For those who think flamers will work vs Pro Eldar, please watch this replay :(

[Fenris-X2]

Map: Meeting of Minds
Players: Fenris vs FC|Silencio
Type: Eldar abuse
Winning Conditions:Picking Eldar
Winning Condition Triggered: Picked Eldar
Duration: When my council and entangle was ready
Description of Battle: a slaughter with minimal casualities while broken :[


I lost my FS like a noob, but who cares? its not like its possible to lose vs SM. Watch as my broken seers still win the game for me easily while his units are helpless.

I didn't even try very hard and I feel sorry for the guy cause I know how it feels to play SM or Chaos vs an Eldar

All you need to do with broken seers is keep them away from the FC, thats it. Entangle, switch to range mode, blast the FC to hell with range attack from seers. Easiest thing in the world. They still won't die to marines when broken, only the FC but only if you are newbie enough to send seers into melee against FC while broken.

[SubZero]

Its interesting how because you are considered numerically high ranking, you believe your words should be the be-all-end-all.

Eldar are a fun race, balanced with Seer Council.

When i fight Marines and do 'SC Rush' i lose my Conceal enhanced Fortune Enhanced squad of 5 and am forced to invest ALL my points in them to Several Frag Grenades and several Heavy Bolters.
Likewise while this is happening the Marine player is capturing all the map, allowing him to use those units to keep me held up, using my own limited REQ, focussing his resources on upgrading to Dreadnoughts asap, which he does.

Also, versus Orks, 2 Slugga Boyz squads by themselves killed a 5-strong SC with Farseer in my own base whilst the Big Mek teleported out of Entanglement.

I think you should focus your energies onto something more productive, like some real imbalances - Reapers mow down Marines easily, yet 2 Squads of reapers cannot kill 1 Scout, the Scout actually kills the Reapers...

[Reborn]

Keep up the good work Fenris. I wonder if Relic is reading all this though. The game should be balanced for pro games, not noob games, so the opinions of the top ranked players should be important. I like this game, but it will die if it turns into "dawn of eldar". 3 out of 5 players in the top 5 are currently eldar, and if nothing is done, i bet it will be even worse soon.

[Fenris-X2]

"Its interesting how because you are considered numerically high ranking, you believe your words should be the be-all-end-all."

it's also interesting that i have the support of every single eldar in the top10 and practically every single high ranked player. and by "numerically" high ranking you are implying as if those numbers don't mean much. i'm sure it'd be interesting for people here to watch me kick your ass in under 10minutes losing practically 0 units with Eldar. wouldn't u think so to? personally i think that'd be more interesting than your eldar abusing nonsense.

"I think you should focus your energies onto something more productive, like some real imbalances - Reapers mow down Marines easily, yet 2 Squads of reapers cannot kill 1 Scout, the Scout actually kills the Reapers..."

So now you are saying that scouts, which have light armor and bolters designed to kill light infantry shouldn't counter reapers which are designed to kill heavy infantry and have light armorr. It might also be of interest to you then mr.newbie Eldar, that guardians will also badly own reapers with plasma and regular attacks. how about we nerf guardians some more?. No? THEN :stfu: :yas: with your ridiculous bs. Also theres an upgrade called fastshot which improves damage vs light, maybe if you didn't spend all day abusing seers incorreclty you'd know about it.

I'm sorry you don't get 2 infantry units which counter everything in the game, you know some races don't even get 1 :(

[Kasrkin]

fenris...you won the ladder right? but the relic guy beat you right? what side was he and what side was you and did you meantion the SC??? :)

[J23]

I would like to award Fenris two extra points for creative use of smilies in his last post. :p

[Fenris-X2]

he was SM and Ork, but he knew my race from the start giving a scout harass advantage which you can't really do vs other races and also i had made my own promise not to use conceal so my council ended up slowly being worn by by range fire. going all out abuse with eldar, i doubt i would have gone down like that.

[Mister Sleep]

I don't see how people can watch replays like that and not see it as being imbalanced.

[SubZero]

it's also interesting that i have the support of every single eldar in the top10 and practically every single high ranked player. and by "numerically" high ranking you are implying as if those numbers don't mean much. i'm sure it'd be interesting for people here to watch me kick your ass in under 10minutes losing practically 0 units with Eldar. wouldn't u think so to? personally i think that'd be more interesting than your eldar abusing nonsense.

