Seer Council balancing [Archive]

Gunsaint

28th Sep 04, 10:28 AM

As i've read b4.. i think non-eldar players simply need to micro better.. as eldar requires such a skill. And with only a small % of players playing the eldar race.. they havec much more time to adapt and find counters to CSm/SM/Orks... while it is vice-versa for the other armies. I believe once the game has been out for a month or so.. and more will have played agaisnt eldar repeatedly.. then ppl will find methods to counter the SC effectively.. and that i believe will only be achieved through out-mirco-ing the eldar opponent.

I agree completely. I have seen to many replays where the non eldar has only basic units and doesnt bother to upgrade, complaining to the eldar player about how much of a cheat/noob/whatever derogatory thing you can think of. Think up strategies. Upgrade to heavy bolters, build assualt marines to tie the council up, maybe bring snipers to bring down thier morale. There are other things I havent thought of yet, but you see my point. Simply expecting a squad or two of marines or sluggas or whatever to be uber units as soon as they pop out of thier barracks is just being stupid. Think of strategies, do not remain ignorant of this fact. :sniper:

Shadow_Slayer

28th Sep 04, 10:53 AM

I Think that early game, the Seer Council is very neccessary to the eldar players, but they get a bit on the cheap and broken side when they come at you in large #'s. I'm ok with them being so powerful becuase I don't treat the Seer Council as Infantry, I treat it as a second hero concidering thats the closest thing Eldars get to one. The Avatar just takes to dang long to get to and other races have things comperable to the Avatar anyways. What I've suggested is to keep the Seer councile the way it is right now, but stick a lower squad cap on them early game so they can keep there power, but they can't come at you in rediculous #'s. There the only Decent CC unit the eldar have, and as much as I love Banshees, they just die to incomeing fire WAY to easily. (Personaly I WANT my striking scorpions dang it!!!) But with the Squad Cap, you should be able to reserch Increasing it at the Soul Shrine, that way you fix the 14 man early game Seer rushes, but also keep there versitility as a good CC unit late game through additional upgrades. Unfortunatly someone pointed out that to do that you probably have to go into the base code of the game. witch whould take forever. But my programing friend says it is Entirely possible thing to do, WITHOUT altering the Base code. Depending on how they constructed the game. He pointed out how if you had to mess with the base codes of RTS' to get new upgrades or mess with the units, almost half of the Mods of Warcraft 3 such as Tower Defence whould not even exist. So can a relic guy or a programing guy care to tell me if this is a feasable request to make. Becuase I honestly beleave that this is the farest way to balance out the Seer council without giving the eldar SEVERE disadvantages, or make them even more broken.

Becuase I thing making Mobilize for war a prereq, cheaper, and faster to put out will open up a whole new can of worms as far as balance is concerned. The reson it takes so long right now is becuase its pretty much the Eldars Tier 2 upgrade. The Support platform is a quazi tier 2/3 upgrade. But the thing is that if you can get Mobilize for war out sooner, then everyother race will cry foul becuase eldar vehicle rushes whould become the new problem with them. As it is right now, Eldar vehicles come late in the game, because, frankly, I've noticed that there just better then the other races vehicles of simmilar design. I think the last thing we need to do is trade in Seer rush's for Fire Prisim rushes.
I like the 3 Aspect stone Prereq thing. This seems a bit more feasable then the Mobalize for war prereq. But the problem right now is that the only other choice of CC for the eldar are the Howling banshee's. And frankly, they fall apart against the two types of space marine forces, there moral is weak, they die VERY easily, and they only do above AVERAGE damage for a close combat specilizing unit. It seems to me that an Assault marine squad can tear through them pretty easily. So if we get rid of Early Seer councils, it pretty much means that as soon as an army gets into CC with an eldar player, they lose.

Eldar players NEED early seer councils. Its there only good CC choice. There cheapness comes when they get into large #'s. The problem is that late game, eldar players need those large #'s to counter Assault squads such as Possesed marrines (Wich kick early seer rush's butts early game) Thats why I've said if the programers can, make it so when you do a hero upgrade, it increases the maximum squad count on them. And keep the intitial squad cap low. Oh, and so inexperianced players can stop complaining, the way you tear through seer coucils is by treating them as heros, Isolate them by killing there support, get some heavy weapons and plasma weapons becuase you should treat them as heavy infantry, once there Isolated, get your non heavy weapons squad to act as a meat shield and dance with them, and let your heavy weapons commence to slaughter them. DANCING IS KEY TO WINNING AGAINST SEER COUNCILS. I frigin hate people who complain about them, becuase they never dance with them. Any GOOD eldar player is famliar with this term, becuase frankly, Eldar as a race require REDICULOUS amounts of squad micro against almost any foe. I think other races have to start becoming familiar with danceing. God knows marrines ONLY have to do it for Seer councils, while eldar pretty much has to do it with everything.

BRAINoff

28th Sep 04, 11:24 AM

Slayer: show me how decreasing cost for MOW and increasing cost for vehicle building for same amount would speed up vehicle tech. yes, no?

saying that eldar NEEDS SC and has no other choice is just BS. that means that eldas right now has just ONE SINGLE TACTICAL OPTION for every game. cool ! awesome! with that you perfectly prove by yourself that the SC MUST be changed. dont prove yourself wrong in your own explanaiton.

and anyway. all this whining about 'oh noes if we cant cheese with the SC we are doomed!' if the SC is tweaked bit people will just adabt and find many other powerful playstyles. but thats maybe too much asking for most :p

Barnsy

28th Sep 04, 11:45 AM

SC are basically a necessary hero for the eldar, as FS is poo at cc, FC, CL, and BM are far superior in CC than FS. Thats why they need the SC, remove the SC, and what do the eldar have to tie up units in CC?

[Loki]

28th Sep 04, 11:56 AM

that's why the can't be nerfed... but their numbers in which they can grow too early in the game is a bit much.. but then again.. i'm sure in no time ppl will have found ways to counter them effectively.. and then next we'll have another uber unit which ppl will complain.. and it'll simply go on like a vicious cycle :(

so i say stop complaining.. and play to develop new strategies.. cause soon enough.. DoW is gonna be like many other games where players use the same old strats.. over and over.. like AoE/AoK with the flush (feudal rush) which everyone does.. thus it's the one who can master is first that ends up winning.. kinda of sad.. but that's how games are now a days.. why i prefere FPS personally

-Loki

BRAINoff

28th Sep 04, 12:17 PM

eldar dont need any CC to survive. they have entangle.

SentrySteve

28th Sep 04, 12:37 PM

']i think non-eldar players simply need to micro better. I believe once the game has been out for a month or so.. and more will have played agaisnt eldar repeatedly.. then ppl will find methods to counter the SC effectively.. and that i believe will only be achieved through out-mirco-ing the eldar opponent.

-Loki

I agree. Less posts complaining, and more time spent ingame trying to counter the SC might be a more wise way to spend your time.

Fable

28th Sep 04, 3:33 PM

as i said before:

-make mobilizing for war a prerequ for SC
-make MOW cheaper
-make vehicle building more expensive for the same amount MOW has been made cheaper

problem solved

That is the best idea I've heard!

EO_Sandman

28th Sep 04, 3:54 PM

I can't really say if the SC is overpowered or not, but I'd really like it if Banshees ccaused a bit more damage vs infantry. As it is, I'm finding it difficult to justify the points for them.

Shorn

28th Sep 04, 4:28 PM

How about this.

Keep the SC as it is. Make it available later in the tech tree(like other latter tech commander units).

Buff up banshees.

Make shuriken cannons(used by dark reaper seargents, the platform and the Vyper) into shriken shreaker cannons like they are in the TT(the easy way would be to make them cause lots of morale damage, but there might be other possibilities as well).

So we calm the qualm(heheh) over the SC.

And provide some fairly early lethality and morale damage to keep the others off their backs.

Uhm... I have no idea whether or not the SC is unbalanced or not. I would just like to see the banshees used more, and the shuriken cannons made into shuriken shreaker cannons like they are supposed to be...Because they are cool.

