View Full Version : What do you think should change?
8th Oct 04, 6:10 AM
I decided to make this thread so that we could discuss (in a sensible manner) what we believe the upcomming Codecies should have compared to the current ones. This could be anything from if you believe Dire Avengers need a bit something extra to make them unique, to weapons (though please try to avoid mentioning Wraithlords and blabbing on about how "cheesy <insert unit name here> Is" - express you opinion without going nuts over it). I leave it to you guys, enjoy.
8th Oct 04, 9:30 AM
The new ork codex should make it legal to have looted vehicles from witch hunters and also the 'raider crusader, also lootas should be able to have things from other races not just imperial stuff.
8th Oct 04, 10:05 AM
i would like to see a weakening of the eldar wraithlord and the Ap on a starcannon at 4 or 3. and the weakening of the seer councils defense against perils of the warp. but i would also like to an increase in the eldars attacking abilites with psychic powers.
i would like to see ork nobs to be cheaper, and to be able to take stuff from other armies.
i would like tau pulse rifles to be changed to S4 range 36 and kroot to become either elites or fast attack. but i would also like the tau to gain other allies.
an all round balancing of choas.
reckon most other armies are alright, altho i would like to see every army have doctrines or some such so that armies can gain a real personal and unique feel.
8th Oct 04, 4:39 PM
Range thirty six? Isn't the longer carbine Range 30? Setting it range 24 to be equal to enemy bolters and lasguns alone would make them quite interesting, as they force pinning tests, and at (you suggested bringing them to S4) S4 AP 5 would be equivalent of a bolter damage-wise. At range 36, they'd have more firepower then a lasgun, more range and force a pinning test.
I hope that was a typo. :]
8th Oct 04, 6:39 PM
I can understand adding more marine and imperial vehicles to the Orks looting but I don't know about some other races. How exactly would the Orks keep the incredibly complicated Eldar hover vehicles working? Sure, fluffwise they may keep them working but when it breaks down their screwed. Just my 2 cents.
8th Oct 04, 11:57 PM
collector - yeah i meant 30, i aint played a tau player in ages (my mates never got proper armies) i thought the standard range was 36. anyway i thought only the pulse carbines cause pinning tests, not the pulse rifles.
Cajun - i cant stand this arugment every time something like this comes up, "you cant steal eldar stuff because its too great and too clever". well you can the ork psychy could keep the things running, any whose to say that its not currently floating when they got it, thats what they have the break down rules for. orks should be able to steal anything and incorporate their own technology into it.
9th Oct 04, 2:16 AM
*Shrug* It just always seemed to me like this was the unspoken rule. They can take Imperial and Space Marine vehicles cause they are relatively simple and easy to jury-rig.
9th Oct 04, 2:33 AM
just because its technology is advanced doesn't mean the controls are hard to learn. in fact, looking at airplanes, I'd say controlling the plane has gotten a lot easier. its the navigation and subsystems that have increased complexity, and that might change as ergonomics advance.
anyways, i want rail rifles as a sort of heavy weapon option in firewarrior squads. I want them to un-fubar the Shas'vre and Shas'ui stats, especially for the crisis suits. maybe another weapon option for XV15's. Also, Tau drones need to be getting new special rules, so they become worthwhile as additions to squads and independent characters again. as they are now, they are not only worthless, but downright dangerous to any player fielding them, since they will screw up mob and majority armour save throws. A true, harder close combat unit in the army list would also add flavour, and maybe stop tau players doing stupid things and play them like IG. Tau aren't shooty.
9th Oct 04, 8:26 AM
I was just saying that that range 36 would be superior to a pulse rifle, have the strength of a bolter and cause pinning. Even if they were range 30, they'd still be mostly superior to the pulse rifles, and wouldn't have to be called carbine anymore. :)
Eldar craft dont use a traditional interface; the Eldar interact with their machines because they're made of wraithbone; using psi-stuff to do things. Orks probably couldn't use such a machine. Or at least Eldar ships use such a control mechanism:
"Because of the unique practices of Eldar psychic engineering, Eldar spaceships resonate with sympathetic psychic energy. The Wraithbone core provides a psychic channel through which an Eldar can control mechanical functions. In this way, Eldar attuned to the very essence of their spaceship guide it, making countless minute adjustments to the trim of the great solar sails to draw every fraction of energy from the solar winds." -WD139
10th Oct 04, 7:03 AM
Wow. People really have gone mad. Sir Guppy, i DID say to try not to mention Wraithlords didnt i? Until you truly know a race and the fact that they're mostly fragile, you wont realise that having a single unit that can actually take punishment is balanced. Now lets have no more on that.
As for the rest. Orks stealing most Imperial vehicles is not only dumb, but unbalanced. Same for stealing Eldar vehicles, as NOBODY in their right mind can say "its not THAT hard to use, and include other technology into it with little difficulty". "You cant steal eldar stuff because its too great and too clever" - Your quote i believe Guppy. Whether you like it or not, its much like comparing an ant to a Space Marine in terms of intelligence - The Eldar ARE too "great and clever".
As for the comments on the Tau, the Tau are fine. I really should have specified though. Its my fault, as i guess that i wasnt clear on "upcomming Codecies". What i meant was, the ones which will be re-done and released next, such as Tyranids and Eldar, and whatever is comming after that. The Tau are fine. Kroot should remain where they are, after all, Tau need those Elite and Fast Attack slots open for their actual ELITE AND FAST ATTACK units. The pulse rifles are like that for a reason, and its partially counter-balanced by the fact that Firewarriors are fragile and only have BS3. Thats enough from me for now, but please keep in mnd that while this post was slightly aggressive, i meant it in no personal way.
EDIT: Heres an appropriate topic for discussion, should Dire Avengers be changed to be made more unique when compared to Guardians. As they stand, i believe that there isnt enough of a difference for people to sorta say "wow, that looks useful". What do you guys think?
