Keeping Productivity up as orks?

[Voyager]

Well, I've been trying out the Orks in skirmish mode, and I've run into a bit of a productivity problem with them. I can not seem to increase my Waagh about +14.

I plant Waagh banners like they were going out of style (sometimes as much a 8 to a single control point), but my Waagh generation never seems to increase.

It's rather frustrating to have 20,000 req points accumulated, and only 6 in the Waagh pool, when I have a couple dozen squads in desperate need of reinforcement.

Harry Voyager

[Hadron]

"20,000 req points"..."couple dozen squads"

You might be egsaterating but by that point in the game it should be over.

--Hadron

[Doomhawk]

Your total pop + your unspent WAAAGH points will never exceed your population cap. Remember that you can never have more than 100 pop worth of Orks, period. A "couple dozen squads" should probably mean your pop cap is full. If you have 20,000 req, build vehicles, get every upgrade, then throw everything you have at the enemy. If you don't destroy them, who cares, you have enough req to rebuild time and time again.

[Voyager]

I was testing the Orks on Biffy's Peril, on Easy difficulty, which can be an extremely resource rich map. By the end game period, I did have around 20k reg points saved up, and about two-three Shoota or Slugga squads, four Nob squads, and four Gretching squads. It was end game, but I wanted to experiment with units somewhat.

Problem was, the two or three Shoota squads were down to around four orks each, due to casualties from assaulting a Space Marine turret farm, and the Nob squads had just been constructed and were pretty much stock, so I only had around 20-30 actual orks on map, not counting the Gretchins.

So, basically the more ork squads I have on the field, the lower my Waagh production rate is?

Harry Voyager

[Vertigo]

Voyager,

Ugh. OK, forget all you think you know, as it is all wrong. Blank mind... OK? Let's start again...

First: Waagh rate doesn't exist. Forget about that +14, it doesn't exist. Blank mind. The number to the left of it? Doesn't exist. I'm dead serious. That "WAAAGH" graphic that turns red? Also in the state of not existing. Only rules lawyers care about these numbers, because during the game these numbers just don't matter.

Second: You can field UP TO 100 MAX population of Orks. Most Ork units cost 1 pop EACH. Nob Leaders cost 2 EACH. Nobs cost 2 EACH. Grots are special, and cost 1 PER SQUAD. The Big Mek costs 2, and the Warboss costs 5. For example: If you had 40 Nobs in 5 squads, thats 40x2 = 80 population consumed out of your 100 total. THE NUMBER OF SQUADS DOES NOT MATTER, ONLY THE UNITS IN THE SQUADS COUNT.

Third: While 100 is the MAX population, the cap starts at 10 pop. Every Waaagh banner you build adds +10. So, it takes NINE banners to unlock your maximum population cap. Any additional banners have no effect.

Fourth: Tech is basically unlocked by HOW MANY BANNERS you have. This is a simplification, but it's close enough for 99% of all situations. As an example, a Generator requires 16 pop or more, as you can see in the tooltip. Since population only increases in increments of +10, we can basically say a Generator requires 20 pop. Thus it will become unlocked after you build your FIRST banner. By the same token, a Dok (pop 46) requires FOUR banners.

Fifth: Note that the tech won't unlock immediately upon building a banner. There is, in effect, a LAG between banners and tech. Again simplifing things, we can say that the Banner effect trickles in over the span of a few seconds after it is built. The delay is always short, so it's not big deal.

This is not an exact description of the Ork system, but it's close enough to get you started. If you really want to know the whole, gory system, check out this thread:

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=471225

[Voyager]

Ok, let me see if I'm understanding this.

For the first nine or ten Waaagh banners, each one increases my stored Waaagh by 10, and increases the regeneration rate by something or another. At nine or ten Waaagh Banners (putting my Pop cap at 100), by themselves, I should have a total 100 Waaagh, if I have not built any Ork units. If I have built Orks, then my stored Waaagh will be 100-Waaagh Per Individual Ork*Number of Individual Orcs built.

Bassically, I will get a large "starting" pool of Waaagh resource, that will only replentish very slowly, no matter what I do. The rammifications of this are that each individual Ork is precious, and not to be lost. As such, it would seem to me, the better tactics with Ork then, would be to play a structure heavy defensive game, until you could build high density units, rather than doing mass charges, but on the flip side, that seems to be a good way to get yourself killed by the other side.

Definetly an odd race to play.

Harry Voyager

[Vertigo]

No, totally wrong. THERE IS NO WAAAGH, only POP. Pretend it does not exist. Blank mind... (I feel like Yoda.)