MrCeeJ

28th Sep 04, 4:41 PM

Even if the SC is powerfull there are a number of downsides to it: eg without conceal they get shot alot, they cost LOADS for a full squad (see what SM or Orks get for the same cost) and there is only 1 of them, leaving the rest of the map without any viable close combat troops. Try fighting on 3 fronts with the eldar and microing the SC at the same time is not easy.

Like others have said b4: Bring out the Striking Scorpions as an alternative choice and let the SM etc work out for themselves how to kill/neutralise the SC.

Lt. Hill

28th Sep 04, 4:46 PM

Sorry to a few of you who are saying the "this issue is sorted already" type thing but after browsing the replay forum i noted that EVERY and i mean E V E R Y eldar game replay there is some serious SC complaining going on and i had to ask fellow Eldar players how it is for them. thnx for the responses so far. Personaly i was hoping HBs would be a bit better and that the SC squad cap would be decreased to bout 8-12 rather than 15. if HBs wer better it wouldnt even be necesary to have such a large SC. but thats my thoughts and maybe relics already tesetd that and it didnt work..

Sandanjuu

28th Sep 04, 5:01 PM

Do you know why Seer Council is broken?

It is the ONLY SQUAD IN THE ENTIRE GAME that remains combat effective while broken.

A broken seer council, even without witchblades, can decimate 3 tactical squads with heavy bolters.

Why? I have no idea. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I honestly believed they would resolve this before release, obviously I was wrong.

God's Hitman

28th Sep 04, 5:19 PM

like i said in another thread:

"although many people say SC is too powerful (they are VERY powerful, but i think these people are just moaning because like many people, when they get beaten they blame it on something other than themselves), i think they're quite balanced. without them (and especially without them in the early games), the Eldar can defend against other rushes, but then Eldar would be hanging on a very thin thread. it's possible, but much more difficult than what the Chaos and the SM have to deal with. with SC, Eldar has an effective way of defending and attacking. personally i dont think users of other races will ever be happy until they see Eldar totally weak and useless."

the only thing i think should be done about the SC is their numbers. having 15 members is insane and i think that is the main problem. by limiting them down to around maybe 5-6, and then have an upgrade available which allows them to reinforce back to 15 after the Mobilise for War research sounds good to me. if you make SC ONLY available after the MFW research, it's just too drastic b/c it makes Eldar very weak in the early game, but limiting their reinforce numbers solves early game "uber" rush unbalance. what do u guys think?

SoundWave

28th Sep 04, 5:19 PM

sometimes i seem to be able to beat the seer council without a problem and other times they just dominate, any idea which upgrade it is that really pushes them over the edge so early? maybe that is all that would need to be nerfed (or just the effect that upgrade has on them) is it the power weapons? or the extra armor? or what.

Raging Idiot

28th Sep 04, 5:26 PM

Conceal is the first upgrade that changes the seer council that much. They go from a very good cc unit that is vulnerable to ranged weapons to a very good cc unit that can almost ignore ranged weapons.

n0z3k1ll3r

28th Sep 04, 6:01 PM

I'm a marine player, and I personally dont have a problem with the SC, but as so many people do, how are these for ideas?

- Replace them with Wraithguard: just as hard to kill but good at range rather than CC, and slower. Also fits with fluff better.

- Require all three aspect stones before you can build them (slows you down a bit but not too much)

- nerf them a bit (not too much), but buff up eldar turrets so you can take a rush (the main argument why you cant nerf them)

God's Hitman

28th Sep 04, 6:36 PM

i think to fix the SC "problem", u cant add a new type of unit, Relic can only tweak what is there already.

Lt. Hill

28th Sep 04, 6:43 PM

I like Gods Hitmans idea with the reinforce to high numbers only after MfW is researched. Still think 15 is way too much though. The main reason i want some nerf to the no.s of the SC is so that banshees (hopefully with a slight buff) will be more usefull because right now they can do some things but who would bother with the SC filling in the role of CC eldar so well

n0z3k1ll3r

28th Sep 04, 6:45 PM

Theres a point. Lower unit cap for SC and raise it for Banshees.

EO_Sandman

28th Sep 04, 7:08 PM

Why not just require other upgrades to be used before conceal becomes available? That would make the Seer Council less powerful in the early game, and more of a mid game unit?

SoundWave

28th Sep 04, 7:21 PM

how does a seer council compare to a nobz squad? who would win 1vs1 fully upgraded? not counting abilities i guess.

TheDeadlyShoe

28th Sep 04, 7:33 PM

Conceal already got its cost boosted. It's fine. Getting out a seer council with conceal is a horrendous power drain for the early game.

Sandanjuu

28th Sep 04, 7:40 PM

how does a seer council compare to a nobz squad? who would win 1vs1 fully upgraded? not counting abilities i guess.

Does it really matter? Against a good SC rusher you'll never get your Nobz out anyways. You'll be lucky to get to tier 2.

Double Post

Conceal already got its cost boosted. It's fine. Getting out a seer council with conceal is a horrendous power drain for the early game.

Come on deadly, just stop already.
Who cares if it kills your power? YOU HAVE THE STRONGEST SQUAD IN THE GAME. You can just walk over and cremate them! Who needs power?

As I've said before, I do NOT CARE that the Seer Council is a walking embodiment of god. My problem lies in the fact, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it short of tier 3/uber units/a really stupid Eldar player.

Even if breaking the councils morale was the ONLY way to stop them, I would be all for it. Atleast it gives us an OPTION on how to stop a council. As it stands now, even broken, a conceal upgraded seer council will dominate nearly everything mono e mono, and most things in groups. You can test it yourself, get a friend, break the council with snipers and then have it engage 3 marine squads with heavy bolters (even on hold ground). The seer council will win everytime. Heck, you won't even lose that many, since reinforce will keep up witht he rate that you lose them!

Keep snipers firing into them, it doesn't make a difference.

TheDeadlyShoe

28th Sep 04, 7:43 PM

Orks have got to be the worst race to SC rush. Sheesh.

And you display the real problem here. You're trying to beat a seer council by killing it with bolters. Dumb. Melee bum-rush the seer council.

Sandanjuu

28th Sep 04, 7:46 PM

Orks have got to be the worst race to SC rush. Sheesh.

And you display the real problem here. You're trying to beat a seer council by killing it with bolters. Dumb. Melee bum-rush the seer council.

Oh ok, go figure, keeping the melee-strong seer council at range, stupid idea! My assault marines with less CC power and no capability to stop the seer council from knocking them around like ragdolls will kick their butts!

God forbid I use the weapon type that was DESIGNED to kill "Infantry" units. I mean, damn, that might be... STRATEGY.

TheDeadlyShoe

28th Sep 04, 8:03 PM

And the Seer Council is designed to be virtually invincible to ranged none-explosive weaponry.

Sandanjuu

28th Sep 04, 8:05 PM

And the Seer Council is designed to be virtually invincible to ranged none-explosive weaponry.

And apparently everything else. Go watch the Ir0nclad vs FirstandOnly replay, he uses assault marines, which get torn apart by Council mono e mono.
He even has marine sfiring into the council WHILE its being CC'ed and it does NOTHING.

The SC can just knock people back with their psychic powers then finish them off with their crazy strong pistols.

TheDeadlyShoe

28th Sep 04, 8:06 PM

He even has marine sfiring into the council WHILE its being CC'ed

That's the point, he should be melee-rushing the council with EVERYTHING. NOT firing into the melee.

God's Hitman

28th Sep 04, 8:14 PM

As I've said before, I do NOT CARE that the Seer Council is a walking embodiment of god.

correction, the Avatar is the walking embodiment of a god, the seer council is a bunch of warlocks who are basically the political presence of any craftworld.

and shouldn't you SM users be using flame throwers against the SC? one splash of that shit and my seer council's morale gets decimated and they start whining b/c their cloaks got burnt lol oh and SC is heavy infantry, so it wouldn't be very strategic to use normal infantry-specific weapons on heavy infantry.

TheDeadlyShoe

28th Sep 04, 8:23 PM

Yeah,but he was specifying that the seers were already broken by snipers, I think.

Yeah, I thought SC was heavy inf, but I wasn't certain since Dark Reapers got changed to infantry, after all.

Sandanjuu

28th Sep 04, 9:28 PM

That's the point, he should be melee-rushing the council with EVERYTHING. NOT firing into the melee.

