[SM] VS Chaos

[Radamanthus]

So, most of the discussion here seems to be centered on the orks, which is reasonable enough given the difficult situation that they are now in. However, as the community considers what changes to 1.3 might help balance the game, I'd like to point out that the SM vs. Chaos matchup seems to have become substantially tilted towards chaos, at least during 1v1 automatch conditions, even when the defiler does not come into play. Specifically, with weaker scouts, higher HP cultists, 10v8 member tactical squads, zero pop heretics, and cheaper PSM, the tier 1 matchup has become much more difficult for SM. Cultists are now fairly authentic meatshields, and they do a very nice job of shielding the CL and tieing up tac squads during the early battles, while SM has no unit except an expensive tac squad that can fulfill a similar role. Furthermore, because of zero pop heretics, chaos can now expect to field 50 early CSMs (5x10 tac squads), while marines with a standard build are still constrained to 32 SMs (4x8 tac squads). I don't think that this problem calls for a drastic change, but I do think that some slight adjustment will be needed for this matchup to be reasonable (maybe make servitors zero pop as well? Or cut the armory to 150 req?). Anyway, it'd be good to know what other people are thinking.

[Rapier]

The best thing I can think of is Flamers.. but if you can't get them yet, I guess focus firing a single squad (causing it to break), and take advantage of the fact your moral is much better than his.

Also rememebr if he has 5 squads of 10, and you have 4 squads of 8, you've paid 1600, and he's paid 2500 Req. So if he has massed, you should have an advantage somewhere :P unless he out resourced you...

[Radamanthus]

I'm not arguing thats it a hopeless matchup (especially with so many of the chaos players being new to the race), I'm just saying that its a difficult one. SM vs. Chaos has always been closer to a mirrormatch in tier one than any of the other matchups... and now its a more one-sided mirrormatch. In essence, in tier one, both sides have the exact same options, except that SM have scouts and 8 man squads, while Chaos has cultists, 10 man squads, and zero-pop builders. What this means is that chaos has a lot more that they can do before they hit the 10 pop cap. If you're interested in a matchup thats more equal in cost, consider a fairly reasonable early scenario of CL+cultist squad, cultist squad, and 3x10 CSMs, vs. FC and 4x8 SMs (SM player is spending 2 cap on servitors). I think its fairly clear that Chaos will murder SM in this matchup, and yet SM doesn't have really anything else they can do before heavy weapons come out (and if you don't see full tac squads early in your games, just replace 3x10 with 3x5 and 4x8 with 4x4).

[Weavern]

Tell me good sirs what the marine player spent the differeince in req upon to allow the chaos players to get 50 marines while you only have 32? I see a whole 900 req difference which buys allot of stuff. Could you perchance have tier2 and be cranking out vehicles :P Chaos may have #s but the marine player always have the econ advantage early on. The only difference is the first csm gets out sooner and now cultists can do more then cap or put GL on them. Nothing is stoping marines from sending 1 scout and killing chaos for using forced labour.

[Rapier]

Also.. if you have 3 SM squads and he has 3 CSM squads, you have 2 scouts and he has 2 cultists.

Consider using 4 scouts and 2 sm, vs 3 csm and 2 cultists. Now you have a squad advantage of one, you can tie up the 3 csm with scouts, focus the cultists, once they're dead (quick with focus fire) you can refocus to the CSM. Also I'm correct in thinking the FC beats the CL if he isn't attatched? (and if he is, you would have a squad advantage of 2)?

I don't play SM just an Idea =) Also with a 4 scout build you have an econ advantage from faster capping?

[hisnOObness]

Nothing is stoping marines from sending 1 scout and killing chaos for using forced labour

perfect use of scouts now, as demonstrated by Fear for instance.
A Member of our clan still uses a 4scoutbuild but uses the scouts as dispobsable units + capping advantage now.
Killing the builders/ decapping one point is a great part of his strat.

3scout/marines/two builders
/4scout/marines(sacrifice one scoutsquad early)/1builder

still work vs chaos marine rush....if the marine player doesnt run in like a fool

Eco advantage is nice, and fears assault strat still works.....