10th Oct 04, 8:37 AM
Dire Avengers have +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 I, +1 Ld and -1 Save (4+) when compared to a Guardian Defender squad.
They cost 50% more (12 pts against 8 pts)
Guardian squads can be up to twice as big and have a support platform.
10th Oct 04, 8:44 AM
Collector, I think you're a bit confused about what exactly pulse carbines, rifles and railrifle stats are. you're all over the place there. RR: 36", 6/3, pins. PR: 30", 5/5, no pins. PC: 18", 5/5, pins.
anyways, Dan, after reading your post, i agree that the shas'ui and shas'vre stats could remain, but it just really doesn't make sense, and in the case of the shas'vre, makes them completely unviable and a waste.
however, the way the new edition fucked up the drone special rules must be adressed, and according to GW will be "at some later point of time". they felt it would not be right to put it in the FAQ, for some mysterious reason.
and yes, i think dire avengers should get rending. as they are now, they're just a better guardian. not really what I would call an aspect.
10th Oct 04, 8:55 AM
No, Sir Guppy suggested a PC with 36", S 4 AP 5 (Normally it's 18", S5 AP5 and pinning). I then suggested it'd be superior to a PR with Range 30", S5 AP5. It then turned out he actually [meant] range 30", S4 AP 5, making it not much of a carbine and pretty much the same stats as a bolter. You may have thought that my second post was in reply to you, but it was in reply to Sir Guppy's post. That is probably where this alleged confusion arises.
That and I didn't mention railrifles. You're I was just comparing the suggested stats for the pulse carbine against the original pulse carbine, the original pulse rifle, the lasgun and the bolter.
Edit: In hindsight, if one gave the pulse carbine 24", how much would that affect their playing style.
10th Oct 04, 12:29 PM
this is a direct reply to Dimension
do you not know how to play tau? It seems you want all kinds of things that are not needed to make up for your lack of using the allowed tools correctly.
Rail rifles in fire warrior squads would be UNBALANCED with the tau options to allow them the shoot at different units and their low cost compared to other heavy weapons.
the stats are fine, yes they increase stats that don't help, but it prevents people from thinking they should use the leaders as hth monsters.
If you think XV15's need another weapon option you must be smoking something really good. Stealth suits ROCK. they are the elite mas fire option that is hard as hell to kill. The jobs that other weapons would allow them to perform at roles that crisis suits and your other options take care of.
Drones need work, this is true. But they were not that good a choice before the change so the changed didn;t really hurt much aside from using shield drones to protect broadsides. I can almost predict the expected rules change " in any mixed unit containing tau and drones, as long as there are drones in the unit the drones count as the majority for toughness and armor save checks". That type of rule is idiot proof and it does draw from both the old drone rule and the new majority rules.
Tau do not need a better hth choice. Getting that close on purpose is not being tau. The kroot form a great counter assault/decoy selection.
10th Oct 04, 2:40 PM
true, with their ability to shoot at different squads it would be unbalanced. must admit I didn't think of that. thats not what I wanted however. What I wanted was some sort of heavy weapon in FW squads, employed in the way that other heavy weapons are used. I agree the target lock should not be made available. and cost can always be worked out. I don't want the RR as seen on pathfinders, I just want a FW squad that has an option of aquiring a heavy weapon of sort.
and I beg to differ about the points you make about the stats of shas'ui and shas'vre. the stats increase the amount of attacks to 2 when you go from shas'la to shas'ui. if you go from 'ui to 'vre, you get a bonus to I and WS. complete bullshit, or rather, this makes the 'vre rank highly superfluous. if 'las could don battlesuits, I'd forego the 'ui as well. none of the stat boosts make the rank worthwhile, with the exception of those made to the 'el rank and the 'o rank. 'vre and 'ui get better at hth. its those changes that might some of the more dim/inexperienced to do exactly what you said: think their XV8s can fight.
as for the XV15 weapon options, it was just a little fantasy, nothing I demand or anything. you accuse me that I'm smoking something really good. I assure you, its the very best.
in the same spirit, tau don't need a hth choice. they don't need kroot either. but those things are nice to have. kroot, are decoy and counter-assault as you put it, NOT true hth. getting close on purpose is not being tau? of course not, but another helper race, or a different breed of kroot could fill that out, and it would not detract from the feel of the army more than the addition of regular kroot does.
all in all, all of the things i listed in my original post were things that I'd like to have, not something that i consider are needed to make Tau fun to play. but they'd give me more options on how to fight. the only things i really WANT, is a fix to the drone dilemma.
furthermore, I'm aware that I'm clearly not as experienced as you are, but saying that I try to make up my lack of talent/experience by wishing for things that are not needed is a bit... arrogant. you go on how this is not needed, and that is not needed, yet at the same time you take the opportunity to buy stuff that is not in the codex but fit into your playing style, by getting a squad of piranhas and a missile turret for your hammerhead if i remember right. now i could say that if you knew how to use the tools you were given in the codex, you'd refrain from buying them. see where my problem with your point is? I want more variety, and you condemn me for it, yet at the same time you buy stuff from Forgeworld, who obviously thought like I did, and just went ahead to create new units and design new rules for them. and don't give me "is not needed" or "is performed already by a different unit". Tau army has no hth and no snipers or heavy weapons in squads. I can live without them just fine, but I won't feel ashamed of myself for thinking they'd be cool and fun to use.
Collector: ah, I get it now.
about pulse carbines: while I guess that a range increase would make them more viable, I think they would never completely replace the pulse rifle. there are so many weapons with 24" range, and having an extra 6 inch encourages using tau as a more mobile army (stay out of enemy fire for as long as you can). personally, I'd rather prefer the carbines as they are now, for they surely would have to increase their price to balance out the fact that they are 24" and pin.
lessening weapon strength of tau basic guns does not fly. they shoot plasma for gods sakes. besides, having multiple weapons with the same characteristics just gets dull.
