Riddle of Cypher Solved

[Varvidos]

If anyone doesnt know who Cypher is..im sure someone will explain later in the thread.

First up, lets explain the Watchers in the Dark.

They are the Illuminati. It makes sense if you think about it. As we all know, their goal is to sacrifice all the sensei in order to return the Emperor to life.

If you read back to the fluff about the Emperor, he was created by ALL the shamans combining their energies.

People seem to think that the Primarchs will return. I agree, but not how everyone thinks. The Primarchs contain a part of the Emperor. Thus in oder to bring him back, the Primarchs must sacrifice themselves. Some of them are already dead, some are now Daemon Princes of Chaos.

Back to Cypher, he is the head of the Illuminati (or a high ranking member) and tasked to return the Primarchs/sensei to the warp. The "power" that protects him is in fact, the Star Child. He has been branded a heretic because he consorts with the sensei.

Whoever said he's a Dark Angel? It seems only the DA claim that. As for carrying the Lion's sword, that's anyone's guess.

Discuss.

[Ramrod]

wait wait wait. that sword he carries is really el'jonson's sword. hotdamn.

also, i agree with the comment about nobody being sure whether he REALLY is a DA. people automatically assume he is, even though every piece of fluff i've read about him specifically says "it is rumoured he was once a member of the dark angels." that doesn't mean it's set in stone.

(thanks for explaining about the watchers in the dark, i've never read Codex: Angels of Death)

[Varvidos]

I have all the codexes.

However, nothing i just said is official.

It simply makes sense to me that the Watchers in the Dark are the Illuminati. Its a typically GW obscure reference.

[Robot Jesus]

but then who is the entity protecting him. it cant be the emporor because he is ignorant of the iluminati plan.

[Gabekun]

Eh, to quote the white dwarf H&V article on him...

However, the occasional glimpse of the dark power armor beneath the long robes that Cypher wears indicates, without a doubt, that he is one of the Fallen."


Cypher of the Fallen Angels

as for the sword... the article also mentions that, saying that it could be the fabled Lion Sword. In the older C:CSM codex, his listing had him carrying a C'Tan Phase Sword...

[Grim_Reaper47]

there is so many theory's on Cypher that GW made where to the point he's the best mystry in the 40k games.Well in the GW they said his name Cypher the Fallen Angel.If you read the Angels of Darkness Cypher in the end pulls a very very very smart on the DA chaplian where this nuclear weaopon...I want to ruin it then .Anyways back to cypher If your read every fluff of him you kinda see a puzzle.Like it goes back and fourth and so on.We will never find out because GW keeps us guessing on the same thing like I said going back fourth Ive already heard about this theory and tons more.I think the only way Cypher can be solved is the keys that dont even relate to Cypher.Also there is big gaps in the DA fluff and it jumps around.Like they said the lion stayed back and waiting whoever won but I think I heard the space wolfs were the lion at the same time heading back to terra during Hours hearsy betrail. How the hell the emperor knows about the half of the chapter turned to choas can he read peoples mind.Or we can put our minds together and try to solve the mystry.

[Toebot]

2bd edtion chaos codex.....cypher and any OTHER fallen angels are hunted by the ravenwing and deathwing.

that right there is enough siad that he is a fallen angel

[FerociousBeast]

as for the sword... the article also mentions that, saying that it could be the fabled Lion Sword. In the older C:CSM codex, his listing had him carrying a C'Tan Phase Sword...

Nope, it listed him with a C'tan Phase Knife. The sword on his back is believed to be the Lion Sword, but he doesn't use it in combat.

[Lord Dante]

Cypher could be Luther... makes sense really.

hes the last one near Lion'o, grabs his sword, voila.

[Iwata]

So much discussion about a single heretic...

All we need to know is where he is. The rest are mere details.

[Dimension]

i thought cypher can't be luther because luther was captured.

[Aquila]

Luther is imprisoned in the deepest bowels of the rock. There is a story in the dark angels codex of him being interrogated by either Asmodai or Azrael. Luther is not Cypher.

[Lord Dante]

good point! my fluff bad. :(

[MacBeth]

cypher is at the top of our list in the book.
why would a servent of the chaos gods dress up in dark angel power armor and there robes?plus look at his back pack.
nothing is truly known about the man,we dont even know if he carrys the lion blade or luthers black blade.

[Crasster]

Iwata makes me happy when he posts.

[Lord Dante]

who is Cypher. some old fallen DA whos a bit more cunning, doesnt get caught, nips about buying stuff. slight taint of chaos.
theres not enough written on him to be honest.

The DA are so sodding lame tho. i mean they get some lil muppet in a robe to carry the lions helm. just put the sodding thing on azreal you nonce.

[InquisitorZIM]

Cyohers most recent "appearance" was in the eye of Terror Campaign, when reports of a person callign themselves the "Voice of the Emperor" was traced to the asteriod feild where the Dark Angel homeworld of Caliban once was.

It was revelaed that NightLord marines had been broadcasting the signals, the that the "Voice" had been spotted leading some units of Imperial Guard and citizens. There is also a short bit floating around of Cypher meeting with Abbadon the Despoiler.

Cyphers alleged goal is to bring the Lion sword befor ethe Emperor in order to right the wrongs of the Fallen Angels, and seek forgiveness for the chapter, or that he wishes to reveal the original legions heresy in order to find some sort of redemption for their actions under Luthor.

As for the Illuminati, their true natures were revealed in the Inquisitor rulebook as a sect of Inquisitors that think they can return the Emperor to "life", thus falls in line wiht the little discussed Inquisition War, and its subfactions within the Orders.

[Lord Dante]

Tasty - thats pretty cool.

hmm a meeting between him and Abbadon - thats interesting. Abbadon kills his own captains just for looking at him !

