PDA

View Full Version : A guide to Chaos Playing



logo
12th Nov 04, 12:31 PM
A Guide to Using Chaos:
Updated: 3/14: New section on Rhino and updated predator section.

Build Orders:

For build orders to get you going I recommend using one of the two variations on a general build order. Both of these have slight advantages and disadvantages over the other one but overall both are great starts for any way you want to take the game.

I strongly recommend against build orders with other than 2 cultists, Fewer chokes your early game capping rate causing you to fall behind your oppenent in resources. More than 2 cultists on the other hand will leave you either sacrificing a cultists squad or with only 1 CSM squad pre-upgrade. This wouldn't be an issue except that having only 1 squad of CSM limits your strategies in battle.

For Bigger Maps/More Economic Build:
Queue 2 Cultists
Queue 1 Heretic
Force Labor a Barracks
Cap closest points with cultists
When barracks is done either queue up a CSM and Chaos Lord or a Chaos Lord and CSM play with both and see which fits your playstyle better.
If the initial points are far apart send 1 heretic to each point (the full hp one to the point you started capturing first) otherwise send both to the first point you started capping.
Build listening posts, use force labor on the first one with your full health heretic.
Start to apply pressure and continue capping points and putting LPs on them. Don't be overzealous but at the same time don't be afraid to push an advantage.

For Smaller Maps:
Queue up Heretic, Cultist, Cultist
Force labor barracks with both heretics
Capture closest points with cultists
Queue up Chaos Lord, and CSM or CSM and Chaos lord
After getting the CL (if he's first or second) start adventuring into enemy territory. It's still early so he isn't likely to have a hero if you made yours first and if you can disrupt his units and cause some damage now it's worth it. If you go CSM first still adventure into his area of the map but use some caution. Either way bring a cultist along once he finishes capping either their first or second point and use them to decap their points.

General RTS Tips:

Here are some tips that really apply to almost every RTS in general and DoW is no different.
Tech what you have: Never EVER get a tech for a unit you don't have. Don't research Demonic Speed before you make your first PSM squad, it's just a waste of time and resources. Having the unit it affects will boost your battlefield strength immediately and they can fight while the technology is researching.
Know when you are going to want a power gen ahead of time. Making a Sacrificial pit and then having no power to create a squad is a waste of resources and having a power gen but nothing to spend the power on is also a waste. Planning ahead (as you play) will let you manage your resources better.
Don't have Unspent Resources: Unspent resources are the same as ungathered resources. If you have resources stockpiling for something not in immediate use (1 unit or 1 upgrade) then it's like you never got those resources. If you want a PSM squad of full size don't save up for it as they are training. Spend the resources in other areas and then fill up the PSM squad one at a time. Otherwise you'd be sitting there with a weaker force for a long period of time for no reason.
Use hotkeys: Find a tutorial on how to map your hotkeys if you don't like the defaults but use them no matter one. Being able to quickly use an ability or select a squad/building through a keystroke is very handy to have.
Choose your battles: Don't fight battles you can't win and retreat from ones you are in that you can't win. Sitting it out in a battle you can't win just because your units are already in there isn't going to do any good. Try your best to pull your units back into reinforcements if you think the battle isn't going in your favor. Also if you know your enemy will beat whatever unit you have heading towards them stop that unit. Sending a unit to die is NEVER a good idea, every unit has a worth and you can almost always get more value out of them for at the very least charing into battle first to get gunned down. There is one exception I make for this rule though, occasionally it can be profitable to delete a worker as chaos to free up a population slot for a unit (PSM can apply well to this given their 3 pop cost). However you should always plan to upgrade your cap and replace the heretic. This works out ok for chaos because not only do you get the strength of PSM earlier but you get a fresh heretic who can make up for lost resources and time by using forced labor again (I don't advocate deleting heretics just to get a new one for Forced Labor though).

Important points in being aggresive:

Firstly don't be afraid to take some losses, however stick to the rule above of not fighting losing battles. Don't overestimate (or underestimate) your oppenent, if you think he has more troops elsewhere make him show you those troops rather than holding off on attacking. Also just try and kill as many units of his as you can, that's your biggest priority in being aggresive. Pay special attention to picking off workers you can see but only if convient. Next on the target list is going to be listening posts. You'll want to make sure to take any LPs out to deny him resources and to ensure that he can't upgrade one mid battle. Along with that make sure to target any structure that can post a serious problem. If you see him with a building that could allow him to create a unit that would be highly destructive to your forces (such as a sacrificial circle when you only have CSM squads) then you'd want to either target the building itself or better yet power gens to deny him the power to reinforce their squad. Targetting the right building when an oppenent is trying to create something to trump you is key.

Hero Management:

This is one of the areas I see most newer players (and even some higher ranked ones) falter the most. Hero management often makes or breaks a game in the initial battle.

Attaching:
As a general rule early game you won't want to attach your chaos lord to any units. However there are many exceptions to this as well. It is best if you use hotkeys to attach and detach your hero so you can maximize effectiveness. For example if your chaos lord is in melee combat vs regular units (no commander) and your cultists or CSM are as well then it's in your best interest to attach the Chaos lord to the squad for a damage boost.

Now for situations and what I like to do with my commander:
My commander + CSM vs enemy commander: Try to dance your commander away from his commander for a bit to cause damage to him with your CSM. The second he tries to run away you want to melee him with your chaos lord to slow him down. If he turns around then it's time to engage him in melee while your CSM beat on him (preferably also in melee against them to do more damage). Your CL shouldn't be attached in this situation. You won't see this a lot...
Equal Forces: This really depends on the force you have and your oppenent. As a general rule when initiating this combat it'd be a good idea to have your hero attached to a squad. Once in a battle attaching a hero to a squad will leave the hero still taking fire so best to do it before and and remove him if you need to. In combat you still want your commander attacking his commander in close combat. Additionally your goal is to prevent his units from firing on your commander while keeping as many units that you can firing on his. Try to use weaker (cultist) units to tie up the enemy in melee while keeping your stronger units firing on the hero. If you are short squads in tieing up the commander and his commander is not attached it may be a good idea to detach your commander.
If your commander is alone vs commander and squads: run away, do not dance around his units, do no engage his units, do not let his units hit you in melee, just run away and regroup to take him out.
Experience is the best way to tell when to attach/detach your commander and how to keep him alive. Keeping him alive early in the game is VERY IMPORTANT. At WORST you want to be in the situation where both heroes die one after the other.

A Warning about engaging an enemy Chaos lord or Force commander:
Also remember that for all purposes engaging a chaos lord or force commander in melee is FINAL you do not really have the option of retreating your commander once you engage either of these units in melee. So be prepared to see it to the end once you allow your chaos lord to go into melee with either unit. Running away will only give the oppenent more of an advantage, or in the case of the Force Commander your chaos lord will be stunned and unable to move at all.

Proper Use of your hero:
Learn to properly dance your commander around. Try to minimize the time he spends walking after units as well as keeping him from chasing units off into the distance. Make sure that he's fighting the units that pose the most serious threat to you on the battle field (usually the enemy commander).
Remember to always melee with your commander when you can.

Taking out Enemy Commanders:
First a little note about engaging regular units in melee with an enemy hero. As many of you may already know all commander units have special attack that do great damage to many units as well as knock them around. If you engage a commander with regular units attached the hero is free to use these special attacks. They won't seriously affect your own commander but they do have an adverse effect on your own units.

However if a commander is engaged directly with an enemy commander and other units are meleeing the enemy commander your non-commander units will not be subjected to melee attacks. You may wonder why this is important and it's quite simple. I'm sure many of you who have played before seen the situation of 2 squads shooting onto two commanders engaged in melee. Well your units (especially as chaos) do more damage in melee rather than shooting it out. Not only that but units in melee take less damage. So running up and meleeing the hero rather than focusing ranged fire on him will allow your commander to have a better chance of winning as well as minimizing losses.

This is a very important gameplay tatic that can easily swing an early game in your favor. By meleeing the enemy commander with your Marines rather than shooting on him you stand a much better chance of winning over his commander. However do watch how many units can fit around the commander, if he's surrounded by units then don't try to melee him with a 2nd squad as they wouldn't be able to get there to attack.

Keeping your Commander Alive:

It's always a good idea to keep a damaged commander alive and try to let him recharge. However you should by no means leave a commander standing around to let him recover. When your commander is hurt and almost dead you have a couple of options depending on the situation.

If his Commander is dead:
If you have a good push on your oppenent and are in and around his base sending your hero off to another section away from the action can let him take out structures while your other units keep his units busy. If you don't quite have that advantage yet then I recommend attaching him to your largest squad. This will give that squad a damage boost as well as morale boost plus give your chaos lord the chance to recover.

