[LADDER][1v1]Entangle Exploiting

[Navaros]

Map: Outer Reaches
Players: Navaros - Chaos; FreeWin - Eldar
Win Conditions: Default
Win Condition Triggered: Annihilate
Duration: 9 minutes


in this game we see how Entangle can be exploited at 2:30 into the game with no possible counter, as done by FreeWin here

as you can see, none of my units could move at all at any point during this encounter

even my Chaos Lord was not shooting most of the time. he was just standing there doing nothing at all as he was paralyzed. no shooting, no nothing.

there is obviously zero counter for this Entangle exploit and this game serves as evidence as to why Entangle needs a very major nerfing immediately

note: i do not like being exploited so i used a lot of "colorful" language in this game. if you are at all offended by R-rated language then do not download or watch this replay ever

[Reborn]

Freewin, a very suiting name for an Eldar player that knows their early game.

[Navaros]

i now have another replay of a guy named DMl-DoNi doing the exact same thing

seems all the ladder Eldar players are using this exploit now

i really hope Relic nerfs this nonsense ASAP cuz it's totally killing the ladder gameplay

[bigjangin]

Navaros, you are a nub and you suck. You were in the chatroom complaining about it every single time you lost, which was 2 or 3 in the short time I was there. You got owned, and owned hard. Its not an exploit, you need to practice more.

To recap, Freewin owned you, you are a nub, its not an exploit.

[Aetherfox]

It's not an "exploit" when clearly Entangle does exactly what it is supposed to do, Entangle things into place. It looks pretty strong, however it would have done almost nothing if you did NOT build the CL and had full strength CSM squads to match his Guardians instead (of course this is before Conceal).

Sorry but I was falling out of my chair laughing when watching that replay. Yes Entangle is very strong. I get the feeling you might be better off engaging the Guardians in close combat, and letting them waste the Entangles on your regular cultist and CSM squads who can then just stand in place and fire.

Detaching your CL the moment his squad gets Entangled might help you. Versus Eldar you should know not to get the CL anyway, he just becomes Entangle bait. Go for more CSM ranged squads, HB and Grenades to help beat off those Guardians.

Not much to help once the SC comes out though.

The lesson here - the problem is not that Entangle is too strong, the lesson is that each race has strengths and weaknesses which you must identify in the early part of the game to counter - which Relic is making impossible by hiding the races in automatch. If you knew he was Eldar you would not make CL so early.

[Thygrrr]

It's not an "exploit" when clearly Entangle does exactly what it is supposed to do, Entangle things into place. It looks pretty strong, however it would have done almost nothing if you did NOT build the CL and had full strength CSM squads to match his Guardians instead (of course this is before Conceal).

You're not seriously suggesting not into the first battle without a hero, are you? A hero is worth at least as much as two squads.

[Navaros]

first of all, you don't KNOW what race the enemy is before the time comes when you have to decide to get a CL or not

second of all, i TRIED to engage the Guardians in CC but i was paralyzed before i could during every single encounter

@big: please keep your nonsense out of this thread. until you have a replay of YOU countering a non-n00b Entangle exploiter, do not hijack my thread with drivel please

[Thygrrr]

@ Navaros: Well... you behaviour in the game was less than sportsmanlike. Also, he wasn't really exploiting, as a matter of fact your forces were ridiculously weak to start with.

Admittedly, FreeWin is a typical SC/Tangle rusher, and his screen name proves that he's very well aware of the balance problems.

[Zylon]

i dunno what you could have done in that game, melee is out of the question due to entangle and the ones using entangle have ranged weapons

orks are even more vulnareble to this cause sluggas are melee units

"edited"

[Navaros]

i don't think there's anything that could have been done and if there is then i wanna see some gosu player post a replay of him as Chaos beating this Entangle exploit rush by FreeWin on that map

Entangle is just as bad if not worse of an imbalance than Conceal

why is Entangle even at tier 1? that alone is pretty insane.

[Spiral]

I have thought entangle was overpowered from the moment I first saw it.

Look at warcraft, the keeper of the grove entangles ONE unit and it makes a HUGE HUGE difference in battles. Now, relic has gone and given EVERY SINGLE ELDAR SQUAD entangle. How can you fight a ranged army when your guys cannot close to melee range and cannot position themselves to focus fire? You can't run away and reposition for a better fight ever......

