Assualt Marines mauled in CC by flamers [Archive]

Sixhits

27th Sep 04, 1:03 PM

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this, but units engaged in melee can still FIRE their weapons.

Yesterday, after getting my rear handed to me repeatedly all day, I decided to try something new. Assault Marines, and in numbers!

I did a unique build order -- the game was a 3v3 game. I built:

Servitor
Scout
Oringinal Serv -> built Barracks
Second Serv -> built Second barracks

Scout units caps nearby. Build a FC. One more scout.

Once two barracks are up, LP nearest cap and build an Armory (god, am I getting all the names wrong>)

Churn out Assualt Marines. ASAP melta bombs.

I was lucky to have a tough ally, who massed large numbers of orks. I was able to mass three full strength squads of AMs, and we rocked around the map together. I made an aborted attempt to blow an enemy's barracks, but he moved troops back and I retreated.

Nor here's where it get's dicy. I held the center CP. I held it lightly and got knocked out. But I had in my possession five AM squads, with Vets, at full strength, with meltas. I also had equally well stocked marines squads with MLs (2 each) and the FC. One scout unit left, with flamers. One melee dread, one ranged dread.

I countered at the center. Masses the AMs near enough to jump enmass behind his troops, while positioning my marines to push up via the front.

The front went well. Enemy focused on them. Then the AMs jumped in. FIVE full strength squads!! On top of Range Stanced ML/HB/Flamer units.

In a word, I was destroyed.

My AMs were within seconds broken by the flamers. I was able to keep them alive, only barely. But what I remember clearly was seeing my AMs slicing the enemy marines while the enemy poured flames on me ----- in MELEE!! If you are supposed to be able to use assault weapons like flamers in melee then let my AMs have some flamers!! Jebus!

I was so friggin pissed. I had finally done something right -- jumping AMs on top of ranged regular marines and I was brutally beaten... in CC.

Bah.

Dagg

27th Sep 04, 1:56 PM

um...whats a Jebus?

Well in this game one unit can't pwn all , you cant just mass AM and expect that you will kill off every thing in patch just coz they are expensiv compared to marines. And yes , few focused flamers do break melee easly but they got creamed by ranged. So I guess every slayer got its own slayer

Farseer Cohinor

27th Sep 04, 2:02 PM

Nameless

27th Sep 04, 2:16 PM

It is stated in another Thread that they will look into the "Ranged stance combat bug".

Right now Marines with heavy Weapons (Heavy Bolters) Rip my Banshees to bits even when i dished them out with a Falcon Transport right into the heart of the enemy.

The enemy just stands there happily firing while they slash and hack with their swords :)

Definatly a bug and not intented to be like this.

greets
CohinorSome call it a bug, I call it realistic. If you had a huge ass bolter what are you going to do if a dude runs up with a sword and tries to cut you? If you answer swing it around at them and try to bonk them on the head your a freaking dumbass. Hell no stand your ground and pump them full of lead it makes perfect sense the melee units just need to be tougher they shouldn’t make the guys there attacking tards that ditch guns for knives when the enemy gets sorta close.

This always pissed me off in a table top as well.

Stymie_Jackson

27th Sep 04, 2:20 PM

If the game was all shooting it wouldn't be fun...they intentionally make CC more effective than reality (yeah, and orks and eldar are real as well so the game should be mirroring real life, NOT) both DoW and TT.

And if some dude is smacking your head with a club you aren't shooting him, you are blocking and clubbing him with your rifle back. You can't get a shot off with a rifle if the enemy is in your face or even grabbing your rifle, can you? A pistol...yes, and pistols are included in close combat.

But this F2 bullshit is a bug and everyone is abusing it now.

