Defiler Autocannon bug

[[Vertigo]]

While playing DoW I sometimes notice that the Autocannon on the Defiler isn't doing what it should be doing. This is kind of annoying since the unit is not doing all the damage that it could be doing. I decided to investigate the problem, and look at what I found:



----------------------------------------
-- File: 'chaos_battlecannon'
-- Created by: AttributeEditor v2.0
-- Note: Do NOT edit by hand!
-- (c) 2001 Relic Entertainment Inc.

....
GameData["horizontal_traverse_speed"] = 45.000
GameData["max_range"] = 80.000
GameData["max_traverse_down"] = -40.000
GameData["max_traverse_left"] = -180.000
GameData["max_traverse_right"] = 180.000
GameData["min_range"] = 20.000
....






----------------------------------------
-- File: 'chaos_autocannon_twin_defiler'
-- Created by: AttributeEditor v2.0
-- Note: Do NOT edit by hand!
-- (c) 2001 Relic Entertainment Inc.

GameData = Inherit("chaos_autocannon_twin")

GameData["fire_cone_angle"] = 30.000
GameData["max_traverse_left"] = -1.000
GameData["max_traverse_right"] = 1.000


I noticed that the traverse angles for left and right for each weapon were different. I adjusted the values and manage to make the problem worse or better depending on the values I adjusted. For example, changing the 'chaos_autocannon_twin_defiler' File to read:



----------------------------------------
-- File: 'chaos_autocannon_twin_defiler'
-- Created by: AttributeEditor v2.0
-- Note: Do NOT edit by hand!
-- (c) 2001 Relic Entertainment Inc.

GameData = Inherit("chaos_autocannon_twin")

GameData["fire_cone_angle"] = 30.000
GameData["max_traverse_left"] = -180.000
GameData["max_traverse_right"] = 180.000


Got rid of the problem completly. Though that fix makes the firing animation very un-smooth looking, the defiler will look one way but be attacking a target somewhere else with the auto cannon, for example.

[sMoC]

The defiler autocannon can fire 0 to 90 degrees right from the defiler turret. So changing it to 180 degree vision would be wrong but it's also wrong that it only fires strait as it does now.

[komninosm]

Erm, he didn't change the vision (fire cone, well pyramid really, and vertical doesn't matter to be precise), he changed the transverse. I don't get how that makes the Defiler face one way and fire the autocannon another. Try it with a smaller fire cone like 5 degrees.
BTW how do the bullets fly?

[[Vertigo]]

The defiler autocannon can fire 0 to 90 degrees right from the defiler turret. So changing it to 180 degree vision would be wrong but it's also wrong that it only fires strait as it does now.


If you look at the data, the Auto Cannon only has a horizontal travers of 2 degrees, not 90 degrees.


Erm, he didn't change the vision (fire cone, well pyramid really, and vertical doesn't matter to be precise), he changed the transverse. I don't get how that makes the Defiler face one way and fire the autocannon another. Try it with a smaller fire cone like 5 degrees.
BTW how do the bullets fly?


I only change how far the Auto Cannon could move by itself to aquire targets. I gave the Auto cannon the ability to target anything 360 degrees around the defiler, independent of the battle cannon. It looks funk to have the defiler attacking a building infront of it and using its Auto Cannon to attack something behind it. I have tried smaller travers angles and that is my next point.


There seems to be an interaction with the AI of the weapons on the defiler, an un-usefull interaction. When the defiler closes to a target below the minimum range of the Battle Cannon it switches to the Auto Cannon and the Flamer(if close enough), but there seems to be AI still working for the Battle Cannon at that range. The Battle cannon will still try to engage targets, and since the Battle Cannon has piority over the Auto Cannon it will engage targets of its chosing.

Here is a more detailed explanation. If I close to a range of 15 meters of a target with the Defiler that will put the Defiler out of the minimum range of the Battle Cannon. The Battle cannon will not be able to fire on the target since it is below the minimum range, but it will be able to fire on any targets above the 20 meter range. Since the Auto Cannon has a very shallow travers angle it is at the mercy of the Battle Cannon AI for targeting. The battle cannon can engage targets 360 degrees around the Defiler the Auto Cannon can only do 2 degrees of that 360.