When his commander comes back:
A replaced commander vs a new commander can be a tricky situation. If the odds aren't even all you need to do is keep your commander out of it and run your units around and away from his to avoid damage. However if the odds are even in the battle then you have to play it a little tougher. Again keep your hero away from his hero to avoid taking large amounts of damage while his commander has the HP advantage. Using your remaining units you want to try to both tie up his units in melee and shoot at his commander. You probably can't tie up all of his units in melee but the ones that pose the most serious threat to your commander will likely do. If his commander stops chasing yours then you are free to run in and engage his units with your commander until he rethinks that. Otherwise just keep trying to avoid damage from his commander while damaging him so you can even the odds.

In all likelyhood you will lose your commander. At the start of situations like this it can pay to have a little power in reserve so you can replace your commander. Of course follow the rule of 'not hoarding resources' but don't decide to get a bionics upgrade when you know your hero is almost certain to die in a moment.

A look at some of the choas units:

Heretics: A great builder. Overall appears slightly slower than the SM counterpart but that is due to the fact that Chaos buildings have more hitpoints (and thusly take longer to build). Forced labor is one of the defining abilities of chaos so make use of it as much as possible. Generally that's once a game right at the start to rush a barracks and/or another building. If you replace any heretics during the game due to dieing remember to use the ability again. One thing to watch out for with forced labor is it has a delay of turning off. Once your unit has taking a few hits of damage in the 'red bar' catagory is the latest you can deactive it. If you try to deactivate it when the heretic has almost 0 hitpoints you are likely to lose him. Practice force laboring your heretics to almost no hp before playing a game. Be careful with your heretics they aren't especially expensive but losing them will slow down your expansion rate and can snowball into an issue. Since they generally will have 1-16 hitpoints when you are done with forced labor don't rush them into a battlefield until you have your oppenent busy enough retreating or dieing to not be able to worry about a heretic. Also beware of players rushing with initial squads to attack your workers. Good movement micro and positioning of your heretics can keep them alive and ahead of the game. It's highly recommended to hotkey forced labor and use that to activate/stop it. This will prevent you from being too slow to stop the forced labor.
Chaos Lord: Already talked about a lot but let me just re-emphisize: this unit more than ANY other unit in the game will make or break your game. Rather than focus on how to use him (see hero management) I'll talk a little more about his abilities. Like all heroes the Chaos Lord has special attacks. These occur every 4 seconds against normal units but can hit commanders that are in the range. The Chaos lord is equipped with one special attack dealing massive damage to a unit (possibly more than one not sure) directly in front of the Chaos Lord. The other special attacks deal damage to units in +/- 90% of the chaos lord. All special attacks knock units away. Additionally the chaos lord has a very important ability on his weapon. Any unit the chaos lord attacks (I've only seen it against commanders but other people say it affects all units) will be slowed down 50% for 4 seconds and take damage over time for 8 seconds (not a ton but an amount greater than the natural regen of most units). Additionally a very important fact is that the Chaos Lord is the strongest hero in 1v1 combat. He just beats out the Force Commander and is much better than other heroes in direct combat. This doesn't mean you can just send him at enemy commanders and expect to always win but in an early confrontation you are just that little extra bit likely to bet left with your hero standing. Also be careful of the chaos lord's cost. At 270 requisition and 90 power he doesn't come cheap.
Chaos Sorcerer: Do NOT underestimate the chaos Sorcerer. He is a very powerful and CHEAP hero. He's not a melee hero but his melee attack is still stronger than his ranged and he can stand up in combat. The chaos has several abilities he brings to combat as well.

Teleport: When unattached to any squad the chaos sorcerer is capable of an 'emergancy' teleport. This teleport has a long recharge timer so he can't jump around often and you aren't allowed to use it when he's attached to a squad but it does allow you to move your chaos sorcerer around. Great if he starts taking a lot of fire or if you need to move him somewhere fast.
Doombol: On a 120 second timer this spell does pretty good damage (approx 100 to most infantry). The trick to it is proper timing. It takes a while to actually cast so you need to lead units (difficult) or use it on stationary units. The great thing about the ability is the massive morale damage it does which makes it useful for targetting heavy weapon squads to reduce their accuracy.
Chains of Torment: If you are going to use a chaos Sorcerer then you should research this skill. It's a must. Now beyond that this ability will stop movement on MULTIPLE squads if you catch them in the area. Will do about another 90 damage to squads caught in its effect. Also only on a 60 timer so it recharges pretty quickly. Great for preventing other units from moving (duh) so it's good on melee units that can't warp or fly or anytime your oppenent is retreating or trying to prevent from being meleed. In an even battle don't wait to use it though and just try to get it going for the extra damage to turn the tide in your favor. If the battle is clearly in your favor you can wait until your oppenent tries to retreat if you wish.
This ability is perfect for combination with any other chaos Sorcerer skill. It will help your doombolt hit for full damage as well as corruption. Additionally the combined damage from chains + any other chaos sorcerer ability will usually be enough to nearly kill a squad or at least break morale.

Corruption: In 1.01 you had to target ground for this spell to take effect. In 1.1 I am not sure if this is the case. Either way this spell is roughly the same damage as doombolt except that it has a slightly larger range and duration but will hurt any unit in it's area (yours included). The damage is over time so units really need to stay in the effect to take full damage. Best if your oppenent can't move away from the corruption effect (chains of torment). Not an ability you'll get to use often but not useless either.

Tier 1 Units:
Cultists: Great for meatshields. Without heavy weapons should always be in melee and reinforcing. Units take a long time to actually 'kill' (kill animation) cultists in melee so keeping them in melee will cause them to last a long time. Usually bring them in after you start the engagement so they aren't targetted by ranged fire. These units are highly important to early game survival vs other players. Good use of Cultists will make or break an otherwise even battle so get in the hang of getting these into good melee situations where they won't be taking ranged fire.

Cultists + Grenade Launchers: Great for taking out infantry such as Orks, Banshees, Dark Reapers, and Scouts. Also effective against heavier infantry types like Space Marines and CSM. Try your best to keep them out of harms way as now that they aren't in melee they will drop like flies to enemy fire. After getting armory if you have the extra res it's almost always worth it to put GLs on your cultists. Just remember to put their stance to ranged. These also can fire on buildings without taking return damage if they are provided with a spotting unit.

Chaos Space Marines (CSM): General purpose unit, Stronger than Space Marines in Melee so use that when you can against SM. You just want these out almost all the time. Keep them away from melee heavy units like banshees and Orks. Also watch out for dark reapers (melee them and use grenade launchers). Also make sure to melee any unit with flame throwers or sniper rifles (though not nessecarily with these units) Chaos and CSM in particular cannot stand up to morale damage so you have to keep your oppenent from using it.

CSM + Heavy Bolters: Heavy Bolters great vs Orks or buildings, otherwise it's usually not in Chaos' best interest to get them. Rather than equip a lot of Heavy bolters try grabbing some grenade launchers, more units, or a tech/new unit. HBs are good against buildings that shoot. They can outrange the building preventing you from taking needless damage. If you are having trouble positioning your units right to attack the building without taking damage try moving your chaos lord in a bit given his bigger line of sight. Once you can see the building a little bit it will be easier to target the building while keeping your units out of range.

CSM + Flamers: A better choice in my opinion than bolters in most generic situations. Still don't go overboard with them. However 2 flamers are a great way to cause some extra morale damage to get an edge and no setup time leaves you with better movement options. Overall heavy weapons aren't really chaos' thing in tier 1 but they are moderately useful. Don't grab an armory just to get flamers but if you have the armory it may be worth your while to grab a flamer or 2.

Possessed Space Marines (PSM): A great unit but don't over rely on them. They have Terrible morale when alone. Always attach your hero to a squad of these when you can as it makes their morale almost never break and provides a great way to protect your hero and boost these guy's damage. Expensive to reinforce so make good use of them. Also be wary that going for a sacrificial circle in tier 1 can really slow down the rate at which you tech up. An armory opens more possibilities at the expense of some raw power so the choice is tough at times.

Horrors: Great for taking out heavy infantry, and really any infantry. Simple to use really, deepstrike them into battle, keep them from getting attacked, and make sure they are always using ranged fire. Focus them on key units to take them out quickly. Be careful that they can't take damage well and are incapable of being reinforced. You likely won't have the oppertunity to use these often in 1v1 battles but don't neglect them as useless they are handy to have around when the oppertunity to make them arises. These units are largely phased out in mid-tier 2 due to their weakness to plasma and they can be outdone in usefulness by CSM squads with plasma weapons.