D2F

27th Sep 04, 3:39 PM

Some call it a bug, I call it realistic. If you had a huge ass bolter what are you going to do if a dude runs up with a sword and tries to cut you? If you answer swing it around at them and try to bonk them on the head your a freaking dumbass. Hell no stand your ground and pump them full of lead it makes perfect sense the melee units just need to be tougher they shouldn’t make the guys there attacking tards that ditch guns for knives when the enemy gets sorta close.

This always pissed me off in a table top as well.
Well, first off, comparing a game to real life is kinda stupid.

But when you do it, at least get the facts straight.

If you get charged by someone with a melee weapon, you better shoot him while he is running at you. Once he is close, you will never, ever get your weapon to bear on him, again. Unless it is a pistol (pistols are awesome melee weapons).

If you are holding a rifle, he will just keep your barrel to the side and cut you open.

A friend of mine once told me a rifle was superior to a sword and when i didn't agree with him, he wanted me to prove it. So, he got out his rifle, 2m away from me and he gave the starting signal. I just had a normal sword. We tried it 15 times. He never hit me. He never was even able to get the weapon to bear on me.

You cannot use a rifle in melee other than as a replacement for a poor polearm weapon.

So, please, keep comparsons to realism out of the discussion. There is a reason why bayonets where used.

D2F

f0nx

27th Sep 04, 3:44 PM

was he trying to shoot at you with a real live gun, or was it one of those nerf guns ?!?

First And Only

27th Sep 04, 3:45 PM

Rifles are worthless in CC, even bayonets are sub par.

You're better off whipping out your knife, or if you're somehow fortunate, you have a sword or pistol.

In close quarters, the sword beats the guy with a rifle. This is a well known military fact, and why certain units in some militaries in the world come equipped with close combat weapons.

If you were jumping into an enemy held trench, for example, you'd thank the Emperor you have a sword while your enemy only has rifles. The procedure is simple, parry the rifle, and they're dead.

Pistols work fine though, but have limited ammunition.

Sixhits

27th Sep 04, 4:06 PM

Some call it a bug, I call it realistic. If you had a huge ass bolter what are you going to do if a dude runs up with a sword and tries to cut you? If you answer swing it around at them and try to bonk them on the head your a freaking dumbass. Hell no stand your ground and pump them full of lead it makes perfect sense the melee units just need to be tougher they shouldn’t make the guys there attacking tards that ditch guns for knives when the enemy gets sorta close.

This always pissed me off in a table top as well.

I call it unrealistic. If I run at you with a big chain sword and you have a clunky heavy bolter, AS I RUN AT YOU you can blow me to pieces, but, when I get in close I swing my big chain sword at you. You'd better try to block it or I'm gonna chop you up. Hence, it is rather unrealistic (not the least of which to say, unfair) that you get to keep shooting me while I chop at you. Why is it called hand to hand combat? Because you have a sh*tload of trouble using guns while I grapple you.

Hence my immense annoyance at seeing my five AM squad get torn to pieces in close combat by concontrated heavy weapon and assault weapon fire. I know the MORALE loss was flamers, but the death was HBs.

It really, really cuts the effectiveness of CCB troops. What's the point of building AMs when they get beaten in CC by heavy weapons teams?

I used this to my advantage in a later game. Very late in a take and hold mission (a long slogging 8 player FFA) I had, I think, eight vanilla marines decked out with various heavy weapons, with a perponderance of MLs and HBs. My Ork opponent was like a green wave. Frankly, all I had to do was walk my troops into his troops. He'd get into CC... and die. He'd stick and move... and die. He'd attack from three different directions at once... and die. I was grotsque. I think I lost perhaps a half dozen individual marines in the final countdown.

I think, in general, melee needs to be more effective. I should not have been able to hold against meleed Orks. I should have at least suffered causulties!