"I think you should focus your energies onto something more productive, like some real imbalances - Reapers mow down Marines easily, yet 2 Squads of reapers cannot kill 1 Scout, the Scout actually kills the Reapers..."

So now you are saying that scouts, which have light armor and bolters designed to kill light infantry shouldn't counter reapers which are designed to kill heavy infantry and have light armorr. It might also be of interest to you then mr.newbie Eldar, that guardians will also badly own reapers with plasma and regular attacks. how about we nerf guardians some more?. No? THEN :stfu: :yas: with your ridiculous bs. Also theres an upgrade called fastshot which improves damage vs light, maybe if you didn't spend all day abusing seers incorreclty you'd know about it.

I'm sorry you don't get 2 infantry units which counter everything in the game, you know some races don't even get 1 :(

1. 2 Squads of Reapers were fully upgraded, Exarch, 5 squad members, all researched, optics researched etc, vs 2 Scouts with bolters. The combined firepower of all 10-12 reapers barely budged the Scouts health for over 1 minute. In that one minute the scout squad had added 2 more members and had killed 2 reapers ranged attack.

2. Support of all the high eldar players and top10 players - who cares? everyone is equal and the person with rank1000000 is just as useful and entitled to his views as the person at Number1.
Its often questionable that these high ranking players get to this rank via dirty methods, such as if the SC was overpowered, then cry for it to be nerfed to make themself look good and earn 'respect'.

3. Many battles past Tier3 with surplus of Resources that i have fought had the SC+FS playing a crucial role in the battle in charging first, then the Avatar then my troops. The SC did fall, under several Assault cannons, heavy bolters and Terminators in Melee.

4. You just keep looking at this view with your overambitious glasses that nullify the peripheral vision, see only what you want to see, and try to be a Martyr for the 'people'.

[Darkweaver2]

2. Support of all the high eldar players and top10 players - who cares? everyone is equal and the person with rank1000000 is
just as useful and entitled to his views as the person at Number1.

Not nearly as useful. If you're not good you're certainly entitled to bullshit about balance but not entitled to have anyone pay any attention to you, or be right. You, judging from you posts, are a newbie. So, that's why you're either getting 1) ignored or 2) flamed when you share those opinions of yours that you're certainly entitled to.

[SubZero]

Well its all fine you saying that but quite frankly, there are alot of decent Eldar players who are mature enough not to respond to these posts, who actually talk on the Eldar forums about how they are disgusted at you guys.

I post here, for a reaction yes, but also to get the underlying reasons why you all gang up like this.

Narrowed it down to any/all of these :
1) Getting beaten by Eldar
2) Sucking up to the big Ranks
3) Your inability to play vs Eldar

All in all, anything said on these forums are just words, and until something actually happens ingame by Relic, then that will warrant discussion.

Obviously, the Human Race is never satisfied and as a Social/Cultural requirement, strives for some flaw or thing to complain about.

You complain about Eldar SC, we complain about you. Its a vicious circle and it achieves nothing apart from showing that you are childish and always want your own way and throw massive fits and search out enemies who you could pull of some amazing feat to 'prove your points', and shows that the Eldar players are either totally sick of your incessent whining or verbally defend, against the *slurp* High Ranks.

[Jack9]

You deserved to win that one Fenris. The micro was terrible, not overly SC imba.

Timestamp: 5:10
1 scout (rifle) + 2 tac marine squads firing bolters into an SC with flamer support while the FC is CC SC. That doesnt hurt heavy infantry and was a waste of time. He should have started targetting the guardian squads to the 6oclock+ 7oclock + 4oclock of him POURING fire into his ranks. Fenris pushes his broken seers into CC with the marines, perhaps inadvertently which (with forcepush and FS) nuetralizes them for almost 7 seconds.

This is standard fare and illustrates the most broken thing about seers. Each individual SC has an autocasting reusable infinite frag grenade even when broken.

With the large marine force now on the ground, guess what happens. Marines start dying.

Timestamp: 5:28
1 scout + 1 tac STILL firing at the SC to what end? Flamers do massive morale damage to units in cover, but not DAMAGE to HvyInfantry...that's what plasma is for. Bolters do reduced damage to hvy infantry and reduced damage to units in cover meaning the SC werent even being scratched by anything but the FC. I hope silencio can actually tell what happened...all the guardians (Still alive) turned and shot at the FC (in the same cover as the SC and when that didnt do anything Fenris made a change.