[Vertigo]

Yep, I've watched some of Fear's replays, and I think playing against that decapping mania he uses would be FRUSTRATING as hell. Basically, you'd better drop LPs the instant you take your opening points, or you may never get a LP up. Scouts excel at the "run in, decap, run out, never ever stop to fight" tactic Fear seems to like.

Then he upgrades from Scouts to ASMs, which is the same thing, but faster and can take down LP2s. Cool.

It's mostly powerful because it can throw you off your game, it's a psych-out strat. With a cool head, you can get around it, but you've got to be very patient. Chasing the Scouts is futile... take your lumps, take your time, and build up your LPs.

[savagedave]

I've tried taking out heretics with my scout squads too, but I always seem to run them into my opponents base at the point where they're first CSM squad is, and I lose the scouts without slotting the workers. Have to start getting the infiltrate I think.

[Vertigo]

Fear's approach is more to decap and run. If he sees a Heretic at 1-16 HP, he'll stop and gun it down, otherwise he leaves them alone.

You can run in, decap a point, and run out with only 1-2 losses, even with a small tac squad shooting at you. It's actually quite cost effective, when you consider you are taking away between +6 and +12 from the guy's income.

[Boomstar]

CSM have rather poor morale (once they break it takes awhile to regroup) use this to your advantage, try and get some snipers or flamers and exploit it.

[Radamanthus]

Vertigo: On the other hand, if he keeps a pool of about 100 req free, he'll just pop an LP on the point, which will increase his income once its done, and will probably still cost you 1-2 scouts (since they can't reinfiltrate immediately).

hisnOObness: Killing heretics can be a very good idea. However, if his commander is lurking in his base, you may well lose the scouts without getting the heretic. Even if the commander isn't around, you won't be able to reinfiltrate after nailing the heretic and you risk losing the scouts. Given that forced labor is essentially a one-shot ability, a Chaos player may be happy to trade depleted heretics for scouts. Of course, if you're trying to clear cap space, you might be happy with that trade too.

Rapier: 4 scout squads can give you a nice econ advantage, but thats fairly map dependant (unless you're able to decap with them). Basically, if there are only 4-6 points available for you to cap, the fourth scout won't pay for itself. By the time you can build a fourth scout (in a scout-scout-servitor-scout-scout order) you will have finished / be finishing two points, and your existing scouts will be working on three others. So, if there aren't more than 5 points that you want (excluding relics and crit points, which aren't very high priority from an income-based perspective), there really isn't an economic reason for that fourth scout.

[savagedave]

On something like VoK or railway I'd only go for 3 scouts, if your not going to harass, as they will still cap faster than you can build. MoM, outer reaches, DMC and fallen city, are IMO, 4 scout maps.

[Vertigo]

Vertigo: On the other hand, if he keeps a pool of about 100 req free, he'll just pop an LP on the point, which will increase his income once its done, and will probably still cost you 1-2 scouts (since they can't reinfiltrate immediately).

Exactly, and this is why the LP deleting "abuse" exists, specifically because of Scouts.
That's why I said it can be beat, if you keep a cool head and stay patient. With 100 RP in the bank, SM can NEVER decap any of your points. But how many people keep money in reserve just in case? And, typically between the time most players see the Scouts and the time the first point is decapped, you won't have time to get to 100.

Like the Fool's Gambit, it's easy to lose to the first time you see it.

[Chris]

Tell me good sirs what the marine player spent the differeince in req upon to allow the chaos players to get 50 marines while you only have 32? I see a whole 900 req difference which buys allot of stuff

It's easy to say this if both players just sat in their base and didn't fight until both players had reached critical mass. However when you take into consideration wars of attrition it becomes much harder to see where the SM could spend that 900req except in reinforcing the same SM squads over and over again.

[frenchjesus]

SM vs CSM mu seems to be pretty balanced at tiers1 now imo. Time will tell.

[Dhaeman]

What can be done about it though? I do agree that CSM has more advantages than SM early game. I think the best solution lies in modifying cultists which could serve to be weaker in some way. Perhaps decrease movement speed slightly?

[Chris]

SM vs CSM mu seems to be pretty balanced at tiers1 now imo. Time will tell.

Heavily disagree. I think it was much closer in 1.2. In 1.2 it all came down to who could micro their disruption units and hero better. CSM has pure mass and the more powerful hero on their side, by the SM player had extra scout squads for focus firing and taping/blocking disruption.

