how to stop an Ork rush with Chaos?

[Navaros]

i need help with this

it seems that even if i build things as fast as i can, the enemy Ork always rushes me with 3 Slugga Boyz units by the time i only have one CSM squad with 4 members and a Chaos Lord. i also have 2 Cultists squads but they get killed so fast that they're not even worth mentioning

how am i being out-built so badly vs. Orks and what's the proper way to counter this?

direction to any good Chaos vs. Ork-rusher replays would be great too

[labour_Union]

use force labour to get marines and CL faster, then you should have 2 CSM squads+CL and have some more memebers before 3 sluggas arrive..... and do they have bigmek?

[FabiusBile]

Are you using Forced Labor to speed up your Temple build time? Are you effectively using Cultists as a meatshield? Yes they would die quickly to Sluggas in close combat, but they also reinforce quickly, allowing even more time for your Chaos Marines to fire into the fray or at an isolated squad. Having the Chaos Lord in close combat could certainly provide enough time to get a second Marine squad out before he dies. Remember, you are fighting on your own ground, so if the Ork player needs to send in more squads, he has to march them across the map.

[DarthVaygr]

Besides, Chaos buildings improve the regeneration rate of your units and hurt enemy morale. :) Yeah I know, it is cool.

[Dragonie]

I actually timed my building speed in a replay vs Orks - 1st CSM squad for me comes out anywhere between 00:01:05 and 00:01:20 - and I haven't been playing very long. Once you get that first squad out, you then can sustain your defense until more come. The point here is, use forced labor :D

[Navaros]

forced labor doesn't seem to have been helping me too much

maybe i'm building too many LP's early on? or not enough? i need some more advice besides "use forced labor" because what i've said here happens even when i use forced labor. if i don't use forced labor, then things are even worse than stated in my original post

[Vertigo]

A turret works wonders, especially on the smallest maps. It will basically stop any number of Orks less than... oh, about 10 or so. All that for 150 RP. That gives you more than enough breathing room to get your army out.

An opening Ork rush is easy to beat with a turret, as there will be no Big Mek.

HOWEVER, knowing it is coming is not easy. Scouting, as always, is key.

[Skullcap]

I've tried this combo:

Starting off, to make sure I can take on the ork rush I start off with the usual build list.

build barrack
build builder, 2 cults

the 2 builders build the barrack, then when thats finished build the armory. soon as thats built, research the extra weapons option, this allows you bring your squads up to 4 heavy weapons each.

While doing all this you should have 2 squads of marines with 4 heavy bolters between them untill the research is complete, when the research is complete you got the option to have 8 heavy bolters, or 4 plasma guns. 8 heavy bolters can deal with 2-3 squads orks quite easily. :D

Remember stances, if you put the yellow one, can't remember its name at the moment and set ranged stance for weapon fire, you can easily pick off the orks as they charge in, the one key thing to remember here is, Orks need to close in to CC to do damage early game, if there all charging at your 2 squads with heavy bolters, there gonna get shot up and there morale will break really quickly. By the time the orks have got into range you should have set your to builders to make a turret. That will help ya marines even more and if you got the 2 squads up to 10 man teams your gonna win.

The chaos lord helps a bunch if you get him into CC, he'll scatter the troops in all directions and that will allow your heavy bolter guys to rip those guys up. Remember his scythe slaughters morale, and the best way to break a ork rush is to break there morale. Kill enough of em and there useless, orks advantage is that they get immune to morale in groups, hence why they rush in a hoard, break that morale and there useless. :bandit:

Skull

[Navaros]

in my experience turrets have been utterly useless vs. an Ork rush

in regards to "getting 8 heavy bolters right away" the problem is i can not afford to do that. i don't have enough resources to afford that til way after he's already got 3 Slugga Boyz

[Lokust]

Hey Navaros, are you done calling people cheaters and exploiters when you lose, and actually making an effort to improve your play? Must say that you're the only person who's ever called me a "f---ing gay faggot" 20+ times in one game.

[Raith]

yeah forced labour works wonders for getting out a squad faster. If the other person rushes with 3 sluggas squads, its not much concern since the CL would be able to do some serious damage to em. A turret I find is semi usefull, it will do a good job mowing down the enemy, but for the most part it works as a deterance since most ppl seem rather reluctant to lose any units. As for building too many LPs sometimes that could be the case, often I dont build LPs on my locations and build more squads or tech up etc etc. I tend only to build LPs near the front line where I might need the morale aura, and added firing power, only later on when i have the cash would i build LPs back in my original locations.

[Navaros]

the thing is shortly after the Slugga Boyz rush starts he brings out a Warboss by the time i only have 2 CSM squads and a CL. the Warboss is the biggest problem. he pounded me really badly in that situation :(

[Raith]

Pretty sure its not the Warboss, Big Mek yes, Warboss no. The comp would need some 61 Orks to get to it, and plus all the time and money put into teching up. You'd prolly want to dance your squads around a bit more. What I normally do is throw my CL at the regular troops and avoiding the other commander unit, while keeping my own unit away from the enemy commander, if at all possible. Anways a cultist squad is good for keeping the enemy forces occupied, just set em to overwatch, and melee them it\ll go a long way in aiding your cause.