This doesn't even make sense, how will this help? Your effectively reducing the damage output of your military. Only so many guys can be CC"ing a council member at once, so if you have two assault squads completely surrounding the seer council, whats the point of having regular marines standing in line ?

Not to mention, do you honestly believe its fair that a player would have to bumrush a seer council with 3-4 squads ? What about the eldars other squads? You know damn well they can get a couple of guardian squads at the start of the game and still SC rush. So now your effectively fighting a losing attrition battle.

Double Post

Yeah,but he was specifying that the seers were already broken by snipers, I think.

Yeah, I thought SC was heavy inf, but I wasn't certain since Dark Reapers got changed to infantry, after all.

Hense my gripe. I admit I mad ea mistake, I thought they were regular infantry too, I tried plasma today and it was about as effective however. It did a better job, but frankly, its just not cost effective nor do you get it early enough to stop a seer council rush. Even if you tech straight to tier 2, they'll be in your base killing your fc/squads while your upgrading to tier 2.

Like I said before, my only real gripe, is the fact that the seer council remains combat effective while broken. If they have witchblades its like they aren't even broken.

TheDeadlyShoe

28th Sep 04, 10:13 PM

This doesn't even make sense, how will this help? Your effectively reducing the damage output of your military. Only so many guys can be CC"ing a council member at once, so if you have two assault squads completely surrounding the seer council, whats the point of having regular marines standing in line ?

Well I think that relates to close combat mechanics, which I believe are more complicated than most games, but so far it's all guesswork based on data files i looked at in beta and in game observations.

Swarming in CC can be *really* effective, if you have enough. For example, 10-15 Space Marines can prove veeery troublesome for a Hero in close combat if they are swarmed all about them, in fact I have killed heros that way with barely any casualties. This is far more apparent in late game than early for reasons I am not sure of yet. I believe its possible that accuracy upgrades also effect melee accuracy. Sergeants also probablyplay a crucial role in this.

The heros counter for this are area-effect push attacks; while Warlocks have these, they can only do it in front of them and not that often. Furthermore, if you are really swarming them under, these will barely benefit the Warlocks. In fact, due to their execution time, you'll have 3-4 Space Marines whomping on the Warlock while he's not defending himself.

I'll test when I can but my schedule is in chaos. I'm mostly posting not from home when I'm bored. ;)

The thing about the guardians; I think that marines can virtually ignore guardians while meleeing a SC.

Although, a eldar player who is on the ball may choose to melee the Space Marines with his guardians if they have a Warlock.

Plan6

28th Sep 04, 10:25 PM

Ok this is silly, there must have been somthing else going on there, cause I HAVE NEVER SEEN THE SC TAKE THAT MUCH ABUSE......when broken. And I play the eldar, a lot. And this doesnt tell me the most important part of the story, how many members of the SeerC where their, cause if it was like 15, you not gunna kill that squad, with one squad of AssultM, your gunna need two and some support. And a full SeerC cost a TON of cash, which everyone forgets when bitching about it. At 70r and 25p that a lot of cash your fighting.

Tehfluff, I hate to break it to you, but the SC is HeavyInf. so bolters are not gunna kill it, cause they kill NormalInf. Get some plamsa online, or some flamers to break the SC.

And dont tell me the SC works while broken, I use it and know it dies, I admit a bit slower than other broken units, but I would never leave it in combat cause it cost to much

Plan6
-Play the race then tell me whats wrong with it

XavionDeosXIV

29th Sep 04, 1:51 AM

Ok guys...listen to me very closely..espically those of you who were in the beta.

THE CONCEAL BUG WAS NOT FIXED!

Thats why the SC seems overpowered. Conceal makes the SC virtualy indestructable against any ranged attacks against plasma. That, combined with the fact that SM/Chaos players won't have plasma in time to counter a SC rush, therein lies the "unbalance". The SC is basically a squad of slightly-more-powerful-warlocks. Conceal affects them too. The problem is that conceal stacks for the SC so they can take waaay to much ranged punishment from bolters/heavy bolters. Relic is aware of this bug and (hopefully) will have it fixed in the next major patch. Lets put this argument to bed guys. The people who are winning via 4 min seer rush are abusing a bug, plain and simple.

Oh, and about the power argument...it takes 225 power to get a SC out w/ conceal. It takes 200-225 (dont remember the exact figure offhand) power for SM/Chaos to get thier plasma weapons available, plus the SM/Chaos have to do their builds/upgrades 1 at a time wheras conceal can be researched while the council is being built, so don't give me this crap about power cost stopping an SC. with a proper build order thats easy to do. The problem isn't resourcing for SM/Chaos, its time.

Barnsy

29th Sep 04, 2:25 AM

OMG THIS IS GETTING LAME!!!
1: SEER COUNCIL IS HEAVY INF! BOLTERS ARE USELESS, USE PLASMA FFS
2: SEER COUNCIL WILL NOT BE CHANGED ANY MORE SO GET OVER IT AND TRY FINDING WAYS TO KILL THEM INSTEAD OF COMPLAINING! (there are many believe me, even early game)
sheesh, glad to get that out of my system...

Plus, as orc (which seems to be your problem) ill have you know you can get 2 sluggas for every warlock, without any power drain, and the BM costs half that of the FS, who sucks bull in CC. PLUS, orcs are naturally anti-rush because you're supposed to rush with orcs (free squad in the beginning, hello?) and they have turrets mounted on all you buildings. If you're getting hammered, just dance around...

TheDeadlyShoe

29th Sep 04, 2:29 AM

Xavion:

The conceal bug IS fixed. Conceal is now working as intended.

Lt. Hill

29th Sep 04, 3:02 AM

I tell ya theres summin EVIL about that replay section of this ere forum. Everyone gets pissed off and if eldar are involved get anti-eldar/SC. Oh well not EVERYONE in the reps section is an ass

Double Post

a bit off topic but o well

BlindvIper

29th Sep 04, 6:07 AM

does the seer council really need the witchblades to function? if they rush, they don't need them, i think. it just depends on how many marine opponents you have...

-|EoT|-Havoc

29th Sep 04, 7:23 AM

The main problem i think is the squad size, it should be eight or so maximum, cuz right now they are very tough, and there are often a lot of them.

FatFish

29th Sep 04, 7:31 AM

Question for some of the more 'elite' of the SC rushing eldar players.

Have you gone up against two squads of Marines, one with HBs one with Flamers + a (recently) detached FC? How did your men fare, did their Morale break fast?

Also, does anyone feel that instead of nerfing the SC's mad skilz and population, maybe just raising the time it takes to reinforce the SC by a few more seconds?

Personally, as a non-eldar player, I feel that they are pretty much fine where they are. I feel that it is mainly a situation that people need to work on figuring out tactics to defeat them.

LORD ORION

29th Sep 04, 8:22 AM

The only problem with the Seer council is Conceal, without it they aren't all that hot.

Just make conceal a tech that can't be acquired until mobilize for war research or somthing.

XavionDeosXIV

29th Sep 04, 11:16 AM

Xavion:

The conceal bug IS fixed. Conceal is now working as intended.

I beg to differ.

Take a look at some of the replays involving the eldar. If that isn't the conceal bug hard at work then wtf is it?! Conceal is still bugged. When conceal is researched, the only ranged weaponry that can even BEGIN to hurt them are plasma weapons, which are not available yet when a player does the quick council rush (by the numbers, and players of equal skill, it is IMPOSSIBLE for plasma weapons to be available by the time the council is out, hence the SM/Chaos have NO anti-heavy infantry counter.).

Ive played games where my SC absorbs obcene amounts of fire, even when broken, and they just wade thru it. Talk to Fenris or Mystic (who are two of the better Eldar players out there), they know EXACTLY what Im talking about. In eldar v eldar fights with some of the top players here, whoever best mircos their council wins every time. its because they take next-to-no damage from ranged attacks. Look at the replays, and youll see. Hell in those games the council is the ONLY UNIT THAT MATTERS.
Look at the replays. The proof is there!

Warlocks, on the other hand, work as intended. Further proof that council is still bugged and conceal is still bugged. It works EXACTLY as it did in the beta. Once conceal is fixed, the council will be balanced and all the nerfing suggestions will be moot. Ask ANY of the top players who play alot of 1v1. Theyll tell u the exact same thing.