10th Oct 04, 3:57 PM
When using a wraithlord, it basically comes onto the table top with a large sign plastered to its forehead saying "SHOOT ME WITH EVERYTHING YOU HAVE" and as such, especially with the new shooting rules, will go down in the first if not, second turn most of the time.
Anywho, as for Eldar balancing, I believe that power weapons need to be added to the armoury. I mean, what use is a 2+ to wound roll when they take their 2+ armour save anyway???? Dire Avengers do need to be upped, there's not many Eldar players I know who actually use them. And a couple more psychic powers wouldn't hurt (i mean look at Chaos, they have like 6 major psychic powers and a gazillion minor psychic powers).
11th Oct 04, 1:46 AM
About the ork vehicle thing i said earlier, i never said orks should have eldar and other races exept the newer imperial forces tanks, only their squad options for lootas. I agree with everyone who said orks are to stupid to drive eldar stuff.
11th Oct 04, 2:33 AM
Merfoga - Totally. After all, your always fighting 2+ sv terminators and strength 9 vs. vehicles sucks doesn't it ? :)
I agree with the psychic powers though, i'm sure Eldar will get more.
11th Oct 04, 3:20 AM
Indeed. I mean with all the shooty anti vehicle weapons (Brightlance, Wraith cannon, D-Cannon) who needs strength 9?? We need more powerful CC things, eg POWER WEAPONS FOR INDEPENDANT CHARACTERS.
11th Oct 04, 4:32 AM
Totally, impeial guard should handle like a real army. I started playing two "real" wargames, and if your willing to accept that the imp guard are basically a WW2 army with laser guns, they could do with a huge updating, to make them work like an actual WW2 army, instead of something lame and bland, like they are at the moment.
I'd change an imperial guard platoon to something like this
1 Command section - Make em 8 men, jettison the heavy weapons
3+ Inf squads, 2 heavy stubbers, grenade launcher, option to buy demo charges (Engineers)
Heavy machine guns - Totally critical in the real deal. Should be 6 man crews, AP 4 and heavy six or something. Cause pinning <-- Most important point.
Zook teams <-- Short range anti tank rocket launchers. Like 12 inch range, str 8 AP 2 or something. Make em 2 men, give em the cannot be shot at if within 6 inches of a squad.
Flamer teams <-- Same deal as the zook teams
Mortars <-- Make them good somehow. Mortars where highly accurate weapons in RL, so I'd suggest saying they are just placed in the LOS of the command section or the mortar team, then resolved as normal. Cause pinning.
Command section should be able to call down heavy support - if we accept the WW2 Model, they should be arty barrages and airstrikes. multiple ordance blast templates with a low AP that cause pinning at a guess.
Tanks: imp guard tanks have the suck, as they are pillboxes. What is the go with this. Need to be more manuverable/have some incentive to move. I'd say they can always move and fire their sidearms. However, limit them to 3 MG's (And make em heavy stubbers, not heavy bolters but they cause pinning). Main gun can fire if they stay still, but is really anti tank only.
Second option of tanks is something with NO mgs, but has a really huge (like 5 inch) pinning blast template of death, but crappy armour.
Third tank option. Something that is very fast, can fire on the move, highly powerful AP gun, maybe 1 MG though, bad armour.
Imp guard players could also spend a percentage of their points to by prep fires that where actually effective/consistent. Some consideration would be have to be made for the fact that 2 600 point squads are much less vunerable than 12 100 point squads. I'd suggest a fire at asquad for each 100 points or part of in the squad, but whatever.
This makes the imperial guard WW2 americans. I'd give options to become germans or russians. Russians should have commissars, HUGE artillery barrages at prep time, and an option to replace their rifle squads with SMG squads, but packing very rapid fire short range guns, but nothing on the command squads and loose the zooks and flamers.
The germans have more uberer tanks, but lack responsive arty and airstrikes.
Introduce rules for infantry riding on tanks as well.
Armoured and mech armies are done by
Armoured = russian, you buy your tank and infantry squad in pairs, and your command tank has the command section riding on it. Everyone has SMG's, no support in platoons.
Mechanized = Everyone comes in a chimara, you get one tank pltn per 2 ifnantry pltns. Lose your artillery, unless you are the US model.
That would be a radical overhaul, but would make the imperial guard a much more intresting force.
Edit: Only problem is, how do you deal with the fact this will own low leadership low armour armies, but get owned by space marines.
11th Oct 04, 4:55 AM
Merfoga - Theres quite clearly a design decision there, GW want Farseers and Warlocks to suck at CC. If you want a HQ which fights get a (hopefully buffed) Avatar or the new Autarch.
Cthulu - If you want realistic WW2 games, you play realistic WW2 games. If you want to play WH40K, you play WH40K. Don't try to make it something it isn't.
11th Oct 04, 6:26 AM
The NEW Autarch?? O_O...can someone post details please??? My nazi dad blocked the word "games" on our router so I can't go to the games workshop site ><
11th Oct 04, 7:08 AM
Theres a fairly official rumour Eldar will gain a new HQ, the Autarch, an uber Exarch. Beyond that, we (I) know absolutely nothing. No pics, no rules, nada. Seeing as AFAIK they're still brainstorming and playtesting Eldar codex its not a surprise really.
11th Oct 04, 7:35 AM
Indeed Phoenix, but as i've stated before (about the Autarch), i'm afraid it will simply be the same as an Exarch, but with better stats, ones that arent as good as Phoenix Lords. That would suck, as we want NEW stuff, not "different, but not so different" if you know what i mean. Still, we can only assume. As for the Tau, they do need a HTH unit in my opinion. This is the way i see it:
Every army has their balancing point. Marines are extremely flexible, but what balanced them out is the fact that they dont get any super crap and cheap, or super uber and expensive units, keeping them at this medium point. Balanced, nothing underpowered but nothing too powerful. Eldar are mainly fragile, but that is counter-balanced by their Wraithlord being uber and their defensive vehicle upgrades that make it hard to destroy them, not to mention the excellent equipment their Aspect Warriors posess (particularly Banshees). Balanced.
