Nightly Lessons Learned...

[Perp]

Lessons I learned from last night...

How your built makes an impression...

Going with this build order:
Cue Scout, Scout, Servitor
First servitor to build barracks
First scout to nearest point,
Second scout to next closest point,
Second servitor helps with barracks build.
Barracks cue MS
Both servitors go to the nearest captured point and build LP
Barracks cue FC
Both servitors build energy
Keep spreading the scouts to points, and build your LPs


Whoever comes out on top is in control...

You must come out of that first engagement on top. Whoever comes out with their Hero unit intact will almost always win the game. If you can keep your force intact, you don't have to rebuild; if you don't have to rebuild you can continue up the tech tree to produce a more vital force- you maintain the advantage.

Be wary of commitment...

In that first battle, don't get entangled in close combat, keep your forces spread out. What I try to do (if I haven't made it to my armory yet) is keep my squads seperate. If they have a little distance between them, then usually the enemy will have to commit his CC guys to one unit, which allows me to keep the other squad firing. I then send my FC over to the unit engaged in CC. If my FC is getting targeted by everything (which is exactly what I am going to try to do to the enemy FC- target him with everything I've got) then I will attach my FC to the unit that is engaged in CC. What this does is buys me a little time, and keeps my FC from being the direct target of all that incoming fire. If I can keep my FC alive longer than his, then I should come out on top.

Size does matter...

In the end of that first engagement it is important that you have more squads left alive than your opponent. If you can outproduce him, and have a bigger army, well, your bigger than he is. Bigger the better. If I see a squad getting chewed up I will usually retreat that squad in hopes of saving at least one member of it, so all I have to do is reinforce it to get it back in the game. One marine left in a squad costs 150 rp to get back up to the original 4 member squad, and doesn't tie up your barracks in building, whereas if you have to spend 200 rp at the barracks to build a new one, your playing the catch up game.

In the end, its not the size, but what you do with it...

Be smart on how you upgrade. If your playing against Eldar, think morale breaking weapons (anytime you are outnumbered, think morale breaking weapons)... If your playing against Orks, your going to have to adjust and should try to go with something to tie up his CC and keeping your ranged squads out of CC. I've heard this game described as "the best rock, paper, scissors" game in a long time, you have to learn how to counter every move your enemy makes. I tech up as fast as possible, in hopes to have a better way to counter my opponent. But don't over tech, in the end it will be your units and the size of your army that matter most. It is important to maintain a balance of tech and army size, and only experience will teach you which is more important at what stages.

Have fun and GGs to you!

Disclaimer- this works for me and is a lesson learned, but may not work for you and your style. Play to your strengths, learn from your mistakes, and share your nightly lessons so we may all get better!

-------------------------

In the Multiplayer Graphic User Interface I finally figured out...

To whisper to someone, you must change the little wing picture next to their name to a chat bubble, to ignore them you change it to the "I". You must also select the talk to individual selection from the drop down box under the main chat box.

You can talk to only your buddies by giving them the chat bubble by their name and selecting the talk to group from the drop down box under the main chat box.

When you are in a user made game waiting for others to join, you can select between global chat and local chat by the drop down menu under the chat box.

To see an actual numeric rank value instead of stars click the star above the name list.

[Foxi]

I prefer sending my first scout squad to capture the SPs near my enemy, so I can build LPs on top of them and thereafter build one or two turrets. This holds back my enemy pretty well and I gain one SP more than my enemy, cause mostly my opponents capture their nearby SPs first.
Then I send my second scout squad to capture nearby SPs.

[Perp]

Last night saw me black and blue...

I lost more than I won, but I beat the SM guys consistently, and I know my build order is not suspect. I can only start to wonder how effective Space Marines really are, and this is why:

The first engagement is more important than I thought. Whoever wins the first engagement is almost assured the win.

In fact, I found this to be such a problem that I stopped building my 3rd listening outpost in an effort to get that 2nd marine squad out that much sooner. At the end of the night, I found myself concentrating on making sure that my 2 marine squads were up to full strength before that first engagement if at all possible. I am using overwatch consistently on those first two squads, in a vague hope that they can survive that first encounter. Hell, I'm even pulling in the scouts to backup my squads.

And the fact of the matter is, against a good ork player, you just can't survive the cheap cost of his CC guys. They just wade in, they are on overwatch too, you may have more resources, but if they keep you engaged they will lose their big Mecka, and rebuild it so fast you just can't keep up. GG

I still beat Eldar about 50/50, it depends on the skill of the Eldar player. Chaos just simply outnumbers me, and if I don't have the Armory up with snipers, they win consistently.

But it all boils down to this: WHOEVER WINS THAT FIRST ENGAGEMENT, WINS. If this is truly the case, Space Marines are at a great disadvantage, having no real CC units except the Force Commander (and let me tell you, your FC has a HUGE bullseye painted on his head), they will win early game with CC.

If you look at the race stats orks are at the bottom. I would suggest this- look at the race of the top player, it's orks. We are going to see an influx of CC rush tactics, and we need to be able to counter them effectively.

Any suggestions?

Edit- after looking at the guys I kept automatching (Dr5gon, amoung others) I realized I just kept drawing the same top players over and over again. I hope more people start playing online...

[Foxi]

[SIZE=3]But it all boils down to this: WHOEVER WINS THAT FIRST ENGAGEMENT, WINS. If this is truly the case, Space Marines are at a great disadvantage, having no real CC units except the Force Commander (and let me tell you, your FC has a HUGE bullseye painted on his head), they will win early game with CC.

Well...no.

In my opinion it's all about good micro and capturing SPs faster in the beginning. If you capture one SP more than your opponent you might already have an advantage over him.
I recently noticed two tricks my opponents used:

- when capturing an SP with scouts, my opponent reinforced two more scouts in the first squad. So when my and his scouts met at a SP between our bases, he won and could capture one more SP. So I use one "two scout squad" to capture nearby SPs, and one "reinforced 3-4 scout squad" to capture SPs near to my enemy

- when your FCs met, send your FC to attack the enemy FC, backed up by at least one marine squad). Then, attach your FC to your marine squad and shoot the enemy FC from distance with your entire squad. Now, detach your FC again and attack the FC. Your FC should have a small health advantage :)

As you see this applies to SM vs SM battles, but can be applied easily to other races.

hope this helps :beer:

[sch!Zo]

I dont think that the question of who wins the first battle is this important .I think the most important question is where does this battle start .If the enemy can rush you into your own base and keep you busy on defending for a while this will make a bigger Difference even if you loose your first attack-squad .

[Pickles]

My BO is slightly different in that I build the servitor first & double team the first few buildings - Barracks, generator, first LP. Seems the fastest. I also queue stealth straight away so I do not forget.

I do not aggressively try to capture LPs with scouts but use the first MS. That tip to reinforce your aggressive scout sounds good though.

After that I am the same as Perp.

I also like to upgrade my LPs with guns - usually just the ones near the (projected) front line. They are hard to take down early with anything except heroes & make a big difference in otherwise close fights (my marines run away a lot to their cover). A bolter turret can help out too. If you build it some way behind the LP is is relatively safe & has the range to reach early stuff shooting the LP. Later upgrade to missiles & the range will still be enough.

Other little tips I have found

You can rally buildings onto either buildings in construction or SPs. Units will then automatically assist building or capture the LP resp. (ok this is minor & I expect everyone knows but helps me for sure)

If you see a couple of scouts or similar taking a SP off you you can order one of your builders to build an LP there. This immediately goes up & prevents them capturing it. It has little armour but can be enough to buy time to send troops. You can always cancel it if it is going to get blown up (not sure if you lose some requisition due to the damage).

Do not give up & do not panic - I have come back from seemingly lost positions a few times & if you do not come back (too far behind) then you learn the skills that will help you another time.

Pickles

[Perp]

The rule of 10/10

I had a much better night last night, as I found the plateau of 10/10. I realized the reason why the build order with just 2 servitors and 2 scouts at the beginning allows me to reach the population limit of 10/10 with 2 servitors, 2 scouts, 1 FC, and 3 marine squads. If you have 3 scouts you get stuck at that first limit with only 9/10, which is not good.

Race up to the 10/10 limit as fast as you can! If you have to forgo a LP to get that Marine squad out that much sooner, than do it! Once you hit that limit of 10/10 get your armory up and get those squads full- you have a natural pause before you can upgrade to the /15 limit from your HQ.

The force that is full up in the middle of the game can go at that first full engagement with a big advantage, the more guns the better. And this is where the Space Marines shine- they aren't a rush tactic race, and they may not hold up in the long run- but they own the mid-game.

I am now gravitating to the heavy bolter squads placed on ranged stance, and pressing F2 to keep them from engaging in CC. I agree with everyone else that snipers are a better use of scouts than flamers in marine squads to kill enemy morale. Heavy bolters just RULE the mid-game, before the vehicles start pumping out. Once you maintain dominance after that first engagement, then you can either Take and Hold to win, or start building dreads to attack the enemy defenses.

The Devs say F2 was intended to work the way it works, but be aware, if the squad is engaged in CC, their accuracy drops drastically. I spread my squads apart (stagger) so that if one squad gets tied up in CC, the others are still happily mowing away.

To win with Space Marines, you have to survive the first rush, and control the board at mid-game. Win with 10/10.

[Perp]

Friday and Saturday Night I discovered...

Its much better to have loads of marines then just 4 squads and a dread. In these 1v1 games I find that most of the big battles are going to be before you can concievably get your Mech center up and start producing vehicles, you are better off just getting the biggest army of marines out there as you can. If you wait til the late game (and you don't have a commanding position) you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. Better to have a large army of marines ready for that mid-game battle that will break your opponents will to continue.

[3zekiel]

As a Ttop player, I can vouchsafe that you can't go wrong with the simple Space Marine. I think Perp's got something. (I'm going to try 20/20 SM and 20/20 Dred, if I can fix it.)

What an idea...*mwa ha ha*

[Perp]

Don't divide your forces!

I went at another SM guy, and had him at the beginning, decided to split my forces so I could protect both criticals. BIG MISTAKE! He came at me on one side, and neither of my forces were fully up, he waxed 2 squads, and gained the initiative. I will NEVER divide my forces again... I would have been much better off losing the crit, and going over with my main force to decimate him as he was trying to recapture it!

Lesson learned.

[Linkusmax]

hmmm I seem to have a huge variation withy my tactics then most people.

I get the first servitor to build barracks then build 5 scout squads another termi then the inf cap upgrade.

As my scouts spread out capturing SP I generally have the advantage over my opponent of haveing more SP and by that first engagement because I don't really spend any moeny on tech until a bit later I have at least my FC and 3 fully reinforced SM squads often with flamers plus 5 scout squads behind backing them up (somtimes with sniper rifles.

I often find them attacking me with less forces but better upgrades and I trounce them and immediatly move in on their base while still pumping out your basic SM squad and sending them over with overwatch too.

So far in every single 1v1 my opponents dropped out shortly after this (man thats lame

[3zekiel]

Five scouts?! Jeez, I'll take your word for it, I guess... :argh:

[Linkusmax]

yep I just posted up a few replays, you can see them here http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=40042

[Perp]

Learn the counter for each race.

In this game of Rock, Paper, Scissors- it is imperative that you learn the counter for each race and unit.

Marines vs. Eldar- Morale breaking and dislodgement weapons. Flamers and Snipers to break morale, and grenades to dislodge their ranged attack. Missiles for mid-game. Tip- G is the shortcut for grenade- use it!

Marines vs. Orks- Heavy bolter and snipers. Lots and lots. Tip- stay in F2 ranged stance. I even click the barracks and in the middle section of buttons make the default ranged stance.

Marines vs. Chaos- Heavy bolters, snipers, grenades, and apothecary/Librarians. Get that Chapel up as quick as you can, because you will need your librarian. Since he will outnumber you, use snipers. Apothocaries heal your units and are a must.

Marines vs. Marines- Heavy bolters. Go 10/10 as fast as you can (see rule of 10/10- in this thread).

Marines vs. Scout rush (as mentioned in the last couple of posts by Linkusmax). Build a turret in the middle of your base, later sell it.

Marines vs. Seer Council- Flamers and snipers. Go 10/10. STFN was kind enough to tell me that Flamers and snipers are what give him the hardest time, and he is a top ten Eldar guy.

Use cover! I always make my barracks waypoints in cover.

btw- my new ingame name is Apache. Hope to see you on the battlefield!

[sandy77uk]

I enjoy reading your nightly lessons matey, keep up the good work

btw if anyone wants a decent fight sometime, my in game name is cheeko

[Perp]

Thank you Sandy!

Sunday night showed me the value of plasma rifles!

I was in a 1v1 against a good Eldar player, and had 2 of 3 of the crits. I kept reinforceing the center crit in hopes that the time for a Take and Hold win would elapse, and I saw his hover tanks (Brightlances) actually jump over the wall to the far crit! He decimated the token force I had there by bouncing them around everytime they would try to launch their missiles, allowing him just enough time to take down the crit before the time ran out.

Lesson learned- if you find yourself playing against a late game Eldar player, expect vehicles, and don't expect your SM missile launcher guys to be effective. Best to start building plasmas if you get any open weapon slots. Plasma rifles do not take a set up time like missile launchers.

[sandy77uk]

and they are surprisingly effective against vehicles, and shred DR's and HB's in a matter of seconds and along with grens they are an amazing combo, it still blows my mind when i come up against another marine player and he doesnt have plasma weapons

[OPAtron]

this must be one of the most useful threads in this forum...

big thumbs up m8 !!

[Alpha_1]

Here is another rule to add.

Know thy map.

Tell them about Sunday nights 2v2 Apache, hehehehe, btw why the name change?

[Linkusmax]

erm just as a note, if you watch the replay its not a scout rush, because the scouts hardly ever live get to the enemy base I just use them so I can grab the majority SP's early game.

[Sixhits]

Question:

Why go for a large number of marines rather than qualitatively better marines?

I've been doing well, but not great with a Barracks, Power, Armory build. The purpose it to get to heavy weapons quickly, before the first engagement.

My troop build order is scout, serve, scout, FC, marine, marine. The first thing I do when I build the marines is add two hbs or an hb/flamer. I also upgrade the accuracy while the first MS is building.

I've found that his works very well. I've not been successfully rushed since I started doin this (which was the original point). It lets me use the marines at what I believe they are best at: shooty, defence oriented combat. Are marines best at charging into the mix? or at holding ground? I do routinely risk loosing my FC, but I micro him with the goal of letting him survive -- I just have to be on the ball.

Using this early Armory build I tend to be weaker mid game in total numbers, but able to hold my own against enemy troops. I'm always on the razor's edge, but through superior micro can hold out until I get my machine cult going.

I also tend to build my upgraded LPs slower than others, but from what I can tell, only just. Is it decisive? Not sure.

Where I loose is late game, when the enemy has hordes of troops and armor and I have a handful or squads that have lasted me the whole game. It's touch and go as my dreads melee Fire Prisms and my lone Pred provides fire support.

[Gong]

Lesson learned- if you find yourself playing against a late game Eldar player, expect vehicles, and don't expect your SM missile launcher guys to be effective. Best to start building plasmas if you get any open weapon slots. Plasma rifles do not take a set up time like missile launchers.

so that you know, all of the Eldar "platform" series of vehicles are actually counted as infantry. so, rocket launchers are actually not the ideal counter to them anyway. heavy bolters and plasma will net you the best success against them.

the rest of their vehicles (such as the fire prism, which is the one with the insane level of knockback) are most vulnerable to rockets, though. as you unfortunately discovered, they are very good at keeping rocket infantry off their feet. lascannons ought to make pretty short work of them, though.

[Hunk]

10 dreads = 38,800 hit points.
8 tc squads = 25,600 after full upgrades 400 a marine (+650 x 8 for the Sarge).

so that is 69,600 hitpoints if you go this route.

Lets say you want tanks n termies.

6 preds ~ 29,400
4 term squads = 25,600 after full upgrades. 800 a termie

So thats 55,000 hitpoints.

4 Land raiders ~ 20,000 (less actualy) But they withstand damage pretty well. Seems like they have more health than it says.

I think going 10 dreads and 8 TC squads is the best choice for army size, drop ability, flexability and amount of damage which can be both delt and taken. Also this can all be done in tier 2 tech (except drop ability of course). I think its interesting that 2 Tac Squads have the same hitpoints of 1 termi Squad. I personaly think termies should be a heck of a lot more powerfull, or come at tier 2, or take up less pop points or all of the above :).

Double Post

[3zekiel]

A serious and heartfelt AMEN to Hunk's point about the Termies. Thanks bro. :beer:

[Wretch]

Question:

Why go for a large number of marines rather than qualitatively better marines?



Lanchesters law. Quantity has a quality all its own.

[Perp]

As requested by Alpha...

Know thy map!

Alpha (ranked #6 in the nc ladder) is one of my teamspeak buddies that we play 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 matches with. BTW- if you play any of the big multiplayer matches, it is sooo important to be using Teamspeak!
But what he is referring to is we had a 2v2 map (Volcanic reaction), and I advanced into (what I thought was) one of my req points. Come to find out, it was the req point right next to the other team's base spawn point. I wasn't ready for a full engagement, and both of the other players panicked and jumped me... Its one of Alpha's 11 losses, and I doubt he will let me live it down anytime soon... :fight:

But he does have a point, it is best to know the 1v1 maps like the back of your hand...

Valley of Khorne- I have found in this map there are three crits lined up horizontally in the middle of the map. There are craters for cover between the middle crit and the crit on one side, and there is a swamp (negative cover) surrounding the crit on the other side. My favorite tactic on this map is to make my spawn point one of the craters between the two crits, and only send my scouts to the crits on either side of the crater. I ignore the swamp crit, and in so doing, I can cover both scout squads with my MS early game. It makes a difference in already being set up in that crater as your enemy advances on your position.

Meeting of Minds- This map is very similiar to Valley of Khorne, 3 crits lined across the middle of the map, and craters around the center crit. Again, I make my barracks spawn point in one of the center craters on this map, and I have figured that what the natural way is for the enemy to come to that middle crit- and occupy what would be his crater. It gives me a slight advantage. I also take the crit that has the natural barrier between me and him- but beware, if they're smart, they will jump troops over that mountian to retake that crit before your Take and Hold timer expires. I have found that putting a couple of squads there with GRENADES that can bounce them off the crit before they take it down, is imperative.

Outer reaches- This is a great map! It has two paths of req points- one around the outside top, and one shortcut threw the middle. The crits are lined vertically on this one. I usually try to take the outside line around with my scouts- and the key is to try to have your marine squad at the top enemy side crit when his scouts get there.

Fallen City- Same concept as outer reaches, you want to set your barracks spawn at the enemy's side far crit (the last crit the enemy would take if he goes from closest to furthest) so your marines and scouts can meet his scout squad.

Which brings me to a couple of points that can be used with just about every map.

1. Think like your enemy... What progression is he going to take in capturing his req points? Where should I make my spawn point for my barracks? Hopefully your barracks spawn (and where you will concentrate the majority of your firepower) will be at the spot where you first intend to meet just his scouts.

2. Is there a place on this map where I can get cover and allow the enemy to come to me? Marines (esp. with heavy bolters) do a lot better if they are already set up, in a tactically superior spot, in cover, that the enemy must advance on. Make him come to you!

3. What is the best spot on any map? The CENTER. Just like in chess, if you own the center, you will always be able to better react to what the enemy does. The only map I don't try to control the center is Outer Reaches- but the center is my long term target...



Thanks for the praise guys! I hope these are helping- but I in no way have a perfect win record, and I am still only about 50/50 against that damn Seer Council. :)

[Perp]

Target priority

Kill squads off.
It is very important to finish off one complete squad before moving on to the next one, as this prevents them reinforcing. On the flipside, if one of your squads is getting hammered, pull back to reinforce or allow overwatch to catch that squad back up to full strength.

