Lame scout rushes...

[Vizier]

I play SM...im not great but im not terrible either...i have about 40 wins and 20 legit losses. Anyways a couple time i have been rushed with about 16+ scouts when all i have is 1 squad of SM and force commander otw...I can put up a fight but pretty much this is a garunteed loss for me.

So my question is is there anyway to defend this without simply getting tons of scouts every game I play? I sure hope so because the scout rush seems a little too powerful. I can easily defend any other type of rush...but scout rush is just too fast to counter with anything other than scouts of your own.

I could really use some help because I dont want to have to get tons of scouts every game just on the off chance my lamer opponent MIGHT scout rush me.

[Hadron]

I'm not sure I see a problem other than maybe just some micromanagement practice on your side. A part of any build order is to have a couple of scout squads (not reinforced) just for point capping. Early in the game you should have (as you said) a squad of space marines and a FC (the other player traded this away for more and reinforced scout squads). You should be able to take out 16 scouts with 4 scouts, 4 space marines and a FC. Keep your scouts back and get the FC into the mix. Your SM should be good in either H2H or ranged combat vs scouts.

--Hadron

[GRIMGORGRIMGOR]

get in to CC with them 4 Sm and FC should take them

[CenturionCajun]

Yeah, once you take their sniper rifles, if they have them, out of the equation they will fall pretty fast in hand-to-hand with marines.

[Optimus Prime]

A single heavy bolter turret will chew through them all pretty fast.

[Vizier]

none of that will work...by rush im talking very fast...theres no way to have an armory.

Theres also no way for 1 squad of marines to get in CC with them...by the time they reach that point theres only 2-3 left max and then they break and die.

And I dont get the FC until after the rush has begun...no point in making an FC before the 1st marine squad as the scouts will focus fire on him and rape ensues.

This is a great game but i think there are some serious balance issuse that need to be addressed. Next time i get scout rushed ill save the replay and you guys can judge for yourself. Its just unbalanced, the only effective way to counter it is to do it yourself, and that is not a fun game.

[Crasster]

Close combat-i find it hard to believe that a fully reinforced squad is going to be cut down before they can get to a sniper. Also, consider the fact that they've got an armory and you don't-perhaps you're building too slowly?

[Macharius]

Viz, build the Force Commander before you build a Space Marine squad. If the scouts really trouble you that much, skip building a Force Commander and build an armoury ASAP and get some Turrets.

[Vampyre]

The FC will not fall to 16 scouts unless he keeps dancing away and you keep chasing. The FC simply doesn't take alot of damage from bolter fire. Neither do Space marines.

If he has 16 scouts, with sniper rifles, and all you have is 1 squad of space marines and a Force commander, you've made a big mistake. His forces cost ALOT more than yours. What'd you spend on?

Scouts are 45 req each. The armory is something like 150/75. Sniper rifles are 40/20 each.

FC is something like 260/80? Marines are 50 each. So, you've got 8 marines, or 400 rq, and 260/80? And he's spent 45x16, or 720 rq JUST on the scouts. Add in the armory and snipe rifles, and its significantly higher.

The biggest problem I've had from 'scout' rushes is that they can take down your flags while capping their own pretty easily. It doesn't matter if they lose the scouts, the loss in having captured points puts you down in req enough that he'll be superior when he shows up. If this is what's happening, adjust your tactics to be more agressive, since he'll be weak early on.

[Noriego]

are we talking 4 squads of 4 scouts each, or 8 of 2, or 16 squads?

[Dagg]

dubble build.Use two servs to build a turret while you still fighting the scouts. Use FC , if they target him dance him out while your marines shoot them , if they go for marines instead FC can whoop them (umm..a ryhme! this should be much easer to remeber now :D)

[sch!Zo]

A FC killed by 16 Scouts ? What where you doing with your FC ? Dancing from one spot to another ? A Squad of 4 Scouts should be killed by a FC in no time

[sandy77uk]

no what hes saying is right from the off, the other guy just builds 9 squads of scouts and rushes you with them, he can overwatch as he goes

he will hit your base probably around the time you've got 4 marines and not quite finished your FC or hes just popped out, its a tough ass fight when somewhere around 24+ scouts com waltzing into your base

[101ST_Belial]

1 Bolter turret will finish them quick. then just march over what you've got to your apponants bace and finnish him off.

[Perp]

Vizer- Can you post the build order you are using? I think this is probably a build order/micro-management issue. Sounds like something to test though :(

[sandy77uk]

Perp try playing against another marine and just que building all scouts, then rush your opponent

[D2F]

The FC will not fall to 16 scouts unless he keeps dancing away and you keep chasing. The FC simply doesn't take alot of damage from bolter fire. Neither do Space marines.