Tau on the other hand, would not only be boring as HELL (not implying that hell would be boring of course), but they need something to counter that "totally-shooty-army" aspect, so they arent running and shooting, keeping as far away from the opponent as possible. The range of the pulse carbine reflects this, as having a weapon with such range (pulse rifle - 30") can get VERY boring, and not even the new rapid-fire rule encourages them to get close, why would they? The carbine does encourage them to get that bit closer though, and gets them more mobile and active, rather than a static army (like vehicles with ordnance use to be).
I agree with Phoenix on the Battle Suit CC stats and Shas'ui "improved" stats. Those stats should reflect their elite rank in their way of waging war - from a distance with big guns. Why in the HELL should a Shas'o have as many attacks as a Marine HQ with Terminator Honours? Why should a Shas'ui be more CC oriented, when all they are really trained for is ranged combat? Make sense? No. They should improve what the NEED, not what would make them useful for an entirely different role!
EDIT: Also, why give Farseers and Warlocks "powerful" CC weapons if the above mentioned are suppose to be no good at CC? I agree, they arent meant for it (obviously), so why didnt they at least lower the cost of Witchblades to reflect that, after all, the cost of weapons is SUPPOSE to depend on the man/woman weilding it. If they cant shoot straight, theyu wont benefit from it and obviously, it wont be very expensive. A Marine on the other hand is rather accurate, and so would benefit quite a bit from it, and therefore the cost is increased to reflect this. Must like Tactical Squad heavy weapon prices compared to Devastator Squads. In Tac. Squads they're "useful" to have. In Dev. Squads its what their very purpose it, weild big guns!
11th Oct 04, 8:18 AM
You're agreeing with me, not with phoenix. but yeah ;)
11th Oct 04, 8:35 AM
Step 1: Convince posters that I post everything of any merit.
Step 2: TAKE OVA TEH WURLD!!!!!11
And I would have gotten away with it too if it was't for you rascaly kids...
Dan, Witchblades are costed as they are for Farseers and Warlocks, theres no need to reduce their costs.
11th Oct 04, 8:45 AM
Oops, sorry Dimension. Long one, and so i lost my memory of who said what while typing it :). Phoenix, its just that giving a small Council witchblades is horrendously expensive, especially considering that they can barely use the things.
11th Oct 04, 1:31 PM
This is for Merfoga. Dan, I know you don't love stats as a way of proving things, but bite me!! :)
For simplicity's sake, we'll assume a warlock hits a SM 6 times with a power sword and 6 times with a witchblade.
With a powersword, 2 hits result in kills.
With a witchblade, 1.66 recurring result in kills.
Along with with witchblades giving strength 9 vs. vehicles, thats pretty even considering they cost the same. Of course the powerblade does better vs. low T, high Svs and vice versa. you'll notice the actual reason Warlocks and Farseers suck in CC is due to 1 A on their profile which can only be increased by 2 CC weapons.
Dan, as to whether they are overcosted, I think the reasoning is 2+ to wound is actually a pretty major ability, meaning they can essentially fight anything. I can only think of 2 other things with that ability. Combined with inv saves, I think thats why they cost 15 points.
11th Oct 04, 3:47 PM
Eh, the problem with imp guard at the moment is that they are the most boring army to play. The most effective strat I've seen for Imp guard is sit on the base line, not move at all, and fire.
So basically, your average imp guard player gets to sit there, and roll dice.
Sorry, but that doesn'tmake for a very exciting army (I am aware other strats are possible, just not as effective (Nearly as effective) as that one)
11th Oct 04, 4:00 PM
My reasoning behind giving them good CC abilities.
1) They're psykers
2) They need to train their mind
3) How do you train your mind?
4) By practicing martial arts
11th Oct 04, 4:26 PM
And the fact that warlocks can be attached to a guardian suad, giving them a meager chance to defeat their enemies.
12th Oct 04, 8:54 AM
*Bites Phoenix* i agree that wounding on a 2+ is pretty good, what i'm saying is, since the only things in the game that can actually use them only have 1 attack on their profile, makes it so that you require several Witchblades to be fairly effective. Thats when the cost goes through the roof. Blood Angels for example, in thier Honour Guard get a discount on hie power weapons. Why not do the same with Witchblades? But only if buying in bulk? See what i mean. Also, its not that i dont like using averages, cause like i've told you before (and i'd like you to remember), is that you should NEVER rely on them. Yes, do the normal threat-assessment stuff using it, but in my experience every games a bad game with bad dice rolls. Getting the average dice rolls that are expected is a challenge to say the least.
19th Oct 04, 8:51 AM
Give Dire Avengers a 3+ save instead of a 4+ and then I think they are sorted.. they don't need to be beefed that much... just they have such a lack of a save and the same ability to do damage as a guardian that you may as well use the guardians instead... and get 50% more + a grave platform for your trouble...
As for the comments re Wraithlords... you said you didn't want that discussion in this thread so I wont go into it much but I do not see anything wrong with Wraithlords. Sir Guppy please buy yourself a copy of the Eldar codex and try and find something that can take a bit of damage other than a Wraithlord... there is absolutely nothing... Wraithlords are roughly as good as Dreadnoughts.. they are better in some ways and weaker in others... The current rules for Wraithlords make sense in terms of the fluff... Wraithlords are meant to be strong and are meant to be hard to kill... The toughness 8 is spot on... It would be awful if they made them able to die from boltgun fire... that just screws it all up imo..
I'd like to see the Avatar gain a 2+ normal save in addition to his 5+ invulnerable.. ala terminator armour... although he'd need a slight points increase if that was the case... he is just a tiny bit too easy to kill for what he is supposed to be.