[Stefan]

ya CSM vs SM is definetly unbalenced in CSMs favour now. Scouts are far worse and with CSMs massing advantage, SM really have to use all the tricks they have left.

I think the trick with the scout decap rushing that fear uses, is keeping the squad alive. so even if u take some losses u can still use it for capping or for a quick decap later in the game without needing to build another squad, reinforcing isent so much of an issue with scouts now. Fear looses scouts but it buys him time which makes his ASM harassing (which he almost always does) more effective, eventually it will repay the cost in scouts lost. Even then good players are careful with their scouts so they dont lose many of em.

[Scarlet_Pimp]

My opinion at the moment is that marines have either been nerfed too much, assualt marines find it hard to destroy buildings now, and scouts cant rely on them to help with fighting now besides tying up units. Seems to me like other races all seem to have stronger economies even when I try a rush I seem to run into superior numbers. Plus I think cultists seem to be very effective now scouts cant kill em any way and you really need heavy bolters.

[apettican]

Welcome to 1.3, the age of balance.

CSMs = Marginally better than SMs
CSMs = Available earlier
CSMs = Bigger squad size
CSMs = More squads
CSMs = Easier to mass due to cheapers cultists and heretics
CL > FC
Heretics > Servitor

See, balance.

To quote a clan mate. "SM strategy now is to bend over and take it"

[eltroubabadour]

The problem now with chaos vs SM is that with heretic at 0 cap, chaos can field more CSM squad and if SM want to do the same they got to pay 1st for more squad cap (150 req) and then pay for a new squad (200 req) so the new squad for SM cost 350 req whereas chaos can buy CSM for 200 req
I think 1.2 chaos vs SM was more balanced, i dont know how to fix it, i dont think cultist should be nerfed, i suggest nerfing CSM maybe squad with lesser marines or reinforcing slower or buffing SM squad (i am kidding)

[n0z3k1ll3r]

The problem now with chaos vs SM is that with heretic at 0 cap, chaos can field more CSM squad and if SM want to do the same they got to pay 1st for more squad cap (150 req) and then pay for a new squad (200 req) so the new squad for SM cost 350 req whereas chaos can buy CSM for 200 reqOr just get two scout squads instead of 4.

[eltroubabadour]

Sorry it was obvious for me, i was considering something such as :
2 scout squads + 4 SM + 2 builders
2 cultists + xxxx CSM + xxxx heretics

[apettican]

noz, number of scout squads is irrelevant. that extra csm squad just owns whatever you try. And beleive me, I been trying alot of stuff.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

2 cultists + 3 CSM + x heretics
2 scouts + 3 SM + 2 servitors

I totally fail to see a massive problem.

The problem lies with the cultists, not the CSM. The cultists delay things enough for the chaos player to actually build and reinforce those squads. Otherwise you'd have the advantage.

[apettican]

I have to disagree. The problem lies in the CSM. FL means that no matter what I do, those squads come out sooner than mine, are marginally better than mine, and can be made to larger squads than mine. I also think the cost of scout/serv compared to cult/heretic plays a big roll in the problem.

It also isnt helped by the fact that CL>FC in an isolated encounter.

In 1.2, most were agreed that SM vs CSM was very closely balanced. In 1.3, the extra csm squad, and new ubercults make it totally one sided.

[eltroubabadour]

I agree the match up is roughly balanced since the begining to the critical squad composition you wrote, the problem is not 2 cultists + 3 CSM vs 2 scouts + 3 SM, the problem is what happen just after...
because when the SM player want to build another squad he will got to pay 350 req and wait for the "more cap" research to be done whereas chaos player can add a 4th CSM squad for 200 req without paying and waiting for any kind fu!#ing research to be ready because now heretics take 0 pop cap

[n0z3k1ll3r]

I have to disagree. The problem lies in the CSM. FL means that no matter what I do, those squads come out sooner than mine, are marginally better than mine, and can be made to larger squads than mine. I also think the cost of scout/serv compared to cult/heretic plays a big roll in the problem.

It also isnt helped by the fact that CL>FC in an isolated encounter.