Raptors: A great unit to harrass the enemy as well as be a meatshield. When you need the flexibility and tech advancement of the armory and a unit that can take on melee oriented units then this is what you want. These guys make a great early meatshield against things like banshees and orks. Also they have the option of jumping over units to strike at key units like dark reapers. These can also be used to harrass your enemy's lps (destroy them and decapture the point) and can still get back to a battle quickly if your oppenent attacks.


Tier 2 Units:

Cultists: Cultists lose some of their effectiveness in tier 2 on account of being so prone to fire. They aren't completely useless though. Grenade launchers are still ok in tier 2 and tieing up enemy squads can be very useful especially enemy missle launchers. Don't invest too much in cultists in tier 2 but don't be afraid to make a squad or two to round out an army or cap some lost points.
Cultists + plasma gun: Not at all as good as grenade launchers. There's really nothing else to say these guns are just like the laspistol (default weapon) but slightly stronger. They are very cheap but that's not going to make them any better really. There's not really a need to invest in these at all. Don't be fooled into thinking they are anywhere as strong as the Chaos Space Marine counterparts.
Chaos Space Marines: Still the same as tier 1 but in tier 2 the CSM are going to require some extra attention to avoid plasma weapons, artillery, or large amounts of fire that can quickly break their morale. The weapons of tier 1 still fullfill the same roles.
With more choices in weapons in tier 2 it is important to notice that it is best if you do not mix weapon types for a squad. A squad with 2 plasma guns and 2 missile launchers will not be as good at countering anything. By keeping heavy weapon types the same within a squad you make the squad fullfill a specific role. This means in a heated battle it you can have every missile launcher you buy hitting vehicles and every plasma gun hitting heavy infantry. With a mixed squad you have to have some weapons not hitting what they are best against. Some exceptions can be made such as if you have 2 weapons on a squad and you desperately need a different weapon. There's no sense losing a battle to adhere to this one rule.
Chaos Space Marines + Plasma guns: Plasma guns tear through heavy infantry such as Space Marine squads. It's really important to get this in an infantry heavy game and use them well to mow down enemy infantry. Not as useful vs vehicles or light infantry like orks but against heavy infantry they will always be a good investment.

Chaos Space Marines + Missile Launchers: These take out vehicles and buildings. Keep them shooting at vehicles and out of melee. These weapons are no brainers once vehicles come into the game. Make sure to always have a few squads of them by that point. If there are no vehicles missile launchers are still good against infantry. It's best to keep them firing at squads using heavy weapons or stronger ranged weapons. This way the units will spend more time knocked down and less time firing. It's important to note (again probably) that being knocked down by weapon fire does not require a unit to set up their weapons again.
One squad of missile launchers is almost never enough. 2 is really needed. One squad of missile launchers is far more likely to be gunned down or meleed quickly and against other units with knock down weapons such as artillery or rockets the squad will rarely get to fire on account of being knocked down so much.
Tier 2 Vehicles:

Rhino: This is an easy section to write... these things are essentially useless in ladder play. Smoke takes too long to research for not enough boost and rarely in a 1v1 you'll need to build a transport, especially when you could build a predator or defiler instead. The only potential use for this vehicle would be a quick deployment of troops or to hide an important unit. Since the former isn't really useful on 1v1 maps given their size it comes down to the second. If you MUST use the rhino then bring them behind the lines and when an important unit gets hurt or broken load them into the rhino so they can't be fired on. Will it win you a battle? no. Will it make the res spent on the rhino worthwhile? probably not. So in short it's something you can safely skip for more punch in your army.
Defiler: A lot of info provided graciously by WC_Sleign Defilers are the more anti-vehicle oriented of the vehicles. A bit weak for their cost and build time they are best used in a must-have vehicle situation. While they have strong melee power it is offset by their lower HP and they are best left for ranged fire unless your oppenent lacks vehicle counters. Otherwise they will quickly be brought down by focused fire. The autocannon overall is the Defiler's strongest weapon dealing decent/good damage to all unit types. The artillery provides what all artillery does with inaccurate long range attacks that deal more knockdown and morale damage to infantry than anything else. However artillery isn't the best use of vehicles and you'll likely need to bring them into any battle with more in mind than that.
Predator: Info provided by WC_Sleign Predators tend to be more flexible than the other chaos vehicles offering very strong anti-infantry support at this stage of the game. While more expensive, predators offer more hp and can soak up more damage than a defiler will be able to. Their focus should mainly be killing the weaker aspect of an enemies army composition, while using heavy weapon CSM as a hard counter to their main force. For example, if an enemy is light on vehicles and heavy on infantry, CSM would be equippd with anti infantry weaponry, while the predators would handle the vehicles. They should also be sent into any engagement first to absorb some initial punishment, sparing your infantry and allowing time to focus targets. The main strength of the predator comes in the versitility and the ability to soak up dmg. These are a staple tier 2 unit for chaos providing them with a quick punch and staying power when supported by the other units and heros. A very important vehicle for tier 2 chaos and should be built rather than defilers unless there is a specific reason to build a defiler.
A look at some of the choas upgrades:

Tier 1 Upgrades:
Heavy Weapon Upgrades: Given that CSM's initial heavy weapons are not in great demand this upgrade can be pushed back. If you find yourself making a lot of heavy weapons in tier one then it's best to grab it then but otherwise save it for the tech to tier 2. In Tier 2 you cannot survive without this tech as you will need the extra missile launchers or plasma on your CSM squads.
Target Finders 1: Does not boost accuracy of weapons but rather the damage the weapons do. This first boost adds +15% to min/max damage. A good upgrade to get if you are doing a lot of ranged attacks. The effects are most noticable on missile launchers over standard ranged attacks so when you need missile launchers you may want to also pick up this upgrade.
Bionics Level 1: This upgrade tends to be pretty effective with chaos who have a lot of units out. Boosts the Hp of all chaos infantry by 20%. This upgrade is very effective on Possessed Marine Squads who already have a lot of hitpoints and the boost makes them excellent at soaking up damage.
Furious Charge: Enables charging for chaos units. Units will have a boost of speed if they are commanded to engage a unit of a certain distance away in melee. Additionally provides a +15% melee damage boost to CSM and cultist squads. A very cheap upgrade and if you are using a lot of CSMs and cultists in melee at all probably worth it to grab it.
Frag Grenades: Currently grenades are largely bugged and do not have piercing values against most infantry. Because of this they do no damage vs almost every type of infantry. The only thing grenades will do for chaos is knockdown and stun enemy infantry and damage scouts, cultists, and guardians like they should. They still have some worth but overall not really since they do no damage =/. Heavy on the power cost so can be tricky to pick up but since it's only 25 req it won't slow down your CSM production. Frag grenades not only do good damage but will knock units down and scatter them. This is effective at preventing enemy units from engaging in melee or providing cover for your units to charge into a melee battle without taking damage. The knock down effect will NOT cause units to have to reset their weapon setup. Grab this tech if you can and make sure to use it as much as possible once you have it. Try to target larger groups of weaker units or units that pose the greatest threat to you at the time being.
Jetpack Boosters: Not a bad upgrade if you have several raptor squads out. Nothing especially great here but when raiding with raptor squads or trying to melee weaker but faster units this ability is helpful. Grab it if you feel like you can make use of it by running raptors around or raiding lps more often. Otherwise just leave it be.

Chaos vs Chaos:
Handling a mirror match can be tricky. You have no natural advantage against your enemy but instead have to outplay him completely to take the win (or a little luck can go a long way sometimes).

Against a Possessed Rush:
A possessed rush isn't that difficult to face as chaos. Just keep calm and focused and you should come out ahead. There are 2 varieties of the rush, one that involved deleting your HQ and barracks to create an early horror squad as well. They are countered a little differently so I'll make some distinctions.