The Battle Cannon seems to have a mind of its own, it will engage target that are above its minimum range and below its maximum range regardless of what the Auto Cannon is doing. If I am below the minimum range of the Battle Cannon the BC will still try to engage targets above its minimum range, this will prevent the Auto Cannon from firing on the selected target; all because of the narrow travers of the Auto Cannon.

[Thorak]

fixing the defiler is not an easy task, it seems that there are multiple problems that play a role here.

first some words on traversing and firing arcs. please note that the following could be wrong, as it is based on my own experience. usually a unit always aims its weapons at the same direction it moves, traversing allows to change the aiming direction relative to the movement direction, but it needs time to do so (this is defined as the traverse speed, could be degrees per second, but i am not sure about that).

the firing arc is different from that: it defines a cone around the aiming direction, and anything within that cone can be shot. so a fire cone angle of 30 would mean that it could attack targets that are +/-15° of the aiming direction. unlike traversing, it takes no time to switch to another target within that cone.

it seems that the defiler has a special hierarchy in the way the weapons aim and traverse:
the battlecannon has a traverse from +/-180 and a fire cone of 5°, so it can aim at any direction. the flamer and the autocannon have a traverse of +/-1 and a fire cone of 90°/30°, but the traverse does not seem to be measured relative to the movement direction - it looks like it is measured from the direction of the battlecannon instead.

now on to some things that seemed to improve the performance of the defiler:

1. increase the firing cone of the battlecannon from 5° to 15°. it seemed that whenever the artillery scatter determined that the battlecannon shell lands outside the original 5° arc, the defiler would swivel its torso - and the two other weapons attached to it, disrupting their aim - so that the shell lands in the firing arc.

2. increase the firing cone of the autocannon. the only disturbing thing about this is that it does not look right that the autocannon shoots larger angles since it has such long barrels. i felt that changing flamer and autocannon to 45° fire cone angle and changing traverse of the flamer to -15/-15 and the autocannon to +15/+15. that lets both weapons fire in a 30° front arc, also allowing the left weapon to fire further to the left as well as the right weapon to fire further to the right.

3. tone down the scattering effect of the battle cannon (defined in the throwdata part). this is another interesting point: whenever a the defiler tries to attack a squad is scattered around, it aims at the location that is received when you take the average of the positions of all squad members. that means if a squad of two persons is divided so that one is to the upper left and one is to the lower left, then the defiler will aim straight left - often leaving neither of the two within any weapon fire cone.

also a small thing to [Vertigo]: i think that the 90° arc that was mentioned by sMoC was a tabletop reference.

[[Vertigo]]

Don't forget that the defiler has a natural tendency to be twitchy, I think that would add to the problem even more.

[komninosm]

Have you tried making the Battlecannon range 0 and see how that works out? For testing purposes. Will the AC be used then?

[Demon_Eyes]

It is still used, since the battlecannon and autocannon are used in conjunction between 20-35 range, increasing the firecone to 60-90 seems to help quite a bit as well, the defiler seems to lose target with the autocannon quite regularly, I noticed this while increasing the battlecannon minimum fire range to 35, the autocannon would fire at a standing target constantly at a target within 35 range, while a moving target would cause the defiler to track for a short period of time and them simply ignore the target until ordered to attack again. I am not sure why the fire cone was affecting the defiler in this manner but it appeared that once the target left the fire cone the defiler would freeze an would no longer track and with such a small fire cone on the default defiler, moving targets would leave the fire cone quite regularly.

[komninosm]

I had another idea.
How about changing the origin and the muzzle of the autocannon to match those of the battlecannon. That means that whatever the BC is targeting the AC can target too (if in range). From testing with the Wraithlord I found out that the origin and muzzle values do not affect game graphics much, they are for the underlying combat calculations engine.
Worth a shot (in the dark).

[Demon_Eyes]

It could possibly help, though I think the fire cone in general is a problem due to the slow tracking the defiler seems to have. I will try and test that sometime soon, possibly tonight if I am not in-game.

[[Vertigo]]

I did some more digging through the LUA files, apperantly the Auto Cannon has a target priority list while the Battle Cannon doesn't. I am wondering if that might contribute to the problem at hand. I added the list from the Auto Cannon to the Battle Cannon and the situation was much improved but there were still times when the AC wouldn't fire, but those times were rare.

