Just Face It.

[FatalTheRabbit]

Space marines suck. The other races are better its plain and simple.

Chaos are better.
Ork are better.
Eldar are better.

Space marines for some reason are so much less than the other races. When it comes to the other races you hardly hear "why is this unit so weak", "i cant beat this army", or similar problems.

Were they powerful in the beta or something? so much that they were nerfed to nothing?

[BlacksandTLSC]

It all comes down to personal preference and skill.

Marines rock, used properly.
CSM I think are a bit better, but I PREFER SM.

[FatalTheRabbit]

With decent micro the eldar mop the floor with the space marines.

Frankly I think it's because the marines were designed to be the 'easy' race to play so relic made them only mediocre in the hands of everyone. Newbie or not. The difference about the other races is that they may be difficult to use for a newbie but they overshadow the SM hugely in the hands of a skillful palyer.

...and the advantages Chaos has over space marines go without saying.

[smegzor]

I don't have any problems with them.. like Black said it comes down to how you play them!

[FatalTheRabbit]

I don't have any problems with them.. like Black said it comes down to how you play them!


I suppose you could argue that against ork and eldar...but what can you say against Choas?

All of their units equal or surpass space marines.

[Law_1620]

Marines rock. you just have to manage your squads well and make sure you have good tank or dread support.

Plus Orbital Strike kicks ass

[FoolsFolly]

SM are a strong race - learn how to use them before saying they suck! Or just learn a CIV which you find doesn't "suck"

[Buzz_NL]

The strenght of the space marines is that they are flexibel, what you need to do with space marines is keep the presure on your opponent all the time(aka keep testing his defenses destroying of capturing Strat points) and most important use the right tool for the right job.

Tip: use dreads

[Draken2034]

ive actually never lost with them. im always SM and no-ones ever actually killed me. even chaos. i usually have a full squad of marines before chaos has a full cultist.

[101ST_Belial]

they only way any of thouse army will beat you is if they.
1) Mount up a bigger army than you.
2) you are poorly deffended.

[Perp]

I must agree with the majority, Space Marines are very balanced. Last night I went 6 of 5 and only lost to Eldars. Hopefully a good anti- Eldar strat can be found. They went through A LOT of beta testing to make sure that every army was balanced- and they seem to have done a good job. Space Marines maybe the "noob" race, but that doesn't mean they are to be underestimated... They just have to be played right.

[Jazhuis]

SM vs. Chaos: one word. Morale. Get flamers, sniper rifles, and artillery. Break them. Chaos can't rally, and there's nothing worse as a Chaos player than seeing your PSM squads broken. Remember that there are TWO kinds of effective damage you can do.

[Vampyre]

Dreads have definately been nerfed since the Beta. I suspect they're now the worst of the walkers rather than the best.

[Dooks Dizzo]

Dreads have definately been nerfed since the Beta. I suspect they're now the worst of the walkers rather than the best.

Says who?

I ran a five dread spearhead against someone the other day and cleaned the floor with them. Everyone freaks out when they see them and focus's all fire power. Sure they god down but it takes a few and in the interem I have unloaded nearly 1 million rockets into their base and troops.

SM's are fine. And if you think no one else bitches look around. I read a thread recently about how Chaos was the weakest race.

And you hear a lot about Orks and Eldar too.

What I think happens is someone plays with them like twice, loses badly and decides they suck. Goes for all races.

[Svensta]

I have to just agree with the consensus. Defilers are HARDLY a match for Dreds, being that they are really the only versatile all-around armor that Chaos has. Massed ork infantry can bring down defilers, whereas Dreds just keep on slaughtering. I will say SM/CSM assault squads are a wash, and CSM's have a leg up on SM's. The FC is superior to the CL (better abilities and in NUMEROUS beta 1v1 testings, simply superior in direct combat) The Lib/CS is about equal (I prefer the Lib, but see no real advantage either way) Predators match, and I would GLADLY take Termmies and Land Raiders over the BT any scenario of the week. Hell, both sides even have Rhinos.

This hands-down 'chaos is superior' attitude sounds more accurately like you were bested soundly by a better tactician/microer.

[hiteche5]

Dreads have definately been nerfed since the Beta. I suspect they're now the worst of the walkers rather than the best.


