Sick of Seer Council being Overpowered?

[SubZero]

Then explain how to counter this...

2 Full Ork Slugga Squads charging your base in the first 1min30secs, you will be lucky to even have a FS at this point.

OR

FS + 2 Marine Squads with Heavy Bolters + 2 Scout squads with Flamers.

OR

Chaos Lord + 2 Marine Squads + 3 Cultist Squads.

Explain please?

Once the enemy rushes you, you stand no chance as Eldar without the Seer Council, and even then, without the Farseer your Seer Council won't live that long.

[XavionDeosXIV]

Ok, well in direct counter to your arguments:

Ork rush: This is total BS. The Ork resource and pop cap won't allow two fully reinforced slugga squads inside 2 min. Not F'ing possible. U have to get at least 3 WAAAGH! banners to do this. At most by 1:30 youll be facing 10-12 sluggas, maybe with a Big mek (actually much more likely). Guardians can hold them off with proper micro till your FS/council arrives to dispense with them. If they throw the big mek at u, use mindwar and psy storm. Hell, if you see it coming u can go for warpspiders. They absolutely tear the orks apart in the early game.

SM rush: The time it takes for the SM armory to be deployed and for the weapons to be equipped puts this rush at about 3:00 Minimum. Even then youll be dealing with minimum squads, as theres no way for a SM player to build an armory, FC, two tac squads, and upgrade them + reinforce them inside 3:00. Now, if you scout the enemy or somehow find out that they are SM (or chaos) build a reaper squad or two. Those guys absolutely tear marines up. As far as the scouts, guardians should be able to take care of them. Remember, use the guardians as meatshields while your reapers tear up the bulk of the force. As far as the FC, Mind war helps. It takes a lot of micro to beat this rush w/o the council, but its doable. The same pretty much applies to the chaos rush described.

Now, that said, the default SC is a fair unit, and it is their best rush-killer, no doubt. The problem with the council is conceal (if youve read my other posts ive been hammering this point). Conceal is still bugged like it was in the beta (or at least it sure seems to be). Once researched, it allows the council to absorb insane amounts of ranged fire. Thats the only real problem with the council. Once conceal is fixed, half of the players who are pissed about an "overpowered" council will be happy. Problem is that, because conceal is so good, Eldar players can have a couple guardian squads, an FS, and the council w/ conceal inside 3 minutes and rush. Rushing with that, assuming proper micro, is next-to-unbeatable. No side should be able to rush with near-impunity. SM/Chaos simply cannot dish out enough ranged damage to take out the council, and none of their units can stand up to them in CC.

Look, i understand your concern. Lotsa people have been crying nerf the Eldar left and right. 99.9% of the ideas are insane and would completely break the Eldar. But u have 2 b blind to c that theres not a problem here. If u don't believe me, try the conceal council rush yourself.

[SubZero]

i never have rushed with the council, i dont have the confidence to pull it off :P

What i have seen, is at the end of a match, the big battle, i usually send in a Falcon with the Council + seer inside, to the enemy base.

Here, they can absorb alot of damage, and is a while before any dies. Infact, the first one to die is usually the Farseer. Once she dies the rest seem to die quicker also.

[First And Only]

I agree completely with Xavion. he said everything I was going to say, so there's not much I can add.

Honestly people need to realize that before the SC rush was heavily used, Eldar players dealt with all of this stuff regularly during the beta. So posting that Eldar can't handle this and thate arly strat is pretty much futile.

The SC (without conceal) seems fair to me except when you factor in entangle (especially on heros). Entangle combined with mind war and focus firing is what helps make it so dominant. I think entangle lasts too long, but more importantly, I believe it lasts too long on heroes. I think heroes should be less affected by it, and perhaps a slight reduction on entangle's duration vs other units too. It's fairly inexpensive to have an entangle ready for 3/4 of the enemy for reapers/spiders/platforms to mow down without fear of them escaping.

But anyways that can be debated on, but I consider entangle affecting heros for far too long as a truth.