Cypher - "want to buy a sword?"
Abby - "its broken and my one kills even you on a 2+"
Cypher - "Ive been trying to flog this thing everywhere in the galaxy, you would think someone wants it..."
Abby - "Try the emperor of mankind - the daft old coot is blind deaf and dumb he wont notice a few scratchs"
Cypher - "you wanna ask him?"
Abby - "... *Stab*... dont look at me"

[Grim_Reaper47]

yah that meeting with abbaddon was a meeting about the aftermath of the story in (warhammer 40k:Angels of Darkness)a add on.Abaddon was asking if he was lying about being the voice I think of Couse Cypher said no.Then in the end of the story Abaddon threatens Cypher and Cypher just nods his head thinking "whatever abbaddon your a joke to me" then walks away into the darkness.then Abaddon drools over cadia the 13th time.Cypher was caught by the Dark Angels but he escaped like usually.There was also a rumor that Cypher tried to assinate abbadon but missed and ran away.

[Lord Dante]

he would have to shoot Abby in the back whilst the Chaos gods wernt looking to stand a chance.

[ThirdDanScoota]

He could have also stabbed. Not much the Chaos Gods could do unless they directly interfere. You're saying "why wouldnt they?" Well, they didnt help Horus much, rather, they abandonned him and fled from the Emperor's and Horus' presence.

[Robot Jesus]

[QUOTE=InquisitorZIM
As for the Illuminati, their true natures were revealed in the Inquisitor rulebook as a sect of Inquisitors that think they can return the Emperor to "life", thus falls in line wiht the little discussed Inquisition War, and its subfactions within the Orders.[/QUOTE]

my sourses state that the iliminati are a brotherhood of men who after being posesed by a deamon drove it out with there will alone. thus giving them a unique view of chaos. the are also allowed in the black library. the plan to kill the sensi when the emporers strenght fails allowing him to absorb there strenght and regain his full power.

[FerociousBeast]

/pet peeve rant on:
Damn it people! Stop saying Cypher is trying to redeem the Fallen! That might be true, but it just as easily might not be true. FACT: No one knows why Cypher's trying to make it to the Golden Throne. SPECULATION: He might be trying to redeem the Fallen. SPECULATION: He might be trying to kill the Emperor.

The mystery of Cypher is not solved. Please stop claiming that you did.
/pet peeve rant off

[MacBeth]

we dont know if he wants to be forgiven,we dont even know if he even has the lion blade,the reason we fear him the most is he could have the black blade of luther and is on his way to kill the emperor with it,or he may have the lion blade and he wants to have the angels fogiven.
he is a weird man,he helps the imperium and he helps destroy it,we know nothing of him,for this reason cypher is the best chaos character.

[Dante]

"hey look man all i need to know is one thing, where he is!"
*points flamer at random marine and makes bang bang noises*

:D (the quote is kinduv form aliens...)

ok...i really liek this cypher story, because Gw has left so manye holes and made so many...*kinda* contradictions! Does the name "cypher" mean anything?

[Lord Dante]

He could have also stabbed. Not much the Chaos Gods could do unless they directly interfere. You're saying "why wouldnt they?" Well, they didnt help Horus much, rather, they abandonned him and fled from the Emperor's and Horus' presence.

Seriously.

Cypher and Abby ... hmm who would u bet your life on?
the warmaster of Chaos or some random.

Abby hasnt survived over 10'000 years by being a dork.

As for Horus, they supported him with all thier power. the Emp won.
plain and simple.

[DoomKnights]

Actauly I have a novel *which was accecpted from GW* which states that luthers sword was found at one point be a chaplain and some DA. The novels called "Into the maelstrom" Good book recommend reading.

Double Post

The story in the books called "The black pearl" Here is a what the chaplian read on the sword. "To Luther, friend and comrade-in-arms. May your faith be your shield. Lej."
Ironicly enough to get to hold this sword he had to kill hundreds of eldar who were keeping it locked away heh.

Oh by the way he was an interrogator-chaplain.

[Iwata]

I remember that one. Good story, great ending.

[ThirdDanScoota]

Seriously.

Cypher and Abby ... hmm who would u bet your life on?
the warmaster of Chaos or some random.

Abby hasnt survived over 10'000 years by being a dork.

As for Horus, they supported him with all thier power. the Emp won.
plain and simple.

Actually, Chaos retreated as the Emperor was winning, not after he had won. Heres a direct Quote:

Driven by all the force of his rage and pain and hatred the Emperor wills Horus's death. He senses the forces of Chaos retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn. As they do so sanity returns to the Warmaster. The Emperor sees realisation of the atrocities he has committed flicker across Horus' face. Tears glisten there.

My point is, that if Cypher were to attack Abaddon while his back was turned, and do enough damage (with a C'tan Phase Sword, or Lion's Sword, or even with his plasma pistol, he could easily, but he has at least one of those), well, Chaos could do the same thing, and turn their backs.

EDIT: This quote is from WD161 - "Horus Heresy: Aboard Horus' battle barge".

[Blackraine]

Ok... here's the skinny on Cypher, pieced together from hundreds of similar posts and quotes from a great many white dwarves, most of which I had to take on faith because, well, I don't have them myself.


The Dark Angels Legion was the first Space Marine legion ever created, and Cypher was the first of the Dark Angels to be created by Lion El'Jonson's geneseed. As such, he's the purest of the non-primarch space marines. During the Horus Heresy, Lion El'Jonson had to leave Caliban on some sort of mission. Not only did it severely piss off Leman Russ, but it also made Luthor feel betrayed. No one knows what the mission was, but many think that it was in response to Magnus the Red's warnings of betrayel (before the Space Wolves went to Prospero to attempt to wipe out the Thousand Sons for heresy).