Timestamp: 5:38
Fenris retreats 3oclock guardian squad to possibly repop. The 7oclock turns on the depleted marines and the 6oclock squad is broken through ancillary flamethrower and sniping (too late) from earlier and would have been a good candidate to take up where the SC was fighting in the crater cover for a flank. The 3 oclock squad which is not broken actually does flank the scouts. The FC is running away leading the SC to step up to the depleted marines and scouts. A smart guy might have upped his tower and run his marines (and scouts) into a more spread out defensive position near it but instead they all stand and die. The marines in CC with SC cannot do anything. The scouts being flanked have almost finished annihilating the 6oclock guardians when they start retargetting the running SC (why?). The SC move to stop the surviving 2 tac marines from leaving safely and the FC moves to finish the 5 guardians at 6o/7o.

Timestamp: 5:52
The guardians have no want to CC an FC so they start running. The scouts start running toward the SC and the 2 tac marines start running anywhere the SC isnt eventually targetting the flanking guardians who are regrouping with the rest toward the critical point (those generate +6 req when you cap them y'know).

Timestamp: 5:59
SC forcepushes the whole marine squad to the ground and the guardians all fire into them. They run and lose 1 (lucky). If the SC had stayed they would have lost 2 and maybe the FC.

Timestamp: 6:15
Everyone falls back.

The idea that flamers dont work vs SC is ridiculous, OF COURSE THEY DONT. It's plasma v HvyInf. Flamers break squads, that doesnt mean "you win" but that you have to capitalize on it. I contend that you put the scouts on 3o, you versatile all your marines, you cc the 1 tac with guardians 6o/7o and the other tac on the 3o, you woulda ended up with a marine push instead of a marine economic loss. The FC held the SC most of the battle. If Fenris had had entangle, it would have shown that SM have no chance.

PING/Performance/Split-second-micro matters in this game ppl...maybe not so much for orc, but again, you dont see a lot of dynamic orc battles.

Issues/Fixes:

1. SC forcepush. Make it an activated ability/spell with recharge (for a 10 sec duration, they get to use it).

X. Entangle. Give it to guardian squads with exarchs (make em worth it) which would balance the cost. (Edit: oops that's how it already is, which means no complaints here)

[SubZero]

Guardian Squads with Exarchs 0_o

Guardians squads have Warlock 'exarch' (leader) which has it already lol

[Guillaume777]

1. 2 Squads of Reapers were fully upgraded, Exarch, 5 squad members, all researched, optics researched etc, vs 2 Scouts with bolters. The combined firepower of all 10-12 reapers barely budged the Scouts health for over 1 minute. In that one minute the scout squad had added 2 more members and had killed 2 reapers ranged attack.


What is wrong with that ? Eldar units are extremely specialized so reaper don't do anything to infantry. Try using Warp Spiders against scouts and tell me the Eldar is too weak.

Beside the reapers should melee the scouts if they want to do damage.

[Jack9]

Guardian Squads with Exarchs 0_o

Guardians squads have Warlock 'exarch' (leader) which has it already lol

I was not aware only warlock (guardian exarch/sergeant) could cast entangle...seems fine then. Just the SC force push :p

[SubZero]

Beside the reapers should melee the scouts if they want to do damage.

I realised that now :P

Shame tho, the Bonesingers do more damage than the reapers in melee -_-

[Lonewolf64]

I play a lot of Eldar and am certainly not a newb...I have only 2 losses and 50+ wins (but I was in the beta...) and I have noticed that DoW is very balanced overall. The only thing about the eldar that I see complaints about are the SC and I can say that this problem isn't worse than the terminator problem in the beta. Terminators were as good compared to other relic units in beta and now they have been changed for the better. Terminators were still very useful but just weren't as good as other relic units.The SC has the same problem but just in the other direction...they might be a little too good but it isn't anything that is horribly wrong with the game and makes it unplayable and impossible to win against the eldar. It is not so hard to beat them with CC dread with snipers or flamer support to break them. Even with witchblades the SC will usually lose to a dread (more so if they are broken). While the game is like this, just keep on playing and make it a goal to find ways of countering the SC. Remember they are very expensive to have especially early on!!

[Triz]

Fenris you have like NO comment-tolerance do you? Ground-Zero gives some comments (good ones i might add, nothing aggressive) and you flame him to the ground for opposing your views. Come up with some viable comments instead of just 'me l33t you n00b'.