[Sps]

from the global stats page

Top Races Win Loss %
Eldar 29912 24579 55
Chaos 30847 27372 53
Space Marine 62773 55525 53
Ork 17773 17318 51

Top competitive lader player = Ork
Top non competitive ladder player = Chaos

So much for Uber council imbalance.


All races seem extremely close - and if council were that overpowered, or if slugga+mek rush were so overpowered the difference would be larger than 2%


Please - enough of "passionate" opinions - eldar is fine, so are ork, and so are csm and sm - relic actually delivered an extremely polished game.

And if you hold onto those 2% - you must really have issues.


http://www.dawnofwargame.com/ladder/homepage.php

[Reborn]

These stats don't prove much since they include games vs cpu. Stats from only the 1v1 ladder would be more usefull. The game is fairly balanced, but elder do need some more tweaking imo.

[Fenris-X2]

Hero armor not targetable by entangle plz -_-;;
or 3second MAX.

The soulshrine is just ridiculous, it needs to be 200 req not 140 at least. 140 for basically the Aspect of God ( ie. council ) + armory all in 1 package.

get this thru ur head newbie eldars, COUNCIL IS A CROCK OF SHIT.

STFN, Vision, Me, Stratus, True, Blur, PuPz, Christovas all have played Eldar or are currently using it on ladder and all of them think Eldar is overpowered. This is not a case of "skilled players winning no matter what race". Alot of these players SWITCHED to eldar either get free wins or to prove a point.

[SubZero]

Well maybe, right....

Don't rush?

*problems solved*.

[Negator]

Don't rush? Wait to die? sounds like a plan....

What good does it do to you if you don't rush? The opponent is going to be coming to knock on your door and you need those resources out there to keep up the fight, huddling in your base thinking of happy thoughts is hardly going to make you win...

[Reborn]

Here are some other stats.

Number of Eldar player in top 5: 3.
Number of Eldar players in top 20: 9.

So much for Eldar being balanced :P

[Fenris-X2]

Maybe you should look at bliz's stats then. They look at race balance when theres a difference of less than 1%. 0.5% is enough for them to investigate.

What % do top players make up of the total game population?
about 1-2%. Even if all those top knew how to abuse Eldar and win nearly all the time, how much do you think they should change the global stats by? NOT A LOT. The newbies are still massing guardian squads and rangers without getting plasma or entangle and getting owned. I even lost my first 2 games as Eldar because I had thought rangers were a tact squad equivalent. but some ppl take alot longer to realise -_-;; and please look at Reborn's statement about your bs.

[XavionDeosXIV]

Well maybe, right....

Don't rush?

*problems solved*.
:Slap:
Your kidding right. U solve the balance problem in this game by simply asking people not to rush...
:yas:
When will u people realize that if theres a bug/imbalance/exploit in a multiplayer game people WILL find it and WILL abuse it. Period.

Ne1 who would even dream of expecting people to be honorable online is a fool or a moron. Which r u?

[sch!Zo]

Look closely at some replays .... I did so i think about 30 replays number increasing .... and most of the time I see a good elder player like blur or someone else they always Win with a FS,SC in Front .... It`s amazing how much damage this SC can take and if you try to mowe them down with Dreads or something equal they just get some Brightlances and tear your pretty machines appart .This is insane.

[ceejayoz]

These stats don't prove much since they include games vs cpu. Stats from only the 1v1 ladder would be more usefull. The game is fairly balanced, but elder do need some more tweaking imo. I'd imagine there's a fairly equal amount of vs. CPU games using the different races. It's not like every CPU player is automatically Eldar to make it look balanced.

[SvK]

Then explain how to counter this...
2 Full Ork Slugga Squads charging your base in the first 1min30secs.

Who reinforces Ork squads?

[Aimless]

The council would be way overpowered in any army other than eldar but within an eldar army it is the much needed meat shield to guard the glass-cannon army behind. Im not decided if it is overpowered or not. Maybe a lower limit on the number of warlocks or a slowre reinforce when above 9ish members would be better.

The fact that more than 1/4 of top players r eldar doesnt necessarily mean they are overpowered. More skilled microphile (my term :P) players from other games (WC3) may prefer eldar because they have more microing options.

