Chaos Issues

[Durath]

While I am relieved to read the "Sticky" post from chavez above regarding some blatant unbalancing issues that the Eldar have (which I have protested from the first 6 games of DOW I played online to now), there are some items that need to get addressed for the sake of "positive" balance for Chaos.

1. Chaos Lords vs. Force Commanders:

Space Marine Force Commanders are superior to Chaos Lords FOR LESS REQ. and PWR. Here are their stats:

SPACE MARINE FORCE COMMANDER
Build Time : 57 seconds
Health : 1500 Morale : 600
Melee Damage : 189 - 231 Range Damage : 40 - 49
Requisition Cost : 260 Power Cost : 85
Line Of Sight : 30 Max. Speed : 16

CHAOS LORD
Build Time : 59 seconds
Health : 1305 Morale : 550
Melee Damage : 135 - 165 Range Damage : 40 - 49
Requisition Cost : 270 Power Cost : 90
Line Of Sight : 30 Max. Speed : 16

So, Chaos spends 10 more REQ and 5 more PWR, and has to wait 2 more seconds for build time, for a unit that has less HP, less morale, and is 40% less effective in Close Combat? This is balanced?

In a rush game (and the fact is, in 80% of all Ladder games I play, the opponent rushes), Heros are mandatory, period, if you are going to win. This disparity in ability puts Chaos at a crucial disadvantage in quick games against Marines.

And yes, I realize Chaos gets a Bloodthirster, but in every Online Ladder game I have ever played, I have NEVER had the chance to tech to a BT, much less have the REQ to build one (Take and Hold really puts a time crunch on the game that prohibits this in most cases). Besides, Force Commanders can call down Orbital Bombardments...

As far as Fluff goes, a Chaos Lord is usually on Par with the Force Commander! The same goes for the Tabletop game.

Fluff aside, this is broken.

2. Fix Chaos Starting Vehicle cap!

The starting Vehicle Cap for all races is 2. The Defiler uses 3 and the Predator uses 3. The only vehicle Chaos can make when their Machine Pit is complete is the Rhino (unless they research "Increased Vehicle Limit" before-hand). Against an opponent that attacks Morale, the only effective defence Chaos has is their vehicles.

Once again, the REQ and PWR you need before making your first combat vehicle for Chaos is extremely debilitating in fast paced games.

Possible fix? Make Defilers 2. Space Marine Dreadnoughts are 2. While Defilers are good for ranged attacks, they aren't as good as Drednoughts in CC, so all someone has to do is assault it, and its strengths are compromised. There is nothing about Defilers that warrant a 3. Oh since we are talking about Defilers...

3. Defilers are too inaccurate...

In a pitched line battle, the Battle Cannon shot is as lethal to Chaos troops as it is to the enemy's troops (this applies to the Ork's Looted Leman Russ, and IG Leman Russ). Their shots go WAY too wide.

While I do think the "Scatter" effect is a good representation of the Tabletop game (and RL artillery), I think all three should have a tighter area of dispersion, making them more useful.

[Evan_gelion]

You forgot to include the heavy morale damage the Chaos Lord does. That's the difference. The Force Commander has more brute force, the Chaos Lord has more psychological power.

Don't fire your Defilers when your enemies are in the thick of it; use preliminary massed bombardments and carpet bombing to deal with the enemy, than when morale is screwed up, send in troops to finish them off. Bombardments are for dug in defenses and opening volley's; adjust the tatics, not the troops.

Vehicle cap thing is fishy, I agree.

That's it.

[Gnug315]

The veh cap should be raised to 3; problem solved.

I don't believe you can compare the two cmdrs, and complain until yours is atleast as strong as SM's. How about forced labor? Cultists vs Scouts?

Dunno if u know, but defilers kicks plenty ass in CC (granted, like any other veh (dreadnoughts), they die to anti-veh like marines with rockets). With the ranged attack defilers have, I actually prefer defilers to dreadnoughts :o

[wiseone]

gotta back gnug up.

Plus, a FC is not going to be aided by powerful melee warriors such as possessed, who own in hand to hand. I've seen possessed take out force commanders (though force commanders still will kill a default size unit of possessed if its not backed up I've found).

