The Kadesh Will Leave The Nebula?

[kiith mirgath]

"After analyzing the data we collected from the Khar-Toba's sister ship we've been able to determine what happened in the nebula. While the Khar-Toba was able to limp to Kharak, this ship instead must have tried to hide here. They soon resorted to preying on ships passing through the nebula. In time the nebula became off limits to all shipping. They developed hyperspace inhibitor technology to trap prey from far away without leaving the safety of the nebula. Eventually it became the center of their existence and ultimately, their religion." - Fleet Intelligence


"[The Protectors of the Gardens], are this cult of religious crazy sort of.. umm... They're like this cult in space and they’re very monotone and calm and completely psychopathic; basically they’ll never ever bother you unless you do one thing, and if you do that they’ll be your enemy forever, and they’ll devote their entire existence to try and destroy you. So don’t do that thing, basically. But I’m not going to say what it is." - Alex Garden

From this I don't whether the Kadesh will or won't leave the nebula to hunt down any and all namely the Hiigarans who violated and harvested it without being destroyed. And if you think they don't leave the nebula why were there Multi Beam Arrays in the Sea Of Lost Souls?

[GhostTX]

Weren't three of those hyperspace stalling Motherships destroyed?

That seems like that would constitute a majority of they're population. Especially since the one MS ran "home" and Fleet Intelligence never said anything about the other Khara-Toba being populated.

I think they've been eradicated, at least to the point of being less threatening than the pirates.

[Rahanx]

Not eradicated.......crippled severely. The nebula can't be so small that that was the only Kadesh presence therein: they had the same amount of time the Kharaki did to develop and expand, so there should be more than enough population and resources for them to rebuild.

But......while they were the big fish in their pond, they were visited by a larger fish; or to stretch the metaphor, their pond was suddenly opened to the great lake nearby. They will cower and curse and rue the day the Kushan came upon them. And they will not venture forth for fear that they should come upon the Kushan, in turn.

[John Sheridan]

Those were not Motherships, they were only Carriers. They are onyl equipped to build up to Frigate class vessels, so a very small portion of the Kadeshi fleet was encountered. That's my opinion. The Hiigaran's slipped through quickly without encountering the main force.

[taiidani]

Well the Kadeshi had the same amount of time as the Kharakians (not copying you Rahanx) and they also had the immense resources of the nebula. What did the Kharakians have? Sand?
The Kadeshi must have a bigger fleet hiding in the nebula, but I don't believe they would leave their home just for revenge.

[kiith mirgath]

Those were not Motherships, they were only Carriers. They are onyl equipped to build up to Frigate class vessels, so a very small portion of the Kadeshi fleet was encountered. That's my opinion. The Hiigaran's slipped through quickly without encountering the main force.

If they're not motherships why does the Homeworld Shipyards call them motherships, and the reason they don't build any destroyer class vessels is because the Kadesh don't have any to build they have focused on advanced fighters, the Advanced swarmers are some of the best fighters in the game if you ignore the fuel capacity. But I do agree withy you about the main force because think about it the Kadesh have had about 1000+ years worth of freighters to capture passing through the nebula

[John Sheridan]

I'd think that their MS would technically be that structure you see the Needleships being built in. 1000 years of resources would give them plenty of material to build something a bit larger than the Bentusi exchange, probably.

[kiith mirgath]

That assuming they harvest the nebula which I don't think they do, well not in huge quantities. Homeworld shipyards says the motherships are made from bits of freighters.

[Noir]

Too bad most of the info in HWS was made up.

[JAL-18]

If they're not motherships why does the Homeworld Shipyards call them motherships

Because HWSY is wrong, and besides, the Turanic Carrier is called the "p1mothership" in the .big files, yet noonw dares to say that it is infact said mothership. It is called a MS because all the races in the game had to have an MS (for some programming reason or another) so the Needleship could be a carrier.

I don't see why people think that the Kadesh died. You shot up the TC in mission 4, yet I have yet to hear someone say they went extinct. (And there weren't rumors flying around b4 cata either) 4 NSs. Do you think that with thousands of of kilometers worth of nebula and resources, they would build JUST 4 NSs? That is highly idiotic. By the same token, I could claim that killing the Tai MS in mission 16 means the Taiidan were wiped out. (and don't bring cata into this. Cata is a screwy game that shouldn't be brought into this) yet noone says they were. The Kadeshi are alive, you are dumb to think anywise, and they prolly won't becoming out of the Nebula.

I'll stop ranting

[Aradesh]

i think that the protectors have some sort of a standstill structure where they build stuff. i think they LET the kushans go through, but they had to attack them some way. if you unleash their TRUE anger, you will see carriers, destroyers and cruisers galore.

because they live in the nebula, they probably have large civilian structures in there somewhere.

[Maverick_3058]

I'd have to say that it'd take more than just those three major vessels to sustain a major population out there. Hell, the MS could only support enough of a population for self-sufficient colonization through cryostasis. So, a fleet or three got vacuumed, hell of an inconvenience.

As for whether or not they would come out...well, I'm no judge of that.

[OmegaRenegade]

As much as I'd like to see them back, I don't think we will, I agree with everyone else who said that they had a much larger fleet spread out throughout the nebula. But thier whole civilization is based on protecting the nebula from "the unclean". The only thing I can think of that could drive them to leave is the desire to exact revenge on the kushan for invading the gardens and killing thier kin, but I think this is unlikely.

[John Sheridan]

"[The Protectors of the Gardens], are this cult of religious crazy sort of.. umm... They're like this cult in space and they’re very monotone and calm and completely psychopathic; basically they’ll never ever bother you unless you do one thing, and if you do that they’ll be your enemy forever, and they’ll devote their entire existence to try and destroy you. So don’t do that thing, basically. But I’m not going to say what it is." - Alex Garden

"they’ll be your enemy forever"
"they’ll devote their entire existence to try and destroy you"

Their entire existence. The Kushan made the Garden unclean, it will not be their eden again until the last Hiigaran falls dead. That's just my opinion though, sounds like Kadeshi thought processes to me though.