[Navaros]

seems to me that if i send Cultists against Slugga Boyz then all my Cultists are dead by the time i finish blinking :argh:

i haven't been able to use cultists as meatshields other than vs. Eldar Guardians or SM scouts or something. vs. Orks i couldn't get any mileage out of Cultists at all

as far as 'dancing my squads' - i tried that. i even tried using the 'V' move command but most of the time it wouldn't work when i did that to CSM squads engaged in CC with the Slugga Boyz (this is very bad for my CSM's i know - that's why i was trying to move them away!)

now that i think about it yeah you're right it was a Big Mek with his Slugga Boyz

[Raith]

Well you'd prolly do best to run and fire, basically lure him to chase after u and then shoot while running and hopefully lure him into a turret, or keep him occupied till your A. Amroury is done so you can use bolters (they really kick ass vs Orks) or B. Lure him near your buildings hopefully drawing fire or have the morale damaging aura kick in, or C. Keep them occupied till another sqaud comes out to back you up. Of course I'm assuming this is happening closer to your base, so if he sends more squads it will take time for them to reach u.

[darkminnion]

Ok I am going to explain this best i can ! if you want to stop and ork rush !

As you start go B -> E (Build Cultist Barracks) THEN
click on your main and press C x2 (Building 2x Cultist now) THEN
press H x1 (Building 1 more worker) THEN
as ur 1st set of Cultists come out take the nearest point THEN
as ur 2nd set of Cultist come out take the next nearest point THEN
Always remmember to use shift to que them to go to the next point and when ur Chaos Barrack is Halfway Force Labour the worker till it is finished THEN as ur 2nd worker comes out of the Main building select him and go B -> R (Build Chaos Armory) BY THEN
Ur Chaos Barracks is done build 1 plat of CSM -> and take the worker from here and build ur 1st listening post "cost 100 minerals) (What i have seen which really helps -> when u have finished building a listening post you get a 50 bonus to ur minerals for completeing it) AT THE SAME TIME
Start making your 2nd set of CSM`s and Force Labour the worker building the armory when it is halfway done AND when he has completed make him build a listening post on the next nearest strat point, by this time also ur 1st listening post has been finished get that worker to start a Plasma Generator B -> P.

AT THIS POINT you should have 2 Platoons of CSM`s 2 groups of cultists 2 workers and 2 listening posts and at least 4 to 5 strat points.

WHAT normally happens, if the Ork decides to rush he will bring his goons and start taking down your strat points without posts (GOOD opertunnity to attack with marines and cultist from range, he will then obviously try to chase you down, By this time you must have finished or be busy building your CL "Keep harrasing him with marines and cultist if he tries to take points until the CL is done" ANOTHER IPORTANT thing i find it best to have the Cultists and CSM on F2 & F7 cant remmember excact what they say i think ranged and sumtin.

Once you have started building your CL then start reiforcing your platoons, and add at least 2 grenade launchers per group of cultys and 1 flamer per group of CSM and the rest Bolters.

IMPORTANT you have not upgraded any listening posts to turrets yet at this point if the pressure is too much from either side reinforce that sides defence with a upgraded listening post, listening posts take down tier 1 group 1 squads.

ANOTHER Good Pointer is to use your CL to attack his troops head on to scatter them, if he starts losing some hitpoint from da Big Mek or otherwise run him to the back of ur platoons and attach him to the front platoon as to give them a morale boost and make it harder to target ur CL.

CULTISTS early game is very important and even at later stages, becaus etheir grenade upgrade scatter units and break moral easier. Flamethrowers also break moral easier.

Well hope this helps.

By this time hopefully you have been able to start teching for tier 2 to get some Defilers which are just DA Bomb vs Infantry with their massive launchers.

Another Important vehicle is the one after the defiler not sure what name is again but it is the tank that tank alone can take out about 5 to 7 war traks and is also ectremely good vs Infantry.

Get up to 3 Plasma generator ASAP !

DarkMinnion
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What we do not fear can not hurt us !

[NuKeD]

Confusing, shouldn't have done it with Hotkeys

[Goatboy]

I don't see anything confusing about it...very nice build in my opinion and well explained here

[Raith]

Unofortunately a Big Mek and 2-3 sluggas will easily tear through 2 CSM and 2 Cultists. I prefer getting out 3 cultist squads ASAP to capture (scout if need be) and skipping the armoury till I have a CL. More often than not a player with a commander that rushes one without will win. I'm sure we're all aware that a single commander can take on a whole squad by itself. personally I don't use Defilers on the Orks, since Ork players get vehicles faster, and any ork player in their right mind would go for Wartracks, upgrading them to Rokkits if need be should they encounter Defilers. I'd go with PSMs since they tear through Orks squads. A PSM squad with a CL will be hell to the enemy.