[Durath]

>Forgot to include the heavy morale damage the Chaos Lord does. That's the difference.

Ok... first of all, Morale damage is not the same as HP damage. It helps ALOT, but it alone won't win battles.

Against Orks, Morale Damage from the Manreaper is great, but they can overwhelm you with numbers. Against other Chaos, this is also great, but you have to face the same problem. Against SM, this is relative, as Marines can recover very quickly from Morale Damage (Sgt. Rally). Against Eldar... well... they are unbalanced anyway (per Relic), so forget even trying to compare. Besides, if the high morale attack is a "Balancing" effect, then he should be the same cost, and same time to build as a SM FC.

>Don't fire your Defilers when your enemies are in the thick of it; use preliminary massed bombardments and carpet bombing to deal with the enemy, than when morale is screwed up, send in troops to finish them off. Bombardments are for dug in defenses and opening volley's; adjust the tatics, not the troops.

When using one of the vehicles I mentioned, you are taking a BIG chance you are even going to HIT the target you send the Battle Cannon against. Thats my complaint. Look at the Whirlwind. Its VERY accurate. The Deflier, Leman Russ, and Looted Leman Russ should be somewhere inbetween what it is now, and what the Whirlwind is.

As far as your suggestion, mmm.... can you say Jump Packs??? This tactic is only good against an opponent that never brings Jump Pack squads (I have NEVER played a SM player who doesn't).

>I don't believe you can compare the two cmdrs, and complain until yours is atleast as strong as SM's. How about forced labor? Cultists vs Scouts?

Uh... yeah, I can compare them, and did. The comparison of abilities of the CL and FC have nothing to do with other benefits Chaos gets. What about Marine Rally, what about Terminators, what about Whirlwinds, what about Librarians, what about Apothecaries, what about SM Scout's sniper rifles, what about Fast Build Ork Big Meks, what about Squiggoths, what about Nobz, what about the Warboss, what about whatever!

All races have Strengths and Weaknesses. You forgot to mention the Flamers the Raptors get. They MULCH morale. I just happen to think the weakness and strengths of the CL compared to the FC doesn't add up. Don't confuse what I said with with what you think makes Chaos great or doesn't.

Do I think the FC and CL are balanced right now? No. Do I think they would be balanced if the CL got better stats. Yes. Do I think this would make Chaos unbeatable? Not by a longshot, but it would help with SM rushes.

>Dunno if u know, but defilers kicks plenty ass in CC (granted, like any other veh (dreadnoughts), they die to anti-veh like marines with rockets)

Defilers are no joke in CC true. Dreadnoughts are better. DoWplanet doesn't have Dreadnoughts Melee stats; but my own experience has tought me that Dreadnoughts outpace Defilers in CC noticably.

Now, you get a cunning player to Jump troops into the Defiler(s) and tie it up, while the rest of his army pounds you, and the Defiler's Shooting does you no good. That fact makes the Defiler's ranged abilites situational. This is why I suggest a Vehicle usage of 2 instead of 3.

>Plus, a FC is not going to be aided by powerful melee warriors such as possessed, who own in hand to hand. I've seen possessed take out force commanders

In the 60 or so 1v1 Ladder games I have played, I think maybe 8 lasted long enough for Possessed to make a difference (and thats with me winning some and losing some).

Dreadnoughts eat Possessed.

Once again, keep the comparison to the CL and the FC, as this is all you have in a rush game usually.

[Evan_gelion]

Alright. I'll try and address all this at once.

First of all, you're right and wrong on the first point about an FC and a CL--and make my point. The morale helps you win battles; but not alone, in a stand up fight. SO DO NOT SEND HIM ALONE! Ensure you have some support, more stuff to hurt his morale, than go in for the kill. He will NOT beat him alone, so have a little back up. They had to make one character the stronger in a 1 vs. 1 fight, and that's how it ended up. Pesronally I see the CL as much more useful against troops anyhow. As for SM rushes; Chaos doesn't need help against SM rusher's. THey're Tier 1 rushing Kings, with Forced Labor and the fact Cultists are much better in the outset than Scouts (higher up this is not the case, but if you we're talking straight up...) just because you use the same strategy over and over and lose, and you think its incorrect does not make it so. Sorry.