[SubZero]

Who reinforces Ork squads?

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=39445

[Aimless]

spare me 'agreed no rush' and u expect us to read that crap? whats the relevence to reinforcing?

[SubZero]

spare me 'agreed no rush' and u expect us to read that crap? whats the relevence to reinforcing?

The Demo on that link shows an Ork Player reinforcing his Mobs to full...

[Fenris-X2]

"The fact that more than 1/4 of top players r eldar doesnt necessarily mean they are overpowered. More skilled microphile (my term :P) players from other games (WC3) may prefer eldar because they have more microing options."

Wrong, I've never lost to any of the top20 eldars in Eldar vs Eldar, I use the damn MOUSE to use all of the Eldar abilities except fleet of foot and my APM in war3 was 45-60. Eldar simply requires no skill and I'm sick of hearing about Eldar being good because the Eldar player's micro is good. It's complete bull, a Chaos or SM needs 2-3x the micro skill to even beat Eldar.

[sabyul]

Bonesong + Powerbuild turret = :D

[Fear]

fenris every word is a gold.

but im trully sick of those who still think SC is balanced.
and i get even more sicker seeing 3k posts about the same fact that SC isnt balanced and the same people arguing that they arent.

WELL NEWS FLASH they are for F*cking sake. stop arguing you are getting annoying.

[Doomhawk]

Who reinforces Ork squads?

Apparently, the same guy who can get a FC, 2 full SM squads, 2 full Scout squads, an Armory, and heavy weapons for the above squads, all in under 2 minutes.

[Folandil]

Instead of whining about how the SC are so "UBER OVERPOWERED BLAH THE WORLD MUST HEAR MY OPPIOION", try adding some positive feedback. I personally think that the SC is a !!!LITTLE!!! overpowered. Mainly cause of their moral being HUGE, and the fact that you can add a farseer into another hero unit. But then again the farseer is the only un/attachable unit (I think). Possibly I would suggest either shaving off 75-100 moral points then adding an upgrade in the shrine of souls to regain those moral points back. Its redicolous to see two heroes built early game IMO. Other then that, I agree that the eldar do need this unit. As there are not many melee intensive units in that race.

[Arcadies]

"The fact that more than 1/4 of top players r eldar doesnt necessarily mean they are overpowered. More skilled microphile (my term :P) players from other games (WC3) may prefer eldar because they have more microing options."

Wrong, I've never lost to any of the top20 eldars in Eldar vs Eldar, I use the damn MOUSE to use all of the Eldar abilities except fleet of foot and my APM in war3 was 45-60. Eldar simply requires no skill and I'm sick of hearing about Eldar being good because the Eldar player's micro is good. It's complete bull, a Chaos or SM needs 2-3x the micro skill to even beat Eldar.

Exactly Fenris, thats why those lame Eldar need to be removed from the game. We just need to keep showing them how overpowered the Eldar are. Keep up the good work man.

[Fear]

i think they should nerf SC and boost banshee.

[First And Only]

Eh? Why are people talking about the SC's morale? That's not the problem, it's the immunity to ranged damage. Do I have to post the replay where a max cap of fully reinforced SM squads unload on a 3 man, broken SC without a FS, which reinforces to full size while being shot at by all squads at once, killing all of the squads?

Conceal is messed up. The SC already begins with very high durability vs ranged attacks, conceal makes it overboard. Even if they weaken conceal, the boost in defense it gives the SC will still probably be overpowering so early in the game, thus I believe the conceal upgrade should firstly be fixed, and secondly the conceal upgrade should be available later in the tech tree.

[Deadeye]

I actually agree with that idea as a start to see how it changes things. Although I lean more towards fixing conceal for seer (i think the prob is it stacks cuz of warlocks) and making both conceal and SC available a little later. I just dont agree with letting one race have access to both their heros two minutes into the game. Theres something fundamentally wrong with that. And since Im on the subject...reducing it to 8 or 10 max members maybe.