If he has 16 scouts, with sniper rifles, and all you have is 1 squad of space marines and a Force commander, you've made a big mistake. His forces cost ALOT more than yours. What'd you spend on?

Scouts are 45 req each. The armory is something like 150/75. Sniper rifles are 40/20 each.

FC is something like 260/80? Marines are 50 each. So, you've got 8 marines, or 400 rq, and 260/80? And he's spent 45x16, or 720 rq JUST on the scouts. Add in the armory and snipe rifles, and its significantly higher.

The biggest problem I've had from 'scout' rushes is that they can take down your flags while capping their own pretty easily. It doesn't matter if they lose the scouts, the loss in having captured points puts you down in req enough that he'll be superior when he shows up. If this is what's happening, adjust your tactics to be more agressive, since he'll be weak early on.
Sorry, that i post so late, but i wanted to test this out, before i throw in my opinion.

First: the scout rush works only against Space marines. Against any of the other races it fails, if the player knows what to do.

As a space marine, the only counter i found so far, was doing a scout rush as well.

The problems with this rush, being the defender:


Your Opponent just queues up 5 scouts and builds a barracks. No Plasma Gen, no Armory, just The chapter barracks.

He starts to rush, once the last fourth scout squad leaves the HQ.

by that time he capped one sp.

he reinforces his scouts on their way to the opponent.


by that time, the defender has either an almost finished FC, or a squad of Space Marines.

either of them get gunned down by the scouts.

the reinforcement time of the scouts is too fast to cut them down.

the fith scout squad is happily capturing SPs and CPs.



Now, why can they beat a FC? Dancing. (or F2, if we want to go down to that level)

How can they beat a squad of marines? Numbers.

It takes almost an eternity to take down buildings with them, but the can handle everything you throw at them at that point.

I tried multiple builds, multiple strategies, multiple weapons.

Fact is:

You won't have an armory by the time they arrive (unless you play on big maps)

You have either a FC OR Space marines. Not both.

Neither of them can hold off the scouts.


And even worse: there is not even any kind of skill or effort involved with winning this way.

BUT:

If you want, you can throw down a HB turret. That thing can deal with them (but will get shredered by an FC, so it is a bit risky to rely on it).

So, it is fishy, but i know no way how to deal with it in a balancing way. Almost every possibility i came up with would make scouts practically unusable (due to their squad max size).

Closing thought: Learn to live with it. Do it yourself. That is the only advice i can give.

D2F

[Vizier]

D2F-

You identified the problem perfectly...the only way to deal with it is to scout rush yourself...thats pretty lame if you ask me.

I was considering forgoing the FC until i had a full squad of reinforced marines...but rejected that plan because that build will get raped by any other race rush...and its not even a garunteed strat.

ARGH this sucks, i dont want to play another race...i love SM, but if they have an achilles heel like this... GRR!

[Courtsloth]

I have to say i agree w/the early h/b turret idea. Double build it (w/2 servitors), perhapse in favor of the (early) force commander? I think you should be able to have a squad and the turret by time they arive (haven't tested yet tho).

lol - DF2 preempted me =P

[The Collector]

Should a Stronghold have a heavy bolter armament that disappears on upgrade to Monastery? That would defeat early rushes against SM and would be gone in time for Tier2.

With regards to strategy; can you get Assault Marines out in time for the Scout rush? I get the feeling that a armory and squads with HB and flamers might work; but it requires some testing. One could try building scouts with flamers and try to rush his scouts as they come?

[Perp]

If it only works against SM players, then you shouldn't see it to often in 1v1 automatch right? If they are doing it in automatch they 1) can't tell its another sm player they are going against until already commited, and 2) will lose 75% of the time due to other races played.

I guess I will have to worry about it when it happens. D2F- did you go against that rush with just the MS or FC? Or did you pull back your own scouts to reinforce? I would say this- don't leave your MS/FC/whatever at your base to get rushed. If you see that your getting rushed with scouts then pull back until your squads are up to strength? If you break his rush he should be finished...

