A question on pistols

[Bloodthirstycow]

If you have two bolt/plasma ect. pistols do u get four shots?
Sorry if this in the rule book and I'm asking for a rule. If it is can someone tell me what page.

[cfoley]

Page 18:


infantry can fire with just one weapon each

You would get the bonus in close combat. However, a close combat weapon would be cheaper. You could take a bolt pistol and a plasma pistol to give you the choice between a safe bolt shot or a risky plasma one. I don't recommend doing this, though.

[Aquila]

Actually, I'm pretty sure 2 bolt pistols don't give you an extra attack anymore. But since a pistol and a close combat weapon are the same price... it doesn't really have any effect on the game.

[eleveninches]

Isnt a bolt pistol just considered as a CCW. If so, then 2 bolt pistols would count as one boltpistol and one CCW.

BTW, cypher has 2 pistols, and I remember him being able to shoot with both

[Piccolo]

Cypher is THE special case.

In all other cases you only get to shoot 1 and having the 2nd is the same as having a 2nd cc weapon when in CC. Not really worth it since normally anyone getting an extra CC attack you would make the primary CC weapon something worthwhile.

[MadJackMcJack]

What about Seraphim?

[cfoley]

Do they have a special rule? If so then it only applies to them.

[Dante]

Well...kinda...

They have hand flamers (which had a different effect in second edition).

They fire together as a single flamer...

So like i said...kinda.

[Bloodthirstycow]

Thanks, I'm sometoimes struck with blindness when it comes to finding things in the rulebook.

[Ten Tigers]

What bends me out of shape is how in both the ork codex and right on the cover of a box of boyz it shows an ork with two sluggaz.

Personally I thing the model should get to shoot twice with all the same pistol restrictions, but the second pistol does not count as an additional CCW.

Thoughts?

[Sir Guppy]

sounds like a crap idea to me. its just orks has left and right pistol arms so some people put them together but it still represents a pistol and close combat weapon.

[Ten Tigers]

No, not just people, Games Workshop did that.

Repeatedly.

And why would it be a "crap idea"? Thats a "crap response".

You get to shoot more but lose the additional attack and your save reduction from the lack of a choppa. At least this way you get something in return. Sounds better than just giving up your choppa for shits n' giggles.

[Aquila]

I think what he means is that it's overly complicated and won't really have any effect on the game. Just count the second pistol as a CCW, even if technically that's not how you're supposed to do it. I dunno, it's a pistol-shaped choppa?

[cfoley]

The boy with two sluggas counts as a boy with a slugga and a choppa.

Why? Well, can you show me where it says you can replace the choppa for a slugga?

[Bloodthirstycow]

I think if a character has two pistols it should have the option of firing one at its current bs skill, or both at -1 bs.

[MooFreaky]

If you had the ability to carry 2 pistols it would make pistols much more expensive and much more effective. They would be so much better than Bolters and such, as you would get double the shots.
I've got the Ork codex and the ork box set and there isn't an ork on there with 2 sluggas. There's 1 with a slugga and choppa and 2 with shootas. So unless your looking at an old one...

You can't have pistol count as a choppa. Choppas must be distinguished, as they are large and choppy weapons. They are axes and cleavers and such, this si their distinguishing features. They have special rules associated with them.
Orks also use standard close combat weapons (tankbustas, or bikers w/o the big shootas use them) which don't get the choppa special rules. So you can't really claim a slugga to work like a choppa.

[Sir Guppy]

well, if i remember correctly in the ork box set you get left and right hand weapons for both choppas and sluggas. (almost everyone in 40k is right handed
and usally dont have left hand weapons)

i think they did this so you can make the orks look less uniformed and to represent the fact that not everyone uses their gun in the right hand and vice versa, now some people including GW like to give some orks two choppas and two sluggas, which is alright makes the unit more intresting. but whatever they are armed with it counts a slugga and choppa. if you wanted to go all WYSIWYG you could say they had to have a slugga and a choppa, they dont even have to hold it, could just be attached to the leg. it all just adds some variety.

[cfoley]

That's right. Gluing them together like that is just for effect. You can't count them as having two choppas or two sluggas because that is a combination not allowed by the rules.

Technically, if you want to be really strict about WYSIWYG, gluing them together like this is an illegal combination making these models unusable in the game. I doubt anyone (even GW) would take it to these lengths, though.