Magnus the Red had been conducting secret sorcery, and had been given a vision of Horus's heresy and of the Emperor's death, so he and his cabal of sorcerors cast a daemonic spell to send the message directly to the Emperor. He thought he was doing the right thing, but the Emperor doesn't exactly appreciate the taint of Chaos being injected directly into his brain. But anyway, the Emperor was aware of the visions, including those of his own death, and while he didn't want to believe him, it's thought that he dispatched Lion El'Jonson to contact the Watchers of the Dark and come up with a contingency plan.

So anyway, back to the Heresy. Horus commands the Dark Angels to go attack some planet on the other side of the galaxy, and without Lion El'Jonson around, Luthor has no choice but to follow the order. This is all part of Horus's plan to leave Terra mostly unguarded. When Luthor hears of the attack on Terra and the death of the Emperor (and yes, he did die. Or at least, he's clinically dead. Still living, but a vegetable at the moment) he blames Lion El'Jonson for leaving the chapter in their time of need (and more importantly, the Emperor's time of need), and succumbs to the power of Chaos in his anger. When Lion gets back, Luthor starts a fight with him. Lion El'Jonson is clearly more than a match for Luthor, but doesn't want to kill him because Luthor is his old friend and son kinda sorta. Finally Lion realises he's going to have to kill Luthor because Luthor's not going to stop, but finds that he can't because Luthor's protected by Chaos. Then Luthor strikes a fatal blow to Lion El'Jonson, and at that moment, chaos left him and he realised what he'd done (much like Horus in his moment of death). Cypher had watched the whole thing, but didn't know who to help, and just watched from the shadows instead. After all, he probably should have defended his primarch, but then again, he'd sworn an oath to obey his commander (Luther was the commander of the Dark Angels Legion). He ran to his dying primarchs side and Lion El'Jonson whispered something into his ear. When the other Dark Angels found Luther, he was curled up, babbling incoherently about the Watchers, and neither Cypher nor the Lion Sword were anywhere to be found.

Fast forward about 10000 years. During the black crusades Cypher was conscripted by Abbadon to start a rebellion and weaken the Imperium prior to his attack. Cypher took the job, knowing that doing so would in fact alert the Inquisition and Imperial Guard to danger and put them on the defensive so that they would be able to repel the invasion. This was that whole Voice of the Emperor thing. Sure enough, the Imperium strengthened its defenses due to the rise in "chaos activity". When Cypher returned to Abbadon for his payment, Abbadon at first refused to pay. Cypher said he'd done his job, and if things didn't work out the way Abbadon planned, that was Abbadon's fault, not his. Grudgingly, Abbadon coughed up the cash (or whatever it is that people pay each other with in the 41st millenium) and Cypher turned to walk out. As he left, Abbadon nodded to one of his personal bodyguards, who stepped toward Cypher, then fell down dead. Cypher resheathed his c'tan phase sword (NOT the sword on his back) and just kept on moving. Not even Abaddon would mess with him after that.

So... a few things.

1. The Fallen Angels are Chaos, but Cypher is not. Cypher is still loyal to the Imperium, and is in fact trying to get the Fallen to return to the Empire. Some of the Fallen are loyal to Cypher and the Emperor still, but are afraid to return while their brothers are hunting for them.

2. Cypher's mission is to get the Lion Sword reforged at Mars. Once he does so, Lion El'Jonson will return. Once Lion El'Jonson returns, he'll be able to enact the contingency plan he had made for the Emperor to revive him. The second part of the mission is to lay the Lion Sword at the Emperor's feet and recieve his forgiveness for the betrayal of the Fallen Angels.

3. Even the Inquisition acknowledges that Cypher could well be the best hope for the Imperium, as it is he and he alone who can complete the mission to ressurrect the Emperor. Cypher can't do so until the proper time, told to him by either Lion El'Jonson or the watchers (not sure which). The reason he's hiding among the Chaos is because he's actually safer there, posing as a heretic, than he is in the Imperium.

[-_Phoenix_-]

Blackraine, thats a mix of official fluff, educated guesses amd outright wrongness. I'll go through it step by step, which is difficult without omnislashing (stupid forum rules :) ).

- Cypher may well be the first SM created with Lion El'Johnson's (hereby referred to as ELJ) geneseed. Nothing concrete re: this though AFAIK. Its not an important point either way really.

- The entire next section is bollocks TBH :) ELJ left Caliban to lead the DAs in the crusades. Luther was left in charge of Caliban's defence with a contingent of DAs. Over time Luther resented ELJ grabbing all the glory and action whilst he was left nursemaiding Caliban. It was this resentment which the chaos gods teased into jealousy, then anger and rebellion. He swayed the DAs on Caliban to the same way of thinking. It was these DAs who became the Fallen. The DAs and ELJ are crusading far away from Terra when Horus attacks it, Luther doesn't leave Caliban at any point at all. Horus dies, Emperor goes into Golden Throne, ELJ returns to Caliban, is attacked by the DAs and Luther and finally confronts Luther. I've of course paraphrased this from memory but its in black and white in both the 2nd and 3rd edition codexes

- The confrontation between Luther and ELJ goes as you've written. Cypher may well have been involved as you say, he is likely to be carrying ELJ's sword, thus placing him at the scene so to speak :)

- Last paragraph I can't comment about, i've not read it TBH.

Your final points :

1. Yup, totally true.
2. Complete conjecture. I don't see how the Lion Sword being reforged would bring ELJ back, especially as we don't even know if its broken :P I also don't understand your second sentence. Do you mean ELJ will be revived by Cypher, and in turn ELJ will revive the Emperor ?
3. Even more conjecture, and there a very few within the inquistion who know of the Fallen and their and Luther's betrayal. I agree though hes probably best off staying away from the Imperium.