In 1.2, most were agreed that SM vs CSM was very closely balanced. In 1.3, the extra csm squad, and new ubercults make it totally one sided.Where precisely are you getting "marginally better than mine" from? CSM have always been inferior to SM, simply because they take 3x as long to rally. The larger squad cap should basically never come into play, a smart chaos player won't reinforce until he has all 3 squads out, and then he's just as restricted by resources as you. So you have 3 squads of SM to his 3 squads of slightly inferior CSM, and 2 squads of scouts to his two of cultists. That says even fight to me. The problem of course is that the cultists delay things long enough for the squad cap to come into play.

[Chris]

Actually a smart chaos player always reinforces his first squad to 6, as this makes a potent raiding unit and still allows for a few LPs to be put up.

[Radamanthus]

A few points about the "even" two scouts, FC, 3 SM vs. two cultists, CL, 3 CSM matchup. First off, with the CL attached to the cultist squad, the CL will CRUSH the FC, even if the FC is attached to a scout squad. This battle is a very, very difficult one for the SM player to keep his FC alive in, unless he attaches a tac squad to the FC, but, in that case, he's going to be very badly outshot. More generally, cultists will do a much, much better job in this battle of tying up tac squads than scout squads will, due to their buffed HP and large squad size. Simply put, those scout squads, due to their small size, will disappear a lot faster to focus fire than the cultist squads will.

[apettican]

I got marginally better, because at the stage of the game where it matters, CSM have a marginal andvantage in CC, and without flamers, or the numbers to make focus fire an issue, the CSM are extreemly unlikely to break in the first place.

And you have failed to take into account, that there is only so far you can run. If the chaos player bumps his first 2 squads up to 6/7 members at the expense of an LP, then you will be forced into battle against a superior force, and his reinforcements will show first despite being in your half of the map.

noz, I dont know what level you play at, but my last 1.2 ladder game was against a 1400+ csm masser. I micro'd like crazy to try and keep everything tied up while having 1 spare scout squad to kill cultists. Once cultists were gone, it was still close, but I just came out on top. I had 6-8(cant remember exactly) SMs left when he decided to give in. So this was a 1400 player, playing another 1400 player, we had a close game, and it was all good.

Since 1.3, I have not even come close to beating a CSM masser. 1 game, I came out of the inital battle, with nothing left, and he had 27 CSMs. Hell, I cant even get 27 SMs in 3 squads, and I sure as hell cant get 4 squads that early in the game.

In theory, the match-up looks not to bad(my prediction when I saw patch notes was Chaos having a marginal upperhand). Having now played several 1v1/2v2s vs Chaos, I think its safe to say they have a BIG advantage.

[Demon_Eyes]

Could have sworn I already posted in here, but here is an overview of tier1 CM/SM:

Chaos Marines and Space Marines:
Cost the same
Chaos Marines melee advantage at reaseach from armory
Space Marines rally at 50, Chaos rally at 150
Chaos Marines reinforce slower
Space Marines squad size 8, Chaos Marines squad size 10
Chaos Marines available earlier through forced labor

Heretics: repair 15 move 16 pop cost 0 (forced labor triples repair rate, about 10 seconds use)
cultists: move 16 popcost 2

Servitors: repair 30 move 20 popcost 1
scouts: move 20 popcost 1 (not slowed by cover)

Both SM and CM temples cost the same

To echo N0z3k1ll3r, can't really find a flaw here. It is a tradeoff in almost every case. CSM can melee to try and beat out SM in the reinforcement advantage at the same time SM can use their squad numbers to compensate. SM have better morale however CSM can have a larger number of troops, SM have more mobility in their builders and initial troops while CSM can build faster. FC will loose in a strait duel to CL however FC also has more HP at a lower cost so CL is more vulnerable to combined attacks.

[komninosm]

One has to remember that the morale advantage of SM is not always as useful as you imagine. For exampe if a full CSM squad fights a full SM squad it would be disaster for the CSM to break, but it usually won't break first due to numbers being in its favour. And after breaking the SM squad just can't keep up the morale damage to do those precious last points of damage to the CSM squad that is near breaking.
In other cases though it could mean the world. Like if there's a scout squad near by to do the necessary killing blow to morale and then run away from the chasing cults, then the SM and CSM will be mostly unable to damage each other till they rally and the SM will rally first and win, probably.

