Patch 1.2 - The Inside Story...

[Cowboy]

Hiya from Relic…

I'm just writing a note to everyone because the reaction we're seeing to patch 1.2 isn't exactly what we had hoped it would be, and it means a lot to us that you guys are happy. Thanks to all those who have been defending and supporting us, particularly the admin guys, and to everyone else, hopefully this will shed some light on your questions and concerns...

We actually did have bigger plans for patch 1.2, including some big changes to NAT traversal and direct connect, which I think would have pleased a lot of you. Unfortunately, these things are really tricky to diagnose, and when we got our fixes into QA we discovered some new bugs that weren't obvious in our dev testing. So we had to make a choice between delaying the patch, and cutting those things out. Since we had a number of other fixes, plus the new maps, we decided to release the smaller patch to give you something new to enjoy over Christmas. Was it the best choice? I still think so. It's hard to judge whether we might be able to fix those other bugs in a month, or whether it will be longer. Since we are always torn between taking time away from our other efforts, it felt like it would be better to send it out, and make the most of the things that were already ready.

The reality is, making a patch isn't like pressing a button. Every time we change one thing we risk breaking something that already works. There is also time involved with putting the patch together once we've decided what to fix, and after we've actually made the fixes. When we make balance changes, the game has to be retested extensively to make sure we haven't broken any of the balance that existed before, which is a huge task with 4 races! We also have to go through a full QA cycle to make sure everything still works properly on all versions of the game (keep in mind DoW is an international game and changes have to work on all language versions). So, even 'small' changes require a big investment in time and resources.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is, we are listening to you, we scan the forums and read your posts and we add all the good suggestions to our bug database so that we can try and address them. Whenever we manage to beg, borrow or steal some people or time to do this stuff, Unfortunately, we have to pick and choose, and hope we get it right! We're definitely trying to think of a better post-launch support strategy for the future, but these things take time, so bear with us!

For all those that are already "with us" - thank you!!
:beer:

Happy holidays everyone....Jonathan

[Noir]

Thanks for taking the time to explain,it's much appreciated :)

Edit:Actually...will these features that are supposed to be in 1.2 come back at a later date,when they are fixed?

[meppa]

Thank you for giving us some inside info on this and happy holidays to you too.

[First And Only]

Much appreciated. Communication like this is all we really needed.

[Illuminatus]

If other developers *cough Blizzard* took the time to actually listen to the feedback the way you did and comment on why things happened the way they did, I feel that gaming communities in general would be a better place.

It can't even be described how helpful it is to get a reply like that instead of just ignoring us and releasing 1.3 later to make us feel better.

Happy Holidays, and thanks for giving us a glimpse of what's going on.

[Expo_Appopi]

Thanks for the explanation.

[Sgt Tyr]

Indeed.

I can understand how difficult working on such a large and ambitious project with little resources, time, and people can be. I think that people are failing to take these things into consideration when making judgements about the product and the support you are giving it.

All in all, I think you guys are doing a great job. Really. I hope you can do enough to make this game a regular in the RTS world for years to come. I LOVE Warhammer 40,000, but since I myself have no ability or talent to make something like DoW, I will continue to appreciate and support all the hard work you all at Relic have put into making this game. :up:

Thanks, and Happy Holidays Relic. :)
-Sgt Tyr

[Alpha_1]

Thanks for the post, I'm glad to hear you will be getting Christmas off after all, hehehe.

Thanks for the patch and keep up the good work.

[Demonhorde]

yeah thanks, but i for one was abit suprized aswell. Looks like your already is moving on with making other titles, and only trying t osteal some of your coders time from time t otime to work on patching. I for one got terrified reading that. You should have atleast some staff working on issues regurly, hey its called support damit! You guys have relesed a brilliant game, but i for one am not able t oplay it asmuch as i would want due to crashes!

like i said in the ask a dev tread, is this game getting enuff after relese help? im not talking about blancing that is hard. But please please please look into the amd + nforce2 + ati problems, im a addicted 40k gamer and i would love to be able to play atleas ta couple of games before crashing. As it is now i get a crash almost every game. And it comes at random, the help tread isn't exactly what i had hoped for since t obe able t oplay the game i have to do some drastic bios implements and nerfing my card from 8x to 4x this isn't exactly what i like t odo. So as it is now im in standby mode... im not playing the game until these things are affected. Im hoping t oreturn when i can play! = issues fixed.

That said i love what you have done with this game, please please please... steal some funds and get a proper post-relese *proper* patch team going!

that said i love the game! and i would love t oplay it more, but like i said the bugs keep crashing my rig!

[Bouchehog]

The problem comes when you release a first patch a whole month after release, with some major and simple to fix problems poorly addressed. There are still errors in the luas that have been pointed out on these forums that have not yet been resolved.

You release another patch a month later with almost no advance on the game (that is not to say that you've no been working, but you must see it from the consumer's prospective). It took a month to fix basic errors in how a percentage was calculated (e.g. Seer damage) then you release a nothing patch another month later, when there are still some serious outstanding issues.

Why are you upset about the response to patch 1.20? This could have been the best RTS in history but I don't think that it will ever take off in terms of online play now because it was so flawed from the outset with basic errors that took a (needlessly) long time to fix.

[Bubbel]

Respectful comments, and at the time when it could have really feckered. Respect :)

Althought id recommend another post in 2 weeks saying the progress, but im totally content with this one :)

[imabrickwall]

I am really pleased with your message. It is very receptive and inciteful. There is just one concern of mine that I have had for some time. Take for example, the game Age of Mythlogy. Age of Mythlogy had a good amount of patches within the the first months of its release. Then suddenly, after bugs had been removed, they just stopped, even thogh terrible balance issues still existed. I really just want a game where they keep at it and keep listening. I am glad to hear that you're trying the best you can.

Also, I would like to include a suggestion. Perhaps it would be possible for the Relic community to hold frequent contest in map submissions. Dawn of War players download that tool patch that allows map editing and there could be a very fun contest that would allow the community to contribute to upcomming patches! That would be very exciting. Maps could be judged based on overall playability. Anyways, just a thought. Thank you and Merry Christmas.

[SindriLéBastar']

don't worry too much about our response, most of us aren't even worthy of giving one. you guys did a good job.

happy holidays! :howdy:

[Caladbolg]

Sorry Relic, but ... you need to do better, thats just it.

I realize patching isn't pressing a button, but most of the fixes you could do take maybe an afternoon to accomplish

Sounds to me like someones being lazy.

Ohh and on a side note, I don't care about the maps that are bad in the first place. I want a balanced game first.

[SgtSteve]

Thank you for the information, it IS greatly appreciated. In fact, I am just as happy with this update as I will be with the next patch. This game is fabulous, in terms of gameplay and the rich 40K content; keep up the post-release development and we'll keep telling all our friends and family to buy it!

[Jetmech Jr.]

This is much appreciated. These kinda company/fan interaction are one of the reasons I'm such a fan of Relic.

[StaR_Robo]

Thanks for the feedback .... it's amazing what a few words can do.

If there is one lesson I would hope was learned out of this it's that if you have built up community expectations and you are going to deliver something less than those expectations you need to do a little bit of work to reset the expectations or at least explain what you are delivering. ;)

[bubbapook]

Many many thanks for the message, it means a lot to those of us that still love playing the game online, regardless of the torrent of calamitous errors that so many 'experts' on here claim to have found.

I'm sure you guys are doing as much as you can reasonably be expected to do, keep up the good work :)

[ReMan]

Relic - you do a great job. Thanks for the update. And to the dumb@%#es that think this stuff is just a quick fix - then you do it. What?!? You can't? Then stick to the stuff you know. And for the people that say they can, but it's not their job - it's time to prove it, otherwise your full of bulls$%t.

[thudmeizer]

Cowboy! THANK YOU for COMMUNICATING a response to the community! You would NOT believe how many people are waiting for a DirectConnect/NAT resolution to be ironed out!! I am sincerely hoping to see this long outstanding issue resolved due to the # of colleagues I have who alone have NATs! NATs are now near common on everyone's high speed broadband so its a no-brainer more game companies need to support it out-of-the-box!

Hope you also fix some of the LUA script problems and also consider some of the great comments made in the SUGGESTION forum! Lots of good stuff there, from everyone as well as, well, me. :bandit:

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to the Relic/THQ staff!!

[|AXiN|]

Thanks guys for letting us know what's going on.

While I am happy that some issues have been addressed, this patch feels more to me like a map pack than anything else. I mean, basically all you have here is a fix for a fix, a fix for an ability most people don't even notice, a fix which was suggested back in the Beta, the anti-dropping thing, and two shiny brand spanking new maps. It just seems like they were thrown in to make it worthy of being called a patch, and yet really, it isn't worthy of 1.20-ness. It's more like a 1.11 fix.

Sorry if I seem overly critical, I'm stoked that support hasn't disappeared, but it just could have been... better. Still, hopefully the next patch fill kill my concerns. And fix the obscene bugginess of Gamespy ;)

[Noir]

I figure that it was probably meant to have lots more,but the stuff that cropped up axed it into basically DoW 1.11.I just hope they come back soon :)

Edit:A short update on this around 2 weeks from now,like another poster asked for,would be nice to have though.

[Shakrith]

Thanks, cowboy, this really cleared some things up. I now understand why it was so small, and have come to appreciate it.

[Jazhuis]

Like Unknown just mentioned, I think dropping a short line like this every couple of weeks (or maybe even just once a month) would deflect a lot of the criticism that has been thrown at Relic. Most of it comes from things being so quiet. Not that Relic has to post a pre-changelog every first Tuesday of the month or anything. Of course, they could if they really wanted to. ;)

But then again, even though this thread itself is trying to fix that, people are still throwing accusations of "lazy" and such around. Let them at least try to make us all happy here. :beer:

[Kalevispetke]

What exactly is this NAT issue in the game? Is it that other players can't join games that you host and automatching won't work?

Thats something thats happening to me, I'm behind a really sucky multistorey apartments DSL connection that is completely firewalled off and no way to open ports there.

[SquaLdon]

Comforting words to say the least.

Oh and ReMan, quite a few people HAVE fixed these problems themselves, however, until the fixes become "official" they aren't of much use to anyone.

Though some fixes would require rebalancing (Stormboy damage issues I guess), others would definantly not (Falcon invisible brightlance, Raptor's have no texture on their heads, etc).

[meppa]

NAT issues is in direct connect games. If someone who is using NAT joins your direct connect game, no one can join it anymore.

[alien|Left]

About the Balancing Problems.
How about changing the most obvious balance problems like the top players propose?
It wouldn't take that long.
If you don't test the changes before making em, who cares?
We will test them. We had an unbalanced version when it came out, so IF one of these change would break something different in the game balancewise, only IF that happens, you can patch this again, but you satisfied the community, show that you want to support the game and that you actually hear what we say.

The Balance Problems after such a patch would be certainly not as strong as they are now, since the community made a lot of tests to find out the actual state does not work, and we thought a lot about the changes that would help.

Cheers, Left

PS: Please think about my comment and not just read it and not further think about it.

[LarkinVB]

Thanks for the feedback. Nevertheless the answer was too generic for me. No hint why lua bugs found by the community weren't fixded. I get the feeling that Relic was surprised by the negative feedback for v1.2 and Cowboy had to do some soothing of the waves without revealing anything new. Ok, they are stealing their time to do some fixes. If it takes them more than 3 month to fix obvious lua typos it will take them foreever to balance the game.

Thanks for the great game.
No thanks for the lousy support.

Merry Xmas to Relic and the DoW community.

[evilhippo]

but most of the fixes you could do take maybe an afternoon to accomplish

You *so* don't know what you are talking about. Yes, I look for forward to a better patch too but for the reasons Cowboy stated, it is not a trivial matter to accomplish patching a complex game like DoW

[hybris]

Wow - Thanks!
It is always great and more explanatory to know the reasons and follow the work behind the patching.
I'd just wish you guys let us know more before each patch, what is really going on behind the scenes - what to expect, what you aim for, what you have problems with and so on...

[*Eroes*]

Sigh, another month [or more] to wait in order to have some balance fix..
Wow, great support here.

However, thanx for the info and Happy Holydays.

[ReMan]

Oh and ReMan, quite a few people HAVE fixed these problems themselves, however, until the fixes become "official" they aren't of much use to anyone.

Oh so they have tested these fixes accross multiple platflorms and all functions? Done a through QA including all languages? Insured balancing? Or are they just tweaking things the way they think for their favorite race? Something tells me if they released their "fixes" then the same unknowing jerks in this community would tear them a new one just as bad or worse than they having been doing to Relic. These are just my views.

[$gtPopp3r]

Thx for the info, Relic, it's appreciated.

I think the problem is that many of us, me included just don't understand why the things that could be fixed easily, the lua bugs, just aren't getting fixed. Unfortunately your letter didn't explain that explicitly. It just implied that you're "doing something else".

I can only imagine that you're trying to fix technical bugs that are still around, making it possible for more people to play without crashes etc. I hope that's the case.

(to all those people saying: fix it yourselves, if it's so easy: there's different types of bugs in this game. I agree that the technical stuff like incompatibilities with ati amd or whatever require lots to fix. But please know that there is a great many typos in the code that the mod community has found that can be stupidly easily fixed, simply by editing. fixing that stuff won't cause new compatibility problems or cause your system to crash or prevent you from connecting to gamespy. it's just some ingame values and references....)