Dread vs Kan = Dread
Dread vs Defiler = Dread

Dreads will also take alot of rocket punishment from Orks due to their inacurracy and low power if not upgraded, Hellfire Dreads mow down Eldars like no tommorrow. And don't forget speed wise it is the fastest. The only thing I'm not sure about is the Eldar walker.

Admitedly the problem I have with the SM dread is it's footprint. It just seems to have a problem navigating around stuff.

But this is slightly off-topic. I think SM suffers from jack-of-all trades. They don't do anything one thing particularly well. So it seems like you're always bouncing around countering all the other races specialty where that is the SM specialty...they can counter anything thrown at them...if you know what's coming.

[Deadeye]

They are all about the same really. Each race has a really powerful start available, and if you use it well, things end up pretty close. Eldar seem to have a bit of an advantage in terms of early troop availabilty, but I suspect that will get evened out whether through strats or slight nerfs. A FC two squad two scout start with some weapon upgrades is damn hard to deal with.

[Kemuel]

I think the main thing that people don't like about SM is that they can't generally get away with doing on massive focused tactic. With the SM, you have to use every aspect of their versatility to it's full potential. In fact, i think that that reason makes the SM just as capable as being considered and "expert" army, because it relies so much on countering and such. Plus, deep striking and orbital bombardment are a tactical gift straight from the Emperor himself. Don't listen to the foul whispers of the dark gods! Be faithful, my brothers!

[Br33zE]

I play SM won my first 3 game's (Give it that it must have been the people i was playing's first time as they weren't upgrading or anything, all though it was my first online game i'd played Skirmish a bit), but my next 3 game's 2 against Eldar, 1 against another Ork, i lost right at the start.

The other player just had a lot more men than me when we first met, i had 2 tac sqaud's (Maximum ammount of men in each but no other upgrade's) 1 FC, 2 scout's but when i met the eldar force in the middle of the map for the first battle they just destroyed me, seemed to have a lot more men, then i didn't have enough point's to get anything other than 1 tac sqaud and by that time Eldar had got pretty much all the Map and the countdown started, leaving me with no requistion and 1 tac sqaud for 6 min's till the game ended.

Any idea's ??

[Akathrielah]

Dread vs Kan = Dread
Dread vs Defiler = Dread


Are we playing the same game here?, Kans will rip a dreadnought apart in CC, fully upgraded Kan has more HP if I remember right, 4100 or something AND it does more damage in CC.

Defiler will lose in CC with a dreadnought, but the versatility of it makes it akin to a Dreadnought + Whirlwind in 1.

SM are strong IMO until tier 3, while the Eldar, Chaos and Ork get to watch their "uber" units smash a hole in your defense/offense, you get to watch your terminators get waxed by a pair of defilers or the equivalent.

[Bl00d_R4VenS]

YOUR BLASPHEMY WILL NOT BE TOLERATED! If u question the might of adeptus astartes feel free to challenge me...

[VidiVici]

A
SM are strong IMO until tier 3, while the Eldar, Chaos and Ork get to watch their "uber" units smash a hole in your defense/offense, you get to watch your terminators get waxed by a pair of defilers or the equivalent.

WHAAAAA???

Eldar/Chaos: yes they have ubers but they are DEMONS and FC/LIB combo will always beat them given the propper support.

ORKS: yes they have squiggy but it is just 1 unit and your preds/land raiders are far better then the looted tank.

As for termies it is NOT a uber unit they are elite. 2 sqads of reg termies will schread all orck forces appart. The only thing an ork can put up against them are the MORE EXPENSIVE nobs

[hiteche5]

Are we playing the same game here?, Kans will rip a dreadnought apart in CC, fully upgraded Kan has more HP if I remember right, 4100 or something AND it does more damage in CC.

Defiler will lose in CC with a dreadnought, but the versatility of it makes it akin to a Dreadnought + Whirlwind in 1.

SM are strong IMO until tier 3, while the Eldar, Chaos and Ork get to watch their "uber" units smash a hole in your defense/offense, you get to watch your terminators get waxed by a pair of defilers or the equivalent.

I stand corrected...A kan has more hitpoints upgraded than a dread but a lascannon on a dread closing in on the kan will win. As for CC...the Kan has the edge...ever so slight.

[SoundWave]

i had a kan and a dread go 1on1 and the dread won, whatever that means.

[Akathrielah]

WHAAAAA???

Eldar/Chaos: yes they have ubers but they are DEMONS and FC/LIB combo will always beat them given the propper support.