[G-Prime]

Just a little tidbit. I think I've read somewhere that the inspiration for Cypher's character can be found here: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058461/

He's basically a character who nobody really knows, either by name or motivation, with incredible luck, and who is determined to carry out his personal mission (or vendetta) regardless of what it costs him or others.

[FerociousBeast]

Well, Phoenix, you beat me to it. Good job, except for your reply to point number one. Point one is commonly held to be true by a large percentage of those interested in the Fallen, but wherever official fluff mentions Cypher, it always says that his motivations and loyalties are ultimately unknown.

I've seen many unofficial sources of fluff (like fan fiction, most of it crappy :)) on the internet which say Cypher is loyal to the Emperor, so I think that's why everyone believes it to be true.

Remember that Cypher's patron is an unknown Chaos god. This could mean that the god is A) one of the four major ones (of the four, most likely Tzeentch in my opinion); B) a completely new god with designs of its own; or C) the Emperor. Three is of course very controversial, since many would say that the Emperor is not a Chaos god. But he is an extremely powerful warp entity, so that could be what is meant.

Some, and some on this thread too, claim that there is another option: D) Lion El'Jonson. But I think this is incredibly unlikely. For one thing, as far as we know, the Lion's in a coma right now, and for another the Lion was never a powerful enough psyker (if a psyker at all, not sure about that) to be able to do the kinds of things Cypher's patron does. Plus, if the Lion is an active presence in the galaxy today, why would he be working through one of the Fallen, rather than through his beloved Dark Angels? This clearly doesn't make sense.

My personal belief is that his patron god is Tzeentch, since Cypher's actions are very manipulative and scheme-heavy and he has been living for ten thousand years, a clear mark of a follower of Chaos. Plus, who else but the god of magic could whisk Cypher away whenever he's threatened?

[lschimmy11]

i think cypher is johnson i mean he wants the fallen to repent he has his sword

[Voyager]

And for a complete case of conjecture based off of a complete lack of knowledge of the official fluf, maybe Cypher's guardian is the Emperor.

Someone made a comment in another thread to the effect that all indications are that the Emperor is long dead, and that the Astronomicon beacon is just being put out by the Golden Throne being fed psykers, but that that was "to cynical for even the Warhammer 40,000 universe."

But let's see what might happen if we run with this...

From what I understand the good Emperor wasn't really the dogmatic type. In fact, I rather strongly suspect that the modern Inquisition would probably burn him at the stake if they ran into him as anything less than the full Imperial Personage.

Now, with his body dead, and his spirit roaming, and hiding, in the warp, with the general inter-relationship between space and the warp, it could be quite handy to be able to have some direct influence on realspace. What better way than through an enigmatic Space Marine?

Sure, coming back as the Emperor would grant him some power over millions of worlds, but the Imperium clearly goes on without him leading them, so would that truely be the most effective path for him? If he has truely found a way to unlock himself from that beacon, then his contral purpose as the Emperor is ended.

As the enigmatic wanderer he is free to go where he feels he would be most valuable, without arousing the sort of attention that the Emperor god would, and free to pull the strings of the universe in darkenss and shadow, where even the gods of Chaos do not see. When the Emperor moves, the galaxy watches. When Cypher moves, the galaxy doesn't care.

In fact, I wonder if there ever truely was a "Cypher". It seems very convenient that a character destined to become an enigma would have had such a name before they became so (that, or sloppy writing, but a true writer never makes mistakes; they make plot twists).

Do we have reasonable evidence that there actually was a space marine by that name, and that he was really at those battles, or is there enough leeway in the story that the character could have had his history somewhat invented?

Of course, even if the character's history is true, there's the possibility that the original Cypher has been dead for eons, and that the Emperor has stepped in and...borrowed...the name for a while.

And, as for why the Emperor would be trying to reach the Golden Throne disguised as Cypher, who says he really is? If it is the Emperor, I fully expect wheels within wheels within wheels.

Of course it is more than likely it is something completely different, but it's fun to speculate.

Harry Voyager

[FerociousBeast]

Cypher has a model and is a character in stories. And if the Emperor is trying to pull the strings behind the scenes to enact his will, he's doing a pretty piss-poor job of it. The Imperium's best hope is for the Emperor to come back and lead in the flesh once again. That's the only way they'll get back on top.

As for the "good Emperor", he is and was just as dogmatic as the Space Marines, though perhaps not as much as the Inquisition. Perhaps. But being as xenophobic and unmerciful as a Space Marine ain't munchin' marshmallows either.

[Athair]

I liked the short story where Cypher stabbed Abbadons lacky (don't care if it didn't happen). I think Cypher exists, as he has a past, old 'acquaintances', etc.
I personally like the theory that Cypher is trying to get to the Emporer. People say that the best thing for him to do is just die. What if he can't? From my understanding he stopped talking a long time ago, so couldn't say it that way. Plus, who would he tell? The High Lords of Terra. What happens if he is ressurected? The HLs lose much of their power. So the Emporer hooks up with Cypher soon after the Horus Heresy, in case anything like this happens. As it did happen, Cypher's job is to eventually get to the Throne Room and unplug the Golden Throne. As he can't get their yet, he's just doing tidbits on the way (sliding around, causing mischief which is generally pro-Emporer, vanishing away from the clutches of the DA :D ). Makes sense to me...
Just my two cents. Please don't butcher it too badly... :D

[FerociousBeast]

The Emperor himself directed the building of the Golden Throne.

[Voyager]

How exactly is the Emperor leading them in the flesh going to put the Imperium back on top again? Even in an absolute monarchy, there is so much bureaucracy required just to keep things running that no emperor can exert more than very basic controls over it. It is just to big, and to complex for a single person to control to any real degree.