[MooFreaky]

But it does cause a few problems with distinguishing some units. If Tankbustas, for example, move through a slugga squad they can suddenly have an extra ork or two added into their unit (perhaps not intentionally). As you cannot tell which are which. As they are both armed with Choppas, although the Tankbustas cannot use them.

So just to be clear I make sure i have a choppa on my model somewhere. My models using two guns have it attatched to his back or on his belt. As i find being accused of cheating makes a game alot less fun. I just try to make things as clear as possible. Especially in an ork army, where is extremely easy to mix up units, as the mass of boys swarm into the enemy lines. Lots of models all close together makes for confusion from time to time.

But agreed, i wouldn't stop an opponent using 2 sluggas and saying one was a choppa. That's pretty Nazi-ish...

[Sir Guppy]

well when i was doing an ork army i decided to distinguish between the sqauds by the colour of the warpaint on the arms.

[Aquila]

The only problem with that is that your army becomes extremely unflexible. You can't change your squad compositions at all if you do that.

[Sir Guppy]

then you can mix them all up, so they become un unified as orks prolly should be. at tournaments they strongly encourage sqaud markings so its eaiser to tell people apart

[Ten Tigers]

I just think it's funny that GW stresses WYSIWYG, modeling for all your representations etc, then on the cover of every box of boyz you see the model I'm talking about. He's not even in the background, he's the CENTER piece. Next time you are at your local hobby shop take a look at a box of boyz.

They stress "simplicity", but is adding double-digit numbers together all that hard for the general public? Oh no, what's 15+2 again? Damn them and their advanced trig problems...

Sure there is a decent bit of sarcasm in that but who here can HONESTLY say basic addition and subtraction bewilders them? They dumb their system down any more and they should just put "Playskool" on all their products. Anyone who has that much of a problem with basic math is probably also in danger of choking on the dice.

God forbid a hobby that actually encourages using your brain.

[Dante]

What?

You lost me tigers. :(

[Sir Guppy]

yeah im with dante here, wtf are you moaning about.

[Ten Tigers]

People were basicly writing it off to diversity, but the simple truth is an ork with two sluggas is either pointless, or illegal.

Yet at the same time, said model is showcased by them.

I offered a suggestion to make them viable without unbalancing anything too much and pretty much got the stock answer of "simplicity".

So I commented on GW's concepts of WYSIWYG, and the "simplicity" of their rules.


Oh no, one of the 16 orks in this unit has two bolters. My brain is melting, my brain is melting...

Oh shit, they are all shooting twice!!! Call Albert Einstien, what's 32+2?

I'm being somewhat facetious, but it seems like there are a lot of good ideas that people tend to snub for the sake of "simplicity".

Letting an ork model with two sluggas use them both seems like a good idea to me, otherwise you are just losing a valuable assault action for aesthetics. Damn, it's not like orks really aim at their targets anyway. They just shoot in the general direction and scream at the top of their lungs...

In short I guess I'm just making fun of the anal retentive.

[cfoley]

While one or two Orks in a squad using the rules you are suggesting would make no difference to the game, the ability to field a whole squad of them could seriously unbalance it. They would probably be a bit underpowered against Space Marines but they would completely maul armies with lower armour saves.

This rule would make no difference to the game if played as you intend it but could seriously ruin it if it gets exploited. In my book, that makes it pointless at best. The models can be used anyway, unless your opponent is extremely unreasonable. In that case I suggest getting a new opponent.

[Ten Tigers]

Actually, I didn't even consider a whole squad done up like that, just a couple of orks in a low head count mob to up the number of shots fired before a charge. You would need to buy 8 boxes of boys ($240) to get ONE full 30 ork mob like doubled up like that.

By the way, I'm studying statistics this semester. We should have some interesting conversations in the near future...


Ahhhh, probability mechanics....

[cfoley]

What are probability mechanics?

[Ten Tigers]

Actually the term "probability mechanics" comes from one of the best PC games of all time.

Drum roll....

Sid Meyer's Alpha Centauri

But in laymans terms it is the study of the nature of probability. Remember when we were talking about those shotgun rules? You were using "probability mechanics" to judge whether or not "my" shotgun was superior to the existing flamethrower.

It's all about predicting odds, and forecasting using math and logic. Weather forcasters, and business analists use probability mechanics on the regular.

[Evolution]

Im so sad that there are no more Alpha Centauri made... They should really make a Best-Buy or something, Ive had tons of fun with AC...

