Orks get vehicals too early.

[Comrinec]

Orks are practically unstoppable when played properly because they have a mass horde and vehicals in less than 7mins I mean look at the replay , If I had spent more rescources on teching to rockets I wouldnt have had the troops to defeat the enemy infantry and my troops would have got owned by the slugga boyz before they destroyed the vehicals.


http://forums.relicnews.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1288

[Burns]

What AI are you playing against? Hardest, Insane? Secondly, you are playing against the Comp. Your own build order was bad, you didnt get the armoury up fast enough. You built too many scouts, you did not engage the orks soon enough.

[Gromij]

the AI isnt limited by the same resources players are.

[Beelzebuddy]

Unless it's Insane, it actually receives less. At least, that's how it was in the beta.

[HaXxorIzed]

That's something I find amusing. The computer can pull off a quicker Wartrakk rush than most ork players.

Plus eldar can get vehicles quicker. Platforms take up Vehicle cap, so they can be called Vehicles in that respect.

[Timeless]

Try playing Ork then and you might see the problem with that. Sure, they get them fast, but I think that is to make up for other weakness, like a lack of superior ranged infantry. Also, have you seen how fast some of these whacko SM players seem to be able to tech to machines like the Land Speeder or HF Dread? I'm only average, but not vsing any super players yet (minus the occasional smurf, I imagine) and have had games where the SM player was able to tech to machines faster (rare as it is, just happened last night with some no hero, asm harrass build) and kill my traks as fast as I could get them on the field. Also, bright lances pwn them, as well as haywire grenades. I've seen very good sm players take them out with rockets and I remember when playing SM, I was able to do the same - not all the time, but then I was just out played. Maybe there is a good reason ork get vehicles fast? It's not like a few traks spells the end of the game like an unexpected and timely dread can if you get caught with your pants down.

[Munchie]

A few points:

1. You didn't attack, or at least pester the Ork early enough. An attack at around 2:00 would have probably helped.

2. The computer looked like it was on a pretty high difficulty setting.

3. It tottally out resourced you. It had twice the req and a few times the power you did.

4. "Orks are practically unstoppable when played properly"

So are Eldar, Space Marines and Chaos if all you do is sit in your base.

5. "vehicals in less than 7mins"

I could have a dread by then.

[Fabled]

i can have vipers in 6 or falcons in 5. and some punk called lobster rekons hje can be deep striking in 12. the point is if someones doin this its painfully obvious

[White_Pointer]

Never mind Vipers and Falcons, a good eldar player can have a prism out in about 7 minutes, even if you're constantly harrassing him. A prism is going to do a lot more damage than a couple of wartraks ever will.

White_Pointer

[komninosm]

I'm pretty sure the hard AI and above get the same resources as you if not more. The Insane AI gets more for sure.

[Fabled]

fps take a bit longer than 8 1/2 mins straight rush and thats straight tech no units

[HFX]

The Valley of Khorn is a very hard map for anyone versing Orcs. If you turn the AI difficulty to insane they are next to impossible to beat. I've played quite a few missions there myself without finding any way of defeating an insane AI if the AI was Orc and I wasn't also Orc. I've tried multiple build orders, some which worked better then others, some that didn't. I can get all the way to his doorstep, but all those guns on LP, whaag banners, etc will kill your guys much faster then you can afford to replace them. BTW you get rockets provided the orc has been constantly coming out the base to play, he'll have trakks with bomb chuckas.

I would really like to see someone who actually defeats an insane AI on this map with Space Marines or Chaos Marines (who I don't think can really survive the initial skirmish, lets face it.. cultist without grenades or plasma aren't that wonderful). I would like to test it with Eldar (maybe warp spiders without a building a farseer?)

I did try for the fast to assult and those options left me with nothing to fight the orks. In short, I think Valley of Khorn (2P) severly favors an orc player. BTW, the insane AI does receive extra resources (20% I think). This makes him nearly unstoppable. I'm really think that if your an orc player that this is a wonderful map for you to pull in ladder play unless you go up against another orc (provided you attack quickly). Like I said, not sure about Eldar on this map, I'll check later.

Maybe one of the really highly rated guys can give us a replay or tips on how to beat an Insane AI on this map?