Honestly, the Imperium is better off with their Emperor as a mute god to worship. In that form, they believe they are being ruled by an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent deity, which is considerably more motivating than being ruled by a fallible man. They believe that he is with them always, seeing and judging them according to their acts and desires, and preparing their reward for their bravery and faith, even when noone else sees.

If he returns in the flesh, that would destroy all of that. Suddenly the Emperor would be at a single place, nolonger all seeing, no longer all knowing. No longer could one believe that he was at their should when they fight on some desolate world that noone knows of, or has ever heard of. Their god would be just a man, and a fallible one at that. In the long run, it would destroy human morale.

Harry Voyager

[FerociousBeast]

The Imperium reached its greatest height under the leadership of the Emperor and his Great Crusade. If nothing changes, the Imperium will stay on its present course: complete and utter destruction.

[Ridinghood]

oh corse no1 has suggested that he could be connected with the eldar in some way?
i mean they do pretty random things so they can save them selfs 100s of years in the future, perhaps he has a connection with a farseer in some way & his randomness is because of this, alough him having some kind of future seeing abality & not having connections with eldar is also possible.

i serious doubt this but u never know...

[malekith28]

Cypher is not Luther. If you read the Index Astartes Article on the Dark Angels, you'll find that Luther is kept hidden within the rock constantly babbling," One day the Watchers in the Dark will return Jonson, and he will forgive Luther for his sins". Sorry if that isn't an exact quote, but you get the point. Cypher is probably the key to bringing back the loyal Primarchs and giving the Emperor a new body. As for Cypher being a Fallen Angel, this is a fact. But it remains unclear whether or not he is a devout follower of Chaos, or just a wild card thrown into the mix. I think he knows alot more than he lets on, and he is following some prophecy, and playing both the Imperium and Chaos according to fulfilling the prophecy. During the EoT campaign, Cypher was fixated on Caliban, though his motives were never really made clear, considering Caliban is just basically an asteroid field. Will we ever find out the truth about Cypher? None know besides GW, until then we really only have speculation, which is what makes Cypher the enigma he is.

[Spacewolf]

Luther is imprisoned in the deepest bowels of the rock. There is a story in the dark angels codex of him being interrogated by either Asmodai or Azrael. Luther is not Cypher.


This is very true, but as you know with 40k things can and do change. I even have to admit it does sound like Luther, even though what you say is true.

Double Post



From what I understand the good Emperor wasn't really the dogmatic type. In fact, I rather strongly suspect that the modern Inquisition would probably burn him at the stake if they ran into him as anything less than the full Imperial Personage.


Not true he is very Dogmatic and very unflexable. Just look at the Thousand Sons. He warned them once not to dwell in the whole magic thing (psyker if you will). When they used their abilities to warn the Emperor of Horus's decpetion he sent the Space Wolves to erradicate them.

[theshadowduke]

oh corse no1 has suggested that he could be connected with the eldar in some way?
i mean they do pretty random things so they can save them selfs 100s of years in the future, perhaps he has a connection with a farseer in some way & his randomness is because of this, alough him having some kind of future seeing abality & not having connections with eldar is also possible.

i serious doubt this but u never know...

Its entirely possible that cypher was a librarian for the DA, that acheved alpha level abilities.

[FerociousBeast]

Except that his rules include no psychic abilities whatsoever on the table top.

[ThirdDanScoota]

Perhaps they would be too powerful if he did in TT? Just because the TT doesnt have it, doesnt mean that its not in the fluff. Remember, TT is also about balance, and if they did give Cypher such psychic abilities, they would need to seriously beef his points up.

EDIT: Oh yeah! By the way, notice how this is the FLUFF forum? TT has nothing to do with it, so leave it out of this one.

[FerociousBeast]

OK, so they would need to beef up his points . . where's the problem?

[-_Phoenix_-]

I'd agree with Ferocious here. We know this is the background forum, but I see no problem with drawing background conclusions based on the TT game.

In this case I don't see how you could possibly argue he has psychic powers. Hes never been described as such, never exhibited any powers and doesn't have any on the TT.

I mean, if I were to say Dante or Asurmen had psychic powers, you give me a strange look wouldn't you ?

[ThirdDanScoota]

Perhaps he was using his psychic abilities to escape like he always does. Remember THAT little rule? All any of us can do is speculate though, after all, thats part of what this forum is all about! I mean, its great that people are comming up with stuff like this, as not only does it give us something to talk about, but its also exploring the 40k Universe and its always great to make up your own theories and share them with others. Its part of what keeps this forum going.

EDIT: Thing is, its Cypher's mystery that allows us to make up such theories, but with someone like Dante, we KNOW almost for certain that he doesnt have psychic abilities. Cypher is just too mysterious to say ANYTHING for certain, thats the great thing about him.

[-_Phoenix_-]

It specifically says in the 2nd Ed Chaos Codex its a warp entity who isn't one of the four gods who saves him, not Cypher himself.

I agree discussion about fluff is fun and interesting, but theres different ways of going about it.Theres knowing fluff for a fact, speculating about fluff (educated guesses) and making fluff up from thin air. We know Cypher is heading towards Terra, we know hes one of the fallen. We can speculate as to why he is heading to Terra, we can speculate as to whether he carries the Lion Sword. I can make up the fact he is a psyker :)

[ThirdDanScoota]

Hmmmm... You must also remember though, not all of us have these old Codecies, but shouldnt be hammered for making up a theory that, as a fact, isnt true as i now know. I reckon its great that it was brought up though.

[-_Phoenix_-]

I'm not hammering, just trying emphasise things. There was a smily there you know ? :)

[ThirdDanScoota]

I know, just mainly a figure of speech. What i'm saying is, everyone here has a right to make up theories and share them with everyone, just because many of them dont have anywhere near as much knowledge as others doesnt mean that they cant join in. Something people should remember.