[Baamir Niirfa]

Ahem.

My :2cents:

The Kadeshi will not leave. Why? Think about it. They don't know the Taiidani are dead and they were too scared to attack them. The nebula may have been the reason they didn't get around much but why were they in the nebula? They were fricking scared of the Empire, that's why!

Plus you'd have to be one heck of a writer to make a Kadeshi Crusade interesting. (Hire the writer of Kadeshi Crusade and it might work)

I put dunno cause we obviously do not know. For all we know George Bush could be the ruler of a new Taiidani Empire.

[John Sheridan]

The Kadeshi didn't even know the Taidanii existed. They stayed in the nebula becuase they worshipped it. The entire backstory to them is explained during the SP missions, did you play through them, Baamir?

[SCC]

I remmeber from the single player game the reason they were in the nebula and the reason they did not leave it was because of some sort of great evil. This is the Tiiadain Imps. It shoudn't take to much thinking to realise this.

[Mr-e-Man]

The Kadeshi will come out, if only because they were the most interesting race in HW and will likely be the story threead that ties HW to HW2.

[Skushan]

how could those have been carriers????? they're HUGE! there bigger than the kushan mothership!!!!!

[Aradesh]

your perception betrays you, young apprentice.

the stalk on the behind there is actually motors.

[John Sheridan]

Originally posted by SCC
I remmeber from the single player game the reason they were in the nebula and the reason they did not leave it was because of some sort of great evil. This is the Tiiadain Imps. It shoudn't take to much thinking to realise this.

It was not a great evil. They got lost in there, and then it supported them because they could not hyperspace, so they could not get to a habitable planet or anything. After a long time, they came to worship the place, and consider it sacred.

[Red Kerensky]

well let me say several points
1: Its pretty hard to stay alive without a planet, yes, the kadesh had the great nebula, but the Kushan had a planet, thats a good explination on why there is so few kadesh compared to kushan
2: They never did mine the nebula, their ships are built from wreakage, their "religion" strictly said 'no mining the nebula'
3: If they were fanatical enough to cause themselves to go extinct and leave the nebula and such, than why didnt they just send everything they got to the Kushan mothership BEFORE it reached hiigara
4: they really didnt have a thousands years worth of freighters, for freighters only went through until the traders eventually avoided it, so thats not much material to work with
5: IF there is anything left of the kadesh, they would be so battered that it would take 1000 years to recover if they purely used the resources gained from the few (if any) Tradeships that pass through, the cata timeline is only about 10-20 years after the kadesh being nearly wiped out
6: They WERE the Motherships, if you look in the debris field in that mission there is a peice of wreakage thats "supposed" to be a Kadesh Carrier

my points said, the Kadesh are still there, but they will be neutralized for a long time

and please, dont go rambling off that the kadesh are an uber race with thousands of battle-ready ships, simply, welcome to the reality of Homeworld, and yes, the storyline somewhere did say that all the kadesh are dead, but i discard that

i also would defiantly like to discard the cataclysm, as said, its storyline was way too freaky to be true

[Dan Van Crone]

"Will the Kadesh leave the nebula?"

I don't think so. I think they've lost interest in the affairs of the greater galaxy. Their religious zeal is matched only by their xenophobia and isolationism. They've got everything they need in the nebula and they don't seem interested in what exists beyond it. Those from outside the nebula are, after all, unclean, and I don't see why they'd want to sully themselves by getting involved in the affairs of other races.

That's just my humble opinion mind you. It could always turn out to be wrong. It's all about motivation, baby. For example, right now I don't see myself getting up from this computer for a while, but for all I know in 10 minutes I might need to take a piss. ;)


Originally posted by JAL-18
Do you think that with thousands of of kilometers worth of nebula and resources, they would build JUST 4 NSs? That is highly idiotic.
The Kadeshi are alive, you are dumb to think anywise

Nothing humble about that opinion. At least I know who to go to if I start running low on belligerence.

That is all.

[Koshy]

It seams to me that a race tha even the Empire feared would have had to have many more ships than were seen in the game Maybe they were in turmoil in high command or something about killing their own (in a way) family members.
The great evil may not have been the Empire.

[John Sheridan]

If there was any great evil (and I still remember no such thing), it would be The Beast *shudder*. Damn I hate Cata.

[Dan Van Crone]

Originally posted by Koshy
It seams to me that a race tha even the Empire feared would have had to have many more ships than were seen in the game Maybe they were in turmoil in high command or something about killing their own (in a way) family members.
The great evil may not have been the Empire.

I think that the Kadesh are referring to the Taiidan. It was they, after all, who originally drove the Kushan from their homeworld. My theory is that over the generations the Kadeshi understanding of the Taiidan was blurred so that the Empire became this ambiguous, all-encompassing evil that simply existed and could not be clearly objectified. It was bad, the Kadesh knew this, and that was all they needed to know.

As far as the Taiidan fearing the Kadesh - I doubt they even knew the Kadesh existed. My belief is that the nebula the Kadesh inhabited was like a black spot on the Taiidan star charts. A Bermuda Triangle where ships disappeared without explanation, and while mysterious, didn't justify them martialling a fleet large enough to "beat the grass" of an entire nebula to flush out something that might not be there. I've always imagined that after a few disappearances the Taiidan conducted some investigations - dispatching probes or a science vessel or two which they never heard from again. Far simpler to just avoid the nebula than lose more ships.

Also, the Kadesh don't spring upon your ships in the game until you actually start gathering resources, so I suppose it's possible that foreign ships regularly come and go unmolested through the nebula while the Kadesh hide from them - as long as they don't touch anything.

[ReBeL5455]

what if they swallow their pride and come back to hiigara, only to be denied the right to live there by the Kushan? That could be a big plot element: other groups claiming to be more of the ancient "exile" population returning to hiigara, and the Kushan resisting them.