[Dibujante]

Orks get vehicles too fast? How about "SM control the ENTIRE map too fast". As a SM player, just cap all of the Orky points with your scouts while their ineffectual capping units are milling around the first two points. Vehicles are the only thing Orks have going for them.

[gobblet]

fps take a bit longer than 8 1/2 mins straight rush and thats straight tech no units

FP's can come out in under 6 minutes.


Orks get vehicles too fast? How about "SM control the ENTIRE map too fast". As a SM player, just cap all of the Orky points with your scouts while their ineffectual capping units are milling around the first two points.Vehicles are the only thing Orks have going for them.

Really? Did you forget about:


Mega Blaster
Hero cost/respawn speed
Best starting unit
Best builder
Almost immunity to rush
?

[Comrinec]

Well if it gets more rescources then me the ai is pointless to practice against.

[savagedave]

no it isn't, it'll make you a better player if you can beat it

[Dibujante]

Orks certainly aren't immune to a rush and the blasta hero collapses to enemy vehicles. WS+FP will own anything Ork throws out.

[Timeless]

WS can be taken out with good micro and delay tactics to get to Nobs. Nothing is ever sure fire, but it works as long as you don't get out played.

FPs - well, it depends on the map and the flow of the game, I guess. I've seen FPs pop out and literally turn the game around for the Eldar player, like in the recent Left vs Oneguy match on Meeting of the Minds, but then I also made note of the fact that Left's income was much higher - his energy, even with losing nearly all (or even all, can't remember) of his generators, was still like +70 because he'd secured the bigger generator deposit (lol, I forget what it's called). Anyway, so while it appears on the surface that FPs won that game, maybe it also had a lot to do with Left's superior income. I will say that I thought OneGuy was winning that match until the FPs came out, even though OneGuy must have just woke up from a nap as he builds two PGs by mistake. Though PGs do make good, fairly cheap defense and with one placed on each side of his base, I was chuckling, thinking how what if in the future we saw ppl doing this on purpose!

All that said, I've also seen FPs die really fast if the Ork player can push through and kill them before they can be massed and then control the Support Platform. I don't have enough experience with fighting against FPs, though, because I just learned to deal with Spiders not long ago and prior to that I never lived long enough for my opponent to need them. They did seem incredibly powerful in that replay I was referring to, however, and considering how so many people complain about them....

[Demonhorde]

you sir suck, leave orks alone i tell ya or i choppa off you neck and spit down the remnant of your bloddy stump!

[Battleraptor]

Insane Orc battered between my paws then I got bored and finished it.

You want hard, try beating 2 insane orcs :)


http://home.iprimus.com.au/firehawk1/2P_VALLEY_OF_KHORNE.2005-02-07.08-41-45.rec

[HFX]

Battleraptor, I'm off to look at your replay. One thing that does bug me about replays.... I really wish they would show upgrades and stuff being done at buildings.


Okay I finished watching the replay. Interesting stradegy with the two power generators first. I played a similar game earlier (forgot to save the replay, and the rename temp doesn't show up), although I didn't immediatly go for the PG's. I also decided to show the power of infantry (I built a dread before figuring let me make this an infantry affair). I did indeed win.

What is interesting is that on this map it seems to favor you not being aggressive. You should be somewhat passive at the beginning and turtle just enough to get a good supply line going. If I get a chance I'll do another one with a simlar stradegy showing how you can win without Tier 3 if people are interested.

[Gromij]

insane isnt difficult to beat once you are a good player and know what you are doing.


Well if it gets more rescources then me the ai is pointless to practice against.

I agree. There should be AI which is extremely hard but has same resources. I am unable to practice a lot of tactics on the computer on insane effectively to see if they would work online. One i thought must be useless, i tried online and it obliterated the opponent. It was like a whole different game.

[First And Only]

Really? Did you forget about:

Mega Blaster
Hero cost/respawn speed
Best starting unit
Best builder
Almost immunity to rush
?


Forgot:

-Best heroes in the game.
-Ability to come back from a massive loss that would be unforgiving to anyone else..
-Complete momentum control (thanks to PoG and range of fortified LPs).
-Most ability to "switch gears" in terms of strats to throw off or respond to the opponent's strats.
-Fightin' juice (which is FAR superior to Word of the Emperor)