Deadeye

27th Sep 04, 4:21 PM

J23

27th Sep 04, 4:35 PM

I find this story to be totally...bizarre.
Good, then I am not the only one :argh:

Dagg

27th Sep 04, 4:54 PM

Yo-jim-bo

27th Sep 04, 5:41 PM

an armored marine that can take alot damage even from tanks , with a big freaking gun should drop it and reach for a knife just coz other guy landed near to him and is swinging a sword? A SWORD? he can be hit by a missile , fly a 100 meters , survive the impact , get up and start shooting again but yet somehow he should be fearing a sword :argh: nice thinking

and that story about rifle vs sword , yeah nice one

Weren't you playing attention HE DOESN'T HAVE A CHOICE!
If your a tactical marine and you try to bring your gun up to shoot a marine with a sword he will just knock it away, then slash at you. If you can push him away and get time for a shot, then by all means do so, but as long as he's in close you have no choice but to fight him at his own game.
P.S. Sorry for being loud earlier :argh:

Oggsmash

27th Sep 04, 5:46 PM

Dagg

27th Sep 04, 6:08 PM

Weren't you playing attention HE DOESN'T HAVE A CHOICE!
If your a tactical marine and you try to bring your gun up to shoot a marine with a sword he will just knock it away, then slash at you. If you can push him away and get time for a shot, then by all means do so, but as long as he's in close you have no choice but to fight him at his own game.

well fortunatly AM dont knock guns away. And if I was about to fight a guy with a sword with my knife...well i would take my chances with a gun. and one more thing , i dont think that you could even pray out gun with a sword from someone whos wearing such a powerful armor.

p.s this whole post is just getting funnier nad funnier :D

Mortis

27th Sep 04, 6:12 PM

Uhm...guys...n' gals....

READ THE RULES FOR THE TABLETOP game...end of discussion. No ranged combat in CC. This is Warhammer 40k, not Let's Make A Deal 40k.

Enuff a' dis' torkin' let's git ta der fightin' !!

~ Mortis

SammyRuts

27th Sep 04, 10:19 PM

well fortunatly AM dont knock guns away. And if I was about to fight a guy with a sword with my knife...well i would take my chances with a gun. and one more thing , i dont think that you could even pray out gun with a sword from someone whos wearing such a powerful armor.

p.s this whole post is just getting funnier nad funnier :D

Guess you missed the part where the AM carry Chain swords, you know swords designed to penetrate armour. If they were carrying unsharp pieces of iron your point would make sense. However, they aren't. So your point doesn't make sense. In fact, it's just flat out wrong.

[Loki]

27th Sep 04, 10:42 PM

i personnaly never use am.. cause they die too easily.. maybe cause i always send them into the heart of the battle.. but wtv lol

i was fighting eldar... and his reapers were raping my sm TS... so i sent in my AM right behind the reapers to kill them off since they are supposedly bad at CC/H2H... anyways he had banshees and guardians around.. and not even 5 seconds had they landed.. their moral was broken.. and i couldn't even jumpact them out of the situation.. they simply froze there and died withing the next 10 sec.. which kinda threw me off.

and it's not the first time i try to retreat a unit.. yet they stay frozen in CC.. :(

-Loki

Fat007

27th Sep 04, 11:08 PM

Gerog

28th Sep 04, 9:20 AM

Get
Over
It

Read the damn rules and live with it..
The game is based on the TT game, so its pretty damn obvious most of the rules and gameplay are going to be transfered.. such as... you guessed it, close combat

Sixhits

28th Sep 04, 12:18 PM

I have had heavy bolter troops on stand ground get into melee, and though they didnt try to melee their "Charge up" time kept re-setting as they were getting hit so they didnt fire either. The rifle troops did fire though. It also seems to me the ranged damage is less when shooting troops from a melee range, with the exception of flamers, they seem to do just fine still.

Are you sure you were in melee with the actual HB squads or were you in melee with the Flamers as the HBs were firing?

I am not sure exactly the number of enemy units, but here's a rough break down:

4-5 Marine squads with various heavy weapons: HBs and Flamers mostly.
I dropped my full strength, Vet Sarge AMs on top of them. They were stanced hold area and melee.