[[Vertigo]]

I have done some moding to the weapon files for the defiler, and I think I have solved the Auto cannon problem or at least got it to a point where it is hardly an issue anymore. I have changed the weapon files on the Defiler in the following ways:



----------------------------------------
-- File: 'chaos_heavy_flamer_defiler'
-- Created by: AttributeEditor v2.0
-- Note: Do NOT edit by hand!
-- (c) 2001 Relic Entertainment Inc.

GameData = Inherit("chaos_heavy_flamer")

GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_01"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 45.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_02"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 40.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_03"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 35.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_04"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 30.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_05"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 25.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_06"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 10.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_09"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 30.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_11"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 10.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_12"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 25.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_13"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 20.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_14"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 20.000

GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_01"] = Reference("tp_infantry_low")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_02"] = Reference("tp_infantry_med")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_03"] = Reference("tp_infantry_high")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_04"] = Reference("tp_infantry_heavy_med")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_05"] = Reference("tp_infantry_heavy_high")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_06"] = Reference("tp_monster_med")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_07"] = Reference("tp_monster_high")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_08"] = Reference("tp_vehicle_low")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_09"] = Reference("tp_vehicle_med")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_10"] = Reference("tp_vehicle_high")

GameData["fire_cone_angle"] = 90.000
GameData["horizontal_traverse_speed"] = 45.000
GameData["max_traverse_down"] = -40.000
GameData["max_traverse_left"] = -1.000
GameData["max_traverse_right"] = 1.000
GameData["vertical_traverse_speed"] = 30.000




----------------------------------------
-- File: 'chaos_autocannon_twin_defiler'
-- Created by: AttributeEditor v2.0
-- Note: Do NOT edit by hand!
-- (c) 2001 Relic Entertainment Inc.

GameData = Inherit("chaos_autocannon_twin")

GameData["fire_cone_angle"] = 90.000
GameData["max_traverse_left"] = -1.000
GameData["max_traverse_right"] = 1.000




----------------------------------------
-- File: 'chaos_battlecannon'
-- Created by: AttributeEditor v2.0
-- Note: Do NOT edit by hand!
-- (c) 2001 Relic Entertainment Inc.

GameData = Inherit("chaos_shooting_weapons")

