Plasma vs. Heavy Bolter

[Quik3silvr]

Hi there!

One thing that really bothers me is that everyone keeps saying that a tac SM squad with HB is best against light infantry!!

My beta experience told me that plasma guns just mowed down light infantry like cultists. When I tested it with a friend (he was playing Chaos), we tried different skirmish fights. A fully equipped plasma SM squad killed a cultist squad way faster than a HB squad. I guess with the orks it would be the same. That is why I always go with plasma as soon it is availible.

Now, this is only BETA experience, has this changed in the final version?

Until I read this various threads I thought plasma was way better than HB: they can fire while running, and they actually deal more damage even to light infantry.

Any thoughts on this?

Greets. :beer:

[Deadeye]

Id rather have plasma than HB, but HBs are available sooner and picking them up as soon as they are available makes my infantry better than thier infantry for a awhile.

[SoundWave]

ya as SM i usually pick one up and maybe a flamer to help when closing to HtH. but you've only tested this against cultists? how about some real troops?

[Hawley]

cultists are fake troops?

[Quik3silvr]

@SoundWave: Yes, I tested it only with Cultists. What do you mean with real troops? As soon as it gets to heavy infantry, its proven that plasma is way better. I will test it with Guardians though. And I will see how it works with the Orkys. My guess is that will be the same and HB get obsolete as soon as plasma is available.

For early game though I agree that HB is a must.

I´m still happy about any response, this still interests me as hell. ;)

Edit: Spelling :D

[MadOgre]

So far HB works fine until plasma upgrade avail against Orks light infantry...especially if I have two-three squads and can position them into a crossfire situation. I have only tried against the orks, tried going at them man up...started getting crushed...upgraded couple of guys too flamers...moved one squad over to create a crossfire to spilt the ork rush...flamed anyone that rushed in between. If a KIlla Kan gets loose and all you have is HB...run. One got lose on me before I could upgrade...picked up a couple of SM's...wiped his butt with them...and then it looked like he pointed at me thru the screen and started laughing.

[SoundWave]

i meant real troops as in not the scout unit of the army, the fighters. tho i know most fighters seem to be heavy infantry but thats really only for the marines isn't it?

[MadOgre]

I have not used the scout marines that much, so I am referring to the assault marines squads.

[Quik3silvr]

I must test it with Eldar Guardians who are light infantry I believe. As you said, SoundWave, most "real" combat troops used in mid or end game are heavy infantry and so you are better off with plasma.

[SoundWave]

all eldar are infantry/light infantry except for the darkreapers so HBs are probably a really good bet tho i still almost always carry one plasma gun and obviously officers with plasma pistols for heroes and armored things. anyone else wish for cooler vehicle destructions? i would love to see one launched threw the air like some of the table top scenarios.

[Nortonius]

war spiders are heavy infantry too.

~Ryan

[SoundWave]

not according to the book that comes with the game.

[Superboozer]

The heavy bolter is cool but the set up time sucks. I like having a squad defending my base with a couple heavy bolters and one rocket launcher. That way they can stay and spray. For a squad that is advancing I like plasmas because they don't have to wait to set up. I usually have all plasmas and a flamer. I almost always seem to get into a close fight so the flamer is good and the plasma is still better than a heavy in close. Thats just my take on it. I'm no ace or anything so take it for what it's worth.

[Quik3silvr]

Well this is the RTS- section. ;)

I personally dislike HBs just because of the long setup-time. Its just annoying not being able to "dance" right. I´m looking for other tactics in early games. The only one I found so far are ASM´s. When I´m back from vacation I´ll try out some ideas I have and figure out how well they work.

What also bothers me about HB´s is that if that SM-squad survives early game (which is the case most of the games due to retreating in case of losing a skirmish), I cannot re-equip it with Missile-launchers or Plasma. So I end up running around with a HB-squad and waiting for the HB´s to die, so I can reinforce other heavy weapons. I usually try NOT to max out my first squads with HB´s and wait for plasma-tech. This is, however, VERY risky. My FC can´t compensate this at all. I survive often enough though. ;)

[Entropius]

Dark Reapers are light infantry, Warp Spyders are heavy infantry, Seer Council is heavy.