At the front, I rolled Dread, a FC, two marine squads and one or two scouts w/flamer. This force was intially the target of the enemy fire and was able to occupy an errant Dread. They all took the brunt of the enemy counter attack.

Dropping Assault Marines on top of Heavy Weapons teams, even if they do have flamers, should result in a win for the Assault Marines. I jeted in five squads -- so we had a rough parity in numbers. But AMs are sick melee troops vs vanila marines, and I dropped them *into* melee! I mean, what's the point of having assualt troops when they get spanked by ranged units in melee, cause the ranged units can still fire? The game's all shooty!

And as for the guy who posted about being locked into melee...

You know, I've noticed that too. My melee units get reamed in CC and THEN are LOCKED in place. It's the worst of both world's.

God, but I love jetpack troops... :( wish they worked

Raguen

28th Sep 04, 2:25 PM

READ THE RULES FOR THE TABLETOP game...end of discussion. No ranged combat in CC. This is Warhammer 40k, not Let's Make A Deal 40k.

There's few things DoW has that the TT don't have, like...fire with heavy bolter two guy in front of you, one guy of your squad and one guy of ennemy squad, the bullets only touch and wound the ennemy guy (the flammers only burn ennemy then they spill fire on all the guy in the area). :nana:

Forget the realism, like say before it's a game, in rts, balance come before all other concerns. :bandit:

ir0nside

28th Sep 04, 4:50 PM

I find this story to be totally...bizarre.

That's because he is making something up to sound cool.

It's not working.

No offense, you tend to have nice ideas and all, but keep the fantasy in Warhammer where it belongs.

I'm a member of the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism), and am quite adept with various types of martial weaponry. It's quite possible to shoot someone with a long barreled firearm at close range, if they are trying to swing a heavy (chopper style, ala Ork) axe at you - you just have to have a small modicum of intelligence to do so.

In your made-up setting of combat between you and your "friend", your "friend" must have been rather ignorant. You don't have to hold the rifle up to your shoulder, take aim, and fire. You can hop back, with the rifle retracted to the waist at it's midpoint, and fire off a round point blank, quite easily - against a heavy axe weapon.

Blah, blah, blah. Useless argumentive discussion, just felt the need to be a bastard in my first post. =)

Finaldeath

28th Sep 04, 4:52 PM

I'm pretty sure that if a single unit is not engaged in melee, and has a cirtain stance, then they will fire back with thier gun (I think with penalties, perhaps) regardless.

In the beta, I am pretty sure ones that were attacked directly got thier knives out, therefore, it will be changed later, and no need to go on about it.

I pretty much like the shooting in combat...but thats me, I think flamers do pretty much more damage when you're next to someone (morale wise and otherwise) and I'd cirtainly not draw out a knife if I had one of those....

But heavy weapons (reloading ones especially) are totally different.

However, I'd never compare the game to the tabletop rules, nor to real life, its really up to relic and that :)

Anyway, that situation can occur if my first statement was true, and I am pretty sure it is, that ones not in combat themselves (being attacked) can fire back if they are on stand ground, and ranged stance. (while currently, if they are in those two stances, anyone will fire back rather then fight, which is annoying in a lot of ways).

Note also how people set to stand ground never fight back regardless of thier melee/ranged/everything stance? My commander, when I don't want him running off getting killed, never attacks back with his big melee stuff, which I find particulaly annoying.