Pick up on this strategy through early aggressive play. It's something you should be doing anyways but you need to know what to watch for. Hints such as a lack of early chaos space marines, an early generator, or not many listening posts will tell you that he's probably making a possessed rush. Obviously if you see the possessed space marines or the sacrifical circle that's what he's done...
Queue up a second chaos space marine squad right away. You'll want more smaller squads in this situation so you can avoid taking damage.
Take out his hero while you can. If he doesn't have any supporting troops yet now is the time to take out his commander. When he has the possessed space marines you'll be hard pressed to pop off his commander safely early game. If you kill him now then it'll make your job easier. If he has his hero plus possessed squad then keep your hero away from melee. Use your two chaos space marine squads to dance the hero around as much as possible. If he splits his forces up then you can engage the enemy chaos lord with yours and usually pull away with the win. Either way without ranged damage the important thing is to keep his units busy running and not dealing damage.
Take out the generator. Just as important popping off his generator now will make the game fairly trivial. Without a generator he can't reinforce his possessed squads. This makes it very easy to whittle them down to nothing.
Keep capturing points. Try to keep securing points with your cultists. They have no use in the battles unless he has cultists or chaos space marines fighting. If he doesn't then make sure to keep capturing his points. Taking an economy advantage will almost assure you the win.
Dance your units. Possessed space marines are terribly slow. Keep the units he's chasing after running away while other units shoot on them. As long as you can do this safely, meaning he has no chaos space marines or chaos lord, then you can keep his possessed marine squad at a small size and eventually kill them off.
If he builds a chaos space marine squad things can be a little more difficult but not much so. Just keep your units running from his possessed squad while at the same time the squad standing still should be firing on his chaos space marines. Again you have the advantage in resources so you should have no problem beating his squad like this given you can reinforce more chaos space marines than he can.
Build your own sacrificial circle and possessed squad. Once you've gotten several listening posts up it's time to make your own generator and sacrifical circle + Possessed squad. I don't recommend it but if the need is urgent feel free to delete one of your heretics to free up population for the possessed. Once you get your possessed squad out (if you even need it, which you really probably don't) then you are free to engage him directly in combat. However he's been reinforcing his Possessed marines to keep them around while your chaos space marines are barely scratched. If he's rushed a horror squad through deleting his headquarters then doing this isn't likely as much of an option but that's ok it's not really needed in that case. It's also possibly to safely do this because you know he cannot be teching up since you've been harassing him early and have really crippled his options for advancement.
(For Deleting Head Quarters only). Make sure to always engage those horrors in melee and just take them out. Without the horrors you'll have crippled his range damage options. However leaving the horrors alive can cause some problems with being able to face his units. Don't worry too much about it either way. Keep building as much as possibly and expanding in any area he builds in. As soon as possibly pick off his cultist squads and builders. This will limit him to his current army. Eventually just by rebuilding and falling back you should have no problem knocking out all of his LPs and eventually his generator. Just overtime you should be able to win through growing your economy. Just do your best to avoid taking damage when possible which is why it is best if you can take out that horror squad early. Remember there is a building destruction victory so make sure to always have a barracks or other unit producing building still standing.
Against a strategy like this your game should never reach tier 2. If it does then you've really mucked things up. The key is just to keep his resources tied up in his expensive early units while they can't do any damage due to being dragged around. He's really locked into his strategy so as long as you can manage it the game shouldn't be a problem.
Summary::
Make the most out of every unit, ever throw them away.
Do not throw away your hero, make sure he kills or almost kills the enemy hero
Gain speed in hotkeys and build order to be able to advance on your oppenent early without feeling weak
Keep playing and notice what works well against what as well was what doesn't work so well. This applies to the game overall as well as your personal tastes in gameplay.

Stilgar
12th Nov 04, 12:57 PM
*jaw drops*
Awesome!

Thank you logo.

SubZero
12th Nov 04, 1:01 PM
Yay! A Chaos guide, i did the Eldar one a few days ago ^_^

fungi
12th Nov 04, 4:52 PM
yay thank you very much since im new to this game this helps me greatly
thx logo

Darkone_1
12th Nov 04, 5:01 PM
good guide

SubZero
12th Nov 04, 5:26 PM
PM a Mod to make it sticky.

ionfish
12th Nov 04, 5:28 PM
Good guide, logo. You win the sticky. :)

RhyuFyre
13th Nov 04, 6:29 PM
Logo, have my babies?

Mathies Fodea
14th Nov 04, 1:37 AM
No offence, it is a very good guide but i am starting to wonder if people are realy that bad. Why does everyone have to get tatics from forums? can no one win by themselves? :argh:

TigerWolf
14th Nov 04, 2:57 AM
Youd be amazed at the people online that have no idea about playing this game, these strats would relly help them, pitty they dont read them.

Snidely
14th Nov 04, 4:20 AM
I find that the trouble with attaching CL to PSM is that he slows them down a bit (when they have Daemonic Speed or whatever it's called). You really want them to get into combat ASAP, so I attach the CL after the PSM are in CC.

*Eroes*
14th Nov 04, 11:24 AM
Really a great guide: thx ;)

logo
14th Nov 04, 10:59 PM
Added a section on some tier 1 upgrades and a bit about the heretic. Will start to get into the heroes and tier 2 units soon I think but it's a little harder to write about since a lot of games don't go that far.

Deflorator
15th Nov 04, 5:38 AM
If somebody could put all of this together and make a full strategy guide , it would be great!

Mathies Fodea
15th Nov 04, 6:10 AM
yea, you put in a guide for chaos.... I still think that people should learn how to play by themselves or they will never truely be good. :fight:

Shifteh
15th Nov 04, 9:50 AM
Thank you very much for this guide - it really helps out new players. The build orders are especially good.

Angry_Monkey
15th Nov 04, 10:35 AM
I think this was meant to bo a exactly what it is... a guide! The Basics if you will? You can add your own tweak. You still have to be a good player overall... you can read all you want, but until you get out there and play you never know how good you are. How will you react when the enemy throws you a curve ball?

Things don't always work the way they are spelled out above. But some of the concepts like "what to do witht he CL" could be very helpful.

All games are like this, once people figure out what is best then it's a matter of tweaking and/or figuring out how to beat them.

reinefrost
15th Nov 04, 10:38 AM
Nice.

Angry_Monkey
15th Nov 04, 10:43 AM
btw thanks logo for putting in the time on this... I appreciate it... I tested out some of the concepts you posted here and they work much better then some of the stuff I was doing.

Thanks again,

Monkey

logo
15th Nov 04, 12:13 PM
Well as you may notice the build order is very short... I don't say when to build a generator or anything of that sort.

There are only so many ways to 'get out of the gate' if you will that will lead you towards a good economy and fast start with military power. These are the most common ways. I wanted to recommend these over some other build strategies I see like Cult-her-cult or her-cult-cult-cult because I find that these other build orders tend to lead you down paths that won't get you very far in the ladder. I don't think anyone will be able to win just by copying the build orders I mentioned, I've seen plenty of players do it before (because they are what most top players use) then fail miserably once the first clash comes because they can't micro their hero or army well.

I definetly encourage people to try their own thing but I do think many players need to focus less on their build order and more on good gameplaying which is why I wrote the guide like I did.

Antony Belldeus
16th Nov 04, 6:27 AM
Terrific introduction to the wonderful world of playing the forces of Chaos :) I especially like the suggestion of unattaching your hero from his squad to have him perform the "Dance of Death", as I like to call it. Points for that! I did it just last game and wondered if I was crazy for unattaching him.

woolybottom
16th Nov 04, 6:43 AM
Thanx a bunch. Yes Mathies Fodea... we all have to start playing somewhere. I only just bought the game this week and yesterday I thought I was ready to go online. How wrong I was. Theres SO much more to learn and reading what others feel is good and bad is a great way to do it.
Just one little addition perhaps... a key to the abbreviations you're using might be real useful to us noobs. :D

psychoblaster
16th Nov 04, 7:54 AM
Thanx Logo !

Are you planning a follow up with tier 2 and 3 units and tech ?

I'm an ex Eldar and I'm starting from scratch with the CSM

I like to play with them and I don't miss the low HP Eldars a single minute !

I hope you have the time to continue this great thread ...

Let the Chaos anhilate the weaks and the strongs and everybody in between !

Segovia
16th Nov 04, 5:59 PM
Nice job Logo. It's plain to see that you put a lot of time and effort into it. Thank you.

FeB
17th Nov 04, 11:46 AM
what is wrong with this world!why cant new players find their own tactics and learn how to play on their own! please! i did and i have found my own tactic that suits me

Why are you stressing out about such trivial things? You found your strategy on your own, good for you. Other people want some helpful advice from others, why not provide them? Nobody is telling you: "YOU MUST READ THIS OR YOU'LL LOSE".

Darkone_1
17th Nov 04, 12:39 PM
yah let the noobs take this tactic, if you have your own good tactic use it and kick some ass! Just becuase he posted this build tactic doesn't mean that the noob will be good...i do agree that they should get there own tactics but who cares lets somke them anyway :nana: :fight: :smash:

psychoblaster
17th Nov 04, 1:40 PM
Mathies who are you ? GOD ?

What about the freedom of exchanging on a forum and getting ideas and different information from fellow Chaos players ...