ORKS: yes they have squiggy but it is just 1 unit and your preds/land raiders are far better then the looted tank.

As for termies it is NOT a uber unit they are elite. 2 sqads of reg termies will schread all orck forces appart. The only thing an ork can put up against them are the MORE EXPENSIVE nobs

The point with the uber units, is not to "beat" your army, its to be a bullet sponge, and to smash a big hole in your offensive/defense, which it can and will do with intelligent use. Sending in an uber unit forces the opponent to either focus a large amount of fire at the unit or face a large disprution in his forces, and if he does choose to throw a large amount of units at it, well, that leaves your army to do as it pleases.

So while committed your FC/Librarian + whatever amount of troops to say my Bloodthirster, I have 2 squads of Chaos marines raining missles on your FC/Librarian, bouncing them around the area. And the rest of my forces are problably going to become the hammer to the BT's anvil, or I have the option of just marching into your base. Or you can ignore the BT, and engage my troops... while the BT goes after your troops and sends em flying around.

As for terminators, well, its not that they are horrible, but why bother with them? 2 tac squads will perform the same function (and are more versitle to boot) and without the need of struggling to Tier 3. If you can micro fairly well, you can get more mileage out of the two tac squads. Terminators are anti-infantry/heavy infantry (nevermind that Dark Reapers still outrange/outgun them if I remember correctly), and Tac squads perform that function very well already at Tier 2 with plasma guns/ HB AND have the option to become excellent anti-armor units with the ML. So if I can get 2 Tac squads for that 1 squad of terminators, and I can get more bang for the buck with the 2 tac squads, why bother with the Termies?

[SoundWave]

assault terminators are good in HtH so they're definitely welcomed but you can't compare a blood thirster and a massive army to this small force of space marines, you spent all that money on a bloodthirster, they dont have a huge demon so they just got more/better units.

[Vampyre]

1) Chaos get Predators in tier 2. The defilers also have a much better weaponry set, including artillery.
2) CSM assault marines will eat up SM assault. Not only is each squad bigger, but Chaos are overall better and hand to hand combat. Same with SM squads. In all my testing, and everyone else's that I've read, the CL will beat the FC in 1 v 1 every time. Its not even close. yes, the CL has weaker powers, but he doesn't NEED them because he's better at actual combat.
3) Land raiders sucked in the Beta, and hardly ever come out. They're a tier 3 relic unit. The same can be said of the BT, but the two aren't equivolent. And Oblits don't seem to have a weakness, and can apparently go melee 1 v 1 with dreadnaughts.

The fact is that I won the battle eventually by going around, but Space Marines, overall, have the weakest units.

I need to do some testing, but in my experience so far with the retail game, dreadnaughts take damage from heavy weapons faster than the other walkers. I wouldn't expect ork melee to be very effective, but ork rokkits will now waste dreadnaughts quite quickly.

Perhaps you need to actually play the release game, or go back and read the beta strategy/balance threads.

[Urziel]

although I do think that SM are quite balanced (and they are indeed - just for one take into consideration the volatility of the marines) I still am afraid that the rest of the armies are a bit left behind... is that so? I really need someones opinion to "confort my fears" :Slap:

all in all my opinion was that from the beginning GWI would make a game that praises marines more than anyone else!

[Anakaris]

Space marines suck. The other races are better its plain and simple.

Run along everyone nothing to see here. Someone will be along shortly to put the lost troll back in it's cage.

[Shaihalud9]

Ive never really had any problems (aside from newbie mistakes) with the SM. I ALWAYS use Dred support, and I always have artillery, which, if not breaking morale, it at least throws everything where the rockets hit. I dont like the close combat of the Chaos, and as much as I loved the Zerg in StarCraft, I cant play the Orks well. I havent tried Eldar yet. I prefer the ranged weapons of the SM.

[Dooks Dizzo]

This is just crazy talk. I mean, I don't mind that people think SM's are weak. They can under estimate my army all they want.

My Dreads seem to eat Killa' Kans for lunch, could be because I support them properly.

Some people say that Eldar take the most micro to win with, I actually think it is Marines that need the micro.

You seriously have to use your army as a complete force. No one unit is going to win for you no matter what.

Once a Space Marine army gets rolling it is nearly unstoppabe, if you know what you are doing.

The Micro doesn't come from picking out little buttons on individual squads to use a special power. It comes form picking out specific units to target other units.