Just thoughts, I really need to test against this if it is a viable and used tactic in 1v1 automatch.

Would someone be willing to meet me today say 4 CST to try these out? I will be in solarus... PM me if you would like... Will share results.

...

[Noriego]

You can build mines too. Seems people always forget about them. Also, you dont have to fight. Simply keep capping, take away caps from your opponent, etc. His or her economy will run dry and you will overwhelm eventually.

Its not like while you run away the squads can destroy your base. Run a serv away and build a 2ndary base.

At this point lets start posting replays, or link to replays in the battle archives with this strat. Lets do the math - I dont think the games broken by this.

Nori

[Dooks Dizzo]

Nori,

Pure genious. Mines baby, kiss your scout ass good bye.

I play marines and have never had anyone try this against me effectively. I also NEVER play 1v1, or not as of yet. I really prefer team work. I had someone try the scout rush on me but they were a bit slow...and ate more heavy bolter fire than they could handle.

[sch!Zo]

I dont get the Point why this scout rush should be soooo "bad" ... it can be countered and so its just one more rush tactic for early game nothing more .And theres nothing like an uber rush i heard of so far so what are you complaining about ?

[Crombie]

Since the scouts are so ineffective against bases why not just send your guys outside of the base, and setup your alternate buildings like armory by a captured LP? He would have to do some pretty heavy searching to find you if you kept moving around. And if you send your reinforcments outside of the base area you should be able to get at least 2 or 3 of them out of there. All the while you can keep capping, and keep a watch on what his scouts are doing. Unfortunately I have no way to test this theoretical strategy until I buy the game, and the computer in the demo only sends in mass scouts if you turtle and manage to wipe out enough of his rushes (including his first vehicles). I have not seen this in awhile since I now know that I need to spread out right away compared to other RTS' where I was used to hunkering down, and playing pure defense in my base.

[Vizier]

Since the scouts are so ineffective against bases why not just send your guys outside of the base, and setup your alternate buildings like armory by a captured LP? He would have to do some pretty heavy searching to find you if you kept moving around. And if you send your reinforcments outside of the base area you should be able to get at least 2 or 3 of them out of there. All the while you can keep capping, and keep a watch on what his scouts are doing. Unfortunately I have no way to test this theoretical strategy until I buy the game, and the computer in the demo only sends in mass scouts if you turtle and manage to wipe out enough of his rushes (including his first vehicles). I have not seen this in awhile since I now know that I need to spread out right away compared to other RTS' where I was used to hunkering down, and playing pure defense in my base.

Because the first wave of scouts is only the beginning. While hes keeping me busy with those scouts...he has other scouts capping my points and getting his as well. Also he is simultaneously building FC and regular SM along with armory etc to come and finish the job.

Theres just no way to counter this save for copying it. A turret might work but then you have to deal with the fact that he can simply avoid the turret and cap all you points instead.

I dont see this rush a lot in 1v1 because as someone mentioned it only really works against SM. But when i do see its pretty much game over. Thats lame imo.

EDIT: Can someone outline a basic strat for laying mines in order to counter this rush? Ive played about a hundred games now and ive never used mines. Are they effective?

[Vertigo]

I don't see the problem.

First, it's a mirror match problem. Every faction has issues where mirror matches remove all strategy. This is totally understandable, as you don't have any racial strengths or weaknesses vs. your opponent. Thus your strats become very limited. If we look, we can find the exact same problems with other mirror matches (like Slugga hell for Ork vs. Ork).

Second, your description of the turret strat is accurate, but I think you draw the wrong conclusions. If he rushes Scouts, and you turtle, you win. If you turtle, and he "techs" to FC, he wins. If he rushes, and you tech to FC, you lose.

This describes the classic rock-paper-scissors of RTSes: rush > tech > turtle > rush.

This is strategy, and it's a good thing.

As always, get scouting early, and find out what is coming.

[Vizier]

I don't see the problem.

First, it's a mirror match problem. Every faction has issues where mirror matches remove all strategy. This is totally understandable, as you don't have any racial strengths or weaknesses vs. your opponent. Thus your strats become very limited.


ok this is waaaay over simplifying it...to the point of not making sense. You are completely over looking a little ol thing called micro and execution. I completely agree that mirror matches somewhat limit your options but you STILL SHOULD HAVE SOME OPTIONS!

