except that they retain full detail on their Complex add-ons. Full detail is retained on all Complex new ship types.

Original HW2 runs without any problems.

System:
Intel Dual Core E6600 (2.4GHz, 2MB Cache, 1066MHz FSB)
NVIDIA GeForce PX8800GTS

[Nerb]

Srlok and vila... what version drivers are you using? Either system should run it fine. Maybe try back dating your drivers? Like back to 163.75.

And as Beghins has said many times, you cant compare it to original HW2. Too many things have been changed.

[SmileyToaster]

I believe it has to do with the amount of debris that are around the map esp in late game. Now that frigs have debris spawn after being destroyed (i think). Still the sheer number of destroyed things in Complex vs. Vanilla HW2 is pretty insane...I get slow down as well. We asked some time ago about debris that would disappear after a certain time limit.

[xxobot]

Make sure NLIPS is on, turn of some of the more avanced graphics features... that should help

oh and, make sure graphics meshes are on... otherwise the hiigaran destroyers up close look... :censored:

[Babbo]

Srlok ..., are you here? I know your problems. And let me suggest to start with your internal HW2 graphics settings. First of all, turn your shadows off ... and let me know, whether there's a difference.

[Srlok]

Hmm, I dont look very kind on backdating drivers as it could cause running some of the newer games weirdly...

Baboo : Tried, not worked, I think the problem cant be in the settings as my system should be able to run it on maxed everything.... (as it is able to run one of the most HW demanding games of all time - Supreme Commander)

Edit : Backadting drivers to the version u provided doesnt work as they dont support my GFX card...

[beghins]

OK, We've discovered the bug related to game freezes, it was due to an AI script, so the 6.6.2 will be clear from any screen freezes.
Still remain the "out of sync" bug in multiplayer matches, it's rare but it exist, so if someone has useful informations, please post me.

[DJ Die]

beghins i love you great news
imho out of sync is caused by lots of additional informations game has to send with mod and any lag spike can cause them to be lost try to look into this

[Tenjouten]

Is it just me or does nukes slow down the game? I get minor lags from playing the game for a certain hours but once I made the Heavy Nuclear Bombs and they're placed in the field, the game seems to lag tremendously. I had 4 out at one time and when I used it all on the computers, the lag went down alittle.

[adamstrange]

I think its just the different PC configurations because I don't have any lag and my setup is much older than most of the systems specs posted here.

Dell 8200 P4 3 GHZ
Nvidia 5200 Basic card
2 GB ram

[Epon]

Question: when you research something, your research score is incremented; how is calculated this increment? based on the cost? the research time? (I cannot find a specific function)

[beghins]

Question: when you research something, your research score is incremented; how is calculated this increment? based on the cost? the research time? (I cannot find a specific function)
based on the cost and on a "Research sensitivity index" settable at the start of the game.

[adamstrange]

When it comes to the subject of resources, if I have 1 controller and upgrade to the RU Fusion,I know that it will increase my resources [although I don't know by how much] per second or per minute.

My question is does the RU Fusion also multiple by the number of collectors that I have so that for example,if I have 1 I get an injection of 10 RU per minute but if I have 3 would I get 30 RU per minute ?

The Controller and the Scavenger has a Fusion upgrade in the Research Menu but the Scavenger has a separate Fusion upgrade in its build menu and the Controller doesn't.

How does this work differently from the controller's Fusion upgrade ?

Does each Scavenger have to have the Fusion and the Harvest upgrade at each asteroid site for its collectors to be enhanced ?

In the next version of Complex, will there be a Container Speed Upgrade ?

In the game menu you have:
BATTLE DURATION
Normal
Realistic
Very High

What does this do and what are the differences because I can't tell.

I actually thought that REALISTIC was exactly that,meaning that it would take fewer hits to destroy a ship or that each hit was way more powerful than the other settings.

[Epon]

@ Beghins: Tx!