Or, on the flip side, what if the Kushan try to mend a few fences and go back to the nebula to invite them home?

[JAL-18]

Since ppl have been using the "Kadesh don't harvest nebula, it's sacred" I shall now burst thier bubble:

The Kadesh said the GARDENS were sacred. Not the Nebual, but the Gardens themselves. (Actually, they said they GARDEN was sacred, but I'll give you the benifit of the doubt.) Before you say the Gardens are the Nebula, I'll point you to Mission 8: The CATHEDRIAL of Kadesh, proving at least one spot isn't a Garden. Thye could very easily harvest other parts of the Nebula. Or maybe they're forbiddin to the "Unclean." They Kadeshi never said that they didn't harvest the Gardens and the Nebual........ :p

[ReBeL5455]

remember: in "Cathedral," the Kushan inform the Kadeshi of their common origin, and invite them to join up. The kadeshi refuse because, so they reason, the kushan couldn't possibly defeat the Great Evil that's out there, and through beating the Kushan, the Evil will learn of them and come into the garden. They know there's something out there, and they know they're trapped in the nebula. The religion is a response to these conditions, an attempt to rationalize their condition. Some of the Kushan believed similar things about Kharak too. If you read the introduction in the manual, there's a pretty neat backstory that explains that some Kushan believed that they were placed on Kharak by the gods as punishment, and that trying to leave the planet would anger the gods. They were right, but the "dark ages" between the time of exile and the time when higher technology arose again transformed their enemies into malevolent gods. Primitive religions are often a mass psychological reaction of a population to its environment.

sorry for being so analytical. Its just how my twisted, screwed-up mind works

[John Sheridan]

The kadeshi refuse because, so they reason, the kushan couldn't possibly defeat the Great Evil that's out there, and through beating the Kushan, the Evil will learn of them and come into the garden.

No. The Kadeshi refuse because they must stay and tend the garden, and because the Kushan could not be allowed to leave now. Nobody may leave, because they have violated the Garden, unless they submit themselves to the Kadeshi religion, and tend the Garden themselves.


Ok, this is how it works, exactly:

1. One Prison Ship got lost in the nebula, because of faulty navigational equipment.

2. The Nebula is rich in resources, so they began to harvest it, and build up a pirate fleet. They did not leave because the Nebula was safe, and they could not be sure of finding another place capable of supporting them.

3. They began to prey on passing vessels to scavenge for parts and to capture and hopefully recruit people.

4. A religion developed centered around the nebula, because it had supported them this whole time.

Points on Kadeshi religion:

THEY STILL HARVEST FROM THE NEBULA. Only they are permitted to do so. The Nebula is said to "sustain" them, so they must still harvest from it, but I am sure that they give back as much as possible. For example, the dead are most likely ejected into the Nebula.

The unclean may not harvest from the Garden (hmm...Garden, seems to indicate that they harvest from it themselves, doesn't it?) because they will take things away from it. In order to harvest from the Garden, they must stay there, and follow the Kadeshi religion. Those who take from the Garden unjustly are to be destroyed, and the stolen matter reclaimed, so that the Garden may again be whole.


Also, as mentioned, the Kadeshi must on occasion send forces outside the nebula, because you find MBF at the Ghost Ship.

Hmm..this has inspired me to consider developing a full document detailing the Kadeshi religion and its practices...

[JAL-18]

....with you. It is not that the Nebula is unharvestable, iit is that the Unclean may not harvest it. THey almost tell you themselves:

"This is the Garden of Kadesh"

THey're telling you the Garden belongs to them, the Kadesh. The Nebula itself is not the "Kadesh Nebula" (it's actually the Great Nebula-as referenced to by a number of characters: Bentusi included) it is the "Nebula of Gardens the Belongs to the Kadesh"
Or for them, prolly just the "Nebula of Gardens"

If you want help with that document, I'd be willing to volenteer. PM me with your ideas.

[Dan Van Crone]

My thoughts on this go something along these lines:

I think the name "Kadesh" is actually that of a religion-oriented Kiith. The majority of the exiles aboard the freighter(s) that ended up in the nebula came from this Kiith.

Kiith Kadesh, being the dominant Kiith among the exiles in the nebula, were looked to for guidance by the others and assumed responsibility for the survival of the exiles in the nebula.

It makes sense if you consider the zealousness with which the Kadesh guard the nebula - their beliefs having evolved from the religious mandates of Kiith Kadesh from their very arrival in the nebula. Over the generations, the members of the smaller Kiiths either died out, married into or changed their allegiance to Kiith Kadesh until their entire race became known to themselves simply as the "Kadesh".

The name "Garden of Kadesh" then works quite nicely as well, given that it is indeed their garden. It sustains them and they tend to it. It's a symbiosis.

Just a theory to fit the facts, but I think my rationale is sound, even if you don't agree with me. :)

[ReBeL5455]

...that ancient Hiigara had a kiith system.

everything we know about it makes it seem primitive and inefficient. Remember, the exiles were essentially blasted back to the stone age. Their old ways were lost when the Khar Toba had to be abandoned. Their tribal ways caused centuries of infighting. I don't think the hiigarans could have maintained a large empire with such huge internal differences.

[Dan Van Crone]

Ahh... excellent point. I hadn't considered that the Kiith system had developed purely among the exiles on Kharak. :up:

It's still possible that the exiles that arrived on Kharak based the Kiith system on a similar feudal system from Hiigara, although I am having doubts about that now.

I'll have to dig through some resources to see if there's any pre-exile references to Kiithid.

[John Sheridan]

I believe the kiith system developed onboard the prison ships, if my memory of the manual serves, so the Kadeshi would be a possible kiith. Gotta dig up my manual and have a look.