As for the starcannons.. I see nothing wrong with these at all... the Eldar are meant to have the technology... they are one of the oldest most advanced races in the universe and they should have such a weapon... please remember those that shoot the starcannon are almost always BS3, so they are not that accurate... I believe this serves to balance the weapon quite nicely..
19th Oct 04, 9:13 AM
Kaksoipiste, i cant agree with you on your Dire Avengers and Avatar "improvements". Dire Avengers need to be defined as something other than a "better Guardian Squad", and made unique. An improvement in armour isnt the way to do this. The Avatar gaining a 2+ save is a rather odd thing to suggest. Its already getting buffed to the equivelant of a Bloodthirster, and a 2+ save would be unbalanced unless its cost went RIGHT through the roof compared to what it is now.
The Wraithlord comment is spot on though. Its the ONLY thing in the Eldar army that can claim to be able to take reasonable amounts of punishment. The reason i said to stay away from it, is because some people go crazy with "its soo cheesy!%^$%&@" crap when its name is mentioned, which i'd obviously rather avoid.
Starcannons, right on. These things arent exactly accurate and are VERY expensive (at 50pts a piece), making it rather balanced.
19th Oct 04, 9:25 AM
The Dire Avenger improvements weren't something I spent any amount of time thinking up was just something I said on the spot.. I try to keep things simple and don't like overbeefing things or wanting too much cause it's unfair and I can't stand it when others do it.
As for the Avatar.. I did say it would need a substantial points increase if the 2+ save was added... and I did not focus on the possible changes it may be getting.. I was referring to the Avatar as it is now and not the Avatar as it will be and then add that save.
As it stands the Avatar is pretty good for it's points... the other thing I'd like to see for it is the Wailing Doom being able to do something once again... it used to negate daemonic saves and I see no reason why it shouldn't still do so...
I would also much rather he had a 2+ standard save and no invulnerable than a 5+ invulnerable as right now he can be easily taken down with low level gun spam as his save is so terrible...
In my books it should take a few heavy shots to take him down and not just a load of little bullets or whatever... So I would much prefer 3 high powered shots to get through without his invulnerable save... than for many low powered shots to get around his bad save...
If that makes sense... should do :P
19th Oct 04, 9:33 AM
Problem is that the Dire Avenger uses the same weapon as the Guardians-which makes it difficult to distinguish them as seperate. Any beefing of stats will just make them "stronger Guardians", unable to escape the Guardian's shadow.
Perhaps they should be changed to some sort of anti-tank unit with Eldar missile launchers; changing the fluff entirely might be the only option. That or limiting the amount of Guardian squads, like one per Dire Avenger squad (like with IG platoons and conscript platoons).
Edit: Adding my old post from before.
"Dire Avengers have +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 I, +1 Ld and -1 Save (4+) when compared to a Guardian Defender squad.
They cost 50% more (12 pts against 8 pts)
Guardian squads can be up to twice as big and have a support platform."
The Autarch is Epic-only for the moment.
It's epic stats are in the Epic Vault anyways.
At best, you can try to compare the Epic Autarch with other Epic units that appear in 40k, then figure out more or less what they might be like.
19th Oct 04, 2:04 PM
Ap on a starcannon at 4 or 3
Its a PLASMA WEAPON. If imperials have AP2 plasma weapons we get them. next silly comment please.
Perhaps they should be changed to some sort of anti-tank unit with Eldar missile launchers; changing the fluff entirely might be the only option. That or limiting the amount of Guardian squads, like one per Dire Avenger squad (like with IG platoons and conscript platoons).
Dire Avengers need something good but this is not it. The 'conscripts idea is excellent but you would get lynched for the first idea. Fire Dragons do anti-tank, Dark Reapers had Missile Launchers in 2nd Ed they just got nerfed a bit (or not really :D ).
20th Oct 04, 6:29 AM
Indeed. "Any beefing of stats will just make them "stronger Guardians", unable to escape the Guardian's shadow." - That is so true, and what i've been on about from the beginning. Its an Aspect Warrior for crying out loud, so why should they simply by "stronger Guardians"? They should be unique and perform a different role on the battlefield, like each of the other Aspect Warriors.
As for Kaksoipiste's Avatar idea again, hes already getting beefed, so there absolutely no point of changing the current one. At the moment he is good value for his points, though he does need a bit of extra protection, but armour isnt it.
As for the Starcannon, it IS infact a plasma weapon like Cailet said, one thats a fast-firing, lower powered version, but its balanced by the fact that only (off the top of my head) Guardian Squads, Wraithlords and War Walkers can use them, and also that its VERY expensive. You are paying for it's use, so it requires no change.
Now that much of that silliness is out of the way, its my opinion that we should be concentrating on Dire Avengers and the Autarch. What does everyone think should happen with the Dire Avengers? How should the Autarch be set up?
20th Oct 04, 9:37 AM
Dire avengers I reckon could use
a) something to show their 'Noble Warrior' style, make them fearless or something like.
b) represent their 'mastery of the shuriken catapult' with rending and/or True Grit.
I don't like the idea of a major change they just need something special. Ah for the days when the Shuricat owned the Bolter instead of the other way around.
The Autarch ought to be similar to the old Exarchs in style but less abusable (banshee exarch on a jetbike=mucho beardo).
20th Oct 04, 10:16 AM
Dire avengers really do need a fix, and Warp spiders could too.
Rending would actually be cool on the avengers, and for spiders.....boost guns/stats or lower points perhaps.
So anybody think that Thousand Sons could use a fix? :umm:
21st Oct 04, 6:02 AM
As said before: An all round balance of chaos< this doesnt mean that all chaos should be weakened :P, but yea the thousand sons could use a fix ^^
21st Oct 04, 6:29 AM
To be honest i think Spiders are fine for now, but might, MIGHT do with a bit of a tweaking, but i dont have enough experience with them to justify that statement, just hard data. Avengers though, as i've said before could use the rending rule, as its not a major change, but perhaps enough to make them different from their lesser Guardian Counterparts (even though they are suppose to be totally different, they really are their shadow). That might not be enough though. Perhaps some new equipment for the Exarch? Which reminds me, what do you think should change with the Exarchs? And what about the underachieving (in my opinion) Swooping Hawks?