GameData["area_effect"]["area_effect_information"]["area_effect_events"]["dirtsand"] = "ground_impact/Impact_Chaos_Battlecannon_Dirt"
GameData["area_effect"]["area_effect_information"]["area_effect_events"]["grass"] = "ground_impact/Impact_Chaos_Battlecannon_Dirt"
GameData["area_effect"]["area_effect_information"]["area_effect_events"]["rock"] = "ground_impact/Impact_Chaos_Battlecannon_Dirt"
GameData["area_effect"]["area_effect_information"]["area_effect_events"]["water"] = "ground_impact/artillery_impact_water"
GameData["area_effect"]["area_effect_information"]["area_type_name"] = "area_circle"
GameData["area_effect"]["area_effect_information"]["filter_type"] = "all"
GameData["area_effect"]["area_effect_information"]["radius"] = 7.000
GameData["area_effect"]["throw_data"]["direction_angle_random"] = 15.000
GameData["area_effect"]["throw_data"]["force_max"] = 70.000
GameData["area_effect"]["throw_data"]["force_min"] = 45.000
GameData["area_effect"]["throw_data"]["up_angle_max"] = 60.000
GameData["area_effect"]["throw_data"]["up_angle_min"] = 20.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing"] = 2.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_01"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 23.333
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_02"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 23.333
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_03"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 23.333
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_04"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 23.333
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_05"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 23.333
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_06"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 66.667
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_07"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 66.667
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_08"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 66.667
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_09"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 23.333
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_10"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 66.667
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_11"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 16.667
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_12"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 100.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_13"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 100.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["armour_piercing_types"]["entry_14"]["armour_piercing_value"] = 100.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["max_damage"] = 165.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["min_damage"] = 135.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["min_damage_value"] = 25.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["armour_damage"]["morale_damage"] = 75.000
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_01"] = Reference("tp_infantry_low")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_02"] = Reference("tp_infantry_med")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_03"] = Reference("tp_infantry_high")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_04"] = Reference("tp_infantry_heavy_med")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_05"] = Reference("tp_infantry_heavy_high")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_06"] = Reference("tp_monster_med")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_07"] = Reference("tp_monster_high")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_08"] = Reference("tp_vehicle_low")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_09"] = Reference("tp_vehicle_med")
GameData["attack_priorities"]["priority_10"] = Reference("tp_vehicle_high")
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["hit_events"]["tp_flesh"] = "data:art/events/unit_impact_events/Unit_Thrown_Smoke_Spray.events"
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["hit_events"]["tp_heavy_metal_armour"] = ""
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["hit_events"]["tp_light_metal_armour"] = "data:art/events/unit_impact_events/Unit_Thrown_Smoke_Spray.events"
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["hit_events"]["tp_stone"] = ""
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["modifiers"]["modifier_01"]["max_lifetime"] = 5.000
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["modifiers"]["modifier_01"]["modifier"] = Reference("speed_maximum_modifier")
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["modifiers"]["modifier_01"]["modifier"]["exclusive"] = true
GameData["area_effect"]["weapon_damage"]["modifiers"]["modifier_01"]["modifier"]["value"] = 0.500
GameData["fired_projectile"] = "battlecannon_shell"
GameData["horizontal_traverse_speed"] = 45.000
GameData["max_range"] = 80.000
GameData["max_traverse_down"] = -40.000
GameData["max_traverse_left"] = -180.000
GameData["max_traverse_right"] = 180.000
GameData["min_range"] = 20.000
GameData["miss_events"]["dirtsand"] = "ground_impact/Impact_Chaos_Battlecannon_Dirt"
GameData["miss_events"]["grass"] = "ground_impact/Impact_Chaos_Battlecannon_Dirt"
GameData["miss_events"]["rock"] = "ground_impact/Impact_Chaos_Battlecannon_Dirt"
GameData["miss_events"]["water"] = "ground_impact/artillery_impact_water"
GameData["reload_time"] = 5.000
GameData["ui_effective_against"]["text_01"] = "$37954"
GameData["ui_effective_against"]["text_02"] = "$37955"
GameData["ui_effective_against"]["text_03"] = "$37957"
GameData["vertical_traverse_speed"] = 30.000



The lines in bold are the only things that I have changed. I tested this out in a skrimish against the AI and the Defilers used their Auto Cannons 99% of the time. There were a few times they didn't fire the AC but those were extremely rare. On the note of balancing the Defiler's AC I don't think that is it horribly bad, the Defiler has some pretty low hitpoints and it isn't like anti-armor doesn't have a chance against it; but I draw that conclusion from fighting the AI so I don't know how bad it could get.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Well done... I don't think you need to change the attack priorities though, I just upped the minimum range for the battlecannon a bit and it worked fine.

[[Vertigo]]

I don't have to change much about the aspects of the weapons, each weapon does the same damage, has the same range, and the same aspects as before. The only change to the design of the weapons is the 90 degree fire cone of the Auto Cannon, other than that the weapons are basically the same as they are now in the game. It depends on what route you want to take, doing my changes will leave the weapons basically the same without changing the dynamics between them.

[Demon_Eyes]

Any point at which the AC and BC overlap in fire range will cause a pause still while using mixed weapons, that is the reason I tried 35 minimum range on the BC so that the AC would fire all the time while within range and BC was used for outer range and attack ground.

[[Vertigo]]

The overlap is the best part about the Defiler's mixed weapons though. Being able to shoot artilery and the Auto Cannon makes a huge improvment in damage and disruption to the enemy. My changes leave that aspect in, while yours removes that aspect. I would rather keep that aspect in the Defiler.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Mine however stops the defiler throwing BC shells into the units it's providing AC fire support to. Each to their own I guess ;)

[Demon_Eyes]

There is always going to be a pause before and after the BC fires when the AC and BC ranges overlap, its part of how the BC works in game.

I prefer to have weapons function effectively and from what I have seen trying to use the AC/BC combo just plain isn't effective. Having the 35 minimum range allows the defiler to be used as very effective fire support for your own troops with the auto cannon and still soften up troops and static defenses from long range.