[ReBeL5455]

"Society on kharak is organized along loose family associations, many of which now include hundreds of thousands of members. An extended family grouping is called a kiith (plural: kiithid), and most archaeologists agree it is a social artifact that dates back before our arrival on Kharak itself. Interpretation of ancient legends and translations of texts found in the ruins of Khar-Toba suggest that our ancestors' journey to this world was arduous enough to break down all social structures except the most basic family bonds. When the power plant at Khar-Toba failed, refugees in all probability fled in small groups of friends and relatives. Harsh conditions and the passage of hundreds of years hardened what was originally a practical system, taking care of your own loved ones first, into a ritualized system of alliances and loyalties we have come to know as the kiith system."

page 21, in case you were wondering.

i would guess that the Kadeshi (is that the plural? I hope so. It sounds cooler that way) would have progressed in the same way, but since the group was smaller, and the conditions were worse, the group unified, as cooperation was neccesary for survival. Religion would come later.

However, if the Kadeshi do rejoin Kushan society, they will probably be declared "Kiith Kadesh"

or maybe just the yellow ninjas:ninja:

[JAL-18]

Actually, it would prolly come first. Religon would be the unifing force to bring them together. And for all we know, the Kadesh have wars raging inside the Nebula. We only saw 4 NSs (3 if you count the mission 7 one as one of the mission 8 ones) if we assume (and there is a GREAT possiblity) that there are at least 100, that's alot of Kadesh.......

[ReBeL5455]

Well i just thought that survival would be the first unifier, and when survival became easier, religion developed to maintain unity. But hey, you may be right

[John Sheridan]

I'm pretty sure that the Kadeshi have near total unity, they are all united under the banner of religious fanaticism.

[Chariot]

heres another question for ya to ponder





where are the kadesh getting their food?

[Dan Van Crone]

Hydroponic farms brought with them on the exile ship? Maybe some from raided ships that passed near/through the nebula?

Perhaps that's why MBF's were outside the nebula when they got snared by the derelict in Sea of Lost Souls?

Just some thoughts. :)

[John Sheridan]

I'm sure they get it from a combination of raids and growing on Hydroponics vessels.

[JAL-18]

Orwecould use crobato's "Kadeshi Cruesade" as an example: Arkships

[ReBeL5455]

the same fusion cutters used in the factories of the mothership could be used to make food.

Chances are, when a resourcer returns a load of RUs, they're seperated into subatomic particles, that way there's never a shortage of any one element. If you can make ceramic armor with a fusion cutter, you can make glucose, protiens, whatever you want. Of course, all food would likely end up being a uniform paste, but hey, it keeps you alive (remember the slop from The Matrix?)

[Seeker]

For the Kadeshi to arive in the gardens, they had to have some sort of food systems abord the prison ship.

So why couldn't they just keep the food systems, it would have to be duplicated on all of the major ships of course.

They could have added to it from other ships that joined them (it never said that no one did).

[Admiral Riif-Sa]

I don't think Kadesh it's the name of a kiith, I "stumbled" into this info, Kadesh is a Biblical name that means: Holiness...
Think about it... Garden of Kadesh... Garden of Holiness. And I also found out that it's associated with the word "Pessach" wich basically was a fete celebrating the exodus of Jews in Egipt, an EXODUS!, the Kushan were exiled from their Homeworld. Just a thought though, I might be mistaken.

[ReBeL5455]

You may be right, but regardless of what they call themselves, they are the residents of kadesh, therefor the name of their home is an appropriate name for them

[John Sheridan]

The call the nebula that, it was not called that before they arrived. It was simply known as The Great Nebula.

Me and DVC are working on hammering out a history and society paper on the Kadesh, We're going to make sure we don't contradict the manual or game on this, so don't worry.

[Dan Van Crone]

... and we're going to try to make sure it doesn't suck. :)

[No Surrender]

When the Kedeshi Were initialy stranded they probabbly didn't have PDA tech so that they could break down the nebula. The Kushan didn't have that kind of technology when they were exiled. It said in the manual (did any of u read that?) it said that even the most advanced of the Kiiths, Kith Nabbal only had STEAM power tech ans CHEMICAL explosives. I would say that the Kushan when they were exiled only had Tech that was mabe 1 or 2 hundred years ahead of us. I don't think they had the PDA, if they Did they would not be raiding ships for supplies. the only reason they raided ships in the first place was because you can't eat or drink the nebula. It may have been a source of enery but hod do u live on energy alon with no food or water?

:hw: ViVa La Homeworld :hw:

[ReBeL5455]

The Kadeshi had the ship they were exiled in, and all of the technology that came with it. The Kharakid didn't. The ship they were exiled in was abandoned before their recorded history begins. The exiles in the nebula had a headstart technologically, but the disadvantage of not having a planet to live on. And, with ingenuity, a fusion drive could probably be reworked into a crude phased dissassembler array. After all, a fusion torch would simply be a fusion engine with very tightly focused exhaust

[John Sheridan]

I just realized that it's never actually said that the Kadeshi don't live on a planet. The nebula is huge, and there would be many many solar systems inside it.

I do still think they live in space, though.

[Vijil]

I too am working on the history and society paper for the Kadeshi. It's my job to give it some visual appeal. Here's a sample Kadeshi footsoldier:

Kadeshi Soldier (http://server2044.virtualave.net/wise-dude/vijil/soldier2_lo.jpg)

Personally, I do think the Kadeshi would leave the Garden, if severely provoked. Even if it were not condoned by the Kadeshi authorities, there would probably be Taleban style extremist groups within the Kadeshi ranks, who would be all too happy to hunt the Hiigarans down.

[ReBeL5455]

That's a seriously badass picture. It does look like the same design style the Kadeshi use. I wish I could draw like that.

The Kadeshi are very insular. They probably want to hunt down hiigarans, but either fear of leaving or a desire to stay keeps them in the nebula. Here's an idea: They could be forced out of the nebula. How or why I can't really reason, but it might happen. After all, the exiles are central to the story of HW, and the Kadeshi ARE more of the exiles, so they might be important enough to bring back.