[Fenris-X2]

:stfu:

thank you

His comments are retarded, hello? someone rank 1000000's balance opinion is equal to a top player's.

MAYBE IN FAIRY LAND

The unit which the weapon designed to kill light armor and armor designed to resist against Reaper's attack should still lose to reapers, because thats the Eldar racial identity. To be overpowered in everyway. Retarded comment? yes

I have no time for morons anymore, it's been that way since Beta. If you don't like it, prove me wrong otherwise just :stfu: and listen to people who are better than you for once.

[fgStratus]

True, Ground-Zero gives constructive comments to back up his arguments.

But, Fenris posts replays demonstrating his arguments.

Which do you think carries more weight?

[Kasrkin]

the replays...i belive what i see with my own eyes, not what i read :)

[Nillsens]

The other night me and a friend were testing out some of the units. Obviously, Seer Council had it's turn.

I can say, without a shadow of doubt, that there is no unit that can stop them (maybe a thirster or the avvy, they were not used). They make short work of tanks, dreadnoughts, termies, FC's, PSM's...

Looking at replays they do last ludicrously long, even under SERIOUSLY heavy fire.

I wouldn't mind seeing their squad cap go down a bit, and it certainly wouldn't hurt to make them a bit less tough (they should keep their damage though, IMO).

In return, maybe they could shorten the setup on the Dark Reapers? I hate their setup.

Just my two cents...

[DaSmurF]

[QUOTE=GroundZero]3. Many battles past Tier3 with surplus of Resources that i have fought had the SC+FS playing a crucial role in the battle in charging first, then the Avatar then my troops. The SC did fall, under several Assault cannons, heavy bolters and Terminators in Melee.

And Fenris wins! GZ, if CS is used correctly, the opposer wouldn't even get to tier 3. That's the problem!

[Kasrkin]

yea thats true...games are normally decided quickly in competative 1v1...its rare that you get to tier 3 in competative gameing :/

[Triz]

Fenris it's not ABOUT the game. I'm sure you are right with experience and all, its about some damn decency towards other people.

[Fenris-X2]

then those people should shown some deceny too instead of calling people whiners when they make a legit statement. but instead they always say " oh u just dont know how to play, use plasma newb etc ". As I said, you find me a post where I flame people without them implying anyone who complains about eldar is a newb.

lots of ppl know me to be a decent and helpful player. if i wasn't, i wouldn't have any support would i?. they are allowed to say eldar complainers are newb, but im not allowed to say it back even though im the one whos right. thats a pretty stupid double standard.

[OjKa]

Can't blame Fenris for being annoyed at people's comments, i sure hell have. And fen that Grimskul of yours has very nice ork, had a very gg with him :)

[Triz]

It started with Ground-Zero coming up with arguments against your opinions, and then you flamed him. You could've just gone into a discussion with him without calling him names and waving stupid smileysigns around.

[Fenris-X2]

Triz, you obviously don't get it...

LOOK AT HIS SIGNATURE FFS

In every single post he makes he is implying everyone else basically sux because they think Eldar is overpowered. You could do with getting a clue as well before you open your mouth to criticize me.

[SubZero]

Triz, you obviously don't get it...

LOOK AT HIS SIGNATURE FFS

In every single post he makes he is implying everyone else basically sux because they think Eldar is overpowered. Hell, I'll make a new sig then.

If you are such a good player then you will knuckle down and figure out a way to stop it.
Instead, you just chose to whine on the boards. Infact, i reckon over 99% of your posts over the past week are about the Seer Council.

[Fenris-X2]

I obviously have found ways to beat most of the newb eldar abusers otherwise I wouldn't be top10 with chaos now would I?

But when I'm the one using Eldar I know its not going to be beaten by SM/Chaos unless I seriously screw up and some Eldar's have beaten me when I was using Chaos who I easily beat in Eldar vs Eldar. It's just lame how easy it is to win.

Every chaos strat I've come up with to beat an Eldar, even if I win with it I know I could beat it easily myself if I was using Eldar to play against my own chaos.

I have experience from playing all 4 races, whereas you are to blinded and biased by playing Eldar only.

[SubZero]

Maybe that shows that you are a good player with Eldar then ?!?!?

Just like in CounterStrike, if you go against the once great, 4Kings, you will guarantee that you will be dead to a headshot in 15seconds after starting.

In DoW if you play against some of the best/skilled/tactically minded then you will obviously lose if your tactics aren't perfect.