All things being equal id say micro is the most important skill you have. With good micro...smaller armies can win battles. Now if the scout rush strat completely takes micro out of the equasion then its a broken strat. The only counter is to copy it.

Look at WC3 for example. Im very skilled at that game and i cant think of ANY situation where my only option was to do exactly what my opponent was doing. Its a strategy game, why should one tactic take all the strategy out?

[Noriego]

Quote : Can someone outline a basic strat for laying mines in order to counter this rush? Ive played about a hundred games now and ive never used mines. Are they effective?

Vizier, are you kidding me? Eeep! Is your online profile the same as your handle here? I'd be interested to see your stats.

In anycase they're great! Perfect early game strat for the nuetral flag in the middle of a map. And ofcourse, its so awesome when a horde of orkz go charging at you cap point just to go flying all over the place. If the commander isn't paying attention and doesn't retreat, they'll just keep happily walking all over them, all while the scouts you've equiped with snipers pop away at them. Its fantastic! They're really useful in choke points as well. You have to try them, brotha!

Nori

[Vizier]

Thanks Noriego ill give it a try...i just have a hard time finding enough req. early in the beginning to spare on mines (potentially useless). I will try it tho.

[Triz]

I think you should place the mines around only your core base. No point in going outward and finding more far away chokepoints.

[Mortis]

Actually, sounds more like a lack of managment thing. If you see this guy come at you with loads of scouts, immediatly place 1 turret in your base and retreat. reinforce up to around 6 SM's with FC then rape his ass. scouts will do nothing in terms of dmg to the Fc while you whittle him down with the SM's. Since all his troops are around YOUR FC and sm's, run some scouts around capping res and take his down while you're at it. Guaranteed 1 squad of sm's with FC can overpower pretty much any amount of scouts he's gonna field in the comparable time. If he rushes you with all those scouts, guaranteed you can get way ahead of him in the resource area.

As with ANY RTS, and I do mean ANY, your number one priority isn't how uber your troops are, but how deep your pockets are. Economy > all in any strategy game, RTS or otherwise.

[Vertigo]

ok this is waaaay over simplifying it...to the point of not making sense. You are completely over looking a little ol thing called micro and execution. I completely agree that mirror matches somewhat limit your options but you STILL SHOULD HAVE SOME OPTIONS!


I don't see that Micro or Execution are relavent, as you should assume both are equal for both players. Or are we not talking balance here?

Far enough, I misspoke, as I didn't mean ALL options. And, as we've already mentioned, you've got at least one alternative at the moment: turrets.

Let's take War3 as an example, since you brought it up. Say there was a 1v1 map as small as Dow's smallest maps. Say, in a UD mirror match one player sends Ghouls from game start. You aren't going to have much in the way of options. Actually, you'll have none except to rely on any Zigs you might get up, or if you insta-upgrade to HoTD. Otherwise, it's Ghoul vs. Ghoul.

I don't see how DoW really compares THAT unfavorably to War3 when you compare instant rushes.

[KnifeFight]

how about get both scouts and SM+FC at the same time? SM in front taking damage while scouts stay back and the FC does his thing (smiting ppl)

[<DAB>FallenZero]

Scouts aren't meant to rush. It's foolish to use them in straight up combat cuz they're weak. But they do great recon. But even that's limited. Scouts should only be used to gather points.

[Perp]

Tested this out extensively last night. What we came up with was to put a turret in the middle of your base- and if they don't rush, you can always resale it and recoup some of the points spent on it.

Did you know that turrets shoot threw just about everything?

[Mortis]

...you can always resale it and recoup some of the points spent on it.

YOU CAN SELL BUILDINGS ?!?!?

[D2F]

Should a Stronghold have a heavy bolter armament that disappears on upgrade to Monastery? That would defeat early rushes against SM and would be gone in time for Tier2.

With regards to strategy; can you get Assault Marines out in time for the Scout rush? I get the feeling that a armory and squads with HB and flamers might work; but it requires some testing. One could try building scouts with flamers and try to rush his scouts as they come?
Nope, no assault marines possible. You will not have an armory built by then.

D2F

Double Post


YOU CAN SELL BUILDINGS ?!?!?
Yes you can

D2F

[Vizier]

I don't see that Micro or Execution are relavent, as you should assume both are equal for both players. Or are we not talking balance here?