[TBS]

thanks for the update relic :), keep up the communication with the community and hopefully we'll see a lot less doomsday threads on these boards.

To those wondering why "simple" lua fixes havent been included yet my theory is that Relic is worried about the effect that making those fixes would have on balance. Whatever some people might say, the balance in this game is pretty good for an RTS with 4 unique sides - there are undeniable balance issues that need tweaking but at most levels of play each side has a roughly equal chance vs every other side with the exception of eldar vs orks where the ork player really has to work hard. So, the game works as it is...its not working entirely as intended due to the lua typos but a balance does exist (eg there are Eldar players posting about how the first patch nerfed their race so much that its almost unplayable and theres a top player (Bubbel) posting about how hard Eldar are to beat). Now, if all the lua typos were fixed then units would start acting differently and that could have an adverse effect on this balance - I believe that Orks are the worst affected by lua typos (stikkbombs, stormboyz and their mob morale bonus thingy), yet orks still win battles and have players in the top 20, so fixing the luas could well overpower the ork race (against SM and chaos at least...warp spiders would still give orks a really hard time early game).

I imagine that Relic are looking closely at what balance changes they will need to make to keep the game balanced whilst fixing the lua entries.

[ThE|MaFiA]

Dear Relic,

I know what you're going thru, even though I'm not a programmer, I know how you feel reading perpetual whining from everybody and some very rare "thank you"; I just wanted to tell you that not everybody of us *is* whining, there's a part of us, the community, that really appreciated what you did with Warhammer, we know you're a young software house, but we also know that with such premises (dow) you can grow bigger with our support. Thank you for converting the Warhammer T.T. into such a great RTS, thank you for the interesting ladder you gave us, thank you for all the small soldiers we, not so much grown up children are playing with daily. Thank you for everything, and please forgive us if sometimes we behave like children complaining with Santa Klause cause we didn't get exactly what we wanted.

Merry Christmas Relic Entertainment.

MaFiA.

[Zurgnoff]

Thanks for the update, I'm plenty happy with the patch though anyway, my seer council works properly now :D

Happy holidays

[*Eroes*]

Let me understand, Mafia: who licks Relic's ass is the good one, and the one who complain about all the unbalance problems is the bad guy?

Wow. Smart people here.

[Aron_DeTomado]

O, shut up *Eroes*!
I agree with Mafia and im 100% with Relic (or actually im 90% with Relic and 10% with the choclate companies :D )

[ishanor]

This post is great, and community feels very happy, and somehow taken care, because of this kind details, specially if its related to their (or at least mine) favorite RTS game.
Now, what i do think is that with the potential that DoW has, it would be very wise (even $ale$ wise), to have an internal effort and drop some resources on a little 'patching & update team', one or two guys, so this could lead the game to:

a.- People heavily recommending the game to its friends because support and long life possibility (modding capability is great, and thanks for that)
b.- Reviewers give higher scores, more rants.
c.- Tournament creators would be more interested in the game, so more people would be interested on it.
d.- etc...

If a company looks for number$ i beleive this could help getting some more for them, specially if well planed and starting on game release date, maybe its no too late now.

Look for example at Total anihilation, that great RTS!, a weekly unit they offered for download!!, and that didn't stopped them from selling great expansion packs for their games, the WH40k universe is very big, think about it!!!

Thanks for a great game , i only wish for it to become the number 1 :beer:

[$gtPopp3r]

TBS: yes, without all those lua bugs gameplay/balance could be completely different (imagine the defiler's autocannon actually doing damage to inf).

I hope you are correct and that is a reason why it's taking so long. But then why don't we hear a simple message saying so?

anyways, happy holidays to you all :)

[Expo_Appopi]

@themafia: That was pretty gross. There is whining/moaning, and then there is the other side of things. Save the caramel.

[*Eroes*]

O, shut up *Eroes*!
I agree with Mafia and im 100% with Relic (or actually im 90% with Relic and 10% with the choclate companies )

Sorry, I do not understand: if I say that I was hoping for a fast fix of the major balance bugs, I get a "shut up"?

Got it.

[Moe]

Guys, please don't start personal fights in here. We have a nifty PM feature that is very easy and comfortable to use.

[Esrhan]

Thanks, Relic for posting The Inside Story. These kinds of posts are exactly what we need to keep our spirits high and battlerage going.

[TenoshiiAngel]

Thank You Relic. It's good to know that despite all the bitching and moaning you do still care about the community. I and many others are looking forward to the next patch and wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

[ChineseWarrior]

w000!!! Relic, you guys are awesome :) its nice to know that the company actually cares about the game and their fans and not liek other companies that just release the game and get their money and lgive us a crappy game :)

superb work guys :D

[Sps]

While communication is appreciated and i certainly agree with the amount of thought that needs to go into balance - as it took me literaly 15 edits before I got rangers as they need to be., your explanation also shows what we have been saying for a while now.

1. You, as a company move to "other efforts" way too soon, with very little support left for an existing product.

2. The effort is simply not true in cases of a simple copy/paste or fixing a "t" to "_t". All your testing needs to entail is copy the persons fix and see if it works yourself. Some of the guys in Adeptus are quite.. adept. Then, once verified send it as a "finished" item to whoever composes the patch for qa guys to play with. Your QA process is suffocating.

In the future Relic will trully realize the obvious talent we all see to its full potential only if your plans include the fact things will not work right from the get go. None of your games will, bugs are an unavoidable evil, the fact I can put together a medium size project bug free is because I can take all the time in the world. You can't. Therefore, whoever draws up a business plan needs to realise that as well and account for it so you do not have to "beg" for people.

Frankly I'd rather pay (can) $54.99 for a bug free game than a $49.99 for a rushed game. Multiply those $5 by at least 60% of people who bought DoW, and then tell us it won't cover the costs of a proper patch. Hell your intenrs could do it considering the lua system you use is extremely flexible edit wise, then you could simply spend time to verify or have one person to supervise.

i'll stop here as ideas just keep coming.

Just as it is bad to be a perfectionist and never get anything done, so it is bad to rush and compromise.

I do trust you will explain this to the suits in your offices. Relic has talent, more so than most of the studios putting out games put together, and my honest opinion is DoW is the best game I have seen since HW, or rather - had the potential to be. To quote a smart dude - saddest sentence in the world "it could have been".

As for caring - hell only an idiot doesn't see it. It shows in every detail in this game. Your suits need a talk to and thats a fact.

Thank you, and keep making good games. Hopefully some of what we have been saying has got through.

[Noir]

Well said SPS,a nice mix of criticism and praise,I wish more people followed your example.

[TBS]

Multiply those $5 by at least 60% of people who bought DoW, and then tell us it won't cover the costs of a proper patch.

unfortunately, the majority of computer games sales are to casual gamers - they arent as interested in good support as serious gamers. Making the game $5 more expensive than all its competition would hurt sales to those gamers and the extra income generated from the increased sales price wouldnt necessarily cover those lost sales, and being further down the bestseller lists wouldnt help either.

[Sps]

Relic games have traditionally been low cost. I bought DoW for $59.99 as a preorder, but without the bonus it was $49.99 to $54.99.

Most games that come out are in the 49.99 to 59.99 range with some going as high as 69.99.

My info is several months old tho, as i moved on to other things but I worked comp retail forever prior to, and my experience bore out my statement.

Plus never ever underestimate the word of mouth, or a wicked review especially when it comes to a good game.

I know of a bunch of people who hesitated with HL2 because doom 3 hype was just that - hype. Then once they heard that the only bug I have found during HL2 SP was a 12x12 pixel untextured pink area - they bought it. Quality - counts. hell I was good at it (sales) and my No#1 sales pitch is always quality.

And TBS - I'm a casual gamer altho I prefer gaming to say movie entertainment - I only played q3a on any sort of competitive/serious level.

[Volomon]

I liked the patch saw nothing wrong with it. The more improvements or tweaks just means to me a greatly supported game.

[jeremyj2e]

@*Eroes*

Alien clan has done PLENTY on (justified) complaining, Mafia just wanted to say something nice for once, it is Christmas for Christ's sake.

[Aralez]

Sps is absolutely right, the best/most important source of tips for a lot of people which game to buy is the "word of mouth", especially if the tip is negative (don't buy that ****).

I think the 1.20 patch was never meant to be released at all and only part of a bigger, more complete one. But i think if relic doesn't re-act accordingly and fixes (at least) the simple typo-errors next time they will loose players (and credibility)and the community will be splitted up in "official-patch"-users and maybe "Community-made-patch" users, with all the disadvantages it will bring.

[Mac_Bug]

For those of you who thinks fixing typo is easy - yes, it is easy, but it's the typical practice that any changes made to a build be thoroughly retested, just because you or I don't think there's anything wrong, doesn't mean it wouldn't affect other things in unpredictable ways. In this case, fixing typos would suddenly make one unit more powerful or in other cases, a unit less powerful, the immediate implication is obviously what it'll do to balance, and trying to rebalance the game is quite a lot of work.

[elucidus]

Sorry, but shouldn't it have been fix the typo's to get the game how they wanted it in the first place, then balance from there :S

[Epyx]

If you want a long lived RTS you need to put better support into patching and customer relations. This game more than any other RTS in recent times has the potential for the long life of Starcraft. You could easily make 4 expansions for this game alone by just incorporating additional races/troops never mind new tech trees etc...

However, to build and foster the loyalty of us who will buy these expansions we want to see some solid work on addressing gameplay issues..not "map packs".

At best this was a 1.11 patch...certainly not deserving of a 1.20 designation.


Yes, I do appreciate the communication but would rather see action than words any day.

Either way hats off for a great game but one that needs some additional work to be a truly excellent game.

Cheers

[Mac_Bug]

Yes, they will fix those typos, but it may be in the end that they decide the game was better when this particular function wasn't working, and remove it altogether or something instead. Either way, balancing requires time.

[*Eroes*]

Mac_Bug, balance requires time expecially if, as Cowboy has told, they are [already?] involved in "other efforts" :rolleyes:

Yes, a lot of time in this case.

Community needs a boost of enthusiasm, soon, and "1.2" patch is not the right answer. I hope to see a real patch in january. Is it possible, Cowboy?

God, they're sit on a gold mine and do not exploit that in every possible way.

[Akranadas]

I like to say Well done, i know it must be hard to release a patch every month or so as many would want, but im not one of them, so people should just stop complaining all the time and just say thanx because i bet relic doesnt have to realese any patches.

[Boomstar]

just stop complaining all the time and just say thanx because i bet relic doesnt have to realese any patches.

Sure and we don't ever have to buy a Relic game again either.

Edit:Erm this is a little negative.So I'll add thanks for responding to us, but please please fix the bugs then worry about balance from there.Don't worry about the game balance as it stands now as there really isn't any.

Again thank you for telling us your reasoning, and intentions however.

[Fable]

The ladder stats would differ about this game "not really having any" balance currently. Also, I think Relic did the right thing giving us something rather than having us wait for a massive patch that could take another month or longer for everything they're working on. They've already had 3 patches out for this game for various fixes and people just complain that it's not good enough. How can people expect them to set up large patches when all they do is kvetch about not having another patch yet? Way to go Relic, and keep up the good work.

[elucidus]

I wasn't meaning to be neagtive, but the game came out in spetember for me and its had three patches, granted not great patches, but it shows commitment to patch, now if we can get a good patch, it would be some much better.

[thudmeizer]

My only concern is what has happened in the gaming industry historically.. Those first few months are critical to get as much done before publishers "move on". In essence, once a certain equilibrium is met then the pubs traditionally focus on their next cashcow yet again leaving previously revising titles forever dead and left for the faithful community to salvage.

We're all just echoing that time is of the essence and, unlike companies like Blizzard which are so vastly unique in this industry who still support their games years and years afterwards, do hope that Relic/THQ are *not* like typical corporations *cough* EA *cough* who run the cycle of consult, develop, release, 2-5 month support window then flip back to consult, develop...

We don't want THQ to lose site of DoW before its too late and then move to the expansion with the same lingering issues like EA's Generals->ZeroHour expansion. It was bad... But oh how humanity and the public forget.. human memory is so short.

[Aron_DeTomado]

Aye, them manlings are so shortlived they cant even remember their own names...
(Yea, I play dwarfs in warhammer)

[Hirmetrium]

ok guys, this is what ive wanted to hear all along.

just one question, your likely to reset the ladder after a balance patch change, why not get US to do the testing. like a beta patch of something. why isnt it done like that as apossed to having you guys test it?

[ceejayoz]

just one question, your likely to reset the ladder after a balance patch change, why not get US to do the testing. like a beta patch of something. why isnt it done like that as apossed to having you guys test it? As I understand it, public beta tests are pretty bad for balance... as you can see on these forums, there'll always be people saying their favorite race is imbalanced. Most developers have internal playtesting teams for the fine balance tuning.

Game betas are more useful for things like multiplayer stress testing, finding obscure bugs, etc.

[CrossOfFire]

Listen, This guy, put his ass out here to be chewed up, he doesn't even have to make a relationship. But he extends himself and his ideas to us. They gave us something to enjoy, don't complain at him, I'm sure he reads the forums.