If it's not the goal of a forum ... please give me some explanations

How come you still posting on this thread ?, you already made your point earlier and now you're coming at me

By the way, you are the only one B**CHING around here

Everyone else is pretty happy with Logo great info on units and strategies

Next time please ask yourself: "what can I bring to my fellow players" before posting

I'm sure you're a wonderful player with wonderful strategies but I don't need you on my back

Some players achieved greatness and become ...

Some players achieved greatness, stay cool and share their knowledge with others ...

So here we go, I decided to be as contructive as you


:fight:

bigboshbad
17th Nov 04, 8:10 PM
Good guide, written for 1v1 play im guessing by the focus on commanders and teir 1 units.?
I find it impossible to get a 1v1 game between good player to ever reach teir 2
wish they would make some changes.

-|EoT|-Havoc
18th Nov 04, 8:18 AM
Mathies Fodea fellow... are you just scared that "noobs" will beat you after theyve read this topic or something? If u think you are so good, you should be glad to have more challenging opponents, instead of whining about it. Sheesh..

GodOfRock
23rd Nov 04, 3:23 PM
I've been experimenting with building a possessed squad ASAP and skipping the CL. They can go toe to toe with a an Force Commander. I build cultist, heretic, cultist, CMS after barracks, then build power, sac circle, lps, and more power. You may have to suicide charge a cultists squad to avoid unit cap. Later on 1 CMS with dual flamers (need armory), 2 poss squads, 2 cultists squads with grenades. Hit the enemy hard before he gets lots of plasma and arty.

On a side note: just ignore the teenage trollers.

logo
24th Nov 04, 12:44 AM
1 PSM squad will get gunned down very quickly by 1 CSM squad given speed difference and without a CL your PSM will be toast to CL + CSM.

You'll have a similiar results against most races.

The PSM squad just won't work as you climb the ladder and met people with better micromanagement skills

ani
24th Nov 04, 1:57 AM
Mathies Fodea - if you can't add anything constructive to this thread, don't post in it at all.

thread tidied.

Bioh@zard
24th Nov 04, 2:11 AM
Well, that's the one good use I have found for a rhino, right there :P

Possessed in a rhino ROCK. Just wheel 'em up to a building/squad, pop them out and you have just avoided the mopping-up of the possessed squad.

True, a rhino may be a little expensive for a one-ride-dead addition to the possessed, but face it, rather a rhino dead than a broken possessed unit that gets into CC.

And this is particularly powerful against bases. Just ride the rhino in there, deploy the upgraded possessed next to the armoury/barracks/power plants and boum, you have an opponent in resource/reinforcement trouble.

logo
24th Nov 04, 3:12 AM
New Update (11/24)

I added some thoughts on a few Tier 2 units as well as the heroes.

Additionally I modified a few thoughts on some other things (nothing major).

I'm hesitant to write more on the vehicles because I don't get to use them often. As many of you know 1v1 games are usually won or lost in tier 1 so experience with vehicles is limited for me as I play mostly 1v1 games.

[CWC]Slayer
25th Nov 04, 1:04 PM
Can we have some information on vehicles. I dunno how to use defilers effectively, so i dont use them. My mate tells me this isnt good...HELP!!!

Fhloston
25th Nov 04, 9:57 PM
great guide, thx.

F.

Aron_DeTomado
28th Nov 04, 11:11 AM
I have a simple tactick i use alot with chaos: CL attached to PSM + CS attached to PSM + Demonicfire research, this is really gonna deal some big CC punch, then 1 Cultistsquad for meatshield use, and finally a squad of CSM with a HB/PG and 3 ML, these guys will offer some fire support. This may sound like alot but it really isnt that much, though it can be a really intimidating site for your opponent to see one of these forces come charging him headon. Just remember to focus move to attacking the next enemy squad once the first one has been broken ( and beleave me, squads break like expensive china against Deamonfire)

[Vertigo]
10th Dec 04, 9:05 PM
I would like to see some of the other build orders that Chaos has in the guide.

Aron_DeTomado
11th Dec 04, 10:17 AM
I use this alot on big team maps, especially Lost hope

i usually go for the normal: cultist, heretic, cultist order.
i build a chaostemple with my first heretic and a gen. with my second, they both finish at about the same time so they can both move on to building the sac.circle, all th while my cultists are out caping points.
when my sac.circle is done i force labor a LP on the first SP.
I then build a second gen. and start building two units of PSM, one unit of CSM and a CL, when i have tier one i get deamonfire uppg. and CS, i attach my commanders to a PSM squad each, and then equip my CSM with 3 ML and one HB/Plasma gun.
Now im ready to get stuck in....

Aron_DeTomado
11th Dec 04, 10:26 AM
o, and about that defilerthing: use the to bombard fortified SPs or narrow alleys, if ur enemy has troops there, it will force him to either attack or retreat. if he retreats, the point is urs for the taking.if he attacks, get ur defilers into CC,preferrebly with his eliteinfantry(but watch out for powerweapons), this is so that ur defilers wont bombard ur own troops, or stand around doing nothing(thats the thing about defilers, u can use them for anything cept for washing dishes).

logo
12th Dec 04, 4:59 PM
Well Finally added a section on tier 2 vehicles with info provided by WC_Sleign.


You likely won't see any other build orders in the guide for a while as I don't really believe in any other build orders that provide a strong way for chaos to get started and still have the flexibility to adapt to different gameplay situations.

As you may have noticed I look very strongly down on ANY sort of PSM rush build as they just don't work against oppenents with good micro skills. The same can be said for a variety of other builds.

Really the only other build variation I really 'endorse' other than the two in the guides would be a quicker plasma generator for extreme circumstances or a Raptor rush on a supporting map (DMC). But it's not signifigant enough to talk about in the guide when there is so much else to point out first.

Aron_DeTomado
13th Dec 04, 7:21 AM
if u were refering to my PSM tactic, it takes far too much time and resources to be called a rush.

Here is a thing i just thought up with defilers, place 2 Defs in range of a SP or somthing, place a few minefields just infront of them, then place 2 more Defs a bit behind the first 2, then start attacking "whatever", when ur enemy counters, move ur first Defs back, the enemy will either have to stop and destroy the mines or move through them and get blown up, if he(or she) stops and shoots at ur mines, bombard his army with ur second pair of Defs.
If u also happen to have any infiltrated units, waiting on either side, u can move in on his flank, and deepstrike at his rear, and there u go: a chaos ambush.

logo
13th Dec 04, 10:58 AM
Well I was refering to any build that tries to make PSM the staple unit of your army int tier 1 rather than CSM.

Aron_DeTomado
13th Dec 04, 11:54 AM
Well...erm...*thinking up an excuse to call the PSM tactic useful*...Deamonfire and CS need tier 2...

And its still a good "army" to stalk the streets in Lost Hope, it can be really effective if backed up by allies and can also be good for covering a temporary breach in an allies defence...

Thomicus
17th Dec 04, 10:57 AM
Thanks. Guides like this are very helpful to people new to DoW and people who are entirely new to stratagey games (Thats me) :beer:

Aron_DeTomado
19th Dec 04, 6:39 AM
(seeing that thats ur only post)
Did u really join this forum only to say that?

[CWC]Slayer
19th Dec 04, 7:47 AM
If he did, then ull never get an answer, because he probably wont come here again. hehe

Kryopsis
23rd Dec 04, 11:53 PM
(seeing that thats ur only post)
Did u really join this forum only to say that?
And would that bother you in any way?

A very interesting guide. Exact yet leaving room for imagination. Thank you, logo.
As for the PSM rush, it's fairly effective with a CL: there's nothing in Tier 1 which can stop a such squad. It can easily rip trough base defenses and wreak Chaos(tm) inside the base perimeters. Of course, it takes time to get another squad up and you might easily be in trouble if the opponent decides to rush you early. A CL is one and he can't be everywhere.

logo
28th Dec 04, 11:56 AM
"As for the PSM rush, it's fairly effective with a CL: there's nothing in Tier 1 which can stop a such squad. It can easily rip trough base defenses and wreak Chaos(tm) inside the base perimeters. Of course, it takes time to get another squad up and you might easily be in trouble if the opponent decides to rush you early. A CL is one and he can't be everywhere."

I tend to disagree. Sure you can make a Chaos Lord but all you will have is a Chaos Lord and PSM squad (plus cultists but they don't count). A normal build CSM player will have 2 CSM squads + CL by this point. They will be rushing because playing a defensive CSM build with chaos is just dumb. Your PSM will be unable to melee his CSM due to speed differences (PSM are slower). Your CL will either be tied up chasing his CSM or his CL. Either way with his 3 squads he'll be able to attack either your base or your units. Either way you are doing very minimal damage to him while he has a whole free squad doing damage. On top of that he will have a req advantage that he can easily turn into more reinforcements, more squads, or tech to PSM which will quickly overpower your PSM with his better economy.