[Optimus Prime]

Well it is an exploit if it is overpowered so much to make a match unbalanced from one race to another. It also could be suggested that it is a bug/glitch that will be fixed by Relic in their first major patch.

[SubZero]

lol, i don't think using Entangle is an exploit.
Its just as much as an exploit as you charging an infiltrated Aspiring Champion into their base and summoning a BloodThirster. Its a game mechanic.

[Navaros]

Bloodthirsters are easy as pie to kill and don't show up for ages into the game (like, 20 minutes or more)

Entangle on the other hand, can be used at 2:30 into the game and is impossible to counter

nope sorry, no comparison there at all unless the devs want "Eldar having unbeatable rushes" to be a 'game mechanic'

[Guillaume777]

You're not seriously suggesting not into the first battle without a hero, are you? A hero is worth at least as much as two squads.

Not against a decent eldar who has entangle. Under those conditions an hero is worth as much as 0 squads.

Btw if your units aren't shooting once entangled press f2, it helps.

[First And Only]

Entangle is overpowered. Any spell that can make any enemy hero or unit, or even power units like Possessed die to 2 squads of guardians (only 5 men strong), is overpowered.

It must and will be reduced in length, and it should have a further reduced effect vs heroes.

Seriously guys, saying "Your forces were pathetic" is irrelevant, because you can see for yourself how long entnagle lasts. Put any infantry there and tell me that it isn't overpowered.

You saw how long it lasts, so consider entangling a marine squad and having dark reapers go at them, or banshees. The amount of time entangle gives is ridiculous.

[Anubis]

Sorry guys, what I dont buy is that suddenly everything that Eldar players use in the early game is overpowered.
SC is too hard.
Conceal is too hard.
Entangle is too hard.
Warlocks in Squads are too hard.
Plasma Grenades are too hard.

While I do agree the Eldar early game is over the top right now, its getting ridiculous to complain about each and everything that you dont beat in the early game. These things are ALL eldar have going for them in the early game, they ARE the early Eldar game. Changing those elements, especially several at once, will have an extreme effect on survivability. At least 2 of these things are simply a strength of that race, just as much as the Terminators are the SM late game strength, and the Wartrakks are the Ork rush strength. Eldar have to be good at SOMETHING you know.

That being said, my preliminary suggestions would be: Move Conceal further up the tech tree, say after Mobilize for War. Give Entangle a slightly longer research time, and perhaps weaken the duration on hero units a bit.

Even small changes can have a tremendous effect when you measure the game stages in 2-minute intervals. It can mean a lot whether you have Entangle at 2:30, or at 3:00.

[190 Proof]

Good point Anubis, clearly Eldar are too strong right now, but if some people on these boards had their way they would be totally unplayable. Reduce entangle's effect on heroes and control the conceal stack on SC would fix it right quick.

[darkminnion]

LOL LOL LOL :bandit: Man just gotta say you are the funniest guy whos replay I have ever seen, I am sure that guy was a faggot :jk: , LOL you said it so many times even i believed it !!


DarkMinnion
-----------
Heh went to visit the funny man !! :smash:

[darkminnion]

Anubis !!

I see what you are saying but that much early abuse is just way redic, but there are some changes comming !

But 1 thing I think is that they must somehow change the Eldar tech tree just a lil, bit more dependancy on tech, atm they build like 4 buildings fast which basically opens up the table to any tech unit early-mid game they start with all the counters just need to grade em.

Soul Shrine is way to cheap to build
Entangle should be less efective vs hero type units - although if hero is attached to entangled squad and then detached he becomes free.

Seer counsil needs to be a bit more of a "Early----^--Mid" game unit not a "Early--^----Mid" Unit.

So yeah basically they need to rework Eldar slightly.

Otherwise WH RAAAWWWWKKKKKSSSS !!! Damn love this game.

DM
---
"To die without passion, is to never be burned by fire" DarkMinnion

[Lonewolf64]

I'm an eldar player and I agree that the Eldar need to be toned down. When I was in beta, I always played SM and I still do. I started to play Eldar in retail and I have noticed that their abilities are a little too much. I also have realized that the Seer Council gets the bonus from Conceal 15 times for every warlock and that is something that needs to be fixed. I really think that the eldar need to be toned down a little all the way across all of the following issues.

-Conceal (Conceal is fine but for SC)
-Entangle (Entangle needs to toned down against hero's)
-Plasma Grenades (They need to be more like Frag's damage)
-SC (If I am correct they will be fine after the Conceal bug is fixed)

I may have missed some stuff but what I am saying is completly fair based on a good eldar ('bout 80 wins 85% rate)
and a good SM playing against Eldar player.

[Lonewolf64]

By the way I watched that replay and even though the eldar are slightly out of tune that was still a pretty sad display Navaros. (It is still very possible to win aginst eldar...)

[bigjangin]

If no one else noticed the eldar player didnt build a farseer. If Navaros had done the same, he would have had more marines. Marines are better than guardians unless they have entangle and grenades. It was a strategy that worked quite well, because almost everyone goes for hero right off the bat, and this gave him a good advantage. And when you call players that are CLEARLY better than you "OMG EXPLOITING N00B FA**OT" dont be expected to be taken seriously. I remember you complaining about "CLANSTACKING N00BS" who were just friends that played you 2v2 and kicked your arse. Just because you arent up to their skill level doesnt mean other people are cheating/exploiting/stacking.

[tenth]

I just had a game where i had early 25-30 chaos marines in 4 squads and fought against around 15 guardians in 3 squads, 3 seers and a fs. It was a total onslaught, there was nothing i could do. Entangle and nades all over the place......

[fgStratus]

(As of this current version) Entangle is overpowered. No comment on whether it will still be so after the balance patch.

But Navaros also played very, very poorly.

So in the end, I think both sides are right =D.

[orororr]

Navaros, the moment you see guardians with your cultist you should've charged them. cultists are meant to be used as meat shield. THEN your marine squad can start shooting and take them down. Why don't you take a look at other people playing Chaos and get your build order correct? By the end of the game you only have a Temple and no other building. You could've at least gotten a plasma/armory.

I personally don't think Conceal/Entangle should be made Tier 2, cuz the req for Mobilization is quite high...especially if you are constantly fighting in a 1v1 situation. They are quite essential cuz SM/Chaos can tech up to HB quite quickly. And for those people who complain about nades.....even tho guardians throw it 3 times (yes, its a bug), only the 1st one really hits, the 2nd/3rd one doesn't connect cuz your troops are already blown all over.

[Navaros]

i did try charging my cultists in case you hadn't noticed. they got entangled just like everything else

about guys saying "i played poorly" then i'd like you to tell me specifically how i played poorly rather than just give useless generic commentary (except for that "big" guy cuz he clearly has nothing contructive or ontopic to say at all)

[BeHe]

Entangle, hmm. While I agree it should be less effective against heros it still has a long duration against vanilla squads, too long, if that duration was to stay it would need a much bigger cooldown time for guardian squad warlocks. You shouldnt be able to spam it every fight and cut whatever you face to peices. SC conceal stacking and plasma grens are being addressed but i dont think they need to move SC up the tech that would be too much of a nerf.

That said Navaros, you didnt really try to counter it. Personally I would try to lure them into using it against throw away units like cultists while keeping your marines back a little, also you didnt tech! An armoury would have helped heavy bolter marines tear the crap out of guardians entangled or not but then they would spend too much time lying on their back with the SC around. Hmmm might wanna try rushing raptors, ive seen them (or assault marines) used against entangling eldars to good effect, at least if things start going pear shaped and theyre entangled they can jump out of harms way. Just means skipping your Lord for a while, but considering he got cut to shreds thats no big deal eh? :)

Also the name calling serves no purpose, work harder, think faster and learn to counter the cheese, that will piss the abusers off more than calling them names!

[Navaros]

the thing is if he wasn't Eldar and came at with another race and another Hero to fight me instead of being an entangle exploiter, then i woulda got massacred by forgoing my CL

i take CL first because usually it's the best thing to do. since this was a Ladder game, there was no way to know he was gonna be Eldar right off the bat

i guess it's futher evidence that races really do need to be displayed during loading, as everyone else has been saying

[yeeek]

I think, calling him an exploiter is uncalled for... since he just use what is given to him and use it at is best.

Now, yes ... eldar need a big fix ASAP. And we know its coming, if you can't handle the bugs with eldars then i suggest don't play ranked games untill the patch is out.

This way you'll avoid the seer councils, bugged plasma grenades, conceal stacking and so on... Because lets face, most of the ranked eldar players use it.

[Navaros]

i haven't seen in the "eldar issues" dev commentary whether they're gonna nerf entangle itself, even tho entangle itself is in very desperate need of a major nerfing

hence...perhaps after the patch, this nonsense might still be going on :argh:

[yeeek]

I don't see how entangle is an issue... try this, thats what i do, attach your CL to your cultist squad (ie meat shield) if they entangle the squad then just remove the CL from the squad, he'll be free.

I know its annoying, i've lost games due to entangle myself, thats why i don't use CC units anymore btw... entangle and they get mowed down away. But its not really an issue if your CL is attached to a squad.

[Zylon]

if people whine about entangle cause there is nothing you can do to escape while its active.. eldar players go its all ok

what if you had to engage into melee the moment a melee unit hits your squad.. imagen ork sluggas tieing up all your guardian squads and there is no way to pull them back, then you can just sit back and watch em die.. would they say that be ok to? :D

[First And Only]

Entangle is overpowered, hands down. I'm too lazy to keep on repeating why it's overpowered, so just go look at all the other threads. XD

[yurch]

Zylon, there's nothing keeping the eldar from just running away with FoF. The eldar really don't need entangle, it feels like a kick in the teeth.

[190 Proof]

Once SC gets pushed back in tech tree and plasma nades get nerfed, entangle will be the only thing keeping those lonely guardian squads alive at the beginning of the game. If it didnt' effect heroes, the eldar would have no counter to heroes early game. If you haven't noticed, a full-health FC or CL will mow down a SC or a FS like an early afternoon snack and then eat up everyone left alive. Eldar will have jack for HtH after the patch, they will need entangle to keep out of it. And Yurch, FoF is great to run away, but you aren't doing any damage; running away for a minute or two till your 'nades/entangle/sc/plats/whatever get out is fine, but it is not a substitute for entangle which is the only thing for when eldar actually have to FIGHT.

Don't even try to tell me banshees will be a substitutie for the SC early on, as they are now they are worthless unless you have entangle and plasma to knock everyone on their ass while they run in. Even then they are suspect without warshout/exarch.

Personally as an Eldar I am really excited for the patch, I'm sick of hearing complaints about my pointy-eared boys. I don't ever research conceal, and don't get my SC until 6 min in... finally no more "omg you lamerz n00b using the SC halfway through the game..." never mind that i pwned him with only guardian squads and a FS for the first 6 mins of the game...

[Navaros]

if your argument is "FS sucks because she can't melee like the CL" then in order to "make things fair" ,let's take away all the FS spells , or give the CL some equivalent early-game spells

FS is supposed to be weak at melee because she gets good spells. CL is strong at melee because he doesn't get any spells (except for a mostly useless one, and even that is only at tier 2 which is not what we're talking about in this thread)

what i'm saying: you can't equate FS being weak at melee as being justification for giving Eldar overpowered exploits like "Entangle"

[190 Proof]

so after the dev's nerf grenades and move the SC down the tech tree, then you think they should ALSO make entangle not work on heroes? Is that your point? good God man, what do you expect Eldar to kill your marines with, just massed shuriken fire?

To answer your post, IMO, the Farseer is the best hero in the game, but that is only because the eldar have a way (entangle ) to keep FC and CL from coming in and housing the entire eldar army by themselves. Entangle is only super-powerful right now because it is combined with overstrength grenades and the SC who can go clean up your marines in a second.

[Chris]

good God man, what do you expect Eldar to kill your marines with, just massed shuriken fire?

Maybe they could build some dark reapers instead of teching straight to SC? I dunno.

[Zyklon]

This is replay is a MUST watch. Not only do you get to see arguably the crappiest game in existance, but you get to see top notch sportsmanship to boot! :beer:

Damn, Navaros...you have got to be the biggest homophobe around. Get out of your room and you'll notice the world has moved on past crucifying homosexuals.