Heavy bolters outrange plasma, too--and range is huge in this game.

Someone should test HB vs. plasma performance against shoota boyz and see what happens.

[Perp]

The book describes Heavy Bolters as anti-infantry and Plasma Guns as anti-armor, I wonder what actual damage is done against each with each weapon?

Sounds like Heavy Bolter is the way to go against Eldar infantry... but if they are bouncing you around using those psych attacks, then the setup on HB would be a detriment.




...

[Quik3silvr]

Well, but plasma still deals more damage to light infantry.

The range is a good point though. I´ll test that out. Its worth alot if you can fire 2 seconds before the enemy can. You just cant walk into a mob of enemys with HB´s. Then you are in trouble big time. As already stated by someone I now consider HB´s are better for defense. Am I right here? Sort of "mobile bolter turret".

[MadOgre]

I agree that HB range seems to out range plasmas. I have mainly been playing vs. orks, so I will try HB vs. plasma tonight and pay attention too see what the differnce is against shootas.

[Nortonius]

You can always hit "Delete" any time to kill off a squad you don't want anymore, if you want to get rid of the Heavy Bolters THAT badly.

~Ryan

[Havock]

Heavy bolters are more defensive guns, stick a tacsquad with heavy bolters in a hola and any normal/light infantry that comes too close is gonna get some newly punctured breathing holes.

more like the "I'm sitting here and you ain't" weapon :)

[Oggsmash]

The heavy bolter does MORE damage vs light infantry. The damage each heavy weapon does is listed in the help text when you place the pointer over the slot for the weapon in a squad. Now I am sure in the heat of battle the plasma seems to do more because if a squad is moving the plasma gets several extra shots in a skirmish due to bolter set up time. The damage difference is around 15-20 points/sec if I am not mistaken.

[Magus]

Am I the only one who can see that Cultists are actually heavy infantry?

And as said repeatedly throughout beta and now I guess in retail: The Eldar heavy infantry units are Warp Spiders, Warlocks, and Platforms. Not reapers.

[Evan_gelion]

Heavy Bolters and are *better* against Light Infantry than Plasma guns; that said, Plasma guns are more flexible. It's sor the Lascannon theory, but in the case of the Plasma gun it's a little blurred; a Lascannon will kill just about everything; the reason the HB is better against infantry is (provided you don't havet os et up) it does damage *faster* than the Plasma gun. Whether you prefer that or the general middle-road performance of the Plasma gun is up to your preference.

[Vampyre]

against low-armor targets(light infantry) the heavy bolter gives you a constant stream of fire and will take down the infantry faster.

That said, I usually tailor my army to the opponent(s) I'm facing. Orks get Heavy bolters because of the massed infantry. Eldar get a mix, usually. Chaos get plasma and missiles.

However, missiles work all around, so I generally end up using them toward the end with 1 plasma marine squad or two as backup, and some sniper scouts for morale damage.

I never use the flamer. For what it does, I'd rather use sniper scouts and not get into melee range.

[newghost]

i prefer HB simply because i tend to be annoying and grind the enemy like this: set up a wall of death (lots of marines each with 2 RLs and 2 HBs) then load up 2 or 3 terms and DS them behind the enemy and force him into the wall and WALLA purre ^_^

[Quik3silvr]

@ Ryan: I can´t afford losing a full squad worth 400 req in mid-game. "delete" is not an option than.

Ok, I´m a bit confused now. Since I don´t own the full version yet I still have to stick with my beta-skills. ;) When I tested it out the Cultists every time ran into ME so I didn´t need setup time at all. Still the plasma mowed them down TWICE as fast as the HB´s. Maybe this changed in the final.

@ Magus: Cultists are heavy? Thats new to me. I´ll check that, but it would be really surprising (and an answer why plasma mowed them down).