Your idea of using Defiler's to deal with Dreads further demonstrates taht you're thinking too "A unit beats B" unit... It's ridiclious. First off--your Defiler's aren't meant to pound jump troops. That's how it goes--but that's not ALL everyone uses; there will always be a solid fire base of tac squad's--THAT is the Defiler's target. Keep something in reserve to deal with the jump troops and pound the crap out of them in a firefight... Or better yet, sneak on them, staying clear of characters and using infilitrators at spotters--just a thought.

A defiler can not beat a Dread in hand to hand--almost nothing can. That's what Dreads do. But that's ALL dreads do--mash things in hand to hand. They're ludicrously slow. Defliers should not be the answer... Dreads are the SMs backbone, just like PSM are the backbone of Tier 2 Chaos (...And seriously... a squad of possesed and a Chaos lord vs. a Force Commander goes badly for the Force Commander, I know that... I've seen it).

Yes, the Dreadnoughts kill infantry in Close combat. That's what they do. The PSM do not crush vehicles. They do not do that. If you use them for that, you should expect the outcome. The squad upgrades with missle launchers are there for that.

You're thinking too laterally, and you're creating a gigantic flaw in your argument that anyone with half a brain can see. You want the CL to be better than the FC... and you want the Defiler to be able to crush the Dread.... The question than obviously falls... WHAT DO THE SM DO AGAINST THE CL AND THE DEFILERS AT THAT POINT?

Accept that Chaos will not be as good as SM at certain things. I agree that the Dreadnought is a bit too meaty for its own good, I really do, but the suggestions you're asking for.. just aren't right.

Edit: as for the rush argument; the Eldar Farseer gets eaten alive by both the CL and the FC as well, should they get upgraded too? Should all hero's be identical, with no differences between each other?... Should we just play WC 2?

[nosajkeram]

I thought the CL beats the FC in a one on one, atleast from my experience.

And as for FS, it can take the CL and the FC one on one as well.

Not sure about the ork BM though.

[Evan_gelion]

Really? Everything I heard suggested the FS was the weakeast hand to hand of the Character's... Huh. But actually, now that you mention it, I remember that FC vs. CL thread myself; the big thing was the CL actually strikes faster...

[Scalphunter]

many a time have i seen an Chaos Lord take out a Force Commander in close combat. chaosss is ssstrong...

[Navaros]

here's my Chaos issues:

1. PSM are way too expensive

2. Chaos Lord takes FOREVER to heal and nothing can be done about that, unlike the other Heros. this is very unbalanced against Chaos.

3. Cultists take 2 cap - that's ludicrous. in 1vs1 when capping points early is essential - Chaos is extremely disadvantaged that they only get half as many "units to cap with" as SM do. and don't say "then use Heavy Inf to cap!" because SM does not have to do that and to split up your firepower in the early game is suicide. Cultists need to take 1 cap.

4. Defiler is way too weak. why the heck is Wraithlord stronger than a Defiler? what the heck?! buff the Defiler a lot!

5. Chaos need Dreads too. Chaos Dreads.

[Evan_gelion]

Uhmm.. Are you sure Cultists are two cap? I'm almost positive you're incorrect there...

[Raith]

Yeah im pretty sure cultists are 2 cap. The CL is aight as it is. As for Defilers, they should definately cost 2 pts, they simply arent as effective as Dreads, dreads have equally long range guns, albeit they don't blow infantry away. I'm a chaos player, and in playing a few SM games online, I can safely say this, anything a Defiler can do, a Dread can do better. Of course the trade off is the dread costs more in resources, despite in lower cost in cap.

[sabyul]

Cultists are 2. Chaos Lord seems to have some sort of critical hit or something, because sometimes he gets random kills (which is awesome!) . Defilers cost a fraction of what a Dread costs (in power, which is the killer in a 1v1 that just reached tier 2).

SM don't even have an answer to the possessed!