The reason ppl are denying that this is a problem is because they LIKE the fact that there's a bug still in the game to exploit so they can mass easy wins. U ppl should STFU because your exploiting a bug since u suck and can't win with the Eldar any other way. Same goes for those who abuse the stand ground bug.

Fenris-X2

29th Sep 04, 7:41 PM

No marine or chaos has beaten me so far as Eldar except when I lost to JoseyWales ( Team Relic ) in the fun game after I won the beta tournament and I didn't research conceal in that game because its bullshit just like it is bullshit right now.

It has something to do with skill, but seer council is the ultimate example of a strategy which a newb can use and win most of his games and an expert can take it to the point where its practically uncounterable.

I've gotten a pure chaos a/c to top10 and I've found ways to beat Eldar with Chaos/SM but the fact is I'm using far more skill and effort to win that the Eldar is in newbing it up by abusing seers. I make 1 mistake and its over and most of the "counters" I've thought up with only work because most Eldar's haven't even thought about " what if my council + entangle isn't enough to win ".

I've also beaten every Eldar in the top10 at least once if not more and haven't lost to a single one of them so don't say I'm whining because I lose to Eldar.

Bulwark

30th Sep 04, 2:17 PM

Fernis-X is right. I am at the 1200s on ladder and only use SM. I have pretty even games with even some of the best Chaos, Orks, and other SM players. The only people i know I have no chance to win against is an eldar player who has any kind of understanding about the seer council. Seer council + Hero + Entangle = Game Over. Especially since it takes less than 3 minutes to get Seer Council. Guardians with Grenades and Dark Reapers are just icing on the cake. Oh ya FoF also helps. Did I mention that getting the SC is part of the Eldar's natural tech progression. So theres no damper on the eldar who builds them early. Ya their expensive, but theres nothing early game that can beat it if played right. You have literally MINI HEROES that can take ungodly amounts of punishment. THERE IS NOTHING I CAN FIELD TO WIN. Not even breaking morale will win. They continue to fight and continue to destroy everything.

I'm guessing most of these people who are defending the SC are people who don't play serious ladder or have never experienced a "VERY GOOD" eldar player while using another race.

I don't personally mind losing to someone who out numbers me, micros better, or whatever. I hate losing to the same massed "I WIN" unit over and over.

Reborn

30th Sep 04, 3:28 PM

I'm a noob at this game. So far I have won 5 out of 6 1v1 games using the SC rush. I have not used entagle though, only council. The one game I loost, I managed to loose my far seer early while on the phone.

The only game lasting more then 10 min was vs another eldar where he also went SC. I think Relic has to look into this. There are often complains about the SC in the chat room and it is not good for the sceen. When you have sc+council, which you can ger very fast, the enemy seem to need much higher tech to be able to hurt them.

God's Hitman

30th Sep 04, 3:36 PM

just a question, don't the SM/CM get plasma weapon upgrade options after they build an armoury? well why can't they get plasma weapons if that is the case? the Eldar also needs to get Soul Shrine (equal to armoury) in order to produce a SC, and this is when a CM/SM should already have churned out at least 1 squad of Space/Chaos Marines, so by the time Eldar finishes building the Soul Shrine, the SM/CM should also have finished building an armoury and have access to plasma weapons. is this not true?

DaSmurF

30th Sep 04, 3:42 PM

SC WILL NOT BE CHANGED, get that into your heads!
Plus, although eldar buildings are cheap, they are also pathetically weak...
Thing is, SC is 100% necessary for eldar as every other troop gets eaten alive in CC.

Course their essential....but as it is right now, their uncounterable. SC rush can own any other race. SC doesn't really need a nerfing...more like....a longer reinforce rate and less SC/squad. I'd say 8 is enough. 10 is wayy too much.

Reborn

30th Sep 04, 3:51 PM

just a question, don't the SM/CM get plasma weapon upgrade options after they build an armoury?

No they don't. They get flamers and heavy bolters. They also have to upgrade the stronghold to level 2 to get plasma.

Double Post

SC+council is avaible too early. The only thing the enemy can have at this time that can damage them is the hero. But the hero also dies pretty fast to the sc+far seer. Even if they manage to get plasma or dreads the game tend to be decided already.

PenguinX

30th Sep 04, 4:17 PM

I am glad to seer Eldar players stepping up to admit the problems with Seer council. I currently play Chaos mostly, and their is little to nothing I can do to stop Seers. My two options are this

-CSM w/ Chaos Lord and kill everything but the seers(hero guardians) then pour all my req into killing them. I will upgrade I've tired the heavy bolter upgrade it works decent, but not well enough. I have also tried flamers, and broken the hell out of the seers, but it does nothing. The problem with that is that w/ conceal or fleet of foot....they are just about unkillable.
-PSM rush w/ Chaos Lord + CSM squad on the way, this works occasionally when Seer abusing newbs forget to grab entangle first. Then the CSM's will help me kill the guardians they have left before they can entangle. PSMs and CL can gank the farseer, but killing the seers is iffy cause they will normally run away if their damage isnt upgraded. This doesn't work against good eldar players.

I personally think seers need to be
A. More expensive. 240 for seers, cmon...my possessed marines cost 300/100 and a seer squad can take a psm squad(not taking into account chaos lord or far seer)
B.Increase reinforce time, by the time you kill 1 seer another 1 has already reinforced(of course this is because of conceal).
C.Remove fleet of foot or nerf conceal substantially.

Critta

1st Oct 04, 6:18 AM

Not sure if this one has already been suggested, I have heard a few ideas in here, but none of them seem quite right. There has been a lot of talk of putting the SC after the MfW upgrade. This has the diadvantage that the Farseer cannot stand up to a Chaos Lord or FC on its own. Allow the SC to be built as soon as the Soudl Shrine is up.

However, my suggestion would be this, make MfW a prerequisite to research the conceal ability. This way, the SC would not be quite so feinishly hard early on in the game.

Just a suggestion, what do you lot think?

Double Post

A. More expensive. 240 for seers, cmon...my possessed marines cost 300/100 and a seer squad can take a psm squad(not taking into account chaos lord or far seer)
B.Increase reinforce time, by the time you kill 1 seer another 1 has already reinforced(of course this is because of conceal).
C.Remove fleet of foot or nerf conceal substantially.

The thing you forget is the number of upgrades you can put on your PCM squads, and the fact you can have more than 1 of them.

A PCM squad fully upgraded will rip apart a SC, I know, I've been there and watched it happen. However it takes the PCM a lot longer to get to this stage.

Reborn

1st Oct 04, 6:43 AM

Delaying the sc a little is probably the best solution, and reduce the entangle time a little, but buff banshees to compensate.

Optimus Prime

1st Oct 04, 8:12 AM

I have seen a SC killed once. It took 4 Dreadnaughts in CC to kill them off and that took a good while as they were re-enforcing.

A noob allie said to me when I asked him where his army was and he said all i need to win is a fully upgraded SC and FS. I had around 60-70 ork units but the funny thing is the SC/FS combo could pretty much kill them all if they were lowly sluggas and shootas. I need a warboss and nobz squad with powerclaws to do so real damage in-order to take them out.

Barnsy

1st Oct 04, 9:55 AM

You are greatly exaggerating...
In my experience the best anti-eldar race are the orcs who totally outnumber the SC.
Any good orc player knows a squad without a nob isnt a squad: the nob does much more damage then the orc, can have an upgraded power claw, and is heavy inf which makes him harder to kill. Plus a squad without a nob will high-tail it out of there in not time.

And 4 dreads for the sc? One is more than enough to kill them, mebe 2 if they have upgraded whytch blades.

Oblivion2032

1st Oct 04, 10:46 AM

Okay, Relic may change the SC but at the end of the day as so many of you have so rightly said the Eldar need the Seer Council because the Eldar a pretty weak without them. However I do agree that they should have a reduced squad size as, lets face it, 14 Warlocks own.

And this is coming from a hardened Eldar player know online as "oblivion" One thing i don't agree with is people suggesting that they should be made avaible after MfW upgrade because as Critta said the Far Seer cannot stand up to the other hero units on their own and the Eldar have to wait until they have full tech to build the Avatar. So i feel Relic have put the SC where they should be.