I think the 0 pop of Heretic was not necessary given the squad size of CSM and Cultist buff for pop. At the very least I think CSM squads need to be put down to 8 members. Cultists are a surprisingly good squad , the best hitpoint for cost ratio and pretty good melee and ranged for cost. And charge move bonuses. I think this is another case of an over-correction by RELIC, just like the Defiler.

[eltroubabadour]

if you compare each unit with its counter part they are roughly balanced...
The main problem is that now chaos can field more squads because heretic takes 0 cap.
Chaos gets more CSM squads comparing with SM who must pay (and wait) for researching "more squad cap" moreover there are more marines in CSM squads, i know CSM break faster but did you ever try to break one CSM squad with your SM when another CSM (or cultist) is firing at you or CCing you

[apettican]

I dont disagree that it doesnt look to bad on paper. GO play a game or 2. Then it looks REALLY bad.

[killerqueen]

totally agre.. seems like this thing is balanced but if you play a few games, you'll see that the scout nerf is really too bad fore SM players and the cultists now are real threat, especially because of the nerf...
For the moment I really don't see how to beat a good chaos player that does the now well known csm rush...but hope is still in me and I am looking forward to seeing a new BO come up and pawn Chaos!!!
For the Emperor!!!

[eltroubabadour]

dance and fast tech to ASM and prey for a noobish Chaos player...
Well i haven't find something that works yet but i am far from being a pro so i guess i will have to learn chaos

[WDI]

Making servis 0 pop and adjusting scouts price to what they are really worth could solve some problems.

You mustnt forget also slippery slope: those "small" advantages you talk about make you lose the game. I am 1400 as well, and i never never beat a somewhat clever CSM overwatcher. Those 2 csm per squad and 1 squad more really kills space marines.

Some of you say that csms have low morale: first if you rush tech to armory, you will die, plain and simple: you cant afford 1 gen + 1 armory + the price of your costy sniper rifles/flamer. Plus it is actually very easy to micro out of flamers (snipers are another story but they do cost a lot more than flamers). A chaos player that let one of his squad getting demoralized by flamers without doing anything is a not-so-good player.

Another option that isnt mentioned is: the CL can retreat if things go wrong in a hero fight, FC just *cant*. Slow poison will kill him.

Even if you can survive to tier 2, sorcerer spam really hurt marines. they dont really need machine pit to win at tier 2, it is just an extra.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

I dont disagree that it doesnt look to bad on paper. GO play a game or 2. Then it looks REALLY bad.Yes, because of the cultists. As I keep saying.

[komninosm]

I just saw the 1.3 DPS list and the cultists seem to have gotten increases (along with 125 hitpoints from 95 and cost 20 from 15) to their melee and ranged attack against the usual types of infantry. They are also the only starting unit that is melee oriented and unlike sluggas they have decent ranged for cost (but shorter range, 20 vs 25). They are kind of like shootas who I consider much better than sluggas anyway. Their crowding problems were also lessened with the scaling up and this means more concentrated firepower that you can bring to bear. And I think they changed reinforcement speed but the patch notes are unclear.
This alone isn't too terrible, but they also made Heretics pop 0. The only thing that kept cultists in check in 1.2 was their suckiness for pop (and slow reinforcement). I tried a few mass cultists rushes in 1.2 (even researching the squad cap and not getting a Temple) and I met with marginal success (newbies), but now they are much better. You can even afford to get 3 cultists and 2 CSM. You pop advantage is huge. Whatever pop disadvantage the cultists still retain (hey a full squad costs only 400, still pretty cheap for pop 2) the Heretic and 10 memeber CSM erase and remember that cultists have superb cost efficiency for damage and hitpoints. Even CSM have 600 hitpoints/req and cultists have more at 625 I think. Other units are around the 520s.
People didn't want to build more than 2 cultists because they were a drag on various stuff later on. Now Chaos has the cheapest capping unit that he can keep around and has 10 pop while others have 8 because of builders. He can get 3 or even 4 cultists out and get an eco advantage too, as well as all the other advantages it retains.

I can't even imagine how cultists would be with range 25. I think Heretic cost 0 pop HAS TO GO!

[Demon_Eyes]

"WDI"
Those 2 csm per squad and 1 squad more really kills space marines.