[Raith]

flamers arent bad agaisnt PSM, all you need is a lil bit of micro (dancing, nades) of course dealing with PSM is easier if you scout and find out the enemy is doing so, getting a good size of upgraded PSM is rather expensive, I usually skip over the, or just get one squad to attach to my CL.

[StenFLASH]

Durath, you're looking to much at the statistical theory side. Get out into the field and see what happens. CL can beat FC 1 on 1.

Who cares that Dreadnaughts are better than Defilers, THEY'RE MORE EXPENSIVE!

Defilers are extremely versitile and you can churn them out one after the other with ease because of their cheap cost. They're very effective against massed infantry, being able to knock rocket squads off their feet and break morale with flamers while ripping things to shreds with their claws. They hold their own fairly well in CC with Dreadnaughts anyway. In short, they kick ass & I prefer them over Dreadnaughts any day.

Evan_gelion summed it up pretty well: You're too concerned about how unit X goes against unit Y by looking at their stats when out in the field its a whole different story.

[Landser[rus]]

Also...it proven that a squad of marines against squad of chaos marines will morale run...means chaos better in all ways.In real warhammer tablegame..chaos are best army so.They not for me though :)

[Lars]

here's my Chaos issues:

1. PSM are way too expensive

2. Chaos Lord takes FOREVER to heal and nothing can be done about that, unlike the other Heros. this is very unbalanced against Chaos.

3. Cultists take 2 cap - that's ludicrous. in 1vs1 when capping points early is essential - Chaos is extremely disadvantaged that they only get half as many "units to cap with" as SM do. and don't say "then use Heavy Inf to cap!" because SM does not have to do that and to split up your firepower in the early game is suicide. Cultists need to take 1 cap.

4. Defiler is way too weak. why the heck is Wraithlord stronger than a Defiler? what the heck?! buff the Defiler a lot!

5. Chaos need Dreads too. Chaos Dreads.

I agree to all this.

And I also think the CL should be stronger, mainly because I love TT and in TT the CL rocks. Defilers are also muuuch better in TT.

[Raith]

"Defilers are extremely versitile and you can churn them out one after the other with ease because of their cheap cost. They're very effective against massed infantry, being able to knock rocket squads off their feet and break morale with flamers while ripping things to shreds with their claws. They hold their own fairly well in CC with Dreadnaughts anyway. In short, they kick ass & I prefer them over Dreadnaughts any day."

Defilers can't take hits as well as Dreads, 2320 hp vs 3880, sure they can blast rocket infantry away, thas assuming they ever hit, and really unless the enemy is being stupid and clumping up all his rocket troops in one spot, it aint gonna happen. 1 squad of 4 rockets will take a defiler to abt 1/4 of its hp (if i dont micro the squad, and the defiler moves in for melee, if it doesnt it gets killed) 2-3 squads of 4 rockets will have a hard time taking out a dread, not only does the dread pack more hp, it seems to have a far more resiliant armour class. As for cost yeah Dreads are more expnesive resource wise, but in non ladder games, resources (req and power) aren't too much of an issue for me, the real issue is how many units can you field. Id rather they lower the req and power cost of the dread (not too much mind u) but up the cap points. If the cap cost was changed to 3 then the max amout of dreads would be down to 6.

[GeneralElectric]

SM don't even have an answer to the possessed!


1 scout squad with rifles and FC= 9 possessed dead

[Stymie_Jackson]

Uh, commander units have different attacks. Depending on who pulls of what moves can determine a fight...and in most fights I've seen the CL beats the FC.

The defiler is far worse than a dready in many ways...it is high on pop because it is the only walker that is also an artillery unit...it is an incredibly well rounded unit and devastating to face in combat. You can dance a dready, you can't really dance a defiler. Until the dready can get lascannons (at the rare T3) defilers are arguably more powerful overall (less CC ability more than countered by far superior ranged attack).

Cultists taking 2 slots is a bit rough, but you do get forced labor and the best defensive turrets.

PSM too expensive? So are all the best units. PSM can take anything in CC really, except maybe tooled up nobs, seer council or assault terminators...and you get them in Tier 1.