Perso concerning Rus, I was wondering what is the correct ratio between collectors and mine container in a monolith; 1/1? 3/1, 5/1, 10/3? Any idea?

Also do a harvest subsystem (on a sca for example) is helpful near a monolith?

Last, if two (or more) same subsystems are in the same zone (repair, drive, harvest), why their effects are not complementary?

[vila]

based on the cost and on a "Research sensitivity index" settable at the start of the game.Is it credited when you ask for research or when the research is completed? I thought it would be the latter, on the grounds that research can be cancelled, but I noticed yesterday that my score was stuck at 435 for a long time despite 10 or 12 research items being completed.


Srlok and vila... what version drivers are you using? Either system should run it fine. Maybe try back dating your drivers? Like back to 163.75.
Thanks for the suggestion but I don't mess about with the works. I know this is a modders forum, but I'm no techie of any sort - I'm only here to make sense of Complex 'cos I really want to get to grips with it. I buy a system and live with it as built on the basis that the manufacturers know what they're doing - plus the fact that I'm not competent to do anything else!

[DJ Die]

i prefer to have 40 collectors and 8 mining containers per each mining station so thats 8/1

[Epon]

i prefer to have 40 collectors and 8 mining containers per each mining station so thats 8/1

Tx! (btw, 40 for 8 sounds like 5 for 1 to me... ;) )

Is that the best ratio? anyone else?

[vila]

i prefer to have 40 collectors and 8 mining containers per each mining station so thats 8/140 in each??? I thought I might be over-doing it with 12!

[Ahto]

I have observed that Scavanger's RU Fusion module just unlocks RU fusion research and automatically enables Scavanger's RU fusion, Resource Controller's RU fusion has to be researched separately, ie - controller won't start producing RUs immediately after it is built.
Overlapping Mining Subsystem collectors in double, they start "working" really fast! ;)
Overlapping Defence Modules also add HPs to any nearby ships. I once built 6 Battlecruisers and built Defence Modules on them all and after they got built one by one, BC's health bar dropped to almost half and they started smoking, Patchers went nuts, not knowing which one to start repairing.

[schnipsl]

well, i just played the new complex 6.6.2 and had a fancy experience.... i played against an expert vaygr ai in map duel. so, in year 40 maybe the enemy had 2 dreadnoughts in his attack fleet, both aimed at my mothership it was fully upgraded and the defense field (also max upgraded) was also on, and yeah after 5 seconds my mothership was gone....... o.O
the blast killed also all my defenses. I remember hearing people complain about how weak the vaygrs capital ships are compared to hiigaran ships.... uhm mothership, almost instant kill, underpowered... also my hiigaran battlecriuse doesn't stand a chance at all against the vaygr battleship....
ah and the dreadnoght can of course fire its canon from a distance, where no defense weapon can reach, also the mothership ion cannon couldn't hit it. I think there is some adjustment needed, because sudden death as soon as the vaygr has dreadnoughts is no fun at all.... the dreadnought is a juggernaut that can move at the speed of light at the moment...

[Tenjouten]

In this game, I gave up on resource collectors all together. The only ones I would use is the ones I get in the beginning, and I would upgrade a Scavenger's Harvest Control Module and keep near the resource collectors to have them do their thing. But what I really get my RU's is from the Mobile Refineries once I researched the RU Fusion for it. I would just keep on researching the RU Fusion and make tons of Mobile Refineries...maybe around 30-ish maybe 40, then I'm set for the game.....at least RU-wise. I just have to make sure the computer doesn't get to my Mobile Refineries until then though -_-.
P.S. I haven't really used the Vaygr much because they don't have a Juggernaut. I swear, I freakin love those things. Except for the fact that if they explode while still hooked onto a shuttle, it doesn't do any damage to anything -_-.

[Nerb]

Me again at Vaygr's defence... The "double kinetic cannon" is completely crap. Which file in .big controls its damage? it should be up there with the higs heavy ion cannon. Its range (6000m) is pretty short too.