Lets put our faith in Relic to make the right decision.

Now lets moaning and enjoy Dawn of War.

Reborn

1st Oct 04, 10:56 AM

SC and entangle has to be weakend, or be made avaible later in the game, then the other early eldar units can be buffed.

Barnsy

1st Oct 04, 11:27 AM

If its made available later in the game and eldar units are buffed imagine the imbalance THEN!
You're gonna have an awesome CC unit that can absorb lots of damage plus lots of other damage-absorbant and dealing units.
No, SC will remain where it is, I believe.

Sps

1st Oct 04, 1:14 PM

eldar dont need any CC to survive. they have entangle.

which it seems will be nerfed to 2 seconds - also couple that with the fact you need guardians for it - one less reaper/spider/banshee for a WEAKEST unit.

With that and that nerf alone a lot of council problems will go away - but as always the whines will have it.

Buttass

2nd Oct 04, 5:30 AM

As i said here (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=38934&page=4) and many people have said before, the seer councils unbalencedness stems from the way conceal "stacks" and this means that they have way to much ranged resistance, many people call this a bug but i believe it is just a feature that due to the unruly size the seer council can reach gets out of control. My suggestion is just to reduce the max squad size to 7 (see my other post for logic). Anyway... thats just my suggestion.

God's Hitman

2nd Oct 04, 6:06 AM

nah, just 7 is too drastic. maybe limit it to around 5-6 at the beginning and then have a research available after the MFW upgrade which allows them to reinforce back up to 15. this solves the start game problem and makes it fairer in the mid-later games.

Reborn

2nd Oct 04, 8:15 AM

As eldar, I loost two of my fist games to early chaos/sm marine rushes. Now that I'm better at handeling them, it's usually just a matter of time before I run them over with SC, conceal, entangle, and at the end I add a few reapers and brightlance platforms.

The sad part is that I did not know eldar at all when I started. I only knew the build to get fast SC, and I'm still not familiar with about 40% of the eldar units/upgrades. Yet I can win like 3 ranked 1v1 games in a row vs none-eldar oponents. In many cases the oponent has become flat out mad, cursing at me and the game. In other cases they have behaved more mature, but still told me I won becuase of edlar imbalance :/

I think its early entangle/conceal and the large size of the SC that the cause of the imbalance. Move entangle/conceal to after mobilize for war, and reduce the size of the SC to 10 max. Then buff banshees and rangers a little to make them more useful.

spankmeister

2nd Oct 04, 9:00 AM

IMHO i dont reckon they need nerfing otehrwise rushers from other races would walk all over you

is they do nerf the SC then some early anti-tank infantry would be appreciated

Apoc

2nd Oct 04, 9:05 AM

Same goes for those who abuse the stand ground bug.

1st off, that isn't a bug. It was confirmed by one of the guys from Relic in the thread discussing it.

As for the problems with Seer Council, I would say that perhaps the biggest problem with them is their squad size. The unit itself doesn't need a nerf, as they can be taken down quickly enough using the right counters (HINT: Heavy Bolters aren't them).

I would agree with what he been suggested already about limiting their size to about 6-7 Warlocks until Mobilise for War has been researched, then you can add members upto what it is now (I forget if it's 14 or 15).

Finally, something I don't think has been suggested so far, is perhaps increasing their squad cap allocation from 2 to 4, on par with SM Termies. This way, you can get them as early as you want, but you ain't going to have 4 Guardian squads aswell until you build more Webway Gates, which of course will require more req, and in turn reduce the overall size of the Seer Council.

spankmeister

2nd Oct 04, 9:22 AM

1st off, that isn't a bug. It was confirmed by one of the guys from Relic in the thread discussing it.

As for the problems with Seer Council, I would say that perhaps the biggest problem with them is their squad size. The unit itself doesn't need a nerf, as they can be taken down quickly enough using the right counters (HINT: Heavy Bolters aren't them).

I would agree with what he been suggested already about limiting their size to about 6-7 Warlocks until Mobilise for War has been researched, then you can add members upto what it is now (I forget if it's 14 or 15).

Finally, something I don't think has been suggested so far, is perhaps increasing their squad cap allocation from 2 to 4, on par with SM Termies. This way, you can get them as early as you want, but you ain't going to have 4 Guardian squads aswell until you build more Webway Gates, which of course will require more req, and in turn reduce the overall size of the Seer Council.
you do have a point! really how many SC do you have if you get rushed, 6 or 7 at the most, so nerfing the # allowed would do stop people rushing and killing off the main attacking force and doing over the rest of the base, with 6 SC that would take awhile!

Reborn

2nd Oct 04, 9:41 AM

is they do nerf the SC then some early anti-tank infantry would be appreciated

Brightlance platforms are pretty easy to get early already, soul shrine + webway gate. The brightlance has worked very well when I faced orc who went for wartraks. They also saved the day vs an sm that lived long enough to get a dread.

XavionDeosXIV

2nd Oct 04, 12:37 PM

1st off, that isn't a bug. It was confirmed by one of the guys from Relic in the thread discussing it.

Yea I just saw that...very interesting...

Nillsens

2nd Oct 04, 9:15 PM

I had a few thoughts whilst going through this thread.

Bringing down the squad cap seems like a decent idea, 15 Warlocks is a bit much (like having more Termies than Tacticals, it just doesn't look right :P).
Besides, the way they are now, 6-10 Warlocks can smash lots of stuff, they really don't need the extra 5 unless you are fond of overkill.

The other idea I had, which is far more radical, would be to change them into regular infantry.
Most people would then instantly argue: "You could use HBs to knock 'em down too easy then,".
Well, wouldn't that be a perfect use of conceal? Regular infantry with decent (not amazing) resistance to anti-infantry weaponry... They would still be tough, but wouldn't be able to run around with impunity untill the other player(s) can get to Tier 2.

Anyhow, if that was somehow balanced to the point that HBs are a considerable threat if left alone (but not an instant SC killer), then Banshees would be great to attack the HB wielding Tacticals to draw fire away from the rest of your troops.

Oh, and off-topic: I really wish Rangers had better... range. As they are, I never build them since they have to get too close and almost always end up being targeted. I mean... it would seem HBs have better range... that's just... weird. Without infilitrate, I don't think I could imagine a way to even get them into range before HB bullets start raining down on them.

Anyhow, if SC is just nerfed and other things are left alone, my gut-instinct tells me that the Eldar will be in trouble.

ShortStroke

2nd Oct 04, 9:19 PM

Yeah I have the same problem with Warp Spiders, they can shoot from pretty far away but they always like to get 2 steps out of CC. It's really obnoxious. They shoot off a salvo then charge in and stop just out of harm's way.

Lt. Hill

3rd Oct 04, 9:01 PM

only slightly off topic but today i played someone that gives the SC complainers a bad look. I had 3 -note the 3- SC and he complained. and this was further into that game when he had like 2(upgraded) squads of sm and FC.... later i upgraded to five and he whinged about SC and how it made me a non player/asshole basicaly. i mean comon i had 5 and it was at the point of wraithlords...somehow peps manage to complain no matter what

Merforga

3rd Oct 04, 9:11 PM

It's an online multi player game. Of course there's gonna be complaints. When someone gets owned by something in a game when they've been winning a fair bit they'll tend to blame it on imbalance when it actual fact its a combination of tactics and micro control.

Lt. Hill

3rd Oct 04, 9:24 PM

Yea he did manage to push me back at the start (with SC at 3 members) and i got my FS killed stupidly (forgot to attach it to SC and had the SC control grouped over top of FS).

Sps

3rd Oct 04, 9:30 PM

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=590582#post590582

Anti seer strat. Council needs a nerf but other aspects need a buff.

radioDead

3rd Oct 04, 11:10 PM

Merforga

3rd Oct 04, 11:22 PM

There's no such thing as balanced players. Those stats are based upon number of games played and their outcomes. When you look at it under a microscope, a game can be balanced yet be unbalanced based on the players that play it. So if there are more pro players biased towards SM for example, then obviously they will have a higher success percentage yet the units are still balanced.