Lets get this discussion heated up! - Its a rather important issue of course.
21st Oct 04, 6:05 PM
I'm looking through the Eldar Army List-cannot find any alternative weapon for the Dire Avenger. Rending might work, as might something like Maugan Ra's weapon. Maugan Ra has a shuriken cannon with a built in Executioner, implementing a built in CC weapon for Dires shuriken catapult?
21st Oct 04, 11:56 PM
honestly I think that Dire avengers are fine the way they are, they are supposed to represent the most "jack of all trades and masters of none" of the aspect warriors. By giving them something else you make them in to another aspect.
Oh and orks should not have access to elder tech, it is just to weedy, a wisper quiet gun, no way, I want something with a little(big) bang. Heck even a bolter makes a decent noise.
22nd Oct 04, 5:30 AM
Yeh, but im sure you could picture a mek tieing a shuriken gun to his arm, com on you know it would be cool. Still the most stupid thing for the orks is the lack of looted 'raider crusader/immolator/sob rocket launcher thing.
22nd Oct 04, 6:31 AM
KIL78, we know that they're "fine" if you look at them by themselves, but they really need to be made unique somehow, or maybe just need to be re-organized, because at the moment Guardians seem like the more beneficial choice. Remember, you need to look at the whole army, not just a single unit to balance things out.
22nd Oct 04, 9:06 AM
'Feel No Pain' to work in CC against normal CC weapons.
"So you mean that my 18ft tall Daemon Prince of Khorne can take a Lascannon shot to the guts, and laugh it off. But when poked in the toe by a Guardsman with a bayonet, He squeals like a baby...?"
Khorne Berzerkers to be crazier than Blood Angels.
General Chaos Balancing.
22nd Oct 04, 3:54 PM
see It is by looking at the whole army list that I think they should not be changed,
1.give them more CC ability? Thats what you have banshees and scorpions for.
2. Give them more fire power? Thats the point of fire dragons and dark reapers.
3. More quick closing options/ infiltrate? That is the point of swooping hawks or warp spiders or shining spears and even rangers.
Eldar have alway been fast, and able to hit hard but fragile, giving them a "hard" unit changes the character of the army, not all armys should be able to do every thing well, If you want an "all around" army try some thing like space marines.
22nd Oct 04, 4:11 PM
I just wanted to add that I do not look down on marine players, I just wanted to give an example of a army that does everything well as opposed to a specelized force like eldar, or tau, or orks
23rd Oct 04, 6:17 AM
KIL78, what you're saying is that we want to change them dramatically. We dont, we want a simple, small change that will make them something other than "better Guardians". Why have two units that do the same thing, only one has more options, is cheaper etc? The idea of a different unit is to have them for a different reason, or add some variety if not both. These two do the same thing, only one gets Warlocks and heavy weapons. What would you choose? And that Dire Sword... God i hate it's almost uselessness, though it is cheaper than a force weapon, its added ability is like an extra that "may" come in handy once in every 4 CCs with an enemy with more than one wound, and even LESS often against an enemy HQ. That however, is just my opinion and certainly nothing solid. My point about the Dire Avengers in general still stands.
Also, i do play Space Marines, Dark Angels in fact, but what were trying to do here is make a unit more useful and unique, not an "all-rounder".
23rd Oct 04, 3:24 PM
I understand what you mean, But I have to disagree with you, Dire avengers are just what thay are supposed to be IE stronger guardians. What kind of changes would you suggest to the DAs that would not infringe on another eldar unit, and not turn them into spacemarines.
Just to note, I have played eldar and currently play necrons and orks(though that new SM codex is calling my name). There will always be units that that are not cost effective and those that are way to cheap. that is part of figuring the army list
25th Oct 04, 6:07 AM
And thats what we are trying to figure out, how to make ALL units worth their points, and having each unit perform a generally different (if only slightly) battle task. After all, whats the point of using a unit when you can get one thats effectively "better" and has more options, like heavy weapons? What they "need" (and i use that term very losely) is something to make them stand out AS skilled warriors, other than just stats.
Infact, i just got an idea. What about this: "The skill of a Dire Avenger with his shurekin catapult is beyond comprehension, and thus gains an extra 6" when using it, effectively making their total range 18"." Just an idea, so please discuss.
25th Oct 04, 7:21 PM
I haven't actually read through this entire thread, but after seeign its now mostly involving eldar i'll toss my two cents in. First off, i'll say that my only armies of deep experiance are eldar and dark eldar, however, i really would liek to see an improvement to orks. They were a lot fo fun in 2nd edition, but now seem pretty dull. Dark eldar the ymight as well throw out the old codex and start from ground up again, the whole line needs some serious rethinking.
Now onto eldar, in order of things i am most desperate for in the new codex.
1. fix the waveserpent assualt problem. it is now nearly suicidal to use them to transport assualt troops against a decent opponent. the whole no assault thing means your expensive aspects get to sit out in the open to get shot up by rapid fire. it also makes banshees and scorpions way overcosted. hopefully waveserpents sales will be a flop when its released so they will realise its a problem, otherwise i am horribly afraid it will be over looked. Until this issue is resolved everything else is secondary to me.
2. psychic powers need to be expanded. eldar are supposed to be the top psycher race, however, they now are compeltly eclipsed by the volume and power of the various imperial psykers and chaos psykers abilities.
3. this has pretty much been confirmed, but the addition of an exarch HQ.
4. I would love to see a change in the way exarch powers are handled, i'd really liek more varety. regardless, dire avengers exarchs need a serious revamp.