I generally use 4 SM tac squads. 2 Stacked with missiles. 1 with 4 flamers for destroying morale. and 1 with either Heavy Bolters or plasma depending on who I am fighting.

Take 3 Whirl Winds and start a 'rolling' barrage in front of my troops with 3-5 dreads at the spear head. If I see anyone giving my dreads a hard time I target the for some rocket death.

Anyone coming at me goes through the arty and hits the dreads first, while getting shot up by the tac squads.

I keep a couple of Termies and a drop ship dread in reserve incase things get rough for some instant back up.

Make sure that all squads have an Apothacary if possible and keep an eye on them for lost memebers and weapons.

If I can I get a LR and Machine Spirit it straight at the heart of the enemy. Watch them waste tons of effort trying to bring it down while the rest of the army shoots their pants off.

Marines are badass. They are definitely the minutes to learn months to master army however. Whatever people think about the Eldar, for them it's just a matter of targeting psykic abilities.

[Vertigo]

For the record, and off-topic a bit, I feel that Orks take the most micro. They have to manage more squads, have a more complicated tech tree, AND have to lock up all enemy squads in CC.

On topic, I've yet to see anyone put forth a strong argument why SM is underpowered. I personally think the game is pretty damn well balanced, although there MIGHT (and I say MIGHT) be a problem with Eldar.

[[Loki]]

i think ppl claim Sm to be weak simply because that race is meant for new players. As well, it's the race you play throughout the campaigns.. thus once u've completed it, you pretty much know that race like the back of your hand (or you should). Thus it is easier to play agaisnt them since you've had alot of time playing them, thus you know their strengths and their weakness.

However, each race has their unique abilites, and you simply have to excel and know the other races as well as you know SM... then ppl might see that races are pretty well balanced.

In the end, i think i prefere Sm for their flexability, even tho it's probably the more popular army at the mement on the battlefield (I usually try to play the race least played).

-Loki

[Spliffacus]

lol i suppose most of u lot that say the SM are pump havent ran into a SM line of 3 tatical squads with the word of the emperor in effect from there libraian backd up by whirlwinds its like trying to brake through a steel wall with a toffe hammer because there whirlwinds will break u and its imposible to break the SM line then when u break the enemy nothing like a few speeders to mop up the runners plus a couple hellfiire dreads can take care enemy heavy metal pretty well when used correct

ive got da big choppa :bandit:

[[Loki]]

what's better to use to kill vehicles? predators with the lascannons (i usualy leave the autocannon on to be able to kill units at the same time) or the hellfire with the lasc?

I haven't gotten the hang of ww cause they always kill my troops with the enemie's since they always rush me and force my into close fighting.. not necessarily h2h.. but friggen close combat. tips for the ww?

-Loki

[Adovid]

A good counter for vehicles is squads with missile launchers on top of your typical lasc vehicles.

[Schwifty]

Vs eldar seems to be a problem for all us space marine players... The answere I've found is heavy bolters and whirlwinds if you last long enough to get them. The eldar troops arent too strong. Also landmines, and a few timely dropped in dreadnaughts in the middle of thier ranks when they're attacking will mess them up, especially if they start shooting the dreads with fire prisms, which will damage his own units in hand to hand with your dread.

Double Post


']what's better to use to kill vehicles? predators with the lascannons (i usualy leave the autocannon on to be able to kill units at the same time) or the hellfire with the lasc?

I haven't gotten the hang of ww cause they always kill my troops with the enemie's since they always rush me and force my into close fighting.. not necessarily h2h.. but friggen close combat. tips for the ww?

-Loki

I'd go with the pred, the side bolters can still attack troops. I usually run 2 preds if I do, 1 with twin las on top and 1 with autocannon and las on sides. Usually I just make my 10 dreads and keep 2 or 3 of them ready to drop into combat right on top of any units that are harassing me from afar, or to just break the hell out of an enemy rush.

The time it takes him to kill the dreads will help your troops make veal out of his army.

[Perp]

I played against STFN, and he was nice enough to give me this tidbit vs. Eldar...

Flamers and Snipers EARLY.

Automatched a couple of more Eldar, and it works! Of course, they are no where near as good as he was... I sit in awe of his abilities to micromanage. He spanked me so hard it was starting to get kinky.

[sverkuijlen200]

Whats with people comparing defilers and dreads all the time?! it's like comparing a killa can to a whirlwind....