Requistion points must go!
As you advance, you may not have time to capture a req. point, but at least make sure you bring it down. As I advance, I usually make a decision to leave one squad at that req. point to bring it down completely, then continue on. As my reinforcements catch up, they capture it and allow me to "cap" it (put a Listening Post on it).

Energy sources are easy, devastating kills.
If you find yourself in the enemy base, the first thing you should go for is his Energy buildings. They are easy to take down, and can severely hinder his efforts to reinforce. Only after I take those energy sources down do I concentrate on the barracks.

Barracks before Mech Center.
It is much easier for the enemy to produce squads then vehicles, esp. if you take down his energy production. This being the case, his barracks should recieve your personal attention first.

Hero's make the day- and should be shot on sight.
I've found pounding hero's with bouncy weapons (missiles, grenades, etc) keep them from being effective.

Weakest units must go first.
In combat kill their weak scout units first, and then work your way up to their heavy infantry. It shouldn't take you long, but in the end, they will have less guns shooting at you quicker if you take out the weaker units first. Notable exceptions would be Hero units and CC units- these are the bane of Space Marines, and need to be dealt with first, or you won't have a force for very long...

Hotkeys

from BlacksandTLSC-

I hotgroup my barracks, armory, and machine cult as '2', '3', and '4', respectively.
'1' is my servitors.
This is awesome! Putting on training cap for tonight's hotkey madness! To group bind press CTRL + # while the unit (or in this case, the building) is selected.


...

[Soulrender]

One thing i often forget myself: Always remember to build for your resoruces when you can see that you can afford it, or else the resources just get filled and you will probably be outnumbered by the enemy, so its good to always remember building a extra squad or two!. This especially happens abit late game, cuz when i sometimes got my big main force ready i forget to pump the barracks up with space marine squad orders so theyre ready to come out when one of my main army squads go down

[Alpha_1]

The only time I hotkey a building is when I have a relic AND I'm at orbital. Any other time is really a waste of hotkeys IMHO. It isn't until I have deep strike ability that hot keying is good for a building, you can hit the home key at any time to center on your HQ, and 99% of the time your HQ is right next to your barracks, 75% of the time the MC is too, and I'd say about 80% of the time the armory is as well.

Better to save the hot keys 1-7 for troops and vehicles, if you really MUST hotkey your buildings make it 8-0, like I said home gets you the HQ so why hotkey the barracks especially if you have more than one?

[Logan]

I have found that when playing anihilation that the most important thing is make sure that your base is secure if they can't take it they can't win. I also think that the quicker you upgrade your you troops the better so rather than use resources to build more bodies use the armoury instead and upgrade the hq building as soon as possible.Another good way is only concern yourself with the points near your base capture these and build on them and then upgrade as soon as possible then set three servitors to fortifying the position with a mixed set of turrets whilst being covered by two marine squads one strong in heavy bolters and missile the other flame and plasma which should cope with most things so early in the game. Once you have this set up concentrate on upgrading your base but make sure to leave enough space on the combat side of it for more turrets.From then on play a hold ground stratagey and build up resources once you have enough go for a relic with the two tactical squads and two assualt squads plus charactres once captured fill up barracks build with normal terminators and the machine cult with land raiders then if any normal marines are left detach characters and use them to annoy the enemy while you deploy and upgrade your new units then slowly work your way out taking points and fortifying them to the max remember to keep both build lines full and your static defences near your base maintained by servitors from then on you should have enough recources to build whatever army you want to take down a specific opponent.

[Alpha_1]

Logan,

Sorry but if you are building turrets you are going to lose a lot of games. Turrets are only useful if you are winning, otherwise they are a waste of req/power. A fully upgraded turret will run you 200/75, that is 1 marine squad with power for adding weapons.

The only time I need a turret is if I have to deal with 2 attackers at the start of the game in my base, any other time a turret just takes rewq away from the real forces.

[Cyric612]

Quick noob question what is teamspeak?
Thanks
Cyric612

[Perp]

Teamspeak is a communication software program that allows players to talk to each other via microphone headsets. The client program is free, and the server side progam costs very little. You can find more here:

http://www.goteamspeak.com/news.php

[Fritz]

One from me:

Build Whirlwinds! Priceless unit. Not only devastates morale but renders the enemy incapable of doing anything! Two whirlwinds will turn the battle for you. And most players ignore them so be cool and use them! It's the first vehicle that I make, if the enemy doesn't field many vehicles already.

[Alpha_1]

To correct Perp about teamspeak.

The server is free IF you meet the following:

You do not require payment for it's use from the users, or you use it for a clan server with only 1 server instance running.

I have an extra PC under my desk that acts as the server for our clan Space Lords Syndicate ([SLS] online), this TS server is free for our clan and friends because we are not requiring money to use it and it is for clan use. The terms of use are on the site.

The client is free no matter what, it is very good if you have broadband, if you run 56k it may reduce the games you can join by 2 players 4v4->3v3, or 3v3->2v2.

[Perp]

Teamplay

The most important thing in teamplay is communication. Find a group of guys that use Teamspeak if possible, and play with them consistently to learn their habits and aggression level. If you don't have teamspeak, well, you better be a quick typer.

Pings

Become familiar with the use of the ping buttons! There are 2 ping buttons to the bottom left of your mini map. The green one activates the ping (just click the green one, then the spot on the mini map you want to ping), and the grey one toggles the ping from "ALL PLAYERS" to "TEAMMATES ONLY".

Support

I will sometimes try to build a LP in my teammates base area if he is closer to the most likely point of first contact, and will trade him a Req point for it in my base. What this allows is for you to build buildings in each other's bases, which is a huge advantage, especially if your overrun.

No matter what, my barracks waypoint is placed where they will go to support my teammate.

If you have good communication, you can coordinate attacks, call for help, and better organize your game plan.

Clans

If your looking to join a clan you will need to look for these things:

-Good friends make the game more enjoyable. Play with people you get along with, and enjoy.

-A team really needs either a Teamspeak or Ventrillo server. Communication, as stated above, is key!

-Forums/website is essential for strategies and organization of match times, etc.

-Watch out for leaders with power trips. If they make you uncomfortable, move on. This is a game and is meant to be enjoyed!

And thanks Alpha! I had no idea they had made the server side free- thats great! We had to pay $15(?) for it a long time ago.

[Alpha_1]

No problem Apache, err Perp. :D

BTW look for a major post by me soon on improving team play in the main strategy area of the forums, I'm waiting on a reply to a PM before I post it but it will have major implications in improving random team survivabilitty against established teams.

[PinkTaco]

Whoever comes out with their Hero unit intact will almost always win the game.

this is exactly my problem with this game.

not having any way to recover from a fight is what breaks strategy games. if 1 battle decides a game, there is no way to effectivly counter. this is why i liked WC3, if you saw the enemy had a heavy counter to your units, you could TP away, and mass a counter. OR you could outmicro them and try to win anyway. the choice was the players, and both situations worked, but if you saw the other player was a better microer, unit counter is a stronger choice.

a lot of thought was involved and i like it. but with this game, early battles make/break it. its pretty crappy.

[Cyric612]

Thanks for all the info on teamspeak :) Sounds like it'd be the way to go if I start playing alot of online team games

[General Modicum]

selling turrets? I know the delete key- is that what you mean by selling? (I didn't think I got any requisition back from deleting units.)

[Perp]

selling turrets? I know the delete key- is that what you mean by selling? (I didn't think I got any requisition back from deleting units.)

You gain close to 70 req and 35 power back by reselling (deleting) a turret.


...

[LightningX]

This may be a dumb question, but I've been playing a lot against the cpu mostly with only a few games online...

Has anyone tried a viable marine rush build utilizing twin barracks? Coming from starcraft I'd always need 3 or even 4 barracks to produce the marines I wanted. Granted the squad setup in DoW is quite different, but I've been play testing a servitor - barracks - barracks build. It lets me skip scouts completely and im much more defensive against an early rush. I wasn't aware that you could gain resources by deleting... Can I delete my 2nd barracks after a few minutes when my initial res are spent for some back?

[Alpha_1]

Yes you can, but I don't adsvise skipping scouts and going double barraks.

First of all if you are in a 1v1 you will be at a serious REQ disadvantage because you were not capping points from the start with scouts. Second, if you are playing defensively and DO go double barracks you are going to lose faster because you don't have the req to expand fast enough even if you delete that second barracks (which btw gets you ~200 req back).

Perp and I tested this and while I had more men than him in the initial encounter, in later encounters I could not replace losses as fast as he because I didn't have the econnomy to do so. I was slowly forced back to lose.

It may work against less skilled players but skilled players will quickly be able to turn the tide on you because of the req difference.

However, if you decide to build a second barracks later in the game that is fine, replacing losses fast is an advanced tactic.

[Seithon]

Just a note, while losing your FC often does mean that you will lose a match, dont think that its just the end right then and there, its entirely possible to come back and win, its just that bit more harder, also, since people have the fetish with killing heros, if your own FC is allmost dead, say 1/3rd left, leave him there and pull back your remaining marines. At the end of the day its the person with the most warm bodies that win's generally, special units and weapons simply act as a multiplier on your force. (ie flamers make you tac squad of four worth twice as much since the people they fight are only half as good when broken)

[Kairon]

Awesome awesome thread Prep, really well written, great job!

On the issue of hotkeys- has anyone tried to use the num pad for accessing the hotkeys? I realize this means taking the hand off the mouse, but on the other hand you get much easier use of the all the numbers 0-9, personally my left hand rarely leaves the left side of the keyboard and I'd rather not have anything hotkeyed beyond 5-6.
I havn't actually tried this out yet, but I thought I'd bring it up.

[Thygrrr]

Kairon, it might mean taking the hand off the mouse, yeah, but why not just move the left hand, which is already on the keyboard, a bit to the right?

[Fritz]

Research the Frag grenades! Will turn most of your early battles :)

[Perp]

Backyard Playground

I was playing a 4v4 with my buds, and had all of my troops near the center of this huge map, and someone noticed that there were red dots on the mini map waaay back in my base. I hear the call "HEY PERP! THEY'RE BACK IN YOUR BASE!" Somehow, the enemy had snuck some scouts back to the rear of my base and deep strike'd three 'dreads back there. Before I could pull enough troops to get back there to stop them, he had successfully taken down my HQ, and my armory. He had also taken out my servitors- so I was stuck.

Lesson's learned:

1) In late game, leave one squad back with a sergeant (EDIT- should be Apothecary instead of sergeant) that can kill those scouts. I have heard of people leaving a Librarian back there, but a librarian can't kill those scouts quick enough to prevent the drop- whereas a squad should be able to, and if they don't, they can at least occupy the incoming 'dreads.

2) Sneak scouts into your enemy's base, then drop on him! Those dreads make quick work of buildings!!!

3) Keep at least one servitor away in reserve. Not having your HQ can really hurt you, and if you can't rebuild, well, your outta luck.

4) You can't drop or remove troops from your own Orbital Relay without an Armory. The drop troops function will say "requires Armory". I was hopeful that I could still stay in the game, and had lost my barracks, but realized my Orbital Relay can make squads, too. Well, without that Armory they are stuck in the Orbital Relay until it is destroyed. By the time they do come out, they are usually way out numbered and outclassed.

Don't let your backyard become a playground! Do onto the enemy what he would do to you!!!

[Perp]

One whirlwind can make a huge difference!

I've had a huge change in heart about whirlwinds! Last night, in a 4v4, the right side of the map was having a hard time vs. an Eldar that had gobs and gobs of ranged units. It was a blood bath. Neither side could seem to advance, and we were stuck, not able to leave the cover of our craters. I thought, what the heck, let's try some arty! Out comes the whirlwind, and as we advanced I started using the attack ground button to attack his ranged units. It was wonderful!!! The whirlwind would literally send those units flying, and as I micro'd the heck out of it, I would only launch one salvo per squad. That micro made his ranged units less effective (they were always having to stand up) and that was enough to kept him off balance, which allowed my partner and I to advance. That one whirlwind broke his siege on our position, and ultimately led to the enemy's demise.

Don't count out the whirlwind! In certain situations it can definitely make a difference! If you use the attack ground button, it will fire from it's furthest possible range, whereas if you select the target sometimes it will move forward to engage.

[nodachi]

a couple squads of scouts with snipers parked near the entrance with a librarian will ruin any scouts life.
I do the orbrush all the time, and proper intelegence is always the best way to combat this. assault maines with melta/cloaked chaos inf with rockets jumping into the enemy base to take out the relay can stop them cold, as well as a few rocket turrets scattered in your base to combat hero/orby drops.

[JackieO]

"1) In late game, leave one squad back with a sergeant that can kill those scouts. I have heard of people leaving a Librarian back there, but a librarian can't kill those scouts quick enough to prevent the drop- whereas a squad should be able to, and if they don't, they can at least occupy the incoming 'dreads."

A sergeant won't see the scouts, they do not uncover cloaked units. I leave a Librarian with a squad of marines back there.

[190 Proof]

Only one thing --

Losing the first engagement DECISIVELY will mean you will lose 95% of the time.

HOWEVER, the key to the game is knowing when to withdraw from a losing engagement. You will lose a few more troops in the pullout to random enemy fire, but if you can save your FC or a few squads, and get back in range of one of your LPs with a gun on it or even if you can just get back close to your reinforcement pipeline, you can very easily come back from an early battle defeat. Frequently your opponents will get lazy and not reinforce enough, or will stupidly follow you into range of your LP guns, or stupidly follow you into heavy cover, or while they are distracted fighting you you can go cap a few more points and get a resource advantage to overcome those early losses. Go watch Fenris' list of Top Replays and you will see many instances of coming back from early defeat.

[Perp]

A sergeant won't see the scouts, they do not uncover cloaked units.huh? You better check again JackieO...


Advanced Tactic- Bounding Overwatch

In one of last night's games, a teammate and I were engaged with those nasty orkies. As we advanced into his base, we realized that he had been hordeing up a massive army, and quickly found ourselves overwhelmed. Needless to say, we made a hasty retreat! It seemed that the orks were concentrating on my teammate, so as soon as I made it out of CC range, I stopped my troops and re-engaged. My teammate kept retreating threw my position, in which the orks engaged me in CC. As soon as my teammate was out of CC range, he too turned and fought, and I retreated threw his position. We ended up chewing up his main force in our retreat!

For those of you familiar with military terms- a bounding overwatch is the reverse of this tactic. A bounding overwatch means that as one squad advances, the other squad covers them. When the advancing squad reaches cover, they assume the covering position, which allows the 2nd squad to advance. Well, this can also work in reverse!


...

[Alpha_1]

Are you suggesting that seargents CAN see scouts Perp?

If so you are mistaken, only hero units have that ability. If you want we can test this to prove the point.

[JackieO]

huh? You better check again JackieO...

As you suggested, I checked again and confirmed what I said earlier; sergeants do not see through stealth. The list of units that see through stealth are (copied from Vertigo's post in this thread http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=41617 ):

* Commanders (FC, Librarian, Big Mek, Warboss, Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorc, FarSeer, Seer Council)
* Medics (Apothecary, Bad Dok)
* Mines (in that they are triggered by cloaked units)
* A few units in the SP campaign

[Perp]

Quote:
huh? You better check again JackieO...



As you suggested, I checked again and confirmed what I said earlier; sergeants do not see through stealth. The list of units that see through stealth are (copied from Vertigo's post in this thread http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=41617 ):

* Commanders (FC, Librarian, Big Mek, Warboss, Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorc, FarSeer, Seer Council)
* Medics (Apothecary, Bad Dok)
* Mines (in that they are triggered by cloaked units)
* A few units in the SP campaign

Alpha and I will verify this- maybe the reason why I am spotting those scouts is the Apothecary attached, and not the Sergeant. We will post our results tomorrow! (If I am wrong my apologies to JackieO, and I will edit post #49 "Backyard Playground" to read Apothecary instead of Sergeant).


...

[Perp]

After extensive testing :):

Apothecaries can see cloaked units, and are the way to go...

Sergeants, contrary to the manual, do NOT see cloaked units at all.

My original post should read- to counter the enemy from deep striking in your base, leave a squad with an apothecary, if the squad is not quick enough to kill the cloaked scouts, at least they can distract the incoming dreadnaughts. :)

Thanks all!

Another lesson learned.

[sandy77uk]

that retreat perp is known as a tactical withdrawl usually accompanied by artillery firing in close support (so close that you can suffer casulaties but it stops the enemy advancing)

its a tactic used by all modern armies when they are taking a beating or facing the possibility of being overwelmed

[Crackin]

Thanks for the hard work Perp! I know I learned a few things.

[Kairon]

Thank you Prep, really one of the most helpful threads out there, and well written, always great to learn tactics along with another person's personal experinces.
As for my earlier post about hotkeys, it seems the numpad doesn't even function for hotkeys, futhermore even if it would I have tried it and it really isn't convinient, I shall try to use the right keys of the keyboard more then.

[Northman]

I've definately learned a lot from reading this thread and the board in general. Who knew that scouts could capture requisition points? Certainly not me and my friends.

I've yet to play online ('cept against my friends in LANs and Direct Connections), but once I get the guts to try my skills against the best and brightest I'll be sure to keep an eye out for you, Perp.

[Cortona]

I've used tactical withdrawals many a time, but usually against chaos and their possessed marines. I'd usually have two squads on overwatch to automatically reinforced the recently deceased. One squad engages the possessed in hth while the other is a bit back shooting away. As soon as the hth squad starts taking too many losses, i'll retreat them behind the second squad who then engages in hth. In this way i've actually beaten a possessed squad with a chaos lord attached with two marine squads (my fc was killed earlier). I just kept retreating until i was pretty much at my base and my LP with guns joined in. By then i had a third squad built and ready to add fire support.

While it's true that losing the first engagement means you're generally up shit creek, it doesn't necessarily mean you'll lose the game. Never give up!

[Perp]

Thanks to everyone for the kind words!!!

I want to encourage people that learn a new lesson to please share it with the community, as it only makes us stronger, better players.

I snuck in a few edits in the final post, and one of the most important items that we recently found out is how to activate the other ping functions.

To have your ping say "Attack here!", "Defend here!", "Gather resources here!", etc. RIGHT CLICK on the green ping button. This will cycle you through all of the ping commands!!!

May every game you play be a great game!!!!


...

[sandy77uk]

question for you perp, I was looking at your condensed version at the top (stickyed) and was wondering why you choose HB over plasma when facing marines?

[Perp]

Good question Sandy, its a matter of early vs. late game. I, too, prefer plasma when I can get it. The problem is if your playing aggressively enough, that first skirmish will be before you can have plasma. IMHO, you should be seeking that first engagement as soon as you are at 10/10, with the first armory upgrade (which only gives you the option of flamers and HB). I personally use snipers for morale control, and thus opt for HB for my squads. After that first engagement I will start reinforceing with Plasma squads and Rockets, but these are in general a mop up crew, as I have already gained a considerable advantage over my opponent.

There is a natural lull in tech progression when you go up to HQ 1. Instead of getting the increase in the marine squad cap, I go for HQ1 first. What this allows me to do, is go into that first engagement with all of my squads on overwatch. I find that if I can control the timing of that first engagement then I give myself all of the advantages I can get. The problem (and the one you want to catch your opponent in if at all possible) is that if you are engaging when your teching up, you may not have the resources in place to keep your squads replenishing. I would rather dictate the timing of that first engagement then get caught during a tech cycle.

In 2v2 or more, I might hesitate on that first engagement (if I control more req points than my opponent), and allow my partner(s) and I time to advance up the tech tree as fast as possible. This would allow us to get more plasma, which you will definitely need against all of those heavy infantry and vehicles that bounce your squads.

[Roadkill]

Nice topic perp.

I think the most helpfull thing here for me are the targets 10/10, Armourey, upgrade squads to 4-out-of-4 heavy weaps, attack (1st encounter). Tech to Vehicles.

The problem i usually have is. I build TOO many squads (no upgrades) & get pwned by 1 artillery or 1 walker.