Overall a raptor BO is likely to trump a PSM rush in all aspects. The Raptors are cheaper, faster, can jump, and open up the option of GLs for cultists, heavy weapons for CSM, and the possiblity of reaching tier 2. I don't have a lot of experience with the rush and it's not a perfect strat but I definetly would suggest using that before using the PSM rush.

Kryopsis
28th Dec 04, 1:23 PM
I admit I never tried a Raptor rush. In fact, I barely use them: I know they are an effective unit however I don't see how to incorporate them in my BO (CL-CSM-CSM-(Generator-Armory-Sacrificial Pit)-PSM).

exmachina
29th Dec 04, 4:06 PM
you've nver used raptors? How on earth do you beat SM?

Most of my 1v1 play has been against SM: I play LAN because the time zone diff (i live in NZ) makes internet play limited and i have a crap connection.

relying on CSM falls apart when facing ASM's so i usually build like this against SM:

Barracks
Cultist
Cultist
Heretic
CL
Generator
Armory
Raptors
CSM
Raptors

with LP's sprinkled liberally in that build.

Kryopsis
29th Dec 04, 4:16 PM
Tried raptor rushes a few times. Wasn't impressed with the raptors themselves.

As for SM, I use
Heretic force labour on Barracks
2nd Heretic force labour on barracks
Cultist and cap point
Cultist and cap point
CSM (used to build CL but not anymore) reinforce a little and cap point
CL
CSM + CL go on reacon.
Build another CSM and build many LPs + one generator.
Armory
Buy bolters if facing Eldar or Orks.
-Revising strategy beyond this point-

My old strategy, which worked against computer on Hard, Hardest and Insane on small maps has become obsolete (lost 3/4 games today):
Barracks (force labour)
Herretic (fl barraks)
Cultist
Cultist
CL to go harass enemy and see who I am fighting
CSM
CSM
Sacrificial Circle
PSM

Grifthin
28th Jan 05, 8:10 AM
You know raptors are good against certain things, eg. guardians reapers enc.
I usually play eldar but am trying to switch over to chaos.
I can play OK with all the races but choose one, i feel you are a much better if you
understand all the races and styles because that way you know how your opponent wants to maximize his advantage and can deny him the power to win the game.

DukeRustfield
28th Jan 05, 9:28 AM
Sure you can make a Chaos Lord but all you will have is a Chaos Lord and PSM squad (plus cultists but they don't count).
That made me laugh. Only race with a 2 pop cap unit that doesn't count in terms of...anything important.


playing a defensive CSM build with chaos is just dumb
On this I disagree. At least half the races in early game will bitchslap Chaos if they rush, arguably all 3. IMHO, Chaos shines only in Tier 2. You get upgraded PSM, a Predator(!), a Defiler, Hero upgrades (Sorcerer love), Rockets/Plasma, Aspiring Champs.

MeatPacker
7th Feb 05, 10:24 PM
First off, I would like to salute all chaos players for not taking the easy way out — I for one voted for the chaos buff. I'm sure you all much better players for it. I am new to the game and am trying out the different races. It seems the consensus that chaos is strongest at Tier 2, and that is certainly my experience comparing it to Tier 1, though I haven’t played much of Tier 3, but anyway, after much experimentation last night, up until 4 AM, yes, I did have to go to work this morning, thank you for your concern, I put together this build order to get Chaos to Tier 2 quickly but without leaving the base defenseless

Goal: Upgrade quickly to Tier 2.
Plan: Heretic, Barracks, 2 Cultists, CL, Gen, LP1, CSM1, LP2, CSM2, LP3, Armory, Tier 2

(Heretic 1) — Build Barracks, forced labor
(HQ) — Queue Heretic, Cultist, Cultist
(Heretic 2) — Help with Barracks
(Heretic 1) — Turn off Forced Labor
(Cultist 1) — Queue SPs (closest SP, then third closest)
(Barracks) — Queue Chaos Lord
(Heretic 1,2) — Build Generator
(Cultist 2) — Queue SPs (second closest SP, then fourth)
[Little pause here; you can hotkey your units and buildings]
(Heretic 1,2) — Build LP#1
(Barracks) — Queue CSM#1
(Chaos Lord) — Scout and Harass
(Heretic 1,2) — Build LP#2
(CSM 1) — Assist Chaos Lord, or scout elsewhere
(Barracks) — Queue CSM#2
(Heretic 1,2) — Build LP#3
(Heretic 1,2) — Armory (Force Labor with Heretic 2)
(Heretic 2) — Turn off Force Labor
(HQ) — Desecrated Fortress Upgrade
(Armory) — Heavy Weapons Upgrade ASAP

My time to Tier 2 with this was 5:15 on Battle Marshes, not making it a point to go super fast, but not wasting much time either. I’ve only tried it against the computer, not against another person, but there it did cut several minutes off my annihilate times. I think it’s a good start for a new player, at least in skirmish mode, obviously with experience and different situations one would have to modify it some. Still, it seems chaos has little option but to get to Tier 2 quickly, and this would seem to me a fairly standard, middle of the road build. So please, I welcome your comment on any faster ways or weaknesses with this order.

Aron_DeTomado
8th Feb 05, 8:27 AM
It seems the consensus that chaos is strongest at Tier 2, and that is certainly my experience comparing it to Tier 1

Oh, the irony....
I might be wrong but I think that the only time Chaos is at an advantage is at tier 1.
Why? Well, have a look: At tier 1 we can force labour barracks to get a CSM/CL out quick, I dunno about PSM... I certainly wouldn't get them at tier 1... cultist gren. launchers are arguebly an advantage to. period. At tier 2 we lack any kind of light vehicle (Rhinos don't count for obvious reasons), in addition, we need the veh. cap upgrade to get our first vehicle out, we get the cheap and expendeable CS with a fancy shcmany onway ticket to death (ie. teleport). In late tier 2 we get a BIG advantage (big but balanced) however: the tier 2 pred. and arguebly the multi-purpose Defiler. But that's where I have to start the ranting.... We don't get any kind of vehicle to use against other vehicles, we only have the ML CSM for anti-tank purposes and they have very little chance when facing units with knockback. Tier 3 is a joke: we only the wuss Oblits. whose main use is to eat pop cap. and then there is the BT, *sigh* this o-so-powerful "über-unit" has had it's weaknesses discussed before and I cannot be bother to go into its features right now... We do however, get las-cannons for our preds wich is good but hardly an advantage.
-end of rant

Chris
8th Feb 05, 9:22 AM
Oh, the irony....
I might be wrong but I think that the only time Chaos is at an advantage is at tier 1.
Why? Well, have a look: At tier 1 we can force labour barracks to get a CSM/CL out quick, I dunno about PSM... I certainly wouldn't get them at tier 1... cultist gren. launchers are arguebly an advantage to. period.

Forced labour allows us to get a squad out fast(er) but the problem is momentum. Chaos has probably the weakest economy in the game, so in my opinion lacks the momentum to keep the advantage Forced Labour offers.

Lets compare to SM, since they're the most similar. They will have 4(!) scouts running around, either capping 4 of their own points at high speed or capping some of their own and capping/decapping yours. Either way, their economy is likely to be stronger than yours and so they can maintain steadier troop production.

Cultists with grenade launchers are great, yes. But against many tactics, you will get beaten badly before you can even get them. The exception to this is if you raptor rush, but the raptor rush is not always viable vs all races/map combinations.

MeatPacker
8th Feb 05, 10:17 AM
I'm sure it's my inexperience, but I've found cultists about as useful as wet paper bags for any kind of combat, even with grenade launchers. I've read how great they are, so I was expecting more when I actually started using them. If I had a sense grenade launchers made much of a difference I would have moved the armory build up sooner, o/w I think one is better off with a CSM squad.

BeserkWraithlor
13th Feb 05, 7:27 AM
Its good and all but i have 2 problems about it Where the hell is the rhino? you said do not waste any unit than wheres the rhino??? Cultist cc reapers is not a smart idea reapers have 400 health and 30dps and might have banshee backup Anyways your guide is great ;-)

Aron_DeTomado
13th Feb 05, 7:44 AM
Chris, I totally agree with you on this one.
FL might look like an advantage in the beginning but when it gets shot (yes SHOT!) down by sluggas due to it's health condition that "advantage" wasn't so great after all.
As for cultist gren launchers, well, I said arguebly, I my self only get them for the sake of it, but since alot of people have been hyping them I included them anyway.