I guess they are all related, and will get fixed. I'm having fun with space marines (assault ones included) in the singleplayer game (playing insane of course).

ir0nside

28th Sep 04, 5:05 PM

I would like to note however, that regardless of my above comments - I do not believe units should fire their weapons in melee combat, but should rely on their melee weaponry. That gives a decided advantage to races whom are primarily melee oriented (read: Orks) when in melee; it also forces players to play smarter - you can't just hunker down your Heavy Bolters when four squads of Orks are hacking at your unit. Time to move, and deal with setup time if you chose to engage them again (if you manage to create distance between you and them, which is unlikely due to the nature of chasing Orks).

n0z3k1ll3r

28th Sep 04, 5:28 PM

Bye bye to my days of SM dominance... Ah well it makes sense :P

Oggsmash

28th Sep 04, 11:05 PM

It is not a bug. Apparently the shooters in HTH suffer a very large accuracy penalty. It should be large enough to make shooting highly ineffective, but the problem I think is that Flamers hit so long as the target is in range and suffer no Acc penalties. I was wondering about this because I had a squad of Plasma marines get reamed by a small squad of raptors, though I was standing ground and firing I wasnt hitting jack. This is as it should be and apparently the Acc penalty was hurting me.

I guess they may change the flamer to make it less effective at CC range (if squad is engaged) but Relic rep on the main forum says the Acc penalty is what is supposed to happen to Stand ground troops in CC.

Spliffacus

29th Sep 04, 1:12 AM

i am curious never got to play the beta was this stand ground bug in beta version as this seems to be the whole point of this topic thats why SM assault seem worthless at the moment on the table top they own with back up from tatical squads.

Hubert

29th Sep 04, 2:28 AM

I never use AMs. They are useless, the broke easily cos enemy squads usually have a flamer. They might be useful against scout squads or weak spots, but their cost is too much. Not to mention you can't attach any unit to them, no FC, no apothecary, no melee upgrades, nothing. They are just req points thrown out the window. :)
I use my SM squads in ranged stance even in CC, they are more effective that way.
Veteran squads would be a nice replacement to them.

PS. Flamers should be just as useless in CC than other weapons, because you are doing the same damage to yourself and your teammates. Noone would use a Flamethrower in CC, IMO. Hand to hand is chaotic, so with any ranged weaon you have a high chance to hit your own team. But that would require a real polygon based collison system, which is not possible with that many units. (It would freeze any processor, just like dynamic lighting calculation does)
So, i the flamer does not have accuracy penalty in CC that's bad, and should be fixed. The effect of hurting your own team might be simulated with having lower defense (lower armor value) if you use ranged weapon in CC.

n0z3k1ll3r

29th Sep 04, 3:00 AM

Is this absolutely certainly a bug? I know it makes no sense but... well... look at the intro movie. A Burna and a Heavy Bolter being used in CC.

Hubert

29th Sep 04, 3:07 AM

Yeah, but ingame the CC battles are more tightly packed, while in the intro you see more scattered units.
When a AM squad ambushes your SM, they are all in a one squad area, whacking each other.

PS.
In this case, using ranged weaponry (except maybe pistols) would be suicidal. Hence, a drastical armor drop or a good attack bonus for the AM would simulate well what would happen to a ranged squad IRL. Of course, they can switch to HTH, but because the are mainly ranged, they would be defeated anyway, unless they outnumber the attacker.
The best startegy for ranged units in most RTS games is to retreat while firing, or doing what the supposed to do: attck from a distance. While I like how DoW has a more visceral approach, letting any squads to melee, certain things should still be respected.

-_Phoenix_-

29th Sep 04, 4:50 AM

It is not a bug. Apparently the shooters in HTH suffer a very large accuracy penalty.

[snip]

...but Relic rep on the main forum says the Acc penalty is what is supposed to happen to Stand ground troops in CC.
Your getting mixed up. Units which are engaged in CC can be fired upon by other units not in CC, with a severe accuracy (i.e. damage) reduction. Units engaged in CC should not be able to use ranged weapons at all.

http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=576437&postcount=4 - Its 100% a bug, wasn't in beta but is in the full game and the demo AFAIK. It'll get fixed.

Oggsmash

29th Sep 04, 7:04 AM

I am not mixed up on this, The following quote is from Chavez on the main discussion board regarding this very issue.