[Perp]

I had 3 consecutive loses against seer council/concealment rush tonight. I felt pretty discouraged, when I ran across Green Goblin's comment. He stated that its just not a good idea to play ranked games until the SC is patched. I'm beginning to agree with him!

[The Fell-Hand]

Heheh...think that was the thread I made. I'm glad a quality player is putting the effort into sharing his discoveries though. I'm sure we all (or at least most of us) learned at least a thing or two, and reviewed some important pillars of solid sm play, and play in general. I was likewise discouraged by some early eldar tactics that I simply fail to solve unless I am reasonably more skilled than my opponent, but as with rank I simply go up, get cheesed down...and then go up once more. Irritating.

Perhaps avoiding ranked games is the best thing to do. An answer after all.

[Perp]

Missiles/Plasmas don't mix, and the vanilla 'dread

I learned last night that when you mix plasma's and missiles in a squad, and tell them to engage, they will only move close enough for the missiles to fire. Just one more reason to have pure missile squads...

What I tend to do in late game is start replacing all weapon upgrades with plasma- but this may not be the best idea. I still find that flamers vs. Chaos/Eldar/Orc can be very, very important. So call me crazy, but I am going 3 plasmas and one flamer per squad. What this allows me to do is take everything down quickly that I can, and those groups that are to big for quick take down's, I still demoralize them so they aren't as effective in retaliation.

I also find myself without scouts in the late game. This is a bad habit I need to break. I keep forgetting to try to sneak them into the back of enemy bases. My play style currently (if it gets this late in the game) is to deep strike my dreads just beyond the front line of my advance (in the middle of the enemy's infantry). But deep strike has sooo much more potential- I guess I am just a brute force pusher. Something to keep in mind.

One more thing. I have stopped upgrading my 'dreads. I leave them pure CC, without the autocannon or lascannon. I also put them on attack stance so they go straight in. After re-reading some threads, I find that they do WAY more damage in CC unmodified then with the assault cannon.

Game ON!

[ix-ir]

Lesson learned: Heavy bolters are effective enough against Wartrakks to keep you alive until dreadnaughts. Just find some cover.

[Perp]

Just played a interesting skirmish with Planetkiller, and found...

We were equal in all except- he used 3 scouts. In my build order I stay strictly with 2 scouts, in hopes of reaching 10/10. I am beginning to wonder if it might be better to go with 3 scout squads, and intentionally sacrifice one to get your 3rd marine squad out. What I saw is he had one point more than I did, due to his extra scout squad, which gave him a considerable advantage in resources. Which, in turn, allowed him to get that 3rd marine squad out faster, and walaa- GG.

Revising Build order (experimental):

Servitor to barracks
Cue Scout, Scout, Servitor, Scout
1st scout to enemy side req point, 2nd scout to closest req point
2nd Servitor helps with barracks
3rd scout to next closest req
Cue Marine Squad, FC
Servitors to LP, LP, then Power plant
Cue Marine Squad, Marine Squad
Servitors to Armory.

The key here is to sacrifice through harrassment 1 scout squad, so you can still hit that 10/10 limit with three MS.

[Planetkiller]

Though no doubt that intentionally losing a scout unit will get you to 10/10, what I did in that game was simply not buy a second servitor. I'm not sure whether or not your way is better, cos it will let you get those early troops out faster... not sure, would need more experimentation to be sure.

I have also tried a 4 scout, one serv build, which sometimes works. It does mean though that you have to hold off for a little while till your investment pays off (i.e. you make more in req than the extra scouts cost). Again, you have to either sacrifice two squads de-capping and harrassing, or tech to sniper rifles early to make it worth it.

The other thing of note in that game was a piece of luck I had (and exploited), in that as the first battle was about to start, I had a seperate scout unit in a handy place to intercept and delay your second marine unit. That meant that your main forces got slaughtered without the reinforcements.

P.S. That wierd super tough scout appears to have been bugged in some way. On the replay he seemed to have the FC's regeneration ability :)

P.P.S. Since I don't think I said it at the time, gg :)

[Perp]

Time to start thinking about the upcoming F2 change

With the accuracy being driven down to 1%, having your units that are engaged in CC in Ranged Stance will be suicidal. There is some discussion that they will, in a future patch, change this feature so that even if you are in Ranged Stance, you will pull out your knife for CC. Until that day comes, I suggest this:

Make a "brunt" squad. I plan on having a brunt squad and 2 ranged squads for the early 10/10 engagement. The brunt squad will be flamers only, with the 2 ranged squads being HB. Later the brunt squad will hopefully be Assualt Marines, but I'm just not sure if that is going to be feasible before the /15 population upgrade. To entice the enemy to engage the brunt squad, I will place them slightly ahead of my 2 ranged squads. I will leave the brunt squad on versatile stance, so they will engage in CC. I fully expect that squad to take HEAVY LOSSES.

The way I have been using Assualt marines has been to hop them into the ranks of the enemy's ranged squads... This may have to be adjusted so that they are the primary engagers in CC.

Suggestions? I don't see this patch helping out Space Marines very much, and only hurting us with the F2 "fix". They are nerfing some of the other races though... :)

[Showstopper]

I don't really relied on F2-stance anyway, prefering just keep dancing and dancing until I got my HB's out.

[Alpha_1]

What good is it to pay for HBs, if they never fire because you dance? If you are going to buy a weapon put it to use as quickly as possible, wasted req/power is not a good thing.

[ix-ir]

Until.

[Slayer420]

This has been a very good thread for me. I can say I have learned quite a few techniques that I can't wait to try out from you guys. I am finding that I am way under utilizing some of the units available. For instance, I will build scouts to cap SP, but will let them get killed off fairly early on. I rarely research the cloak ability. Of course I have only played vs. Computer battles with friends online, and that works. Anyway.. keep up the good info!

[ix-ir]

Don't get your scouts killed off early. Give them sniper rifles.

[Perp]

After many trials, I am staying with 2 scouts instead of 3. In big multiplayer maps, I might go with 3, or even 4; but find that the req is so much better spent on the original build order.

Cue Scout, Scout, Servitor
Build barracks
Send first scout to closest, send second scout to second closest;
second Servitor helps with barracks... and so on.

There is some discussion about getting those assault marines out as quick as possible, and I just can't see doing this until I have my 3 MS and FC. Between my 2nd and 3rd squads is when I usually start my armory, which doesn't feasably allow for an Assault squad until that 3rd squad. Is anyone out there building the third squad as Assault? With the F2 change, this maybe the time to build it, but I just value my 3rd MS sooo much! Any opinions?

[Alpha_1]

Stick with the vanilla marines.

Reasoning:

Even after the patch another SM player (the only one that assaults would really do well for) is only going to have maybe 1 AM to your 3 TMs. Separate them by a little and they will be able to fire at any AMs that try to tie up your TMs. Assaults die fast to even regular bolter fire so you should not lose too many tacs to his assaults with support from your other 2 tac squads.

If you are going FULL assault then it is different, but as long as you have more tacs than assaults you need the support for the tacs that do get tied up in CC.

Once you do get your armory you can get a few AMs, until then vanilla is better as one AM is not as good in a fight with 3 tacs (IMHO).

[Edit]

The phrase is SET us up the bomb, not bring us up.

[Perp]

I thought my question was clear- but I will restate it.

After you have your 2 MS and have started your armory, is anyone going for an Assault squad for your 3rd squad instead of a MS? If you are, is this working?

I agree Alpha, going plasma gen, armory, assault marine for your first squad would get waxed by two vanilla MS's. And that's about what you would be at- you would just be getting out your first Assault Marines, when your opponent would have at least two Marine Squads.

What I am asking is for your 3rd squad choice, is anyone going Assault Marines? This maybe the way to go after the F2 change, due to the need for something to get tied up in CC that won't suffer from that 1% accuracy penalty. I know this will be a big change for a lot of us Space Marine players, esp. getting that Assault Marine squad out so early. In the past, I have never bothered with AMs before my /15 cap.

And Alpha, its "...set up us the bomb." Click the ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US to see the whole movie :)

[Slayer420]

Got a question for you guys. I tried out some of your suggestions last nigh concerning build order, but still had a very rough time of it in the games we played. I think I am doing something wrong. So here is my specific question.. Are you guys reinforcing the first squads you are making immediately, or just pumping them out as fast as possible and leaving them at 4 troops each? I think my problem is I build the squad and as soon as it is out start reinforcing, which of course eats into your req (which is still low at that early phase of the game).

Cheers

[Si_DoW]

I find it's best to get the two four man squads out, then upgrade both to five at same time, then both to six at same time. I then start my next squad, which I upgrade to six men. Any spare req during the 'sixing' is spent on getting heavy weapons. Once I've got 3x6 I will then start to max out the squads.

[Perp]

:D
A combination of both...

The first two squads I hit the reinforce button once each, to make them 5 man squads. After I get the 3rd squad out, and am at the 10/10 limit, then I hit overwatch on all 3 as I am waiting for the research to complete to HQ 1, and then /15 pop cap.

You have to time it so your are still able to get every LP up, and get your squads out at the same time. They are almost equal in importance...

[DormantRage]

Lesson Learned:

Has anyone tried the "always attack move option" under gameplay options? I have. I was tweakin my graphics and just put that on sorta nonchalantly. Big problem. I couldn't figure out why my squads would never move where I wanted them when in any type of engagement. I say flank right... they say no. I say tactical withdraw... they say I want to stay and fight. It was very frustrating so make sure you don't use that. It's much easier to press "A" then click where you want them to attack move to.

BTW Fantastic job Perp. You've facilitated much learning with your post. A question though. What do you all think of IronClad's 4 scout build. I've been using it with mixed success, having now converted from Chaos. I'm gonna be trying out your build because of some of the problems I've faced, but I'm not counting his out yet.

Cheers to all that have contributed to our Weapons of Knowledge.

[Slayer420]

Thanks for the advice si_dow and perp! That will probably solve a lot of my problems. I find myself constantly hitting overwatch immediately and then battling to have enough req to do the appropriate upgrades / builds.

Dormantrage - I originally used a friend of mines strat that was to start with 4 scouts and then a servitor. I have since found that it chews up alot of req early on relatively weak units. I am admittedly a poor user of scouts tho, so it may work well with a better player. I have definitely learned some very good uses for scouts just by reading this thread, but I personally think that 4 right from the start is too many, and could compromise you for that all important first battle.

[Lt Rovian]

Woot for Perp and all u other great people!! U have made 1 noob very happy. Alongside all the great advice, this is the longest thread i have yet seen that has not yet turned into a bug argument. Good on u guys! :clap: :yippee:

[Cyric612]

I have been using Ironclads four scout build and find it helps me alot in the resource department not far into the game i tend to lose the scouts as i'm not the best at keeping my units under my control (ie running when needed) but in general I enjoy using that build order
Cyric

[Perp]

I wanted to add Ironclad's four scout build for those that are interested, I use a variation of this on bigger maps like Lost Hope.


Build:
QUE 4 scouts, start barraks. QUE up 2nd serv.
Build listening posts constantly, do not stop.
Make FC right when barraks is done.
Make SM squad right when you have 200 req (should be when FC is 98-99% finished.

Once you feel that you have enough Req going in, make power gen, get up an armory and start upgrading to what you need.

If your vs ork/eldar, get HB asap for your SM squads. If your vs SM or CSM, wait for plasma/rockets.

This is just a start, and I could expand on variations and what happens in games, but I'm not sure if I want to help that much (yet ;P ). This is just a start and those replays should give you a basic ideas of how to handle those situations.

My variation is:

Cue Scout, Scout, Servitor, Scout, Scout
2nd Servitor to complete barracks (started by original Servitor)
(Hotkey both Servitors as #1)
Cue MS (Hotkey Barracks as #2, set waypoint)
Build LP
Cue FC
Build LP
Build LP
Cue MS
Build Plasma Gen
Cue MS
Build Armory
Upgrade HQ1

Its almost the same thing, but with Ironclad's you can feasibly send all your scouts over in a "Scout Rush" whereas mine is simply capturing resource points faster. I will sacrifice a couple of these scout squads early if I can, if they don't die then I may go for the /15 pop before I go HQ1.

[Drasius]

In regards to IronClad's 4 scout build, Has anyone else used infiltration with any degree of success, since it only costs 25/15, you can easily afford it(since FC costs 85 power, you have just enough without a generator*) Then have one scout squad cloak and spot for your marines when you tech to H/bolters and sniper rifles for the rest of your scouts(since the range of H/bolters and sniper rifles is more than a std unit can see?

*When you do build a generator, once compleated it instantly gives 50 power when finished(just like LP's do for req), which is coincidently the exact amount needed for an armoury)

[Perp]

Uber Units and a Plea for Good Resource Management

There are a couple of "uber" units that really play havoc with a couple of races, and they bear reminding!

Eldars hate vehicles! They are especially vulnerable to the early 'dread! If you ever find yourself down against Eldar, tech as fast as you can to 'dreads... He won't be able to handle them until LATE game.

The bane of Chaos is the Librarian! Yes, that little guy, all by himself, is a super power house vs Chaos. There have been reports of the Librarian taking down Blood Thirsters, and I have personally witnessed the Librarian going up against vast amounts of Chaos and coming out unscathed... Totally amazing! Of course, I have no idea if he was ignored or what... :)

An early turret can really save your Empirial hide against the early Orky rush... But the turret won't last long- really its just a speed bump in the way of a good orky rush. I have yet to find a single good unit against Orks, except you better have that Force Commander out, and the more flamers the better...

Good Resource Management

In the end, this game is like most other RTSs, resources make or break you (Ground Control series excepted). If your opponent out produces you on the battlefield, you are sunk. Don't forget your power and req upgrades! When in team games, those req numbers will help your entire team (if you have shared resources on) and there is nothing more frustrating then having a partner that doesn't have any power up draining you.
Using shift to build power mid-game can be a quick way to build multiple power generators without much effort. You will find that late game needs more power for your vehicles, and I always seem to have more req then power in team games. Hold that shift key and bam, bam, bam, get that power down! Your late game will thank you for it, your teamies will thank you for it, your opponents, well, they may not be to happy about it.

Which leads me to my favorite tactic, and I have said it before- in a late game standoff, deepstrike your dreads and take out his power! Dreads will kill power generators in just a few hits, and it plays total havoc with the opforce economy! To answer Drasius's question about the viability of cloaked scouts, you need them to make deep strike effective... And yes, it is well worth it. You have to sneak them in, and I have found the best time to sneak them in to a heavily fortified base is when you engage your enemy in a big battle. Get him distracted and run your scouts through his defenses to some nice remote corner of his base. Then make his backyard your playground...

Overall, spend what you make, it does you no good bankrolled! If you find your maxed out in squads and vehicles, PUSH! Use your money! You should be outbuilding your opponent! If you have gobs of money, build another base! Just don't let it sit idle!!! Control the map! Heck, Control the UNIVERSE! RAAAGH!!!!

[Drasius]

Perp wrote "To answer Drasius's question about the viability of cloaked scouts, you need them to make deep strike effective... And yes, it is well worth it."

It was more of an early game thing when you are at 10/10 in your 1st or 2nd engagement which I was wondering about the effectiveness.

Also, late game when deep striking comes into play, is it better to tie up Inf. pop for a permanent presence in their base or to simply spend 25 req for a skull probe? I have noticed that often a skull probe won't start degrading until it has reached it's rally point(and if you rally it in the enemy base...). Or is this a bug?

[Perp]

Weakest Link and the Best Of for team games.

Last night I played a great game versus xt, and must say that I learned a couple of BIG lessons!

Your only as strong as the weakest member of your team. In a 4v4, if you have one player that is not up to speed, and your playing 4 opponents that are, well, your going to lose. If you find that your constently having to pull the slack of another player, that player is a weak link. Just realize that you can play the best game of your life, but if your not getting good support from your teammates...

Choose your teammates wisely!

Another thing xt demonstrated was how effective it is to build just the best units from each race. They, for example, had Space Marines churning out squads to cover for an Eldar Teammate, that did nothing but tech up to Brightlances. 5 minutes into the game, here comes a massive Space Marine army with Brightlance support... Totally devastating!!! There was nothing we could do against the Brightlances, because we weren't even up to Missile tech!!! Excellent job xt! This shows teamwork going up to the next level!

Another lesson learned!

[Alpha_1]

It was fire prisms not brightlances. Without vehicle counters that early one Fireprism changed the course of the game. Well that and not having full support from an ally.

[Slayer420]

I have been using your suggested build order as well as a friend of mine to great success. I can definitely see a marked improvement in my skills in the past week using your BO and some slight tweaking depending on the situation. I really have to thank you for the great info in this thread.
On the topic of having a teammate that isn't up to speed, I have to completely agree. For the most part my friends and I play against the computer set to hard. Almost every time we have a certain friend playing with us, half way through the game he gets dropped. Talk about frustrating. Last night we had a great 3v3 game going and all of us were pushing straight up the map, then the pause screen comes up and a few seconds later we get the message that our friend has been booted. 5 minutes after that the computer is overrunning us. Anyway, kind of amusing today so I thought I would share that.

[Perp]

Revision of Build Order

I have found with all the rushing that continues to grow in skill and effectiveness, it is becoming more important to have the big army quicker. With that in mind, I have noticed that I keep putting off building that first plasma generator till later and later in the game.

Build order revised:

Cue Scout, Scout, Servitor
original Servitor begins barracks
Scouts to nearest req points
Second Servitor helps finish barracks build
Cue MS, FC
Servitors to nearest req point for LP
Scouts to next nearest req points
Cue MS as soon as your halfway through your FC build (and have enough money)
Continue building LPs
Cue MS as soon as you have enough money and are halfway through your MS build
THEN build your plasma gen.
Overwatch all squads
Build Armory after four to six points are capped (sooner if vs Ork- before overwatch)
Pop increase upgrade
Cue MS
HQ1
Cue MS
If at 14/15 kill one worker, cue MS.

[Drizzt DoUrden]

when your teamate sucks don't waste hours in a game trying to win - fighting 2 other players by yourself while they make turrets with their servators up their butt.

just drop and take the hit in stats and find a new game haha.

[3zekiel]

Yeah, but why not help school the n00b? If you get teamed with a fool, then educate. You're going to take the hit anyway, why not try and make sure the fool doesn't make you take another?

[Iurius]

If you have the time, maybe a good idea. You lose anyway, but you can still laugh one way or another. (Laughing for the enemy's side is allowed here)

[Perp]

Dance, Force Commander, DANCE!

When playing against great opponents, no matter what you do, if they are playing Chaos, Ork, or Eldar, you will be outnumbered in that first engagement. You have to dance your FC to keep him alive! What I like to do is set up my squads in front (in cover) and keep my FC slightly behind them as a human shield. I do not engage my FC until either a) I see their Hero unit, or b) see that they have no hero unit coming. When I see their Hero unit, I target ALL of my squads on the hero, THEN I send in my FC for some up close and personal. If I see that he is going to lose the fight, or its going to be a close one, or he is being surrounded, I start to pull him back past my squads. What this allows is my squads are still going to be hammering away at that other hero, while my hero gets a little bit of a resbit. If I can dance my hero in a circle around my squads, even better- but if they are engulfing me I may just send my Hero back home, and have the squads follow the other hero. WHATEVER HAPPENS, I have to make sure their hero is toast. If, for whatever reason, my hero goes down, that other hero better be down QUICK.

I have found that if I have 25% life left on my Force Commander, that dancing will work. Less than that, you run the risk of having him shot as he disengages. Sometimes your Hero will decide to just stand there, if that happens I can 99% of the time get him unstuck by asking him to attack another unit (usually the one right next to him) then pounding away at the mouse button for an away point. Sometimes, he just wants to fight- and its better to let him fight it out instead of just stand there like a lump on a log. This is especially true if he is completely surrounded- you may have to wait til he sends them flying to attempt another escape run.