The amount of Orks you can have is limited by your Banners. The amount of tech you unlock is limited by banners.

If you have 5 banners, you have a cap of 60 POP. You can build 60 POP of Orks. If all 60 die, you can build 60 more.

There is no Waaagh. There is no Pool. Nothing replenishes. You are making this more complicated than it really is.

[SoundWave]

as orks i like to spread out early and set up a good base for income later on. you start off with a slugga squad which is great since it beats other races scout units that they will make to capture things. so i've been toying with this, i build 1 slugga squad then 1 more at the HQ and 1 more at da boyz hut. now you have three units out there capturing points. i only build posts on a few then stick to building buildings that help me tech up(and power plants)as soon as i have the resources i build my big mek. when i feel i have enough squads(sometimes those 3 can be) i'll go looking for some trouble. all the while teching up in my base and upgrading listening posts to keep my builders free to build things (never more than 2 grots)

[Voyager]

Ok, so when the red resource number is 0, and I have 0 orks, but a 60 pop cap, that should mean I can build more orks, correct?

I ask, because I cannot under that situation, a situation that happens quite often if I am not extremely careful against losing orks.

Harry Voyager

[SoundWave]

i dont really understand what you're saying, i believe you can't build guys when that number is at 0, tho that number really shouldn't be at zero. i usually stop making guys when i have 4 groups. tho i just got owned by space marines like 2 or three times in a row do to their focus firing on my big mek while my guys couldn't close to melee for some reason :( so maybe make an extra squad of shootas to help you out then just tech up and fortify a bit, all while probing/attacking them with your 4 guys by bringing them all together after grabbing some points. you should be able to take them early on if you can get into HtH so get that kustom teleporta

[Vertigo]

SoundWave, please stay on topic. Don't talk about strats, we are strictly talking game rules here. You'll just confuse things even more.

Double Post


Ok, so when the red resource number is 0, and I have 0 orks, but a 60 pop cap, that should mean I can build more orks, correct?
Harry Voyager

Those are the Waaagh numbers, they do NOT exist. IGNORE THOSE NUMBERS. The RED numbers do NOT exist.

Look up and to the right, at the ORANGE numbers. The top one is the POP number. ONLY THIS NUMBER MATTERS.

Examples:

If you see 14/40 (orange numbers), you have used 14 pop out of your current cap of 40. You can purchase 26 more pop worth of Orks. You also will have unlocked any tech with a pop requirement of 40 or less.

If you see 50/50, you have maxed your pop and cannot build any more Orks. Build more Banners to up the cap.

[metalfan666]

uh, question so tech is unlocked by max pop, and not how many orks you have. I'm probably wrong, but i thought that tech was unlocked by actual pop.

[IronJesus]

Ok, so when the red resource number is 0, and I have 0 orks, but a 60 pop cap, that should mean I can build more orks, correct?

I ask, because I cannot under that situation, a situation that happens quite often if I am not extremely careful against losing orks.

Harry Voyager


If you've played WarCraft III (and I think just about everyone has) you can understand this system. In WarIII you could only build as many units as you had farms (or ziggurats, or moon wells or whatever) when you built as many units as could be supported you had to build more farms. This is the same system that the orks have to live by. You start out with a baseline supply line, and to increase this number, and thus your maximum supportable ork population you have to build Waaagh! banners (aka farms).

Whew! I hope I got that right (help me out here Vertigo.)

[Mindf*ck]

SoundWave, please stay on topic. Don't talk about strats, we are strictly talking game rules here. You'll just confuse things even more.

Double Post



Those are the Waaagh numbers, they do NOT exist. IGNORE THOSE NUMBERS. The RED numbers do NOT exist.

Look up and to the right, at the ORANGE numbers. The top one is the POP number. ONLY THIS NUMBER MATTERS.

Examples:

If you see 14/40 (orange numbers), you have used 14 pop out of your current cap of 40. You can purchase 26 more pop worth of Orks. You also will have unlocked any tech with a pop requirement of 40 or less.

If you see 50/50, you have maxed your pop and cannot build any more Orks. Build more Banners to up the cap.

I can understand what Voyager is trying to say. I have had the same problem with the orcs.

My population was 89/100 and i wanted to reinforce my squads. But i couldn't because, to reinforce a squad with one you had to have 35 req point and 1 ORK RESOURCE. And when i looked at my ork resource is said 0 +14. but it stayed at zero. So my pop. limit would let me reinforce. But i couldn't because i didn't had any ORK RESOURCE.