[Pryocx]

It has be written in prior posts that Cyper might have something to do with the watchers in the dark. Okay, the rules state that watchers in the dark have mystical psychic powers which prevents them from 'any' form of harm... thats a pretty nasty power, in effect it would mean that even when blasted by the chaos destroyer of worlds, they would survive, right?
For me thats the power of some hidden warp entity, since psychic powers are drawn from the warp.
My point is that the entity which saves Cyper might have something (alot) to do with the watchers in the dark...

Btw, there is no rule that states that all warp entities have to be evil, just that the four major powers of chaos known to man, is.
There might just be a entity that se good things bourn from the rebirth of the emperor, might even have something to so with the Necrons, since they are the nemesis of the warp..?

[FerociousBeast]

I'm not hammering, just trying emphasise things. There was a smily there you know ? :)

Ah, you've gotta love the smiley :)

:) = pillow tied around hammer

[ThirdDanScoota]

Its entirely possible that cypher was a librarian for the DA, that acheved alpha level abilities.

Ok FerociousBeast, and Phoenix, this is something we all overlooked. Does everyone remember what an Alpha-Level Psyker is? If you have the 4th ED Rulebook, theres no exuse. If say this was true, it WOULD be unbalanced having ANY model as an Alpha-Level Psyker. Why? Heres a quote from the Rulebook:

"Perhaps the most dangerous human in the galaxy is an untrained psyker. If they are not controlled or purged, the erratic and awesome forces they can unwittingly unleash may destroy whole settlements or even worlds. Those cursed with an incredible level of psychic talent are codified by the Black Ships of the Inquisition as Alpha-Level - the highest category a human psyker can reach. Alpha-Level psykers can turn a man inside-out with a glance. A mere flick of a wrist can snap a Battle Titan in two, or a muttered syllable turn an enemy army apon itself in a frenzy of bloodlust. With such godlike power at their disposal, it is small wonder that Alpha-Level psykers are amongst the most dreaded of foes that the Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition must face.

The soul of one with such power burns like a supernova within the Emperyean, and all too frequently the denizens of the Warp flock to the uncontrolled mind like scavengers to a corpse, pushing through the veil into the mind of their prey. Such is the price of power, for the Warp does not give its gifts freely."

As you can see, unless we like having thousand points (or several thousand) characters running around like in Fantasy Battles, simply "bumping his points up" will not be acceptable.

[-_Phoenix_-]

I agree totally. Properly represented, Alpha level psykers can't reasonably be fielded in 40K. For instance, at a guess from the description i'd say the Emperor is approaching or at Alpha level, and would be the only one disciplined and trained to use his powers properly. I don't think 'theshadowduke' fully realises what an Alpha psyker is capable off, or he'd never suggest Cypher was one.

Theres not one iota of evidence Cypher is a psyker, never mind an Alpha one. Also I strongly got the impression they are so powerful they can't control their power fully anyway. If they could they'd be appearing in SM and GK armies.

BTW, have Alpha level psykers been mentioned as such before the 4th Ed rulebook ? I can't remember them before it at all.

[Imrix]

Ok, this is how I see the whole Cypher situation, just my two pence, nothing more but how I saw it.

Lion El'johnson takes half the chapter off to fight in... section oh HH I beleive, other half is rather peeved (To say the least) that they aren't getting to fight, Luther gets this most and Chaos claims him, he convinces the rest of the chapter in his own perverse ways and when the Lion gets back the fortress world of Caliban lets rip with the massive guns on the Lion's fleet, Lion returns fire and has enough firepower that his fleet is slowly ripping the entire planet apart.

However, the Lion wants to know whats going on, cue elite boarding action of the Lion, and his best soldiers/mates/drinking partnars drop onto the fortress and the Lion himself confronts Luther who is pretty obviously posessed or close.

Lion beats Luther but doesn't actually kill him (He ends up being entombed on the ruins of Caliban and interrogated every now and then). then Cypher, who had heard about Luther and has been watching the whole thing, is noticed by the Lion who is NOT dying, Cypher steps forward and the Lion gives Cypher the Lion Sword and entrusts him with a mission, which is to redeem the fallen, apparantly long amount of hardship but he WILL suceed in the end, what the sucess is I don't have the foggiest, then Cypher just falls asleep, he sleeps for an age in the warp and dreams about weird stuff, mostly the emperor sending him psychic messages, he wakes up and sets about gathering the fallen.

The Lion is somewhere inside the ruins of Caliban and since the place has an almost infinite amount of tunnels it could take millenia or longer for the Dark Angels (Or anybody else) to find him.

That's what I can peice together from a few sources and my own mind.

[FerociousBeast]

I know exactly where you got the above fourth paragraph. And it is, purely and simply, fan fiction. Not a bit of officiality about it. That's also the same bit of fan fiction which claims that Cypher fucked a Sister of Battle, and their child is now a loyal Blood Angel, with some kind of Muslim name, who is the one writing the account. It is pure fantasy.

Also, it wasn't half of the chapter left behind. It was probably more like one fifth to one tenth. It was only a garrison force.

Everything else is basically accurate, more or less.

Double Post

To ThirdDanScoota:

If I read your post aright, you seem to be implying that Cypher could be an alpha class psyker, even though he has no psyker powers in the game, because if he were, GW would not realistically be able to implement his incredibly powerful psyker abilities. Therefore, the fact that he has no psychic rules does not rule out the possibility that he is still an alpha class psyker.