Sps

3rd Oct 04, 11:32 PM

I got a q. New to forums, don't flame me.
Reading about balance issues, someone pointed out how the races all haev abotu the same win %, about 51-56%, "Balanced!" Said they.
How, please explain, maybe its easy...
can all of the races be better than 50%?
Maybe there's a link to an explanation?
Thanks...
-radio

that was me. It simply means that if all the races were about equal they would all have about the same loss/win ratio - as they do. Eldar has a 2% win advantage simply because the "skilled" top players "abuse" council it to "prove a point".

I have posted 2 replays showing just how easy it is to beat eldar - so much for the "even a newb can use overpowered cheeze" to win - as clearly - they cant.

After beeing flamed within seconds of my posts they are all strangely quiet now tho - maybe the rine spam strat required is just that simple.......lol

Merforga

3rd Oct 04, 11:35 PM

Sps

3rd Oct 04, 11:43 PM

Meh being an Eldar players myself I hardly ever use the Seer Council. Aspect warriors are so much more fun =D. So while people are building anti seer council units....I have anti anti seer council unit units ^__^

watch the replay - those units would own your aspects - most times - not saying all the time - but most tmes (just being antilfame clear) considering the time and money you need.

Merforga

3rd Oct 04, 11:47 PM

Banshees/Warp Spiders can beat that, not to mention the numerous numbers of guardians with guide.

Fenris-X2

3rd Oct 04, 11:48 PM

or maybe we got tired of the fact that you dodge any real challenges and hide behind your magical 2v2 unranked games which you claim to win against eldars.

you'd never come close to beating me using a marine rush, ever.

Sps

4th Oct 04, 12:00 AM

Point is not what can beat it - a few things can as i pointed out and as Mef. restated correctly - point is council can be killed before eldar has a chance to use it effectively - funny how the topic changes now that it is "inconvenient" to claim what you have claimed thus far.

And fenris I dont want to play you not because of your skill, not because you may beat fc+tacs - but simply because you are an asshole as proven by how you switch from me beating council - which is the topic - to me not beating you....whats your point ... exactly? And please do not misquote - I play 1v1s - just play more team - and they are not "magical" to the extent your attempt at switching the topic from the fact to your skill. You are not nearly as skilled as you think.

Even when SHOWN a dead council - especially the more experienced guy - with the farseer - you switch to something completely irelevant to the point made.

And btw - spiders will NOT beat that - guardians with upgrades yeah, and a crapload of banshees as well - note I IGNORED banhees for a while in that replay vs inexperienced guy then they died within seconds of being targetted.- but number 1 target is the shrine - or aspect depending on what I feel eldar is going for.

Point is you wanted an SM strat that kills council dead - I gave it to you, anything else is your inability to agree that council rush can be beat with a faster rush of your own.

That was the point. Point proven council was beat. Move on. Need all 50 replays?

XavionDeosXIV

4th Oct 04, 1:48 AM

Your replays are complete bullshit Sps. They do not demonstrate a way to beat the council, they demonstrate two players who were monumentaly stupid in its use, and their inability to stop a hero rush on the EASIEST map in the game to perform a hero rush on. Allow me to explain.

The first replay, titled eat my hammer SC, showed a player who executed an improper build order, and idled his builders way to long. additonally, he overwatch-reinforced his guardians waay to early. He basically let u rush him, and split his forces up. He wasn't SC rushing, he was probably a noob who didn't even know about the strat. U pounced him with a hero rush and he couldnt resist. And i serousl doubt he even researched conceal or had a chance to because he built his SS waay to late. It was unlikely he was trying to rush, and u hero rushed him. Fair strat, but certianly not a proof of anything regarding this matter. Oh yea, and he didn't even make a farseer, which is what turns this rush from good to nigh unbeatable. Completely useless and irrelevant replay.

Your second replay, another SC dead, shows a player who did (almost) execute a proper build order. Two problems tho: he didn't attach his FS and he sent his unreinforced SC right at your FC instead of microing it a little and consolidating his forces. He didn't expect your hero rush and panicked. He also wasted 100 req on a webway gate, which is totally useless in a SC rush. Again, a player who didn't really know what he was doing, playing a player who knew exactly what he was doing, namely marking rubes who he can stomp with a hero rush in a lame attempt to prove an incorrect point. Funny that these both are on the same map, again the easiest map to pull your little roundabout hero rush.

Neither of these players executed the SC rush. And even if they did, you proved that the only way to beat a rushing SC player is his own incompetance with it. Thank you for proving one of my points for me BTW. Oh, and id really like to see you pull that one off on a map other than fallen city, which is by far the EASIEST map in the game to hero rush on because a player's force thats capping points is almost sure to be divided. finally, i highly doubt that either player had researched conceal, which has been established as the NUMBER ONE PROBLEM WITH THE SC! U failed to illustrate that either, since by the time the player was in a position to take any ranged damage the council was already dead because of said player's failure to properly execute.

You are a lamer who uses lame evidence to prove an umprovable point because you are WRONG! your replays are utter BS and you are utter BS. The only thing you proved is that you are better than the players you rushed. I wipe my ass with your conclusions! Now :stfu:

Sps

4th Oct 04, 1:57 AM

point was to eliminate council BEFORE conceal - i wipe MY ass with your inability to read or comprehend - whichever.

as i said - people will find all kinds of "problems" with it - and yes I allready stated those two were so-so eldar rushers I obviously know the difference....

This is more about peoples ego's than anything else, especialy fenrises, anyway as I said - I beat it using that simple simple idiotic rush - and only lost once - you want to tell me that sc is running rampant - not in my games - i grabbed two of the latest games i played - seems not enough - i will not cater to morons who don't see the obvious.

On meeting of minds its dancing scouts killing bonesingers - before he even finishes shrine, and only then marines - whatever people - you wanna nerf it - nerf it - you will make it EASIER on me. you want to stay stupid - well - again no problem here.

I dont need actually to prove sc can be beat - its enough for me to beat it. Have fun with your whines.

And with that I'm done with this overstretched idiotic argument.

XavionDeosXIV

4th Oct 04, 2:04 AM

Fine. U lose so u run away. typically cowardly garbage. cant prove that ur right so u bounce. the SC is running rampant. U think that beating 2 noobs means a damn thing? Oh, and if u HAVE to beat the SC before they get conceal, it proves the point that conceal is overpowered.

ur an idiot, plain and simple. get stuffed!

Lt. Hill

4th Oct 04, 2:15 AM

um off topic but i noticed that bonesingers do 30 dammage...is that even minorly useful??

SubZero

4th Oct 04, 2:19 AM

um off topic but i noticed that bonesingers do 30 dammage...is that even minorly useful??

thats just physical damage, not power weapon, so useless against armor.

Fenris-X2

4th Oct 04, 2:41 AM

the only idiot here is you SPS, where as my supposedly cocky attitude has the respect of people who were formally my enemy just because they can admit when i'm right and have a brain to comprehend basic arguments.

i'm just telling you right now, you would not come close to beating me if i tried a council rush. you would not even kill a single seer. i could post a million replays of me winning by using bonesingers against newbies, but whats the point?.

the replays i show are between pros of similar skill level, yet i easily dominate them without effort. IF I WAS A COCKY BASTARD like you say I am, I would say " haha it was my insane micro and superior understanding of the game " but instead i'm humble and smart enough to know my victories where because of rather blatent imbalances in the game.

you are obviously to stupid to understand that your newbie games prove absolutely nothing about the state of balance.

I have nothing against people who are real "newbies" who haven't played the game much. But IDIOTS like you who think they know better than people far better than them and who think their stupid vs AI or vs newb games prove anything are just plain annoying.

So, again gg stfu. don't say people are being quiet because you are right, all you do is dodge and make up stupid excuses. you have no respect from anyone so just stfu no one cares what you think.

You know why I can talk like an asshole and still not be flamed by everyone? because I'm right and you know it.

H0NE-HEKE

4th Oct 04, 3:13 AM

O and this pole dosnt mean anything because its in the Elder area of the forum, and polls can easily be haxed.

Double Post

O and I think the SC should be reduced to 10 plp.
Same damage strength etc as old SC.
BUT
Morale should not be buffed.
They are the leaders od the craftworld and should need to have friendly units nearby or have shity morale.
15=SC
10=Guardins

O and i think it (sc) should develop as you gain higher teirs not this
15 strong as soon as you want bs. (yea yea req demands)
1st tier like 5 max then,
2nd tier 10max

And please think about this befor being a orc and flaming me.