Some of you by the way, have no respect and no regard for how hard these people work, Damn, I mean DAMN, 3 patches in less than 4 months? I'm ashamed of this forum's members at this point. These guys are turning out at a great rate. I played starcraft, which was one of the " Best RTS " of all times and Best selling games it got that in, what? 6 YEARS! How disrespectful to come tell this guy your personnal opinion's of what needs to improve, he extended a hand of friendship and you shoot him down?

Also, threatening not to buy Relic Products? What... Blows me away, These guys are making an effort believe it or not, and I've had family in technology for over 30 years, nothing is easy about it, coding, graphics, designs. To think, they pre-released stuff to make us have more fun... This is the thanks they get? It's a wonder the guy didn't resign after reading some of these posts.

You all must realize that the man is apparently doing everything he can. This is your little outlet or source of enjoyment, this is this guy's job. I figure leave the complaints to a Thread, not flaming the man for stepping out and actually deciding to put himself on the line trying to explain to us the situation.

But then again, the General Public does suck.

Anyway, Thanks Relic, you're doing a hell of a job, Keep up the good work.

[*Eroes*]

Damn, I mean DAMN, 3 patches in less than 4 months?

Why, do you consider "a patch" this one?
Stop talking nonsense, plz. In three months we have had one patch and a half.

1.01 was a patch? 1.2 was a patch?

My opinion, of course.

[ionfish]

Even going by your numbers, Eroes, a patch every two months isn't exactly bad. Plenty of games have been less well supported. Obviously we'd all like more and better patches, but sometimes one simply has to be happy with what one has...

[*Eroes*]

Ionfish, I agree.

But try to see my point: simply I hope to see DoW become better and better ['cause it's so far from perfection ... ]
This is only possible with a costant support of Relic.

[CrossOfFire]

...And the Swords have been drawn.

Well, Eroes, it seems that Relic has been putting in extreme amounts of effort. Yes, they have released 3 patches, this is part of a patch but it also fixed maybe an error or two, but hell it was pre-released for a happy holiday. Who do you know aims at patch, but releases something just to make the game more enjoyable just because they have a feeling we'll be playing the game more?

They're putting in the hours and the effort, this is a very well supported game and a very well rounded game. Probably the one of the best, if not the best RTS out there. It puts alot of other games to shame, it's got back ground, most RTS games start out with 2 or 3 at most races, not 4. They've been trouble shooting from square one trying to make it more conveniet for us to play.

You trash them, and You insult me is basically what I'm saying, I stand by them because honestly they are doing a great job. From what it seems whatever this guy can scrounge he's throwing at the patches, so maybe you should reconsider before you come in here trying to down play all of this.

Anyway, Relic, Keep up the good work, Jonathan, you're my hero. But in a serious manner, keep up the good work.

[thesilent1]

Thanks Cowboy for the update on what's been happening. It's great to hear from Relic, and now I can sleep a little easier.

@CrossofFire
*claps* bravo my man! You now have my respect. The forums need more poeple like you who give Relic the respect and time they need to make this game great.

As for all the people who have been whining/moaning/bitching at Relic with your problems: Maybe it would be better to just state the problem that you're having, and leave it with that. Don't start to ramble on how this game is going under, and don't add any negative comments. That's how flame wars start.

So Happy Holidays everyone, and keep up the good work Relic.

[meppa]

Perhaps this moaning and bitching has something to do with the fact that relic does not even give us one word when we report bugs, as in typos in game data files. They don't tell us that "thanks for finding this out, but since it requires balance testing this one is slow to fix", not even a single word like "noted" or "thanks". Only thing we can do is wait and hope these things will get to a patch, and when patch comes out, sometimes we find out that relic did quite opposite then fixed that bug. You really expect us to be happy with this? Even relic admits that they need better post release support strategy. Let us moan and be unhappy and lets stop pretending that this is a perfect game. If we all do that relic will never find out that there are problems and can't fix them. If we are not allowed to moan we could as well delete whole technical support forum and tell people that there are no issues what so ever with this game and fake a nice big wide smile.

It really is quite annoying that bunch of fanboys that have no game experience like thesilent1 with whopping 25 games comes in and says there are no problems. Guess what, we have stated problems to relic, we stated them in beta and they are still not fixed. After second real patch that literally fixed nothing in terms of game data we are allowed to be bit annoyed don't you think?

After reading and analysing cowboys post i really see that there is a problem and they don't have enough people working on patches. It is really good thing to see that they know this and try to improve things. But unfortunately even a good explanation doesn't fix problems. They can get you out of one mess and give you more time, but eventually things must be fixed. I have trust in relic at the moment and think that they will fix these issues and seriously hope that dow will be even bigger then it is now. It really is best rts game in long time and when bugs are fixed it will be even more better. Show us with next patch that i am right and make us all really happy.

[thesilent1]

meppa meppa calm down geeze

first, I only have 25 games since I play mostly skirmishes.

second, many of my games were deleted from Gamespy, which I still hate, but I go along with it.

third, I was here for open beta, so I have been playing this for a while.

fourth, I can't find my freaking DOW cd lol.

You see this is what I was talking about: these negative comments that are added into your posting of the games problem. They are not necessary, and they piss lots of people off like me, and I did not say that this game did not have any problems! Of course this game has problems, but I'm not the person who acts like such an asshole when posting his problems. Just keep it nice and simple.


However, I do agree with you that Relic should at least inform us a little more. With knowing what's going on, I'm a wet towel in a dark dank cave.

[Hangfire]

thesilent1 I'm with meppa on this one. Your behaviour is more likely to cause flame wars than not. Calm it down please.

[thudmeizer]

One thing developers for all PC Games out there should do is have a central website where they tell their paying customers to go and provide comments/suggestions (in point form) for their products and then the devs organize all of it into a chart marking off what they consider YEY or NAY in terms of YES they Agree or NO not possible. Perhaps for every comment/suggeston there can be counter-arguments for customers to debate why they think from that list this "feature", "exploit", "bug", etc etc should be addressed. Logistically, it would be a challenge BUT damn that would take PC support to new levels. Of course, it would take time with creative planning to design the site and how mechanically the various elements would work but imagine how much more communication this would provide to allow devs/pubs to see what their customer base thinks? This is lonnng overdue and would give the healthy impression that something was being done rather than the usual destructive "silent treatment".

[CrossOfFire]

Personnaly, I dived into this because I think it's crap people hijacked this thread and bombed it into another opportunity to whine about the game. It's a good game, simple, they're working on the bugs, no need to bash the guy who's working on it. Read my other post for more indepth opinion.

I re-read this thread and I realize that this is related to game issues, but the guy's making an effort and they're doing stuff to improve it, he's announcing improvements that they're making, they let us have some maps to enjoy. It sounds pretty ungrateful to flame the guy he hasn't responded once.

I seriously doubt the Relic people will want to post on here again, This isn't the first time this has happened, it seems they come on here to have to defend the game. You people should show a little bit more respect and gratitude.

Anyway, good work Relic.

[thesilent1]

@thudmeizer


That's actually a cool idea, and it would help out the forums from being overclogged with all of the repeated threads.

@meppa and hangfire

yeah my bad, it's just that I've been sick for the past week and I'm not in the best of Holiday moods lol.

[Noir]

I seriously doubt the Relic people will want to post on here again, This isn't the first time this has happened, it seems they come on here to have to defend the game. You people should show a little bit more respect and gratitude.

I thought there were lots of people showing "respect and gratitude".A game will always have it's critics after all.I for one would like precisely more of this sort of thing by the devs,though perhaps in a non-forum avenue like LJ.

[Demonhorde]

IM SICK OF HEARING THIS!!!, oh we understand, no problem take your time, and so on and so on. Listen some of you might be able to actually play this puppy without suffering terrible crashes, i cant! And to me it seems like relic isn't working on resolving the bigger problems, the latest patches has all been fixes adressing balance.

NOTE: none has been to fix stability as of yet! I bet alot of players out there still play on 4x AGP, microsoft drivers instead of specialised ones and so on and so on. This should be of highest priority if relic wants the community to survive.

I love this game and am a big fan of what relic has done with it, BUT there is NO! i repeat NO excuse they can summon for the lack of work on patching! I realize patching takes money and staff time. But this is something the developers should have a budget for or atleast try to squeese some out of their publisher. I know that i speak for many whn i say im terrible dissapointed so far, in IGN and PC gamer etc i read that they would have scored the game even higher hadn't there been so much ruff edges. That exactly how i feel when looking at this game, its a unprocessed jewel! maybe thats why it hurts me so much when saying this critisism. But i feel it must be said with all this yes men around.

to relic!

please get more men working on the patch, shit that MUST be a first priority SPEED up the patch time so people see that your not just letting your mapmakers and some interns do work on this baby, GO for the hard problems first! resolve some of the hardware driver crashes!

[CrucifiedGothic]

I agree on fixing the stability of the game working on systems. But you can't 'balance' a game that has glitches. BECAUSE if there is a glitch once removed, that balance of the game becomes shifted again.

Example: Seer Council Conceal
When it was bugged it was highly abusable, if you balanced them out ( another glitch occured ) they wer almost never used. Same applies for many situations. If you balance a game out then modify bugs the bugs are taken into consideration during the balance and theres no telling what balance issues then occur once bugs are resolved.

Then again I have my own list of 'anoyances' too ..

Defiler Reaper Autocannon bug.
FC Bug ( was this fixed ? )
Now recently fixed seer council.

etc etc ..

[*Eroes*]

You people should show a little bit more respect and gratitude.

Respect?!? Gratitude?!?

Ehi, probably you are forgetting that we've PAID for this game. Devs are not doing us a favour patching the game, you know?

Wow, no intent of flame but ... I see a lot of fanboys here. :)

However, thx to Relic to have created such a great game. Now we just hope to see a lot of work in order to balance and debug it.

[AoE]

It's unfortunate really but it seems you can't get anything done for any game (in mmorpg's more than any other) without making your voice heard. If there is a major bug/balance issue that everyone is exploiting, people come to the forums and make their voice heard. Once the dev's catch on the problem usually gets fixed. If noone came to the forums, noone made their voices heard and people just went on pretending everything was ok NOTHING would get fixed. If you have been around games for long enough you know this is true. It may not be plesent looking through post after post of negative comments, but then again if we all say "Relic, everything is fine, you don't need to release any patches. Everythings fine the way it is!" nothing will get done. Do you want that?

[TBS]

*Eroes*: you and many others seem to greatly overestimate what you are entitled to when you buy a game. Your rights go no further than that the game will work as advertised. If your computer meets the minimum specifications on the back of the box then you should be able to play a campaign as the Blood Ravens, play skirmishes or multiplayer matches as one of 4 races, customise the paint scheme of each of those 4 races and not experience any serious graphical bugs, crashes, etc. You have absolutely no right to balance patches or minor bug fixes (for features in the game but not strictly advertised...eg the seer councils conceal or weapons doing incorrect damage) - you are entitled to patches, technical support and/or a refund if the game doesnt run on your computer or you have constant crashes making it unplayable. I understand that some people are having this kind of problem and they have a right to complain (although when you consider the huge number of possible hardware and operating system and other software combinations its little wonder that games have difficulties on some computers).

Now, I fully understand that if Relic didnt provide these patches then that would make you and others less likely to buy their next game (I havent and have no intention of buying BfME...) but to claim that paying for the game entitles us to support is simply wrong, and not in the least bit constructive. Relic is doing the best it can to patch the game and keep the player base happy...but with some programmers taken to work on the next project the community needs to accept that the timescale for these patches wont be ideal (Im sure this has happened...they need to make and sell games to earn money so they can eat and stuff).

Just look how long it takes Microsoft to patch its operating systems...and security holes in an operating system can have a much more devastating effect on customers than you losing an online game because of some small imbalance.

[meppa]

Could we leave this leagal thing out of these discussions, since that is just utter crap. I wouldn't even think that dow eula would be considered leagal agreement in any courts as you are made to sign that agreement without even reading it. Leagally you aren't entitled to anything even if game is totally unplayable. Your mistake that you bought it. If game that you bought isn't working your only choise is to "permanently transfer the Program and its documentation to another user". So leagally we are pretty much screwed no matter what. The moment you open cd case "you acnowledge that you have read this software licence agreement and agree to be bound by its terms". Nice isn't it? Oh and in case you do not agree for some reason "do not install or use the program and delete all copies in your possession". This means that you aren't even allowed to return it if you don't accept that eula.

This leaves little alternatives leagally, so all we can do is whine when we are not satisfied and threaten that we will never buy games from company if things are not fixed. As consumers it is our only weapon. Oh and false advertising doesn't nullify that agreement, but will get company in trouble otherwise, perhaps they have to pay fines or even be ordered to buy back all licences, but these things need leagal cases and are not done automatically. Buying computer games today is quite funny if you consider leagal side. Basically they could make a software that kills your hd and you don't have any rights when you have opened that packed, they could as well add text in that agreement that says that you need to pay them $100 every month for rest of your life :) This is ofcourse work of publishers and not developers and i am not trying to flame any developers with this one. Just trying to say that lets leave leagal things our of this little conversations.

Forgot to mention that nothing makes stores to accept returned products and in many cases you can't return computer games. Some stores will accept them but they are not so common.