So how about it? They are not overpowered, your tactics are :P

[Fenris-X2]

No, I'm a good player in general. Not great but good enough, there are some people who play DOW who owned me in SC/War3, they will probably do so once they get the hang of DOW.

It's the tools a player has to work with. At the moment playing Eldar vs Chaos/SM is like to give a counter strike example forcing the terrorists to only be able to use knifes and pistols. Sure if they are wayyyyy better than you they can headshot you with a pistol, but is it really fair ?

[fgStratus]

Groundzero, if you have any suggestions on how to beat the SC as SM/Orks/Chaos, I'm more than willing to try them against Fenris and post up a replay.

And if you're not happy with my micro or grasp of tactics (which I admit are far from perfect), then you can play him yourself.

I think it's great that you take the time to post your thoughtful commentary on the SC balance issue (No sarcasm intended). But game balance is something more easily shown than described, and I think we'd all understand your points better if you could post some replays for us, demonstrating why you think SC is not overpowered.

[SubZero]

Ill go look into the other races then, which will be of course, Map dependant.

Out of Interest, do Insane AI Eldar use the SC Rush :P ?

[Kasrkin]

pffft... insane comps are rubbish :( all you have to do is micro a little and flame them to death and they wont come near you...(cos they run away)

[Negator]

GroundZero, what if 4Kings and other top clans would have said ak47 is unbalanced, that it's too accurate on autofire or something? They are the best there is and push the game to the edge taking out all they can from it, so they KNOW it troughout, then you could have n+1 random casual gamers who would say "I think it's just fine, I can win against it", but could they win against 4Kings with ak47s? No they could not because 4Kings would know exactly how to get everything out of the unbalanced weapon and win constantly by using it.
The thing is same here, the top players are saying that eldar is unbalanced by counsil and entangle, people should listen to them because they are on the top, you know why? Not because they have fancy numbers behind their name in a ladder but because they are VERY GOOD and KNOW how to take everything out of the game, which has given them a very good insight on what in the game beats other things. Now they have seen that counsil and entangle beat other things a bit too good, because they have played it and played against it.
N+1 random players are of course allowed to have their opinions but they simply don't know better, that's why experienced player's word carries more weight. If you still don't believe, play against them, should be an enlightening experience.

P.S. Added some replays that show the difference of "I can beat eldar SC rush" and how different it is with a good player playing eldar, the difference between the games is rather clear. Also notice how efficient the eldar is even when played poorly (I do make some microing mistakes which can be easily seen in the replay but was able to pull them off.)

[Triz]

I think its a bit too early to start saying this or that doesnt work yet. I mean its only been out.. 2 weeks? Even if you're generally really good in other RTS it'll take you a while to figure everything out. So yeah their opinions weigh heavier then others, but even they can still learn about this game. Counter-strike has been here for what.. 4/5 years? So that has been much more played.

[PuK]

i think the point alot of people like groundzero are missing isnt the fact we are saying the SC are too uber... its simply that you can have them within 2 minutes of the game & they can not be countered at that time.

@groundzero... if you dont have any suggestions of a 3mins max counter to SC, FS & 2 guardian squads with engtangle your wasting your time posting here. your opinion means very little (no disrespect ment).... replays & facts are whats important.

the devs really need to get this patched soon (even tho this SC imbalance has been around since beta) or let this problem kill an otherwise great game within the first couple months of release.

[Negator]

Triz the game was on beta for a good time and same problems with eldar were complained there, it's not just 2 weeks, it's more like the beta players were devastated that the problems still are there after all the complaints about them in beta.

[silencio]

I'm one of the "whingers" about Eldar (not just the Seer Council, I think that just looking at the Seer Council is shortsighted when it comes to Eldar balance). I don't have a problem with losing - I've lost to Fenris before when he's used chaos, he's a better player than I am right now.

The trouble at the moment is that in a match involving any race other than Eldar, I feel that I can win or lose depending on me playing well/them playing well. If I play against an Eldar player, I feel that I only win if they play badly. If I use them I feel that I will only lose if I play badly. That's not a whole lot of fun. What I find most ridiculous is that I probably have more chance of beating Fenris (if he uses marines) if I use Eldar than I do if I use marines, despite the fact i've played less than 20 games with eldar and have been using marines since the start of the closed beta.