Defilers are artillery, they have a CC attack but if you play half decent you won't need it because you can keep the enemy away from your arty.
Dreads on the other hands are true infantery shredding walkers, there supposed to chew up infatery since it's the only thing there supposed to do.

You don't see me running around the forums shouting
"OMG OMG DEFILERS HAVE ARTY AND DREADS DON'T!11!11!!!!1! OMG OMG NERF NERF NERF!!"
Now do you?

You can't compare two units or vehicles in 1v1 if there role isn't the same.

[EDIT] I'm such a dumbass, this was a reply to a post on page 1 of this thread...

[Spliffacus]

well i love the SM i have tried all the races and have stuck to the SM because they where my fav on the tabletop to so out of loyalty to the emperor i stick to them lol.
i also think relic have got the races spot on as far as a balance issue goes every race has it strong and weak points u have to learn to play to them to master your race once u have no race is weak boils down to tatics my only gripe is and its nothing realy is force commanders id like to seen the likes of the chapter force commanders like calgar for the ultramarines with his gauntlets of ultimar 2 twin cc power fists with a bolter on each lol and the likes of captain tyko i think it was for blood angels maybe in a expansion or mod this would make a few orks poop da pants lol

[ninjin]

Are Space Marines are newby race? - Yes.

Are Space Marines generalist? - Yes.

Do Space Marines have a good unit selection? - Yes.


BUT, despite them being a newby race, the fact that they are so verstile permits for a LOT of different strategy and tactics due to their flexibility. They are not a specialized army like eldar or orks, but they are definately FAR more flexible, and whirlwinds make the defiler look like a poor man's pathetic effort to long range artillery.

[ghostmaker77]

Marines are at some serious disadvantages as they have no serious assault vehicle along the lines of Looted Leman Russes or Defilers. hence the perceived weakness.

Vindicators, anyone?

http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99140101114&orignav=10

[Schwifty]

Are Space Marines are newby race? - Yes.

Are Space Marines generalist? - Yes.

Do Space Marines have a good unit selection? - Yes.


BUT, despite them being a newby race, the fact that they are so verstile permits for a LOT of different strategy and tactics due to their flexibility. They are not a specialized army like eldar or orks, but they are definately FAR more flexible, and whirlwinds make the defiler look like a poor man's pathetic effort to long range artillery.


HAHAHHA A NEWBY RACE? ARE YOU DAFT? THE GAMES ONLY BEEN OUT A WEEK, WE'RE ALL NEWBY'S. :yas:

Anyways, every army has its purpose, orcs have thier numbers, chaos has its close quarters, eldar has its early game mauling capability.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Marines are at some serious disadvantages as they have no serious assault vehicle along the lines of Looted Leman Russes or Defilers. hence the perceived weakness.

Vindicators, anyone?

http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99140101114&orignav=10

Dude the whirlwind rocks the world, if for no other reason than that its so god damn cheap. I also think it has more range than the other Artillery units.

[DarthVaygr]

Schwifty, ahem, some of us more fortunate people were int he Beta, so we may be actually very good at the game!

[strategery]

The only race that I can see has a clear advantage over SM are eldar in early game with that goddamn seer council. Other than that the game is really balanced. One thing SM HAVE to use to their advantage is morale. If SM can break morale HB's, plasma, and rockets will mop up everything. Early game, 1 FC, 2 tac squads w/ HBs, and snipers can demolish soo much.

SMs flexibility keeps them accesible to new players, while at the same time keeping them from being just "the newb race." Experienced players can use the versatility of marines to exploit other races weaknesses.

I do think that AMs need a bit of a boost. Their WAY too weak for their price, and morale breaks far to easily. But I guess melta bombs can kind of make up for this.

[Akathrielah]

The only race that I can see has a clear advantage over SM are eldar in early game with that goddamn seer council.


Dark Reapers annihilate space marines and really can do a number if used intelligently against a SM player. Couple that with Fire Prisms and Brightlances and your in deep trouble if you can't find away to bring those DRs or FPs/BL Platforms down in a hurry.

[Dooks Dizzo]

Space Marines Rock ASS!

Eldar do have some weaponry that pwns them, but it works both ways.

All that stragery was saying is that the Eldar have a CLEAR advantage with the SC/FS thing early game. Other than that they both have weapons that will effect eachother nicely.