[LiquidMK2]

Lesson Learned:

This is for SM vs SM:

Build Order:

Barracks
Scout, Serv, Scout, Scout
Scout1: Close SP
Serv2: Double Build Barracks
Scout2: Next SP
Scout3: Advance SP
Barracks: FC, MS
Serv Grouped: Double Build LP on nearest
Serv Grouped: Double Build LP2 on nearest
FC Moves to front lines with Scouts.
Queue up Second MS before first finishes
MS moves up with FC, and hunting down enemy forces with whatever scouts aren't capturing
Serv Group: Power Gen to Armory
MS's being reinforced.
Start taking SP's from enemy to draw em out.


When it comes to those early battle I like to have me FC ignore their FC. I have those two (or one if it happens really early) MS's engage their FC in melee. I use my FC to assault their Marines. The Scouts are firing on their FC. The marines (two squards preferably) should surround and deal with their FC. If they focus on my FC with units, I drop him back and let them chase, this usually pulls them up to where their FC is dying. When he is finished off, the MS's engage in melee again, and my FC comes up to deal. The Scouts are being reinfore and used to pick of their scouts/straglers. If the fight lasts long enough to get an armory, I usually get a flamer and HB on the MS and a Flamer and Sniper on the Scouts. Not a whole lot done to test it out, but it has worked well thus far.

It's not the only way to go, but if they are foolish enough to let their FC out front, he gets surrounded quick. The point is to take it to melee quickly, with the scouts firing in for support. In those first battles, your FC is a melee freak, let him get to it.

If they are smart and you hit marines before FC, get into melee as well. Fire in with scouts for support and have your FC nail thos MS's. When thier FC shows up, put every last marine in melee on him and let Your FC mop up on those closed in marines. The scouts are for ranged support. At the beginning melee defines what is happening. Those marines can't hit a brick wall when firing in close and that is where thier FC should be. Melee and let you FC/Scouts stop up the fire of thier troops. Even if you have to melee with scouts, they buy a couple of seconds where those MS's are killing the FC.

Just a thought.

[Perp]

A counter to the F2 "fix"...

This one was even more simple than I thought. I will continue to use "Stand Ground Stance" (F2), but instead of having the blue ranged weapon selected, go for the hand and weapon gold button (Versatile?). What this allows is your units still stay where you want, but if they are engaged in CC, they will pull out the knives to avoid that huge ranged penality. I've found if you select your squad and hit both option buttons this will put your squads in the Stand Ground, but versatile stances.

Will definitely have to test this as soon as the patch comes out... :argh:

[Perp]

Got suckered into a trap!

Last night, I really fell for one. I had the center locked up on Deadman's crossing, with 3 squads and my FC. It was your nice typical lets stand and shoot formation, daring them to come towards the middle critical. Well, he snuck 2 squads of scouts over to take one of the relics that my scout squad was in the process of bringing up. I thought "Easy meat, they have gotten themselves cornered" and promptly sent 2 of my 3 squads over to entrap the two scout squads.

Bad idea jeans.

As soon as I get my squads engaged with the scouts, up from behind me comes his entire force. My squads are split, and are still on the move- his stop and set up the HBs. Mine are mowed down. GG

This was a classic "I got played" move, and shows how to feint or as in chess, make a sacrifice move. If I had just stayed where I was- set up- there wouldn't have been any problem. Once I moved all of my HBs went out of play, and I payed the ultimate price. Don't get suckered!

[DeathGuard]

Same as my build order But:
Cue Scout, Scout, Servitor
First servitor to build barracks
First scout to nearest point,
Second scout to next closest point,
Second Ether Lp or Gen.
Barracks cue SM
Both servitors Ether build more LP or Armory
Barracks cue FC
Both servitors build energy, Lps
Keep spreading the scouts to points, and build your LPs

[Perp]

Pulling Units

Played a chaos player last night that was pretty high up (1500s) and he showed me how to pull units. Of course, I was trying to play without F2, and we engaged in your typical 3 squad, FC vs. 3 squad, FC drag out fight. What he did to win was PULL my units towards his main force. He would simply move forward until one of my squads engaged, then retreat back to his main force, in effect dragging my squad with him. Since we were very close together, it didn't leave much response time before one of my units was barely in front of the rest of my line, and in the direct fire of all of his troops. He killed one squad that way, then had the advantaged and pressed. It was a great game, but showed the definite need to continue to use F2.

[White_DragonZ]

Perp wrote

Marines vs. Eldar- Morale breaking and dislodgement weapons. Flamers and Snipers to break morale, and grenades to dislodge their ranged attack. Missiles for mid-game. Tip- G is the shortcut for grenade- use it!

Marines vs. Orks- Heavy bolter and snipers. Lots and lots. Tip- stay in F2 ranged stance. I even click the barracks and in the middle section of buttons make the default ranged stance.

Marines vs. Chaos- Heavy bolters, snipers, grenades, and apothecary/Librarians. Get that Chapel up as quick as you can, because you will need your librarian. Since he will outnumber you, use snipers. Apothocaries heal your units and are a must.

Marines vs. Marines- Heavy bolters. Go 10/10 as fast as you can (see rule of 10/10- in this thread).

Marines vs. Scout rush (as mentioned in the last couple of posts by Linkusmax). Build a turret in the middle of your base, later sell it.

Marines vs. Seer Council- Flamers and snipers. Go 10/10. STFN was kind enough to tell me that Flamers and snipers are what give him the hardest time, and he is a top ten Eldar guy.

cheers for this and all the info but

isn't it best to go plasma against sm and csm, with snipers and rockets,

just a question?

cheers

edit-
question for you perp, I was looking at your condensed version at the top (stickyed) and was wondering why you choose HB over plasma when facing marines?


Good question Sandy, its a matter of early vs. late game. I, too, prefer plasma when I can get it. The problem is if your playing aggressively enough, that first skirmish will be before you can have plasma. IMHO, you should be seeking that first engagement as soon as you are at 10/10, with the first armory upgrade (which only gives you the option of flamers and HB). I personally use snipers for morale control, and thus opt for HB for my squads. After that first engagement I will start reinforceing with Plasma squads and Rockets, but these are in general a mop up crew, as I have already gained a considerable advantage over my opponent. :blah:

sorry, hehe o_0

cheers :beer:

[White_DragonZ]

QUOTE BY PERP

Hotkeys

from BlacksandTLSC-

Quote:
I hotgroup my barracks, armory, and machine cult as '2', '3', and '4', respectively.
'1' is my servitors.


This is awesome! Putting on training cap for tonight's hotkey madness! To group bind press CTRL + # while the unit (or in this case, the building) is selected.

cool.

what should we do if we have 2 barracks, machine cults, have 1 on a seperate number key, or group both on 2, or 3.

also what keys can be used to group squads.

[Perp]

what should we do if we have 2 barracks, machine cults, have 1 on a seperate number key, or group both on 2, or 3.

also what keys can be used to group squads.

Its all a matter of personal preference in regards to micro-management... If you find that you are concentrating more on the battles, then having your barracks as a hotkey is essential- if you find yourself spending more time in your base, then you would want to have your squads hotkey'd. Whatever you feel more comfortable with is fine... :D

I personally stay with Servitors as 1, Barracks as 2, Mech Center as 3, Orbital Center as 4. I like to micro my troops in the field, and spend most of my time there, and since my playstyle is to have 3, 4, or even 5 marine squads out with 2 scout squads, I don't really hotkey my troops. I do think that the 1500+ players are probably hotkeying troops to dance them better, but I'm just not sure yet.

[Iurius]

I tried this, and I think it works as well, you can still micro without assigning hotkeys to all of your squads.
Although I still do to squads which I use as support, as Ithey tend to be out of sight...

[azmodean]

I will continue to use "Stand Ground Stance" (F2), but instead of having the blue ranged weapon selected, go for the hand and weapon gold button (Versatile?). What this allows is your units still stay where you want, but if they are engaged in CC, they will pull out the knives to avoid that huge ranged penality.

The only problem with this is any individuals that the enemy does not come into contact with will not contribute. If they can shoot while the rest of the squad does melee, they will be useless due to 1% accuracy. If they cannot shoot while the rest of the squad is in cc, they will just stand there. Not saying that f2 isn't the best option, but just not as flawless as you seem to think.

[Perp]

The only problem with this is any individuals that the enemy does not come into contact with will not contribute. If they can shoot while the rest of the squad does melee, they will be useless due to 1% accuracy. If they cannot shoot while the rest of the squad is in cc, they will just stand there. Not saying that f2 isn't the best option, but just not as flawless as you seem to think.

This looks like it is going to be a problem. If you read my "Pulling Units" section on pg 7, you will see if your not in F2, you run the risk of being pulled into enemy fire; but if you do use F2 you may not fully engage in CC. Relic has stated that dropping the accuracy down to 1% is a temporary fix, that they hope to get the game back into the setting of when units engage in CC, they will engage in CC no matter what stance they are in. Hopefully that patch will be shortly after the one that is already expected.

Needless to say, I think Space Marines will be hurt the most by the upcoming F2 "fix", and we, as Space Marine players, need to come up with some viable alternatives until it is truly fixed.

[Staralfur]

I try to avoid conflict until I have 10 marines, FC and an armory (at least on the way)

I micro to cover, keep marine squads seperate, use them to focus on their commander - then when armory drops, flamers.

Fire burns everyone.

Everyone.

[Perp]

Overusing Overwatch

I have noticed that if I am to quick in starting overwatch on my units, I don't have enough req to do more important teching...

I have started to just hit the reinforce button once or twice per squad before that first big fight. What this does is provides me with a modest force to engage in that first battle, while still allowing me to get that armory and HQ1 upgrade as soon as possible. If that first engagement doesn't occur quickly, then tech up as fast as you can... If that first engagement is close, you can still use the req that you were saving up for overwatching...

I think it comes down to a philosophy of not overly tieing up your req before your actually using it. If you keep it available you have more options on how to adjust to different situations. But, I do not suggest on holding it any longer than it takes to save up for your next upgrade, if your sitting on it, you can be assured that your opponent is spending it and will outproduce you. By all means, USE YOUR REQ. It does you no good at all in the bank- it is much better spent on units in the field or upgrades.

[HermieSaddlewhk]

Fairly off topic, and I apologize. However, folks lurking around this thread seem to be the brightest of the bunch...
One recent game I played was quite distressing. I was playing 2v2 with a friend, both of us SM. Two of my boltered SM squads and FC (2 bolts each... this happened so soon I did not get that upgrade) went up against one Chaos marine squad, FC, and a whole gaggle of cultists armed with... grenade launchers. I have not seen people using this too much, but man oh man those things ripped the heck out of my squad. I outnumbered and out-gunned 'em, but they made short work of my force in seconds. Any suggestions for countering this? Again, they killed my guys so fast I didn't even have a chance to target the cultists (who were behind the enemy squad and enemy FC). Thanks!

[Perp]

...a whole gaggle of cultists armed with... grenade launchers...they made short work of my force in seconds.

If you notice Hermie, my 1v1 stats where at 1300 yesterday with 76% wins, and this morning the are at 1269 with 69% wins. We are all having BIG problems countering this.

Lets break down the Chaos build order (that I have seen):

Heretic to barracks (forced labor)
Cultist
Cultist
Heretic to Generator
Heretic to Armory
Research Grenade Launchers
Cultist
Cultist
CMS
FC
Rush

Or something along those lines. And Chaos is getting that Armory out much faster than your standard marine build order, because we are trying to counter the rush with 3 MS and a FC.

If we knew we were facing a Chaos player we could adjust our build order appropriately, and possibly scout rush vs the Cultist grenade rush, and take out his workers before they completed the armory (and this is what I suggest if you know who your fighting against in a 2v2, though Scout rush will put you in a weaker position mid-game when his partner shows up with reinforcements). But in a 1v1, you have no idea what race he is until first contact, and by then it is way too late to counter.

I don't really have a good solution- the rock, papers, scissors approach would say Cultist grenades beats MS, and we don't have a _________ beats Cultist grenades until we have our armoury up and are headed into tier 2. Scout rush works if you know, but if you don't know, Scout rush will get you killed against orksies and a regular chaos build...

ANY SUGGESTIONS?

[apettican]

Perhaps this tells us to spend 25/15 on cloaking early and find out what we are facing. Haven't tested this, will leave it up to better players than me, but I suspect that an armoury after 2nd MS is the answer, allowing HB's much quicker. HB's (perhaps with cloaked spotter squad) should mow through cultists before they do much damage. This is not such a bad option as a general build, as HB's are pretty effective against anything you may meet early game.

Another option may be to try and use first MS to take out a squad of cultists before they A) have too many, and B) get the GL's.

A third alternative that i'm sure you are all going to shoot down in flames is to hide your first 2MS and FC behind an HB turret.

Will be interested to hear your opinions/playtest results on these.

Andy

[RisingPhoenix]

Well to pull this strat the chaos player has to be either lucky or scout himself. Speaking as a Marine/Ork player, the grenade launchers are counterable by standard Ork, and a scouting eldar can easily shred the cultists with WS. Therefore he has a tactic that works against one race (maybe two if you count chaos). So he has to scout.

Personally my bet is that this isn't beatable until heavy bolters. Therefore the best bet is probably throw up a turret, which will hold him back until the armory is done. Then get heavy bolters and sniper rifles. I haven't played against it, but he's taking a huge risk running 4 cultists squads (40 cultists will last less then 15 seconds against heavy bolters).

[User]

To hide behind a turret is maybe going to save your troops but a normally adept heretic will gain a strong hold on SPs, CLs and relics and if you're slow it might even win him/her the game on a Take & Hold victory.

I don't have the numbers ready, but i think an armory takes 120 seconds to build - 2 minutes which will generate income for your opponent. I don't see how a Space Marine player will be able to recover this disadvantage. So i rather sacrifice a scout squad in an early recon mission. And most times you will be able to pull out your scouts anyway.

Just a thought though, haven't met this kind of attack yet. And i doubt i will see it soon, since i have troubles downloading the patch...

[Perp]

HB's (perhaps with cloaked spotter squad) should mow through cultists before they do much damage.

Awesome idea! I have always waited until later in the game to research the cloaking ability, but sense you guys have been talking it up, I have found what I have been missing... Cloaked scouts do give you a bit of warning- and if used properly can also give your HB guys a little longer time to fire! Great idea!!!!

[Taliesyn]

I ran into a guy doing this exact build, but managed to beat it by charging my marines and FC into hand to hand while my scouts stayed back shooting. And overwatch to keep up with the casualties pretty much meant no armory for a LONG time...but it was worth it, since I won the battle and eventually the game. Not sure how that would work against someone better with chaos, but I was facing a LOT of grenade cultists and a CL.

I was gambling on the fact that marines outdamage cultists in melee and have better armor and hp, so he could fight and lose or dance and get chewed up by the various troops.

Edit: And Perp, I've found researching Infiltrate right after getting all my scouts and servitor built helps immensely, if for no reason other than to park a scout squad behind his base to just barely see what comes out of the barracks.

[CMDR_Wedge]

Hey all, i've been following these forums for a bit now, and finally decided to join up to add my worth.
Nice work Perp, shows sum1 whos not afraid of being beaten or selfish.

My BO is very similar to what u have figured out except for a few exceptions.

scout, scout, scout, Builder.
1st builder is building a barracks
send those scouts out to cap SP's
by the time the builder has been made the first point has just been capped, use this builder to build a listening post.
send that scount onwards
builder that has finished barracks build powerplant
Barracks builds force commander then 2 marine squads
the builder thats been building listen posts continue doin that
while scouts continue capping points, when they have capped all "ur" points mass them together to get ready to hold off their rush. (do not rush urself)
After the powerplant is build build armory. Hero and 2 squads should be ready, build squad ugrade. Get grenades as soon as possible.

As for later in the game tactics i find the Jetpack marines very very usefull, im surprised many of u ppl here havent discovered their uses in middle to late stages of the game. They are the single most decisive units in the game i have found. Used well they can split most enemy forces, and am yet to find a suitable defence against them.

BTW: i dont normally play 1v1's so this is more of a team tactic, ( i'm a sponsered player from a lanning company for Battlefield Vietnam, and this game is just a couple of my clanmates pastime so i dont play much net, more LAN, but if i'm on the net say hello).
Wedge

[Firaya]

You know, the idea of early Infiltration seems like a good one. Perhaps leaving one scout behind enemy lines to assault his builders during your first engagement might just buy enough time / distraction that will win the game. Just have to keep a lookout for the hero units though!

[Perp]

The value of a second base... (Multiplayer Only)

I played an 8 person free for all (ffa) yesterday, and I must say, if you haven't tried it, it's very fun! We were on Lost Hope, and I took the three req points at the bottom of the map. I promptly started a second HQ down there, and boy am I glad I did! My intentions were to outproduce my opponents with having an extra 8 power plants (which I did) but ended up losing my first HQ early. Having my second HQ up and running really saved me the game, as I outlasted all of my opponents!

The benefits of having a second HQ are obvious but need to be restated:

1. Double the power capabilities.
2. Redundency if you lose your primary base.

In big multiplayer games that drag on, this really can help you or your team go over the top to win! If you have money to burn, use it!!! I even build extra mech centers closer to the action to help get those predators out faster. And oh yeah, I am starting to use predators over Land Raiders- but I will save that for later after I find the actual stats on both. :D


I find the Jetpack marines very very usefull, im surprised many of u ppl here havent discovered their uses...

Wedge, couldn't agree with you more... Post-patch shows the Assault Marines as being a necessary part of all build orders. Haven't figured out quite yet where they fit in, but hopefully we will start seeing some new build orders here soon. I think everyone is still experimenting with the changes made in the patch. I can see them coming in to replace either the third or fourth MS slot...

[White_DragonZ]

hey perp, whats ur view on transports, (i don't mean how they should be changed,etc)
but do you have any strategys or tactics for them....


oh and drop pods, turrets and..........um........commanders (for commanders i personally use them at the start while everyone is still teching, but after tier 2 i keep my fc and librarian in my base, unless im going for a game winner, where i send everything against my opponent, i like their abilities, (orbital bombardment anyone?)
but find they are targeted by everything at the start.

cheers

edit- also what is your faviourite attack tactic, select few (like sending out vehicles, deep striking, etc)

or

by the masses(there's nothing like a swarm of sm to make ur opponent mess himself)

cheers

[Tiresias]

on a recent 8 player FFA it came down to me and another player, and I was saved by the fact I'd built up two other bases, with complete production centres

he couldn't stop the flow of troops from different directions, and i didn't care how much he attacked my origional base

[HermieSaddlewhk]

Funny thing about orbital bombardment...

When I play SM vs. SM games (often big team games), I've more or less found that there is a code of honor when using OB. When both me and the opponent stay away from it, everything goes well. If one of us does go for that nasty 'lil button, the game immediately turns into an orbital bombardment pissing match. Often these are big games, so the FC on each side will do OB at least 3 times a game. It gets quite annoying after a while! I've also found that when using OB against opponents of all races (Armies, that is) , it brings out the worst in 'em. Opponents rightfully feel the need to use any and all cheap tactics against me after it. So I stay away from OB unless I absolutely have to.

[Hellman109]

OB is great to kill off static defenses and a quick DS and OB on there base... nasty little trick I love...

The enemy often dont like a DS of 2 marine squads and 2 dreads and perhaps some termies... OB half there buildings and kill a few more with the units.

I tend to target power at that stage of the game, or production, if there SM I always hit the armoury, as it stops there DS atleast for a bit and can win the game when they have units awaiting DS.

[Stazbumpa]

I managed to call an Orbital Bombardment on my own FC by accident last night.

It wasn't funny at the time :-/

[Drasius]

"Wedge, couldn't agree with you more... Post-patch shows the Assault Marines as being a necessary part of all build orders. Haven't figured out quite yet where they fit in, but hopefully we will start seeing some new build orders here soon. I think everyone is still experimenting with the changes made in the patch. I can see them coming in to replace either the third or fourth MS slot..."