So you can talk about ignoring those numbers but warhammer does use them and does need them

[SoundWave]

ya that ork resource is very important, i still dont fully understand it but i've never had a problem with it. its just like power or any of that except on a much smaller scale. it is made from waagh banners and is used everytime you make a unit i believe.

[Stymie_Jackson]

Mindf*&%*$ck is kind of right...although what Vertigo is saying is far simpler and for most intents and purposes it is fine, ork resource does matter.

Try this experiment...at the VERY START OF THE GAME, you have 5 ORK POP out...that's a squad of 5 sluggas and a grot.

You start with 10 TOTAL ORK POP. So you should be able to pump another slugga squad and grot, right? You can't in the first few seconds...

Why? The ORK RESOURCE increase to match AVAILABLE POP over time, but as Vertigo says, it is rather quick.

So the +X number is how fast (I don't know really how fast, it's kind of arbitrary) youe ORK RESOURCE goes up to AVAILABLE ORK POP (available meaning how many orks you can build without more Waagh towers going up). The number AFTER the +X is ORK RESOURCE.

Too stupidly complicated, not explained, and real stupid. Good work Relic, I guess you were due to make something totally ass-backwards eventually.

[Svensta]

The main thrust is that:
ork pop getting wasted = no impact on teching and building.
waagh banner getting wasted = massive impact on teching and building

The red numbers have ONE purpose. They control the speed at which the amount available first comes online.

26/50 pop with +14.

You can build another 24 orkies, but only when the red limit rises to 24. The plus controls how fast that climbs. But it is always decent and never anything to worry about save when you are losing towers. Then you might want to worry, but since it is also dropping your pop caps you are worrying already.

[Vertigo]

I can understand what Voyager is trying to say. I have had the same problem with the orcs.

My population was 89/100 and i wanted to reinforce my squads. But i couldn't because, to reinforce a squad with one you had to have 35 req point and 1 ORK RESOURCE. And when i looked at my ork resource is said 0 +14. but it stayed at zero. So my pop. limit would let me reinforce. But i couldn't because i didn't had any ORK RESOURCE.

So you can talk about ignoring those numbers but warhammer does use them and does need them

Sounds fishy to me. Let's get down to details here. If your Ork resource said 0/+14, your pop was 89/100, and resource STAYED at zero, it's a BUG. Flat-out. Since it's never been reported, AFAIK, in the last 7 weeks, I think you are mistaken.

First off, how long did it stay at zero? If it stayed there for just a few seconds, that's most likely due to the DoW's corpse system. In DoW, you don't actually get pop slots back until a dead unit has completely faded away. So, if you are up against the cap, you can't replace a dead unit the second it dies.

If it stayed at zero for more than a few seconds, it's a bug, and can be disregarded for this discussion. Also, if no-one had recently died, and it stayed at zero for longer than .71 seconds, it's also bug. A +14 rate gives you one resource point every .71 seconds.

My advice remains the same. If you are confused by the Ork system, use my simplification. Better a simplified system you understand than a full system you don't.

Once you get comfortable with playing Ork, read that post I linked earlier, as that explains the whole system.

And as the previous two posters have explained, the simplification works because the +rate is very fast. (Unlike early beta, where it started at +0, I kid you not.)

[Bard]

uh.. tech is keyed to number of orcs, not number of banners, though the banners affect it indirectly because you need the banners to get the orcs.

[SoundWave]

obviously you haven't read this topic LOL tech is dependant on banners.

[gravity]

I don't know why Relic had to make the Ork resource system so damn complicated/confusing that 95% of people don't understand it, whether they think they do or not.

[Blackened]

uh.. tech is keyed to number of orcs, not number of banners, though the banners affect it indirectly because you need the banners to get the orcs.

in a word, this is wrong. you can have ten orcs and still be able to build a killer can/sqiggoth etc, you only need the banners to unlock the tech and sometimes an orky fort.

eg. mad dok requires 41 pop (i think) if you have 4 banners = 40 and the starting orc main building = 10 (total 50) you can build the mad dok reguardless of your ork population.

This is to stop you having to mass orks when you want to get a killer kan, when the other sides can just tech to them.

[Vertigo]

eg. mad dok requires 41 pop (i think) if you have 4 banners = 40 and the starting orc main building = 10 (total 50) you can build the mad dok reguardless of your ork population.


46, not 41. Although there's no effective difference, I'm just being picky. :nana: