Lack of early counters to heavy infantry?

[Gong]

hey guys, I've been playing orc almost exclusively since release, and have been encountering significant difficulty in dealing with space marines/chaos space marines, due to the fact that I haven't been able to come up with any counters to heavy infantry. obviously Nobs do the job very well, but they don't become available until rather late in the game.

the only luck i've had is early harassment with Big Mek, but he is still vulnerable to concentrated fire from static D. I was thinking maybe using flamers to break the morale of enemy troops, which has worked decently well in my previous attempts. still, there ought to be something better out there. anyone (especially ork beta players) have any ideas/solutions?

[JediNeophyte]

hey guys, I've been playing orc almost exclusively since release, and have been encountering significant difficulty in dealing with space marines/chaos space marines, due to the fact that I haven't been able to come up with any counters to heavy infantry. obviously Nobs do the job very well, but they don't become available until rather late in the game.

the only luck i've had is early harassment with Big Mek, but he is still vulnerable to concentrated fire from static D. I was thinking maybe using flamers to break the morale of enemy troops, which has worked decently well in my previous attempts. still, there ought to be something better out there. anyone (especially ork beta players) have any ideas/solutions?

The problem is Orks did fine in beta. A good number of Slugga Boyz could hold their own against Marines, but it seems choppaz got the nerf bat or something. I use burnaz to break morale (they also count as power weapons in CC), but like you said they're not that great. Orks are screwed early game against smurfs, and by midgame they'll have dreadnoughts, whereas the hideously expensive tankbustaz are difficult to obtain when you've invariably lost the early game advantage.

[SoundWave]

i realy dont think flamers count as power weapons in CC as the guy just sits there and butts people with it just like HB.

[JediNeophyte]

i realy dont think flamers count as power weapons in CC as the guy just sits there and butts people with it just like HB.

Burnaz, not flamers. They are distinctly different weapons. If you watch Orks, you'll see da Burna Boyz torch their enemies in CC, as burnaz are used by mekboyz as cutting torches and are modified to unleash gouts of flame like a flamethrower.

[Gong]

Burnaz, not flamers. They are distinctly different weapons. If you watch Orks, you'll see da Burna Boyz torch their enemies in CC, as burnaz are used by mekboyz as cutting torches and are modified to unleash gouts of flame like a flamethrower.

so, clarify more on the burna. does this weapon exist in the game? is it gained by researching the "more burny" (or whatever it is called) at the pile 'o gunz ?

[TheLoneKnight]

Ork Sluggas were turned insane in the last beta patch, so don't listen to these people ranting about the nerf bat.

Sluggas & Shootas( Especially if you have the Big Shoota..it works disturbingly well against..well..pretty much anything..)

Otherwise, simply mob up and outnumber 'em. Get a bunch of small slugga mobz and try to engage every unit they have in CC. Then run in a bunch o' shootaz and clean up. And don't forget to overwatch your slugga reinforcements... It really DOES help. O_o

[f0nx]

wartrack anyone ? good aggainst infantry early on, can be upgraded for anti tank with the rokkits mid game, and can serve as decent arty in a pinch

[Rakgath]

I find that the best way to deal with Heavy is to be able to get into combat with them. Ork slugger boyz own in HtH combat as you know so a quick way to get them in is by using the Big meks kustom teleporta. Pack a slugger squad full o dudes early on and attach the bigg mek. then get to more orc squads and fill them on the way to the fight once you see the Heavy Infantry teleport the main pack behide and charge in the other 2 squads.

[Gong]

I find that the best way to deal with Heavy is to be able to get into combat with them. Ork slugger boyz own in HtH combat as you know so a quick way to get them in is by using the Big meks kustom teleporta. Pack a slugger squad full o dudes early on and attach the bigg mek. then get to more orc squads and fill them on the way to the fight once you see the Heavy Infantry teleport the main pack behide and charge in the other 2 squads.

slugga boyz are only marginally better than space marines in HtH, generally not enough to make much of a difference. wartrakks don't really cut it against heavy infantry. when you are playing against space marines or chaos, almost EVERY enemy unit you will encounter is heavy infantry. your only hope seems to be trying to get early dominance over resources by aggressively pushing towards his resource points. however, on some maps this is not possible due to the sheer size of the map, and on others most resources are located in or immediately adjacent to home base.