[Aimless]

"The fact that more than 1/4 of top players r eldar doesnt necessarily mean they are overpowered. More skilled microphile (my term :P) players from other games (WC3) may prefer eldar because they have more microing options."

Wrong, I've never lost to any of the top20 eldars in Eldar vs Eldar, I use the damn MOUSE to use all of the Eldar abilities except fleet of foot and my APM in war3 was 45-60. Eldar simply requires no skill and I'm sick of hearing about Eldar being good because the Eldar player's micro is good. It's complete bull, a Chaos or SM needs 2-3x the micro skill to even beat Eldar.

So according to himself Fenris is the best eldar player there is. But his micro is supposedly bad because he uses the mouse and has a relatively low APM (right so APM=micro; maybe even APM=micro=skill=strategy? *sarchasm*)

'Eldar simply require no skill' well that statement so severely subjective that its meaningless unless he simply wants to diss the makers of the game

I do agree that with Fenris that a lot of micro is required to beat an eldar army with a SC. The SC is one of those units thats too tough to be focused on. You have to try and break it and then treat it as if its a dread but u dont have any anti-vehicle (not a nice thought i know) so try to tie it up in combat and focus on the rest of the eldar army as they will be doing most of the damage. Most ppl have a problem with a unit that powerful (balanced or unbalanced). Maybe relic will fix it in the next patch to stop the whining.

[Lodrin1]

Eh? Why are people talking about the SC's morale? That's not the problem, it's the immunity to ranged damage. Do I have to post the replay where a max cap of fully reinforced SM squads unload on a 3 man, broken SC without a FS, which reinforces to full size while being shot at by all squads at once, killing all of the squads?

Conceal is messed up. The SC already begins with very high durability vs ranged attacks, conceal makes it overboard. Even if they weaken conceal, the boost in defense it gives the SC will still probably be overpowering so early in the game, thus I believe the conceal upgrade should firstly be fixed, and secondly the conceal upgrade should be available later in the tech tree.

I think you are right about conceal. I just finished an SM vs Eldar fight where we were simultaneously trying to destroy each others bases. In response I built 3 heavy bolter turrets (i KNOW HB's are not the direct counter to heavy infantry but they should do some dmg JFC) guarding one of my listening points where my armory was, and had a squad with 4 flamers guarding them. Farseer plus SC came while I was almost done building the 4th turret.

I broke them in 3 seconds. The fight lasted for about 3 minutes, and this counts the 4th turret.

They ended up killing all 4 turrets while broken and about 7 of my marine squad. They reinforced faster then 4 turrets could chew at them.

That's pretty f'd up for a tier 1 squad. Without conceal it wouldn't have been as favorable.

SC deserves a slight nerfing, but I wouldn't do it without lowering aspect stone costs for banshees/darkreapers/warpspiders.

Pushing conceal to post mobilization for war is a decent idea. It's wrong to be both immune to tier 1 weapon dmg, and have the ability to push units back.

[Macharius]

Am I the only one who see's the purpose of the SC? They are the Eldar meatshield, they're the only unit that doesn't suffer the fragile nature of the rest of the Eldar Infantry. On StarCraft people moan and complained about the Zergling rush, I found a way to counter it in five minutes. So you get SC rushed, tie them up with your Force Commander and hit them with scouts with Sniper Rifles and Flamers, the FC is an amazingly resiliant leader who I have seen hold off two/three squads of Slugga Boyz. Tie them up, break them, then hit them with Assault Troops, Marines with Frag Grenades could cause a fair bit of havoc to. I don't know if its the best counter, but its the one i'd most likely use. Man, I have more trouble with five or six Bomb Chukkas, those things are EVIL.

Man up and stop complaining, bunch of little twelve year olds...

In the end, what i'm trying to say is, there is always a counter. Give it time, and a fair bit of though and it will come about.