If you did mean this, this just does not make sense. It does not begin to approach feasibility. Let me draw out an equivalent analogy: GW really wants to put the Warlord Titan into the non-epic 40K table top. However they realize that the Titan is so ridiculously powerful that doing so would cost thousands of points and would ensure victory for the Titan's player. So they solve their problem by saying, "OK, guys, let's shrink the Warlord down to the TT equivalent of ten feet tall, take away all of his big guns and arm him instead with a storm bolter. This way we could offer him for 100 pts, and it won't cause an imbalance! Whew, I thought that would be a corker!"

Obviously, the probability of this scenario occuring, like that of Cypher being an alpha class psyker, nears the impossible.

[Strybjorn]

Wouldn't it be something if the watchers turned out to be some sore of demon? Sorry, thought just popped in my mind and had to spit it out. Will go back to my space wolves section now. *wanders off drinking ale and farting*


:duck:

[ThirdDanScoota]

FerociousBeast, you arent grasping the entirity of what psykers are. They dont have to be able to throw fireballs at enemies to be a psyker. The power could be represented in a different way, as there are many ways to manipulate the Warp, but either way i'm simply pointing out what a previous poster said. Also, if you think about it Alpha-Level psykers would be impossible to place in the TT - "able to snap a Battle Titan in half". Unless we all like playing 16000pts games, thats not going to happen.

Anyway, the psyker theory that was brought up was already proven wrong anyway.

[killakiddz]

Just a few points realised after re-reading the 2nd Ed Chaos Codex
- Its unknown whether Cypher is even his real name.
-"Cypher is protected by a Chaos power , though nobody knows exactly who or what this power is (it does not appear to be one of the four major gods)" - exact quote.
-"the occasional glimpse of the dark green power armour beneath his robes means that there can be no doubt that Cypher is one of the fallen" - odd, I always understood that the Dark Angels originally wore Black armour (as stated in the Codex Imperialis, I believe) but at some point after the Heresy, repainted most of the Chapters Armour Dark Green - (the only mention of this I could find in Codex;AoD was, quote; "This (the Angels of Vengeance) Chapter has retained the traditional Black armour of the orinal Dark Angels Legion..." would this then not mean that Cypher's armour should be black also? or did he repaint his armour too, to keep in with the current fashion?
-Both Luther *and* Lion El'Johnson are in the Rock - Luther is Captive in a cell, still babbling that "the primarch had been carried away by the Watchers in the Dark and that one day he would return to forgive Luther..." As regards to LeJ, it is stated that "only one person in the entire universe knows (that Lion El Johnson lies sleeping in a secluded, unreachable chamber within the rock, watched over by the Watchers in the Dark) - the emperor himself." (Taken From Codex;Angels of Death).
If anyone has any questions about Codex;Angels Of Death, Chaos or Ultramarines, post them here as I have all three at my and your disposal :D

[Flancen]

well, does it say any thing about sangy in AoD codex?

[killakiddz]

plenty, but thats off topic - post any questions in a new thread and I'll be happy to answer them :D

[Joshmaul]

If it's Sangy as in Sanguinius - he's dead. Period.

-J.

[Inquisition]

...kinda side tracked here...

Ok.. heres the deal with cypher. He needs to get the sword of Lion El to the Rock (Dark angles chapter space ship...actualy its a floating piece of their homeworld) There he must go to the place where the sword was forged in order to reforge the brocken blade. If he does so it is rumored that Lion El will return (note there was not fact that he died.. only that he was wounded and caried away by the wachers of the dark). If he returns he can forgive all fallen dark angels and the chapter would be reunited and the hunt for all fallen would end.

Now to the Illuminati. They are a group of inquisitors or powerfull officials that have been on the verge of heresy but have returned to the emperors light. In order to punish themselves they take a even more radical aproach than herasy and claim that the everyone must die to save the emperor (well not exactly... qoute: "To many, the Illuminati are mad, scarred and twisted by their experiences, brought to a level of bitter cynicism that has no equal. The Illuminati see themselves in a different light. They have become the ultimate realists, aware of the terrible nature of the universe they inhabit. They have survived Chaos, and achieved a balance that eluded the Eldar. They have mastered the Chaos within themselves and now oppose Chaos in the broader universe." unqoute.).

They are individuals that are very cynical and cannot accept any hope but take things at their worst angles. They claim to be the only hope for mankind, from the same catastrophy that destroyed the Eldar.

Quote : At the moment the Emperor's will breaks, the Illuminati will offer up the remaining Sensei in a sacrifice to the Golden Throne of Earth. The Emperor and the Sensei will be united, in just the same manner as the Emperor has absorbed countless psykers. The new, evolved Sensei-Emperor, father and sons, will arise to protect and lead Mankind. Such is the plan of the Illuminati.

This has nothing to do with cypher. He isnt a illuminati or a star child but a fallen dark angel and since he sold his sould to chaos during the hersey he is everliving, even if he claims to have a honorable cause. And since hes the prime target of the dark angel chapter and their chapters alike, he can only resort to heretical methods to reach his goal.

[Yo-jim-bo]

Y'know, I care a lot less about all this stuff since the C'tan were introduced. Even if the Emperor returns his Empire is doomed. Even the Old ones coudn't beat the C'tan.

On a related note, the Old Ones were incredibly powerful psykers, right? So how would the Emperor (and Sangy, Magnus and his other psychic primarchs) compare to them? Or for that mattter to some of the great Eldar farseers.

[Flancen]

well, the emperor will probably be VERY angry when he wakes up and sees how his imperium have been doing in his name:p

[Vendetta]

The Emperor is on par with the chaos gods on a psyker level I belive. He's like super jesus after all.