As far as constructive criticism goes, I suppose building a few well placed mines after you got beaten down the first time wouldn't have gone awry; would have chewed up some clock at the very least (opposed to chewing 'clock' without the 'l', which you were adamant that your oppenent does :bandit:).

[Bakah]

lol @ all the people screaming to nerf entangle. Im sick of hearing sm/chaos player say it cos they think eldar should FIGHT toe to toe with marines. Eldar CANNOT win in a straight up fight, as has been said, they need thier abilities to weaken and divide the enemy. You say GET DARK REAPERS, i say you havent even f**king tried it. I use eldar without council or conceal, and have stopped using grenades since they were said to be bugged, im f**king tired of jackasses complaining about entangle as well. Entangle is the ONLY thing that stops mass marine spam from overwhelming eldar with banshees and reapers. You marine players especially make me sick. The majority of you mass ONE unit type, send it at the enemy and expect it to win cos if it doesnt its not YOUR TACTICS that need rethinking.

I dont mean this to anyone in particular, and not all SM players are complete wanks, but seriously. I had one guy call me 'lame eldar cheese' after i entangled 2 of his 4 marines squads(he had 4 squads + FC) and picked them off with reapers from outside thier range. No assualt marines, no armoury, just marine spam, which is what almost every SM player on the ladder does and expects to win with. I had another guy tell me Banshee warshout was overpowered, because it had 2 banshee squads with some reapers, guardians and farseer beat his mass of marines. So in thier opinion, i should just continually keep running till there is nowhere left to run and lose in a stand up fight.

Had it with the whingeing against eldar in general, council is bugged, grenades are bugged, that is a HINDERANCE if an eldar player doesnt use either. So grow the f**k up when you lose to someone better than you.

Angry

[Navaros]

all the other races can very easily get "overwhelmed" by mass-CC units - you dont see those races whining that they need to have an entangle-like exploit in order to save themselves from dying to that.

Eldar is the only race that has Dark Reapers which are pound for pound, the best infantry in the whole damn game! (the lead designer has even said something to this effect!)

if Eldar "needs" entangle, then every other race needs entangle even moreso than Eldar!

[190 Proof]

hahahahaha oh navaros it is so clear you have no understanding of this game at all. Eldar have no armour. They have no hit points. They have no morale. If you so much as throw pleasantly plump marshmellows at them they break and die. Even to defeat a squad of scouts with you guardians w/o powers you need almost a 2-1 advantage, (in case you also can't do math in addition to not understanding the mechanics of the game, that means the Eldar has to invest 180 req compared to 90 for the marines, and SM can grow req faster due to cheap scout squads).

Also, in case you hadn't bothered to read that little "troop information box" that is below your squads when you click on them, SM actually do MORE damage in HtH than they do shooting; whereas guardians basically roll over and die. CSM are even MORE HtH oriented... oh... you didn't know that CSM do over TWICE as much damage in HtH than at range? Obviously, Orks rock in HtH

This leaves ONLY the Eldar unable to survive in early stages of the game in HtH. Reapers are NOT a solution unless you have entangle, they have an extreme set-up period, and any idiot... yes, possibly even a whiney SM player... would just grab the nearest squad of highly HtH capable marines and charge them into the Reapers. Bringing up reapers just shows your total lack of understanding about this game, Reapers PROVE the need for entangle, they are the only anti-Heavy Infantry unit the eldar have early game.

[BeHe]

Entangle stopping movement isnt the issue, the issues are thus:

a) In my opinion it lasts a little too long.
b) Entangled units seem to stop attacking/shooting even if in range.
c) The cooldown seems too short, 3 guardian squads with warlocks seem to have a constant supply of entangle. rendering any CC squads completely and utterly useless.

As it stands it is a little over-powered, and well reapers dont need entangle to be effective, they have an extreme range to go with that extreme set up time as you call it so quite what they are doing within engagement range of marines is beyond me. Also reapears are not the only anti-heavy infantry Eldar have! Banshees will also help tear up marine squads.

So argue for this overpowered spell all you want but try playing from the other side as SM, CSM, Ork and youll get to see just how ridiculous it is currently.