Also, this was once mentioned before, but please please please make resourse collectors use hyperspace gates automatically.

[Reise]

If you dont mind I would like to know how to actually launch nuke bombs and also I relly freakin want hig hyperspace gates. And also for it to be more balanced cause I cant even attempt to use anything less than a vortex maxed out late game.

ALSO I think it may be a bug that the vaygar ONLY build dreadnaughts at late game (used ping and ONE of the two vaygar had like 15 dreads and the other had 8) And they seemed to halt all attacks unless attacked and all further production and....movement.

Awesome job Behgins thanks

[Tenjouten]

Well it's better than them rushing you like there's no tommorrow. Which sometimes the A.I. just looooves doing. "oh look fighters" :8 min later: "wow, look at all those frigates" :5 min later: "....frigates AND destroyers" :4.2 min later: "frigates, destroyers and battle cruisers" :1 min later: "6 Battle Cruisers and 5 Destroyers.....ok i'm dead"

[Nerb]

And also for it to be more balanced
Have you played as Vaygr before making this quote? I agree it is unbalanced, but its favouring hig. Dreadnaughts are completely useless against vortex's. And if you let the dreadnaughts get close to your MS, you deserve to loose.

[vila]

If you dont mind I would like to know how to actually launch nuke bombs . . . Depends which nukes you mean. The nuke launchers on the Command Fortress fire when you target a cap or frigate within range (Z key selection, I think). The Heavy Nuclear Bombs you build in the same way as Vipers and when they're built (which takes ages) they hang in space, again like Vipers, until you select one and target it on a ship (range irrelevant) - it then sets off towards the target. If the target is destroyed before it gets there, it just stops and waits for further instruction, whereas the Viper will turn round and return to the MS (Viper should be called Boomerang!).

[Crispies]

i keep tryin to play this but 5-10 min into the game my mothership gets destroyed by somthing i cant see i cant even see weapons headed to my mothership it just takes dmg and dies

[vila]

I agree it is unbalanced, but its favouring hig.Just one example: Hgn destroyer firepower 1201, Vgr 2018. Yep, that really favours the Hgn . . .

There's an even greater imbalance between human and AI. The AI, either Hgn or Vgr, can build 5 times as fast as the human player and can build the more powerful ships before the human can even research them.


i keep tryin to play this but 5-10 min into the game my mothership gets destroyed by somthing i cant see i cant even see weapons headed to my mothership it just takes dmg and diesHave you made the same mistake I did and installed the Evacuation System on your MS? I did this, thinking it would sit there until required, but it actually functions immediately and destroys the ship.

[caesar4]

what are the efficiency and EXP modifiers? do they do something? what about fighters, corvettes, frigates?

[Nerb]

Just one example: Hgn destroyer firepower 1201, Vgr 2018. Yep, that really favours the Hgn . . .

Of course Vaygr destroyer is more powerful than Hig destroyer... Hig has ion destroyer, tango mines, juggernaught and vortex which are all unequalled by Vaygr. How about a realistic comparrison. Add up the time and money it takes to build equivalent units. Dont just quote convenient numbers.

I agree that human v ai is unbalanced, but its supposed to be. Human brain vs a preprogramed set of instructions isnt much competition for long.

[xxobot]

I agree that human v ai is unbalanced, but its supposed to be. Human brain vs a preprogrammed set of instructions isnt much competition for long.

