Slightest nerfs 1.31

[Inst]

SM:

-Scout plasma guns deal 50% extra damage with second level optics, not 20% extra damage.
--Reason, no real point to build heavy bolters in SMvSM, morale damage is good, but light infantry never really affects the battle. Scout snipers are too long ranged to be affected by heavy bolters.

Chaos:

-Defiler HP lowered to 2320. Defiler build time increased to 58 seconds. Defiler autocannon reverted to 1.2 values, except for infantry_high and infantry_med, which are now respectively, 110 DPS and 130 DPS, and building values, in the low/med/high formula: 75/50/100.
-- Self explanatory, defilers have a general aura of overpoweredness. If we do go into statistics, they are better against most infantry than the Fire Prism.
-Obliterator cost increased by 50%. Obliterator build time increased by 50%, but reinforcement time is static. Obliterator HP increased by 50%. Obliterator damage increased by 50%, with certain exceptions. Plasma cannon damage values increased to about 125% of assault cannon damage values against heavy_med and heavy_high. Lascannon damage values against structures are increased to about 125% of assault cannon damage values against structures.
-- Obliterators are well known for being both heavily bugged, and extremely weak for cap. This incfreases their performance per cap by 50%.
-Bloodthirster now gains 13% more hp than base, and 13% more damage than base, for the first 3 times you resurrect him. He will max out at 2.25 times his base power for 1.5 the base cost.
-- Arguable that bloodthirster is a bit weak. Not a severe buff, he is only being scaled.

Eldar:
-Warp Spider weapon range decreased to 20.
--Warp Spider damage is now weaker against ork, and meets fluff that Deathspinners are like flamethrowers in range. Easier for stormboyz to entangle.
-Vyper missile launcher now deals 33% more damage against vehicle targets.
-- Easily arguable that vyper needed a buff, since the missiles were nerfed against infantry and commanders.
-Wraithlord move speed increased to 20.
-- Easily arguable that wraithlords needed a move speed increase.
-D-Cannon friendly fire structure damage removed.
-- Well, farewell the age of D-cannons blowing up their own base...

Ork:
-Slugga boyz can now field 4 heavy weapons.
-- Since sluggas are obsolete by the time stormboy nobz are available... why not make them 4 heavy weapons?
-Stormboy Nobz cost increased to 75 req, 25 pow.
-- Fixes an idiosyncrasy. Not too major...
-Tankbusta Bombs can now target monster_high, dealing 75 damage. Tankbusta morale increased by 100 points.
-- Fixes an idiosyncrasy. Can be said to be major, since a mass of tankbusta bombs can chain stun an avatar or bloodthirster, rendering it worthless.
-Wartrakk Rokkit damage increased by 50% against vehicle targets.
-- Ork has always had extremely weak anti vehicle capability, nerfing rokkits is just not fair. Giving them better background anti vehicle fire would be nice...
-Killa Kan is now affected by Big Shoota and Rokkits upgrades.
-- Somewhat good, since killa kan's speed means it will end up having to depend on its ranged fire.
-Looted Leman Russ now builds in 62 seconds, instead of 78.
-- The vehicle is a meatshield for orks, to be used as compensation for their fragility and lack of ranged firepower. The point is, you run the LLR in, have it knock down and break a few infantry squads, and since it is a good meatshield, your units will survive to contacting the enemy force. It builds far too slowly, by lowering the build time, you will encourage more people to use it.

[graldensblud]

Can't argue with the eldar stuff. Sounds good. Maybe a BL nerf might prove necessary to balance with other races. [And (i'll keep saying it til it happens) BL Grav boost speed needs to tie in with FoFing troops for when they are attached together.]

[komninosm]

I agree with most stuff, but I do find the word 'slightest' a bit odd. It's a word to be used for the ranger buff in 1.2 and similar stuff, not this.

I'd also like to see shootas available from the orky fort just like sluggas. Like you said they fight with stormboyz over the boyz hut too much :-p

I also don't think I agree with WS range nerf. If anything I'd like to see their range increased to 30 (like plasma) and their damage lowered by 25% or something. Not 24 -> 20. 20 is too low, almost only unit with 20 is cultists (also questionable).