[Zylon]

all nice and all 190 proof about the engage reapers into melee, but they actually run away wen you try that, while your forces get shot by the remaining units you have

exactly the point people try to show... with entangle there is no running away. imagen your reapers entangled and the enemy engaged into melee

thats exactly the situation orks face but instead of ranged fire beeing obsolete cause of melee orks just get tangled and shot to bits with no way to defend themselves
and dont tell go shootas in stead of sluggas unless you think average ranged combat units stand a chance vs specialised ranged units :D

[Bakah]

The reason it seems like it recharges so fast is because when you kill a warlock and they buy another one, they get entangle again. I dont see how lowering the duration by anything less than half would do anything, eldar units will kill you in 5 seconds or they wont kill you at all, thats just the way they are geared.

[BeHe]

CSM do over TWICE as much damage in HtH than at range?

CSM Melee - 26-31
CSM Range - 22-27

?

[n0z3k1ll3r]

If thats in-game stats then its innaccurate. They all are.

Also who says Dark Reapers are the only anti-heavy infantry Eldar unit. Banshees anyone? They aren't actually bad, they just aren't Seer Council good, so everyone ignores them. A decent combination of Banshees and Dark Reapers with adequate micro will smash Marines horribly.

[BeHe]

Still doesnt address the issue of whether entangle is meant to stop squads attacking aswell as moving as it sometimes seems to.


If thats in-game stats then its innaccurate. They all are.

Then what data is he going by when he says they do twice as much damage in melee?

[190 Proof]

Reapers cant 'run away' or they suffer the same 2.5 second re-setup period, by which time the squad chasing them will be within melee distance again. If your DR ever get seriously engaged in CC you must disengage the entire combat or run entangle the offending unit.

Entangle recharge is desperately slow. I think it takes something like 90 seconds. Too long to ever be used twice in a battle unless its one of those giant mid to late game affairs.

I've played as SM and Ork quite a bit, and although entangle is horribly frustrating, you can deal with it so long as the Eldar is a Cheese King and has his SC running at you by minute three.'

I dont remember who said it but they did make a good point that entangle sometimes causes units not to shoot... that I think is a bug cuz sometimes they DO shoot, and it should be fixed so they shoot. Otherwise, entangle is critical for eldar survival. remember: no armour, no hit points, and no morale = necessity for entangle.

[MoltenHeart]

Damn, Navaros...you have got to be the biggest homophobe around. Get out of your room and you'll notice the world has moved on past crucifying homosexuals.

Damn this gave me a good morning laugh. Thanks Zyklon :D

[FEMTO]

Well said Bakah and 190 Proof. I am begining to get seriously pissed off with all the eldar bashing that is going on these boards. The entangle is blatently obviously necessary for the eldar to survive early in the game. Me persoanlly, I think FC and CL are overly powerful and need to be toned down. I think SM and CSM are overly powerful too in comparison to gaurdian squads. If relic decided to nerf these units, then i would be happy to see all the elder nerfing that people are crying out about to have happen, happen.

[190 Proof]

Hahah, yes, kudos to Zyklon for pointing out how stupid Navaros sounds with his screeching homophobia. I can almost see the little zits popping right on his face in rage at the thought of gay eldar "entangling" him ;)

[The_Iron_Raven]

A few things.

1. Why is it that people get so pissed at Eldar players? Its bc in the hands of good micro, they pwn. On the other hand, people that have crappy micro wonder why they can't just do an attack+move and win.

2. You cannot play aganst Eldar like you can aganst Orks, Sm's, and CM's. They are a whole different ballgame. They rely on spells and other specil abilities to win the day. While I do agree that entangle should be toned down a bit, I also do agree with the fact that PEOPLE SHOULD STOP RANTING ABOUT IMBALANCE AND START TRYING TO FIND COUNTERS! When I first started playing, I had a hard time vs PSM's. BUT INSTEAD OF MINDLES RANTING I READ THE FORUMS AND LOOKED FOR SOME COUNTERS. This is what you d in an RTS, you don't rant, but make strategies to beat your
opponent.