[[Vertigo]]

"There is always going to be a pause before and after the BC fires when the AC and BC ranges overlap, its part of how the BC works in game. "

Not with my changes.

[CyanCentaur]

Often my Defilers stop shooting altogether for no reason. If I move them around they start shooting again.

Would your fix correct this behavior?

[[Vertigo]]

Um, yeah, welcome to the discusion. That is exaclty what my changes fix, CyanCentaur.

[Demon_Eyes]

How exactly does it remove the pause while switching weapons? your not changing the BC special attack scripting. Either way, you still can't use the defiler for fire support with your troops without taking friendly fire with the minimum fire range at default.

[[Vertigo]]

I am just changing what the weapons target first, and the fire cone of the AC that is all. The "pause" of the AC before the BC fires is what everyone hated and that is what I was trying to fix. It got fixed from the attack priority list and the wide fire cone for the AC, since the BC was taking control of the AC due to the mismatch in targeting priorities and the fire arc of the AC couldn't engage the targets it wanted to.


"Either way, you still can't use the defiler for fire support with your troops without taking friendly fire with the minimum fire range at default."

That is one of the drawbacks of any artillery piece, something you have to live with.

[komninosm]

So Demon, did you get around to testing my suggestion about origin/muzzle coordinates?
I just got back from a trip and will test it if my workload permits.

[Demon_Eyes]

Komninosm
No never tested it, I haven't even had a chance to work on my mod for a while been busy trying to keep my CS:Source skills in check and I have other IRL hobbies that have been consuming my time.

[Vertigo],
I wasn't refering to the pause mid AC firing, I was refering to the pause before and after the BC fires; it takes around 5 seconds for the defiler to fire the BC. The pausing and lost targeting during AC shooting is easy enough to fix with any of our changes.

[[Vertigo]]

I have never seen a pause before or after the BC fires with my changes.

[komninosm]

Demon, I just tested the origin/muzzle stuff and it seemed to work better than normal, without any other changes at all, but I'm not totally sure. I did it while testing artillery accuracy stuff cause I thought that it wouldn't take much more time to combine the two tests.

[Demon_Eyes]

Komninosm,
Good to know, I will give it a shot as well.

[Vertigo],
Post your code, I don't see how that is working at all. As far as being an artillery piece it was not just an artillery piece, it should be able to choose AC or BC like normal. All that increasing the minimum range on the BC is doing is emulating the blindfire rule from TT.

[[Vertigo]]

Read over post #12 a little more carfully and you might see my changes, Deamon_Eyes.

[Demon_Eyes]

So your going troops low to high then monster and vehicles, I am still not seeing how that would affect the BC fire script.

[TheInedibleHulk]

What about fixing the autocannon penetration versus light infantry?

[[Vertigo]]

So your going troops low to high then monster and vehicles, I am still not seeing how that would affect the BC fire script.


Forgive me for not being specific enough, I remember covering my theory with N0z3k1ll3r in a chat session on AIM, but I forgot to include my theories in my posts here, and to cover my reasoning for my changes. I will cover those reason now.

Basically it came down to me realizing that there was a pause between the Battle Cannon and the Auto Cannon, like you have pointed out already, Demon_Eyes. Thinking about that relationship between the two made me think that there is an interaction between the both weapons. I decided to look through the relevant files for each weapon to see if anything look a little off.

One of the first things I noticed was that the Auto Cannon had a very narrow traverse over the Battle Cannon, which means that the BC will engage targets of its choosing instead of letting the Auto Cannon do its work. My first few posts cover this in detail, and I don't want to repeat myself too much.

When I changed the traverse or fire cone of the Auto Cannon that help alleviate the problem, but it was still persistent for some reason; which means that there was still something preventing the BT and the AC from "playing nice together". So I decided to look more deeply into the files and the files they inherited from. I first told N0z3k1ll3r that I suspected something was preventing the AC and BC from engaging the same targets together. He agree that there was something there, but he admited he hand not look too hard into the problem.