Far enough, I misspoke, as I didn't mean ALL options. And, as we've already mentioned, you've got at least one alternative at the moment: turrets.

Let's take War3 as an example, since you brought it up. Say there was a 1v1 map as small as Dow's smallest maps. Say, in a UD mirror match one player sends Ghouls from game start. You aren't going to have much in the way of options. Actually, you'll have none except to rely on any Zigs you might get up, or if you insta-upgrade to HoTD. Otherwise, it's Ghoul vs. Ghoul.

I don't see how DoW really compares THAT unfavorably to War3 when you compare instant rushes.

Oh man i hate to flame you here but you are seriously clueless about WC3 and that makes me very suspicious on your assessment of DoW.

Regarding your example of a ghoul rush on a small map...lol is all i have to say. I happen to play undead exclusively. By the time my opponent has 6-7 ghouls and a hero at my base (usually right around night) I have 1 frost tower, CL with 4-5 beetles, 3 spiders and 1 spider building AND a wand (usually). And yes i can have all that by Darkness of the first day. And truth be told all I really need is my crypt lord and tower to repel that rush most times.

ALternatively I could make ghouls.

My 3rd option would be to tower & tech up.

BUT NO MATTER WHAT IF I SUCK AT MICRO ALL 3 OF THOSE COUNTERS WILL FAIL!!!!! <---Read this line and try to comprehend why micro SHOULD be a factor in DoW scout rushes. In DoW a poorly skilled player can get an easy win from a better player when using this strat UNLESS his opponent uses the exact same strat. That by definition means that in an SM mirror match scout rush is the BEST strat and every time I play against another SM i should use that. That is NOT what a strategy game is supposed to be...there are supposed to be options...with advantages and disadvantages associated with those options. The way it stands now I may as well play the card game War if I get unlucky enough to face another SM who will scout rush me because thats about as much mental ability it takes to scout rush and win.

So we have at least 3 viable options (just off the top of my head) to defend a rush in wc3. DoW is giving me 1 option (turret) that only works on certain maps where you control points are close to your base. How would a turret help me stop the scouts from stealing all my CP that are far away (meanwhile hes making an FC etc of his own) ? Make more turrets? Not likely if I want an FC and a SM squad. Its a broken part of the game, one that i have absolute confidence they will address in a few months with a balance patch.

[Fatal justice]

Double Post

The trick to not being rushed with space marines is to get infiltration straight after youve built a servitor and two scout squads. Double build the chapel and build a SM squad and FC straight up, the two scout squads should have capped two flags by now so move them up under infliltration to the next flags to see if anybody is there first while the SM squad caps a flag thats close to your base. The whole idea is to use the scout squads to keep tabs of his force while not letting him know what you have and also allowing you to concentrate your forces before battle

[Gimpro]

I think you should place the mines around only your core base. No point in going outward and finding more far away chokepoints.

man mines are fine, but the thing is that they take forever to build... just build some turrets for early off in the game, and thatl solve the problem up

[3zekiel]

The rush in any form, to my mind, stinks of abuse. Ok, so if you're playing too slow at a game like DoW you ought to get mauled, but Scoutrush, SC rush; it boils down to the same thing. How much fun can it really be for the rusher, not to mention the rushee? Of course you've got to play to win, but where's the fun in a cheap win?

[Vizier]

3zeikel I completely agree. Unfortunately before you can get to the truly fun games you have to be able to overcome the cheap wins. Human nature will make some people look for the easy way out instead of learning the real strats. However once you can defeat the cheap strats the game gets really fun...this is exactly why I started this thread...im tired of lame boring games where someone rushes me and either he beats me or I stop the rush and he gives up because he cant withstand a coutner attack.

[3zekiel]

Well put, Vizier. This is the main stumbling block I encounter with online play...honestly, why I've largely given it up. I get SO annoyed with getting beat in a cheesy way that I quit playing. However, DoW has me kind of psyched. Perhaps it's time to throw my hat back in the ring...

[Soulrender]

Hello Vizier, the solution is very very easy, just get 2 servitors to swiftly produce a turret, and those sneaky bastards will be ripped apart, or you could just engage some of the scouts with a scout squad and Force Commander of your own, meanwhile the space marine squad ripps scouts apart with a heavy bolter. I would prefer not to engage scouts with a marine squad, i personally think its waste of awesome heavy bolter firepower, so you must keep them at distance from your space marine squad while they Force commander and/or scouts engage the enemies in cc. I hope it will work =)

[3zekiel]

Good idea...maybe Ezekiel rides again?