I just had another thought: What if the Hiigarans get into some deep trouble and need the strength of the Kadeshi fleet to pull them out, and go to the nebula for help?

I also think they live in space. The derelict exile ship was apparently a place of comfort, as the fleet retreated to it when things went badly. I don't know why this seems significant to me, but it does.

Hey, and while I'm free associating, it just occurred to me that Khar-Toba wasn't the name of an exile ship. It's Kharakid for "First City," and refers therefor to the city built in and around the ship.

[maesboy]

I think those guys would never leave the nebula.

But can you imagine what would happen if the beast encoutered the Kadesh while sniffing around in the nebula.
(Just imagine that those races are present in HW2 )
I think you don't want to meet the beast advanced swarmers

My guess is that those NS's would be assimilated and anyone who dares to enter the nebula can not hyperjump and that the MS will be assimilated piece by piece.

Also my opinion about a planet in the nebula isn't the right choice, I think they have a huge immobile structure (built from wrackages of captured ships) from where they create their ships and where the population lives and breeds.

But i don't think we will see the Beast again in HW2, the Kadesh however ......

[John Sheridan]

*studiously avoids thinking of the beast in HW2*

Actually, I was wondering because the Sea of Lost Souls is just on the outskirts of the Garden, and that's where you find the Ghost Ship. If the Ghost Ship aliens returned, maybe the Garden is supposed to be their home, and the Kadeshi have to flee, and ask the Hiigarans for help in retaking their home.

[Vijil]

Very interesting point, it would make for a really interesting story. That could even result in peace being made between the Kadeshi and the Hiigarans, which would be nice since they were all exiles.

[ReBeL5455]

I hope they come back. There was nothing in HW SP more beautiful than watching all 18 of your captured Multi-beam frigates opening fire at the same time.

[John Sheridan]

I had 19, rebel :tongue:. Could you believe how fast those babies took down strike craft? Screw Assault Frigates. Friendly fire is always a problem though.

If the Hiigarans and Kadeshi made peace, it would rock, especially since that would pave the way for ships built from the fusion of Hiigaran and Kadeshi design philosophy.

Swarmer Bombers!!! W00T!!

[Vijil]

I may draw some...

Muahahaha!

[Aradesh]

or better ...

CLOAKED SWARMERS

[CruiserCarrier]

Their main purpose is to protect their home, the nebula, from the "unclean." That is their main purpose. I don't think they would come out. They are scared of the Taidan, so they stay in their little nebula amassing ships and resources in case of an attack. Obviously, those were not the only ships the Kadeshi possessed. There must have been much more. I wouldn't be surprised if the Kadeshi have their own planet somewhere in or near the nebula. The mothership can barely hold a small population, let alone an entire planet of people. What makes anyone here think three carriers can house all that people? Their population is greater than the Kushan, at least from the number of transport "Khar-Toba" ships were revealed by the Bentusi.

They are scared of the Taidan, but the Taidan are scared of them. "No one returns. Even the Taidan fear the nebula." If the Taidan know, why wouldn't they just attack? If the Kadeshi were comparable with Taidan fleet power, I think they would be formidable if they left the nebula.

[John Sheridan]

*sigh*

The Kadeshi are NOT afraid of the Taidan. Present me with one quote or something that says this, please Cruiser.

[CaptainCLE]

I think that the Kadeshi would leave not because of what the Hilgarains did, but the president sent. After all, the Mothership made it out alive, and they were a rather young space faring society. While they might not have done much damage, it could have set a precident. If so, maybe other races are pushing into the nebula. What would happen if a bandit kingdom or a new race waged war on the nebula knowing that it was possibly sucessful? So, the Kadeshi could either ask for help or seek revenge on the Hilgarians.
Of course, the plotline with that would involve a lot of races, and possibly the ability to play as more than one race. First, you could play as the race kicking out the Kadeshi, then the Kadeshi, then the Hilgarians, with even more. Not only would that be good for single player, but multiplayer as well.

[CruiserCarrier]

"From you they will learn of us and come here. This must not be allowed to pass."

I'm not sure about the second sentence, but the first is accurate. The second sentence is similar. It is the mission in the Cathedral of Kadesh. That quote says it all. They know who the Taidan are and they haven't forgotten their ancient heritage. They are scared of the Taidan, as they know it is the Taidan that banished them.

[Seto]

Oh! Kadeshi Side Story!

See the Kadeshi react of news of the Taidan defeat!

Witness the intense Kadeshi Civil War!

Fight the incursion of Pirate and Taidan fleets!

Experience the Reuniting of the Kadeshi Clan!

Will the Kadeshi reunite with their Homeworld Brothers?

Sounds like a neato expansion disk to me - say 15 to 20 various length SP missions. New tech for the Kadeshi (different resource gathering), different ships, etc.

[John Sheridan]

Heh, I never let the dialog get that point, Cruiser. I always attacked prematurely.

The Taidan are not the reason that the Kadeshi stay in the nebula, they just don't want the Taidan to amass an assault against them. Even if the Taiidani were gone, they'd stay in their nebula.

The Kadeshi wish to avoid confronting the Taiidan not because they fear them, but because they wish to avoid an open confrontation in the nebula. Can you imagine how much harvesting the Taidan would do in the region as part of a major assault?

I doubt the Taidan could ever have conquered the nebula without pulling in forces that should be keeping other regions in line, but it would be costly to the Kadeshi to defend such an attempt.

Would you want the greatest evil in your history to discover the location of your eden? Would you care if you could turn back their assault? They would trash the place anyway.

[Vijil]

Go to my thread, read my bit on Kadeshi priestesses, then come back.

Done?

Methinks the interaction and possible friendship between a Kadeshi priestess and say Karan would make a great plot device.

[Dan Van Crone]

Originally posted by CruiserCarrier
"From you they will learn of us and come here. This must not be allowed to pass."