I had a very close game a while ago(pre patch) and found that useing a 4 scout build, losing 2 scouts to harassment and popping a assault marine squad worked rather well.

Simply jump the AM's ontop of a ranged squad in cover, then use your tac squads to take care of his other troops. If he turns his tac squads on the AM's, he's firing into cover while your tac squads are ripping him up, if he ignores them, he loses that squad the AM's are taking on. If he runs, micro the AM's, they are faster than a tac squad(don't let him string you out though and isolate the AM's though). They are also rather easy to get out of a bad situation if you have a jump handy.

You may use a bit more req in the end though you will need less power. They should also be able to give sniper scouts some difficulty early(before there are to many of them) since they are just as fast and will eat them alive in CC.

[Hellman109]

any unit engaged in CC gets the same bonus as light cover, if there in light cover already or heavy cover Im not sure if they add on or what... but you will have atleast light cover on a force that has strong defense and is killing there potent raged units... either way you win.

[Perp]

The Dread Shuffle and my FC has Sticky Feet!

White Dragon asks what's my view on transports and I can only reply with the Dread Shuffle...

The Dread Shuffle

This is a late game tactic, but I find it very enjoyable :D. What I do is build a mech center right next to my Orbital Relay, and waypoint the mechs so they walk right up to the OrbRelay. Both the Mech Center and the OrbRelay spam out Dreads as fast as they can so that there are 3 dreads in the Relay, and 3 dreads ready to hop into the relay.
When I make my drop with my dreads, I immediately load the next 3 in, for a quick second wave. From this point on, if I wipe out an opponent (in big Multiplayer games) I end up walking my damaged dreads back to the OrbRelay, where my servitors are still waiting, for a quick heal and reload. This way, no matter if I am at the 20/20 mech limit, I always have fresh dreads anywhere on the map. I call this the Dread Shuffle, and prefer to be able to drop my dreads into battle then walking them in (their so dang slow!). BTW- I usually build my OrbRelay somewhere near the center of the map, as kind of a forward base, with a mech center nearby. I hotkey the Mech Centers as 3 and 4, with the OrbRelay as 5 (1 is Servitors, 2 is barracks).

My FC has no rhythem, 'cause he can't DANCE!

I am finding more and more that when my FC engages in CC with another FC it is better to just let him slug it out. If I try to move him, he stands there like a lump on a log... I've heard this described as the "Hammer Stun" or some such, but just be aware, if he engages, he is commited. Best to dance before they actually tangle, or run if you knock his FC down.

[Perp]

Just A Few Team-mate Tips
Just a nudge to see if we can't get more people playing cooperatively... :beer:

Barrack waypoints for support
When in a center position (ie I am in the middle with teammates on either side), I will always support my teammate. The quickest and surest way not to let him down is by placing my barracks waypoint over on my teammates side, near where he should be making first contact. From that point on, everything I build will automatically go DIRECTLY to supporting my teammate, each and every time. I can't stress how important doing this is, and how much your teammate will appreciate seeing a constant stream of reinforcements.

Cap-ing points and power
Always build your listening posts! Don't leave naked req points that your enemy can easily de-cap. With shared resources on, each capped point improves your team's req income. I always go ahead and put the first turret on those points, too.
Don't forget your power!!! Get all of those plasma generators up as soon as you feasibly can! If you find yourself mid to late game with a lot of req, hold that shift key down and cue- build as many plasma generators as you can! It will really help your team out as you start spamming power hungry vehicles.

Fight together in coordinated attacks
The army that fights together wins together. Coordinate those attacks! Push together, retreat together- try to be as one- supporting each other. If your race is good infantry, and your teammates race has awesome vehicles, you spam marines, and let him spam vehicles... [xt] does this with marines and eldar tanks, and I tell you it is VERY EFFECTIVE.

Don't forget to Ping!
The ping is the most useful tool in coordinating attacks, whether you use teamspeak or not. You can attempt to describe where you want someone to go- and have that person try to decipher where the heck on the map you are talking about, or you can ping. One method (describing) takes 15 seconds or more, the ping takes 1 second. If you right click on the green ping button you can cycle between different types of pings- everything from "Defend Here!" to "Attack Here!"...
If I had to nail down the most important thing in this whole thread, it would be to ping.

[Perp]

Scout Harrassment


You know, the idea of early Infiltration seems like a good one. Perhaps leaving one scout behind enemy lines to assault his builders during your first engagement might just buy enough time / distraction that will win the game. Just have to keep a lookout for the hero units though!

Scout harrassment comes in several forms... Decapping points that haven't been upgraded is one, setting up in an enemy base to see what he is producing and having a back entrance for later orbital drops is another. Everytime you can decap a point, you put yourself ahead in the req game!!! I have come around, and now believe that researching "cloaking" is a great idea early in the game.

Revised build order

Cue Scout, Scout, Servitor, Cloaking
First scout to closest Req
etc...


Colored boxes = COOL

Have you noticed that when you group select your army, your squads have different colored boxes? Blue is for Heavy Bolters and Red is for Flamer. It makes it simple when you are trying to select squads to put on F2 (ie the blue ones for me) and which ones to put on versitile stance (ie the red ones). I also move my red squads up a little, so they engage in CC before my blue squads... Missiles and Plasma also have their own colors, Green and Purple!

[Stazbumpa]

Your quite clever aren't you really :bandit:

[Perp]

Marines vs Marines in 1v1- hard lesson learned...

I went Marines vs Marines last night, and had someone do something totally unexpected! They came at me with nothing but assault marine squads! Oh the humanity!!! So here we go in that first engagement, my flamers and heavybolters start firing... He jumps in and matches one squad of assualts per each of my one squads of marines. Now my heavy bolter guys look like they are doing some kind of jig as they rock their HBs like they are trying to jab them with it. Totally humilating! I lost all three squads in no time. Assault Marines eat Space Marines for breakfast, especially after the f2 patch.

Lesson learned- after you find out your up against another Space Marine player (only in a 1v1) its time to go all assault. Match your assault squad for squad, and you will totally decimate your opponent.

[Calurion]

Perp, and everyone else who has donated to this thread: I would like to thank you. You've taught me how to become a much better player. Everytime I have passed over a bit of your wisdom and lost, I've come back here and read about what would have made me victorious.
Thanks :)

[Geiser]

ok i have read alot of posts 2day and i must say i see alot tactical correct moves. i am a 2v2 and i got a question. what do u guys think is the best race combo to play with? i dont play rts games in 1v1 cause then it aint strategic but then its tactical. teamplay is what counts in rts games and thats why i play 2v2. i am a SM player cause i think in a 2v2 game u cant miss the defence advantage SM have over the other races. gimme some oppinions about the best race combo , would be nice to hear.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Missiles and Plasma also have their own colors, Green and Purple!

Plasma's box is actually yellow. Purple box signifies a combination of weapon upgrades.

[CMDR_Wedge]

Yay, i'm glad people are starting to see the benifits of Assault marines, another tactic i use is once u have decimated their starting forces, move them right into their base, ur first upgrade at the armory should be meta bombs, and jumppack 2 or 3 squads(whatever u have remaining after the first battle) right into their base. use meta bombs on their barracks or armory then get out of there. Congratulations, u have basically won the map.


gimme some oppinions about the best race combo , would be nice to hear.

i know i'm not perp, he can add his own here, but i find the best combination of teams is SM and orks. Orcs for the begining rush, while space marines to own the final stages.

[Perp]

use meta bombs on their barracks or armory then get out of there.

Awesome idea!!! I might actually have to start using Metabombs now... And Wedge, please continue to add!!! This is hopefully a community effort :D

I still can't get past the Eldar\Space Marines combo that [xt] is using... Space Marines spam infantry, Eldar quick techs to vehicles and spams tanks... VERY NASTY, especially when you don't have missiles yet to counter the vehicles...

[Perp]

Full up or half baked

When reinforcing a battle, sometimes you will need to make a decision on what size squads you want to reinforce with. In a battle that is close, waypointing your barracks to the battle and sending half-baked squads in is exactly what you may need to turn the tide...

If your starting to lose a battle, these half-baked squads may lead to your detriment. I find that when I am losing a battle, it maybe better to pool your squads to a staging area, and let your opponent take the area that he was fighting for. As they are staging, they are overwatching to max size and weapons, allowing me to make a full effort towards retaking the spot instead of a trickle in to reinforce.

Last night I kept trying to send in squads of assualt marines that were only 4 or 5 strong. When looking back at the replays, they may have stood a better chance if the AM squads had been full up, and went in together. I know we all hate to sacrifice a point, but in some instances, especially against chaos, throwing in half-baked squads is just simply a waste.

[The Fell-Hand]

Indeed perp, team wise my partner and I also can't seem to handle marine spam/eldar vehicle spam. In fact it's hurt us so much that it really does seem like we need to diversify, race wise. But if you do figure out any viable counters, other than seriously outplaying them early game which can be hard on large maps, please, do, do tell.

[ChickenFodder]

I have the hardest time with eldar when they are teamed with any other race. I find them one of the hardest races to play against if you allow them any time to tech up at all and in multiplayer they usually have a friend to help them do just that. As for combo's I like to play my marines with an orc player and have him handle the cc in the begining with my marines behind them providing fire.

Oh yeah and going back a bit pay attention and listen to your partners ping's or at least tell them that you can or can't or won't be able to. Had a 2vs2 on quatra last night where they staggered the teams so you were not right next door to your ally. SM+Orcs vs SM+Orcs I pinged my partner early to attack the orcs and get rid of them first and commited allot of my starting force. Unfortunatly he decided to raid the SM's instead so I lost allot of men then had to pull back then got trapped in my area having a very hard time getting out to support him when the space marines drove him off and followed him back to his base. A quick reply and I would have changed tactics. Probably my fault to some extent he may not have been paying attention to the pings and I should have checked before commiting.

[Scalphunter]

hey thanks for your efforts everyone. you guys are really helpful. :)

[Perp]

The beauty of the Space Marine/Eldar Team combo

I experimented a lot last night with 3v3 race combos. I ended up playing the middle Eldar player, and really think that Space Marine/Eldar is the best combo for team games.

Eldar with Chaos produces problems later in the game. Mercy, a bud of mine in AFL, likes to play Chaos. Whenever I would Eldar vehicle support him and he had possessed, my Brightlances would knock him around as much as the enemy- because he was engaging in CC. Not a good combo.

Orcs with Eldar are no good either- same reason. Orks are a CC race, and later when the Eldar start using bouncy weapons, it hurts the CC guys as much as the enemy.

Space Marines with Eldar vehicle support rocks! Space Marines keep enough distance between the enemy and themselves as not to be affected by the bouncy effect of the Brightlance. Totally devastating.

One word of warning about playing Space Marine/Eldar combo- get those kills in early to mid-game. Eldar tends to hit a plateau of effectiveness mid-game, then goes downhill. Space Marines can take up the slack, but you don't want to go Late game with this combo if at all possible. Eldar vehicles just don't seem to last to long in the late game vs Predators and Land Raiders.

[mercurcio]

I used to play the miniatures version of this game and one thing that I never liked about plasma was that it had the same range as the rifles. HB and missiles have good range so if you go with plasma have a HB and missle squad behind it.

[Delta]

Hey guys,

AWESOME thread! Seriously, this has rekindled my enjoyment of the game incredibly.

I have one request, though. Can you post more on mid-game strategies? Your build order experimentation has helped me understand the start of the game (10/10, etc.)...and talking about AM's has gotten me thinking about incorporating them into my strats, as has all the talk about 'dreads on attack mode, etc.

But do you have any other specific strats you use? What do you aim for, for example, in terms of troops in mid/late game - AMs, Terms, etc?

Thanks in advance !
Delta

[Calurion]

I really appreciate this thread, but I have a question, this might also tie in with ^.
I often find it difficult to decide when to attack. When I started playing I would usually go for the center of the map, if I claimed it, I often won, if I didn't I usually lost. Now, this isn't so certain. When is the best time to attack? If you beat off your enemies inital claim for the center and it appears substantial, should you chase em back to their base?
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Delta, I'll give you some advice that I've found useful.
Get those dreds rolling out once you hit tier 2, the decision to tech usually is decided on how hard your enemy has attacked you. I usually like to have a couple dreds, and two or three squads of AM and then back it up with plasma and missilers. For tier three, base everything around your orbital and you will find much more success. With the orbital you can provide help anywhere it is needed. I followed a few people's advice here and both builds dreds in my machine pit and in the orbital and then drop em into the fray. Get a full squad of missilers and attach the librarian (make sure you have emperors word). If you enemy has turrets or lots of vehicles, drop the squad and engage emperors word. Your enemies defenses will fall incredibly fast.
Just try to think one step ahead of your enemy, if he hasn't attaked or retreated easily, tech up and get those missiles ready for vehicles.
Don't put all your eggs in one basket, saving all your req and energy so you can get an orbital and one terminator squad is going to get you killed. Use predators to kill, and land raiders as meat shields.
Use your grenades and melta bombs and pay attention to morale. They can turn the tide.
Also, don't try to launch a big army through a small opening. I've lost a couple times on Kasyr because of the obstacles on the sides, my enemy would be able to mow down squad after squad as they came through and I was unable to muster a full force at one time.

[lee74133]

Hello everybody,

Fantastic thread, the advice has really made me question my method of not enaging early, building a defence and waiting for that big battle with all my pred and dreads.

I have a question, with space marine squads do you think it's more advisable to weapon specific squads or each squad have a mix?

Perp and everybody else keep up the good work, of helping out your fellow players.

[Andaius]

Mid/late game strats can be wildly different, there no one "Uber" strat, you have to read your opponent, with scouts/probes and see what he's up to to construct your attempt at recking his plans for victory.

My suggestion would to be see what he is doing and build a force that will defeat it in detail, then quickly follow up with you remaining force to smash his econ and military production facilities.

Or if you don't know what he's up to try to make a well rounded force and launch a raid, and then reinforce or retreat as needed. Now strat will work all the time, so you have to adapt to the situation always.

[Perp]

Late Game suggestions

I agree with Andaius above, there are no uber strats or perfect build orders, or we would all be using it :). Here are my suggestions on late game...

My late game centers around the "Dread Shuffle", termies, plasma squads, predators, orbital bombardment, and infiltrated scouts.

Some things I try to do-

Match up my dreads vs enemy structures and static defenses. Vanilla dreads are the obvious choice for wipeing out an enemy base, and I always follow the "Dread Shuffle" I mentioned earlier.

Main force has Predators for anti-vehicle, Termies for anti-infantry, and a couple of plasma squads for support. Make sure your units are targeting what they kill best- it is a waste for termies to target anything but infantry unless they have hammers. I always pre-drop my termies, so they are at full squad strength before they reach the battle. Apothicaries help my squads stay up, and the librarian helps with his special abilities. Usually the Force Commander is in the rear with the gear, and only comes up for Orbital Bombardment on massed static defenses.

I will usually feint with the Dread drop, wait to see if he engages the dreads, then move in with the main force. If he is ahead, I will feint a full scale attack with my main force, draw all his units forward, then Dread drop and take out his orbital first, armory second, then his power.

Late, late game, I always build a second HQ, it's just a nice thing to have. I usually have the req to burn, and a second HQ allows you to build another 6 plasma generators. I will always have a second mech center by this time, too. Sometimes on big maps like Lost Hope, I will build this "Second Base" much nearer my target, so dreads don't have a long walk to heal and reload in my orbital.

The best defense is to be in his backyard poundin on his base. Stay on the offensive!!!

[Dymo]

The time to go is when you have 2 squads of 4-6 troops, with more on the way, and there is a small yellow dot on the screen infront of your base that needs some loving.
Just be heads up incase the other guy across the map had the same idea. ;)

Perp said it right. Stay on the Offensive whenever possible. If your backing up, your dieing...

[Perp]

Landspeeders > Eldar

Played a game last night against a great Eldar player... We fought all over the map, I taking the majority of points, he coming back and retaking points... He eventually rushed me with what seemed 3 to 1 banshees to my marines- pushed me all the way back into my base, and I start to play catchup. I built a turret in my base, and got out my first vehicle- a landspeeder. He killed the first landspeeder, but the next 2... well, I wiped him out! As he fleet of footed his butt out of my base, my landspeeders had no trouble AT ALL keeping up with him, killing him all the way back to his base. Then I got a dread out and it was all over.

Lesson Learned- against Eldar- Landspeeders ROCK!!! It completely negates fleet of foot, and sense my opponent kept massing infantry, my landspeeder force (which was 5 near the end) totally devastates Eldar- who basically don't have the equivelent of infantry missiles. He eventually got those mini- vehicles out against me, but my troops and dreads went after those, and everything turned out just fine. :bandit:

[Delta]

Quick note of thanks for the mid/end-game suggestions :)

[Perp]

Ingame Chat note!!!

To whisper to someone while your waiting for a game to start and are sitting inside a game lobby (not the general lobby like Segmentim Solar) just press / and the first few characters of the name...

ie- /DarthChiken

Then you will whisper to that person!!!!

[apettican]

Damn Perp, you just keep on getting better.

Pre game whispers who'd have thought.

Andy

[jesukrixto]

Scouts for harassing are overlooked in this thread i think. 4 scout build, with the 2 first squads for harassing, like capping/uncapping strat points even at the enemys base are great. Or killing builders if it's against chaos, disturbing his capping squads...u've the advantage, coz scouts r 1 cap, while his early units r 2. So u can have 2 scouts harassing, n 2 more scouts capping.

If he's having trouble getting rid of those 2 harassers, then send the fc to help them as soon as he's out. Don't let those scouts die, overwatch them as soon as they come out of ur HQ, as u know they'r gonna need firepower. Sounds like lots of req, but that way they can uncap points in theyre base while beign shot at, n still survive. U can slow down his game a lot, n demoralise him a lot too...U have to pay a lot of attention to ur scouts, but it's worth it.

It's funny I begun using this tactic after seeing it posted in one of those threads that state that scouts r overpowered...one of those top lvl players said he had lots of trouble with those 2 first maxed scout squads right in his base...

Not as effective against orks, as their buildings will kill ur scouts, but u can still harass him close to his base. N u'll own chaos, particularly if u manage to kill his force-labor heretic while he's building his barracks:)...

It's not really a scout rush, as ur not relying on ur scouts to win the game...it's more like heavy scout harassing. It works wonders.

When I go for 2 scout squads, I always get the 2nd serv b4 the scouts. That way I have my sm squad earlier, n they can be the harassers...the 2 scouts cap points close to my base, while the sm have the waypoint set to a point close to the enemy's base (not inside the base). They usually get there while the point is beign capped, thus making the enemy lose lots of time...if he stops capping, good 4 u, if he doesn't stop, kill as many cappers as u can, then uncap the point as soon as he's done capping it...uncapping takes less time than capping, n uncappin marines r tough guys:)...He'll prolly just put an lp on it to prevent u from uncapping, but at that point ur disturbing his strategy, n forcing him to react, n u prolly have ur fc runnin to the fray already, n then another sm, then maybe a nearby scout, then another sm...

I guess I just like the offensive, but I never play for take n hold. Even if the game is not set to annihilate, I still think wiping him out of the face of earth is much more effective than fortifying around a given position and letting him prepare a planned assault on ur position. Then once it's imposible 4 him to win u can cap the CLs n wait those 7 minutes:)

This is 1v1 tactics, mind u. Although early harassing is just as effective in larger battles, particularly with shared resources, coz u harm the whole other team. It's just more difficult u'll be able to transform the harassing into a succesful player-killin rush, coz if u start demolishing his base, his allies will come n help him. But if ur just harassing one of the opponents with scouts, most ppl will just let that player deal with the scouts while they follow their traditional BOs. Particularly if the ppl u'r playin against don't have that much experience, they'll tend to think that scouts r a weak unit not deserving much attention...some ppl just don't realize how harmful scouts r for the opponents economy. I think that's where their real strength lies. N those cool sniper rifles too:)

My problem with using scouts is kind of ethical though, as lots of ppl say scouts can be easily abused...N at some points I think they'r rite...but then again, grenade launchers can also be abused, as wartraks can...every race has a broken unit...except post-patch eldar, lol (unless u ask an ork player what they think of ws...then again, if u ask an ork what they think of scouts they'll say there's no prob with them...)