[DarknessFalls]

the way i see it, we paid for a game, and we knew when we brought it, that it would probarbly have some aftermarket addons patches new maps etc...

however, i have spent alot of time as a gamer, and im sure one insignificant post wont matter, but for what its worth, thanks for letting us know... that you are listening. that you read. cos many games come down once every moon and 'let us know' and are shocked we didnt know... i dunno, what im trying to say is, its good your being active in the community

[CrossOfFire]

Let me repost what I said on the " Dear Relic " Thread.

" Fanboys? You mean we stand behind a company because we appreciate what is there.

What kind of crap is that? Do you know how you over come problems with solutions. Not whining about it, I just don't care for another post or thread about how screwed everyone was by Relic because they didn't get enough support, which apparently isn't the case.

These guys complain about minor infractions in the game, yes they will be corrected, but when they're corrected and you sat here and harassed the hell out of Relic and said that they were a fraud and a company of no moral or ethics, that they cheated you. You bought the Game, You made that choice. If I'm a Fan boy for standing behind guys correcting their errors, sure. I'd like to see any one of you try to create something a 10th near this, sure there are problems but they are making a very aggressive movement towards correcting it.

No, This last 1.2 patch was not a bug fixing patch, it gave the recreational side of the game to us, via maps. But From what Relic has said, they are working on the patch and released some already finished materials for our enjoyment to keep the " Whiners " pacified, while they fix the problem. Then we get guys out here who shoot their mouths off about something they have no comprehension over.

Do you know how long it takes people to make mods? Anyone who's worked on a mod here, even the most basic mod knows that it takes very long and patient time, and the game isn't even balanced in Mods. Right now Relic is fine tuning a wonderful game, it just urks the crap out of me to see little punk kids bashing guys who've invested countless hours of their time into something.

But whatever, that's my opinion. "

Good Hunting.

[Dymo]

Cross, save your breath! The whiners likely share the same mentality as the droppers on the MP play. If they don't get their way, within the first 3 minutes, they simply complain and then DROP. Misery has always loved creating company!

Never mind them. Relic has a great game going here.

A Rep shows after the latest patch, apparently because the whiners were the loudest, but that doesn't mean the non-whiners have lost quite yet.

Continue to Heap our praise and out shout the whiners! We will in the end afford DoW what it needs, true customer support.

Despite the neighsayers, DoW might yet be in the top #5 in RTS gaming history.(give em something to use as fuel :)

That will never happen if we let the whiners win!

With there louder voices, thier Momma's Computers and Daddy's wallets. Stand up and be heard. If not, we all lose.

To those poor Relic folk who have to read the trash by those who have ruck all better to do I say Kudos!

For a solid game out of the box! I missed the foul up on line 36 file 25, when I read the review? The game still seemed to work OK? My bad!

And in closing, a general thanks, both for the supoprt so far and the noted support in the future.

As far as this apparent Fanboy, that being someone who likes the game btw, is concerned, the new 3v3 map is a well done work. I only say that because no sooner than I dropped my first LandMine on it's surface, one of the opponents stated that mines were GEY! I am not quite sure what that means, but the map suits them perfectly. Well done to the creator!

About time. :)

Please keep moving forward. The language issue was never even thought of, sorry, it must add a secondary, even tertiary nightmare, so that adds even more Kudos.

A slight perspective on how bad this game really is!

I just spent the weekend buthcering and getting butchered by all 4 races while playing DoW online.

As far as I am concerned, and I know the whiners could give a flying ruck, but it does not get much better than that.

Those who would ask for the Rainbow and then want the Pot of Gold too, satisfing them is like looking for gold in a coal mine.

Having the Golden Goose in hand is still not quite good enough. History will repeat, despite the best efforts.

Shame really.

[seraph313]

Hey, ya'll gave us this game. Its still us who owe you. Good Job. :bandit:

[[AdF]GSG17]

ur post relic makes me happy :)

[Worf]

@Meppa:
Noone said you should stop to report errors in .lua files or general bugs whatsoever. But it is really asked too much just to appreciate an effort like 2 new maps? I notice that the people at relic are still working on the game.

And to all those who want these typos fixed: It MAY have severe balancing issues that followed. And the community doesn't want to test that out either. So if they simply did that I can already hear the very same people whining about an imbalanced game.
The thing is: the game was QAed with the .lua typos and, to a point, is balanced (not well balanced, I agree on that). Any changes made severely affect the game. And even if someone corrected ALL these typos in a mod (which I doubt) he surely hasn't thoroughly tested it (how could he?). And even after that there will be new exploits and so on.

Working on a game after the release must be really frustrating, for people mostly do nothing but flaming the devs for their WORK (wasn't there a guy here who called them "lazy"?) while sitting in their comfortable chairs in front of their computer, spending FREETIME. Yes, we paid for the game. But what about the years spent to delevop and create such a game? Even for that they deserve the whole money. Believe it or not, you can't force them to do anything.
And for threatening not to buy their new games? They'll simply close the studio and reassemble under another name and everybody would run and buy their new game.

So my advice to you relic people: take your christmas holidays. Don't do nothing but see your friends and family. You deserve it as much as anyone else. And I'll gladly wait 'til feb for the patch.

[meppa]

Dear Worf, Community is making maps faster then relic is. 2 new maps was just unneeded. Fixing bugs was needed. And game is pretty well balanced after all, it is not perfect but it could be alot worse.

What i really dislike and am angry about is nice people that are constantly saying in every thread, that is not happy about patch or relic, "Please don't tell relic their work is not perfect" or "I hope mods will come in and lock this thread as this is whining about patch". This is also flaming you know. Flaming against people who are trying to say that they are unhappy. And lets face it patch was terrible, but they will also make a third patch. Perhaps they will make it bit better if we let them know that we don't accept everything and we demand quality. Closing down studios and creating new ones is quite poor way and does not help you since you have to start from beginning. You won't have ready customer base if you start new company.

To answer in every part of Worfs post i need to make an advice to relic also, so: Have nice christmas holiday and when you come back from vacation, that is much deserved, start working on this game and fix issues and make us happy. No more new maps untill you have fixed more important issues. I have faith in you and know that you know how to do things correctly.

[Worf]

Dear meppa,
I'm not trying to flame you. In fact, I'm really appreciating the work you do on the .lua files and the whole stuff in the modding community. That's not the point.

But just imagine you made a mod. And the first thing I said after testing it was "Dear meppa, your mod is crappy s***, its imbalanced, you made that and that mistake etc." The proper way would be: "I appreciate the work, but I'd like to comment the following..."
Since you're not getting paid for that it isn't fully compareable but I hope you get the idea. If everybody started their comments on this patch the same way, only 4 words, nobody would have minded imho. But that's exactly what didn't happen.

I'm unhappy with the bugs too. But as cowboy said, they don't have the big patch ready yet and the two maps were ment as a holiday present. That's totally ok for me. And of COURSE does the community make maps much faster. They are spending their free time on it and put in every effort. But the common gamer doesn't search the net to get 2 new maps, its much easiert to get them via a patch. You don't know where these maps came from, perhaps they just didn't make it into the final release. I don't believe there's someone not working on the patch but making maps instead.
So I really don't see the point why we should not accept this patch. Yes, it would really have been better to precommunicate it and give this explanition PRIOR to the release so that people would not be that disappointed (since waiting for bug fixes and getting maps instead).

In fact I don't want to have a patch that simply fixes the typos as this would imho further imbalance (NOT balance) the game. So let's give them time, let's wait.

[meppa]

I would think it is good to get even those kinds of messages, since they help me balance that mod. Worst case is if there is no feedback at all. Can't really tell if it is good or not then, since you don't know. If we all say that there is no problems this would be the case in here. And problems wouldn't be fixed ever. Complaining and moaning is important part of this fine fragile network that tries to handle communication between angry mod (as in customers) and poor little good guys who are just trying to make world a better place (as in developers). Lets not disrupt flow of information by driving away people who are telling that this game is not perfect.

[Worf]

And that's really not my intention, believe me. Feedback truly is important.
I'm just moaning myself about the tone and the style. Since I believe it to be really disappointing to be, before even starting to do constructive criticism (if ever done), called a "dumb monkey" (as done in another thread).

[meppa]

I agree with that one, but i also understand that trying to complain is nerv wrecking business in here. For one nice complain post you got 10 fanboy messages saying that he is wrong or that complainer should stop playing and go elsewhere or anything other as constructive. There is an old saying in this tiny country "Forest answers as it is yelled at" or [niin metsä vastaa kun sinne huudetaan] as my English is far from perfect little explanation might be in place. This mean that you will be answered in same tone and feeling you are using. Perhaps feedback would be more constructive if it wasn't flamed by fanboys the moment it is written and people would write more nicer posts about unhappines if they wouldn't be told to shut up when they do so.

EDIT: You rarely see complainers post in thank you threads or have happy holidays threads. Atleast not as often as you see fanboys post in whine threads saying that everything is perfect.

[Worf]

This is a mutual thing, and also the question wether the chicken or the egg came first.

I think we "Fanboys" are just annoyed by the fact that mostly there is no appreciation for the devs work and in almost every case not even constructive criticism in a whining thread. Both sides haver their point but you need to get them balanced. But since we are repeating arguments I'll stop this here ;)

P.S.: I know the proverbe, there is a similar one in german. And you're totally right.

[Moe]

Meppa: You kinda did it yourself there :)
Stay on topic please?

[Quitch]

I started this topic feeling pretty mild. Disappointed with the patch, sure, especially after 1.10 was such a pleasant surprise, but by the end of this topic I was pretty cheesed off with all those annoying forumers who insist on coming out of the woodwork every time Relic does something to say that, glory unto heaven, a divine deed has been done and no one shall criticize it.

Well sorry, but we shall because it's a pretty poor effort, utterly undeserving of the 1.20 moniker. Nor am I grateful because after-sales support is something I expect. I do not consider it a luxury. If they didn't fix the bugs in this game, I simply wouldn't see any reason to buy their next one. They know this, I know this, we both know this, and I see no reason to pretend otherwise. Relic aren't big enough to sell on brand.

[Inf]

My heart took a small break when I read this; A Relic thread! =)

I love the game, but I don't play as much as I did the first two weeks. Wouldn't you be tired of having ~300+ ping in every game you play? Now it's even worse because my internetprovider is making some changes wich will give us dynamic IP. I'm now sitting on a 2Mb and still experience immense lag =(

But enough whining, sorry if I killed this now ;)
Keep up the work, relic, talk to us when you feel like it and know you have my support.

[meppa]

My bad, sorry. Cleaned that away.

EDIT: I sorry worf that i went personal with that message. I was in a hurry and didn't think right. Still there are no excuses that help with these kind of things. I made a mistake and I am sorry for that.

[Dymo]

meppa, you have a valid argument about bugs. I do not think that point is in dispute. But ragging on the poor Devs after they say they are working on it, over and over and over, gets rather tiresome really.

How many times does one have to say that a BUG exists, followed by the Devs saying "Yes we know and are working on it" before it sinks in. They know already!

What we, the supposed, Fanboys are attempting to do, myself at least, is to offset the seeming overwhelming negativety that seems to permeate most threads. Especially the ones where the Devs come to tell us stuff.

So often people complain about the devs never talking to the community. No wonder for crying out loud. Look at the response when they do!

What we need is a Thread for Complaining about Complaining. Now that sucker would be one Busy thread. :)

Happy Holidays and please drink Responsibly.

[ShoenVar]

Some of us appreciate your hard work. Keep on that!!
And Merry Christmas.

[Battleraptor]

The fact is relic havent been open in there interactions with the DOW players.

Had they started a thread/written in the patch readme file that this was a MINOR patch solely to add a few things over xmass and they are still working on a major bug fixing patch.
99% of the people that are apparently "whiners" would not have a problem.

They did not, they only CAME OUT after the outcry.
Rather suspicious to me, especialy after they explain it was basicly a xmass thing... *COUGH* wouldnt you HYPE that up to begin with and explain.

To all you fanboys, Im sorry if I have problems with the bugs and imbalances in this game and would like to see them fixed. Im not used to paying for something to only get a pile of steaming crap instead of what I asked for.

The problem isnt with the bugs themselves, but relics support.
Take the support anyway you want, patch or public relations.

There failed.
This game has so much promise, so excuse me while I get pissed about what it isnt but could be.

There expressed that they are working on a proper patch... Good and I am happy about that, but excuse me if I am not entirely satisfied.

Next fan boy that wants to complain about any one of us "whiners"

Please post us or paypal our full purchuse price for this game, I am sure we will all happily go away once our cash outlay for this game is recovered.

New Release=EXPENSIVE
3 months later
DOW is already 50% cheaper.

See the problem here?
This is a RTS, one of the major things for RTS is online tourneys. When there are major AI bugs that can cause you to lose a game you would otherwise win, IT IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM. There are people who are professional gamers, they make a living off playing games, DOW looked like the next World wide RTS since starcraft. So my question is this, if this game is so good as it is, why is it not so popular... Granted its early times yet, but the movement has been very slow even for this early.

As for the cost fo the game.
Sure we can give relic time to patch, but ironicly it would have been cheaper for us to wait for when they do patch the game properly and then buy it.
For half or less price.

The second extremly ironic thing here is, Relic more then likely gets the same royalties if we pay 100 or 50 for this game.