Interestingly this isnt a bug as originally stated.

However what does happen is that whenever a unit is being attacked in melee, their ranged weapons accuracy is modified to ensure they cant hit the broad side of a barn. Its basically not in your interest to leave these units on ranged in that situation. If you can keep the ranged unit away from the melee unit (by micro running them) then the moving unit will not be modified, but will suffer a different accuracy penalty for movement.
__________________
andrew chambers
game designer
relic entertainment

FatFish

29th Sep 04, 7:13 AM

God, I feel like I'm trolling or something..

On the first page of this thread, someone stated that IRL it would make sense to shoot someone swinging a sword at you in close range.... Doesn't work man, even in real life.

A pistol, yeah. It's possible, in fact thats why you see AM and Leaders using their pistols in Melee. But a rifle.. No. As someone that -has- real life experience with such issues, it is quite impossible to fire your weapon at someone that doesn't even give you enough room to bring it to bear. Knocking him out of the way RL (In game.. frags anyone?) will likely give you plenty of time to double tap him.

(On the Jebus note: I don't know what some people call him, but on WWII Online, he is more fondly known as the Jerbil Jesus.. Yes, it is spelled wrong, but it stuck.)

Chris

29th Sep 04, 7:34 AM

Interestingly this isnt a bug as originally stated.

However what does happen is that whenever a unit is being attacked in melee, their ranged weapons accuracy is modified to ensure they cant hit the broad side of a barn. Its basically not in your interest to leave these units on ranged in that situation. If you can keep the ranged unit away from the melee unit (by micro running them) then the moving unit will not be modified, but will suffer a different accuracy penalty for movement.

Well if it isn't a bug then it's horribly broken, because units firing at point blank range when being engaged in close combat shred you to pieces.

Oggsmash

29th Sep 04, 8:26 AM

In my experience most ranged weapons are poo in melee;they are far less effective, BUT flamers seem to still hit the same and wreck morale, that I think will need fixing. As for the sword at close range, anyone noticed that the marines carry carbine weapons (except for the Missle launcher and HB) about the size (proportional) of an MP-5? Swat + Spec ops like the MP-5 because you CAN shoot someone at close quarters with it. I agree you probably would not even attempt to shoulder a full rifle in CQB, but it seem the marines are armed with shorter weapons to allow for this.

And no in real life you wouldnt shoot a guy with a rifle 2m away with a sword, but in real life if he is running at me across an open field with his pals I seriously doubt he will cover the 200m (easy range for any modern battle rifle) before I kill them all. Since the ranged weapons are for the most part no where near the range of "real life" weapons I say we keep any arguments in the realm of game balance and leave the real life stuff out, since in real life we would have masses of guys with pistols and swords dead at 100m away.

-_Phoenix_-

29th Sep 04, 8:41 AM

Oggsmash

29th Sep 04, 9:35 AM

Heh me too, i just went with the last message I read. Personally I dont mind the guys shooting, even if they do NO damage, mainly because it seems easier to disengage them and they dont run at every squad within 5m brandishing knives on stand ground. But as I said earlier, the Flamer still hits, an easy fix would be to make the flamer miss when the squad is in melee.

Vertigo

29th Sep 04, 11:32 AM

Oggsmash - I'm going to sit this one out TBH. We've got the lead designer/developer sayings its a bug, then an other developer saying its intended, even though it would go against previous posts and interviews.

* -_Phoenix_- confused.

I must have missed that latter post. Do you happen to have a link to a Dev saying it was intended? Our, at least, remember which Dev said it?

nodachi

29th Sep 04, 7:47 PM

A friend of mine once told me a rifle was superior to a sword and when i didn't agree with him, he wanted me to prove it. So, he got out his rifle, 2m away from me and he gave the starting signal. I just had a normal sword. We tried it 15 times. He never hit me. He never was even able to get the weapon to bear on me.

You cannot use a rifle in melee other than as a replacement for a poor polearm weapon.