I played another round of games tonight, and going for mass sluggaz w/ burnaz seems to be the most effective thing. using small squads (usually just the initial 4 squad members) seems to be much more effective, as it lets you field more burnaz, have more nob leaders, and also reinforce your army faster.

wartrakks are a decent solution, until your opponent starts to pack rocketLaunchers, which will generally kill your wartrakks in a very short period of time.

having a squad or two of boyz equipped with rokkit launchers also seemed beneficial, mostly for the knockdown effect.

getting the big Mek into melee combat immediately made a significant difference, since he will destroy them damage-wise as well as scatter their troops a bit.

[Vertigo]

slugga boyz are only marginally better than space marines in HtH, generally not enough to make much of a difference.

I disagree totally. Used properly, Orks slaughter SM in CC in the early game.

Anyway, here's what I advise:

0) The golden rule of all Orks: LOTS of small squads. Always and forever. NO BIG SQUADS. The bonuses are many, the drawbacks almost none.

1) Orks will far outnumber in SM in both units AND squads. They also reinforce far faster. With a little skill, you can lock up every squad an SM player has into CC, as you will always outnumber him.

2) Get Kustom FF early, as a 33% reduction in ranged damage helps a lot when closing into CC.

3) Nob Leaders are critical, but only after you hit a solid mass of Orks. I typically don't worry about Leaders until I've built about 36 Boyz (6 squads of 6) plus the BM and Grots. Nobs Leaders only work with the Mass to back them up.

4) Screw the heavy weapons. Early on, that money is better spent for mass numbers. The default Choppa is a monster in CC, and CC is where you want to be, so forget the Burnas/Flamers and Shootas. Just as with Nob Leaders, heavy weapons only work with a Mass to back them up.

5) If you use my advice, you will unlock Doks relatively early, SO USE THEM! On top of the healing bonus, you get the UBER Fightin Juice. If you play lean, you'll unlock them very quickly(it only takes 4 banners). I cannot stress how powerful Fighting Juice is. You ain't see nothing until you've seen 4 Ork squads remain immortal for 10 seconds. Nasty.

6) Avoid the FC. Dance away from him until all other SM units are dead. If the FC starts wailing on your BM, teleport it out. Do not let the BM die, as the Kustom FF is critical. You'll likely never be able to kill the FC, but that's fine. Just kill the other troops, and the FC is impotent.

7) Cycle squads in and out to keep them alive. If a unit gets close to breaking/dieing, break it off to reinforce and recover. Since you outnumber your enemy, this can be done one squad at a time without any major risk.

8) Choose your upgrades VERY carefully, the only must haves vs. SM early are Kustom FF, Kustom Tele, Bigga Choppas, and 'Eavy Armor. I use them in the order given, but some people grab Choppas last.

9) Microing is key. Reinforce in battle using TAB and R, not the mouse. Unlike all other factions, Orks are managing lots of little squads. Orks are more micro-heavy than any other faction, so hotkeys are very important.

10) If caught unawares by Dreads, you can quick-upgrade your squads in place to Rokkits. Glad you saved those heavy weapons slots! If you see it coming, build new squads dedicated to solely Rokkit duty (TBs or normal Boyz, either works).

To sum up, I advocate a lean, low-tech approach to Orks:

MASS (about 35-40 boyz), then:
4 Doks, then:
all Nob Leaders, then:
all that other teching and heavy weapons stuff.

Get your numbers up early, keep the pressure on. Doing so prevents your opponent from sitting back and teching on you. If they tech they quickly run out of troops and lose. Go for map control. It's impossible to tech up to Dreads when Ork are attacking you constantly. :)

This approach takes a lot of micro, some planning, and lots of practice. But, with practice, I find it insanely potent. I've found no general purpose Ork strat that works better in a 1v1.

[Gong]

woo, I was hoping you'd show up with some good advice :p

yeah, I have been getting Kustom FF early, the usefulness of it is immediate and significant.