Howling banshes need to be buffed cause they are no challage intill 3rd teir.

Warp gates are a bit of over kill. Its a warp gate but plp use them to build support platforms any were.
Why do elder need to build around warp gates? They dont
oo elder have shity buildings but orcs buildings are shity and they need space elder dont and warp gates just get abbused.

As a last thought plp winge about SC to much
yayaya most elder players abuse it but Ts (tm) can be abused, along with big mek and tankbusters,
sm probley have some abuse they can pull( :jk: ).

Sps

4th Oct 04, 3:22 AM

Fenris Posted: Oct 4 2004, 07:31 AM

Advanced Member

Group: Members
Posts: 39
Member No.: 80
Joined: 27-August 04

plasma almost instantly kills cultists so all he had to do is grenade you, run in circles for a while. entangle PSM, then plasma u some more and then finally killing your PSM in the end. i'm assuming he tried to send his seers and fs straight into your PSM at the beginning, thats very newb.

it works vs most, i highly doubt it'd even scratch my forces if i was playing. i wouldn't even go near your PSMs. therein lies the problem of Eldar, they always have the initiative over you unless you do a barrack no powerplant hardcore rush with tactsquad/scouts/cultists/cl/fc. apart from that build, you are going to have to rely on the eldar sucking.

in order to get PSMs you need a powerplant + barrack + sac pit. thats a huge cost and you have no means of harassing him early which is about the only time eldar is vunerable.

anther thing, not meaning to offend ppl. but whats with these newbie eldars in the top10. i've met some who mass dark reapers against me when i'm eldar and some who mass spiders when i'm chaos and then proceed to get owned by tact squads. it becomes so obvious they only got there because of seer council abuse when you play a mirror match and you realise they don't even know how to use the eldar units properly.

I guess those people simply do not see past you dancing around the issue so as to not hurt your vurnelable ego - you say my replay shows a newb strat that will not work - well YOU wrote the above - GG indeed

Change your story now (again) - its becoming TOO inconvenient to be shown a rush that can work. Since you are so experienced and have the respect of other people - whatever - I quote you as you have proven that the rush in my replay - works - by your own admission - relevant text - in bold.

ziLa

4th Oct 04, 3:22 AM

Personally I think brainoffs idea of making seercouncil only available after Mobilize for War was a great idea... It would stop the really early rushes at least of seer council, and although this would leave the eldar in a slightly less favourable position, i think that it would be great... maybe a slight adjustment to banshee health or morale (notice the word slight)... and i think by that time conceal would be ok... but i must say i dont know that much about conceal because i never used it before with my seer council... now that i do i can see what the horrible problem is.

Discuss please instead of flaming each others beliefs and calling each other "nubs". Its kinda counter-productive dont ya think? :D

-- ah - and i refuse to use seer council now before i get a few aspect warriors up - ARENT I A GOOD BOY?!?! :D

Sps

4th Oct 04, 3:27 AM

zila - what you have suggested is one of the things I have also agreed with... and moving council to later in game is a bit of a nerf isnt it?

as for fenris he calls me n00b after being actualy the first to post a strat that will work vs eldar I simply saw it after I figured it out myself as well - perhaps he wasnt clear - Perhaps he meant to edit the bold part out and say how his point is uber. Perhaps it is inconvenient to quote him as agreeing with what I say works - and then him saying it "will never work" because it is used to disprove his "other" point. Make up you mind already.

Or perhaps he simply can not understand a simple point of being in agreement - however only to a degree - which is where I actualy stand and have stood all along.

Fenris-X2

4th Oct 04, 3:29 AM

Or I guess you are just a moron and I'm right. Give it up, you have no credibility.

Sps

4th Oct 04, 3:52 AM

You can attack my credibility all you want. 7 steps to fenrishypocricy (8th being he abused Sc himself):

1. You stated there is absolutely no way to beat seer council rush
2. i argued there is and conditionaly agreed on a nerf being needed anyway. You disagreed simply to disagree - challenge on aspects btw if you are too dim to remember the reference.
3. You demanded a replay
4. I gave it to you - you ignored it as not showing anything
5. Funny development - prior to it you yourself agreed that whats in the replay is the only thing that works.
6. Now you ignore the point.
7. Which is it?

If you think your rank gives you credibility then you have a "mine is bigger" mentality.

As i have said from the beginning Sc can be beat- even via attached fc in melee squad while two others shoot. Point is simple - with aspects only as they are - eldar will have an incredibly hard time standing their own early game - nerfing council must involve some slight aspect buffs.

The only moron is a person who refuses to listen - and when confronted with proof of own duality and double standards can muster only insults.

Whatever. you are worse then Kerry - you vote THREE ways - just to be safe and able to say - I was right.

Fine. U lose so u run away. typically cowardly garbage. cant prove that ur right so u bounce. the SC is running rampant. U think that beating 2 noobs means a damn thing? Oh, and if u HAVE to beat the SC before they get conceal, it proves the point that conceal is overpowered.

ur an idiot, plain and simple. get stuffed!

as for you - I did not lose anything - I simply stated a way to beat it. Just like you must beat an equal force of SM by getting there first or getting plasma first.

Same thing with conceal which again, you retarded little flamer, I have said - I agree on a nerf - my point is lost on you and I will repeat it no more.

I dont need to prove anything - fenris has credibility - read his quote. laff

Now , I am really done as both idiots have been shown as hypocrits they tried so hard to hide the fact of.

ziLa

4th Oct 04, 5:14 AM

Fenris - What is your position on what they should do to balance the Seer Council?

I havent really seen your views. I'm Curious.

I personally think making them available after Mobilize for War would be great... and not nerf them at all really... i'm pretty sure eldar with a couple of dark rearper / banshee / warp spiders squads can stop sm rush's... tho saying that i havent actually got anything to back up what i just said... ah well :)

Fenris-X2

4th Oct 04, 5:16 AM

nerf conceal or make it not affect the seer council. its good enough as it is for the protection it offers guardians.

SPS, don't even bother arguing with me. You will lose no matter because you are an idiot and your arguments suck period.

If you want to prove something is balanced, you have to show repeated games at high level between near equally skilled players each winning only around 50% of the time. none of that garbage you posted proves a thing.

ziLa

4th Oct 04, 5:19 AM

the problem would be that you'd HAVE to know the other players race before doing this... you cant just go dark reapers as you'll get fisted by orks, and so on, So that would slow down your building.... i dunno :D but we gotta rack our brains instead of shouting at each other to think how it can be made fair.... it'd be nice to see eldar players try stuff like only getting there seer council after mobilize for war just to see how it works... i'll give it a try anyways

Double Post

I've probably playing bad players... but i never used conceal, and i think i lost once out of like 10+ games with no conceal council rushes... i dont think thats the problem personally

Fenris-X2

4th Oct 04, 5:23 AM

ive already posted 5+ replays showing me winning vs players like Stratus and Landwehr without using seers AT ALL. These players are skilled, not like that trash sps posts.

DoW_de|Plasma

4th Oct 04, 5:29 AM

seer council need to be nerved maybe nerving the couceal upgrade is not enough

look at this europe ladder

http://www.esl-europe.net/de/dow/1on1/ladder/

pos 1. eldar player
pos 2. eldar and sm,chaos player me but over 50% of the matches mirror eldar matches
pos 3. eldar player
pos 4. ork player
pos 5. eldar player
pos 6. chaos player
pos 7. chaos player
pos 8. sm player
pos 9. sm player
pos 10. sm player

all the people who say seer council are not imbalanced add me via icq then we make a match i beat all player that dont play eldar

here is my icq number 240-932-403

ziLa

4th Oct 04, 5:43 AM

OKAYYYYYY

Right, Here is my oppinion. I've picked up most of it from other people and added a little bit... please COMMENT on this because if we work TOGETHER we can probably FIX this inbalance.

Right.

Seer Council

Seer Council Should only be able to be built once the Mobilize For War Research has been... well... researched!! Apart from this, i don't really see any need to nerf as by this time all races should have (hopefully - correct me if i'm wrong) something to counter them. Conceal etc should be as it normally is.