Wow, this reply turned out to be way too long...whatever, hope sbody finds it useful.

PS: Perp, urs was the first post I ever read at relicnews when lookin for strats using SM, n dude, I think u've done an excellent job at getting all those tactics together, n also at getting an active thread with lots of ppl contributing their tactics. This is really a nice n useful thread!!!

[Sinner]

I've played a FFA last night with 3 other players. Wiped out two of them and got owned by the third in a big battle over the whole map... My best game sofar btw.

I've learned two things:
1) If you annihilate somebody in FFA build another base at his location if you can affort. Even if you don't need it (what SM player doesn't need more Generators?) do it for the sake of not letting your oponent build his (would have won if not for his second base).
2) Dreadnots rule. Period.

[Perp]

Nice Scout article Jesukrixto- I am trying some of those harrassment techniques now :)

And Sinner, I totally agree! In that 2 hour 2v2v2 game I was talking about in the Rush the Rushing Rushers thread, I had built 4 HQs with something like 20 plasma generators. Something strange though, I think we top'd out in green coming in at like 216. I wonder if that is a bug...

[MooFreaky]

I've also learned the value of scouts as i've started playing against higher level people. But i've also learned that you can have too many scouts. A top notch player will often decimate you if you have too many scouts too early.
IMO, scouts are one of a few "uber" units when 2 newer people play. But as the skill of both players increase scouts really do become the support unit they were meant to be. They have just too few HP and too low morale to be a speakhead unit (along with lack of damage w/o rifles).
My build order is scout, scout, servitor, scout, infiltrate.
Cue baracks
1st scout to cap points.
2nd scout to enemy base.
double build barracks
3rd scout to cap points
cue SM squad or FC (depending on enemy/map)
and so on

The advantage of this 2nd scout squad going to my enemy base, is to find out who they are and try and disrupt them as jesukrixto talked about early. This is especially huge when fighting chaos (who can really own SM early in 1v1. Especially if they sell that HQ - your scouts get those heretics and it GG)
Now you don't want to reach that 9/10 mark. So this is also flexible. If your scouts are doing a good job harassing you can get a fourth squad and 2MS.
Or, you can basically sacrifice them to harass your enemy, and get back to 2scouts & 3MS.

I'd also like to address a point i've been stressing in a few threads now, and i think this is the best place to do it. When fighting against CSM or SM, IMO, giving scouts sniper rifles is extremely silly. Give them flamers!
I generally use 2scouts, 3SM + FC. So i have 1 marine squad dedicated to CC (they are hotkeyed with my FC so I always have them nearby and can attatch FC to them if he needs it), while others hang back and shoot. I mix in HBs to counter scouts or cultists. I make cultists and Scouts top priority! Get them out of the way early!
Charge your flamer scouts behind your CC marines and burn the morale of those enemy marines to shreds! (snipers don't break morale as well as flamers against the 2 marine races!)
This require quite alot of micro to keep them alive, but espcially vs Chaos its huge!
I'v had this situation occur a few times:
My HBs mow his Cultists (even without HBs they still mince those cultists!) as they charged to get into CC and tie up my MS. 2 squads down in seconds. Then everything targeted his CL. I had all my squads firing, as none were tied in CC. My CC MS were haging just back from FC and still shooting. At an opportune moment (ie CL stunned or sent flying) attach FC to my MS and continue CC. CL dies. My flamers are in the battle (either flaming CL and his squad if attatched. OR i get them flaming those CSM firing at my FC.
The flamers break those squads in moments. Now half his standing army is virtually useless! Wipe that squad out to the last man. By now he usually starts retreating.

My most recent engagement where this occured was in a 2v2 with SM(me)&Eldar vs SM&Orks.
I won the first engagement but before could wipe him out orks rocked up and i was forced back with heavy casualties. My ally moved into ork base and wiped all but 1 building out before the ork got his armies back to base to drive him away.
Meanwhile the SM counter attacked me before too long, and outnumbered my marginally (we both had 2 MS and 2 scout squads - he just had more men in MS). He had sniper rifled scout squads and i had flamer scout squads.
It turned into a slaughter. I broke his MS quicker and took the prime opportunity to mince his snipers with 1 of my MS. My flamers broke his other squad as both sides engaged in CC. He lost all his men while both my MS built up to full strength. Scouts took a few casualties but both squads were intact at the end.

Hope others find this useful at least.
And Perp. Great work! This has increased my learning curve hugely!

[jesukrixto]

My problem with flamers is that they require so much more attention to prevent them from getting killed...snipers just sit back, n if u see any1 jump on them, then u move them. But flamers u have to keep them running n trying to get ur marines in the way so that they don't attract enemy fire. Still yah, if u can micro it, it's more efficient at breaking moral than snipers. I don't think I'm that good with micro so far though:)...n hell, yeah moofreaky, it IS useful to know that flamer scouts r better against marines:)

[Perp]

Call me crazy, but I have been putting my scouts on attack and close combat stance, and letting them be the meat shield as my marine units stay a short distance away, firing into the melee. What this does is keeps my marines firing, and keeps the enemy from firing back...

Not your conventional use of scouts :D

[LordLegendZ]

u could have just used servitors =) but the best meatshield is a dreadnought

[Hellman109]

scouts as meatshields in an early rush / defense is pretty normal now... Ive used it many times, so have a few enemies.

Using scouts with flamers is one of the best late tier 1 / early tier 2 tactics Vs SM and CSM, they have to target your scouts, but you will still break about 2 squds, maybe more depending, before there killed... all that time your SM squads are alive and well.. .works brilliantly.

scouts w/ flamers backed by SM squads with HB's kill CSM and SM early.

[MooFreaky]

If that first engagement is before the armoury is up I agree with you Perp. Send your scouts into CC and tie up the enemy. I do that too.
Scouts will do very little damage, may break and be even less useful in CC. But they do hang around for a while before they will go down. Even if it's just for a few seconds thats a few seconds more that you have firing on your enemy leader than they do on yours. That can turn an entire battle.

But, IMO it has to be done carefully tho. If you charge your scouts infront of your men, before the shooting has started, they will become prime targets to be shot even before your FC. I always shoot the meatshields first (as they drop quick vs a hail of bolter fire), that way i can shoot their leader undisturbed. So I wait until the enemy are shooting your FC then charge into CC, so they have to reaquire manually. Much more likely that your scouts will make it in, and cause the disruption your after.

Vs Eldar it depends on what they are using. I avoid banshees, and CC the guardians or reapers or any other unit that is giving fire support (except WS - they do little damage to MS and would mince my scouts)

Orks will charge head-on and won't stand back. This is where i haev a few questions.
Would it be better to charge your scouts infornt of everything, so they were in CC just on the edge of your MS range. This will mean your scouts will often be mobbed by all the orks and die very quickly. But it allows you that few seconds.
Or should you wait until the dancing begins and CC a single squad and take them out of the battle for a longer period of time? You may take out 2 squads for a reasonable period. Allowing 1 (maybe 2 if your lucky) squads a longer period of firing. Suggestions?

[Aendracon]

Perp, you mentioned earlier that you use terminators in late game, backed up by plasma squads and cloaked scouts. Considering cap cost, this does mean 3 term-squads, about 4 scouts/servitors and two plasma squads, right?

Now I´ve read elsewhere, that a squad of terminators has about the same health rating as two squads of marines, right? So my question is, why should I use terminators, that are way slower and also more vulnerable to snipers?

Btw: what do u guys consider a good balance of dreads and preds?
As a sidenote - IMHO, this is the best thread in the whole forum, I still learn something almost everytime I come back here - keep it up!

[Brother Luther]

I read somewhere that Terminators are harder to knockdown and also have a certain invincibility when it comes to certain weapons (don't know which ones though). Also read (in the BL thread) that Assault Terminators stun the BL, but don't know if it works on other units. Teleporting can be useful, but I suppose you can do that with your SM squads too (how much can the relay and CB hold in SM squads?).

[MooFreaky]

Termies have less HP. But they have awesome armour. Everything does less dmg against them. And the firepower they carry is pretty intense.
IMO, avoid walking them anywhere except to back to base.
Get them reenforced and then drop them when you need them.

[Firaya]

Ok, after finally getting a decent line to play online DoW, I must say I got my ass handed to me nicely lol. Playing with a limited number of friends and AI could not prepare me for the devious tricks some players out there can pull.

Some thoughts after getting whooped:
1. Assault marines are a pain. With their jumping ability, a full 8-man squad can take down a LP, decap it and jet away to safety before you can reliably stop them. Harass your enemy before you are harassed!

2. Randomly assign defense to your LPs. Having some marines to annoy those decapping units is great, if they are not in a static position it makes it even better. Your opponent will never guess where you will defend next.

3. Each map can play like an almost individual game. Even the distance between the points makes a huge difference.

One thing I am thinking of though, is whether to put Infiltrate as an early move. Having an invisible decapper running around on a bigger map is very fun to annoy the enemy with :bandit:

[StormriderX]

I prefer more dreds to preds to be honest

[jesukrixto]

The prob with so many termies is they get attacked by so many squads that there morale drops too fast. I like having an assault squad with the fc, it just feels like the coolest squad in the army, but I don't usually use any other termies (or maybe another assault squad with the librarian, for more fun:))...marine squads recover morale much faster with rally, and when one of your squads is low on numbers it's always easier to get it out of combat and reinforce it than with terminators. Anyway, if termies got sargeants it'd be a different story. I don't se the reason why they don't get sarges. I bet there are terminator veterans just as there are marine veterans. Damn.

Besides, terminators can't dance. If an enemy wants to get into CC with them, he will. That's why I like the assault guys.

In any case, when the game gets that far it's not just having the best force, there's also the coolness factor, and terminators are the coolest of them all:) (that's also the reason why I use land raiders with deepstriking dreads, and screw the preds, they're so small compared to a LR...they've less firepower one to one too, they're weaker, they can't glow(speak of cool), they're less accurate, they don't have anti-infantry guns once upgraded...)

[Aendracon]

Hmmm...

so apart from being cool, terminators are rather as inferior to tactical squads as landraiders are to predators, right? I would assume that assault terminators are another question, as they are not prone to getting ripped apart in cc, but are they really worth building?

Any of the PROs willing to comment?

[Hellman109]

^^ for anti-inf, I upgrade main weaps and leave sides as is... but generally they kill vehicles other units kill soldiers.

Termies are brilliant when used well, nothing NOTHING can match them in CC, at all, although Ive never seen them hit a full nob squad.

assault termies DS'd into a base can destroy allot, and fast, attach the FC and you have a relativly small cost attack with HUGE damage potential.

[Stazbumpa]

I normally use Assault Term's only with a FC in one squad and the Librarian in the other. 2 kick ass units that will muller any of the enemy's super units no problem. You have to use them carefully though, because against plasma or Dark Reapers they WILL fall, so appropriate back is needed for them at all times.
Beware of Possessed Marines though, they will give your AT's a serious disembowelment problem.

[Perp]

The reason I like Termies late game is they take out all forms of infantry sooo fast!!! If your opponent is vehicle heavy, then predators are a better bet. If your opponent is infantry heavy, or has a good mix, mix it up! I think you guys will find that termies simply eliminate enemy infantry!

The key is to have them already full up before you commit them to battle... A full squad with an Apothocary is a definite field clearer. With the preds backing them up- well- you shouldn't have any problems... Against Chaos I go more plasma squads then termies... Against Marines I try to have a good mix of plasma and termies, everything else gets mostly termies. :)

[Aendracon]

The reason I like Termies late game is they take out all forms of infantry sooo fast!!! If your opponent is vehicle heavy, then predators are a better bet. If your opponent is infantry heavy, or has a good mix, mix it up! I think you guys will find that termies simply eliminate enemy infantry!

So... are we talking about personal preferences or are they really superior to plasma squads? Furthermore, the question was whether to go terminators or plasma squads. A sound predator backup to counter vehicles is out of question anyway, right?


The key is to have them already full up before you commit them to battle... A full squad with an Apothocary is a definite field clearer. With the preds backing them up- well- you shouldn't have any problems... Against Chaos I go more plasma squads then termies... Against Marines I try to have a good mix of plasma and termies, everything else gets mostly termies.

Erm - noted, but which kind of terminators (Assault or Tactical)? And while being at it, how many squads anyway?

Oh, did I already mention how much I appreciate this thread? Really good work PERP !!!

[The Fell-Hand]

StazBumpa, I'm not speaking from experience, but that stats thread over in Ruinous plotting has an AT squad taking out two full psm squads in succession, with NO losses...maybe other factors in the battle skewed things against the terms?

[Perp]

...are they really superior to plasma squads?
That is probably better handled in Vertigo's thread:
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=48290

I find that Vertigo's nabbing of stats has been really useful. The right mix really depends on the opponent's army at that time- I typically use Tactical Termies 2 or 3 squads, 1 of those being Assault Termies if the enemy is going heavy CC... If you keep your Tac Termies far enough apart it doesn't matter about CC anyway, unless they are matching you squad for squad, then you will probably want to rethink your strat anyway... Too many variables- does not compute!!!

[Aendracon]

That is probably better handled in Vertigo's thread


I think it was this thread that made me rethink building terminators in the first place.


Too many variables- does not compute!!!

My point exactly. Vertigo is without doubt the leading expert in stats, but I sometimes fail to get the point, so I wanted a first hand oppinion from someone knowledgable - and I think I got it. Thanks Perp!

[Sinner]

I've played a 3v3 game today with a good player at my side. Sadly the third got owned pretty quick and while I was busy with fighting some insane wave of marines they dropped something like 6 Dreadnots, a few AS squads and some Horrors... We lost. After the game he was angry at as for poor cooperation.

Lesson learned - don't expect your allies will know what to do, talk to them and make a plan. I had quite an army and we could have won that, but we failed to communicte and lost :(

EDIT: btw: why was this thread unsticked?

[DeathGuard]

ya noone talks in the game, try to get a plan i see my allies running into enemy base not even telling me i try to run after him to back him up but then the other enemy attacks him from behind so then i have to attack him then after my allie dies he like thanks for the back up. :smash:

[Sinner]

I had built 4 HQs with something like 20 plasma generators. Something strange though, I think we top'd out in green coming in at like 216. I wonder if that is a bug...

I checked that recently and everything was OK, but that might be because it was during campaign... Though this shouldn't really have any meaning...

[Aendracon]

Act, don´t react!

I have recently been played for the fool that I am. In a 1 vs. 1 (Blood River) against an eldar player, I won the first couple of encounters by equipping tactical squads with flamers and breaking his banshee and guardian squads. However, as time went by, I concentrated on massings quads instead of teching. Worse, I chased his squads around the entire map to prevent them from decapping my sp. Bloody foolish decision. For one thing - you cannot catch eldar if they do not want to be caught. Second, while I massed up squads, he teched for fire prism - and that was the end of it because I hadn´t teched up to rockets or dreads. Thus, while I might have simply overran his base, I wasted time to chase "fleet of food"-squads. :Slap:

Lesson learned the hard way! In the next game (same map), a marine player fought me at the center critical location. It was a standard 3 tactical squads + fc per side encounter. While he decimated one of my tactical squads (and finished it off) I concentrated fire on his fc an killed him. Afterwards, it was a field day picking his tactical squads with my own fc support. Point is, while he started decapping my sp with his 2 scout squads, I assaulted his main base, still with my original force of fc and the surviving two tactical squads. So while he had an eco advantage, he could not build tactical squads as fast as I killed them -> I won. :smash:

Had I yielded to the urge to track down his annoying scouts, he would have rebuild his troops in no time and I would have been done for - again.

Now I don´t expect people to act as foolish as I did, but heed my advice: Being a step ahead is a step closer to victory! :beer:

[bertbrownbear]

Thanks guys for a fantastic thread,

Have learnt so much more about Space Marines in these pages than playing them for weeks!! I had started towards chaos but you haved saved me from the cursed ones :D

I tried some of your tactics last night on a 1v1 vs computer on hard (I know bit rubbish) and I totally kicked arse (previously not so good) tried on the next level up and held out for way longer than I would have normally.

Things that helped :

1. Attaching my FC to a group of SM when he was close to death save him loads of times
2. Micro - I used to just grab all my units in a heap and point them in the direction of the enemy!!
3. Those little speeder type vehicles (never built one before!) kick arse!!!

Big thanks :beer:

BBB

[->Blitzkrieg<-]

Perp,

This is a fabulous thread and I have learned a lot that has served me well in the single player missions so far.

Could,

You perchance touch on keyboad commands and hotkeys? The manual is painfully thin on details and I feel like I am missing a lot by not fully understanding the benefits of certains stances and overwatch and what not.

Thanks much,

Blitz

[Tasilla]

Hey folks, wanted to throw something in, concerning outnumbered games:
Don't just drop out, when your team loses a player right from the start, there is still a chance you can make this game a win-entry in your stats ... and besides: we are marines, if the emperor wants us to face more enemies, then it is his will and he deems us good enough to do the job ;)

Had a 1v2 a few days ago and a 2v3 this evening.
Most important thing to do, when outnumbered: GET THOSE SPs your teammate would have occupied. It's hard enough to deal with the higher production capacities (more buildings) and higher caps. You don't want them to additinaly have more ressources.

The 1v2 I went against a chaos and an ork on Quatra. I went with my standard 3 scout-build (works just fine when not playing 1on1) and managed to get those second set of SPs before the enemy arrived for the engagement in the centre. My marines were awaiting them with flamers ready and some snipers in the back from those scouts that finished caping points. With almost no losses I drove their forces away and immediately ordered an all-out assault, devastating both forward positions of the enemy. By that time the ork threw some wartraks at my men who had just spotted his mek-shop.
After destroying the first trak, i realized he was getting them out nearly as fast as i could kill them and with the chaos somewhere back in his base, reinforcing, I decided to take this building down and afterwards deal with those annoying vehicles. As reinforcements were constantly coming from my barracks and I had manged to get this HQ-upgrade, I sent in some missile launchers and finished the mek-shop and the traks.
At this time the chaos marines were back on the field, but they weren't a real thread as there were still a lot of those flamers left from first engagement. Combined with some plasma guns the CSMs were toast.
I then used my forward momentum to storm his base, but was finally forced to retreat when meeting 3 predators (my first dread just left production and was moving to the front, but second HQ upgrade was still far away ...)
Well, I got lucky and finished off those preds at last, which obviously discoraged my chaos enemy so he left. Cleaning up the ork was like target practice for the marines.

The 2v3 was 2 marines (my brother and me) against two marines and a chaos on Kasyr Lutien. We quickly assaulted one of their bases just after getting some flamers up on all marines and scouts.
At this point i may add a side note about heavy weapon usage:
Your weapons choice is not only dependant on the race you are going to figth, but also requires a look on the task at hand: If you are going for an early game quick assault, you don't want heavy bolters (or missile launchers if you are a little further in game), as you would have to halt your forward movement to get those weapons ready to fire. Flamers (or plasmas) are really excellent for assaults against enemy infantry (if they get vehicles ... well, run!) as you can get all your squads in range at the same click or even bypass the enemy firing with all guns, while your teammate moves up with some support behind you.
Well, unfortunately, one of the SM got a bunch of landspeeders up to the flamer-party and all of a sudden the tide turned and we were forced back.
Fighting our way over the map, we consolidated our positions until their inevitable attack rained down on our right flank. We were forced back over the bridge but the enmy had considerable difficulties establishing a spearhead on our side. We chose this moment for our counter-attack. While my troops held this bridge against the 2 pushing enemies, my brother took his men and smashed his way through the enemy defenses and began slaughtering one of their bases. As this base was rather finished, the enemy withdrew from the bridge to stop my brothers' forces from flanking into their other bases. The moment i gunned down the last remenants, I pushed all my men upwards and while my brothers advance was halted on the enemies left flank, my reinforced and fully equipped troops crushed the right flank and another of their bases. All three enemies concentrated in the center with almost no res-production left and only very small bases were no mathch for our ever pressing forces and so victory was only a matter of minutes.