[chobo321321]

Scouts have low moral, so just send your force commander up there and go smack some scouts around. You should have a couple of marine squads like 2-3 by the time he has all those scouts, so just fire at the scouts with regular weapons. If you have time build a squad of assualt marines and jump pack over there. The key is to break the scouts moral, which is not that hard to do.

[draculthemad]

FFS people. Theyve already mentioned the counter to this.
One heavy bolter turret rapes any number of scouts, and outranges the scouts no less.

A single reinforced scout squad costs more than a hb turret as well.
There isnt any deep issues here.

[DaSmurF]

Bolter Turret rips scouts apart.

[strategery]

Cap the between your base and his base first, then slap an LP on it. that'll keep the scouts busy(since they do s*** for damage), if your REALLY quick(and I have seen thsi done) you can double build that LP, and throw an HB turret next to it. Make this your priority.

Build I'd suggest for this.
scout
servitor
scout
servitor 1 goes to build chapel
scout 1 caps middle flag
servitor 2 goes directly to the flag
scout 2 caps nearby flags
mid flag capped - lp(barracks should be done)
servitor 2 starts LP, while servitor 1 is en route to aid
scout 1 helps to cap the rest of flags
LP finished
HB turret double build.

He'll run into a meat grinder if you do this right :). To add a little heat to the flame, resources permitting as well, put some mines in front of the turret. It'll keep his scouts stunned so the HB turret can demolish em.

I've never been scout rushed, but I've seen people who have been able to pull off a similar tactic VERY EARLY in the game. This of course depends on the map, and WILL NOT WORK on fallen city or a similar map.

[Ironheaded]

Okay, I had to test out this Scout Rush theory on my own before addressing the issue. I've never been one for games with cheap-n-cheesey tactics, and I go crazy working on defenses and counters to such tactics. It's very funny to hear this ranting OUTSIDE the Table Top version of the game.

What I tried was this.

1 Servitor.. builds plasma
1 Scout .. caps point
1 Servitor builds Chapel Barracks as other builds LP
4 more Scout squads, grabbing points

At about third or fouth point, while Armory is being built and Force Commander is getting out of bed, I gather all the scout squads but one together at one point- usually a mid-field point or Critical. The other scout squad is sent to grab other points and actually scout. With the bunch, here I add some upgrades - a third or fourth scout per squad..and 1 flamer per squad. I now have about 10-15 men, joined with Force Commander and assigned for quick use under a Ctrl-1 key. Back to base, start building Marine squads, upgrading Stronghold, build stuff.

What I learned : Scouts suck a trashing buildings, even LP's. A marine squad with 1 heavy bolter will chew through ALL these squads unless there is the flamers in with them. Flamers keep squads off scouts and out of HTH, so a sniper rifle paired with the flamer works..as does a plasma gun when available. Trying this build out has gotten me out of "must build SM squads!!" impulses that made me vulnerable to other people rushing me.

What I have: a strong, and cheaply built defensive, and counter-punching mob of light infantry with FC to keep things honest. My other marines are built and sent on raids or important defenses. I never make another scout squad again (unless I'm really in trouble from a rush) I can fight off or draw against early game rushes (especially the Insane Lvl computer ones) to buy time to build up myself. With all the squads under hot-key, I can micromanage them easier, and select WHICH rushing squad I want to break first! In some ways, the squads are bodyguards for the FC, and easier to find on the mini-map (all those green dots!) This mob is now scouting squared: A recon-in-force if you will. Like knights in chess... an early game tactic. I avoid heavy bolter turrets, and boltered LP's

So, instead of a SC rush, I have an anti-rush force that I hadn't thought of before. I hate getting rushed, hate getting abused for enjoying the action and not building stuff. The Scout mob isn't gonna live through half the game... deader faster used stupidly. Plasma gun upgrades and staying in cover help kill other Marine/Chaos Marine/Seer Councils/shurikens/shootas squads faster... The force buys me time with a defensive force. In slow games, having them all Infiltrated is sneaky-sneaky.. especially if they are shadowing someones rushing force unescorted by a character. SURPRISE (sounds of flamers and bolters)

Thank you guys for helping me turn a negative into a positive.

[Supercilious]

Iron, good post and plan, I am going to try it out later today.