Your quote is very close. ;)

I think the Kadesh have lost sight of who the Taiidan really are.

Sure, the Taiidan were the race that exiled their people 13 generations ago and are responsible for them winding up in the nebula, but I think in all those years and through all of their religious machinations, the Kadesh no longer identify the "evil" as Taiidan or any other beings... the evil is simply they.

Who condemned our race?

They did.

Who slew our forefathers?

They did.

Who banished us into space?

They did.

Who are they?

They're just they. Them. The evil ones. No more tangible to the Kadesh than our own religious antagonists are to us. Satan, the devil, whoever. We've given them a name and face, but no one really knows for sure. However a lot of people will tell you that they exist. And they're to be feared.

Don't sleep with your neighbours wife, or they will make you pay.

Don't leave the nebula or they will make you pay.

Just my thoughts. ;)

[CruiserCarrier]

Aw, very phylisophical as always, Dan? Yes, they wouldn't leave the nebula no matter what happens. No, no one with half a sane brain would want an ancient enemy trashing their place up. Im just saying that the Kadeshi are aware of who "they" are. They know that "they" are the Taidan, but are scared to the point of not mentioning their names.

[Admiral Riif-Sa]

Originally posted by CruiserCarrier
"From you they will learn of us and come here. This must not be allowed to pass."

They just didn't wanted the Taiidan to go and defile their "Holy place", the Great Nebula. The Kadeshi don't fear the Taiidan! IMHO, I think the Kadeshi would kick some Taiidani ass! :devil: Just look at those MB Frigates spittin' ion particles at you! :D

Just imagine a Kadeshi Heavy Cruiser... hmmm :insane:

[kiith mirgath]

If the Kadesh have a planet why is their prison ship floating in space then?

[John Sheridan]

They aren't using it any more, mirgath. Haven't for centuries. They trashed it at the same time they rejected all Hiigaran custom and truly became the Children of Kadesh.

[kiith mirgath]

If there was a planet in the nebula the Kadesh would have to land on it just like the other exiles on Kharak because they probably don't have escape pods or anything.

[John Sheridan]

I don't think the Kadeshi would live on a planet given the choice, like the Bentusi. Living on a planet would partially remove them from the nebula, and they don't like to do that without good reason.

[turanic prowler]

well i voted vor they will leave the garden because they realized what the kushan was so i think they will allie

[AngryRuski]

Ok people you forget that by the description...NO ONE EVER made it out of the nebula alive.

During the Homeworld campain taiidan fleat only encountered 7 carriers and 200 fighters and about 14 multi-frigates and 30 fuel pods.

Kushanian fleats were wiped out regardles of size. DO you people REALY think they were thretened by a taiidan fleet of maybe 30 frigates, several crusers, no carriers or battleships and about 100 fighters?!?!? They are the SAME race as Taiidan so i recon they just let them through just to piss of the Kushanians and to improve the grandeour of the Taiidan fleet. Rember they ask taiidan to join them???

For a thousand years of space fearing they could ammas a Huge arsernal because unlike the teruni raiders. + NONE of there carriers were destroyed.

Also the Kadeshian technology is the most advanced.

their carriers function as jammmers, sensor arrays, base of opperators, hyperspace inhibitors, CRUSERs. Thier carrriers carry more weapons than Taiidan cruser

Their multi beam frigate is althrogh less powerful than any ion-frigate is fare more effective aggainst faster ships and MUCH faster too!

There fighters are a pinacle of fighter tech. despight their low fuel capasity.

IT IS obvipous that they have heavier ships to match agganst drednoughts.

I recon they LIKE the taiidanians and will eventualy ally with them.

[John Sheridan]

The carriers don't carry heavier weapons than a cruiser, or even a destroyer, i don't think.

Otherwise, I agree.

[Shaitan]

I believe that if the Kadesh have been sitting comfortably all this in the Nebula why would they ever bother leaving?

They have enough technology to kick anybodies butt that decides to come along and say hello so they aren't going to feel intimidated about another civilisation expanding their borders around the entirety of the nebula. As long as they don't decide to take a sight seeing trip the Kadesh would not bother about them because they have everything they need already in their own backyard.

The only reason why they would leave is if;
(a) All available resources have been exhausted and nobody wants to trade.
(b) They finally decide to take interest in everybody else and decides to ally themselves just for the sake of kicking ass for no personal reason.
(c) A new race moves into the neighbourhood who is more technologically advanced and kicks them out.

Choose one... each one is just as unlikely as any other.

[ShibbyWeez]

Yeah, if you subtract the big needle (which didn't have much mass) those things aren't that huge. Let me throw in another idea other than the 'They'd want to exact revenge' they might have attacked the kushan simply because they were scared, scared that they were there to destroy them, or they were there as scouts. But in reality, they were only there to hide from a common enemy. I think the Kadesh might have been kind of confused that they weren't attacked after all this time. They might have researched some and found that they are, in fact, kin with these Kushan folk. Perhaps they might want to venture out and seek the kushan out with questions.

[John Sheridan]

Shaitan: There is also the option of religious, obsessive vengeance. The Kadeshi imagine themselves the tenders of Eden, and all those who come to it and not join them are spoiling and defacing Eden. Defacing Heaven itself. They'd be pretty pissed.

Shibby: I don't think so. They have forsaken the old Hiigaran beliefs, and assumed worship of the Nebula. They see all those that come by and do not stay as evil despoilers of Heaven. They are unlikely to see past such a dogmatic vision without some catastrophe, and the Kushan strike does not qualify, in my opinion.

I've already said that personally, I see them leaving for Shaitan's reason (c), the Ghost Ship aliens, and joining with the Hiigarans to drive them out.

[the buggers]

heres another question for ya to ponder

where are the kadesh getting their food?
where is any capship getting their food? i never see a destroyer dock with the momship.