5. warp spider aspects, the exarch is largly pointless now, so it needs a revamp.
6. shining spears, guardian jetbikes and dire avengers. shining spears need a serious points cost reduction and a general boost, in general, jet bikes are weak enough uts ahrd to ever justify them. they would benefit more if they had some more weapons options. Shining spears need a revamp of the laser lance. dire avengers, i'll discuss with guardians.
7. force weapons and witchblades and the avatar. Eldar need access to ignore inv save weapons, the new armies are getting them right and left, so its becoem a real weakness not to have the option. the old witchblades in secound edition were a lot more interesting with the ability to enhance psychic powers IIRC. the avatar needs to be bumped to greater demon status with the wailing doom once again ignore deamonic saves.
8. wraithguard need to be adjusted, 35 points for them is serious overcosting, especially under 4th edition and the outnumbering rules. they have always been lackluster performers at anything other then vehicle busting. take a look at the pariah stats and abilities, and go from there, that would be far more approriate.
9. targeter for fireprism, its on the box as an advanced targeter, so give it BS 4, bs 3 makes it jsut a points sink. at least with bs 4 its not a requiremnt to have guide on it to have a shot at making back some points.
10. guardians and dire avengers. make the shuriken catipult 18 inches, and you fix most of the problems. dire avengers, give them rending on the catapults and maybe another minor boost and 2 decent exarch powers and they should be good. Dire avengers are supposed to be masters of shuriken catapults, and i think rending probably woudl work well for that. perhaps even make their catapults assult 2 at 18" or assult 3 at 12" thoug hi am not sure thats really needed.
I don't see any reason to mess with the starcannon or wrathlords. starcannon are expensive and are the eq of plasma cannons which did not get downgraded, and in fact were made more plentiful. I'd like to see the scatter laser be made more viable, like maybe 2d6 shots, drop the lowest dice and make the shuriken cannon rending.
wraithlords are perfectly fine as is. armies are typiclly carrying more that can hurt wraithlords, and with the current assualt rules, wraithlords have lost much of their cc ability (what made them strong was the ability to kill the vetern sergent with powerfist then sit back and kill marines. with the hidden powerfist, this si no longer an option and they can be taken down pretty effectivly).
27th Oct 04, 6:04 AM
Hehe, it certainly seems that we're thinking on the same level Wolf13, at least in several cases. Personally i think that Warp Spiders are pretty much fine as they are, though perhaps a second look over their points cost at GW might be in order, i honestly dont know. Having S6 weapons that rapid fire, jump packs that allow them to teleport entirely, then do it again after shooting, and having Surprise Assault, allowing them to dish out alot of S3 attacks might always come in handy, dont you agree?
I dont really have any experience with Shining Spears or Jetbikes, but other than that i agree with you - infact you're repeating us:).
27th Oct 04, 6:35 AM
Wolf - Just going to discuss your points.
1. This effects all armies and all assaults from vehicles bar Land Raiders. You'll just have to deploy your troops near but not right in front of the enemy. Otherwise a skimmer zipping over terrain 12", deploying a squad of banshees/scorpions, the unit and the serpant firing all its weapons and then the squad charging is just wee bit overpowered. Bear in mind theres nothing your opponent could do apart from move more then 12" from every single piece of terrain there is.
If your deploying dire avengers or fire dragons its not an issue anyway.
2. I think we can take it as read this will happen. They started small with psychic powers in 3rd Ed and gradually expanded it as they produced more codexes.
3. As long as we avoid 3rd Ed Exarch cheese, i'm all for a martial Eldar HQ choice which isn't an Avatar.
4. They were fine in 3rd Ed. Due to the rule changes some do need tweaking, defend in particular is useless.
5. They're fine as far as I know. Whats wrong with the Exarch ?
6. Nothing wrong with guardian jetbikes. I've never seen Shining Spears in action so I can't comment, they are bleeding expensive though.
7. Eldar don't need access to ignore inv save weapons. Every new army isn't getting them. Its still a pretty rare ability. I know of 4 things off the top of my head which do (psycannons, GK Heavy flamer, Wraiths and C'tan phase blades). I'm sure the Avatar will get bumped.
8. I'm kinda divided on Wraithguard. I've seen them be extremly effective and also just be a huge points sink. Pariahs just suck anyway :)
9. Whatever. Points will go up a lot though.
10. Why increase to 18" ? They are fine at 12" for Guardians. I wouldn't mind Dire Avengers getting either rending or an 18" range though. Scatter Laser is also fine.
27th Oct 04, 11:20 AM
I love it how people come in talking about how much is wrong w/ the Eldar, but when they get to the Wraithlords they're all, "They're fine, don't change a thing". Wraithlords are just about as bogus as it gets. T8, W3, Sv3+? Christ, that's insane. Considering that vehicles have been nerfed since 3rd E. came out, to leave such a lethal killing machine on the table while SM Dreads and other vehicles get waxed by the simplest heavy weaponry is a blatant disregard for the wraithlord's true power. I like the Eldar and I wouldn't play without a Wraithlord given the chance, but in my opinion these things are WAAAAAY overpowered for 75 points. Play a meat grinder against an Iyanden player and tell me what you think abotu Wraithlords then.
Eldar could use some revamping, if only because everyone else has been tooled up. But they are still a very strong race in the hands of a capable player.