3. Navaros, you remind me of an ork player I vs'ed earlier. He rushed me and I managed to survive the attack. He continued to send units, and I continued to outmicro him, and I eventually started to take over the strategy points I had lost. He then called me an "eldar fag" and I said that I didn't even build a Seer Council and I still had won the battle. He then procceded to call me an SC abuser and then left. This is why I hate Ork plaers now, their intelligence seems to rival the orks they play as...

READ MY SECOND QUOTE ON THE BOTTOM EVERYONE!

[Zylon]

hmmmp trying to give us Orks a bad name :banned:
morons play on all sides

[The_Iron_Raven]

Sorry, its just that I got pissed bc its USUALLY the ork players that complain, flame, and call Eldar names even when the Eldar sometimes have the better skill. Sorry if I offended you. :duck:

[Bakah]

morons play on all sides

Unfortunately true.

[Fenris-X2]

the reason why you didnt moan and found a counter to PSMs is because PSMs are not overpowered. they have very real weaknesses in running speed and tech cost. PSMs were never an issue for anyone good at the game.

people whine about eldar because its not about skill, if both players equally skilled eldar will win vs SM/Chaos easily without much effort. thats the key point, no one likes to lose to people they feel are less skillful or attack movers.

[Navaros]

i got another replay now of a guy called "Gruener_Tee" using the entangle exploit on the ladder

from this game i now see that it's total and complete nonsense to say Eldar "needs" entangle because the other races can't catch Eldar anyways! even without entangle the Eldar can just keep running away, shooting the crap out of the Chaos Lord, running away again, shooting some more crap out of him, then running away again etc.!

Eldar don't need entangle at all. the others races need it much much more - to entangle Eldar units, which are uncatchable.

if entangle stays in the game then it needs a major nerfing! else Eldar exploiting will still dominate the ladder even after the Seer-nerfing patch is out

[Chris]

The only time I've struggled without entangle was when I got attacked by a FC + tac squad + scouts against my 3 guardian squads + FS + Dark Reapers. Without entangle I found it pretty damn hard keeping the FC and scouts from engaging in close combat with my reapers. Basically I had to micro my guardians around like a monkey on crack while all the SM player had to do was attack move. However with entangle I would have probably walked all over the SM player.

I admit that I'm still a newb/inter at this game and someone with better micro than me might have pulled it off but I just felt like throwing in my 2 pence. :)

[CobraKessen]

why do people insist on putting all there req into 3 squads of maxed marines,orks,or chaos againts eldar.while fenris has PROVED its impossible or almost thereso for SM or CSM to beat the eldar.most players arent at his skill level,either by lack of experience or hes a DoW god.whichever.if you see eldar build 6 squads of CSM or SM for the cost of the 3 you maxed out ealier and see how the games go,you might do better against entangle.and why not try changing the order that you chage in with,let youre SM go first get entangles then jump in assault marines from behind them :fight: ,they have the range to be out of site tillthe guardians entangles are used up then jump in.most ork players with there waaagh points needed to built units and reenforce,build small massed units rather then one huge one,and that becomes a problem when you run out of entagle and there still have squads closeing in.nothing good microing cant handle,if you know how to not that im a pro at it..........yet :nana: .plasma nades DOES have a problem as it fires 3 nades whereas it should be just 1,its a bug.if entagles to be nerfed it should be done delicatly and not my much.and the SC conceal bug needs to be fixed too.eldar dont need to be nerfed they just need to be DEBUGGED :smash: then well talk about nerfing :Slap:

[BeHe]

Good points cobra, although in automatch you dont know if youre up against a mass guardian squad entangle eldar until its probably too late.

[CobraKessen]

thats what culitits,gardians,scouts and slugas are for.ive seen gretchins scouting me then ran away faster then i could get them.but there are audio hints as to which race your up against as you even see so much as a captured point you dont need to be toe to toe before you see what you need to build.im my experience i find out what race the opponent is within 1min mabye alittle more or less as the map goes,as your first squads are scrambling around captureing points.a good scout is the best defence if you get away with it unoticed.caputring your opponents strat points may not be as effective as prepareing your army to vrs his if hes still in the dark about what to build................now only if i could put into smooth practice what say everytime i play :D

"edited" to apoligize to the_iron_raven for using the quote in his signature in mine im sorry but its soo perfect for every eldar player out there SC using or not