[AOIXenocide]

Ok Color me blind but I have no idea what the big complaing/Whine/B*tch/Moan session about balance is.

As far as I am concerned the game is balanced. It sounds that some online players are getting their feelings hurt because they loose one to many games before realizeing they just plain suck.

I for one know better than to play on line. I don't play the game very well in the first place and most people on line have no respect for the "SPIRT of the game" and exploit the flaws (kinda like real life and real military tactics. I don't remember hearing the Iraqi Republican Guard complaining about balance).

So get over the balance thing and appreciat a well made game and enjoy it. I for one think its brillant and want Relic to stop worring about patches and get to work on an add on for more races and or units.

Thank you Relic for the patch and the new maps.

[Tacit]

I'd like to step in here to clarify a few points...

1) For those of you who feel that DoW has amazing potential and that we obviously must not see it. We see it! Remember, we made this game. :) Please do not confuse your frustration at seeing bugs in the game with a belief that we do not care about it.

2) For those of you who feel like we should communicate with the community more and let you know what we're up to. As you can see clearly from this patch, attempted fixes don't always work out as intended. I'm always hesitant to announce fixes before we are absolutely sure they have passed QA, which is why you have typically seen me post the patch announcement the *second* I get the 'all clear' from the test dept. It's not that we don't want to communicate our plans more...it's just that we don't want to make promises that we can't later keep.

3) There are no small fixes to the game. Everything we change has a potential impact on some other area of the game, perhaps many of which are not transparent to you. We appreciate all your feedback and requests for fixes, etc., and we do take them into consideration and log them and analyze them and make decisions about what we can and cannot do. So, please don't think that just because you haven't seen *your* particular favourite fix, that it's been ignored.

So, in short -- we do listen, we do care, we see the game's potential, and we love it as much as you do. :)

[*Eroes*]

Wow, that is a GREAT post! ;)

Just a question: when you tell "we see the game potential" does it mean that you intend to support the game and maybe work on some expansion?

In my opinion DoW can become the Starcraft of the new century: let's work on it and maybe we'll see it in the World Cyber Games ;)

[Civik]

Tacit, as a support person working at a software company, hopefully that information will help people understand why you should never ever ever ever EVER assume how things will work when the patch is complete and tested.

I'd rather have a patch available to fix the issues that exist and causes as few repurcussions as possible than some hurried piece of programming that causes more problems than it fixes.

Some people just don't have patience... and they are usually in the minority. Crying about it ain't gonna get it fixed any faster. Just like continually hitting the ctrl key is not going to make your computer go faster (though, studies are out on elevator buttons as research has been inconclusive).

[Tacit]

From Eroes:


Just a question: when you tell "we see the game potential" does it mean that you intend to support the game and maybe work on some expansion?

What it means is that we are not oblivious to how enjoyable a game DoW is.

[solar71]

First off... GREAT GAME!!!
Secondly... There are many people that could fix some of these problems for you if you released some of your code... or outsourced some of the programing work... I know money is tight but cmon now...
You need to start throwing banners up on the DOW web site / Forum, even the online lobby... I know you dont charge a fee so thats really cool... But you need to generate some money somehow so you can justify improving DOW ... PLEASE!!! With a cherry on top... :)

[CrossOfFire]

Eroes, You're not talking to one of your buddies, Show some respect.

Let me explain something when I say gratitude and respect, it honestly sounds like the Relic team is under funded and over worked. It appears that they are putting the best foot forward in trying.

I don't see stereo typing out of people on this forum against people who support this game and who don't support it as productive. I realise that we all get arguementative, but, I also understand that there are problems with the game. What I am trying to get across is, show some respect for guys who are working on it. Two They're working on it apparently, and they're tuning the game trying to improve it. Three, many of you don't even have anything productive to say.

I honestly think DoW's true test will be a test of time, to see what they turn out. The Game is still growing and changing, they made the game in two or more years, I doubt they can just shun a market and let a product become out dated just because they want to balance it perfectly. It is getting there, and they are working apparently on another Patch, and probably will be after that, but don't just Demand things.

Alot of the People on this forum don't put in the consideration of what efforts are being extended to make this Game become it's potential. If you don't believe me, read the man who is working on the Patches' post. He seems to be very lively and motivated, he also is presenting you facts that come with running a business and corporation. They fix things and then they have to test them, then re code it in different languages, 5 from what they said.

Relic, keep up the good work, sincerely, You guys did a great job.

[meppa]

Tacit, thanks for letting us know but it would really help if you and your fellow developers would post into those bugsubmission threads. Just a quick "Noted" would do when you read that thread, it wouldn't take that much time and we would know that you have seen that and logged it, processed it, evaluated it or anything you wish to do with it. You could even have a big sticky in that forum with nice neon colors saying that this does not mean you are working on it and it only means that you have read it. It is quite frustrating to post anything in there as there is no activity from you guys in there.

CrossOfFire, I doubt that you truly know anything about Relics finansial situation but i can agree on that their patch team seems over worked. This is just so hilarious that you are not allowed to ask any quality for game products. If DoW was an airplane that crashed into mountain killing all passangers and crew because of an technical fault I bet you would be saying that "Don't say bad things about makers of this fine airplane, it is a good plane and it is not their fault that it didn't work since you can really expect them to make a working product that doesn't have flaws.". As for respect, never knew that this was so formal place. Oh.. Sorry let me start again..

Dear sir CrossOfFire. May I tell ask you couple of questions? ...

[Tacit]

Meppa...we don't have the time to post 'Seen it, thanks' for each time someone submits a bug or change request or suggestion, etc. We do go through the forums (not just these) and gather the data, and we consider it. As you can imagine, with a vibrant community such as this one, with people who love one race over all others, who have certain system configs. vs. others, who speak different languages from others, there are so many different things we have to consider when making decisions about what to support and what to leave alone for now. We are constantly assessing requests vs. resources and making judgment calls about what to focus on and what to put aside, just as we did throughout the development of DoW. These are the decisions that all game developers are forced to make.

[FM_Surrigon]

I'd like to throw my support behind Eroes. It's not whining to actually want balance changes in a seriously imbalanced game.

I played since beta and there are tons of thing that should be in the game but aren't. Reinforcement times during combat being the big one, abilities like bonesong (I think that's the one) that were removed, etc, as well as regular balance changes.

Wanting these changes doesn't make you ungrateful, it only means that what matters to you is not just that relic cares about fixing things, but that they actually fix things.

I stopped playing awhile ago because I don't like playing imbalanced games, and I'm waiting for a good patch to bring me back. I'm sure I'm not alone though I won't pretend to guess how many people are doing the same.

Anyways, it's good to see you care Relic, though that should be automatic since you made the game, but I for one would like to see a balanced game sooner rather than later.

[meppa]

Tacit, I fully understand that you don't have extra time to spend in forums, but with this kind of feedback from your end it just feels pointless to post about issues or bugs. Even reading that answer doesn't help as it just makes me feel that you don't even want to have any info about bugs we identify for you. If you want us to continue caring for this game and identifying issues you must create some sort of feedback system for us. Perhaps one post in week/two weeks/month saying what data you have collected and what is your initial toughts about that data. I am not asking for promises of certain features, just a note that you have noted our ideas/bug submissions/toughts. Something that will help us have faith and continue giving you feedback.

[CrossOfFire]

Meppa, I know you don't have that great of a bearing of English, but you can read my post, can't you?

I didn't say don't tell them there are problems, I said don't try to wrangle the guy into an arguement, you don't know what under lying issues that they're not at liberty to speak about. You can give your opinion, but You and other of this forum, have basically thrown what I said back at me as if I didn't say a word. Meppa, let me tell you something, Showing no respect will earn you no respect.

My post was more directed not at the game makers, but at the Conduct of this Forum's members. Do you understand that? Yes, there is a time and place to talk about the game, but don't turn this into a arguement over conduct and slack, tasteless remarks.

Yea I like the Relic workers, I think they've done a hell of a job balancing the game, your pessimistic attitude is what pisses me off. Along with the lot of you, If you've ever had to support and work on a major project maybe you'd understand how much effort and protocol is behind it. The guy's working, and he's said that, and he SHOULD NOT have to repeat himself to this Forum because of people comparing the imbalancing issues, TO DAMN PLANES CRASHING INTO MOUNTAINS. Get your shit straight, kid.

Well, Regardlessly of the shame that some of you bring on yourselves, I'll let it slide, because the general public is ignorant, and this whining stuff just gets on my nerves. Yes there are imbalanced issues, but there are in SC, there are in every game. But in the other forums, they said " That's life " and dealed with them in a civil manner, or tried to find a way to counter problems. There maybe some programming problems, but they're working on it, and pre-released a portion of their Patch for our enjoyment.

It just infuriates me to see these kinds of out bursts and comparisons, trying to threaten the Relic Team by wildly inaccurate comparisons to other games that aren't anywhere near this platform that are years younger.

I still stand behind Relic, and I figure if I'm a fan boy for supporting some guys who apparently, and have proven tonight that they give a damn, which they should not have to be battered by the consumer but they chose to do it. You don't understand what kind of devotion there is to this game by Relic.

By the way, It has been stated that they went over budget with this project while designing it, You do have no idea where their financial situation is.

Regardlessly, Thank you all for your time.

[Demonhorde]

tacit: One question are you trying to get to the bottom of the ATI + nforce2 + AMD. In the help folder it list all of these configurations as having potential problems. All i can say is that im still experienceing crashes and im not the only one that is frustrated out of my wits.

battleraptor: I couldn't agree more, relic must realize that if this is the level of a so called "finnished product" were lots and lots of people get frustrated and are unable to play they need to do fixes rather quickly. I for one will not buy a relic product in the first couple of moth, or before im fairly serten that the game is playable without crashing.

since i could have picked it up after christmas and saved cash. As it is now i have maybe played 50 games online and a 1/3 of them i have been unable to finnish due to crashing.

[|AXiN|]

Tacit: Just a suggestion, but perhaps stickying in the Tech Support forum a thread listing all currently known bugs might be handy. If you limited posting in the thread to mods only, and assigned a mod to keeping it updated, the community would be able to see very easily what issues you are currently aware of and trying to fix. This is something my other favourite company has implemented, and it massively reduced both angry unsatisfied and angry in response fanboy posting.

That aside, I have to say that one of my main problems with the 1.20 patch was the way it was presented. In a patch going from version 1.10 to 1.20 I expect serious amounts of changes, balances and bugfixes. It is, after all, a move of ten decimal points. If this patch had been released as, say, 1.12, I very much doubt the outcry would have been anywhere near as bad, as such a small move is indicative of not too much being changed/rebalanced/whatever. Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the work you're putting in on this game, but for a 1.20 release this, well, sucked.

[naradaman]

I love this game and am a big fan of what relic has done with it, BUT there is NO! i repeat NO excuse they can summon for the lack of work on patching! I realize patching takes money and staff time. But this is something the developers should have a budget for or atleast try to squeese some out of their publisher. I know that i speak for many whn i say im terrible dissapointed so far, in IGN and PC gamer etc i read that they would have scored the game even higher hadn't there been so much ruff edges. That exactly how i feel when looking at this game, its a unprocessed jewel! maybe thats why it hurts me so much when saying this critisism. But i feel it must be said with all this yes men around.
The excuse is buried in your post actually. Lack of money and staff could well be the problem. Who knows maybe THQ are tight asses who won't give up any money for post-release development. THQ rushed released this game, putting pressure on Relic to finish it as far as I've herad. This can probably account for the unprocessed jewel effect.

I suppose a yes man is someone who doesn't agree with you?

battleraptor: I couldn't agree more, relic must realize that if this is the level of a so called "finnished product" were lots and lots of people get frustrated and are unable to play they need to do fixes rather quickly. I for one will not buy a relic product in the first couple of moth, or before im fairly serten that the game is playable without crashing.
Like I just just wrote, the game was rushed to a finish, therefore (I surmize) Relic could not do all the stability testing they would've liked. Nevertheless, with every game relase, there is always systems that will refuse to run it. It's a certainty when developing games, whether it be a graphics incompatibility or just not good enough specs.

Yes, call me a fanboy if you must. There are 2 extremes being expressed in this thread. People demanding better service/support and people saying we should be grateful for the current service/support we get. I do not feel compelled to be grateful for the game (after all I did buy it), but I also do not take for granted the patches and support we get, because I know that they could be doing a lot worse in the grand scale of things.

It could be doing alot worse under EA.

[Boomstar]

First its really really nice to see you guys taking an active part in, communicating with us.We can be a real pain the arse some times (I should know I'm one of them :D ).Its good to know that you guys want to see this game be all it can be.And we can only hope you get the means (and time) to do it.Its good to know you care about your fans/customers(As you wouldn't be here at all if you didn't give a damn).

Second people get really frustrated some times(Again I'm one of them :argh: ).

I don't wana speak for others:

Wanting these changes doesn't make you ungrateful, it only means that what matters to you is not just that relic cares about fixing things, but that they actually fix things.

I stopped playing awhile ago because I don't like playing imbalanced games, and I'm waiting for a good patch to bring me back. I'm sure I'm not alone though I won't pretend to guess how many people are doing the same.

Anyways, it's good to see you care Relic, though that should be automatic since you made the game, but I for one would like to see a balanced game sooner rather than later.

But this exactly how I feel, and its what I believe a large part of the playerbase feel.

[LarkinVB]

Tacit: Thanks for the feedback. I still would like to know why Relic didn't fix obvious lua bugs/typos or other bugs (direct connect ...) which don't touch balance ? None of your comments shed a light on this. I just don't understand.

[Moe]

He did mention that they were working on the direct connect problems but that it didn't pass QA in time to be released with 1.2.

[Kamikaze]

Thank you very much, it's great that you listen to us and want to improve the game fun.
The map crossroads is great, though a bit small for orks. In the next patch a new map with a lot of space and only a few tricky path would be great. Yeah i know it's only me opinion, but you just read it.
Time to kill some SM now :)

[TBS]

Tacit: Thanks for the feedback. I still would like to know why Relic didn't fix obvious lua bugs/typos or other bugs (direct connect ...) which don't touch balance ? None of your comments shed a light on this. I just don't understand.

if you think about it they actually do touch balance (with the exception of those causing graphical glitches). Despite what the pessimists say the balance in this game isnt too bad, eldar vs ork is the only real problem and many of the other issues only arise at very high levels of play (and fixing those issues could well destroy balance at the lower levels - ie for the majority of players, its very difficult to achieve true balance at all levels of play). Now, many of these lua typos cause units to do different damage to what was intended, yet the game is reasonably balanced...so surely fixing these typos can only cause imbalance (it is too much to hope that all the typos would exactly cancel each other out).

[eltroubabadour]

about 'imbalance' problems, below are figures taken from ladder webpage
Eldar 54% Chaos 54% SM 52% Orks 52%
Don't know for Eldar Vs Orks though

For me, balance is not a problem, btw i am a SM player, the one of the two underpowered race , well i just wanted to say that balance problems must be solved but don't came first on my list

[gadom]

well i only play LAN (my ping is horrible), and i think that this patch work quite well,
i've really seen a difference with the IA (she is better)
(but i never had a crash or something like this even in LAN)
I think that before crying it's better to post suggestion, and not yelling at relic developers. This game is really enormous with all the chapter andrace that could be input, it's quite normal to have bug in a game like this.
I'm just upset with RDN tools which is really difficult to understand (especially for a frenchy)
have a good Christmas

[Moe]

*Eroes*, CrossOfFire, take your personal issues to PM please.

[jesukrixto]

Haven't seen any disrespect in eroes way when adressing tacit. He has the right to complain just as anyone else, and to point out what he thinks is not working in a product he bought.

There's two extremes here, and people that lean to one or the other in such a way that any other opinion sounds like blasphemy to them. And it shouldn't be that way. It's funny how some demand respect (where there's been respect already), but then give none in return. Not agreeing with somebody and telling so is not a lack of respect. Treating other's peoples opinions of childish when they are not is.

By the way, at some point I read something about meppa's bad english...I'm not a native english speaker either, and maybe that's why I understand meppa better than the one that insulted meppa for his english. Anyway, insulting people's intelligence is a lack of respect as well...

Yah, lack of respect is really "infuriating" isn't it...burn the heretics...

PS: On topic, thanks tacit for sharing thoughts and opinions, but I do agree with some posters that some knowledge, maybe not of what's going on, but that something's going on, would help many of us feel better:)...also, it'd be nice to hear some comments on the balance issues the community talks about, maybe not your intention to modify things, but what you think of them. I mean, not every little thing, but things everybody's talking about...In my opinion programatic bugs are more important to correct than balance issues, but I'm not too much of a competitive player, and I mostly play 3v3 or bigger, so most of those balance issues are just not an issue for me...

[Worf]

Concerning more feedback from the developers:
Even reading threads like these (right now 9 pages and the suggestions-thread is even longer) takes a lot of time. Unfortunately not every post contains something useful. Remember the bug submission forum before the relaunch. Who wants to decide which thread is important, which one isn't? And there surely are duplications. Answering even only the important posts would be a full time job alone.

And of course the devs are also supposed to work on the next patch (including .lua-typos which cause balancing problems, messy hardware setups, nat and router issues etc.) and the next game or expansion (yes, they are doing that as well since they'll get no further money from thq if they don't). I don't know how many people are working at relic but this is enough work even for a big staff.

I know it is frustrating not to see any response and a thread of acknowledged bugs REALLY would be a good idea and of a lot of help.

As for the balance-fixes:
Blizzard kept balancing the original Starcraft (not BW) until patch 1.08 which was released in may 2001. That is about 3 years(!) after the release. Starcraft has only 3 races while DoW has 4. Do you seriously expect relic, with a smaller budged and less manpower, to create a balanced game within 3 months?

Patience is a human virtue guys.
I was told patience can be a more powerful weapon than the sword.

[CrossOfFire]

Moe, to be frank I flew off the handle yesterday, I did lose patience, but not invalidly. I apologize to the forum, but I think you as an Moderator should also intervene when people start making personnal attacks such as Fanboy, and also to play the devil's advocate, When whiners are attacked.

I would really like to see this as a discussion of facts and theories, this entire forum rather then just, some half-baked idea that they throw into a thread. But then again, this claim is in the wrong Thread I'll end it here.

In short, My apology, and choose your words better next time.

[spaceyme]

In my opinion DoW can become the Starcraft of the new century: let's work on it and maybe we'll see it in the World Cyber Games

AoX _IS_ the Starcraft of the new century have you not tried it? I'm done with DoW and moving over to AoX. DoW is a great game and well worth the money but i'm tired of hanging around getting frustrated playing Chaos (those that say the game is balanced would perhaps like to explain the lack of Chaos players in the top 20?). Fixes / balance changes are too slow, period.

It's obvious a lack of funding and misguided direction from THQ is the cause of the grief. The only glimmer of hope for this game is that Relic are working on 'the expansion' that will not only have loads more content but lots of balance / fixes too. THEN we might have a challenger for 'the new starcraft'. But until then is all about AoX.

[Quitch]

about 'imbalance' problems, below are figures taken from ladder webpage
Eldar 54% Chaos 54% SM 52% Orks 52%

The fact that those figures are all above 50% should suggest something to you about their usefulness in a balance discussion.

[TBS]

whats the problem with the numbers being above 50%? Eldar and chaos win 54% of their matches and SM and Orks win 52%. There are balance issues but they arent game destroying - those numbers all being around 50% is one of the indicators of a balanced game...if one of the numbers was ~70% then that race would be overpowered, if one of the numbers was ~30% then that race would be underpowered. Obviously theres more to balance than that but the fact that a key indicator is pretty much on target can only be a good thing.

[meppa]

Actually it doesn't matter that those values are above 50% but they still don't tell whole truth as it is only general stats. You can't get very much info out of those values since they just tell how many battles some race wins, it doesn't show us how many eldar vs ork battles orks and eldar win neither does it tell us how many 1v1 automatch games those races win.

Those values only show as that relic did alright with balance and nothing is totally out of balance. All races are usable and playable, but still might have inbalance in them. To do a proper statistical analysis you need bit more info then just 4 general stats :).

[TBS]

indeed - thats what I meant when I said that those stats were only one of the indicators of good balance. They do show that what balance issues there are arent as terrible as some people make out...in truth this game is very well balanced for the length of time it has been out. Anyone thinking that its possible to have an RTS perfectly balanced by release needs a reality check - no matter how long is spent on balance the RTS community will still find some strategy or specific build order or use micro that makes the game imbalanced.

[General Blaze]

Good to know that you still care Relic. Even I'm surprised how patient you people (Relic) are especially with all the "OMFG. GAME'S UNBALANCE! I'M NOT PLAYING ANYMORE! RATHER PLAY ARMIES OF EXIGO!" going on.

Speaking of which:


AoX _IS_ the Starcraft of the new century have you not tried it? I'm done with DoW and moving over to AoX. DoW is a great game and well worth the money but i'm tired of hanging around getting frustrated playing Chaos (those that say the game is balanced would perhaps like to explain the lack of Chaos players in the top 20?). Fixes / balance changes are too slow, period.

It's obvious a lack of funding and misguided direction from THQ is the cause of the grief. The only glimmer of hope for this game is that Relic are working on 'the expansion' that will not only have loads more content but lots of balance / fixes too. THEN we might have a challenger for 'the new starcraft'. But until then is all about AoX.

AoX. oh right. The Starcraft clone. Oh sure. (Sarcasm) AoX is a great game! Much more balanced then DOW! Best of all, JUST LIKE STARCRAFT! Whoopee! (sarcasm)

Seriously though, the reason I chose DOW then the other RTSs is because it's fresh unlike most RTSs that uses the same formula over & over again. (Mining gold, cutting wood, micro like crazy..etc.Note: Not to say I don't like micro, but excessive micro can be annoying like a certain Blizzard RTS that ripped off Warlords Battlecry ) If I wanted to play a clickfest Blizzard game, I'll play Starcraft. I don't need another "Warcraft/Starcraft styled" game. If any of you think that "Starcraft style" gaming is the way of future RTSs, then...I have nothing else to say to you 'cause it's hopeless.

[solar71]

one silly thing i noticed....
When some people talk about SERIOUSLY imballanced races...If you go look at the totall win/loss numbers for the 4 races, its only about 2% that seperates the "BEST" from the "WORST" now, how is this EXTREMELY imballanced ?

[General Blaze]

Well, those same people are mostly pessimists. They never look at half a glass of water as half-full, but half-empty. Same meaning, different view. Applies the same way. A 2% difference is enough to make them scream.

[spaceyme]

AoX. oh right. The Starcraft clone. Oh sure. (Sarcasm) AoX is a great game! Much more balanced then DOW! Best of all, JUST LIKE STARCRAFT! Whoopee! (sarcasm)
Yes that's what said, that's exactly what I meant too, honestly, get some comprehension skills. I was responding to the poster who wanted to think DoW could be the new Starcraft - of course it's OK that he can say that about DoW but I can't say that about AoX can I? We can't talk about other games here.. noooo!

If I wanted to play a clickfest Blizzard game, I'll play Starcraft. I don't need another "Warcraft/Starcraft styled" game. If any of you think that "Starcraft style" gaming is the way of future RTSs, then...I have nothing else to say to you 'cause it's hopeless.
Starcraft is still the bechmark when it comes to strategic depth in an RTS, nothing has come close to it except now with AoX. You might say it's hopeless but lets judge this game against AoX in a years time shall we?

Well, those same people are mostly pessimists. They never look at half a glass of water as half-full, but half-empty. Same meaning, different view. Applies the same way. A 2% difference is enough to make them scream.
Perhaps you and your "man this game is insanely balanced already" friends can explain the lack of Chaos players in the top 10 on the 1v1 ladder? Actually make that top 20? Hangon - top 50? Wait! While we're at it lets take a big look at the Chaos players in the top 100? Niiiiice. Take a read of the "Chaos style over substance" thread for some half decent proof.

[General Blaze]

I'm not saying I didn't like Armies of Exigo because "it's like Starcraft, which I hate". Don't get me wrong. I like Starcraft. I just don't like it when someone makes a direct clone out of another, whether it's balanced or not. That's why I said I'd rather stick to Starcraft than play a different game that uses the EXACT same formula. When it comes to RTSs, it's best that they take RTS gameplay to the next level rather than limiting themselves to one simple formula. I however, do agree that Starcraft DOES have certain strategic depth.


Perhaps you and your "man this game is insanely balanced already" friends can explain the lack of Chaos players in the top 10 on the 1v1 ladder? Actually make that top 20? Hangon - top 50? Wait! While we're at it lets take a big look at the Chaos players in the top 100? Niiiiice. Take a read of the "Chaos style over substance" thread for some half decent proof.

Er, you DO know that Starcraft had the exact same problem until 2001? Took 8 patches in 3 years just to get it right. That's why it's so perfectly balanced now. I never said DOW was perfectly balanced. Granted, it's got balance issues but then again, so did Starcraft.

As for "not many Chaos players", not many people are comfortable playing as them yet. Give them time. Judging by your statement, you have yet to encounter an excellent Chaos player. (I used to think Orks are the underdog untill I started playing as them. Now, they are far from useless. Same with Chaos.) If Chaos is so underbalanced, how come there are players who can use them so well? Granted, there aren't many, but they are growing...

[n0z3k1ll3r]

The game isn't balanced, but its way better than the "ZERG PWN ALL!" that early starcraft was.

[gadom]

what DOW is not starcraft,
in DOW you create a squad you don't have to go back to producer post for upgrade number of unity in a squad, you don't have to click like a crazy for attack or defend, in dow you've just have to choose if you're troop are on defense or something else.
when you fight in dow you've got time for seing what is going (which could be terrible with starcraft or warcraft, nearly impossible for noob, when you've got firing unity that go on contact, that's pretty ridiculous)
and in starcraft when you're fighting if it take more than 15 seconds for a battle that's a record, you've got plenty of unity who fight together, and 5 second after, pouf, no-one, it's a good game for people who stay hours at learning all shortcut

Starcraft is perhaps finish but it came out in 1996 (if i make no mistake)
and even now there is still patch (which means that even now it is not finished yet :-)

i prefer DOW cos of the fast, i don't have to be everywhere with everything.
Honestly i think that i'm too older for learning at clicking in a craziest way in a game, dow is more tactical than starcraft, and you've got time for doing your stuff.

I'm a fan of warcraft 3 and frozen throne and since i've buy dow, i don't want to play them, too fast for me.

i will perhaps hurts people but simply:
starcraft is for 10-18 year old (cos of the skill of children, little finger, brain which working fastly)
Down of war is for 10-60 year old (time for thinking) :-)
i prefer dow than all blizzard stuff :-)

for the patch i f they could put a resume button for multiplayer game
And if it was possible to when we fight against computer easy and difficult computer together
sorry for my english i'm french :-)

[|AXiN|]

While some of that is true, some of it simply isn't. Most, if not all battles, are decided by their micromanagement - where to direct each squad's fire, how to tie up as many squads as possible with the least men, that sort of thing.

Starcraft lurched from Zerg pwning all to Zerg getting pwned to successful through a series of patches, which was bad for gameplay, but showed that the developer was listening to the community. Community said Zerg were too good - they got nerfed. Community said Zerg sucked - they got powered back up. It took a while, but the end result was worth it.

With Relic, the main communication seems to be along the lines of "We're aware of your concerns, but there are balance issues." My response would be, so what? There are balance issues now. Release the patch, let us see what we think, then respond to how we recieve it. Relic should be responding to the community, not the community to Relic. We paid for the game.

[Stazbumpa]

But if the community are talking out of their collective arses then Relic releasing a patch that pandered to their whims would only be counter productive.

For example: a lot of people here whinge about Dreadnoughts and scream nerf at every opportunity. To nerf them would go against the grain of what a Dreadnought is, same with Scouts. Same with PSM.
Most of the nerf cries result from bad tactics and massive doses of "I'm not playing anymore unless you fix this".

There isnt a lot that actually needs fixing in this game, and most of what does is .lua typos. Its one of the better out-of-the-box games I've played to be quite honest, and I've been doing this since ZX Spectrum days.

[Moe]

Since you people love to compare this game to Starcraft, I'd like to point out that it took eight patches and three years to balance SC. You are already screaming bloody murder after three months.

[gadom]

Moe is right let give them time!!!
but do they have time when you see all the mods in progress that gonna made problem of balancing too :-)

[|AXiN|]

For example: a lot of people here whinge about Dreadnoughts and scream nerf at every opportunity. To nerf them would go against the grain of what a Dreadnought is, same with Scouts. Same with PSM.
Most of the nerf cries result from bad tactics and massive doses of "I'm not playing anymore unless you fix this".

There isnt a lot that actually needs fixing in this game, and most of what does is .lua typos. Its one of the better out-of-the-box games I've played to be quite honest, and I've been doing this since ZX Spectrum days.

Then, to be quite honest, you need to play it a bit more. While Dread nerfing is a bit iffy, and PSM are a part of easily the weakest race in the game, Scouts are obscene. And I say this as a SM player. Scouts are just obscene. For more info, ask Havoc ;)

There are many, many balance issues to be addressed (two words - Warp Spiders), and there are a fair number of technical issues to resolve (AMD+nForce2+ATI = no DoW).

The basic problem is that yes, this is a good game. Yes, it has potential. No, the developers aren't forthcoming. And most importantly, yes, the 'pro' players are starting to leave.

Ask yourself this (the community, not just Stazbumpa) - why is it that the majority of the 1.2 comment threads and the compaints come from the most hardcore players? Who then immediately get fanboys and 'for fun' players telling them that they're wrong. The 'for fun' and fanboys aren't playing for keeps the same way that the hardcore players are. And those guys need an absolutely balanced game, or one which feels like it's getting support. The feel of DoW is that the devs are brushing these guys' concerns off.

And no, I'm not a hardcore player. I suck :p

[keroppilee]

I have an nforce 2 with a barton 2800+ amd athlon and an ati 9700 non pro and my dawn of war works fine.

[gadom]

i didn't knew pro player where leaving this game,
that quite important.
That's means that's there is really a problem with balancing.
Bu i would like to know how % of the people use ork,eldar,SM and chaos
i'm sure the majority are on SM and chaos

[Dymo]

"The 'for fun' and fanboys aren't playing for keeps the same way that the hardcore players are."

Umm I hate to ask, but what exactly do they get to keep? I'm pretty sure the "for fun" bit was what the Dev was striving for. Just a stab in the dark though really.

If what you say is true then apparently those players should be the most patient since they have the most to gain, err I mean keep.

I assume this Forum is regularly archived because if some of the suggestions asked for get implemented, due to vocal noise, it will be good to be able to go back and see what the thoughts of the time were when the new whines begin. It is a vicious loop really.

You know the old addage. "You can Please some..." yada yada yada!

[Stazbumpa]

If Pro players are leaving then all I can say is "so what?". the game doesn't need them, no game needs them. Most of them are arseholes anyway.

And yes, I have met some.

[|AXiN|]

If Pro players are leaving then all I can say is "so what?". the game doesn't need them, no game needs them. Most of them are arseholes anyway.

The thing is, the game does need them. The pro players are the ones who keep the game alive, and who bring in the new meat after the initial 'new game' period. Look at Starcraft, or even the infamous Counterstrike. Do you really think either of them would be where they are today without pro players? Both games are, because of the support of pro players, staples at every gaming contest.

Yeah, some of them may be arseholes, but they're necessary arseholes. People who play just for fun are great, but, just don't take the game seriously enough for competition, and with competition comes longevity. I mean, Starcraft is six years old. Who the hell plays a six year old game?

(BTW, sorry to keep quoting you - nothing personal)


Bu i would like to know how % of the people use ork,eldar,SM and chaos
i'm sure the majority are on SM and chaos

Last I heard it was something like 22% of people on Chaos. Chaos is dramatically underpowered, for reasons that are kind of hard to pin down (For example, Cultists. Without nades, are overpriced at 2 pop. With, though...) This is especially noticable when you look at the competitive ranking, with their absolute dearth of Chaos accounts. Most of the Chaos accouts in there are good Eldar/Ork/SM players trying to see if they can do it as Chaos anyway.


Umm I hate to ask, but what exactly do they get to keep? I'm pretty sure the "for fun" bit was what the Dev was striving for. Just a stab in the dark though really.

If what you say is true then apparently those players should be the most patient since they have the most to gain, err I mean keep.


Why should they bother to be patient? They need a good, balanced game now. Or else they'll drop it and move onto something else. And when I say they're playing for keeps, I mean that they are playing in an extremely competitive way with winning at all costs being the objective. Don't troll, it's impolite.


I have an nforce 2 with a barton 2800+ amd athlon and an ati 9700 non pro and my dawn of war works fine.

And I have a AMD 64 3200+, nForce2 and ati 9800pro, and can run it. The problem isn't universal. Go to the technical issues forum for information.

[Dymo]

"Don't troll, it's impolite.

Be nice. You almost hurt my feelings...

I won't (troll) anymore if you promise to not come in here and try and tell us what has already been said a thousand times, anymore. Fair enough?

Without a search engine online, it does makes it hard to find stuff, but what your talking about, its easy to find and has already been said. Best part is that if your right, then no need to worry yourself about it. The game will be long dead before you get to return and tell us that you were right.

Play the game, become an expert and don't leave. That would be one less lost to the abyss.

It's a game. It is Fun. Sure it has some issues when you dig deep enough. Sounds like standard fair to me.

Happy New Year btw. :) CYA in 2005

[Sajuur]

Lets keep the arguements confined to PM please, don't need them here.

[2-nephilim]

Guys you should read an article in the latest PC Gamer (uk edition, page 22). Its all about how hard game developing staff have to work. It also has some quotes:

"I dont see long hours and crunch times going away - that's just part of the industry..."

"The absoloute utter lack of respect for workers as people who have lives is disgusting. Skilled workers are dedicating their entire lives to the production of these titles - but a request for humane conditions is rewarded with disdain and dismissal."

"Game developers are grossly underpaid. When you factor in the horrific work schedule, you are probably worse off than if you were in a sweatshop in Indonesia."

The quotes are anonymous and are not pointed at any individual software house but at the industry in general. With That in mind maybe we should cut the guys at Relic some slack, be grateful for what we have and look forward to whatever the guys at Relic give us. This aint an ass kissing post and i know that everything in print should not be taken as fact, but from what little i know about the industry it seems to ring true.

[General Blaze]

Took the words right out of my mouth. :)

[Xes Haereticum]

First of all - hi to all you guys here.
Been following the forums for a bit now while enjoying the game and felt to respond here.

I'd like some of the guys here to give Relic a break. If you just simply look at ANY game that came out in the last couple years and came name a flawless one I'd be happily eating my words, but I dare say there ain't.

I'm not that much of a high end player yet so I might not have encountered some of the inbalances it has, but one thing I know for fact.
Relic has made (parts) of the Wh40K universe come alive for me in a way I could have only dreamed of so far. Provided I'm a big fan of the Games Workshop TTs, I still love to see my orcs set shop on the map while gearing up to mosh away the enemy. So I dun even have an issue with building a base in this game o_O ... never thought I'd actually say something like this, ever.
Yet I'm far from wanting to sound like what some call a fanboy. I too have encountered some disconnects, and yeah stuff like that can be annoying.
But I take it from what some ppl post here that no matter what Relic does they're dissatisfied.
I strongly believe if the devs gave info on a patch like 2 months early, they'd get flamed to hell and back in the second the patch is out and one of the announced features was missing.
On the other hand, the devs too get flamed for not announcing anything until close to release. WTF.... this game is 4 months old and to me it seems more polished than games which are way older.

Take Eve Online, a mmo I just recently quit my subscription for (after 1 1/2 years, mainly out of boredom with the game finally). They get constant funding, yet still they have issues on a regular basis. Servers not working, unscheduled downtimes, patch that fubar royally, ppl losing their hard earned stuff they took 2 weeks to get to a bug in a split second etc...
Or take Soldner Secret Wars, a game that came out so buggy that it was basically unplayable.
Or Soldiers - Heroes of WW2. The dev team being nice enough to beef up the mp part and delivering everything they said the release version would have and then moving on.
No mod tools released nothing, so eventually, the community is gonna be extinct. And NO word from the devs, just some community liason guy on the Codemasters forums saying that the devs stopped working on Soldiers to move on to another project.

With all that in mind, Relic is doing very well, have delivered a kick ass game and I am sure are on a good way to provide us with lots of fun throughout 2005.
Relic wants this community apparently, Relic even actively supports modding and on top of all that, unlike other game devs, they at least show some dedication by coming to these forums and respond despite the flames and whines.
And oh yeah... if pro gamers give up on games after 4 months, there is not going to be many pro gamers in new games soon cause NO game is going to be 100 % balanced and all polished on release (they always have the option of playing console games online btw ^^). That's the current state of the industry and there ain't nothing we can do about it.

[|AXiN|]

The pro players eem to be beginning to give up because of the lack of communications from Relic. If they felt that their issues were being addressed, or even that the devs were up to date on what is going on, they probably wouldn't have such a bad reaction, but the fact is that even when threads like this one come up, the devs rarely post. The vast majority of favourable posts in these threads are from pro-Relic fans and fanboys, which is nice to see in that it's nice for any company to have a loyal following, but the pro players, and not a small number of casuals like myself, would like to have more communication with Relic and a greater understanding of what's going on with regard to the game and to patching and so forth.

[General Blaze]

That's true. The truth is because they DON'T want to make empty promises. Like a certain publisher did for Homeworld 2. He kept posting that they promised that they'll fix this and that. Few months later, his promises go unheeded and then left the community to escape the heat. Relic had decided they'd rather give info when they're ready and waiting then to just announce it to everybody straight away, and later discover that they couldn't do it just yet. Think about it.

[Stazbumpa]

My beef with the pro gamers comments is that if they are leaving because they think Relic isnt making the game the way they want it then good riddance to them, because its Relic's and GW's game, not theirs.

I just have issues with what basically amounts to a few uber-geeks telling a company how things should be done.

[General Blaze]

Yeah. Plus, it's the uber geeks that caused Battlezone's developer to breakdown and scream at them ever since he made a few new changes to the sequel.

I'm a geek myself, but those people have taken it too far.

[Tacit]

Relic had decided they'd rather give info when they're ready and waiting then to just announce it to everybody straight away, and later discover that they couldn't do it just yet.

Exactly.

AXin...we're aware that the game is not perfect, and we're 'up to date' on the situation. Thanks!

[Alpha_1]

The pro gamers can go take a leap for all I care, lets look at numbers shall we?

How many pro-gamers are there for every casual gamer, .000001, .00001, .0001, .001? The fact is there are FAR fewer 'pro-gamers' than there are casual gamers, so listening to the demands of a very few gamers who are more interested in being #1 than if the game is a quality title for the casual gamer is simple folly. Now that isn't to say they don't have good points or have listed rediculous suggestions, it is simpley a matter of economics. You fix the problems so the LARGE number of casual gamers can casual game, you fix the balance at a SLOWER pace so as not to throw it totally out of wack. Unfortunatly these 'pro-gamers' are too impatient to wait around for the game to get to that point.

If you don't have the patience, posting won't improve your demeanor. Insisting you are the sole person capable of, or qualified to, argue balance on any game just shows how worthless your opinion really is, that and how big your ego is.

[General Blaze]

Tacit's back! Whee!

seriously Tacit. The crowd's getting restless. Work your way on Patch 1.3 and we'll be ready and waiting. (Just make sure it's a big one this time. We don't want another 1.2 incident.)

[|AXiN|]

How many pro-gamers are there for every casual gamer, .000001, .00001, .0001, .001? The fact is there are FAR fewer 'pro-gamers' than there are casual gamers, so listening to the demands of a very few gamers who are more interested in being #1 than if the game is a quality title for the casual gamer is simple folly. Now that isn't to say they don't have good points or have listed rediculous suggestions, it is simpley a matter of economics. You fix the problems so the LARGE number of casual gamers can casual game, you fix the balance at a SLOWER pace so as not to throw it totally out of wack. Unfortunatly these 'pro-gamers' are too impatient to wait around for the game to get to that point.


But economics are the point. Without pro-gamers, how long do you think, say, Counterstrike would have lasted? A year maybe, so that's not even beta 6. But wait, hold on, pro gamers got into the game, decided it had potential, was alive and kicking, and now you have Counterstrike being sold as a standalone and CS:Source shipping with Half-Life 2. Those few, evil pro-gamers wrecked the community. Or not.

Pro-gamer provide post-release publicity and bring in new players, which means new purchases. Do you really think they'd still be selling Starcraft if noone was buying it? And people buy games that old only if they know that they're being played. And who's that playing them again? That's right, the pro-gamers. The large numbers of casual gamers aren't as vital, because they don't bring in anywhere near as many new players.

Of course, with this game, the situation is a little off, because it's a conversion to PC of an enormously successful (if obscenely overpriced) tabletop wargame. But just because you feel that there aren't many pro players, or that you don't like them, or whatever, doesn't mean that you can dismiss their influence on the lifespan of a game. But they'll only contribute to that if they feel, at an early stage, that the game is going somewhere. And from what I can see, they aren't feeling that way. Hopefully, with the return of the devs (Hi Tacit) we'll see a new patch soonish, and some of the problems will be fixed.


AXiN...we're aware that the game is not perfect, and we're 'up to date' on the situation. Thanks!

This is good. Communication. Is good. But could be a little more verbose.

Oh, and
We don't want another 1.2 incident yeah. That was messy.

[Dymo]

Umm... |AXiN| This may seem strange but, this sentence does not make economic sense.


"The large numbers of casual gamers aren't as vital, because they don't bring in anywhere near as many new players.

The emphasis being on the 'large numbers bit'. Without large numbers of any type of gamer, pro or casual, a game goes no where.

Do you currently play Starcraft competitively and on a regular basis? The reason I ask is you seem to compare DoW to SC alot, so it seems proper that you would be playing both games to assure each games survival.

[Stazbumpa]

You fix the problems so the LARGE number of casual gamers can casual game, you fix the balance at a SLOWER pace so as not to throw it totally out of wack. Unfortunatly these 'pro-gamers' are too impatient to wait around for the game to get to that point.

If you don't have the patience, posting won't improve your demeanor. Insisting you are the sole person capable of, or qualified to, argue balance on any game just shows how worthless your opinion really is, that and how big your ego is.

Fear the truth when it is spoken, especially the last bit. As I say, pro-gamers are in the tiny minority. As for the suggested effect of pro-gamers on CS, well that was a Half Life mod folks, and I understand that Half Life sold really rather well because it was good rather than a few supposed professionals making it sell because of their wonderful endorsement.

Michael Jordan on a Wheaties box, they ain't.

[Alpha_1]

You really think CS would have lasted only a year without the CPL or other gaming leagues? Correct me if I'm wrong but CS had over 50000 servers running back in 1999-2000, 50000 servers, with just 10% of those servers populated that is still 5000 servers with people on them, I can remember getting results of 100000 players or more online. CS didn't survive because of pro-gamers, it survived because it provided a twist on the standard deathmatch. Team play is usually more fun than pure deathmatch. Casual gamers laying CS kept it alive not the few hundred/thousand pro-gamers.

Face it, without casual gamers pro-gamers wout not have a pro-game to play, you don't buy enough games between you to keep the industry running, casual gamers provide the funds for that.

[Moe]

Unsticking this now. Feel free to continue the discussion, the thread will be left open.

[|AXiN|]

The emphasis being on the 'large numbers bit'. Without large numbers of any type of gamer, pro or casual, a game goes no where.

Do you currently play Starcraft competitively and on a regular basis? The reason I ask is you seem to compare DoW to SC alot, so it seems proper that you would be playing both games to assure each games survival.

About the economic bit, my reasoning is that by now most of the casual crowd have already bought the game. The only real way to get more money out of them is with an expansion, which may or may not be in the works, depending who you talk to. Pro gamers, otoh, keep the game alive and visible, thus encouraging more people, both pro-hopefuls and casuals, to get into the game.

As for SC - no, I'm actually not a fan, it just always seems to come up. I'm far from the only person using it as an example, and it seems to be one most people are familiar with. Basically, I'm doing the bandwagon thing ;)


You really think CS would have lasted only a year without the CPL or other gaming leagues? Correct me if I'm wrong but CS had over 50000 servers running back in 1999-2000, 50000 servers, with just 10% of those servers populated that is still 5000 servers with people on them, I can remember getting results of 100000 players or more online. CS didn't survive because of pro-gamers, it survived because it provided a twist on the standard deathmatch. Team play is usually more fun than pure deathmatch. Casual gamers laying CS kept it alive not the few hundred/thousand pro-gamers.

Well, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Sort of ;) When I say pro-gaming, I don't just mean CPL and so forth, but the groups behind them, in particular the clans. Clans are the basis of competitive gaming, especially in FPSs. When you have a look at a given server of CS, either now or back then or any time in between, somewhere between half and three quarters of the open-to-everyone servers will be clanners. That's just the open ones, not including the clan or otherwise specific ones.

One of the big things which turned me off CS was the fact that as a game it in fact doesn't support team play any more than Q3's TDM. The whole element of teams simply lowers the number of people you can shoot at. Compare it to DoD, or FarCry's Assault mode, which really do encourage teamplay by forcing team members to cooperate and rely upon each other.

The vast majority of the CS scene is and was pro gamers. Of those 100 000 players you reckon you saw, I'd say at least 60 000 if not more were pro. Go to a given CS forum and have a look at how many clan tags are floating around. It is a pro gamer's game. The fact that so many pro gamers were willing to take up CS is what kept CS selling. Another element, of course, is that obviously many casual gamers bought the game, and then turned pro.

Pro gamers, in general, take games far too seriously. I'm certainly not one, especially not of DoW, which I suck at too much. Pro gamers are not necessarily getting paid. Professional here doesn't refer to doing it for cash, but to doing it all day, every day, as the major event in their lives.

[Xes Haereticum]

But then referring to those ppl as pro gamers is kinda wrong... rather consider them geeks ^^ (I'd include me there any day :D )
And don't forget - the vast majority of the clans forms once the game is out, not before.
And how many of those clans are actually just a buncha guys doing their clan thingy for fun? How many are serious about it?
When in your estimation 60 k players play CS pro/geek style, I dare say most of them got hooked by the initial Half Life in the first place. Remember CS used to be a mod....

Same can be said about BF 1942. That game attracted many ppl for MANY reasons. Some might have seen chances that it might offer decent competitive gaming, some were just attracted by the WW2 setting and the ability of using vehicles from that era, and some (including me) play any WW2 based game with a passion. And then came Desert Combat. Suddenly many ppl not only played it for a change but switched over to it. Hardly something the mod team could have expected.
And you just need to look at WHICH companies make those insanely popular games - companies that have the funds to not only support them almost indefinately, but also are so well funded that they can afford insane marketing campaigns.
Take Blizzard's SC for example.
Then another thing. SC and CS were the ones to come nearly first, with Warcraft back then being the only true competition to Starcraft.
People who get good in a game after a while tend to stick with it (Tribes 1+2, despite Vengeance being out, still have one hell of a community).

The one question that arises is ... how on earth does a dev team know right off the bat if their game is gonna attract those competitive players?
They can only do their best in trying to balance it well, advertise it, keep the amount of bugs to a minimum and hope it sells well... and then all that is left to do is make sure to do as much for the community as needed to attract more ppl (forums can be very helpful for potential customers to see how a game is doing, I know that first hand since after checking the Soldner - Secret Wars forums I avoided the game like the plague ^^).

So in conclusion, if anything its the genre's freaks/geeks to keep a game alive imo - those also get the word out to ppl. I think their number exceeds the amount of ppl playing games in a dead serious competitive way by far.

[craNk]

Wait...

You just say... ppl's in Clans = Pro gamers?

lol?

Anyway, I think you have a good point. A game needs Progamers to be in the News. A game whitout them drains out (Battle Realms anyone?)

[Stazbumpa]

Heartily disagree. A game sells because it is good and/or has decent marketing. I mean, take The Sims for fecks sake; how many pro-gamers play that? And we cant seem to shift the bloody thing off the No1 slot over here (and it aint coz its good either).

As someone said, the uber-geeks that play games too much ain't pro's in any sense of the word. They are actually the ones we laugh at because they are so sad.
There are VERY FEW professional gamers in the world today, and I can't think of any names to be quite honest.

And absolutely none have for one second made me want to buy a game.

[Vajper]

Just fix the router-induced (we think) lag/delay bug detailed in a couple of places on the technical assistance forum and I'll be happy.

[thudmeizer]

Just fix the router-induced (we think) lag/delay bug detailed in a couple of places on the technical assistance forum and I'll be happy.

Actually, many PC games have Router/NAT issues. DoW's is easy to fix (if you have more than 1 Router/NAT connecting to, say, your DirectIP game, go into yer TCP/IP setting and add a second IP - this workaround is for the ones using Router/NATs!). Works great in DoW and we've had up to 5 people DirectIPed some with Routers and some direct-connected. Still.. Hope Relic fixes this long outstanding prob!! Seems silly as most of the users out there have Routers/NATs due to Internet hacking/malware attacks..

[lowlander]

just remember , almost every one that playes WH40K TT will buy and play this game , and a expansion if adding a race like TAU or Tyranids will bring in more TT players "WOW MY (instert race here ) ROCK in this game ".
LOL
I like the game so far very much, I dont play Starcraft and more thats for my 10 year old son LOL

[SgtSteve]

Lowlander has an excellent point! There's a lot of other races out there, and adding them in would surely attract the table top veterans of those forces. I personally know one Dark Eldar and another Tyranid (well, more a genestealer cult army really) that have seen his game, but not bought it yet. If their respective army choices became available, even if it was through the mod community, they've both said they would buy it in a heartbeat.

To be honest, they're both close to buying it already, and likely will as they are also huge fans of the 40K genre in general. Still, as Lowlander said, more races would surely equal a larger player base.

Wouldn't it?

[thudmeizer]

hehe.. Tell those War40k TT Clans that both a DE and Nid Mod are inbound and watch their face light up! I think if more TTers knew about the community rallying to ensure all War40k civs are represented in DoW even if Relic/THQ decide not to go forward with more expansions passed the expected first one, then I bet you'd see a flood here. Alas, I can't just walk into a GamesWorkshop and start advertising about Dawn Of War as it apparently will hurt the TT business to hype it there. No imagine if all civs were in DoW over the course of the next 2-5 months? Should be bloody fun to see what the clans will do and how their contributions will be to the online community here.

[bubbapook]

Personally, I've been playing the game since the beta, and call me a casual gamer but these hardcore moody types that flame you if you choose the wrong BO get on my tits. If the uber-competetive 'pro' players are the ones that are supposedly keeping this game alive, as opposed to the people that actually play for fun, then I'm thinking its time to choose a new game for my latenight multiplayer exploits.

As for the Devs, I take my hat off to em. I play with a couple of the testers, and they are constantly working on the game - unlike some people that just love to complain around here, they are genuinely working on whatever they're given; they dont always have the luxury of saying right, im gonna work on chaos balance all day. IMHO, any and all support they give us is welcome, as they're simply trying to extend our enjoyment of the game, and that should be applauded.

[EzyKill]

I'm Impressed by this post how ever I think Relic has been fixing the wrong things and leaving the worst issues ignored.

[General Blaze]

To each his own actually. YOU may think that they're fixing the wrong things, but what of the others? Also, if the concentrated only on what YOU want fixed firts, then others will still complain. It's a vicious cycle. No matter which they fix first, NO ONE will be truly satisfied.

[TBS]

what are the worst issues in your opinion?

[Alpha_1]

I'm satisfied that we have recieved more than one patch, I'm also satisfied that it will not be the last one either.

As far as I'm concerned the meer fact THQ is keeping Relic patching this game is enough reason for me to anticipate the next product Relic is going to put out, especially since THQ is going to be footing the production bill for it.

THQ > Sierra, that is good enough for me to look forward to NSP5 (or is it 6?).

[Bonestein]

I for one would have rather have you fix the NAT problem before any other problem.. It took all of 4 hours to beat the game and so my friends and I wanted to play online via Direct Host and Direct Join, but no. you have to jump through hoops and get disconnected and it really sucks.

questions are always, have you connected directly to your modem yet? yes, no one else in my house can use their internet connections, but I can connect now.

or if you take your computer to a friends house, and try to connect via direct join to another friend, you can connect when both people are behind the same router, BUT, one of you is going to get kicked out of the game 2-5 minutes into it.

small bugs don't need to be fixed before large bugs.