[Spliffacus]

this is a silly topic really because every weapon has its use HB is a cover weapon like a mg42 machine gun or a m60 try a squad with 4 HB on overwatch covering your squad that has 3 plasma and a flamer as your plasma squad takes ground move up the HB squad to keep covering there advance,and a squad with a few rocket launchers comes in handy to blast away any buildings.

[G6killer]

I prefer HB over plasma (i just like how it looks :D )
HB has a far better range then plasma vs infantery (any infantery)
Plasma is medium ranged and can be used while ur squad is on the move wich makes good assault weapon.

[smegzor]

Like Vampyre said, I usually setup my SM TS units based on the enemy:
ORC & ELDAR : Heavy Bolter
MARINES & CHAOS : Plasma

However instead of building a dedicated squad of Plasma/Rockets/HB I have each squad contain 2 rockets + 2 of the above mentioned weapons dependant on the opponent. With 3 of these squads guarded by two AS and/or Dreds I usually wreak havok!!

Rockets are a win win weapon knock around troops and allow your squad to take on the heavier units. Plus HUGE range. Love'em :D

[J23]

ORC & ELDAR : Heavy Bolter
MARINES & CHAOS : Plasma


Amen!

The only exception being my defensive sqads, I prefer the long range of bolters over the plasma damage for those.

And yes, rockets are beautiful! :bump:

[[Loki]]

well according to the official guide book, vampyre and smegzor are right. HB is described as the anit-infantry (light) while plasmas were intended to pierce the heavy armour.. thus the heavy infantry.

Since HB have a much greater range over plasma, i tend to have them sit right behind my SM plasma squad for range support. But then ur arsenal should depend on the race you play against, since each race has their unique attributes as well as they speciallize in more of one type of unit (heavy or light).

anyways, my 2 cents with what i've read in the book.

-Loki

[ghostmaker77]

depends on the role you task your troops for! if you are using them in the support role and stand them back, then two heavy bolters and two rocket launchers are the ticket! if you are going to use them in assault, then two plasma guns and two flamers rock!

[Khorne969]

I just finished the 8th mission this afternoon. I found that having 2 squads w/ 4 HB’s for the range, 1 squad w/ 4 RL’s , 1 w/ 4 PG’s and any Hero squads all have Flamers works very good. The HB’s do a good job chewing threw all the troops I encountered so far. Backed up my RL’s not much gets through. Any thing that gets any closer has to go through PG’s and Flamers! Plus any armor that you have to take care of the big stuff and to watch your flanks. Also you have your assault squads for any quick response action for hand to hand. Any way its all fun!! Love the game so far. Cant wait to play over the net. Later

[SanityAssassin]

as is being said all over these forums the way this game works one thing is not always better than another...its all about knowing what to use when, judging tactics ETC....against marines or chaos with alot of HI coming at you then plasma guns are aweosme, they are however usually less than useful against orks, and marginally so against eldar (watch the players strategies, they are good for killing seer coucil's and BL platforms)

[strategery]

if you defending a point, HB's are probably the best option. I find 2-3 SM squads with HB's and Rockets defending a point backed up with snipers is really hard to penetrate.

[Sixhits]

You guys should look at it like this:

Flamers and Plasma Guns are Assault Weapons -- you can move and shoot with them. The Flamer is the anti-troop weapon and the Plasma is the anti-armor weapon.

Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers are Heavy Weapons -- you must stabilize before you can shoot with them. The HB is the anti-troop weapons and the ML is the anti-armor weapon.

Once you recognize this you can tailor your squads better.

It's generally less effective to mix assault weps with heavy weps, because they "step" on each other. Want to use flamer? You need to get close. Want to use HBs? You need to have enough time to be steady. Combine flamers and HBs and you have a versitle unit which excells at nothing.

But, build a squad with flamers and plas, or HBs and MLs, and suddenly you can see you're Marines excell. It's less rock-paper-siscors than play to your strengths. Marines are verstile, but even Marines do better when specialized a little.

My personal prefference? In tier two have at least one squad all ML, one or two ML/HB, the rest mixes of plas and flame.