With more deep investigation in the files I found that the AC inherited a targeting priority list. This on its own wouldn't be much of a problem, except that the BC doesn't have that same list. That means, the BC can engage any target at will while the AC needs to go through the list of targets in order before it can engage anything on its own. Both weapon will act independently of each other, just look at how the Fireprizm works, and you will understand the relationship between the BC and the AC.

More explanation might be necessary, the BC and the AC were fighting each other for targets and the AC was losing out every time due to the traverse of the BC, and the target list the AC had. This means that the BC could engage every target in its range while the AC had to wait for certain targets to enter its fire cone. If their was mix targets it would have to target infantry over vehicles everytime, but it could not sometimes because the BC would engage targets the player selected. The BC could also scatter target around out of the fire arc and cone of the AC which would cause the AC to "jam".

So by giving all the weapons the same list each one would be force to engage the same targets, which is what everyone really wants. This means the BC and the AC target the same things and attack in concert with each other. By increasing the fire cone of the AC allows the BC to throw targets around but still allow the AC to engage them.

I hope this post answers your question, Demon_Eyes, if I left something out or you are still confused I will try to make my changes more understandable.



What about fixing the autocannon penetration versus light infantry?


Those changes have already been covered else where in the forums and in several mods.

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=46412

[komninosm]

I also thought about adding something to the muzzle/origin fix.
How about we make the BC have a small setup, like 1 second, or 0 seconds but accuracy reduction when moving = 1, like the prism cannon, so it doesn't shoot on the move. That should allow easier micro of the Defiler AC sometimes.

[Demon_Eyes]

Thanks [Vertigo] that makes a lot more sense now.

[[Vertigo]]

Well, since I have seemed to pin-point the problem I will add this and my fixes to the LUA thread above. Unless someone can find something wrong with my changes.

[aqwerty]

can i change the code and still paly online ?
:P

[TBS]

:Slap:

dont be silly :p

and your changes look good [Vert], however some investigation into how this affects balance might be useful...that autocannon is pretty damn powerful when it works properly.

[Demon_Eyes]

Doesn't really change balance much TBS, just keeps the defiler from losing targetting and from having a huge delay between weapon switching. You can still close to 16 range and use the AC constantly with [Vertigo]'s changes as you could before the changes and from 16-35 range will still be a mix AC/BC fire with 35+ range BC only.

[[Vertigo]]

can i change the code and still paly online ?


Not unless you find someone else with the same changes and play with or against them. Other wise you will get an error and the game will kick you out for having a modified version of the game.

[TBS]

Doesn't really change balance much TBS, just keeps the defiler from losing targetting and from having a huge delay between weapon switching.

which makes the defiler more powerful and so effects balance. As chaos is generally the weakest race these changes may not cause any overall harm...but equally they may lead to defilers on ranged stance raping everything they come into contact with. A few tests definately wouldnt hurt.

[[Vertigo]]

I am quiet sure that the Defiler wasn't designed around this problem being there, at least I hope it wasn't.

[TBS]

I too would hope it wasnt, however the problem has always been there so all other stats will have been edited around it. I am aware that chaos is generally the weakest race, but thats no reason to make this fix without doing any tests and hoping that it balances everything out nicely. A few simple tests would be enough to make sure that it doesnt make the defiler into a new fire prism...then it would take a few days to a week with the DoW community playing with it to be sure.

[[Vertigo]]

Well then,TBS, PM your AIM, ICQ, or MSN handle and we will work out a testing time and place.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Well I'm going to have a seperate going over of these with Mirage Knight at some point and compare them to the ones I've been using.

[TBS]

PM sent [Vert]

anyone who has any requests for tests post them in this thread. Ideally we want things that the defiler should be evenly matched with based on tech tree position and price, we run the test and see what happens - if its still fairly even then all is good if the defiler is a bit stronger than expected but isnt completely owning everything in site then that might be an acceptable buff to chaos and if the defiler annihilates everything we throw at it then the damage values will probably need tweaking.

So suggest: X defilers vs (combination of other units) in a straight fight or with micro (we'll probably do both anyway - the fight with micro is obviously going to be more relevant to actual balance but the straight fight is easier to reproduce exactly and will give good numbers for people who like that kind of thing: "it takes the defiler X seconds to kill a fire prism with the autocannon fix")

[Demon_Eyes]

As I said before, and to clarify my previous statement, within 16 range and outside of 35 range should not change at all, only 16-35 range should change slightly, so if something is changing drastically in the 16-35 range or anything is changing in the 16- or 35+ range then I would assume there was something changed that was not intended.