[BeHe]

Oh yeah, im outstanding at theory aswell. :beer:

[SubZero]

Facts :
-Eldar cannot beat any army head-on all-out war.
-Eldar are given unique appeal and abilities to make up for their weak troops, weak vehicles, poor tier3 specialities.
-Chaos, Marines and Orks all are similar in their base layouts and compositions, Eldar however, are different. This is apparently a BIG problem, especially Cloaking the base.
-Cloaking will be the next 'nerf wannabe' because i can't have a Hero at every location of the map
-People forget, the FS+SC are 99% together in the game, and therefore have zero flexibility in detecting cloaked units, i.e, Scouts near/in your base waiting for DeepStrike
-Eldar Farseer Psychic Powers are only powerful early game, late game they are far from effective. Compare the powers to Word of The Emperor, Orbital Strike...
-The only truly effective power throughout the whole game is Entangle.

Just because Eldar are different to the other Armies in that they won't attack you head-on into your force, doesn't mean they are overpowered, it means that they are guaranteed to lose if they do that.

The best Eldar players late-game, will totally ignore your army and focus on the objectives...

[Zylon]

people seem to forget the huge advantage preventing the enemy from moving is.. not beeing able to engage.. seek cover.. or flee
i dont think they should get rid of entangle but dont give it to standard squads wich all can use it of course that leads to abuse

not sure if there is room left in the abilities bar but why not remove entangle from warlocks and move it to the "balanced" seer council wich is limited to only 1. maybe a bit faster cool down but beeing able to use it only once in an encounter is a huge advantage like that squad of PSM or assault terminators or the feared nob squad waiting to stomp you

but all warlocks beeing able to use entangle no way

[Soulrender]

If eldar players think this is a skill whom is very important for them to have a chance, well then let them keep it, but atleast a higher cooldown on it please....

[Bakah]

cooldown is like 2 or so minutes. Its cos people kill the warlock in the squad, and when he is rebuilt you have your abilities anew. I wish people would read the whole thread.

[Zach Wraithbone]

Entangle is not an exploit, due to the fact that relic states that it's working as intended...

THAT however, doesn't change the fact that is't a VERY powerfull ability, wich has NO counter what so ever! This affects gameplay and balance, wich in the end is relics problem, as game balance is needed in such games.

This means, that a nerf or change to that skill is needed to make the game fun.. FOR other than just the lame eldar players out there...

Just my IMO

[Chris]

Its cos people kill the warlock in the squad, and when he is rebuilt you have your abilities anew. I wish people would read the whole thread.

And it always seems that the warlock gets killed pretty early when the squads getting shot at, it's like he's the 3rd or 4th to die in a full squad.

[Navaros]

cooldown doesn't even matter in the first 5 minutes because the Eldar will have enough entangle-exploit spells to paralyze your whole damn army until your whole damn army is 100% dead, followed shortly by your base

for entangle to be the least bit "balanced" then the following changes must be made:

1. no Warlock Captains for Eldar til tier 2. the other races have to wait til tier 2 to get their Captains and their Captains give crappy abilities which pale horribly in comparison to the entangle-exploit! so why the Hell are Eldar Captains at tier 1? that's insane!

2. Heros should be immune to entangle. period.

3. entangle duration should be decreased by at least 2/3rds

[Chris]

1. no Warlock Captains for Eldar til tier 2. the other races have to wait til tier 2 to get their Captains and their Captains give crappy abilities which pale horribly in comparison to the entangle-exploit! so why the Hell are Eldar Captains at tier 1? that's insane!

Eldar and Orks don't really use the same tier system as SM/CM. Basically the soul shrine is tier 2, it's just available very early because it's cheap.

[jeremyj2e]

1. no Warlock Captains for Eldar til tier 2. the other races have to wait til tier 2 to get their Captains and their Captains give crappy abilities which pale horribly in comparison to the entangle-exploit! so why the Hell are Eldar Captains at tier 1? that's insane!

2. Heros should be immune to entangle. period.

3. entangle duration should be decreased by at least 2/3rds

That is way too much nerfing. I like 3, but maybe 1/3rd at the most. I would start there and leave everything else alone.