[GeneralElectric]

SM basically more powerful then CSM is because of scouts can carry sniper rifles that lower morale of whole squad in one shot. Cmon they allready kill a marine in one go and they do a 250 morale damage too!!! This is bs, for 1 unit cap.... What all SM players do right now is get a 4 squad of scouts and tech to armory asap. They dont even need marines, in one voley of shots they kill half of marine squad and make it useless......

[Evan_gelion]

I give up. If you can't see that your favorite little army has to have some flaws as well as some strengths, there's no point in arguing this anymore.

[Jack9]

General Electric, you are dead wrong. 1 scout squad (4) with 2 rifles and an FC will DIE HORRIBLY to 9 possesed. You're thinking the possessed are gonna try for the FC first? lol

[Chris]

in one voley of shots they kill half of marine squad and make it useless......

Bullshit. Sniper rifles don't do jack against heavy infantry. You need 2 maybe 3 squads of snipers just to kill 1 marine.

[BeHe]

SM basically more powerful then CSM is because of scouts can carry sniper rifles that lower morale of whole squad in one shot. Cmon they allready kill a marine in one go and they do a 250 morale damage too!!! This is bs, for 1 unit cap.... What all SM players do right now is get a 4 squad of scouts and tech to armory asap. They dont even need marines, in one voley of shots they kill half of marine squad and make it useless......

erm not quite, heres a link to a replay where i face 3 squads of snipers:-

CSM vs SM using snipers (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=41174)

They take out a marine every volley yes per squad of scouts but with the big set up time and reload time its hardly overpowered.

Heres (http://forums.relicnews.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=340) another replay in contrast, i use upgraded cultists with GLs. Equally Effective against SM as snipers are against CSM? Not that everything has to be equal... each scout unit for each race has its potential strengths if upgraded.

[Grizol]

In regards to the first point about the SM Force Commander and the CSM's Chaos Lord. In the game a level 1 FC does 126-154 damage, not the 189-231 you have listed. After the first upgrade his damage becomes 144-177, and then after the second upgrade it peaks at 173-212. I believe I've seen the site you're quoting the info off of, and its a very attractive list, but unfortunately its riddled with errors.

[Grizol]

http://wh40k.mednickonline.com/modules.php?name=Units I think that would be the site where the initial info came from.

Its a nice looking list, but it does have a lot of mistakes on it. I only read the Space Marine section. I assume the others are equally accurate.

[Lars]

Well, I just tested and the CL beats the shit out of the FC(when no upgrades are on). He got about 270hp left when done. It totally PWNS the farseer, but then the farseer is a spellcaster, not a herovshero character.

[Chris]

Aside from good morale damage the lord also seems to 'snare' his target, reducing their movement speed for a short time. Still, I find the commanders stun ability way more useful, if you can catch a Farseer in melee combat he'll really do a number on her before the stun wears off. :D

[peturabo]

But Chaos aren't as hard as they should be.

They seem to me in the game as a replica of marines, which makes it a bit boring. I think relic should of dropped chaos and stuck in anutha race. That's just me though!

Cheers

[Evan_gelion]

Another Replica of marines? What do you call the freaking giant demonic winged beast that jumps out of squads!? A Land Raider!?

[BeHe]

Another Replica of marines? What do you call the freaking giant demonic winged beast that jumps out of squads!? A Land Raider!?

:D lol

[Raith]

no its a replica of the Winged Raider =P Chaos was a good choice, since they are the antithesis to the space marines. An SMs most hated enemy is probably Chaos so it makes sense to me.

[First And Only]

This thread is silly.

CL beats FC 1 on 1 everytime. CL is the strongest starting hero, and it is a large advantage to have to force your opponent to avoid your hero.

The stats the poster of this thread listed were incorrect.

Defilers are ridiculously awesome, but you have to realize that because SM vehicles are SPECIALIZED, they are better at certain things. ie Dreads are better at smashing things in CC, and whirlwinds are better at artillery. The defiler is both in one package, thus it sacrifices some proficieny and durability. It has a cheaper power cost, so that makes it much more easier to afford. Not to mention Chaos gets a PREDATOR at tier 2.