[Inquisition]

yeah the emperor is uber-powerfull :P. The old ones were not psykers but they were the ones that discovered the warp and used it against the c'tan. They banished many of their most powerfull weapons to the war so they couldnt use them ever again. The C'tan destroyed themselves in the end anyway. Now they are not as powerfull (only 4 of them left) But they are still a huge threat. One must think that the c'tan will kill everything (which means that they have to go through the orks, taranids, chaos, tau..etc etc) humans are a huge empire and they can and would be able to stand against the c'tans actions...

[blacksun]

the choas entity protecting cypeher couldent that just be a warp entity?? cuz not all warp entitys are bad. for instance the sensai draws their powers from a good warp entity, think it was the starchild. and the sensai's powers are only good power.. they cat trow fireballs and stuff cuz to doo that u need to draw power from the "bad" warp

[raven7399]

In response to some post about what the Emperor would do to the Imperium when re-awakened. Some people seen to believe nothing but what we have is a Living God who has been worshipped for millenia by people all over the Imperium. Now he is alive and fighting in campaings. Think about it, for all of you who don't know too much about 40k think in terms of DoW, constant morale boost.

[Fuyutski]

Just a question which is a tad sidetrack to the thread, but where can one find the Codex Angels of Darkness?

[killakiddz]

Codex;Angels of *Death* is OOP and only available second hand - try ebay.

[Brother Cypher]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

[Kungfudwarf]

I read alot, and my brain hurts....but from what ive read on all the cypher facts, both GW sanctiond ive come to some conclusions... and some of you have Far to many....wild storys....just wow

Cypher is not know to be his real name...but it is what he is known as.

Cypher is a member of the fallen angels, there is no doubt about it, his armor proves as much so. He once held a Citan Phase Knife but lost it in a battle with a Citan at a rune on a planet where part of Caliban crashed. The sword on his back MAY be a part of the lion sword in which he attempts to either bring to Mars or to the emperor himself... either way Cypher is headed twards earth....every time they find him he is closer to earth...

As for the Fallen...most of them, being a good 95 percent are NOT chaos. They are infact REAL space marines.

My sugestion is to Read through the GW book: The Angels of Darkness....it brings to light the truth of the fallen angels, and who Cypher, and the rest truly Are...what REALY happened on Caliban, from the mouth of one who was there. and the events that happen 5 years or so after his confession that only prove his point even more...

[SGM_Azrael]

cypher is at the top of our list in the book.
why would a servent of the chaos gods dress up in dark angel power armor and there robes?plus look at his back pack.
nothing is truly known about the man,we dont even know if he carrys the lion blade or luthers black blade.
He was originally a DA, even before the Emperor found Johnson. But was tricked by Luther along with the other DAs on Caliban into thinking that the Emperor and the Lion had turned their backs on them, Luther's treachery has damned the DA to seeking out the Fallen 'across time and space' to wipe away the stain on their honour. They believe that the Emperor will never forgive them while the Fallen exist.

Read Codex Angels of Death and Angels of Darkness for more info, as well as more questions but thats...another story.

Well technically its the same one but i just thought of the Never Ending Story quote and had to put it in.

I believe it is the Lion Sword as it is detailed as such in the old CSM codex (the £8 one).

[FerociousBeast]

Hey, haven't read Angel of Darkness, but I heard that it conflicts with the 2nd ed DA codex. True?

[Capt.Shrike]

Although he allegiance with Chaos, but he can change his "sideways" for his last commitment.

[SGM_Azrael]

Hey, haven't read Angel of Darkness, but I heard that it conflicts with the 2nd ed DA codex. True?

Not exactly. It answers some questions, but also raises new ones. Particularly on the subject of Johnson's LOYALTY! :argh:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/bookdetail.asp?id=197


Although he allegiance with Chaos, but he can change his "sideways" for his last commitment.
I'm sorry, could you explain? I didn't understand you.

[Capt.Shrike]

He may be side with Chaos at the moment or maybe he could betray them.

[Brother Cypher]

Foolish brother-marines,

Whoever the Lion serves now, the only issue of real importance is how close I am to Terra.

I have the Sword, and neither you loyalist scum nor the Lion will prevent me from fulfilling my destiny.

See you soon...

[MacBeth]

the lion is loyal,astelan was a crazed luntic who hated the lion,he just wanted the lion to seem unloyal,cause what he says causes problems with the fluff,he said that the lion was just watching the battle watching to see who would come out the victor,the truth is that he and russ were racing to terra.

[SGM_Azrael]

the truth is that he and russ were racing to terra

Yeah but stuff happened before that. I cant remember exactly but at one point they scoured a place full of chaos minions and found an orb that the leader had used to confound them, looking into it they saw the Emperors plight. Then they enterd the warp at full tilt but came to a space station overrun with daemons. Russ wanted to scour the place where as Johnson wanted to head straight for Terra (this following bit is what Astelan is referrring to) Johnson gave up arguing and helped Russ. After this they sped to Terra but arrived too late. Their Emperor all but slain by Horus and Sanguinius dead in Dorn's arms.

Perhaps these events aren't in the right order as i recount them but the places and things ae correct.

[MacBeth]

they came across a escape pod with someone inside,he claimed that a forge world was taken over by chaos,russ wanted to rush in and destroy them,jonson wanted to head to terra,why'll they started another fist fight a dark angel chaplain was watching the man they rescued,he started to smile and chaos or something was takeing control over him,the chaplain shot the man and the two primarchs stoped fighting and they attacked the chaos on the world,the people that remained were so thankful that they created the leman russ tank.

[Yggdrasil]

Parent post is dead wrong.

The illuminati are humans, the Watchers are aliens, and their fluff seems to have fallen by the wayside anyway

Cypher is DEFINITELY a Fallen Angel

GW probably doesn't even know the answer to their own riddles at this point. It is stated GW practice to slip in mysteries often to ensure they have plenty of plots open to expand upon.