I think I am going to try and make 90 Marines tonight backed by 10 dreads and see how it works out.

[Iurius]

Just use them correctly.
Coordinate and support. Don't expect some uber unit to do the work for you, it will not.
See what's coming, adapt and overcome

That is the way of the Space Marines
That is the way of the warrior

The enemies of the Emperor fear many things
They fear discovery
They fear defeat
But above all, they fear the wrath of the Space Marines

Stay true to the Emperor


(btw, wouldn't Grey Knights be something?)

[Fritz]

Grey Knights mod is in the works :D

[strategery]

Dark Reapers annihilate space marines and really can do a number if used intelligently against a SM player. Couple that with Fire Prisms and Brightlances and your in deep trouble if you can't find away to bring those DRs or FPs/BL Platforms down in a hurry.

Tac squads with HB's backed up with snipers make short work of DRs. By the time fireprisms come out I can have 2 dreads. Snipers work on the DRs, to break morale, HB tac squads mop up with snipers aid. Dreads focus on the platforms along with MLs for backup.

That can be countered if the SM player is playing ingelligently(*gasp!*)

As I said. The only clear advantage comes from that damn SC/FS rush early game. They can sit there and reinforce faster than they die....

[FatFish]

']i think ppl claim Sm to be weak simply because that race is meant for new players. As well, it's the race you play throughout the campaigns.. thus once u've completed it, you pretty much know that race like the back of your hand (or you should). Thus it is easier to play agaisnt them since you've had alot of time playing them, thus you know their strengths and their weakness.


-Loki

A race meant for new players? Bleh. Like someone else said on this forum. It takes minutes to learn, months to master. Just like in the TT version. It might be the most popular race to play against, but I have yet to see why it is the 'new player' race. All of the races seem to be well balanced to me, even the Eldar. People have tons and tons of problems with eldar, it seems... If you are getting a SC+FS in early game, have a FC+1 squad with Flamers (no not the forum type) and one with HB. Try to get the FC to tie up that SC as best you can while Flamers break moral and HB cut them down. Also, don't use the stand ground stance, use the versitile(sp?) stance ready. Just... Keep your HB pounding on them in the early game. :)


Anyhow, I spammed off my point. All of the races seem to be -so freakin balanced- that I can 'feasably' see how ANY race could be meant for new players.

[[Loki]]

well it's the "new player's race" simply because in tutorials and the campaign.. it's the race u are using.. and since new players usually go through both the tutorial and campaign... get my flow? lol.. let me re-phrase that: it's the race introduced to players when they first start out in the battlefield.

In order to learn and master the other races.. u have to play either skirmishes or agaisnt another individual.. only way.. no step-by-step campaign that is there to help you grasp the pros and cons of an army.

-Loki

[FatFish]

lol man. I get your meaning. :bandit:

[Iurius]

Grey Knights mod is in the works :D

Ow yeah,
I for one can't wait....That is one chapter Chaos will be sorry it ever faced!

:D :D :D

[LemannRuss]

Favor de no alimenten los trolls.

[Dooks Dizzo]

Just face it people, Space Marines pwn.

[<DAB>FallenZero]

I know I get a lot of slack for playing SM, but eldar are not that interesting to me, Chaos is too daemonic, and the Orks (who actually are my favorite race) don't fit my playing style.

The bottom line is, space marines are pound-for-pound the toughest race in the game. I can understand if someone thinks they suck because they don't like them, or they don't know how to play them, or even if they hate the fact that EVERYBODY plays them. However, to say that Space Marines suck as a race is foolishly underestimating an opponent.

[Courtsloth]

Space marines suck. The other races are better its plain and simple.

Chaos are better.
Ork are better.
Eldar are better.


A well versed and convincing argument if i ever heard one.... :Slap:

[Triz]

Maybe it has to do with just needing some practise to be able to win? No-one ever plays a game once and then beats everyone.

[Iurius]

That still doesn't mean you can state that an army simply sucks.

[<DAB>FallenZero]

You can say you don't like them, but you can't say they suck. I've whipped too much arse for some yahoo to go ditching my army and telling me it's inferior. I have no prob with a guy not liking the space marines (esp because he has a point [everybody plays 'em, esp noobs]). But it's foolish to say what that dumb piece of feces said about this army.