I am still getting used to the hotkey system in this game. I used to play War3 on a semi-competitive level, so I'm very much used to microing my units in battle. That being said, I'm still learning my way around the controls in DoW, so certain tasks are giving me a bit of trouble. I tend to manage my sluggaz in one control group, my shootaz in another, big mek in a separate one, etc. but when it comes time to remove a squad from battle, I still haven't figured out the quickest way to isolate that particular squad, remove them from the fight, and then re-define my control group so that the squad doesn't return to battle the next time I give an attack order.

the steps you suggested are roughly what I have been doing, except I have been completely neglecting the Doks, which now sounds like it makes a huge difference.

The only other immediate question which pops to mind is concerning heavy weapons. Let's say I get surprised with a dreadnought or two in the field. What are the differences (if any) in effectiveness when it comes to deciding whether to equip sluggaz, shootaz, or tankbustaz with rokkit launchers? does the damage on the weapon remain the same, regardless of squad using it? I know that tankbustaz have the ability to equip the entire squad with rokkitz, but having already stressed the usefulness of utilizing small squads, this isn't much of an advantage. do tankbustaz have an innate damage bonus against vehicles, or would a squad of 4 rocket-toting tankbustaz do the same damage as 4 shoota boyz with rockets?

[hiteche5]

Vertigo...you get best post award!

I tried just the things you described and my games really improving...never bothered with doks before but fightin juice gives you a definate edge when breaking that front line.

[Vertigo]

Thanks for the kind words, guys!


That being said, I'm still learning my way around the controls in DoW, so certain tasks are giving me a bit of trouble. I tend to manage my sluggaz in one control group, my shootaz in another, big mek in a separate one, etc. but when it comes time to remove a squad from battle, I still haven't figured out the quickest way to isolate that particular squad, remove them from the fight, and then re-define my control group so that the squad doesn't return to battle the next time I give an attack order.


There's no truly elegant way to do this. What I do is always have ALL my squads selected, so I can watch them all at the same time. I call this the "big picture approach." I don't much watch the actual battle on the main screen. I judge the battle by watching my squad readouts instead. When a squad needs to be cycled out, I double-click on the squad, and click about half a screen away from the battle. That's far enough they won't re-engage unless someone chases them. I immediately key my CTRL group to get back to the big picture after that.

Also remember that, if you have multiple groups (say, Boyz on #1 and TBs in #2), you can key "1, SHIFT-2" to select them all at once to watch the big picture. Don't save this as a new group, just use it to maintain situation awareness.


What are the differences (if any) in effectiveness when it comes to deciding whether to equip sluggaz, shootaz, or tankbustaz with rokkit launchers?

In terms of Rokkits, it doesn't matter who carries them, they do the same damage and have the same accuracy. TBs cost roughly 40% to carry the same amount of Rokkits. Either solution can work, it depends on what you need:

Pros of TBs:
More efficient use of pop, as 12 TBs can carry 12 Rokkits. Always use groups of six for TBs.
Can cloak, making them the commando units. Great for hit n' runs on bases.
Far stronger health, making them more effective vs vehicles using anti-infanty guns.
Can use TB bombs, which simply rock.
Can MELEE vehicles, doing roughly the same damage in CC as they do with Rokkits. You read that right, TBs can CC non-walker vehicles and CRUSH them.

Cons of TBs:
Costs more.
Not as good at CC vs infantry as Boyz.

In the past I advocated that TBs often weren't worth the extra cost, but experience has changed my opinion here. I really like them now, and prefer them to Boyz with Rokkits. The flexibility they provide is nice.

Here's my opinion. TBs are superior IF you can use them properly. Until you master Ork, TBs aren't worth it. If you are an advanced player, TBs are simply awesome.

Oh, and put any Rokkit-equipped troops on RANGED stance (F7).

[SoundWave]

I just got back from playing my first few online games, i believe i won 8 and lost 1. i almost NEVER build shootas. I just dont really like them i guess. i may build 1 squad or more but that was actually the game i lost. since orks can fire their heavy weapons on the move(rokkits too?) i usually just give each slugga squad 2 burnaz and a big shoota. this gives them a great HtH advantage as they flame them while closing to HtH and apparently work well in HtH. and the big shoota just makes the squad a bit more shooty.
Usually the games are over before i even get wartrakks and again the game i used them is the game i lost. they are so weak and just dont seem to pack enough punch. the artillery is cool but not when you want to be in HtH with your guys, the big shoota just isn't good enough to even compare to the landspeeder. haven't had any late game experience online tho. so i dont know about nob squads or any of that for online.