I just realized that it's never actually said that the Kadeshi don't live on a planet. The nebula is huge, and there would be many many solar systems inside it

i think it would have planets but they wouldnt be very livable. after the stars explode and make a nebula any planets in there would likely have their graviety pull in all sorts of gasses that the nebula is made from. this would make the planet like venus; totally unlivable.

but even if the nebula didnt have planets then im sure they would have some minor planets (really big astroids ex: eros) these u could etheir put a base on or harvest them instead of the neb itself.

i think the khar toba's sis ship is there cuz thats where their drive failed. if the khar toba's can fail then y not the others? the three there are just like a guard or a bunch of warlike priests. every1 else is say fighting some other group in the neb


some1 please send me a link 2 that story evey1 keeps talking about and tell me when that thing by DVC is done. thanks




hey i just realized this is my longest post ever...... ok ill shut up now

[Vijil]

Whoa, major bumpage.

[JAL-18]

WHY did you do this? Now the thread'll be locked! Next time start a new thread and link to this one......

(Note: PLEASE don't lock this....let it die......again.......please?)

[Retroboy]

after the stars explode and make a nebula any planets in there would likely have their graviety pull in all sorts of gasses that the nebula is made from. this would make the planet like venus; totally unlivable.
Some minor corrections.

Any planets close enough to the nebula to get so much as a tiny whiff of the resulting gas cloud would have been bombarded with intense radiation and probably completely sterilized well before the source nova turned into the nebula. Any that were close enough to get a good amount of the gas cloud would have had their original atmospheres completely annihilated by the blast wave. An excellent and recent SF series by Greg Benford postulated what would happen if our nearest star, Alpha Proxima, went nova. According to the "real" science in the book, Earth would have a pretty durned hard time of it.

Of course, planets could eventually drift back into the nebula much later, but they'd be starless rogues. Even then, the amount of nebular gasses they'd be exposed to and soak up would be very small, with most of it being elemental and non-poisonous - hydrogen, helium, carbon, etc.. Nebulae are very VERY big and not very dense at the edges.

-- Retro

[Ammon Ra]

-Nebulae are not the results of supernova...they can be the results, but normally they are the beggining og a system...the nebulae slowly pulls itself into itslrf, untill a proto-sun forms and gasses, carbon, silicon ect form the proto plants...so they are in a proto solar system......

i agree that nabulae can be very big (huge would be more apropriate) so i don't think that the Kadeshi were erradicated...i mean its unlikly that their entire "civilization" was in the pin ships, so there should be more kadeshi out there...

also, the ghost ship latter in the SP game... its "millions of years old", as is the naggaroth in cata...similarity??? Note: there was a multi-ion ship there so they did explore outside of the nebulae...

anyway... i don't thoink that they will leave the nebulae any time soon...b/c they got crushed by the KUshan (hiigaran) force, and the reminents will proly...erm definitly regroup, rebuild their forces, and then if their hate was still great enough (religious fanatics....) they would then proly go out kick sone Hiigaran behind....maybe untill the T-mat come in and spoil their day...

also, the Multi-Beam frig....its size, relative to Kushan and taiidani ships. is MUCH smaller...so they must have better ion cannons... but the armour isn't as thck....but its the power punch thatr the Kadesh are after...
1)ion frigates....very powerful....
2) feul pod...powerful...
3) swarmer....Uber powerful...low feul...don't need much...feul all around ships...F. pod taked gasses and turns to feul...
4)Adv. swarmers.....same, as swarmer, except less powerful, more feul, 4 guns...
5) Uber uber MS....2 ions, "ramming/batting cap ships" ans 12 rail guns.....
they put all their effort into firepower so to destroy the enemy as fast as possible...thats all...

[yasotay]

If they leave the Garden then who will protect what is left?

[the buggers]

if they leave (which i dont think will happen) they would only send out 1 or 2 needleships

[JargonFilter]

isn't this a really old thread? I hope they come into HW2. Even just a tiny bit would be cool.

[yasotay]

Well there have been about 354 threads on this topic since I started, but hey its still fun.

Necessity is the mother of invention, so if enough of the Garden was consumed by the Higarian interlopers and the Kadesh are as fanatic as we are lead to believe, maybe they will start striking out. Maybe the Kadesh have figured that the defend the Garden needs to be expanded since an internal defense did not work.

Well since we are lead to believe the HW2 will be very mod'able I would hope one of the Mod teams would reintroduce the Kadesh if Relic does not.

[Retroboy]

If it's THAT moddable, why not simply introduce OTHER cultures that were left over from the original exodus?

-- Retro

[yasotay]

Retro, good point. If it is that moddable then I would hope that after a while we will see more races. But if the engine can only handle so much (don't shot me I know zip about code) I vote that the Kadesh get in at the risk of loosing others.

[JargonFilter]

Yes, it is still fun to talki about, I even started this kind of thread a couple months back. Relic had better put them in the game :)

--pimpster

[AcolyteOfDeath]

I have questions about the Kadeshi History/Society dossier. Will it be in PDF format like the Kiith descriptions and history in the cd-manual? When will you be finshed? Have you already? If so, please give me the link.

[yasotay]

I posted this in the MS thread then thought maybe it should go here as well.
Perhaps our protagenist, having trashed their brothers house (The Garden) are going to set off to bring them home. Still lots of mean folks left in the galaxy. Then all the Kadeshopils in HWland can have their Kadesh and fight with them too. "The Great ReUnification". Of course the Imperials would want to stop this from happening as it would foil there plans of reconquest, especially since both the Higarians and Kadesh are relatively weak and divided when we left them....

[Vxsery]

To begin with, the Kadesh MS is called the Neddle Ship, can anybody wonder why?

Secondly, the Kadesh got food and parts for those that went throught the nebula. Thats why they prayed, because if they didn't, the gods woud not send them food or parts.


Originally posted by CruiserCarrier
"From you they will learn of us and come here. This must not be allowed to pass."