I don't get the scout plasma deal. I think it's fine as is. No reason for scouts with plasma to beat heavy bolters. Did you miss the part were scouts are not supposed to be a main fighting unit? If anything I like the sniper rifles. At best make the sniper rifles do more than 50% damage to heavy inf, like 75% perhaps.

I agree with the rest I think...

[mlai]

KOM: I also don't think I agree with WS range nerf. If anything I'd like to see their range increased to 30 (like plasma)

You're mad. Sit down.

and their damage lowered by 25% or something.

I don't care. Sit down.

[Sps]

mlai you obviously havent learned anything from 1,3 disaster:

decrease range - less shooting time tied up easily
decrease damage - 25% will kill freaking ONE ork.

So I guess its ok for ork to whine about the same nerf concept with obvious results to their trakks/rokkits but now they want spiders to be pushed to the opposite side as well?

Some balance and some lack of bias.

[NaHeMoTh]

All WS need is penetration against infantry_high (most Orks) decreased 20-25%. That's a freakin huge nerf! I'm sure you don't want to reverse the Eldar/Ork matchup, only make it balanced right?

[Edit:] A slight nerf to BL damage should be considered on the other hand, since you made Vypers more AV effective, and Wraithlords, who can also carry brightlances, faster.
Also Hellfires could use a slight damage buff, especially for their T3 lascannon.

[h2o]

warp spiders range should be left as it is if not slightly more as mentioned 30 like plasma but there damage down slightly 15% say !

you dont want everything in this game to be fluff wise inst other wise wraithlord should own all !

[Inst]

you're wrong H20, you can easily make wraithlord fluff correct, without breaking the game.

Scale cost by 2, cap by 2, HP by 2, increase melee accuracy to 100% and increase melee damage by 62.5%. Increase range damage by 150%, increase ranged morale damage by 150%, increase melee morale damage to 300, same as killa kan.

There, now wraithlord is a 4 cap monster with 4500 HP that can easily beat a dreadnought in combat. The problem is, he's so expensive.

SPS: so what do you suggest we do about warp spiders?

What do you think WS are supposed to do in Eldar v Eldar and Eldar v Ork, anyways? What's their intended role?

I've always thought of WS in combat as a sort of antisupport weapon unit, so that it kills snipers, cultist grenadiers.

Against ork, it can eliminate the threat from big shootas, but what does it do against eldar? ?:(.

You can't balance WS until you know what it's supposed to do... \=

One idea I have, is to make WS 4 cap. 4 cap WS will be more balanced, since they'd be "Eldar Terminators", which is what their statline resembles in this game.

[iamthedave]

What about making them an early game relic unit? That would mean the Orks are encouraged to push aggressively in order to keep the Eldar from consolidating the relic. Thoughts?

[NaHeMoTh]

Now that would by highly map-dependant. Some maps have relics directly in the players base. About WS, I Thought the only problem with them was their huge damage against Orks, who have no heavy infantry early, and also have no counter to heavy infantry. What's wrong in limiting their damage in that case, as I said earlier? That would also balance them against DR in mirror matches, as i believe DR are also infantry_high

[komninosm]

mlai:
You sit down. It's not healthy to type while standing.
Other than that it's obvious to anyone but a biased fanboy that WS AI (and many other units' AI) is kind of bugged. They'll often close too much and not fire from max range as they should. This problem is further amplified by units that are hard counters (as opposed to generalists or soft counters) because you have to actively target them. If you click stop you run a high risk of them targeting the wrong thing.
The damage reduction is quite huge (25%). They are less powerful than heavy bolters to begin with (not to mention heavy bolters are soft counters, killing heavy inf too), this nerf makes them even more so. The only advantage of WS is the teleport. Need I remind you the ranges? Even the melee of the WS is much weaker. 1 SB per WS is all you'll ever need. That or NL for your squads.