Aspect Stones

to lighten the loss of seer council, and to help incase the player does not scout out and just spams out DR or WS or whatever, and finds that they've picked the wrong stone, each stone will be more expensive than the first

for example;

1st researched stone cost - 110 req 10 power
2nd researched stone cost - 220 req 20 power
3rd researched stone cost - 330 req 30 power

Note: these are just figures i thought out of the top of my head... i'm sure work could be put into this to make it better, so just look at the general concept and not the details really...

Aspect Warriors

In reality, i dont think much should be changed of them. I guess a possibility would be to make banshees have a slight health and/or morale upgrade would be great, but other than that its fine i think.

OK, thats my idea. PLEASE comment, dont even bother flaming though, just say if its a good idea, what bits are good and what bits are bad, or if there's a better way to stop the imbalance.

Thankyou and much love. :duck:

Fenris-X2

4th Oct 04, 6:44 AM

increasing the cost of the soulshrine would be a good start, eldar get everything else ridiculously cheap anyway. i don't see the need for their tier2 + armory combined to be cheaper than a stand alone armory.

i'm also curious as to the power of the exarches in this game, tbh i have no clue how strong they are but they cost like 100-120 each which is a ton. I usually just add them because I assume they will be good enough since almost all other leader units for squads are no brainer attachments, especially the incredibly cost effective warlock at 55req 15 power for something which can entangle, push melee away from guardians and provide range protection to guardians.

Merforga

4th Oct 04, 7:16 AM

Exarches seem to be underpowered .... but the HB exarch Warshout ability is awesome =D

Barnsy

4th Oct 04, 8:02 AM

I agree with fenris on this one, the exarchs are definately very expensive, especially considering we have no idea what kind of buff they give to the squad.

XavionDeosXIV

4th Oct 04, 11:05 AM

Also, since ive never seen the Eldar Codex, what abilities from the TT that units in the game should have but don't? Just out of curiosity: I doubt that any new abilities would be added but if some of them are translatable as a passive buff they may be a valid balancing tradeoff when the council is fixed. Oh, and as far as exarch buff, besides the research weapons that the reaper and banshee exarch get and the war shout ability, I don't think they provide any buff from what I can see. Squads seem to break about the same with and without, and the only reason they seem to do more damage is because there is an additional (and, in the case of warpspiders, more powerful before research) unit. Seems kinda sad for the cost.

Oh, and Sps, im done with u. if u had anything to say that was worthwhile id respond, but u dont so :stfu: jackass.

Barnsy

4th Oct 04, 12:02 PM

Basically, for warp spiders the exarch has a relentless assault power, which ads +1 attack while charging for the entire squad (basically huge damage :D )
Reaper exarch has fast shot, which gives him a faster-shooting weapon, precision shot, which makes him aim better, and something else that I forget.
Banshee exarch has War Shout (which adds to the Banshee masks that all banshees have, making them always attack first when charging no matter what) which basically lowers the opponent's CC skills, making the enemy easier to kill and the banshees harder to kill (basically whoopass marines :D) The other banshee powers arent very relevant, especially since the Version 2 of the rulesbook that just came out.
All in all, Exarchs normally are the aspect warrior buffed up to near-hero skills, without the life points that they have, and with powers that buff up a unit quite a bit. And generally they cost twice the amount of the normal unit.
In DoW they certainly arent worth their price considering the meager advantages they give compared to TT...

XavionDeosXIV

4th Oct 04, 1:12 PM

Hmm...perhaps thats the tradeoff. Once conceal is fixed buff the exarchs. It would certianly justify the extra cost of aspect stones, exarchs, and the squads themselves. Most squad leader units cost around 75 req. Hell take the reapers for example: Rather than spend 110 per squad on an exarch, use the money towards another squad. even with fast shot, three reaper squads w/o exarchs is more effective than two with.

The SM/Chaos/Ork leaders are, by comparison much more cost effective. The ork leaders provide great melee and a heavy infantry target in standard infantry squads, sarges give marine squads a free morale refill, and the aspiring champions get beserk fury. Yes there are research abilities for the exarchs, but only one of them is a command ability. meanwhile, guard squads get warlocks at half the cost with twice the abilities. that seems just plain bassackwards.

Merforga

4th Oct 04, 3:24 PM

You forgot to add that exarchs get one extra WS,BS,A,I, LD and Sv which is awesome compared to the +1 attack and leadership that Space marine seargents get. =)

EffeKt

4th Oct 04, 3:52 PM

Taken from the craftword Eldar books:

"The strength of Ulthwe is ultamately its seer council..."

Same thing applies to Dawn of War. The strength of Eldar is the seer council. If you were to alter them to make them crappier then it defeats the purpose, no? If someone actually takes down the seer council, which I have done many times whenever I play Chaos for 1on1, the other team crumbles because what can mere guardians do to my marines?

Fenris-X2

4th Oct 04, 7:20 PM

you'd be suprised what guardians can do, ive posted plenty of replays vs pros to prove it.

Lt. Hill

4th Oct 04, 7:29 PM

Yea guardians f**k sh*t up with the right upgrades and managment

Optimus Prime

4th Oct 04, 7:59 PM

The strength of the orks comes from the Warboss and his ruling Nobz and are the backbone of the assult force, but can I get them as tier 1 units?

EffeKt

4th Oct 04, 8:20 PM

I agree with you two, guardians are full of surprises, especially with grenades and that web thing that stops enemies from moving ( I forgot what its called). So I take back my 'mere' guardians statement. Though I am just pointing out that once you take down the seer council, especially in 1on1, the eldar team crumbles unless they have banchees or another unit to back up the loss other than guardians.

Thygrrr

4th Oct 04, 10:24 PM

Sorry, this is a bad poll. Overlapping and non-exclusive options, and too many of them. Way to go, a good way to never get the seer council issues adressed.

XavionDeosXIV

5th Oct 04, 12:11 AM

'nades keep the guardians from being totally useless as anything but above-average meatshields and point harassment. Warlocks, duh. With the council they just round out the SC rush nicely...theyre great for disrupting squads while the council slaughters. Theyre a oft-overlooked facet of the much maligned Seer Cheese Rush.

Lt. Hill

5th Oct 04, 12:21 AM

Hey man this is my first poll ever....and there were no other polls on the SC so i had to act. Plus its not that bad i mean its got levels of nerf (am i meant to list everything that you could do to them - given the circumstances, to limit the so called over flowing options i had to just generalze), complete changes and even buff if that takes your fancy.

Barnsy

5th Oct 04, 1:15 AM

Well exarchs are in TT far superior to any kind of squad-buffing unit all the other races have. Basically they are million-year-old warriors that kill all :)
Either making the exarchs themselves more dangerous or having a global damage buff would seem right to me. It would certainly make them more interesting, as now I prefer getting another squad instead of an exarch...

Merforga

5th Oct 04, 2:37 AM

Well in the popup box it says that the exarch boosts the damage the unit does. Not sure if that goes for Vet Seargants and Aspiring Champs as well but.

ziLa

5th Oct 04, 2:51 AM

hmmf, no one commented :/

gls5000

5th Oct 04, 4:10 PM

I just played an Ork player and beat him with about 7 seers, 5 dark reapers, and 8 guardians with warlocks. As the last Orks fell the other player was sending messages (which I imagined him to be muttering to himself) about 'imbalance' and 'overpowered'. When I watched the replay, I saw that all he had done was build three huge Ork slugga squads and a Big Mek, and threw them at me. I beat him with a combination of micro involving grenades, entangles, farseer spells, firepower, and seers. Wouldn't it have been worrying if all that effort was beaten by some guy throwing a three of the same unit at me and sitting back to watch the outcome? Or is that what Ork tactics are?

While I agree that the Eldar need tweaking here and there (probably conceal), I do think that players should make sure that their game is right before blaming the game mechanics.

Note to Fenris and Ojka: any chance of offering some more replays and guides for non-seer-council games? It would be more fun to have more tactical options and play in a way that more resembles tabletop 40K (if I remember, the seer council was an Ulthwé-only thing, not a dominant eldar unit).

But at the moment, if I hadn't used the seer council, I fear that his Ork Horde would have ploughed through my eldar with ease.