If I'm feeling nervous I might toss the odd flamer into my "devistator" squads (the HB/ML mixes). I've seen what shooty troops in melee can do -- they RULE, if range stanced. And flamers are always good choices.

[Augustus]

HBs are deffinatly better then plasmas at taking down light infantry, no question about it. However, the thing is that all light infantry is usually supported by a heavy (like Nobz for orky boyz), so you should ALWAYS have plasma around for those guys. Some people pointed out that missle launchers are just as good as plasmas vs heavies - this is not true. The reload time is MUCH smaller for plasmas, so deffinatly have plasmas around.

[ir0nside]

Guys, it's really rather simple what you should be doing.

You should have two squads - one with weapons which can be used in close combat or on the move, and a squad full of heavy bolters, in support. Here is how it goes, for me;

I have a frontline group, with mixed plasma/flamers.. which stays just ahead of the second group; when the enemy is engaged, I dance my plasma/flamer units around, which continue to fire at the enemy group and lead them around, breaking morale up a bit and dealing them damage.

All the while, my second squad of pure Heavy Bolters is pouring a constant stream of hot lead at the enemy, ripping their light infantry to shreds in seconds. Rinse repeat - it really is that simple.

In the early game, it's best to have your Force Commander not attatched to your squad of heavy bolters; run him into melee as your HB's set up and fire, then run your commander around the enemy. This works -wonders- against orcs. If they can't really melee him (since he is running around), they are stuck firing off crappy ranged weapons at him, while they are torn to shreds by the HB's.

It's all about simple, basic micro management.

[Ding Chavez]

I personally have not ran into a single problem when using only HB with my SM's. THe majority of games I have been playing so far are 3v3 comp stomps with the AI difficulty on Harder or Insane. I am yet to run into a considerable amount of trouble without having plasma or flamethrower guys. Than again I usually am massing them up. And am usually using them in defense behind turrets. Or using them in support of my allied offensive movements. Even after that part of the game I do not have a single problem tearing through any of the races buildings and defenses. But by that time I have predators and Dreads. So who knows. I guess what alot of people have said is that you have to know when to use what at the right time. And I would even throw the comment on that you need to know how to use what you are making. Just my thoughts and experiences so far.

[FerociousBeast]

I don't think anyone is debating the intended purpose of these weapons. I think the original point of the thread is that though HBs are intended to be better against unarmored infantry than plasma, they simply aren't. A bunch of people said they would test this out against orks, but no one has updated this thread with any such information.

As far as we know, the original contention stands that plasma is better than HB in all circumstances.

Also, the HB's range is not "much" greater than the PG's. The HB has a range of 35 (whatever that means) while the PG has a range of 30. For comparison, the Boltgun's range is 25. If SMs are charging with PGs against another squad of SMs with HBs, the greater range of the HB will be negated pretty quickly.

Edit: got this info from: http://anytown.orionnet.com/nembus/DoW.html

[ThreshLly]

You can always hit "Delete" any time to kill off a squad you don't want anymore, if you want to get rid of the Heavy Bolters THAT badly.

~Ryan

I have to say this thread gets me thinking of one thing I would like to see. Right now you can only scuttle an entire squad. I would love to be able to ditch a specific heavy weapon so I can upgrade.

In the campaign I often just held on until I updgrade my monastary before adding heavy weapons. That way I am not stuck with HB when I really want a PG

[Quik3silvr]

Ok, I got my copy yesterday and fooled around a little bit. What I found out was that a full reinforced HB-squad (no armory upgrades, no sergeant) killed a 4-men slugga-boyz squad in FIVE seconds. They never got into CC.

When I tried the same with a PL-squad, it took me 12 seconds. These four orks even made it into CC with me.

So I have to say: HB´s really seem to be better for orks.

I will do some more tests in a couple of days.

[Vertigo]

I have to say this thread gets me thinking of one thing I would like to see. Right now you can only scuttle an entire squad. I would love to be able to ditch a specific heavy weapon so I can upgrade.

Not going to happen. Some people asked for this a while ago, and Deggy (a Dev) slapped them down:

(post #24)
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=511462