FG_Stratus' replay in which he beat a half decent SC rusher shows that he's much better with marines than I am - and yet he still says he can't beat a really good eldar player.

I don't have any real ego when it comes to this. I'll be quite happy if it turns out that everyone who plays marines/chaos/orks just happens to suck, and 80% of people who play eldar just happen to be amazing, we're just getting the opening stages all wrong. I'd love it if someone can post up a reliable way of coming out of the first 5 minutes against a good eldar player without being in a terminal downward spiral. Until they do though, I think i'm going to remain sceptical about the balance.

[Reborn]

Well said silencio :)

I have only used eldar in my last 10 games, and vs none eldar, I do feel like the only way to loose is if I mess up. In one of my last games vs a sm player, I really messed up my start (had to help my gf with a spider :) and he played pretty well, so it looked really bad for a while, but once I got my SC large enough, entagle and conceal, I killed his much larger force so he cursed at me and the game, then quited. I can uderstand how frustrating it must be to see your FC entangled the whole battle while the SC kills of the other troops.

[SubZero]

I tried several early strategies, here are some.

Marines - Build as you would, 2 Tactical 1 FC, and send the scouts persistently capturing points with a servitor behind them. Flamers are the only useful thing you have against the SC at Tier 1.
Infact, HeavyBolters are outperformed by Bolter Rifles in the 3 tests i did vs SC.
Static Listening Post defenses seem to damage the SC very well too.

Also, Assault Marines keep the SC occupied whilst taking slightly less damage, and inflicting more whilst your tacticals can pepper them.


Orks - Slugga Boyz with an overwatch group of 10, backed up, if you wish, with a Shoota Squad along with a Big Mek in the Shoota Squad.
The Sluggaz really do severely punish the SC without any upgrades, especially moreso if upgraded with Pile of Gunz.


Chaos - Simply surround the SC with Marines, and keep them occupied with Cultists. Upgrade the Marines with a flamer or two.

It all depends on the management behind the squad also, and on the map.

[JackieO]

I want to start by saying that I have posted before that I think the SC are not unbalanced. I wouldn't mind if they were changed but Eldar in general would need some tweaks for the early game if they were.

But I have to respond to your SM strategy, since I don't think it works. You say:


I tried several early strategies, here are some.

Marines - Build as you would, 2 Tactical 1 FC, and send the scouts persistently capturing points with a servitor behind them. Flamers are the only useful thing you have against the SC at Tier 1.
Infact, HeavyBolters are outperformed by Bolter Rifles in the 3 tests i did vs SC.
Static Listening Post defenses seem to damage the SC very well too.

I agree with flamers, however I think that against a good SC player you will not have 2 tac squads and an FC by the time at least a FS and 5-6 SC guys come rushing at you. You *might* have 1 5 or 6 member tac squad and a FC with 2 or 3 scout squads (unupgraded), but you won't have flamers by then and you won't have that second tac squad (and it wouldn't even matter if it was 4 man with no flamers). Even dancing they will eventually beat you using entangle and they will be pumping out SC members faster than you can kill them. I've only played what I would consider really good SC players 3 times, and in all 3 games watching the playback they had their SC out @~2 minutes. I can not have an upgraded marine squad and a FC with flamers @2 minutes.

I agree with the scout harrassment, but again a good player will just use his guardians to deal with them and beat on you with his SC.



Also, Assault Marines keep the SC occupied whilst taking slightly less damage, and inflicting more whilst your tacticals can pepper them.


This is true, but they will get decimated (which is fine) and won't really put that much of a dent in the SC. The problem as SM is you just need to slow down the SC while you can get a dread (and by then a good eldar player will have a brightlance), you are pretty much not going to kill them with infantry unless the Eldar player isn't very good.

[BFeeder]

This is a strange one...

Solving the problem would depend on the skill of the player(s), possibly the map and the side the eldar player is playing against so its not simply going to go away.

But by preventing the SC from being built early-game the eldar are a bit weak, and everyone knows they aren't as effective mid/end game (unless they know what they are doing).

But by keeping them in...


Its strange that very minimal suggestions about what should be done to balance them have been made, you make your complaint, justify it, then u should suggest what should change.

Up to now we've also had a heated argument about why n00bs opinions shouldn't count, i disagree, because just like if there were no evil there would be no good, if there were no n00bs there would be no great players, yes granted the pros can have higher rated opinions but thats no reason to ignore the ones lower down the chain. Its not like the pro's make up the majority of any game, it should be what the majority want (uninfluenced by the ones higher up of course). But i agree in this case and the majority agree that they are a little too overpowered when placed in the hands of a pro.