[TBS]

we did some tests last night and it looked good. The defiler autocannon fires reliably, at range vs infantry it is less effective than a prism (it doesnt knock units around nearly so much) but it does do very decent damage against armoured targets. Trukks and trakks fall reasonably fast but heavier vehicles take a reasonable length of time to die (1v1 a killa kan with rokkit in ranged stance loses to the defiler which has a fair chunk of health left).

The most interesting test was vs the Fire Prism - without holofield and with no dancing the two are now almost equal, however when we go to 2v2 the prisms win (with one dead and one on half health) due to the splash damage they cause.

The main potential imbalance we saw was vs structures (ork in particular) - the autocannon rips them to shreds pretty damn quickly.

Im sure that if/when this fix is released on the DoW community at large people will find imbalances with it and it may need some slight nerfing...however the basic tests show that its in the right ballpark, so to speak, and should certainly be counterable by the other 3 races.

[[Vertigo]]

Orks have a problem with their building being low hitpoints, most games can be ended quickly with siege weapons vs Orks. Orbital Bombardment, Laz preds, and Fireprizm are all ready a hugh threat to an Ork's base. So I doubt the Defiler needs to be tweaked in that regard, it sounds more like a problem on the Ork end.

[Chris]

Yeah the autocannon damage is rather OTT vs buildings, it tears down ork and eldar buildings like wet cardboard... even SM/CSM buildings go down surprisingly fast. Maybe it's just me but the autocannon dps vs buildings seems to be much more favourable than CC dps to buildings.

[[Vertigo]]

The CC DPS of the Defiler is misleading since it does not included the special attacks that it will do. No one has yet to included the power of the special attacks the Defiler does into its DPS, but I can tell you from experience that the melee attacks are hardly that great vs anything with armor.

[mlai]

@Vertigo:
With your latest suggested fixes to Defiler AC/BC (incr fire arc of AC), does it have the visual problem of Defiler looking one way but firing weapons at another (improbably angled) direction?

If yes, what adjusts would fix the visual discrepancy?

[TBS]

It did do that occasionally...but it wasnt too bad to look at.

[[Vertigo]]

Right now nothing can be done to make the firing animation look better. The whole Defiler is built around the Battle Cannon, which means that it gets priority when it fires. I would like to see the Auto Cannon get it own animations for aiming, like the way the sponson on the Predator are now. The way it is with my changes does not make it look too bad, but consider I wanted more functionality over form.

[TBS]

I guess that the best we could hope for is that the defiler model be completely redone for Winter Assault.

Of course its possible that the changes in 1.3 ("- Improved the targeting priority system for vehicles and units with multiple weapons.") will allow the autocannon to fire without introducing any graphical nastiness...we shall have to wait and see.

[[Vertigo]]

"Improved the targeting priority system for vehicles and units with multiple weapons"

I think they did what I did, just slap the targeting list into the files for all the weapons. They said improved, I don't know how much they improved the firing of the Auto Cannon with the Battle Cannon. We will have to wait and see, but hopefully Relic has got it down, if they didn't, well, that will explain the buffs to the "D" in 1.3.

[TBS]

Presumeably theyve seen this thread so its quite possible that they ripped off...I mean used your changes.

Other units with multiple weapons seem to fire ok - tanks, speeders, dreads etc. Even oblits seem to be able to fire the right weapon most of the time...it just isnt very impressive when they do. Like you said, its being built around the battlecannon that messed up the defiler.

The one thing thats worth mentioning is that it would be very hard for the defiler to become a new prism - it is far less manoeverable, cant jump if it gets into trouble and its artillery is extremely inaccurate (missile squads dont get sent flying with anywhere near the frequency needed to make it a problem). That said it could wind up overpowered...just not to the same extent as a prism.

PS: the "ripped off" comment was a joke - it would actually be great if [vert]'s fixes were used.

[[Vertigo]]

I hope my work here has at least helped them figure out what the problem is. I don't care if they use my changes to fix the problem, that is why I posted them in the first place.