So, please, keep comparsons to realism out of the discussion. There is a reason why bayonets where used.

D2F
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LemannRuss

29th Sep 04, 7:50 PM

The ranged stance thing is definitely a bug. For one, the devs have said as much in other threads. For another, it's not true to the tabletop, and this game seems to make a good effort to preserve the concepts from the tabletop. In the TT, once you're in CC range, you have to use a CC weapon, period.

Now what would be cool, is if DoW could model the Space Wolves' "True Grit" ability where they can use bolters in close combat :) Expansion pack? Codex Space Wolves mod?

Oggsmash

29th Sep 04, 7:58 PM

No not all the devs said it was a bug, quote above is directly from Andrew "chavez" Chambers, a developer and he said a huge acc penalty is what is supposed to happen when marines in stand ground and ranged combat are in melee. I am guessing though that something the devs may not have intended is the result when you have a group of flamers in HTH and they are in stand ground and ranged, they tend to auto hit and break units like crazy.

Mortis

29th Sep 04, 8:23 PM

Concerning the assault marines, please note I'm still new to this game, and have only play warhammer fantasy battle and Necromunda, not Warhammer 40k per se, though I'm assuming it's a lot like both. I'd also like to point out that I've never really used assault marines but rely on steady upgraded SM's for all my games.

Wouldn't it be good tactics to use an assault marine squad like I've seen the Eldar SC used? fast moving, neutralize enemy SP's as well as jump into combat, jump them out, jump back in. Hit and run guerilla tactics rather than a pure "melee till all dead" kind of thing? Would take some micro managment, but heck, I think it should work. Keeps the enemy dancing, you got a squad he's gotta keep track of, and all the while, got the rank and file pouring in the fire. Toss in a small mobile force of scouts with flamers, and it's all good. Well, in theory anyways, I'm only conjecturing here.

CONCERNING FLAMERS: In the tabletop games, flamers use teardrop shaped templates. There's no roll to hit or anything like that. If you're in the arc of the flame template, you're hit, end of story.

Got any questions about propane, or propance accessories?

~Mortis

Nameless

30th Sep 04, 8:12 PM

Well, first off, comparing a game to real life is kinda stupid.

But when you do it, at least get the facts straight.

If you get charged by someone with a melee weapon, you better shoot him while he is running at you. Once he is close, you will never, ever get your weapon to bear on him, again. Unless it is a pistol (pistols are awesome melee weapons).

If you are holding a rifle, he will just keep your barrel to the side and cut you open.

A friend of mine once told me a rifle was superior to a sword and when i didn't agree with him, he wanted me to prove it. So, he got out his rifle, 2m away from me and he gave the starting signal. I just had a normal sword. We tried it 15 times. He never hit me. He never was even able to get the weapon to bear on me.

You cannot use a rifle in melee other than as a replacement for a poor polearm weapon.

So, please, keep comparsons to realism out of the discussion. There is a reason why bayonets where used.

D2FI'd bet my left nut you just made this up.
And seriously sure you might cut me up in melee BUT honestly would you drop a gun and try to stab someone with they attack you with a sword? I say again anyone that drops a gun to try and fight someone with a sword or knife is a dumbass.

Read militarily reports about close combat as well to see your dead wrong. For instants in one famous battle in Korea a group of marines charged a Chinese position with bayonets. This is one of the most famous example of a charge like this since WW1. They overran the Chinese and engaged in very close range combat with them. Despite this the After action reports clearly show that 3 times the number of Chinese of where killed by rifle shots then where by stab wounds and many of the stab wounds seem to have happen AFTER the Chinese had already been shot.