Another thing people overlook is Dreads cannot deal with MLs like a defiler can. Defilers just switch to artillery to stay away from the action while the rest of the army deals some damage, dreads will get seriously mauled either way. Wraithlords do not even compare to the versatility of Defilers, but again, they do not serve exactly the same purpose!

Also keep in mind that Chaos has the offensive and defensive advantage in tier 1, so it's only fair that at tier 2, SM get a very offensive vehicle.

[Spiritech]

The CL is the best character 1v1 at t1 full stop. He can take down an entire seer council(fully reinforced before witchblades), a FC, A big mek, or a FS down by himself, and still have hp to spare to go murder infantry if you so wish. He's the ultimate character killer early game. However, one thing you will notice is that his effectiveness goes down through the game, FC/FS/Council/Mek will ALWAYS beat him at t2/3, be this due to kustom shoota, witchblades, or FC upgrades.

The CL should be able to upgrade to a Daemon Prince at teir three in my opinion, he's far too weak late game against the FC and Seer council.

But defilers, though they do need a cap reduction are fine as is, they're an all in one vehicle, they do anti veh, anti infantry, anti morale, and artillery. One defiler can turn the tide of a battle, one dreadnought cannot, as they are highly specialised.

Predator available at t2? Heh, a Predator without lascannons is like a Chaos Lord without Manreaper, lots of hp, but no bite. They get MURDERED by infantry with MLs, and all vehicles because their cannon/hbs have no real sting against vehicles.

Teir two posessed with upgrades murder EVERYTHING. Morale, Infantry, Marines, Vehicles, buildings. You name it, a squad of posessed can mash it, I quite often send in overwatch squads of possessed to take care of Leman Russ tanks, or other artillery tanks, because with Talons upgrade, they eat tanks for lunch. Dreads are a different story due to their cc power.

On the whole, the only issue with Chaos is the fact that it costs so much for us to counter vehicles, because our vehicle counters are all tier 3, or very expensive in teir 2.

[fgStratus]

In a 1v1, CL beats FC beats BM beats FS.
Every time.

CL also has a slow-effect on his weapon that always works (unlike the FC's stun), making it near impossible for enemy heroes to retreat once they get hit.
The exception is a FS at full health, who can slowly fleet of foot away (and she'll end up in the red.)

[Warlok]

I understand your concern for nailing one`s own troops with cannon fire, but lets honestly appraise what we Chaos players have here - its an *ARMED* artillery piece!

Good God I love having weapons on my "Whirlwinds"... Defilers are superbly flexible. We Chaos people don`t have to worry so much about enemies reaching our artillery... most of the time they don`t want to! I know I don`t when I`m facing them.

To have that artillery be *chaotic* - when they`re assets to Chaos - seems to be perfectly apt to me. Besides, they aren`t that inaccurate.

To summarize, I will gladly take my Defilers to Space Marine Whirlwinds any day.

[Paladin]

Well the main thing is, chaos is weaker than the other races its just hard to point out exactly what it is.

You're high man. Chaos isn't weak. SM and Chaos are the strongest forces. Eldar (Without using bugs) and Orks are the weak forces.

-Paladin

[logo]

First off did anyone mention that the CL's attack is area of effect (according to manual at the very least). That alone makes the comparison worthless as it puts the FC and the CL for different uses. I love the CL early game I think he's definetly the best tier 1 hero (in tier 1). Put him with PSM and you have an almost unstoppable force.

Also are cultists really better than Scouts? Whenever I engage in CC with scouts (while reinforcing of course) I always seem to lose or draw a stalemate. I do think grenade launchers are superior to sniper rifles though.

[tehhelios]

All dreads, wraithlords and defilers should be 3 req, they are way to good for cost 2.

Power fist, claws, witchblades (upgrades for sergants etc) need to work better against vechiles, it would encourage people to actually get sergants and tech abit and overall make troops more viable late game.

These two suggestions are mainly to balance dreads, instead of making the dreads less effective i think this would be a better change that everyone would like instead of getting a bunch of angry sm and eldar players.

Dreads stats are fine, they should be fearsome.

Other than that defilers and obliterators need more survivablitly as in more hp.

Obliterators have 2x times the hp of a terminator and defilers have same armor as a dread in TT...