MeatPacker
13th Feb 05, 10:52 PM
Aron...
I'm starting to agree with your point about tier 1 vs. tier 2. I think maybe it is better to build up on tier 1 a little more than my build order does, although man that would take a long time to get to tier 2. I just posted it because, well, the ork builds were all highly specific--which really helped me to get started quickly with orks-- though the chaos builds posted here seem rather vague (i.e. do this, then that, and be sure to throw in listening posts here and there...). Anyway, I'm not sure I'm happy with my build order anymore. Okay, I'll shut up now.

ReSTiTuTioN
14th Feb 05, 6:13 AM
I could use some help with the situation i normally get stuck in.

Chaos v Sm lets say. They have 2 reinforced scout squads and 1 reinforced marine squad and i have CL, reinforced CSM squad and basic cultist squad.

What generally happens is i send my lord and cultists to attack there hero while my CSM squad shoots it, it normally turns out that i win that fight but then my hero dies very soon afterwards and i get pushed back from outnumberment.

Should i attach my CL to my CSM squad and attack his hero with that, while using cultists on his SM squad?

BeserkWraithlor
15th Feb 05, 4:42 PM
hey i already posted this if you didn't hear me wheres the rhino? you said not to leave behind any chaos units so wheres the rhino? i would be happy if you gave me tactics about rhinos ;-)

logo
17th Feb 05, 1:20 PM
Hello again all. I haven't been playing Dawn of War for quite some time now but I'm back, at least somewhat. I'm going to start playing ladder again and that means as I start climbing up again I'll make changes to the guide as I see fit.

As for the questions I see:

About the Rhino: For 1v1 Ladder play, which this guide is mostly tailored for, the rhino is almost useless. I'm sure there are some tatics and uses for them but at the moment I don't know.

As for that CSMvSM situation I'd have to say your best bet would be to bring in the CL and CSM squad first and engage the SM squad. Then while fire is being focused on your more meaty units bring in your cultist squad to tie up one of his Scout squads and use the CL to float between relevent targets (you'll have to judge for yourself if it is more important to swipe at a scout squad or stay on the SM squad). The key part is to make sure your Chaos lord isn't chasing after units constantly. You want to keep him switching units so your oppenent will have to keep running away different squads. This results in a situation where you are taking less fire and your chaos lord is dishing out more damage if your oppenent isn't quick enough to react.

As for vague build orders... well that's the idea! You have to learn what works for you. No amount of writing can make you a great player or tell you exactly what to do 100% of the time. The build orders are great jumping off points for players by providing some solid starting points and reasoning on why certain things work. Keep practicing and you'll get the hang of what kind of build orders suit you the best.

Aron_DeTomado
19th Feb 05, 6:43 AM
OMG! Ifound a use for Rhinos!
A semi-usefulone anyway....
I found that when a Rhino (and preds allso for that matter) cause knock back when they explode (ie. die), so if you would drive up a Rhino in front of some Heavy Weaponusers you could delete it and cause knock back to them, meaning they don't do as much damage to your guys.

Inst
19th Feb 05, 12:25 PM
rhino is more or less useful for the smoke only, but the problem is, the smoke upgrade locks down your machine pit/machine cult. Chaos vehicles are built at an extremely slow pace.

Alamar
23rd Feb 05, 9:53 AM
Hey Aron, do you get half creds back when you do this...kinda like deleteing buildings?
Im gonna have to say that i agree with the view that chaos are a T-1 force. Seeing someone succesfully chaos rush is why i play with them now. Use the basic build order (i use this on valley of khorne a lot but can be good elswhere) where you que heretic cult cult. FL barricks, Lp your sp as you go along. I generally find it good to CSM, FC, CSM for resource reasons. I can have my 1st CSM squad reinforced by the time FC comes out and while hes building im saveing resources to reinforce my next squad. Also i can cap SP faster this way. By the time my second sm squad is fully reinforced im generally meating the enemy in the middle at the CL's...usually just the middle one witch they have barely started capping unless they use 4 scouts. At this time my builders are free and i find it a great idea to mine field the entrance to my base (only takes one). If the enemy runs it almost always means his force is weaker and instead of waiting to cap the CL's I rush in after him. Danceing is very hard for the enemy on this map,especially once in there base, so this will help you against SM and the Eldar a lot. I send my now fully reinforced cultists in right after the CSM and use them to kill builders and engage the Good enemy units (sm as oposed to snipers). For those of you who doubt cultists value try this.I than send my 3rd squad over. And mop up the enemy.
If he meats me in the middle with a stronger force than i retreat behind my mine field and set up shop hopeing he runs in. A lot of times I will sacrifice some units to engage his leader so he cant see the minefield. Also i will use my meat shileds (sometimes) to slow the advance of his army to upgrade my outer two LP. Most of the time the mine field makes short work of his first squad sent in and the concentrated fire does wonders.
As you can see the main weakness of this is that there is no power plant build or armory so you are dedicated to your rush. This means you might play with this for a while and see how it can be stoped...make replays of your loses and find early detection for the things that stop you and make counters.
Btw this works great for a 2v2 on biffys for 2 chaos vs whomever.

MeatPacker
1st Mar 05, 6:46 PM
"As for vague build orders... well that's the idea!"

Thanks for your guide, logo, I truly did appreciate you posting it, and the fastest way to losing is to be stuck in the same build order over and over.

Inst
5th Mar 05, 12:03 PM
are horrors actually useful?

Aren't oblits better than horrors for most of their roles?

Heroic Chaos: Chaos units against all races.

Cultist Base: Pretty useless. You can use cultists as a physical meatshield to block pathing of particular units, but people are just going to attack them and cut them through. It's quite workable against sluggas, but banshees are so slender and sexy. =)

Cultist Plasma: inferior to Gren launcher in most respects. You can attack on the move though, would be somewhat useful if cultists could actually threaten units in melee combat.

Cultist Grenade Launcher: The only situation where cultists are useful, from my opinion. Cultist gren launchers are great at dealing damage to light infantry. They're cheap, and the damage can prove superior to heavy bolters against non moving infantry.

Cultist Grenade Launcher-

General Strengths and Weaknesses, Characteristics-

Good against light infantry. Sometimes good against a lone comm. Good against almost any infantry unit that's not moving, since a moving target will be able to dodge the grenades. Good at dealing damage. Knockbacks make it competitive with marine plasma guns. Area of effect damage make it very strong against massed units. Can infiltrate.

Only passable against heavy infantry. Pathetic against monster_med and heavy_infantry_high, basically, it's not good against demons or superheavy infantry. Very high priority, that is, cultists deal a lot of damage but are very fragile(wait, isn't this unit supposed to be a meatshield?). Cannot reliably deal damage against moving units. To counter, keep moving, fire while moving whenever possible. Very low individual unit health, completely devastated by area of effect weapons like doombolt, smite, psychic storm, eldritch storm, and all forms of artillery. Considering the vulnerability of a cultist grenner squad, try to keep them infiltrated and in the back lines of your army. Your enemy should never know that you have cultist grenner escorts until they start firing, so it's possible their AOE weapons will go off on your marine meatshields or some other harder target.

Viability against SM-

Superb against sniper scouts. While the long term survivability of a cultist squad is never guaranteed, you'll be able to reliably kill off sniper scouts and win for cost. Good against marine massers. Your opponent will try to kill your cultists first, so you may want to combo cults with flamers to increase their survivability. You may want to combo plasmarines with cultists, and a few horrors to scare your opponent's flansk. Watch out for teleporting terminators, landspeeders, and ASMs. Smite is also an issue. As always, the issue with cult grenners is keeping them alive.

Viability against CSM-

Against cultists, you know the drill. You may want to keep your cultists in reserve until your opponent activates their cultists. That's your cue to gren their grenners to death. You do very little against horrors, PSMs. Try to seperate your cults from your main army, since it's pretty inevitable for a chaos player to use defilers. If he's bombarding your marines, you don't want him to accidentally kill your grenners in 2 or 3 hits. Use the same plasmarine combo as against SM at tier 2, though you may end up having PSM wars that render cults obsolete. Remember to beware of deepstriking horrors, raptors, and DS/tele oblits. Doombolt will remain an issue, use the same infil shield to help keep your cults alive. Beware of corruption?

Viability against Ork-

Against ork, your cultists are gods. Their base sluggas, shootas, and stormboyz, are slaughtered by cults, and nob leaders take a bit of damage. You're still vulnerable to Big Shootas and stormboyz though. Remember to use infil to keep cults alive. Since orks constantly charge into combat, you will have to get heavy bolters to supplement, grenners do nothing against moving targets. Watch out for wartrakks and wartrukks also, and telwarping big meks. Nobz aren't as vulnerable to cultists as sluggas, and you may want to phase out cultists by that point. You may need to beware of stikkbombs thrown by stormboyz, since ork stikkbombs actually deal passable damage.