[Sarx]

Actually not everyone plays Space Marine. Most of the strats in this forum go like "idiot - just build "insert random SM unit" "

So - if you happen to play a different race most of the tips in this forum are not very helpful :)

[Entropius]

Am I the only one who see's the purpose of the SC? They are the Eldar meatshield, they're the only unit that doesn't suffer the fragile nature of the rest of the Eldar Infantry. On StarCraft people moan and complained about the Zergling rush, I found a way to counter it in five minutes. So you get SC rushed, tie them up with your Force Commander and hit them with scouts with Sniper Rifles and Flamers, the FC is an amazingly resiliant leader who I have seen hold off two/three squads of Slugga Boyz. Tie them up, break them, then hit them with Assault Troops, Marines with Frag Grenades could cause a fair bit of havoc to. I don't know if its the best counter, but its the one i'd most likely use. Man, I have more trouble with five or six Bomb Chukkas, those things are EVIL.

Man up and stop complaining, bunch of little twelve year olds...

In the end, what i'm trying to say is, there is always a counter. Give it time, and a fair bit of though and it will come about.

Macharius, your use of the zergling rush as an example shows your ignorance of both Starcraft history and of logic.

(for non-Starcraft players: zerglings are fast, numerous, fragile melee units available to the Zerg race. They are available relatively early in the game, and -- because of the peculiarities of the Zerg build system -- you can build a burst of them as soon as the building that unlocks them finishes.)

You're citing the Zergling rush as an example of a strategy that many people complained about but could be successfully defended against using a little creativity in micromanagement and preparation. This is indeed an accurate description of the Zergling rush. You seem to think that, by extension, ALL strategies that people often complain about can be beaten with a little work on the part of the defender, in ANY game.

This does not follow.

There is a counterexample, indeed, from Starcraft.

Mutalisks are the basic Zerg flying unit. They were available relatively early in the game and, due to the Zerg build system, several could be built in a burst right after the building unlocking them was finished.

Starcraft has a damage-type system. "Explosive" is the damage type of almost all anti-air attacks. Units with the armor type "small" take half damage from explosive attacks, and Mutalisks are small.

In patch 1.02 and earlier, a Zerg player could make a minimal ground force to defend against a quick land attack and then tech straight for Mutalisks. Protoss' basic ground unit is melee-only and cannot attack air; Dragoons, at that point in SC history, weren't nearly as good as they are now. A later, larger land attack would be defeated by the first wave of Mutalisks that would hatch before said land attack did much damage.

A Protoss who attempted to defend against the Mutalisk attack could do so successfully--in one base. But since Explosive attacks only did half damage to mutalisks, it was quite difficult for the Protoss to muster enough firepower to beat them off, and since the best defenses were turrets, attempting to expand to new resource areas meant you had to build even more turrets.

Many detailed posts went up on the forums showing build times, how quickly a Zerg could put together a mutalisk force, and the sorts of defenses a Protoss could have in place by then. Lots of people agreed: Protoss have no effective defense.

Blizzard responded by changing the damage type of Protoss turrets to "normal" in the next patch, making them do full damage against mutalisks. They also increased the build time of the tech building required for mutalisks. This didn't significantly change the balance of anything else, but allowed Protoss enough breathing room to put together something that could fight the mutalisks and push out.

Imbalances DO happen in strategy games, and aren't just the result of whiners who get beaten by a given strategy. This is why we have patches. It took Blizzard many, many patches to Starcraft to get the balance down; Dawn of War will likely be no different.

[Reborn]

So you get SC rushed, tie them up with your Force Commander and hit them with scouts with Sniper Rifles and Flamers, the FC is an amazingly resiliant leader who I have seen hold off two/three squads of Slugga Boyz.

This will not work if the eldar player entangles the FC. As an eldar player, I was beated by this "strat" in my 3rd game or so, but it has not worked on me again. What I learned was to avoid melee with the FC, you keep him entangled while the SC runs to attack the other units. Even broken, the SC with conceal will kill the regular marines very fast with little or no loss. If an eldar player get a far seer, 3-4 guardian squads with entangle and conceal and a decent sized SC, then sm is in huge trouble. If the sm player hits the eldar player really early though, you have to avoid a full scale battle with him until you have a decent sized SC and conceal.

Maybe sm can try to mass assualt marines and jump the guardians. But just 1 assualt marine squad is not enough, becuase then you simly entangle that unit as well. So sm probably need almost as many assualt marine squads as the eldar player has guardian squads.