And these where Semi automatic full length battle rifles made of solid steel and wood not a modern collapsing stock assault rifle that’s made half out of plastic that one can easily swing around in a manner not dissimilar to a large pistol. A bolter is also closer to a SMG in appearance then a rifle and Marines are supposed to be immensely strong I’m fairly sure they could weld it as a pistol/SMG in melee fairly easily. A HB would be more of a load but they could certainly weld it with far more agility then a human with say a GPMG could. (Never mind a plasma gun or flamer we see them holding those up with one hand where just standing around idly.) I thinks there’s even a rule in the table top called true grit with which a character can weld a bolter as a pistol in melee I further think that some normal humans have this which means the bolter can’t be super heavy and hard to weld.

The last time swords of bayonets where the main killers in any battle close or not was in the seventeen hundreds. Most people now a days don’t even see the need to carry the bayonet it’s mainly used to instill aggression in troops during training it’s not really intended to be used in action.

Like I said I agree melee needs a bit of and edge I don’t however think they should get that edge by making the unit they attack retards that pull knives to try and fight off guys with swords and pistols who are eager to the enemy into close combat.

The Collector

1st Oct 04, 10:17 AM

There's a picture of a Storm Trooper guy with a bolter-quite a bit bulkier then your average MP5. I'll upload a photo once I get the chance.

Oggsmash

1st Oct 04, 10:39 AM

3zekiel

2nd Oct 04, 9:35 PM

Look, here's the deal...

We are attempting to project our notions of "realism" onto a game involving the Powers of Chaos, eight-foot-tall 'Space Marines,' green-skinned aliens called 'Orks,' and ethereal extraterrestrials called 'Eldar.' Hard-core realism has absolutely no place here.

THAT BEING SAID...

In the context of this game, if there's only, say, four stormboyz in the middle of a group of eight Space Marines, mathematics tells us that four of said Marines would be able, due to the intelligent tactics of their brothers, to fire their guns (at point-blank range) at these green-skins. And, likewise, if eight stormboyz jump on only four Space Marines, the Marines will be mobbed and unable to use ranged weapons. Let's remember, as so correctly pointed out by Nameless, that the last time melee weapons decided a battle was three centuries ago. 480 centuries are supposed to have elapsed by the time of W40k. Melee's powerful enough, and any nerfing to be done ought to be in favor of ranged squads.

SirCanealot

6th Oct 04, 11:45 AM

The game should just be like the TT battle.
Yes, the game is not the TT battle, and yes the game does not follow many of the rules of the TT battle. However, there has always been 2 main aspects of fighting in most of Gamesworkshops TT games:
Long range combat
Close range combat

To completely disreguard Close Range combat like this is completely insane, and should definately be considered a bug, even if the persons shooting at the people charging suffer penalties. Close combat charge = enter into close combat.
That is all.

ShortyMcNostri

6th Oct 04, 5:21 PM

Bulkier? sure. Longer (proportional to the 7ft marine holding it) no. And length is the limiting factor in CQB with firearms. Fact is I want my troops to keep firing in stand ground, I dont care if they change the penalty to make every shot miss. I just want the marines to fire up to the last second and they are easier to disengage if they are not fighting melee. Hold ground they seem a bit too eager to melee and are a pain to pull out once they pull the blades. I dont want to fire and do the same damage in melee I just want to be able to disengage quicky and get that last second's worth of "good" shooting rather than have my eager marines pull knives when the enemy is still 4m away.

Oggsmash brings up a valid point.
The big difference between having them engage in CC and remain ranged is that they will not have to setup their weapons again and they will stay locked in place instead of chasing the enemy with their knives.
Personally, I don't care wether or not they engage in CC per se as long as they are unable to use their heavy weapons with any degree of success and suffer the "setup" time when exiting CC, but I would like them to remain locked in place when the enemy disengages.
What is likely to happen by having them switch to CC is that they will follow the enemy as soon as he attempts to move out as if you had given them a "Melee Attack" command; if this can be avoided and the troops disengage on their own as soon as the enemy exits CC, then I'm all for it, otherwise I'd rather they keep shooting with no accuracy.