[3zekiel]

Wow, there's really not much for me to say here that hasn't already been said, but, to sum up:

They're easy to play; the SM squad is BY FAR the best basic infantry unit in the game (remember, Chaos warp-spawn, my flamer beats yours b/c I can rally and you can't), and there really isn't any big problem with them. I wish, however, AMs weren't so overpriced.

And, incidentally, Grey Knights? How about the Deathwing? Be very afraid, people.

[Iurius]

Grey Knights would own

SM for noobs, yes, it's easy to learn, difficult to master. Lots of them switch anyway. Only the true stay

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Guess that means I'm one of the true then. Marines all the way.

[sandy77uk]

their versatility is their strength, go with an infantry hvy force and I'll cut you down wuth HB and plasmas, go with CC hvy force and my flamers will desimate you, go with tanks and ML will ee that you are judged

and this is before I've emered from the ever presence of dreads and preds. and stick a LR in there if you need a meat shield and terms just to really upset him

not an easy race to play "well"

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Land raider is severely wasted as a meat shield. Costs lots more than the predator for only around 10-20% more hp.

[sandy77uk]

are you mad? a LR can stand up to one hell of a punishment a Pred drops quickly

[Drizzt DoUrden]

i've never seen anybody win with the orcs.

eldar are good for rushing and have some intresting skills.

i think space marines that are properlly teched out can beat the chaos every time.

you need to learn what each unit does and why it does it and use it that way.

it's not really the armies in the end though - its you.
if you know how to build an army and use each units skills as one whole then you can win with any of them. (cept maybe the orcs)

Double Post

i prefer 4 preds to one land raider.

[Yojimbo]

Yeah but check out the cost difference:

4 x Pred = 4 x (190 / 455) = 760 / 1820 Res / Pwr
1 x LR = 470 / 555

And the build times:

4 x Pred = 4 x 82 = 328 secs
1 x LR = 118 secs

Bearing in mind power tends to be more scarce than resource later in the game there's only a 18% difference between the cost of a Pred and an LR. I'd go for the LR.

[Stymie_Jackson]

i've never seen anybody win with the orcs.

You, my friend, are a total dildo. Not only do you spew this madness in the game lobby but you do so on the boards. Gross generalizations really just make you look dumb and draw insults from folks like me.

I've got a 76% win percentage...playing only orks.

[Vertigo]

You, my friend, are a total dildo. Not only do you spew this madness in the game lobby but you do so on the boards. Gross generalizations really just make you look dumb and draw insults from folks like me.

I've got a 76% win percentage...playing only orks.

While I think Stymie_Jackson responded in a horribly poor fashion, I concur with his point.

Orks are not so grossly underpowered. Seems everyone thinks ONE of the factions is underpowered, but not many people agree which faction that is. Sounds like good balancing to me.

It seems to me, overall, that this game is well balanced for a 1.0 release.

Sure, I may personally feel Orks are a little tough to play, but a statement like "i've never seen anybody win with the orcs." is just idiotic. It takes about 5 seconds to find a good replay showing the opposite.

It seems the only consensus the community has even come close to reaching is that Eldar is a bit overpowered, mostly due to SC. And even that is hardly unanimous at this point.

[Stymie_Jackson]

While I think Stymie_Jackson responded in a horribly poor fashion...

Yes, that is certainly true. I shouldn't post when at work (due to lack of patience from dealing with jack-a-napes all dang day long.

Drizzt, please accept my humbly apologies. You are not a dildo, you are just VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY wrong.

[Mortis]

Not to be one of the aforementioned jackanapes (and I'm responding from work to...idiots gave me internet access....mouahaha....) but all he said was that HE never saw anyone win as orks. Offhand comment and opinion from his point of view. I think it is rather vitriolic of people to place more meaning into his words than what's written.

Feh...

I'm jackanaping....

[3zekiel]

I've had cause to say this before, but damn, people are gentlemanly on these boards. And, at any rate, orks give me a headache, so I'm impressed by folks who play them well. I'll stick to my Marines, though.

[strategery]

I seem to get paired with orky_dorky like 2-3 times a week.. I've seen what orks are capable of.. Countered it once and still lost(damn internet cut out).Orky one day man I will take you down!

Eldar are the only problem race, SC is overpowered due to a glitch with conceal. Once that nice conceal stacking bug is fixed I think they'll be fine.

[Iurius]

@ n0z3k1ll3r:
Absolutely, marines ROCK!