I can't agree with this, those 2 CSM per squad are 100req more that the CSM player must have, while I don't see how CSM must have 1 more squad, SM scouts are 1 cap, Cultists are 2 cap by virtue of this SM can always have more squads just depends on how you build. Though I believe scouts use has been more defined now.


"Komninosm"
I can't even imagine how cultists would be with range 25. I think Heretic cost 0 pop HAS TO GO!

I actually don't think heretics pop cap is a problem, considering how builders work with Chaos, if cultists were at 1.2 level but with normal reinforcement times I think it would be perfectly fine for teir1.

[Vertigo]

I also don't think the Heretics are a problem at all, although Cultists may be.

Kom, the 1.3 changelog was trying to say that Cultists have different reinforcement times in and out of combat. Out of combat they reinforce very fast, in-combat they reinforce at 12 secs, very slow.

This actually is pretty cool, because it means that Cultists can mass up fast before combat, tank for a while, but then die. Perfect for what they are supposed to be.

Also, the 2 cap reduction isn't THAT big a econ buff. Chaos can't go mad and cap the entire map or anything. Eldar still have the cheap econ, SM have Scouts, Orks are just totally different. Really, all the cap reduction does is bring Chaos' early game up to parity with everyone else.

If anything is OP with Chaos in tier1, I'd say Cultists, not Heretics.

[apettican]

I think Heretic cost 0 pop HAS TO GO!

Wow. Kom, I have been using these forums a long time, and I think this is the first thing I actually agree with you on :thumb:

I dont think its actually the whole truth. The 0 pop was designed imo to deal with the fact cultists were useless. They are now not useless, and the combination of the 2 makes the huge imbalance.

I dont think getting the balance back again is a problem. Simply revert the heretics back to 1 cap, and hey presto, we have balance back. Chaos have always been able to do a pretty scary csm mass. Its the extra squad that has tipped things over the edge. The cultist buff should equalise any slight(I dont personally think there was one) advantage SM had in this matchup in 1.2

I would also like to see the scout servitor costs brought into line with other stuff too, because frankly, they suck for cost.

[Stefan]

CSM do NOT reinforce slower then SM unless that has changed in this version.

[Vertigo]

I would also like to see the scout servitor costs brought into line with other stuff too, because frankly, they suck for cost.

Well, which one is it, the Scout or the Servitor? The Servitor is fine for cost, given it's well-rounded health and speed.

I'd rather nerf the Cultists and keep the 0 pop. It's a little more variety, something different from SM.

[[Vertigo]]

According to my data (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=63320) Cultist still are not that great. The only thing keeping them good would be the 125 hitpoints they have now. I don't think Cultist are that bad, Scouts are far more the stronger unit.

[Chris]

What are your thoughts on the charge bonus? I'd like to see how cultists perform without the charge modifer until furious charge for example.

[Markoso]

I think you may be right on That Chris. Without the charge bonus, in theory a half-way decent Microer could get their squad the hell out of there before being tied up, which is currently a highly successful tier 1 tactic for Chaos, tie em up, shoot em, and tie the hero up with the CL (Or kill >.>). Personally, there aren't too many feasible imbalances Chaos has at Tier 1 I can think of, as the 0 pop serves more functions then allowing an extra CSM squad, it allows Chaos variety, in that they can go PSM without crippling themselves due to pop issues, and it'd be bad to stomp out variety.

[Demon_Eyes]

"Stefan"
CSM do NOT reinforce slower then SM unless that has changed in this version.

Whoops, yea tac marines are the same, forgot it was only Raptors/ASM that had different reinforcment time.

[komninosm]

I would have liked the idea of keeping 0 pop for Heretics nad renerfing cults if it wasn't for the fact that chaos already has the excellent for pop CSM, 10 members and option for heavy weapons. I think they are too good for pop. And cultists are too bad, they're worse than guardians for pop, much worse. So I think the cult buff was in good taste, but the Her pop wasn't.

BTW, in cultist news, did they buff the FS storm to still kill them in one go with 125 hitpoints and all?

PS [Vertigo], I can't post in your thread there (weird) but you got some of the cult nade numbers wrong. Have a look there. And scouts are not the stronger unit for cost, only for pop.