The key to our victory: denying the enemy his advance at some choke-point with an outnumbered force while the rest moved in from behind.
We had several of these situations in the game and it came down to this: in Kasyr Lutien, if the enemy is not flanking, those forces will win a massive fight, who are holding 3 of the 4 streets that lead to the point of engagement.

It might not apply if your opponents have same or higher skill-levels, but it's worth a try. A lot more thrilling than just dropping if outnumbered, to be sure ;)

[MasterT]

Wow you sould write a book :p
Sounds like they were really fun battles,And you must be a good player to have one in such a way. o_0

[Tasilla]

Fun indeed and pumping masses of adrenaline through your body, but I am not that good a player ... talk about how bad the others were ;)

[Lune]

First off, Good thread, quickly uncovers many mysteries of the game.
I enjoyed reading the numbers by Vertigo as well.

Secondly, is it just the times that I go online, or are the majority of public games large scale 3v3's where each player: turtles at their base, races to mass their best units, and then the team with the worst ally, or the early disconnect, loses the big fight.

I mean these 3v3's are fine, for a change (or if it is 6 friends), but I'd really like to bite into some normal games, where the techniques that you have mastered (or failed to master) are the keys to victory.

Unfortunately, it seems that most 2v2 public games are those in which 2 clan buddies (who might have played countless games together), pair up against 2 random saps that get swiftly schooled, primarily due to their individual strategies, and inferior communication.

I think that I've given up on the non-1v1 use of public games ... can anyone give me decent info on clans?

Lune

[Thog]

clans forum (http://clanforums.relicnews.com/index.php)

u know you just resurected a thread that died 4 months ago? :-)

[Dragoncurry]

Why isnt this stickied?

[[Vertigo]]

OYE! let sleeping dogs lie!

[TheReaper]

nice thread. 20,000 views is a damn good effort i reakon

[timotheus]

ok am a veteran in team games but am a newbie in 1v1 games (albeit with decent micro).

if you are an SM, or really any matchup, if you see your hero get close to bad health, attach him to a squad. in 1v1 SM, it is a game winner.

as eldar, banshees are great to put pressure on until he gets 4 scouts squads with sniper rilfes....ouch

in team games, alweays support your closest ally with whatever you have. if you see a 3v1 situation or any situatio when 1 is getting overpowered by multiple enemies, rush to his/her aid. and use enter key to talk to allies, it helps. pings help too to quickly show u where help is needed.

[BrotherGaius]

This is a good thread. I'm learning a lot just reading these forums.

[Andaius]

Is perp even active in this forum or play DoW anymore? I haven't seen him around since the 1.10 patch can out.

[DivineOne]

yeah, where is he?


Last Activity: 21-12-2004 02:04 PM
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[shane1826]

does anyone think it is worth upgrading the LP's to the second level or is it just a waste of good req

[Chris]

Do you mean from a normal LP to a turret, or from the turret to the more powerful turret?

Upgrading from the normal LP to the turret is always worth it, but it's up to you to make the right decision of WHEN to upgrade it. Upgrading from the first turret to the second turret is never worth it in 1vs1 games, but sometimes it's worth it in big team games.

[shane1826]

yeah, i meant first turret to second turret, thanks for the advise :)

[Perp]

does anyone think it is worth upgrading the LP's to the second level or is it just a waste of good req

Good question! In multiplayer I always upgrade LPs as much as feasible, the longer the game goes the bigger the difference this will make. The important thing to remember is if you concentrate on upgrading your LPs first you are shorting your army, if you concentrate on your army first, your handicapping your resource gathering later... A balance based on your opponents aggressiveness is key. If your opponent is pushing then your going to want to defend yourself through your army. If your opponent is teching then you want to get those LPs up and upgraded. In the short game it will be your army that wins, in the long run it will be how well you can keep your army replenished (i.e. how well you can spend your resources).

I find that Multiplayer games tend to last longer so I always fully upgrade all of my LPs. In 1v1 games the games tend to be MUCH shorter, and it will be army management along with those first and second level LPs and not those third level LPs that win the resource management dance.

And yes, I have been lost in WoW... Got burned out (WoW mass PvP lag finally through me over the top). With WA coming and the new patch released, DoW once again shows its place as the top RTS for me! :D

[Titris Thrawns]

I dunno if the question was answered earlier.. but YES there is a req and power income CAP... in a 1v1 game in a tourny ... My opponent turtled... and being less skilled than I am now.. I could not crack it... (he literally built turrents EVERYWHERE) Biffy's peril = bad turlin I tell ya what... But... Since it was a tourny game and we both didn't want to quit...

I decided to build all the gens I could... and the power income did not break 350 I beleive (was a bit ago) but I Know it maxes out for req and power at a point (I think req maxes out at a higher number). Anyhow, If you have a game like that occur... then... well... unless it is an important game I would reccomend quiting and saving yourself time... (this is also why I never play Big FFA maps... People tech/turrent... it's Ridiculus... Especially eldar ^_^. Had a 2.5 hr game FFA game that I won... Never will I do so again.)

As for the biggest LP upgrade? you know whats sad? I've had multiple games where I GET to upgrade those... at that point in a 1 v 1 game I usually know I've won because the opposition is not being pushy... which = uber tech/econ for me... which = I win. Morale? Don't let me get LP3s cause that's just plain wrong.

Welcome Back Perp!

[Perp]

Hmmm... Coming in after a 6 month stint in World of Warcraft has shown me my skills are dated... Was looking for any help in the forums for where my build order has gone wrong and I guess I am still looking. Now that scouts have been nerfed a bit I'm hesitant to try a different scout economy order, but try it I will:

4 scout, 2 Space Marine and FC

Scout, scout, scout, serv, scout
Scouts cap points(or harass if that's your thing)
1st Servitor build barracks
2nd servitor comes out as barracks is done, both serv's then LP the nearest
point, and continue
FC
MS
MS
Power gen
Armoury
Either fill out squad numbers or go HQ upgrade for tier 2, depending on situation and enemy.

I'm thinking the key is to micro the build order (don't cue the MS until your FC is ready...) and run, run, run. One other thing I am going to try to start doing is always keeping my FC attached to one of the scout squads... I can't believe I never thought of this before, but it was brought up in the SM tactics, and it sounds like a great way to keep your FC alive. :D

If any top SM players have a good build order with a different approach please share!!! I've been out of it too long and my old build orders aren't working at all. :(

[HFX]

Technically building another HQ is more cost efficent then upgrading lp's to the second turret. Plus you can build 6 more gens :-)

[Titris Thrawns]

ahh but building a second HQ reuies builders!... then again if your that far into the game they are probably waiting for something to do... those servitors can only sip so much tea with those Dr. Oct Tentacles before they get bored i'm sure...

So far that Build order seems to be the best Perp... Unless of course you find out your facing eldar thus I usually get gen earlier and hold off on the MS and switch to ASM. *shrugs* again the usual "if situation A do Action B". The nice thing now is... Tier 3 is much more probable (in 1 v 1) and faster to get there... thus you can yoink out OBs DSss lazes and The next econ upgrades faster... It's odd since over half my automatches (which ahve been a grand total of like 6...) I have gotten to tier 3... and there are still whiners on WoTe... Ahh the toils of the servants of the Emperor...

[Unicron]

Regarding hotkeys,

A tactical hotkey setup I use when playing Orks:

1-5: Close combat units - (Sluggas, Nobs, Mek & Warboss) used to quickly tie up ranged squads into close combat.
5-7: Ranged units - (Big/-Shoota squads) for quick access to second line ranged squads
8: Rocket squads - (Tank Bustaz) for fast targeting critical/dangerous units/buildings (Defilers, Dreds etc)
9: Vehicles - (Wartraks and Kans)

[Perp]

I used that build order last night, won 4 of 4 against moderately ranked players, and I must say I do see an improvement!

Cue Scout, Scout, Scout, Servitor
Build Barracks
Waypoint HQ to nearest LP "A", let the first scout auto take the point,
Waypoint HQ to next closest "B", let the second scout auto take the point,
Waypoint HQ to an enemy side waypoint "C", let the third scout go there,
Waypoint the HQ to back to "B", let the servitor go there.

Cue FC

Set Barracks to Hotkey 1 and waypoint "C"

Build LP on A and B

Cue MS only after A and B are started; set the Scouts at "C" on CC stance and attach the FC to that squad.

Start LP on "C"

Your initiating and sending all troops to "C", which puts you in control of the engagement and puts the enemy on the defensive (it is his point that you are nabbing). You can lose this point if you have to, so retreat if it looks like you can't keep it, you want to keep as many squads as you can. You should still be ahead in the resource race because the point of contention is his LP, not yours.

If he comes on your side from another direction, PUSH. Go deeper, faster, and let him do the distance travel to intercept. If you are running around responding to his moves your on the defensive. If he is reacting to you, then you are controlling the engagement.

Keep your Force Commander ALIVE. If you have to jump him from squad to squad as they die off, keep attaching him. Whoever keeps their FC alive will most likely come out on top...

Its good to be back!!!

BTW- the magic 8 ball doesn't look good for SMs right now, with only 1 in the top 10 (TLSC Fear) and like 8 in the top 50, we are going to have our hands full trying to counter Eldar and Chaos. Flamers kill CSM, Plasma against everything else Chaos, and get those Dreads up to counter the defilers. We need to figure out how to kill Defilers effectively... Eldar, well, I'm still clueless vs a decent Eldar player...

[Markoso]

If you're a bit strapped for ideas Perp, I suggest heading over by DOWS, and checking out what IronClad has come up with. While I most definately don't suggest copying his BO as a static BO for your own use, I do suggest watching it, and incorporating any aspects of it that you find appealing into your own strategy.

[Perp]

Well, after playing all weekend, and being completely frustrated with 1v1 vs Chaos and Eldar, I have completely reconsidered my views.

One thing, I have realized that I enjoy this game in multiplayer way more than single player! Those massive games that get to the end units with termies, landraiders, and orbital bombardments really rock!!! So more of a multiplayer person am I...

Second, sometimes you just have to realize that your race isn't as strong as some of the others, and its time to start learning how to play those other races...

Third, if you continue to play space marines, you may have to play very defensively in the opening game, as those rushes can be brutal, and its time to run, run, run!!!

I'm going to try to talk to TLSC Fear, and get him to post his build order, and see what I am doing wrong... Long live the Emporer!!!!

[Perp]

The Force Commander is a ladies man, he should come attached!

I've said it before and I will say it again, whoever comes out on top with their Force Commander still alive should win the match.

Now all weekend I have seen something consistent- Chaos commanders are being attached to large CSM squads. When I attach my FC to a scout squad, they just don't stand a chance against a FC attached to a CSM squad- they just simply have more numbers. And scouts aren't as heavily armored as a CSM squad... So what to do? Attach that FC to a SM squad, and keep that squad full (overwatch).

Don't forget to put that squad on CC instead of ranged combat!

Don't let that FC go out there unattached!!! I have even adjusted my build order to get the MS out first and then the FC, so that there is always something to attach him to. This also allows me to reinforce that squad (I only do one reinforcement to begin with, bringing that squad up to 5 instead of leaving it on overwatch).

[Titris Thrawns]

I'll Have to try that Out Perp (^_^)=b

Another lesson for ye all: If the enemy attacks before you have your forces "fully" ready... I reccomend taking the troops off to the side and not fight... Why? Cause if the enemy has a suprior force... your unready units shall simply perish...

Had this happen yesturday.. Had two fresh Ms sqauds and a FC when the other SM player started attacking with his 3 scout squads, FC, and beginning to full out MS squads... I knew I was out gunned so instead of defending my base... I ran... (a third MS sqaud came out later and had to hoof it to join the otehrs but eh).

The game sadly ended in my lose... but very close... Instad of defending I sent my forces to destroy his base... Yeah I attacked slightly later but my extra MS squad filling out helped destroy his side faster... Sadly it literally boiled down to us switching sides... I got one of his builders... but he got a gen up on my side before I could get a gen up on his... very sad, yet so very close ^_^.

[Tanman]

Thanks Perp for this thread, I have learnt a lot. I have a question for you guys, what is your counter for a few defilers? I have had a game with the AI with these babies pitted against me. Is Dreadnoughts or Hellfires the best way to handle them? Can infantry with rockets do it?

[Perp]

Watch those pre-game settings!

Last night, was doing multiplayer, and got in what was I thought a 3v3 on Kysar Lutin(?). The game creater changed it to auto 3 teams (or 2v2v2) at the last second before we all clicked in, and I didn't catch it!!! Needless to say my partner and I were split across the map, and didn't have a chance...

My partner.......Team 1.........Team 1

...0....................0...................0

Me..................Team 3.........Team 3

Not fun!!!

Find the choke point!

There is nothing more satisfying then a good killing field! Older battles used to have lines and lines of infantry set in nice little box formations that would march around on a field. Commanders would worry about flanks, encirclement, and manuevering his troops into what was the optimum killzone, with lines of fire, crossfire, and having the flanks protected. In this game, we still have infantry in box formation, and we can still use killing fields and crossfire- if you know where the enemy is coming!

There are natural paths on most maps, we can call them choke points, in which we can set up nice formations. Say for example:

Landform

....Sct...MS
........MS..AS
........MS..AS <----Enemy
........MS..AS
....Sct...MS

Landform

The enemy should get absolutely crucified if they try to break a bottleneck like the one above. Now, if we are the enemy we will probably jump our ASMs over the lines to the rear and attack those MS squads... OR we can fire arty into the ranks and watch those formations crumble... OR send in Dreads... But I think you will find that most opponents just send their troops over in a jumbled mass and pray for the best- which usually turns out ugly for them. :rage:

But the point is, like for example Dangerous Crossings, you can set up your army in a way to take maximum advantage of the choke point and just slaughter any incoming enemy... If they have to come through you to stop the take and hold timer, you can really make them pay!!!

This also brings up another point...

Don't be predictable, don't let them know where you are...

If they know where your going to be, and with what forces you have arrayed against them, then they are going to counter you. Best to stay on the offensive and keep them off balance.

So in the situation above, where you have slaughtered their first attempt to come get the middle objective through your killzone, it is time to move on. If you just sit there they will find the counter for what you have done, and exploit it! Best to keep pushing and taking points, or keep gunning for his base.

I have put myself in situations where I went for his base to early, and found myself overextended. This can be dangerous, as he destroys your advance it leaves you open to his counterattack. I tend to be a more cautious player, and go for his points first. If I continue taking his points there is no way he can keep up with me resource-wise, and I will have a much bigger army when I go into his defended base then he can possibly hope to defeat...


what is your counter for a few defilers?
Good question, I personally match dreads up to defilers, one for one. Missile troops aren't much good because the defilers arty will keep them off balance and prevent them from setting up to fire. Late game the predators are a much better counter- fully upgraded las cannon preds are the SM counter to enemy vehicles.

Early game you better go dreads. And don't let your dreads get tangled up with infantry if they are there to get those defilers...

[tottyspotter]

Nice formation. I always underuse the ASM's, really have to start churning them out to handle the cc stuff.

[Perp]

Nice formation.
Thanks :)

I am a huge fan of Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow and can't help cringing everytime I start thinking formations. This game is so fast and fluid it is rare to have the time or opportunity to set up a formation anyway... But when you do have the chance it can be worth it! Ender of course would be rolling in his grave- but he could delegate tasks to his squad leaders, and here we cannot. I'm not a huge fan of micromanaging (else I would be playing Eldar), so I stick with my trusty, hearty marines! LONG LIVE THE EMPORER!

[Katastrophikus]

What would be really lovely, of course, would be different formations. In the army, we had different formations for different results, but mostly to make sure that we didn't get shot by our own side. With that said, it could be married quite effectively, I think, with the stance system.

Imagine a formation in which the non-launcher marines specifically guard the launcher-marines, while they shell on. Then, as you receive enemy artillery, you change formation for maximum protection - they scatter and find shelter, minimizing their move and damage in the process.

I'm getting all hot-and-bothered just thinking about it.

[Tanman]

Early game you better go dreads. And don't let your dreads get tangled up with infantry if they are there to get those defilers...


thanks for the tip. Your posts on a few posts back about staggering sm against csm infantry worked a treat. Usually I would get knocked back with them. But now I can manage it pretty well. Also this was the place that I found the comand queue instructions. I have the manual, but never knew how to get going properly.

Here is a generic thing that made me quite effective in my games ( as usually I play with one hand), I shortcut the buildings (Ctrl +#)instead of the units. If do that and then I get the shortcut to the building aI can still see the battle field while I am queueing more units into battle. It has changed the way that I play. IE I have Ctrl+1 fior the big base, Ctrl+2 for the Chapel, Ctrl+3 for Armoury. etc etc.

I do it according to my BO. But it really helps. Dunno what other people do. But HTH.

[Perp]

Pre-drop those Termie squads!

Sooo, sooo much better to pre-drop those termie squads next to your barracks, let them get to full squad size with weaps and an apothocary, then load them back in the barracks for an insta-drop anywhere on the map.

Half baked squads get cut to pieces in a fight, full squads decimate the enemy!

And don't forget to get some hammer termies in there, too! They should replace those ASM squads you had earlier in the match. They like to have an apothocary buddy, just like the shooty termies... Don't worry about losing the jump ability- termies teleport around (kinda like warp spiders) when they have the proper training from the Orbital.

[Phate]

the delay (when they kneel for a bit before the teleport) on termy teleporting hurrendous, it just doesnt have the same versatility as jumps.

[Dragoncurry]

Agreed. Terminator teleport is suicide unless they are far away from combat. They have a nice range so they can teleport INTO the enemy but it cannot be used as an escape mechanism.

[Perp]

the delay (when they kneel for a bit before the teleport) on termy teleporting hurrendous, it just doesnt have the same versatility as jumps.

That maybe true, I have never actually tried to retreat with Termies... :) I just keep dropping more in...
And I must say its a beautiful sight, dropping 2 squads of termies, 8 each +1 apothocary, totally wipes out every other infantry I have put them up against... Of course I drop them where they will do the most good, just out of range of CC, just in range of immediately decimating enemy infantry...
I also put my hammer termies up against missile turrets- wonderful!!! Quick work of them!!!
Other people may say that full squads of marines with plasmas are better than termies, I just like the speed in which a full termie squad takes out all other types of infantry...

[hiteche5]

Sorry to go a little off topic for a sec but...


Imagine a formation in which the non-launcher marines specifically guard the launcher-marines, while they shell on. Then, as you receive enemy artillery, you change formation for maximum protection - they scatter and find shelter, minimizing their move and damage in the process.

I'm getting all hot-and-bothered just thinking about it.

You need to check Relic's new RTS...Company of Heros. Squads are supposed to be more intelligent just like you described.

Back on topic:

Perp:try getting some assault cannons on those termies and drop in outside of their range. If you use assualt termies then drop them right on top. People say plasma marines are better but that''s because they drop the termie squad all by themselves. They need support!

[Khornight]

I've heard somewhere that even when termies are showing teleport animations they are still fighting, is this true?

[tottyspotter]

Yes, i heard that. Someone said that if you look at the energy of the units near them it is still going down while they are teleporting.

[Perp]

Make sure your buddies have good connections

I have found in multiplayer, especially with the new voting kick system, you will want to make sure that all of your teammates have a great connection. If they lag for any length of time you run the risk of having them voted out of the game, putting you at a huge disadvantage. I always try to play with people I trust...