[darkminnion]

Raith

A squad of marines can easily defeat a FC, FS, BM or CL with a lil bit of tactic, abviously i am not goign to run my CSM`s into his hero i am gonna keep running unless you havent noticed CSM`s run faster than heros, except for the FS if they have already upgraded fleet foot but by that time you are more prepared.

Like I said if you get pressure upgrade a listening post to a turret post and 2ndly you are goign to take your squad way ahead of your captured strat point to scout for enemy units trying to capture points.

It is all about strat, personaly i wouldnt try take on a squad of marines with only my hero the loss in hitpoints are just not worth it ! Would rather wait till i can get in a fight then bring my hero closer for a attack to spread his units and then run him back once the enemy starts to concentrate fire on him !!!

DarkMinnion
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All is not always what it seems, the deepest corner of the ocean and the furthest start does not compare to the depth of the human mind and soul !

[Raith]

Good points, it just depends on what you want to do, if the enemy squad runs, it does mean that forcing him to run thus temporarily giving me control of a bit more territory and allowing me to direct the flow of the game, unless I waste time to pursue. In the long run just depends on what u and the other guy are doing.

[Navaros]

i need to ask this question:

if i use "V" to move then do my CSM's still fire while moving with that "V" command?

or is the only way to make them fire while moving to do a standard rightclick?

i've found that often my units don't move where i tell them to unless i use the "V" command... yet it seems if they don't fire with the "V" command that could be a big problem vs. Orks

[FabiusBile]

If I am that concerned with my units engaging anything on its way, I usually use the attack-move command, pressing "a" and clicking at a location. But I'm not sure if there is any difference between doing that, and just "right clicking" at a location.

[darkminnion]

The cultist are extreme power !

But you have to upgrade their grenade ability, with grenades you can use attack ground which will shoot grenades wherever you wish master, the other thing is to put them on f2 and f7 to use them as ranged & stand ground.

DarkMinnion
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What we do not fear can not hurt us !

[tehhelios]

Cultist as ranged troops :argh:

I pretty much use them for getting waypoints and to stand in melee for abit so i can shoot the enemy.

Anyhow, I do the cl first. then add 2 csm squads as fast as i can(before armory).

Basically altar, battery then get troops and listening posts.

Seems to work well against every enemy except orc and at the same time i have it real easy to beat chaos with orc.

psm are badass until the orc makes tracks with bombardment and just scatter them around and break them.

Personally i think raptors seems to be the key winning against orc(2 flamers+ sergant) Just not tried them enough, flamers works nicely aswell.

[SureFoot]

My starting tactics against orks:
* 2 CS (CS1 & CS2) + 1 heretic (H2)
* H1 builds temple with forced work
* CS1 goes out to capture a central point
* stop forced work on H1 (should be red at that time)
* CS2 goes out to capture nearby points
* H1 finishes his work. Immediately chain 1 CL + 1 CSM
* move H1 + H2 to captured points to build LP's (forced work with H2 ASAP, keep alive as well)
* by that time CS1 & CS2 have a queue of orders to capture all points
* make sure H1 & H2 follow them to build LP's ASAP
* CL is out. Move him to central point. 2 possibilities
1 - orks are there. Cut them to pieces with the CL, aiming the strong unit first. Immediately chain a 2nd CSM squad at barracks (if the 1st is not out already)
2 - orks are not there. upgrade the LP to a turret
* CSM are out. Immediately max em or use overwatch. Make em go with the CL but do not attach CL. You'll want CL to engage in CC while CSM are shooting
* If LP is upgraded now you're clear from any quick ork rush
* If you built a 2nd CSM to hold the 1st rush, move them out + max em (overwatch) and add their firepower to the mix. Upgrade central LP ASAP

Alternative to upgrading the LP: build armory, and buy heavy bolters for the squads. Orks won't have time to reach CC distance. Requires micromanagement / at least partial cover for the squad. Or else use flamers.

If you lose an heretic, usually things go wrong quickly as you'll be south a few LP's and the orks will be quickly overflowing.. buying a new heretic will only work on very small maps (2 players) on all other maps the lost time gives orks the advantage.

Try to keep the CL alive until you can get PSM's (the logical strategy against orks). If he's in the red move him near a LP to boost regen.

[Haemoculi]

Well I'll let you in on my build order. Sounds good eh?
1. As soon as the game starts click B then P click on the ground.
2. Get another Heretic.
3. Que up two Cultist Sqauds.
4. As soon as the other Heretic is done use him to help the the Generator.
5. Then use them both to build a barracks alternating Forced Labor.
6. Capture points with Cultist.
7. Build CSM when barracks are done.
8. both Heretics build Armory.
9. Get CL when CSM are done.
10. Reinforce your marines.
11. Use heretics to build LPs. Do this seperatley.
12. Get Heavy Bolters. Heavy Bolters are effective against every teir1 unit when used in Ranged Stance.
13. After that you have a good rushing force and I got this down to about 2:25.

[BrianGeneral]

Force Labour on the temple,and a turret.
Should cut down Orks easily.

If you have a CL but your enemy doesn't have a Mek then use your CL to kill Boyz.