[SubZero]

so what is your ideas then?

-Relic nerf Conceal, allowing the mildly (i only see the 'top' players using it) used Seer Council ( i prefer the Tower Rush, IF i rush, rarely) to be easily defeated by a tactical squad or two?

-Relic remove the SC from the game. thus making the Eldar have Zero units able to take any punishment in the early game? (even the Farseer can be easily killed by one or two squad of marines)

-Relic make the SC more expensive/higher up in the tier system, thus making the SC inaccessible until later in the game (N.B, the game will not advance this far since the only tank choice is the SC, without the SC -IF- the enemy rushes, every single shot taken upon the Eldar will inflict alot of casualties)?

You see, any change to the SC results in Eldar player basically left with 3 choices of gameplay :
1 - QUIT
2 - Tower Rush
3 - Play 2vs, 3vs3, 4vs4..

The only feasible changes that i can fathom, revolve around firstly, determining what is the issue :
1 - Entangle?
2 - Conceal?
3 - SeerCouncil?
4 - Bonesingers?
5 - Fortune?

And then looking at the army as a whole. In order to weaken one area, one other area needs to be strengthened.
i.e, Banshees need greater armor and health/damage ; reduce the aspect stone cost for Banshees ; Make Banshees Heavy Infantry ; Make rangers do damage to health not just Morale...

that kinda stuff.

[Sarx]

Simply make the Seer Council weaker and upgradable with a new tech so he remains a viable option in mid-lategame (perhaps after mobilize to war)

Even with a weaker SC you are well set in earlygame. And mid-lategame you have your good old powerful SC.

They should change Possesseds too while they are at it. A Energy cost of 150 (now 100) should take care of too fast rushing (with starting energy + 1 generator you get exactly 100 energy so its no problem to build a PCSM vey early) while leaving the PCSM a valuable option. I - as a chaos player - would have no problem with it

[Reborn]

GroundZero I have posted my ideas many times. Move entangle to after mobilze for war and lower its duration on heroes and larger units by a lot. Look into why SC don't seem to take any range damage if they are like 8+ and have conceal. If conceal is buged, then fix it, if not then also move conceal to after mobilze for war or limit the size of SC.

With these changes banshees and ranger could be buffed. More damage to rangers and more armor/hp to banshees.

[Gnug315]

Good post, Enty.

[Reborn]

yeah, that was a nice post Entropius. I do think that dow is more balanced then star craft retail was though. Not bad, since star craft had one less race :)

Not sure how much the TT war40k game helped while balancing dow.

Edit: I changed my mind. Dow is about as unbalanced as sc/war3 first versions :/

[Sarx]

And then looking at the army as a whole. In order to weaken one area, one other area needs to be strengthened.
i.e, Banshees need greater armor and health/damage ; reduce the aspect stone cost for Banshees ; Make Banshees Heavy Infantry ; Make rangers do damage to health not just Morale...


But be careful not to even out the units to much. It may make balanced armies but also a boring game :)

[Macharius]

Indeed Entropius, a good post.
I played Toss and that was indeed the counter I used against any type of rush.
I concede that you are, and most likely always will be, the more knowledgable gamer.
Now onto the problem at hand, Banshees should be made tougher, either that or replace them with Striking Scorpions (I can't see why Relic chose Banshees over Striking Scorpions in the first place). Banshees are far to easily taken down, leaving the SC as the only effective Eldar meatshield. As far as Entangle goes, I have nothing to contribute.

[Entropius]

Eh, I know a bunch about Starcraft (I'm old), but not that much about DoW actually -- I mostly play 2v2 and higher, so I've never really seen the seer council in a vacuum like 1v1 players have.

My apologies for the flame-like post ... that was uncalled-for.

----> me:smash:

I think at the least conceal (and all other abilities, really, except movement ones) should be unavailable to broken squads.

The conceal bug (stacked conceal effects from each seer result in near-total invulnerability to shooting) needs to be fixed.