[ramza85]

Haha, you're the man Vertigo!

Your post earlier complete wat i ALWAYS do as an ORK player...
Though i never had the chance to practise it against a human player, it works magically well against com...
I am still holding on to the DEMO version cos the retail game aint reaching my shore till this weekend...
About that tactic... I won most game in under 14 minutes, fast game setting and only had up to 3 DOK... but they sure help to turn the tide some time... always small squads.. set auto-training of slugga to overrun the com..

[Blackened]

it seems that there are only advantages to going for smaller squads: field more heavy weapons
faster reinforce
not soo bad if squad breaks etc.....

i swear it mentions in the manual that numbers give orc better morale, has anybody noticed this, coz it would make sense for larger squad to stay in the fight and smaller squads to break easily, has anybody noticed a difference in morale in relation to squad size???

[Rakgath]

How effective are Shoota Boyz wif Big Shooters against Heavy Infantry??? and are there n e other gunz that are woth gettin in a back up squad to support slugger boyz??

[MagiTek]

How effective are Shoota Boyz wif Big Shooters against Heavy Infantry??? and are there n e other gunz that are woth gettin in a back up squad to support slugger boyz??

Big Shootas are pretty good against Heavy Infantry, but the problem is that they're so damn expensive. 40 req/30 power for ONE gun, equipped by a 175hp light infantry unit. Not even close to worth it if you ask me. You're better off using Burnas early on, and grabbing lots of Wartraks in the middle game.

[LORD ORION]

I've been trying to get my Ork game as Strong as my SM or Eldar, and is just a real pain in the ass. Orks simply have too many short falls for them to be equal to your SM or Eldar games if you know what you are doing.

I personally think that lots of small squads IS NOT the way to go against a good player, because he can concentrate fire and break them easily one at a time, You are also in big crap with small squads if he is good at using grenades.

What are some good ideas?

1)Definetly fighting juice. Yes, really, most people dont use it, but it is your most potent weapon. It is really the only way to beat a FC or Far Seer backed up with multiple squads.

2)Big Mek with Kustom Force Field attached to a large group of close combat types. You can absorb an insane amount of firepower, which is key to part 3

3)Follow the Big Mek mob with multiple shoota boyz squads, this is where your killing power must come from. Dont follow too closely, you want the enemy's second line of shooty units firing at the big mek squad and not at your firepower.

4)Stik Bombz, use them, they make a big difference when facing weapons that need to be deployed like heavy bolters. Enemy gets knocked down, and then needs to redeploy before shooting again, combine this with the dammage the force field can soak up and fighting juice ability, and you can out live your enemy.

Even with this, you are still at a pretty big disadvantage. All your early ork units have light armor, and every side has easy/cheap access to anti-infantry weapons when they know what your race is. The way waagh works really screws you up in the 1st few minutes of the game, expect to always be outgunned by someone who knows what they are doing during the "rush" phase.

[Vertigo]

I personally think that lots of small squads IS NOT the way to go against a good player, because he can concentrate fire and break them easily one at a time, You are also in big crap with small squads if he is good at using grenades.


Extensive testing has shown otherwise. You can break a squad of 15 Orks in the same amount of time as a squad of 5 Orks, when at range. In this example, it takes 3 times longer to break the smaller squads.

Grenades are the same. Smaller squads take less or equal damage from grenades, due to the smaller clumps.

This is on top of all the other, MASSIVE advantages that small squads have. For instance, Entangle is much less effective vs. small squads.

[Stymie_Jackson]

I don't think it is the size of a single squad that affects orkie morale...I've had a 14-15 big slugga mobs break. I think it is number of squads in close proximity...when you have over 4 squads they almost never seem to break. But the above is not extensive testing by any means, just my observations...I back it with the fact you can teleport a big mek mob deep into an army and they can break quick if the foe uses flamers. But if that mob attacks on foot surrounded by boys, they just don't seem to break as easy...

[Vertigo]

But if that mob attacks on foot surrounded by boys, they just don't seem to break as easy...