I'm not sure about the second sentence, but the first is accurate. The second sentence is similar. It is the mission in the Cathedral of Kadesh. That quote says it all. They know who the Taidan are and they haven't forgotten their ancient heritage. They are scared of the Taidan, as they know it is the Taidan that banished them.

*sigh* just to let you know, if you listen closely to the line before that, or somewhere around that speech, they will mention "the turanic Raiders," not the Taidan. And besides, they were bad enough to scare away the bentusi. If they knew the Taidan, there would be no war.

And last, to address the topic, yes, they will. like i said, they were bad enough to scary the bentusi, and the fleet you fought was a small portion, because if it was the whole thing, you would know why the bentusi was afraid of them. so, they will have to go out, when they get alot of food, and learn how to farm in some garden in the Neddle Ship, or something, they will go out and get revenge on the Kith, and maybe, through the plot of HW2, they will become your allies.

[Retroboy]

And besides, they were bad enough to scare away the bentusi
No, they were mysterious enough to scare the Bentusi.

Or rather, the Nebula was. The Bentusi didn't even know of the existence of the Kadeshi. They just avoided the area because anything that went in didn't come back out.

the Kadesh MS is called the Neddle Ship, can anybody wonder why?...uh ...it was built by a guy named Ned?

-- Retro, who can't help but take advantage of bad spelling on occasion.

[Enrique]

I'd say that they will leave the nebula someday. You cannot stay in one place forever, either resources runs out or someone comes to kick your ass away from where you are.
Since the Kushans made their epic journey back to the homeworld the fact that they managed to get through the nebula alive will spread.
Someone will launch mass-attack waves at the nebula and wipe the Kadeshi out.
Thats if the Kadeshi don't either flee, or have a huge mother moon class ship, type the moon of doom in Cataclysm with many many überweapons.
If that not happens their resources will run out and they will have to move along to another nebula or solar system.

[kiith mirgath]

I'd say that they will leave the nebula someday. You cannot stay in one place forever, either resources runs out or someone comes to kick your ass away from where you are.

The Kadesh don't harvest the nebula they salvage the ships that risked to pass through it, also the Kadesh won't leave somewhere they worship that has protected them from the "great evil" for so long especially when they are so fanatical about protecting it.

[the buggers]

*sigh* just to let you know, if you listen closely to the line before that, or somewhere around that speech, they will mention "the turanic Raiders," not the Taidan. And besides, they were bad enough to scare away the bentusi. If they knew the Taidan, there would be no war.

this is half true. the turanic raiders were the ppl who came into the neb before we did. not the ones who drove them there.

[StarAdmr. Nick]

uhhh... just a thought but they are probably getting alot less traffic in the nebula now that war has broken out- I mean, with that, I doubt much commercial traffic has continued.

That might force 'em out.. but I think the last place they would go is hiigara- that would be the place they remember as bad and the begining of there troubles

UNLESS! unless they have some wacky religous belief that they shall return... what if they hear about the fall of the taidan, and realise that the kushan won? maybe they will come to join and return home??

Maybe HW2 is the protagonist going to find the kadeshi and help them return home? that would explain the new mothership...

NM

[yasotay]

StarAdmr. Nick.....

A brilliant idea, our protagonist going to save their brothers. Might explain all the nebular backgrounds in the HW2 pictures...

[Vxsery]

Originally posted by the buggers

this is half true. the turanic raiders were the ppl who came into the neb before we did. not the ones who drove them there.

i know the Taiidan were the ones that got them there. they also got the Kushan on that desert planet they live on before the found out about Higara. i didn't say anything about the turanic raiders putting them there. and if you think well, you can figure out that the Kadesh don't even know the Taiidan got them there to begin with.

[kiith mirgath]

Tiadain

ITS TAIIDAN


UNLESS! unless they have some wacky religous belief that they shall return... what if they hear about the fall of the taidan, and realise that the kushan won? maybe they will come to join and return home??

I think if the Kadesh heard about the fall of the TAIIDAN they proabbly wouldn't believe it, just another trick by the their "ancient enemy" to destroy them

[Metathaix]

The Kadesh are Hiding from a great evil so it would make sence to me if they didn't want there little hidey hole being consumed so that the great "Evil" would be able to locate them quickly with conventional sensors.

They could be persuaided to leave I suppose if a Higarian delagation was to alert them to the fact that the empire had fallen. That would be however, quite the expendature of resources to sign on a cult of pirates.

I suppose we will all have to wait and see.

[Retroboy]

Just as an FYI, nebulae are typically so big and have so many resources, you could harvest away and construct several thousand Kushan motherships without making any kind of a dent in the cloud's capabilities of obscurement.

It's their religious beliefs that prevent them from harvesting freely. It'd be like you going into a Japanese formal garden and picking a couple twigs off of the trees - the damage is probably not even visible, and certainly not extensive, but you're really gonna tick off the owners of the garden.

-- Retro

[Enrique]

Did I say what kind of resources? I meant that they will surely leave when they run out of resources, not necesary the nebula itself, but scrap metal and ship wrecks.
After a couple of thousand years more they will surely leave the nebula.

[Excelion Prime]

Despite their potential overabundance of resources. (Do they harvest parts of the Nebula or don't they??), I would have to wonder about their total population.

In the Cathedral, we find 1 Prison ship. When the Bentusi let the cat out of the bag about the exodus, 4 Prison ships are shown descending to Kharak.

Admittedly, the Kushan population on Kharak would not have grown very large due to harsh living conditions, but they were still on a planet.

The Kadeshi arrive in the Nebula with a single Prison ship. They have the advantage of not losing their technologies, and beginning reconstruction right away. But, did those Prison ships look like they were capable of building anything? I don't think so.

Either way, rebuilding slowly, surviving off the Nebula, maybe getting influxes in their population occasionally from others that chose to join them, how many Kadeshi do you think there were?

[Enrique]

Depends of how many people a prison ship can house, maybe a few hundred thousands of Kadeshi dwell inside the nebula.