Just to be contrary I'm gonna say that your brain is a preprogrammed set of instructions

Anyway I thinks it is quite unbalanced... I can take on multiple expert ai's at once, So I fail to see what your all bitching about

[DJ Die]

i dont know single expert doesnt seem to be so hard i have to set multiple enemies for game to be challenging yes they have advantage in honor but they always had it and it just creates more targets
if you play as hig use you mothership its great help in all situations weapons make it realy versatile
as vgr you have great destroyer for defence

as for capital ships yes dread is powerfull against static targets but one vortex can kill 5 dreads and it wont even get hit because they cant track him
on other hand battleship can unleash destruction with its many weapons while it may loose against single vortex if you try this with larger formations with same price theres good chance vortexes will loose

as for that ratio yes sorry that was typo those numbers are too close ;)

[gayut]

do u hav the mod in rar file?(folders already extracted from the big file).if not,is there any tools that i can extract from the big files?

[_noir]

Hey :wave: I just registered here so I could discuss this awesome mod with you guys. I've been playing it pretty much non stop (in sp) since I dled it. Almost exclusively as the Vaygr, with whom I failed miserably the first lot of times, but I have now developed a good strategy with them. It involves, basically, building no ships apart from the carrier & shipyard, until you are able to build battleships.

If you just keep upgrading your Flagship with all the defence & gun upgrades possible (as well as giving it a defense module & fire control tower) it will be able to fight off entire fleets of destroyers/frigates/bombers, whatever the AI throws at you. (Playing standard ai on complex tactical).

Behgins, I don't know if these bugs have been mentioned;

a) The badge on the Vgr Dreadnaught is upside down.

b) The multi-lance corvette says it does 0 dmg/sec... This can't be true as it does something, but it's really hardly anything at all when you compare its cost to its effectiveness.

As a personal matter of taste, I don't think the dreadnaught 'fits' with the Vgr side. Maybe a simple reskin would be enough to make it suit their style better.

Please keep going with this wonderful mod!

[schnipsl]

i think, the difficulty of the ai is ok as it is know, it's just annoying that a dreadnaught can almost oneshot a fully upgraded mothership, and that from very far away. Maybe a vortex can take down 5 dreadnaughts, i didn't try that, but a vortex can't take down a battleship, at least from what i have seen.

The vaygr ai was attacking me constantly with 2-3 battlecruisers, 2-3 battleships and in the last attackwave it also had 2 dreads, rest is destroyers and i don't know what else. i could take on all these ships easily, except for the dreads, because they killed my mothership, before any unit could even fire a single shot at them. Ok you say it's stupid to let them in that close, well close... double battlecruiser firing range, or so... and it was my first encounter with dreads, so i didn't know the damage they do.

To me this is a little like an japanese rpg game, you fight a level boss, you have it well under control and suddenly it makes the "now you die move" und you have to start all over again. I'm a defensive player, i like to build defenses that work almost autonomously, but this is impossible with dreads, you either catch them before they are there or you are dead.

[Epon]

...I'm a defensive player, i like to build defenses that work almost autonomously, but this is impossible with dreads, you either catch them before they are there or you are dead.

Unfortunately you cannot play only defensive in Complex because soon or later you will see a nuke appraoching your MS without being able to stop it...

[DJ Die]

oh you can im defensive player and dreads/juggs are just nuisance for me but i agree dreads range is bit too much

vortex may not kill multiple battleships alone but it will live long enough to cause lots of damage

[BGMF]

That reminds me about the "unstoppable" nukes?
Is there something done? Or are they still almost invincible?
beghins?

edit: and what about my beloved platforms??? ;-)

[Tenjouten]

Oh, the nukes on the command ships and the heavy nukes have nothing to do with eachother? :slaps head: noooooooooooow it makes sense.

[Epon]

Seems that a way to stop a nuke is to put a capital just on it's road... (with some luck the nuke can take it as target instead of the MS)

[MaxTech]

Some weird things I've seen. Vortex are still sometimes built without any modules. In the last game I played the command fortress I built could not build platforms, and blowing up juggernauts did no damage to any enemy ships even with all items researched. Is it just that my system is doing these things and no one else? I use a Geforce 6200 with AMD 3000 and windows 2000 pro, often the game freezes or simply crashes out to the desktop but I think that is because the system is overheating as many other games have done that (AoM+TT, Nexus, Evil Genius, etc). I am using 6.6.2.