One reason for that is that you can recover morale by doing damage, as I understand the system. So, assuming you actually get 15 Boyz locked into CC (hard to do given the pathfinding), they can be harder to break than 5. Not 3 times harder, tho.

[MadJackMcJack]

Even with this, you are still at a pretty big disadvantage. All your early ork units have light armor, and every side has easy/cheap access to anti-infantry weapons when they know what your race is. The way waagh works really screws you up in the 1st few minutes of the game, expect to always be outgunned by someone who knows what they are doing during the "rush" phase.

Yea, but you get rewarded with the best later-game side. Hordes of Boyz with 'eavy Armour can really put a crimp on an opponents day. Now, if only Kanz weren't so slow... ;)

[Crackpot]

I don't know if it has been said but think of the reinforcement:
If you have one squad with 15 orks, you can only reinforce one ork at a time (if this squad is losing orkies). If you have 3 Squads of 5 orks each, you can reinforce every squad, so you can get 3 orks at the same time for reinforcement. AND you can order reinforcement as soon as the battle begins, because their sqads aren't full... :bandit:

[Blackened]

dito

this is an advantage they have over the other sides, because you have an ork cap, not a squad cap, thus allowing you to mass the heavy weapons/faster reinforce bla bla bla

and above all else, if you only remember one thing, "Hold da pin, throw da other bit....." :beer:

[doomicon]

Vertigo, AWESOME POST!

I've focused on same things (BM, FF, Doks, Fightin Juice and H2H) with much success. My only difference is using large mobs. The small squads you suggest DO WORK BETTER, but my micro skills are not yet up to par to manage the small squads in pvp.

[LORD ORION]

I guess I worded my post poorly

I still use lots of little shoota squads, but during the start of the match, 1 large group of sluggas attached to big mek with kustom force field is far better, then say 2-3 slugga squads. It's there to absorb firepower, and it does very well. It is also how you deal with a seer council rush as Orks (spread the shootas out and blast apart the far seer while the large slugga group + big mek take on the seer council evenly). Although Orks suck, they are the best race for dealing with Seer Council + Conceal rushing.

As for grenades vs small squads, well placed grenades can knock an entire small squad on the ground, allowing the enemy to bypass you and engage the rear units, like shootas, you are protecting. This doesn't happen with the big mob, you knock 4-5 members down with a grenade, and there are still several standing blocking your movement.

It's the same thing with concentrating firepower, you can collapse 1 of the small slugga squads rapidly, and then get into the rear and engage the shootas with the hole you made.

[Vertigo]

As for grenades vs small squads, well placed grenades can knock an entire small squad on the ground, allowing the enemy to bypass you and engage the rear units, like shootas, you are protecting. This doesn't happen with the big mob, you knock 4-5 members down with a grenade, and there are still several standing blocking your movement.

It's the same thing with concentrating firepower, you can collapse 1 of the small slugga squads rapidly, and then get into the rear and engage the shootas with the hole you made.

Ah, but I don't care about that. :) Actually, I don't even HAVE rear units. I've currently settled on all Sluggas, all the time.

Since Big Shootas cost SO much, trading ranged shots is simply not viable in the early game. So after thinking about it, I decided to try all Sluggas, no heavy weapons, and do NOTHING but CC. This enhances the only advantage Orks have. It works amazingly well. Screw the heavy weapons is my current philosophy (at least until mid-game).

As far as the SC, does a 15-Ork squad really work better than 3 5-Ork squads? It's an interesting idea, I'll have to test that someday...

[Slappy042]

1 large group of sluggas attached to big mek with kustom force field is far better, then say 2-3 slugga squads.

I believe that the Kustom FF is an area affect, not a "squad affect". Once I've researched the FF, I can see a little (pink/light red) circle around the feet of all my orks that are near the Big Mek. I think that is the visual indicator of the FF.

Assuming that the pink circle is indeed the FF, this means that anyone within about half a screen's radius of the Big Mek is protected by the FF. Therefore, you can make several small slugga squads follow him around and they all have the FF bonus. The only time you want a large squad attached to the Big Mek is for taking advantage of his teleport ability.

[LORD ORION]

It's a targeting thing,