[Yogo Hong]

I dont' know if it is just me or those I was playing against weren't so good, but today I held 2 players armies off with 1 whirlwind, 2-3 dreadnoughts and 2-3 squads with one FC. I was against Chaos with defilers and Eldar with Warp spiders, guardian, fire prism, council and avatar.

Space Marines are NOT weak

[John]

no race sucks or better then the other it all comes down how ppl play them

[sandy77uk]

yogo looking at that I wouldnt say you held them off more than they didnt want to commit

the fire prism woud have kept your troops on their asses, the avatar could of tied down the dreadnoughts and his warp spiders and guardians would of just opened fired, assuming he could get past your wirlwind

that being said, if the chaos guy came in then it would of been a different story

[Ginyard]

Lots of good points here. Slightly off topic unfortunately, but years of hanging round the local GW store like a complete tool have taught me that Marines are the most widely adopted race because by and large they are the least expensive race to collect as a result of their high point cost. This bias translates well into DoW with Marines being the face of 40k in general and the subject of the single player campaign.

Fully agree with the post earlier about how difficult it is to stop a marine force once it picks up some momentum, soon as those tac squads get chance to plant their feet, a lot of casualties occur pretty quickly.

Also, id like to know how many people use their dreads as weapons platforms and how many prefer to use them as CC? I love using them in a CC role because for some reason when they are in the process of picking up and hurling some unfortunate nastie they dont take any damage! Get this cat among the pidgeons and the enemy spend as much time shooting it to no avail as they do managing to actually take it down. Dropping them in unexpectedly during a battle in this role can cause MAJOR headaches, especially for shooty armies.

[Ivan_R]

re: Dreads not taking damage when hurling someone; as far as I can gather, no unit that has a "death animation" takes damage when engaged in it - so kans, Avatars, BTs, yada yada yada - nothing takes damage when they're doing their thing.

re: weapons loadout, I tend to arm my CC dreads with ACs, and then my support DNs w/ Lascannon - I'm loathe to go all out either way (all CC or all support) as it cuts my flexibility, and if one DN goes down, if it's specialised, I lose that whole aspect. Better to have be okay at both than excellent at only one in my opinion.

[Supercilious]

I love DN's, and I love marines.

Marines are every aspect of every other race blended, plus mechanized drop infantry...

[Soulrender]

I havent got any problems with space marines, but the seer council..and when they get fixed then we will be even with the eldars too

[FoolsFolly]

If sm are so weak how come they are the most played race in the top 100 rated?
Ok top 10 is eldar..but as you go the list SM begin to become the most common race by far, which IMHO proves it one of the strongest races overall

[Rag_uk]

i dont know why but i just cant play as Eldar :D i get withdrawal symptons if i dont have my Dreds, also Dropshiping Dreds just cant be matched

[ATI_Rage]

Don't forget, Marines have some really awesome special abilities, which I don't seen anyone mentioning in the defense of SM.

If you can manage a scout behind a choke point (early game) keep him alive till the late game, then move your command unit into the orbital relay station, DS him into enemy territory, orbital strike....huge hole in defense.

Also, Librarians have the ability to make your own SM unable to die for a limited time....amazingly great against people with lots of units on the map. If you upgraded your units properly (say Sm with all rocket launchers to counter a huge tank assault) then you get a little extra "umph" with your Marines to deal that much extra damage, combine that with a battlecry and you have a rather veritable force.

Also, Whirlwinds ROCK!!! their guess ability and easy ability to damage morale make them great.

I see the problem being that if you can't utilize ALL of the SM abilities (like strategic use of the orbital relay station by putting your Command Squad into the station, and things like that) then they aren't the race you should be playing, Sm are a little tough to manage, its IMPERATIVE that you use all the SM abilities.

[Seithon]

FoolsFolly:
Just one thing, while I'm not going to suggest that the top ten players cheat, it is well know that their are some serious balance bugs with eldar.

To everyone else i find myself saying, wait till the bugs are solved to see how the dust settles.

[Lars]

SMs are good. I actually believe they are better than the other armies. Seriously.

besides, two words: Orbital bombardment.

[Tiresias]

as a noob, i'm not much of an expert,

but which race is strongest or poorest seems a bit of a moot point, the patches will jiggle that in future, and there is no fun in giving up before you even start in believing they're purely a 'noob' race, you might as well try anyway, even if its true that they aren't as strong. The best tactics come in adversity.