[MooFreaky]

The plain fact is that using 2 pistols in a battle is extremely hard to do. You would be so inaccurate as to make it completely useless (unless point blank range). There are a few people who could do this, but for the most part people are not ambidextrous.
While it is a fantasy world, GW still try to make it realistic as possible. And using 2 pistols just isn't.
Perhaps allowing characters do do so would be a nice touch, as they are the best of the best and could do such a thing.

Or even x amount of orks may carry 2 sluggas. etc

[cfoley]

OK. Thanks. Most of the stats I use on this forum, I learned in school so I either don't remember the terminology or have forgotten it. I have done different types of stats at uni which probably isn't that useful for dice odds.

EDIT: Or even better, leave the rules alone.

[Brother Wolf]

Peronally, I can't believe this is such an issue. First, almost any time in the game a model uses two of the same weapon, they become 'twin-linked', so it stands to reason that IF they wanted to allow twin pistol slingin' models in play, (not counting Cypher, he's special), then they would simple twin link them. Here's some house rules for you if you want to get saucy;

Veteran Skill/Special Ability
Gunslingers (3pts/model)- Models with the Gunslingers skill may wield two pistols. Both pistols MUST be the same type, (2xBolt Pistols, 2xPlasma Pistols, 2xSluggas, etc). The models must pay full price for each weapon if applicable. During the shooting phase, the model may fire both weapons, treating them as a single, twin-linked weapon. All other rules for Pistol apply, (movement, etc). During the assault phase, the model counts as having an additional close combat weapon per the normal rules regarding Pistols during an assault.

You could add it to the Chaos roster immediately and perhaps add it to others as well. Add a caveat to be unit specific, (EX: Up to 2 models in an Assault squad may replace their Bolt Pistols w/ Plasma Pistols for 10pts each. If using Gunslingers skill, any model may replace it's CCW with a Bolt Pistol for free, or may purchase a 2nd Plasma Pistol for 10pts).

Just a thought.

[Evolution]

sounds really cool.

[MooFreaky]

When twin linking it is generally cheaper than having 2 seperate weapons. The best example of this is Tau. The second weapon (ie to make it twin linked) is half price.

[eleveninches]

Thats because there is more chance of having at least one weapon hit when you have 2 indivindual weapons, rather than a twin-linked one

[Brother Wolf]

Well, I would say that is different w/ plasma pistols. The twin linking of the plasma pistol would allow you to reroll your gets hot roll, so paying an extra 10 pts to not only reroll to hit, but also avoid getting cooked is a fair price. Other than that, no other pistols cost more than a point, so you can't charge 1.5 pts for 2 pistols. In most cases, models using it as a squad veteran skill would replace their existing CCW, meaning that is it free and all they pay for is the skill.

This skill is balanced as is, trust me.

[Ten Tigers]

I don't see twin-linking off-setting the effects of a "gets hot" failure. The weapon overheated, firing it again isn't going to cool it off. Mastercrafted, yeah, I'd buy that for a dollar. But for some reason I get the feeling that "officialy" mastercrafted weapons still suffer the dreaded "gets hot" on a 1. You would still probably get your reroll, but that's only if you live to see it.

I only see dual pistols as an orky thing anyway. They don't really use "skill" so there would be no "skill penalty". Instead of one weapon firing in the general direction of the enemy, you now have two weapons firing in the general direction of the enemy. Orks don't "aim" like the rest of the races do.

[-_Phoenix_-]

Tiger - Twinlinking or mastercrafting a 'Gets Hot' weapon will allow you to avoid the negative effects.

[Brother Wolf]

The twin linking comes from the volume of fire coming from two pistols. In the case of gets hot, you can come up with whatever fluff you like, but I look to the rules themselves. Twin linking allows a weapon to reroll missed to hit. If a gets hot weapon rolls poorly, they get a reroll. Call it whatever you like, firing two weapons at a more even pace to avoid overheating, whatever...

[L.O.I.]

I'd just like to bring up that there is a non special charecter with twin pistols. Its the seraphim. in thier fluff it says that they are trained to use 2 pistols with accuracy, and their special rules say that they fire as TWIN-LINKED. The dual hand flamers fire as a normal flamer and the twin infernopistols (yes those crazy meltagun pistols) fire as twin linked.

I think this clears up the deal about dual pistols.

[fecalmatters]

business analists

lol, that's what they should be called!

[MooFreaky]

The rules state you can 'reroll one failed to hit roll per turn'. This does not mean that you negate the effects of a gets hot rule. If you roll a 1 the weapon overheats and you take a wound. Then if you survive you can take your re-roll.

This is logical as it follows the rules to the word. and it makes sense by the fluff.