People have said that "SC is Eldar's only meatshield ... if they lose their durability, what will we do?" I don't think Eldar necessarily need a meatshield, *especially* if Howling Banshees get a boost -- they may be fragile, but they'll let Eldar make assaults by crossing the no-man's-land quickly. Beyond that, Eldar aren't (according to the fluff) designed to wade through large volumes of fire with infantry. It seems that the DoW Eldar don't necessarily need this ability either.

Unfortunately, if you make the seer council into a glass cannon (sufficient nerfage of durability to stop the early rush), they'll be nigh-useless on the battlefield later on, as they'll get spammed on by small-arms fire and torn to shreds. Hero units tend to retreat from battles rather than being shredded; likewise, the seer council shouldn't have to be rebuilt after every battle.

I think the correct avenue of attack is to increase how much fighting ability (durability, specifically) they lose when they're broken, either by cutting conceal off, making them lose access to their knockback psionic attack, or making them take extra melee damage while broken. This will still let them lead an attack for a while, but not let them "tank" for an extended period of time (like they do in the stereotypical SC rush.)

[Macharius]

The flame-like nature of your post did not bother me, if you check my post you can see I made several inflammatory statements. All you where doing was retalliating on behalf of the community, but, apology accepted.

That is all fine and good Entropius, but Eldar players still need a unit that can stand its own in close combat without being mowed down. CSM Possessed Squads are a fine example of a close combat unit that gets the job done, but is not without faults. The fluff states that Eldar are a specialist army, rite now Banshees aren't making the best of there specialty. I beleive that boosting the Banshees up somewhat while downsizing the SC in some minute way could fix this problem. Please, correct my mistakes because my online experiance with this game is extremely limited.

[tehhelios]

Maybe just weaken the damage the fs and warlocks do.
This game is verry similar to the tabletop game and in there they are able to take more damage than pretty much any other unit but with the lack of damage against regular units they dont domminate the battlefield. (they had good damage against vechiles but not troops)

Im playing chaos even if some other race is the best at the moment, if there is a imbalance i hope Relic will fix it.

[scott2978]

I've made a mod to address this question. In it I've addressed what many of you have called the one single most broken thing in the game, the Seer Council Rush. The Tack I've taken with it is that it's not the Seer Council itself that's broken, but the Conceal ability. So, I've made Conceal cost 200 power and 200 requisition. I've also added 20% to all turret and listening post hit points to help deter rush tactics. So if this sounds like something you'd like, send me an email and I'll send you the mod. One word of caution though, don't try playing any mods in multiplayer vs unmodded oponents - you'll be kicked and record a loss in your stats. My email is scott2978@yahoo.com. Get the mod, try it out, and let me know if it solves the problem for you or not. Thanks!

[Spiral]

Ground zero is so incredibly biased.... just listen to him defend the cheese

[TerminatorDave]

My friend is an Eldar player, and I've played many games against him - he's quite good as well. In my opinion, Eldar are a bit overpowered, mainly due to 3 points:

1) Seer Council - needs no explanation because its been done to death.

2) D Cannons - Ever try to attack a couple of these things with squads of Assault Marines? These guys should have some of the highest morale in the game, but D Cannons strip them down VERY quickly. Add to that the fact that troops are mostly on their ass when attacking them, and they are more effective against infantry than the scatter lasers in certain conditions.

3) Avatar is practically free - When the Avatar is built, it increases the infantry allotment - up to a maximum of 30 with all upgrades I believe. Later in the game, when resources are less of a problem, infantry and vehicle limitations are important. With the Eldar getting the Avatar without needing to spend any points on it, this is a bit unbalanced, considering it's debatably the best 'uber unit'. Space Marines and Orks need to spend 5 vehicle points on Land Raider or Squiggoth and Chaos need to sacrifice a Sergeant or Hero for the Bloodthirster (which could be considered weaker than the Avatar).

Do something about these points and I think Eldar won't be quite so unbalanced.
However, there are other things that should be done, such as reducing Defiler unit requirements to 2 rather than 3, etc.

[ÜberJumper]

Seer Council is bugged, confirmed by Relic, old news, wait for patch.