Predators come in a wide variety of flavors

I have just come to realize the beauty of predators. In the past, I have always fully upgraded them for my main anti-vehicle platform. With Possessed Chaos Space Marines ripping through bases the way the do, I have found that the vanilla or just fresh out of the box predator does very nicely. The Possessed don't chop through them like butter, and if you can keep those side bolters going, you can definitely do some damage against them. I have started mixing some of my predators, with the main gun going laz cannon, and keeping the side guns as bolters. It really depends on what you expect to encounter as to how you should configure your guns... :D

[Ruosteinen]

A question or five for Perp on using overwatch during an engagement.

If you're in an engagement with your squads at full strength, do you turn on overwatch on each squad as soon as it loses its first member? Is it always the case that you want to reinforce immediately, or are there certain situations in which you would choose not to do so? Do certain types of squads take precedence over others (Marines > ASM > Scouts, for example)? Once you lose some heavy weapons in an engagement, is your priority generally to reinforce bolter marines before queuing replacement heavies, or are there situations when maxing out on heavies is more important than normal marine numbers? And the same with Sergeants, do you queue the replacement straight away or do you prefer a quicker marine reinforcement?

I suppose a likely answer to these is "it depends on the situation", but any rules of thumb you use would no doubt be helpful, just like the rest of this thread is.

[Perp]

If you're in an engagement with your squads at full strength, do you turn on overwatch on each squad as soon as it loses its first member? Is it always the case that you want to reinforce immediately, or are there certain situations in which you would choose not to do so? Do certain types of squads take precedence over others (Marines > ASM > Scouts, for example)?

Excellent question and one that deserves some thought.

In early engagements, with full squads, I will box in all of the units involved. I am looking for some things as I do this:

1. Which units are getting hit and are taking damage.
2. Which units are losing the blue morale bar.

If you have all of your squads up, you can quickly switch from one to the other and as that blue bar disappears hit the "Rally Squad" button (the sergent button) to replenish morale.
Also, you can hit the overwatch button on squads that lose that first man. And yes, I hit overwatch on my marine and assault marine squads IN EARLY ENGAGEMENTS.

In late engagements, when I have the ability to create termies, I do not reinforce my marine and assault marine squads. I would rather get termies into play. Don't forget to pre-drop those termie squads near your base and hit overwatch on them to get them up to full strength. Attach your apothocary to the termie squad, and load them back into the barracks when they are at full strength. I try to keep the mix at half hammer termies and half shooty termies.

If you have a break in combat which both sides are building up for a major battle, I would go ahead and kill (i.e. use the delete button/or send them kamikaze) extra scouts, builders, and regular marine/ASM squads in favor of termies. There are some exceptions to this, if you have a full missile squad and are expecting tons of vehicles, I might keep those- depends on if the vehicles will bounce them around. Also, if I'm expecting lots of chaos and have a full plasma squad, I might keep it, really depends on how late in the game it is and if I have any predators that would be better at killing PCSMs. Mostly I go with termies. One scout to sneak in the back of an enemy base is always good late game, but that really depends on the map.

You will always want to have a builder hidden on the map (preferably already building your second HQ), but once that second HQ is up I will sometimes kill that last builder (depends on if I am close to that 20/20 limit). If you delete that last builder beware and very conscious of your two HQs, if one goes down I would always build a builder then and there to get another backup HQ built.

I want to reiterate how important boxing in all of your squads during a major battle is and watching that blue morale bar. Hitting "rally squad" is almost as good as getting a whole new squad into the fray, as it gives them one more good effort before they parish, which can make a difference. Managing your whole force is sooo much easier if you keep an eye on who is getting hit and respond accordingly.

And to answer one last question, which is more important- Sergents or regular marines? If you have the resources I almost always go sergent first. Once he is built he can double the effectiveness of a squad by replenishing the morale. If I don't have the money right away, or know that for some reason my squad is not expected to live, then maybe I won't spend the money on the sergent. In those types of situations I am usually saying to myself "I need something better than a SM squad, lets get a dread".

[Ruosteinen]

When you box them, is it not impossible to give just one unit an order though (at least I hope it's like this, if not I've been severely handicapped all these weeks)? So you have to assign all the attack commands in the first instance of spotting the enemy; box; issue overwatches where appropriate; select one unit and change it's target; rebox and check casualties/morale; select one unit and move it, etc. For example. Do you select all units by dragging each time, or do you sacrifice a number hotkey to select all units, even in late game when hotkeys are at a premium?

[Perp]

When you box them, is it not impossible to give just one unit an order though (at least I hope it's like this, if not I've been severely handicapped all these weeks)? So you have to assign all the attack commands in the first instance of spotting the enemy; box; issue overwatches where appropriate; select one unit and change it's target; rebox and check casualties/morale; select one unit and move it, etc. For example. Do you select all units by dragging each time, or do you sacrifice a number hotkey to select all units, even in late game when hotkeys are at a premium?
Yes, pretty much to all of the above.

Sadly, you can not assign different targets to units within a boxed group. I personally don't use hotkeys for my units, I like micro-ing the battle while having my hotkeys set on buildings for reinforcements. There are some that do hotkey individual units and they are probably more effective in battle than I... My personal feeling on micro-ing a battle is to let your units shoot, and keep those reinforcements coming... I will go to the effort of making sure that rocks meets scissors, paper meets rock, and scissors meets paper, but that is far as it goes in battle micromanagement (make sure your units are killing what they are best at killing).

My hotkeys are usually Barracks 1, Mech Center 2, Mech Center 3, Chapel 4, Orbital 5. This way I can waypoint my reinforcements to my current battle position, and keep what I need cued up. I can also adjust my reinforcements to the proper counter as I see fit, and will sometimes uncue units in favor of a more appropriate counter. I do this all without EVER going back to my base, I stay on the battle and my troops.

I usually will waypoint MC2 to my orbital and start cueing dreads, while MC3 goes predators and waypointed to my current position. Chapel4 is waypointed right outside my barracks, and cues apothocaries to attach to my termie squads. My termies drop right outside the barracks, where I do have to go back and overwatch them and attach the apothocary, once they are at full strength I load them back into my barracks for a deep strike.

[Perp]

Top SM player _1Kn0wFear_ gave a peek!

Finally talked to _1Kn0wFear_ and he stated he usually uses a 3 scout build, but he also said something that made total since: He has different build orders for each race and map.
Knowing that you don't really have any idea what race your up against (unless you know who your opponent is and what race they typically play) I can only surmise that his build order starts off the same and then adjusts at first contact? He has a 2 scout build order but stated he rarely pulls it out- mostly sticking with a 3 or 4 scout BO.

[shane1826]

does anyone ever use the hellfire dreads, if so, what situations are they best used in?

[Titris Thrawns]

Yay! Perp is now the SM People's Champion of information of investigative intrique!

3 scout build eh? that's my usual order... and yeah the BO always changes depending on race played (albiet mostly stays same.. Get LPs up fast etc. the race determines how fast I get armory/gens and how many MS sqauds are pumped out). 2 just seems to slow for many maps while I usually do 4 dependsing on how many SPs are on the map. (more SP more scouts obviously ^_^)

Perp, If you can get any more info or even direct us to some of Iknowfear's replays that would.. well be excellent ^_^. actually I might have to Run over to Santuarary and see if I can find any replays of his. INformation IS POWER! :read: Let's hope Our number one SM player does not hide is as well.

[Phate]

does anyone ever use the hellfire dreads, if so, what situations are they best used in?

I sometimes use them in preference to speeders if im pretty certain the enemy hasnt teched too hard, and need something more durable than a speeder that builds fast. Not sure of the numbers on this though, the few times i have used them they've performed well and seemed to hold up reasonably well to medium amounts of fire (not including rockets).

[Perp]

Late game decisions on squads

In multiplayer, I have noticed something I never thought I would say: Termies are not the best solution in all situations.

I used to be a die hard termie fan. My endgame revolved around getting termie squads up to max with an apothocary and dropping them all over the board. Well, that may not be the best solution.

In some situations, if your down and the enemy is attacking your door, you need to build things fast. Numbers produced beats quality produced. I'm not sure what the actual build times are for squads vs termies, but I do know that I can produce squads MUCH faster than termies. And squads produced and pushed into battle are much better than not having anything because your waiting on that termie squad to cook.

If I have time, I still go for termies- but when time is short, go for squads. At least you will have something to fight with!

[Ruosteinen]

Thanks for your answers to my previous questions, Perp. I have another couple, if you don't mind.

When you have the enemy on the run after the initial 10/10 engagement, do you go straight for the base or take out surrounding LPs and take his points first? At the moment I'm split; against Orks and Eldar I'll often head for the base, taking any points I come across but not going out of my way for them. Against SM and Chaos, having tougher buildings (it seems, I don't know the numbers), I'll usually take as many points as possible before assaulting the base. I'm not sure if this is the best way to go about it though. Your thoughts?

Secondly, if a map has many SPs or if I know I'm against Orks, I'll use an initial four Scout build for capping. This plus a servitor and two Marine squads gives 9/10, and after that I'm never sure which way to go. I tend not to make another Scout, and either choose to queue another Marine squad and deleting a Scout unit (which I leave un-upgraded and un-reinforced) once the Marines are ready, or make another servitor to quicken the building. The first does waste a bit of req, but if I have plenty of SPs it's often not so bad, and if I happen to be against Chaos then I really want the extra Marine squad. What's your choice with finishing off a four Scout build?



I had a reminder of a very basic lesson last night. Always do something with your units. After an attack I sat and waited by an upgraded LP in a crater, reinforcing and waiting for tier two. In this time the enemy (only Harder AI; I must admit to being not a good player) had replenished his own troops and made my eventual assault of his base much harder. In my defence I was explaining the game to my brother, so my mind wasn't fully on the task in hand, but it still served as a good reminder never to be idle. Even something as simple and blatantly obvious as taking critical locations (how on Terra did I neglect to do this, brother or no?) to start the Take and Hold countdown, or taking an outlying LP and SP from my enemy would have made things much easier.

[Perp]

When you have the enemy on the run after the initial 10/10 engagement, do you go straight for the base or take out surrounding LPs and take his points first?

I always go for his LPs first. I can't tell you how many times I thought I was in a great position early and decided to go for his base, only to be repelled by someone that has equal resources. Both of you are reinforcing and building squads at the same rate, but he will always have the advantage because he doesn't have to walk his squads all the way across the map. You on the other hand may initially have the advantage, but if he continues to fight you lose that advantage as you have to pull in squads from the other side of the map. With equal resources, he wins. Always take out his points.


Secondly, if a map has many SPs or if I know I'm against Orks, I'll use an initial four Scout build for capping. This plus a servitor and two Marine squads gives 9/10, and after that I'm never sure which way to go.

I recently talked to 1KnowFear and he doesn't always use a 3 scout build, sometimes he uses a four scout build, too. If you watch his replay (which is highly recommended, get it from DoWSanctuary- he recently played MaverickXeno and neither side got to vehicles until the last few minutes of the game... he will show you the meaning of dancing) you will notice that he gets to 9/10. He actually techs up to 15/15 and stays at that for the majority of the game. If your at 9/10, continue to reinforce your squads and play your game the way you are, just tech up to 15/15 as soon as you can.

[Perp]

"The Safe Retreat Lane" (Dancing Revisited)

After watching 1KnowFear's replay again, I wanted to bring out that he is a master of dancing. He moves his squads constantly based on the threat presented and adjusts whether he is attacking or retreating on his loss rate and probability of winning unit vs unit. It really is a must see if you haven't downloaded his replay...

The one thing I did notice is he always has a safe retreat lane. When pulling back he would lead the enemy units into A)his upgraded LP turret and B) into the path of his reinforcements. He actually drew the enemy into a trap each and every time.

One of the keys is he tried to kill off squads, while keeping squads of his own with at least one person. If his own squads got low he would retreat them so that he could get them back up to strength without having to rebuild them in the barracks. This gave him a squad advantage, and ultimately a much larger army than his opponent.

[Jonefun]

Firstly .. "Well Done" to all you guys who have openly participated in this v.informative thread .. especially "Mr Perp".

I been playing SM for a little while now and I must confess that I haven’t played online but have been playing skirmish against pooter on Insane. I managed to dispatch SM->SM which wasn’t too much of a struggle and decided to try SM->Orks on the same setting. Here’s what I noticed.

Firstly as I was playing on a small 1v1 map I used the 2 scout build and main objective was to reach 10/10. Just one observation which I find useful and as yet nobody has mentioned is that after capping the first two SP’s with my scouts I then send both scouts to capture more SP’s but bypassing the ones nearer to my base .. the reason for this is because when I build my MS’s I use them as sort of scouts and send them to cap the reasonably close SP’s, so that I can pull them back if need be. Sending the Scouts (speed/ ignore terrain) on a “Command Queue” capping spree has its advantages because you can see a lot more of the map and obviously you get the req. This gives you an early warning when the red dots start to appear so that you can prepare you forces for the encounter. Choosing the best choke point or ground type on the way.

When fighting Orks they’re going to outnumber you and the nasty creatures love CC and they don’t know when to quit. Also they appear very quickly. The Orks initial army is made up of Big Mek, Sluggas, Shootas and plenty of them .. mingled with a handful of slimey Grots. The problem is that I am attempting to range my MS so that I can shout but I need something to hold off the Sluggas. If I build AM they again get trampled by the Sluggas. I have managed to win the first encounter i.e. beat the Mek and the Sluggas / Shootas combination but before I can raise a glass and say cheers, even more Sluggas / Shooters appear and take out my boys while they licking their wounds.

Obviously Orks are CC and usually appear in large numbers and for that reason are stronger in the opening game .. and SM rely on tech up in order to get the weapons and vehicles etc.

I think my main question is how can I hold the smelly creatures off long enough so that I can slug em with my pelits ? I tried Flammers but they get swamped .. I tried HB but they get swamped and so I have to move em .. doh .. so I try get armoury out and tech up so I can get heavier weapons .. plamsa etc but leaves me with too few MS. The only thing I haven’t tried is turrets .. must say I’m not a fan of them but maybe they can be used to slow the mindless masses long enough so that I can take a pop at em ?

Any suggestions :)

[Perp]

I think my main question is how can I hold the smelly creatures off long enough so that I can slug em with my pelits ? I tried Flammers but they get swamped .. I tried HB but they get swamped and so I have to move em .. doh .. so I try get armoury out and tech up so I can get heavier weapons .. plamsa etc but leaves me with too few MS. The only thing I haven’t tried is turrets .. must say I’m not a fan of them but maybe they can be used to slow the mindless masses long enough so that I can take a pop at em ?

Orks are a rush race. Beat the rush and you have them. I did a rather lengthy discussion wayback in this thread on using one turret in the middle of your base against ork rush... There was a page or so of discussion on it :)

In 1.3, I think you will find that Orks have been nerfed pretty badly. I personally like to bypass the main force if I can't take them cleanly and go straight for his Waaaargh banners. You will find that Orky buildings go down fast, and once they are down his economy goes down with them.

Keep your marine squads seperate and try to have only one squad tied up in CC if possible. If you must tie someone up in CC, sacrifice the scouts in that role. I always attach my FC to a SM and keep that SM on overwatch when CCing Orks. I also try to tech to flamers as quick as I can, and plasma kills everything ork can produce. Ork is scary early to mid game, but late game Marines are MUCH stronger.

[Jonefun]

Noticed a number of players on DoW Sanctuary talking about build orders using more scouts .. in one case up to four scouts in initial build. I think Perp you mentioned that another good player was also talking about the same tactic. The build order I noticed had three MS and 4 Scouts and delayed bring the FC out until later in the game. The tactic relied heavily on squad micro mgmt and dancing and upgrading at least one member of each scout squad with sniper. The main tactic revolves around dancing your squad so that your opponent can only CC with at least one of your MS which is on overwatch. The suggestion was also to upgrade MS with HB which presents one obvious problem with this tactic .. or am I missing something .. it makes no sense to dance with HB ?

Other than that I like the idea of four scouts with sniper .. I remember trying this once and it is a real morale breaker .. but then again .. you can't dance with a scout sniper either ?

Any comments on this BO ? ( See IronClad on DOW Sanctuary .. replays and audio commentary .. for more details )

[haniblecter]

After I sucessfully used some vanilla trakks to stop a WS rush, I then made the mistake of assuming that most, if not all, of his infantry was dead and then upgraded 4 of my 5 trakks with rokits.

Big mistake. Still won the game, but that missle decision almost cost me the game vs. his guardians and new WS squads.

[Ruosteinen]

I recently played a 1v1 against a friend on Blood River, where I first tried the scout harassment tactic - sending an early scout unit to cap a point near the enemy's base and generally harass them, and setting the barracks rallypoint to that forward SP.

I took the point, he countered with two early marine squads, which startled me somewhat since I was expecting the force commander instead. I started to retreat, then realise my commander and another scout squad (finished capping my SPs) was on its way, and halfway through that little skirmish my first marine squad joined in.

By the time his commander came out I'd killed most/all his marines off, had grabbed another of his points and turned it into a full on attack of his base. I was then accused of rushing. Now I thought rushing was making a lot of scouts and sending most into his base straight away, whereas I made 3 scouts with 2 for capping and 1 for harassment. Does this sound like a rush, because if so I'm less inclined to do it in future.


Anyhow, the lesson I learned in this battle: use the default distance that units fire at to lure them into negative cover. If the opponent just clicks to attack a unit, you can back that unit off until the enemy unit waltzes into the negative cover (or out of heavy cover). If the other player isn't paying attention to that unit nd let's them be for even a couple of seconds, it can be quite helpful in the shootout.

[DivineOne]

what's wrong with rushing?

[Chris]

Does this sound like a rush, because if so I'm less inclined to do it in future.


Sounds like your friend just sucked. :p I wouldn't call what you did rushing, more like early harrassment followed by early skirmish.

[Ruosteinen]

what's wrong with rushing?Well, with so much talk of "lame guardian rushing" and "lame scout rushing" etc etc, it sounds like something I want to steer clear of doing. And when I start playing automatches I'll probably not be able to pull off a rush anyway, so I'd rather use these friendly matches to practice skirmishing and microing and whatnot.

Sounds like your friend just sucked. :p I wouldn't call what you did rushing, more like early harrassment followed by early skirmish.Hehe, we're both reasonably new players I think. He defined a rush as having your base attacked within 5 minutes of the game starting, but I'm buggered if I'm waiting 5 minutes before I advance, especially on Blood River.

[Chris]

5 minutes is like, half a game of DoW. :D Since you're new you will probably take things pretty slowly, but once you get used to the game you will have non-stop combat from the 2nd minute and vehicles before 10minutes. :)

My average game length is currently 11 minutes. DoW is amazingly fast paced, you will be surprised just how much can happen in an 11 minute game.

[Ruosteinen]

Yes, that's exactly what I thought. I'm used to having 10 minute battles against the Harder AI (and I know other people often win in less than 5 minutes on Insane). My newness is playing against unpredictable humans rather than predictable AI, rather then being new to the game.

[DivineOne]

average is 14 minutes, all me and my m8s do is rush rush rush, 3v3s or 4v4s, eery single game...unless we want to go for fast speeders or falcons or something :D

[Perp]

I started to retreat, then realise my commander and another scout squad (finished capping my SPs) was on its way, and halfway through that little skirmish my first marine squad joined in.

Very well done! This is exactly what I call "Safe Lane of Retreat", you retreated towards your reinforcements and then pushed back in. I think you will find that the top players are doing this exact thing all the time as space marines have trouble with early Eldar rush. They dance in and out of combat, retreating down their lane (usually to an upgraded LP post) then push when reinforced.

The only thing I would add is you can hop your FC in and out of squads. I would attach him to one of the scout squads fairly quickly and set that squads combat stance on close combat. This will allow him to live a lot longer then if he was out there on his own. If the squad he is attached to is no longer viable unattach him on a retreat and attach him to the new reinforcing squad...

[Phate]

also if the squad the fc is in is about to break un attach him before they do and you've just avoided a broken commander which is no use to anyone. IRIC if you unattach him his morale is instantly full again.