Now, if I could change anything, I would fix vehicles big time. 1st, either make Dreads like Wraithlords or make Wraithlord like dreads. Let's not have a double standard. Second, give vehicles wounds/structure like the super tanks do. Nothing major, just give walkers 1 wound/structure and main battletanks/transports 2 wounds/structure. Then revamp the vehicle tables by changing the wound variants. First, add a 3rd table for what happens thwn the vehicle drops to 0 structure. A 6 on a glancing hit shoudl be 'model loses a sturcture. If reduced to 0, roll on table 3'. A 4 on penetrating would be the same. A 5 on Penetrating would be 'model loses 2 structure. If reduced to zero, roll on table 3. If reduced to less than zero, vehicle explodes, blah blah blah'. A 6 on penetrating would be 'critical hit: vehicle destroyed and explodes blah blah blah' The 3rd table allows vehicle crews to try to keep their vehicle alive. 1 woudl be make a Ld to repair a structure. 2-3 would be make a Ld at -1 or -2 to repair a wound. 4-6 would be vehicle destroyed ala the way 4-6 is on penetrating now.
We did this as a house rule based on teh tables for super tanks in Imperial Armor and it worked great. Vehicles stuck around longer, losing that point sink effect they always seemed to have, yet didn't unnecessarily unbalance the game at all. The only one it was a mess for was the damn Land Raider, but even then they are hard to kill anyway.
29th Oct 04, 3:23 PM
Hmm, the Wraithlord is tough, because all non-Eldar players seem to hate its guts and all Eldar players can't think what they'd do without it.
The answer is, of course, to FIX THE REST OF THE LIST SO WE HAVE OTHER OPTIONS!
Nobody would care if the wraithlord went up in price if wraithguard became a viable option, if there was another power weapon outside a Banshee squad in the WHOLE ARMY, maybe if Shining Spears did a single unsaved wound when charging a tough opponent.
Most Eldar lists are either based around a bunch of aspect warriors (mostly footsloggers) who either perform spectacularly or get mowed down, or a mass of guardians supported by farseers and whatever else the player felt like throwing in. A wraithlord usually makes it into both lists.
To fix the Eldar:
the Farseer needs to get more power options, to bring him up to speed in 4th ed
Wave Serpent needs to be reasonably priced, and extra useless features likewise removed
Wraithguard need a bump back up towards their 2nd ed days, when they were a hard center in a fragile Eldar line, 2 wounds for a slight points increase might be all the fix they need
Shining Spears would benefit SO much just making their spears ignore armor saves. they are miniature lascannons after all. might even start showing up in lists
The Shuriken Catapult is the Guardians' worst enemy. Find SOME way to allow it to shoot without being assaulted by the other squad (probably Smurf) next turn
hmmm, running out of steam here. those are all my worst peeves
the point is to have the Eldar be tactically brittle as they are supposed to be, but on the TABLE, not while before you've made up your list
30th Oct 04, 6:36 AM
I know this may be slightly outside of the box for this topic, but I defeat any percieved lacking in my army list with solid tactics.... *cringes and waites to be hit*
As most of my foes tend to be Eldar, tau, and Imperial guard, my Space Marine army has developed into a close combat beast that tears across the table/infiltrates/ drops into action as fast as possible.
I personally think the rules are fine as they are aside from the quirky stuff like those Tau hover guns. You just have to build your army to reflect what you fight. I would say the hardest games are always going to be the ones where you fight the same race as your self. Only then do tactics take on an interesting quality.
Of course, all of this is well and good if you know what you are up against. But in a tournie, you just have no clue alot of the times. You have to build a well rounded solid force to meet any threat. Of course, this is easier to do with space marines than most races I think.
Having said that.... there are actuelly a few changes I would make....But this is just more on the lines to ...make sence.
Imperial Guard can now...at last....get real snipers that are not in the form of a muffin eaten little bugger. The figs are bad ass too!! However.... they are taken as an upgrade to a standard squad!! Why?! I would allow them to fall into the same catagory as space marine scouts, as infiltraitors.
I would also like to see changes made to the terminators in the chaos and space marine books. I get 2 reactions to termies when I place them on the table. The old school players look at them and all guns swivel in there direction! The new players look at them and wonder why I wasted the points! The change I would make would be to at least give them the sweeping advance. Sure it is heavier armor and all but the servo skelly of the suit is bigger and stronger as well and so it should function just like normal power armor but....BIGGER! I think the fact that termies are elite and fall in limmited number more than make up for a "negative" for this unit. Besides, with the new models coming out for termies, they will lose that "Im sooooo slow robot" look.
Lastly, as much as I hate it... I would give eldar something in hand to hand. I mean, lets face it, I have been wipen my arse with eldar for the better part of a decade. I lost my first game to eldar because I just was not prepared for how HORRIBLE there shooting can be. I lost over half my army in the first turn!! That has NEVER happened to me again. When faced with eldar, I drop 30 termies right into them, and 60 assault marines each squad armed with a power fist and a charecter.....well 2 of the assault have a charecter, but you get my meaning. Honestly is quite horrible. I guesse that is why I kinda find it hard to believe that space marine assault squads in DOW suck so bad because I routinely tear folks apart on the table top with assault. This makes for a HUGE points game of course and I only give you the extreme of the situation. Scale the points eather way and my army basicly looks the same when I fight the shootiest of the shooty known as eldar. So.... yea.... for gods sake give them something. The only way I could make an eldar battle interesting is if I like.... changed my tactics and try to win another way.... Of course.. there are scenarios...But nah, when ot comes to Eldar, I try to kill them, kill them all. If you have faced me in DOW and you were Eldar, you know this. >=)
Lastly.... and I know this goes beyond convention... but I would like to see Tau with some close combat for true Tau armies, as in no Krut. The concept of the game Fire Warrior for the Tau I think is basicly the cause but for some reason, I have a vision of a type of Fire Warrior with sameri swords that will not go away. They dont have to be great at it, but hell, you can have IG, eldar and the other shooties with close combat weps, why not Tau? It is assumed in the 41 mil that every soldier fighting has at least a knife! They are free and in the new rule book there is absolutely no rules at all! Or this and I just cant find it right now. But that is your close combat weapon if you dont have one! =P So I would like to see some Tau knives out there! More than that, lets see these knives paired with a sword of some kind! Or a Crisis suit with a big ass power blade!
But thats enough from me. Just some stuff to consider.
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