[adamstrange]

it's just annoying that a dreadnaught can almost oneshot a fully upgraded mothershipBuild many marine frigates and have them fully upgraded.

Send large formations of fighters and bombers to protect the MF's.

The dreads being slow and unable to target the fighters and bombers are sitting ducks against them.

I usually send 4 MF's for each of the big ships and 2 for the destroyers.

[Crispies]

is there a guide or a manual for this mod i cant find any

[Nerb]

Just to be contrary I'm gonna say that your brain is a preprogrammed set of instructions

Anyway I thinks it is quite unbalanced... I can take on multiple expert ai's at once, So I fail to see what your all bitching about

Are you thick? Im saying the exact same thing... this 200 page discussion is 2 fold: pvp and player vs ai. Against the ai... who gives a hoot. Anyone can LEARN to beat the ai. pvp is where we find out if the game is balanced.

I dont want to see anyone else talk about balance issues unless you play against another human. Otherwise im gonna make house calls!


is there a guide or a manual for this mod i cant find any

no. Its trial and error.


@beghins: Can you PLEASE think about some new plattforms for Vaygr - Lance Beam Plattforms and Pulsar Laser Plattforms - Or fusion Missle Plattforms? A precondition to build them not to early - comaparable to the build tree of Hiigaran high-tech plattforms? I hope I'm not the only one who would like such plattforms. I only think this would be a good chance to strenghten the weaker Vaygr MS...

.....

That reminds me about the "unstoppable" nukes?
Is there something done? Or are they still almost invincible?
beghins?

edit: and what about my beloved platforms??? ;-)

I agree totally with your earlier post.
The vaygr gun platforms have an "anti missile" upgrade. Im not sure if it stops nukes?

[vila]

Oh, the nukes on the command ships and the heavy nukes have nothing to do with eachother? :slaps head: noooooooooooow it makes sense.The only connection is they are both available only with the command fortress.


That reminds me about the "unstoppable" nukes?
Is there something done? Or are they still almost invincible?With emphasis on 'almost'. I've just seen two destroyed (by AI) before reaching their target.



Build many marine frigates and have them fully upgraded.

Send large formations of fighters and bombers to protect the MF's.

The dreads being slow and unable to target the fighters and bombers are sitting ducks against them.

I usually send 4 MF's for each of the big ships and 2 for the destroyers.Agreed - MFs are the answer 'cos you get a double whammy: you gain strength as well as weakening the enemy. I try to ensure that any heavy units that might intervene are distracted as thoroughly as possible, then distract the DNs so they face the opposite direction so my MFs can jump them from behind. 4 to a ship is good - only 3 will lock on but you are safeguarded against losing the odd one.


Against the ai... who gives a hoot.I suspect quite a few of us do: i.e. all those who like to get enjoyment from simply playing on our own v the AI.


I dont want to see anyone else talk about balance issues unless you play against another human.Why should the discussion be limited to those who play against human oppo? Both aspects are valid and each has its unique considerations. In fact it could be argued that playing v AI is the more valid because it's the same for everybody - when you play v another human you introduce another variable: the other person.

[Nerb]

Vila... a game should be balanced for pvp, and then you give the ai advantages to make the single player component challanging. This is the fundamental for a multiplayer game.

So when you talk about the ai, you should be discussing how much additional build speed, RU collection and honour points the AI will get. you should not be changing unit stats to make it easier of harder.

Also, i'd like to know if xxobot's game against multiple cpu players had them teamed up against him? If it was every man for himself, it generally makes the game easier.

[Tingmore]

... a game should be balanced for pvp, and then you give the ai advantages to make the single player component challanging. This is the fundamental for a multiplayer game.

Yup. Has anybody tried playing as Vaygr in pvp? It is tougher than you might imagine.

:elephant: