View Full Version : How to do Space Marines
11th Aug 02, 9:42 PM
After a cursory look at the threads and not seeing one directly related I have to ask; with everything else that is to be going on in HW2, I gotta wonder how one could practically do boarding parties of space marines ?
I think it a great idea, but not to the extent that you try to fight FPS or operationally fight a battle on a single ship while trying to maneuver fleets. Is there a relatively easy way for the computer to deal with this kind of fight while the larger battle rages?
I was thinking that there are two types of Salvettes (so to speak). One is the normal one at standard cost, but now it only hauls compliant things like dead ships and rocks. The other vette is an assault vette that comes with a compliment of space marines. Ganz ganz more expensive but allows you to attempt to take down and sieze enemy ships. Now the math part would have to go something like the standard 3:1 to have a good chance at success (three times the attackers as defenders). By this I mean that say it takes 3 salvettes (by current convention) to grab a ship. Well now for a sure thing you need nine. Less does not mean you won't win, just lower probability. Now as you attack this ship its ability to fight is either gone (for simplicity) until resolution, or decreases as more of the ship comes under control of the attacker (50% control = <50% fightability).
Maybe someone does not want to take the ship as much as get it out of the fight while other ships are fighting. (Banzai assault on a cap ship just long enough to even the odds on the rest of the fleet). Could lead to some interesting ploys.
Well one of you computer smart types tell me if this makes any sense.
Rounds complete, keyboard clear and safe...
11th Aug 02, 10:22 PM
This topic has been suggested before, but I think that corvettes that can haul off heavy cruisers is slightly . . . out of place. The space marine idea is good, but I don't want to manage ten of them just to try and capture a frigate. I don't want chances either. Luck shouldn't play too much of a role in RTS. They should keep the same function more or less, but they should be tweaked.
11th Aug 02, 11:50 PM
I think luck is all important in every RTS, because that's realistic. In a real war there in a chance (albeit tiny) that a scout could make a damned lucky shot and take out a heavy cruiser.
As for the marines idea, I think we may well have ground troops in HW2 anyway due to the presence of non-void combat, which I take to mean that there will be asteroid based ground combat.
This could easily be adapted for fighting on board ships.
That would be nice and make the game more interesting, but it would also be kinda stupid because the previous salvage corvette did not need boarding parties...so its kinda like going back in time in terms of technology.
12th Aug 02, 12:35 PM
let's suppose the capships have stronger engines and more secure computer systems.
13th Aug 02, 8:14 PM
I agree with Vijil that luck is a part of the game (and reality). There is a famous quote among fighter pilots that it is better to be lucky than good. Luck though is if you use less than an overwhelming amount of marines to seize a ship. I just think that it would make for a more interesting dynamic to the salvage/steal element of the game. With boarding/assault salvettes you now can steal ships (at greater risk) or blow them up to a point where the trusty old salvette can haul the junk back to base. But if you steal the ship you get it into operation sooner.
Curious how folks would want to fight this. I would not want to have to fight the marines while the big space battle is going on but would rather have the voice of fleet command tell me how they are doing or a progress bar like that showing the amount of resourses aquired by collectors.
14th Aug 02, 2:07 AM
I would argue against a status bar for this reason: a status bar is a bit unrealistic, as in real combat you, the fleet commander, would have little idea until things clearly turned one way or another for the boarding parties.
I would prefer a more organic interface, through battlechatter. For instance, if the battle goes poorly for your marines, you would hear 'we need reinforcements!' or some such, while if it went well you'd hear 'the bridge is nearly ours!' and so on. It would give a feel for the battle, and the chatter should remain consistant and be informative. Like the chatter in the original HW, most of the time.
Just a thought. Oh, and hiya all. New poster.
14th Aug 02, 7:42 PM
First Welcome aboard! Alway good to see new blood.
I think you have a great idea for the voice indicators. That is probably more realistic. Still I would think that some kind of visual indication, would help you to reference how the battle is going. Of course it would have to be over the enemy ship since it would have to be aggregate for the all of the ships (marines) that are part of the boarding party.
Next question: What happens if you loose? Do the assaultvettes debark and haul a$$, blow up, or become war prize to the victor?
15th Aug 02, 12:02 AM
If the plan to modify the capturing of vessels from the tractorbeam/control nullifying system of old to the new marine boarding scene some things need to be looked at.
One thing for instance is why are tractor beams now useless? You could argue stronger engines.. but then why not just mount a short range ballistic weapon on an assault craft? While the main ships engines are online the smaller assault craft gets pulled along. It in turn trains its snub nosed cannon at the greater ships engine, pops off a shot... smaller assault vessel now can tug it anywhere it wants.
Now a better argument would be some sort of energy shield. Rather than an assault ship now tractoring a capital ship it must now move into an "orbit" around the craft and launch independant marine troops in powered vacsuits to enter and take control of the ship. The boarded ship should be allowed to target its own weapons until such such as the boarding takes place, at which point the gunners are too busy stopping gunho enemy marines from introducing them to the funtime end of their blasters.
Now with this scenario in mind you could have a swinging indicator above the ship (green 'n' red) which represents the current win/loss status of the battle. If the bar turns completely green then congratulations, the ships energy field is disabled and the assault ship engages their tractor beam. If the bar is starting to turn completely red you are about to lose and you either move in more marine bearing ships to help bolster your forces, or move your ships away quick smart because as soon as the enemy dispatches your invading marines, their main weapon batteries are going to come online again... and no guesses what they'll be aiming at.
That answers the question of what would happen to the assault ships if they lose. If they run away at a crucial time they live for another day. Their marine complement should have to be "refilled" by docking to the mothership. Also such an assault ship cannot leave orbit of a ship they are currently invading without either;
(a) attempting to recall all invading marines (which would result in the enemy regaining control of their ship and start shooting at you during the valuable seconds it takes for your marines to reboard); or
(b) abandoning all remaining marines on board the enemy ship who instantly lose as moral fails due to your retreating ship, AND loss of shipwide communication between each individual marine on board the invaded vessel which was orginally made possible by the assault crafts more powerful communication array. In this situation the invaded craft will once again have control of their ship again but this time will take a couple of seconds to dispatch your team, however your assault shuttle will not be tied to the ship for those valuable seconds... they can instantly run like hell.
To turn the tides of war later in the game you could also include ship technologies such as internal security stations (which is going to make it hard for your marines to breach), improved power armour ("Is that all you got??"), and the like.
There ya have it. Extra technology, an assault marine boarding system that is realistic, and one that can be easily tracked as to whether it is working or not.
18th Aug 02, 4:17 PM
I personally like the idea of space marines and most of the suggestions that are on this thread. However, there is another thread that suggests that people be used as a sort of fleet limit and to make you care more for your ships. I just think that if you combine these ideas, then you have a problem, because the entire effectiveness of space marines would become pointless. Instead of capturing an enemy ship, you just build a new one and it costs less people because you don't have to battle over one and them get it recrewed. Correct me if im wrong, but the idea i got from the people thread was that over time, more poeple that can be used as crew are unfrozen from crogenics over the course of the game. So, in the end, the marines are pointless. Any possible solutions to such a problem?
18th Aug 02, 10:51 PM
With the assault shuttle concept its only reason still comes down to allowing the craft to be boarded, tractored, and then reconfig'd back at base. No matter whether you introduce the people system or not it still doesn't change the fact that you might want your enemies newest ship, and their own specific technologies, to use as your own.
The use of marines won't allow you to FLY their ship, only take it over to allow your launching assault shuttle to tow it back to base. New Technology! (or refitted ship... but eh!)
If you introduced the people system the only real effect will be that assault shuttles and marine complements will be more precious, and more feared.
Precious because for every failed, or even successful mission, you will have to recoup your losses by returning to base to train up recently thawed crew (which would have a tiny resource value attached per member to reflect armour and weapons). If you were a assault ship crazy player you might start severely eating into your manpower.
With the people system included the Fear factor would increase. Even if the invading team loses, your capital ship that had 5,000 crew onboard (who managed to repel the boarders) still takes 3,468 casulties. This ship is now forced to return to the Mothership to recrew before it is allowed to return to full battle readiness (reflected by reduced damage rating of weapons, or even how many weapons it can now use at one time). Engine speeds would not be effect because the crew of a crippled ship would STILL want to get it out of there as fast as possible REGARDLESS of the unmanning of weapon consoles.
The people system would open up a new strategy. Can't destroy their fleet? Simple... annihilate their crew. Sending in 200 power armoured and armed marines versus a crew of 5,000 might be suicidal and always unsuccessful, but in the end the crew toll your enemy takes will be far greater by a factor of at least 10.
Oh and one other thing. The PENALTY of becoming an assault shuttle crazy player is that such shuttles would probably have little or no effective space weapons, and if an assault shuttle was blown out of the sky before an invasion was begun, or even DURING an invasion (by another ship) then you would lose your ship AND its 200 (or less) marine complement versus the very little or NO crew loss of the enemy.
Choose your poison :)
19th Aug 02, 9:21 PM
Shaitan has really developed the concept much better than I could have. I don't think I could come up with a better method. So I will toss out a couple of other ideas within this particular thread about Space Marines. I have to agree that the assault vettes would probably have little in the way of firepower, but what about clock capability? Or does that put it into "super system" catagory? Since you can already clock salvettes I think not. Raids to distract the enemy would become a great tool for the game... "Warning carrier under assault!" Anyway would add a very interesting dynamic.
Other thought I had is that what if your Marines got better with experiance (a la Ground Control)?
19th Aug 02, 9:49 PM
The experience system of ships would also apply to your marine complement. A battelion of battle-hardened marines are of course going to be more deadly with their weapons as they keep a cool head in the heat of battle, plus they'd be familar with the enemies tactics in trying to defend themselves, and they may have already have boarded this type of ship class before.
"Sergeant take a squad of ten men down that corridor, take the second left, and you'll find a door halfway down on your right. Go into that room firing and you won't have too many problems. Thats their messhall."
Of course refitting your Assault ship with new marine crew would adversely effect the experience level to better reflect the new recruits being used as replacement. The experience level wouldn't take such a complete knock because the older more experience marines can still teach the new recruits a thing or two, and hand them useful information like the example above.
20th Aug 02, 2:42 AM
hmm... the reinforcing of ships with green crew would also affect their experience level, no?
So this would bring in a new option as well...
Say a particular elite HC is getting to be a real pain in the posterior. Drop in a buncha troop ships on a suicide mission. Some get blasted by the HC's escorts. Those that deliver their troops still are unable to establish control of the ship but do kill X% of its crew. When it gets new crew it no longer is elite but some other reduced level of experience.
Of course that situation would only be cost-effective if experience level had some pretty big effects of unit capabilities.
If your ship is being assaulted and is losing, you should be able to call in your own troop ship(s) to reinforce its crew.
--And in response to absolute_0...
I believe marines would be extremely efficient crew killing machines. Their transport ships would be sitting ducks, but the marines themselves would kill a lot more of the enemy 'population' than would take casualties. So the system, as I see it now, is as shaiten stated; a new strategy.
Heck, get a bunch of troop ship to invade some poor fools unprotected MS and watch as your marines start laying demolition charges directly on to the enemy cryotrays in-ship. After a bit the sorry sap wouldn't have any people left to man ships.... even if he has controll of 90% of the resource pocktets you would eventually win. Tee-hee!! Sounds like fun.
20th Aug 02, 3:38 AM
Hrm I'd think that attempting to send marines to board a MS would be folly. Not only would their crew be innumerable, the size of the ship would mean that unless many assault ships were to invade simultaneously, they would not be able to engage a clear majority of the ships crew... thus certain gun turrets would still be operational (plus generally speaking the MS is controlled by a human plugged into the ships systems). Because of this guns on MS's would CONTINUE firing regardless.
Plus of course remember where YOUR marines come from... your OWN MS... so it follows that their MS will have their own Marines to repel yours. For a variety of reasons I'd like to see the MS immune and off limits for potential marine tactics.
However as to the rest of what ohaunlaim has to say it would still hold true and add that extra dimension.
You'd still have a possible way to win even *if* you don't have a hold over a majority of the resources in the area.
20th Aug 02, 6:02 AM
Resourses... hmmm should one assaultvette be able to take down a resourse controller, vice two salvettes? Can a bunch of Marines take on a ship load of miners??
What I'm really getting at is should an assault vette be more powerful than a HW salvette? Still think you need the salvettes to move the prize. Could lead to some interesting fights. Side A attacks and seizes a ICF, but not before loosing one to many salvettes. Floating around Side B attempts to retake ICF with its own Marines
20th Aug 02, 7:41 AM
No you see thats the whole point of introducing the marine concept. Improvements in either computer or shield technology have made the orginal snatch and grab techniques of Salvage Craft of old obselete.
Because of these a group of marines are needed to board the ship in order to disable the shield technology or computer to allow the marine corvettes to then engage their own tractor beams (up until this point useless) to tug the ship back to your MS.
Salvage ships just don't exist anymore... they would have been modified to allow a marine complement, or the whole ship plan scraped and the tractor beam equipment refitted to ships specifically designed to move and launch space marines.
Maybe if you wanted to go the distance and take into account the boarding of Resource Controllers then you must really know how the resources get from the Controller, back to the MS, to be used for ship building. Does the Controller have a one way tranmission gate open to transfer the goods, does the Controller have its own hold which the MS pilfers from when needed or full, or does it have a resource transmission link between both MS and Controller.
If the latter is the case then it would be possible for marines to board the controller, and manage to pilfer some resources from the enemies MS before the pirated link is automatically detected and shutdown. This would then force players to take their resource collection operations more seriously then we do at the moment. This would force more strategic considerations because it would force a player to split up his (or her) forces in order to meet all possible threats.
20th Aug 02, 9:02 AM
Because of the similarities between this subject and the thread about 'People I Want People!' Ive decided to combine both subjects together into a new thread to get a better picture of the whole deal, and to expose readers to the ideas put forward in this other thread.
Please read this thread as well and place any replies in the new combined thread.
20th Aug 02, 12:27 PM
Enough talk...I think we need to see these marines.
Whaddya think Ignus? Up to the challenge?
8th Sep 02, 8:02 PM
Hello! Newbie here, first post ..
About these marines -- what's to stop the ship being boarded
from solving the problem by simply venting drive plasma into the space the marines are in? As was done in HW:C?
Interesting -- could also be possible new research option:
Intruder Defense. Any ship possessing this technology is
significantly harder, if not immune, to board and capture.
11th Sep 02, 5:37 PM
Well I supposed you could vent into parts of the ship but that could be bad for the pieces and parts in that part of the ship. Of course the other solution that is more simple is that if you are loosing control of the ship then the the old scuttle solution keeps it out of enemy hands.... unless of course there is a chance that the marines can disable your scuttle capability.
Well anyway welcome aboard.
11th Sep 02, 8:54 PM
um this would suck in multi play but what if when you landed on a ship with a vette you could switch to a fps halo style and try to take over the ship
must get away form halo lol
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