And to those planning on doing it to me, i denounce you on your lack of honor. Yes it is a valid tactic (for now) but SC rushing doesn't require a massive amount of skill (to an extent) and doesn't prove too much either. Being able to adapt during a battle does prove skill and fighting to the end even when losing (which i actually do, like when a 3vs3 turns into a 3vs1 in the enemies favour) i guess proves honor.

(Oh and please don't slate me because of my ethics) :D

[SubZero]

I think to be honest, the players need to be more worried of that Tower Rush.
Like the one i did vs your Brother BFeeder :P

[TheGrog]

Here's a question. Is it possible to deny them a SC by contesting the relic they need? No relic, No SC, No problem. I just don't know if it's viable to go contest that relic. On the other hand, you KNOW you can't take the SC, so even a chance at winning by taking the relic away from them might work.

Also, might it be possible to use assault marines to jump on the BL platforms while Dreads take on everything else?

[BFeeder]

I think to be honest, the players need to be more worried of that Tower Rush.
Like the one i did vs your Brother BFeeder :P

true, but you might prepare for the tower rush and get the SC rush or might prepare for the SC rush and get a tower rush, its a bit of luck thrown into the mix.

And i've yet to play you ;)

[TheGrog]

BFeeder, no it's not about what the majority wants. All games, be it RTS, CCG, or TT minis that lacked balanced high-level competitive play failed. The lower levels of play need to be balanced, but so do the higher ones or else many of the lower skill players will feel no reason to compete. If Eldar usually win, and you don't want to play Eldar, you won't play.

[SubZero]

Here's a question. Is it possible to deny them a SC by contesting the relic they need? No relic, No SC, No problem. I just don't know if it's viable to go contest that relic. On the other hand, you KNOW you can't take the SC, so even a chance at winning by taking the relic away from them might work.

Also, might it be possible to use assault marines to jump on the BL platforms while Dreads take on everything else?

Relic is not needed for the Seer Council. it just enables the Eldar to build an Avatar when they have researched every Aspect.

[BFeeder]

BFeeder, no it's not about what the majority wants. All games, be it RTS, CCG, or TT minis that lacked balanced high-level competitive play failed. The lower levels of play need to be balanced, but so do the higher ones or else many of the lower skill players will feel no reason to compete. If Eldar usually win, and you don't want to play Eldar, you won't play.

Yes so its up to the vigilance of the players and their ability to compromise, which is why sometimes its better to play people you know and so can agree on what to do and not do, rather than play people you don't know and so can't wholly trust. Yes there are exceptions to this rule but i've had compstomps with GroundZero many times and i'm pretty sure if we actually have a 1vs1 and i ask him not to SC/tower rush he will respect the agreement.

Lets just be hopeful that this game doesnt go the way of zero hour and its infamous scud bug, but with a company like relic making such a game i'm sure it won't.

[JackieO]

If the SC needed a relic it would completely nerf them - you could easily contest a relic on almost any map (except maybe mortalis or something), and in some maps there is only one relic. I don't think the SC need to be nerfed or moved to tier two or anything, I think there should be a reasonble counter to them that a skilled player playing SM, Ork, and Chaos could do. I don't mean a single SC killing unit, but a set of of units, upgrades, etc... that will at least give the opposing force a chance. 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 it's not really an issue, but 1v1 there isn't a lot the Orks/Chaos/SM can do against a good SC rush.

[silencio]

1) I disagree that the eldar would become useless if the SC was not available so early. I think the eldar have a lot of tools at their disposal (cheap LPs, FoF, plasma grenades, wraithtomb etc.) from very early on in the game.

2) I think that the Seer Council should require either Mobilise for War research, or should take longer to build/reinforce, or cost more requisition and power.

3) I think that, especially early on in the life of a game, skilled players' opinions should be respected more than less skilled players. Strategies filter down very quickly, and what "skilled" players are doing now, a vast number of people will be doing in the near future.

[fgStratus]

My biggest problem against SC isn't their resilience- I can play around that;
it's their constant force-push attacks that knock all my marines down.