[Kingslayer]

Well ok..

1) cultist at a cap cost of 2 is horrible. I am thinking allow them a max of 6 cultists per squad, start them at 3 per squad and lower this to 1.

2) Defilers suck compared to dreads... not sure compared to wraithlords. Defilers should be 2 support or dreads should be 3 support (or maybe even both, but hell fire dreads should still be 2 support). Cost is simply not as big a issue as combat ability and support requirement.

3) PSM are horribly overrated. Unlike some units, when routed they have to sit out of combat for a significant amount of time before they are ready to return.

4) CLORD vs FC. Clord will beat the FC in a 1v1 fight almost everytime. SO WHAT. Your missing the big picture. They both have commander armor. Which means both take damage at a slower rate then anything else early game. THE FCs HP advantage allows him to stay in the fight bashing away with enemy a great deal longer then the CLORD can. If i am a FC and a CLORD is bearing down on me, i simply keep him away until he has lost a few HP from the shooting MARINES, knowing that even if his marines are shooting at me, my FC will last longer because i have so many more HP.

Oblits are comparable to termies, no real problem there.

And the BT is just a waste of time and money. Mr FC and his buddy the librarian make short work of him with amazing little effort. I hate trying to run my BT away from the FC and Lib, but they are so strong against it, you have no choice unless you want it to die a instant death. Perhaps boost the "HP received" for the BT when it attacks from 5 to 10-15.

As long as you plan on rushing, i dont think Chaos is a awful race, but i do feel the longer a game goes, the less likely it is for the chaos guy to stay effective.

[Adamzag69]

People keep moaning about the seer coucil to be honest i dn't find them a problem to fight against at all. what i hate is chaos players who rush with PSM, its ridiculous. some1 ealier said that PSM are the back bone to tier 2 CHaos as dreds are too SMs. fair enuf but i can't build dreds at almost the beginning of the game. a unit of PSM killed my force commander early game and they weren't even fully reinforced. something needs to be done about that. and some1 said they r too expensive haha.

[Evan_gelion]

Adamzaga, the Chaos Player has to tech the same upgrade to his base to get PSM you have to upgrade to get those Dreadnoughts. The problem you are probably experiencing is that you aren't generating power fast enough, whereas Chaos doesn't have to have extensive power to build CSM. Perhaps building an extra generator or two early in game will swing that in a more balanced direction.


I don't know about that bit about PSM having to sit all that longer than other races (other than SMs, due to rally) but I really don't think PSM are overrated. They are not the end all, BE all killers, but they are tough and some of the better hand to hand troops in the game, especially in Tier 2. The thing that strikes me about your argument with the CL is that the FC literally has that same problem. He can thereotically do the same thing with the CL that you do with the FC. Your argument doesn't make any sense because the Chaos player is free to shoot at the FC just as umch as you're free to shoot at the CL--and if you trade an equal amount of fire towards each other, the CL still always wins because CSM firepower is identical to SM. So I don't buy that either.

The last bit about Defiler's has been getting to me, because it's a sure sign that people are looking at Defiler's all wrong. DEFILERS ARE ARTILLERY UNITS THAT CAN ALSO SERVE AS WALKERS IN A PINCH. They are NOT Dreadnoughts.

Let me try and elaborate between the three walker units.

Space Marine Dreadnoughts are Hand to hand monsters: The End. Upgrading a weapon seriously degrades their hand to hand power, but keep their dual power fists and they chew things up in hand to hand. They're sluggers, and they're designed to deal a lot of punishment... but did anybody notice how plodding these things are? It's easy to dance away from Dreadnoughts, and there's a reason for it; they can't keep up with anything else in the game. They're tough, but they're the slow, juggernaut kind of tough.

Wraithlords are frail, but murderous against troops. They're the Eldar answer to CC infantry--but they are *poor* against vehicels and anti vehicle weapon. They drop like stones to missle fire and generally don't last long in pitche battles--and never alone. Star Cannons crack heavy infantry like no tomorrow, and they're practically unstoppable in hand to hand ('Cept against Characters) but they are *frail* in the worst way. A Wraithlord will get eaten alive by both the Defiler, and the Dread.