[Aquila]

Very good point, MooFreaky. This would also apply to weapons such as a Master Crafted Combi-Plasma Weapon. I wonder if that was the intention of the rules people? Technically a master-crafted weapon wouldn't overheat as much, being master-crafted and all.

So if Azrael rapid fires, and rolls a 1 and a 2, he's still going to have to take armor saves even if he re-rolls. Interesting. I'm not going to call the rules boyz on this one, they're useless.

[Dante]

Yeah they are...

But really i think that your Mastercraft point is very valid. Otherwise they would have stated it as so. Such as, "Master crafted plasma weapons still inlfict wounds even if you reeroll the one" or something.

And there is no such thing as a twinlinked plasma weapon for a non-vehical (other than armand's nicely balenced house rules!), so they didn't need to address this issue. :mute:

[cfoley]

Hmmm.

The way I understand it (after re-reding both of the rules just now) is that if you roll a 1 to hit (Or 2 if you have 2 shots) with the plasma weapon you take a wound.

The Twin-linked rules say that you re-roll misses. This means that if you roll a 1 and miss, you reroll the dice. Say you roll a 5. You will probably hit and the 5 is not an overheat roll.

Still, I think it's open to debate.

[Dante]

Yeah but see in my last post i was saying how no non-vehical units have Twin-linked plasma pistols...

So the only way to reroll to hits is with mastercrafting. And with the fluff behind mastercrafting i think its safe to say that the reroll to hit to prevent overheatins is to represent its well-builtness... :nod:

[Doney]

Wait guys i may have a way to stop some of this arguement!

First of all the reason why you cant take duplicate pistols is in the top of an armoury page. Where it sais about the 100pts limit. Well it also sais that no duplicate weapons or wargear may be taken unless specifically stated in the wargear entry!

That should take care of a few things

Next is cyther, the only reason he can fire 2 pistols is because he has a special rule called "gunfighter" and that allows him to fire one each, or both twice if standing still.

The next thing is master crafted weapons debate. The reasons stated by GW on masted crafted weapons as to why they re roll is that they are designed with safe guards and better standard features that compensate for anything bad on the part of the user - or an overload in a plasma weapon.

And bolt pistols and other pistols can be used in CC and count as ordinary CCW's. Ask any GW staff.

So anything else just ask and i will ask them

[cfoley]

Read the paragraph in the armoury again. It describes how to take weaponry and wargear seperately so the ban on duplicate items applies only to wargear.

[Doney]

no it applies to weapons to cfoley, thats straight from redshirts at GW

[-_Phoenix_-]

Anything a redshirt says should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Heck, who i'm I kidding...a bucket of salt...

[cfoley]

By and large, they have a good knowledge of the rules but they didn't design the game. If I got a job at GW tomorrow, that wouldn't make anything I said about the rues gospel any more than it is at the moment. The best guide is to look at what the rules say. The second best guide is to discuss it on a forum where different ideas can be thrown around and discussed.

[Kronoch]

It's very hard to fire with two pistols and hit the target, even if you fire them at the same target. You need to train for a very long time. Anyway, applying the twin-linked rule to two pistols doesn't seem to be a bad idea. You can fire only one pistol but with an increased chance to hit something. And you can use it as an extra CCW. Didn't the seraphim have that rule? Seems reasonable for trained soldiers.

[Brother Wolf]

Anyway, applying the twin-linked rule to two pistols doesn't seem to be a bad idea. You can fire only one pistol but with an increased chance to hit something. And you can use it as an extra CCW.-Seraphim have the rule
-Ursakar Creed has the rule
-SM Bikes use a similar function for the bolters on the chassis

Any time you fire a pair of weapons, if counts as twin-linked. It's a game precedent. So, as I mentioned in my house rule, creating a veteran skill which would allow the use of paired pistols as twin-linked weapons, (any rule concerning having 2 of any weapon not withstanding. The rules state that you can, to the point that I believe the GW software allows you to take 2 weapons of the same type), seems like a very simple thing. 3pts for the skill is cake. 1pt or so for the basic pistol is not horrible as it accounts for the fact that the model ISN'T taking something nastier like a power weapon. Paying full price for a 2nd, more deadly pistol, (such as a plasma pistol), accounts for the fact that if you roll for gets hot, you get a re-roll before getting fried.

I've actually considered submitting this for Chapter Approved. It's actually pretty damn well balanced.

[Bloodthirstycow]

Well hell, i just wanted to do it because it looks so damn cool on models.