If I break them, they do like 5 damage per attack and (seem to) take more damage from my attacks. But they still keep pushing all my units down. If there aren't any guardian squads to support them, I can eventually beat them out just because my units are still doing more damage to the SC than the SC is doing to my units. But a good Eldar player will support his SC with 3-4 guardian squads. Those guardian squads use plasma nades (which take out 1/3 of a marine's health) whenever the warlocks aren't force-pushing, and entangles on my hero. And the constant fire from the guardian squads is what does all the damage.

I've tried using a force commander, 2 tac squads w/ heavy bolters, and 3 scout squads w/ flamers against a SC and 4 guardian squads. I broke the council with my flamers, had my tac squads shooting the guardians with heavy bolters, and my force commander taking on the council. I also used grenades on the council to stun them whenever they got packed around one of my units, and I used the attach-trick to free my commander whenever he got entangled.

And my guys still died.
The reason? The Council would knock down most of my army everytime a warlock used the force-push attack, so my marines were shooting ~66% of the time. My marines ended up dropping quickly to plasma nades and concentrated guardian firepower, and without any squads to support him, my FC was entangle-raped. The replay was posted by Fenris in his Stratus vs Fenris thread (I think it's the second one.)

Now, I realize that the Eldar players need the council to compete with the other sides, because the council is their only meatshield. But if we fix the council by increasing the recharge timer on its force-push ability, and/or disabling the force-push whenever the council is broken, the Eldar will still have their meatshield, but it'll no longer single-handedly reduce the other army's efficiency by a third.
I'd even be happy if the force push ability was kept as is, but completely disabled whenever the Council is broken (after all, they do remark, "I have lost my concentration!!11one"). That makes the Council serve more of a shock-troop role later in the game, one that runs in to make a great impact, then runs out before its morale depletes. But early in the game, a broken Council can still function as a meatshield.

I don't know if this would fix the Eldar race altogether. There are still many other issues people have brought up: entangle, guardians having too many abilities, other aspects being worthless, etc. But since the Council in its current manifestation is such an integral part of the Eldar strategy, we'd probably be better off changing one thing at a time, and seeing how balance is affected. If we "fix" all these issues at once, we'll probably just gimp the Eldar race overall, which would be just as bad for competitive play.

[SubZero]

Ok.......
...
.
..
.
.
.
.
.
Ive just played a game with an Eldar, who, in the same time it took me to get 1 Farseer, 3 SC, 3 Guardian Squads and cap 3 Critical Locations, had acquired 9 SC and a Farseer with 1 Guardian squad.
I meant to save the replay, but i kinda didnt lol

Cut a long story short, all my troops were pushed about, entangled, torn to shreds etc.
Indeed my only counter as Eldar was to use the SC, who were outnumbered at this point 3:1 with his SC, thus ragdoll pushing them about.

Perhaps this was the top players people talk about who know how to rush effectively, i dont know.

Interestingly, when i entangled the SC, they only lasted entangled for 1-3 secs.

So to sum up this long story...

I was incorrect about the SC being overpowered, my forum account is not hacked, and i rarely use the SC, and if i do, it was never as a rush. This was my first true encounter versus an enemy who used them, and needless to say, it was a skeptical 9 SC + FS +2 guardian squads which i couldnt fathom being built in the time taken to capture 4 LPs and 1 Critical Location on Khorne Valley Map.

However, what every post lacks is a solution, so after experiencing this, and being an Eldar player who relies later on in the game on the SC...

Make the SC Light Infantry until you have an Avatar. -_-

[Fenris-X2]

It's better to nerf the SC and have the possibility of overnerfing than not do anything and have a guaranteed overpowered race no?

[SubZero]

It's better to nerf the SC and have the possibility of overnerfing than not do anything and have a guaranteed overpowered race no?

As i said before, this is the first time in 50 games that i encountered this. I never used it myself and neither do 4 of my friends who play the game.

I attempted rushes before in the 2min30 time zone that people stated, and my SC were quenched.

This was perhaps 4-5mins, and i encountered Fortuned Concealed SC + FS x 9, with 2 x 10 Guardian Squads with entangle.

You all know the outcome, i lost all my troops (FS, 3 SC, 3 Guardian Squads) regardless of my entangles and Mindwars etc. My turrets didnt even touch them :P

I just had a game now posted on this forum '1vs1 Marine vs Eldar (no Rush)' which shows later in the game the SC + FS being used fully enhanced dying quite quickly to Terminators :P

So i have encountered an easy counter for them as Marines at Tier3, and an impossible situation at Tier1 as Eldar vs Eldar !