So what are Defilers? Well first of all, Defiler's are cheap, 'cept in vehicle req. They are good in hand to hand--very good, but not Dreadnought good. They are also LEMAN RUSS' ON legs, and that is their PRIMARY function. Massed Ordinance barrages are devastating against infantry--and their hand to hand prowess against infantry is wonderful. Where they SUFFER, where they will always suffer is against the VEHICLE eating monstrosity that is a Dreadnought; remember, Dreadnoughts, especially the Furiouso variant displayed in the game, are designed to tear through vehicle armour-they're made to fight vehicles in hand to hand. To be completely honest with you, a SM Dreadnought would actually have a pretty decent job of tearing up a Defiler in H2H too. ('Speciall a blood angel one) but I'm off topic.

What Defiler's do NOT do, what they CAN NOT do is engage vehicles like dreadnoughts. Think about the weapons; an autocannon, a flamer, and ordannce--all weapons designed to harm troops, both in DoW and the TT. USE them for that. STOP throwing them at those dreadnoughts. As someone stated earlier, Chaos can get Predators at Tier 2-they're pricey, but you can. And a few Pred's can take down a Dread pretty quick. That might be part of the problem.

Dreadnoughts are meat grinders; so don't feed them. I think that's the mistake a lot of people make.

[darkminnion]

Demon Hunter vs Arch Mage !

That doesnt seem balanced either !

Or Mountain King vs Lich King !!

Mhh some imbalance there !!

Yeah I guess FC vs CL is imbalanced !

Not really man, depends how you use him, I think you trying to much to compare SM/CM you should not do that because they are infact 2 different races.

Eldar Far Seer = Imbalance I guess 3 abilitys to start !!

DarkMinnion
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Only time will tell

[CrimsonFury]

Evan_gelion PSM are NOT the same tech level as dreads, not even close.

To make PSM you need a barracks and a sacrifice circle (250\100)

To make dreads you need: barracks, armoury (175\100), tier 2 HQ (250\100), machine cult (350\100).

So thats 525\200 extra resources and a lot longer build time needed just to unlock dreads compared to PSM. Then there is the fact that 1x dread costs 4x as much power as a PSM squad. Dreads are much later in the game than PSM. Dreads are in no way a viable counter for a PSM rush.

[Lars]

But, to make PSM effective the chaos player needs to get to Tier 2 and research alot. But I agree, dreads are not good PSM counter, because you wouldn't have enough time.

A PSM squad costs more than double the req than a dread.

[Rioniku Anjiru]

Let me settle the Chaos Lord VS Force Commander debate.

While the Chaos Lord's damage is lower, it's armor piercing values are very high, which compensates.

The Force Commander, on the other hand, pierces armor a lot less but deals more damage per hit.

It quite like the Assault Terminator VS Regular Terminator in close combat debate. The Assault Terminator does a little less "number" damage, but pierces armor around 2 times as more, which means it deals twice as much damage.

If we take some numbers for the CL and FC, against a regular Space Marine

The FC's Daemon Hammer deals 189-231 damage per hit. It has 50.981% armor piercing against "Medium Heavy Infantry" armor.

The CL's Manreaper deals 145-165 damage per hit. It has 83.2% armor piercing against "Medium Heavy Infantry" armor.

Let's compare their highest damage hit against a space marine :

FC : 231 x 50.981% = 117.77 damage

CL : 165 x 80.2% = 132.33 damage

So the Chaos Lord is better against Heavy Infantry than the Force Commander.

Also a number which I didn't add is that while the Force Commander attacks at a realod rate of 1.500, the Chaos Lord attacks at a rate of 1.000, which basically means for each 2 attacks the FC gets, the CL gets 3.

On the other hand, the CL starts with 1305 HP, but the FC gets 1500 right off the bat, and still has more HP throughout the HQ upgrades.

So against other ennemies than each other, I'd be tempted to say that the Chaos Lord is better due to his higher damage cause by high armor piercing.

But in a commander to commander fight, they are quite evenly matched, as both of their armor piercing values for commander armor is 35%, taking into consideration the Chaos Lord higher attack rate and lower HP.