Viability against Eldar-

It's a bit problematic once warpspiders enter the fray. By the time warp spiders are active, you can't field cultists unless you have plasmarine bodyguards, and you'll end up having to phase out cultists until tier 2. Horrors simply don't deal damage fast enough to bodyguard cultists. Against dark reapers, it may be better for you to send cultists into melee combat than for you to gren. Against banshees, you may be interested in just letting your CSMs meatshield in melee, while the standing banshees get slaughtered by grens. A good player will go after your cultists though, and you will have to consider flamers on your CSMs. You could also try Heavy Bolters. The eldar goes after your bolters, the grenners eat him. The eldar goes after your cultists, the bolters eat him. Fire Prisms will completely slaughter your cultists, be careful of their prism cannon. Though, in a way, it's better to lose cheap cultists than expensive missile marines. Psychic storm and mindwar means your cultists will have to hide in reserve. Eldritch is also pretty scary. Against eldar, you'll have to be extremely defensive with your cultists, even though they'll wreck havoc once they are no longer under threat. Eldar has so many ways to kill cultists, it's absolutely scary(so many of their vehicles have jump, fire prisms with AOE have jump, their sorceror has AOE attacks and two AOE spells, a targeted attack(mindwar) is superb at assured kills on cultists.

.42.
5th Mar 05, 12:12 PM
Horrors are probably more usefull than obliterators.

Inst
5th Mar 05, 12:44 PM
horrors do two things, they deal good damage against all infantry targets, though still inferior compared to plasmarine(50% weaker once fully upgraded), and they can force units into melee. the melee damage isn't very good, but forcing plasmarines causes your opponent to lose more attack ability than losing your horrors.

Oblits can also force units into melee, and their damage complex is almost as bad as a horror. On the other hand, oblits are 4 cap units, and you won't be able to lock down as many units as horrors. They're slower, are worse for cap, but can teleport. In very short range their flamers can slaughter.

.42.
5th Mar 05, 1:06 PM
Obliterators melee damage is pretty good.
From Vertigo's by the numbers post on Obliterators (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=53870):


Next, the Power Fist (compared to a Nob Leader's Choppa):



Accuracy (when still/when moving): 65% / 65%
Base Damage (Min-Max/Absolute Min): 138.46-169.23 / 10.00
Morale Damage: 75.00
Range: 0.00
Reload time: 2.00
Setup time: 2.00
Calculated avg. damage output per second (standing accuracy):
tp_infantry_low 21.29 (-12%)
tp_infantry_med 36.40 (-3%)
tp_infantry_high 31.85 (+17%)
tp_infantry_heavy_med 36.04 (+10%)
tp_infantry_heavy_high 18.20 (-27%)
tp_commander 12.59 (-23%)
tp_monster_med 38.22 (+15%)
tp_monster_high 4.65 (+185%)
tp_vehicle_low 14.96 (+80%)
tp_vehicle_med 11.22 (+88%)
tp_vehicle_high 4.68 (+187%)
tp_building_low 24.57 (-9%)
tp_building_med 9.63 (-11%)
tp_building_high 10.90 (+81%)



I chose to compare it to the Nob Leader Choppa because that seems to be about the closest equivalent. You can see they are fairly close in the armor classes that matter. Given the Nob Leader's damage output, this is pretty good for a unit that is generally considered weak in melee.


They do more damage in melee than in range. And will actually beat a Nob squad in a one-to-one situation because the Nob squads morale will break. So at the moment it's better to use them in melee. Which is ass-backwards since they carry every ranged weapon possible and start on the ranged stance.

Inst
5th Mar 05, 1:07 PM
or rather, try to attack the nob squad from range whenever possible. Your heavy flamers will break the nobz.

Aron_DeTomado
5th Mar 05, 1:56 PM
but banshees are so slender and sexy. =)
Well, imagin' what daemonets would be like! They would rape (literaly) enemy meatshields!

And Alamar, no. I don't think deleting units gives you req back. Not shure though...

Tod
5th Mar 05, 2:10 PM
.42., unfortunaly the damage won't be as high as the numbers might state. Oblits CC is a little bit bugged and often only two or three out of a squad will actually engage the enemy, the others will stand there watching.

.42.
5th Mar 05, 3:03 PM
I've seen that happen when there is only one target. I never said they were good; just that at the moment the best use of them is in melee. They make good meat shields for heroes too: high hp, deepstrike, teleport and immune to morale. They're still mediocre though.

Tod
5th Mar 05, 4:14 PM
I've seen that happen when there is only one target. I never said they were good; just that at the moment the best use of them is in melee. They make good meat shields for heroes too: high hp, deepstrike, teleport and immune to morale. They're still mediocre though.
And heros attached to Oblits are also immune to morale...
BTW, I saw the CC problem also happen while fighting dozens of cultists. Perhaps they also have problems when lacking the space to move.

.42.
5th Mar 05, 4:27 PM
And heros attached to Oblits are also immune to morale...
Yup and also gain the deepstrike and teleport. Thing is that heroes rarely break so no huge gain and their teleport has a huge start up time and cool down time. At least it seems huge some thing like 5 secs.

Aron_DeTomado
6th Mar 05, 2:15 AM
Has anybody noticed that Oblits have powerclaws?

Inst
6th Mar 05, 3:08 PM
revision, cultists have passable melee damage dealing abilities against infantry_high and infantry_med.

Alamar
11th Mar 05, 8:27 AM
Has anybody noticed that Oblits have powerclaws?


Really?

Aron_DeTomado
12th Mar 05, 1:16 PM
Yup, they've got Power claws, scroll onto them and see for yourself.

Whitefires
17th Mar 05, 5:55 PM
Their very different from the powerclaws on other units in stats though.

Demon_Eyes
22nd Mar 05, 2:39 PM
Obliterators teleport is the same as Terminators and Assault Termintors:


GameData["squad_jump_ext"] = Reference("squad_jump_ext")
GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["breakdown_time"] = 5.000
GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["charge_jump_cost_max"] = 50.000
GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["charge_jump_cost_min"] = 50.000
GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["charge_max"] = 100.000
GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["charge_regeneration"] = 1.000
GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["jump_distance_max"] = 60.000
GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["jump_time_max"] = 8.000
GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["jump_time_min"] = 8.000
GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["requirements"]["required_1"] = Reference("required_research")
GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["requirements"]["required_1"]["research_name"] = "chaos_personalteleporters"
GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["setup_time"] = 5.000
GameData["squad_jump_ext"]["teleport"] = true


So 5 second breakdown, 8 second teleport, 5 second setup (although they will fire during setup for some reason). That is a 18 second teleport total from the start to finish, still faster than thier walking when taking in to account the distance they can teleport on top of deep striking which doesn't take the exhorbant amount of time.

Considering their slow movement speed I would much rather use Possessed as meatshields for Commanders, their high HP (670 base PSM HP, 705 base Oblit HP) great morale armor, better melee stats and larger squads seems to fit much better along with their incredible morale breaking ability.

To give you a more pronounced view:
Obliterators + Bionics 1&2 and fully reinforced
705x1.2x1.2x4= 4060 total squad HP (removed fractional hp)
Possessed Space Marines + Bionics 1&2 and fully reinforced
670x1.2x1.2x10= 9648 total squad HP

That is more than double the total HP and a lot hit points in any single squad, the only squads I know of that has more HP than that is Ork Nob Squads and Seer Council, both of whom have inferior armor classes, Assault terminators are probably close to equal when considering they have lower HP but a better armor class.

komninosm
22nd Mar 05, 7:11 PM
The SC has 7500 hitpoints, not more.
Also when comparing PSM to oblits you might want to consider the 3 to 4 pop cap.
BTW do termies also have the Oblit teleport setup bug?

Demon_Eyes
23rd Mar 05, 3:02 PM
Whoops, messed up the math on the SC total HP, either way though they are not as good of meatshields as PSM so it don't matter that much. Good point on the popcap as well, granted oblits are much economical and could be used well in a pinch, if your at teir3 your probably not too worried about the resources it takes to field PSM.

I am not sure on the terminators having the same tele bug as oblits, if someone has seen it that would help as I never build regular termies I would not know. It could be specific with the oblits because of their odd weapon setup, though a quick test with regular termies would solve that mystery.

Aron_DeTomado
23rd Mar 05, 3:14 PM
Their very different from the powerclaws on other units in stats though.
Yea, I think they are Power Fists stat wise, and the Claws are just visual.