Because of this WS should have their range increased to some more proper value, or fix their AI. I want them shooting at max range and to choose targets intelligently. The damage reduction is to keep them balanced. A freaking cultist squad can charge them right now and survive because the distance is so small (depending on numbers, for cost ofcourse), forcing them to waste a jump.

Inst:
I like scaling stuff and the Wraith could use it, but some people just can't see that the cost/pop-effectiveness remains the same. All they see is 1 unit that is very powerful and start to whine. So be cautious, though I'm all for it. With speed 20 I think the WL is fine.

About WS you should simply do what I said (before somebody flames me, people say 25% decrease for light infantry_high I said for all types) and also remove 1 or 2 members from the squad to make it worse for pop (it's one of the reasons they can almost handle SM squads too). I suggest adding that member to the hurting Dark Reapers. I also think WS melee should be equal to DR, if not better. It still sucks for cost mind you.
I don't like the Relic idea. It takes too long and is a big handicap so early in the game. And is very map specific. The increased stone cost already fixed most of the issue.

[NaHeMoTh]

Actually 1 unit that is 2 times as powerful and expensive in cost/cap is kinda more efficient, bc it takes longer to kill it, which means it can deal damage longer. The advantage of 2 weaker units is that you can attack 2 different targets with them, and spread them on the map more, but in direct combat this doesen't balance it out. My point being, such a fluffy WL should be a bit weaker than 2 current Wraithlords.

[Inst]

do stats, komninosm.

315*29 = 300*32?

They're more or less equal, and the warp spider is 25% cheaper than heavy bolter, so WS is better.

the reason this is called slightest nerf by the way, is that it's supposed to be so slight that no one will take issue with them.

I know you're holding an eldar bias, but it's not that hard to see that eldar v eldar easily turns into WS abuse until plats are online.

[komninosm]

I'd like to add, since you asked, that I played a mirror match and I beat an opponent that used 1.2 WS and the Prisms and had map control (kind of) with melee warlocks, then shuriken plats (and boosting economy and LP turrets to hide) and then BL plats. WS do not rule the Eldar mirror match as much as people say.

BTW, WS already do less damage to infantry_high than infantry_med. DR are infantry_high, but they suck way too much to beat WS (maybe in melee LOL). If you decrease the WS damage to orks you need to scale down the overpowered and spammable NL. Make the basic orks better if you must but scale that monster to 1/2.

[mlai]

@ Sps:
I have no ****ing idea who you're talking to. Doesn't seem to be me, doesn't seem to be Kom either.
I'm getting tired of ppl flaming me for stuff I never said.

@ Kom:

I'd rather WS keep their damage potential than have them increase weapons range.
You increase WS range, I guarantee you Orks will suffer.
Not to mention you're just modifying them into vanilla marines. You do that a lot, with everything.

[komninosm]

Hardly vanilla marines. Perhaps you have a problem with conceptualising my proposed changes. Anyway the damage a ranged unit can do on an inbound melee unit is too small in this game (for cost). On the other hand melee suffers from dancing and other stuff.
BTW WS don't seem to fire on the move and also their AI is warped. They either want to melee or at least get too close (inside their maximum range) before they start firing. I think range 30 is sorely needed, especially with how fast those 2 teles are used up. I would even agree to WS having the energy for 1.5 jumps instead of 2.

[psychodil]

lol, range 30 warp spiders.

[[Vertigo]]

I would have to say a Warpsider with a range of 30 would be the WORST idea I have ever heard for a balance change, ever!

[psychodil]

Yeah, how about buffing defiler AC damage while youre at it.

[[Vertigo]]

Naw, how about we give the AC a range of 45 so it can counter missiles as well as everything else you could possibly build.

[TheLoneKnight]

That would probably be more sane than increasing WS range to 30, Vert.

Ah well, I more or less agree with the OP on many of the balance ideas. The plasma thing I don't get, but it seems pretty decent all around otherwise. Warp Spiders either need to become more expensive (as relative to their damage), or they need to have that damage (or their range) decreased.

[frenchjesus]

DoW didnt deserve that -_-

[komninosm]

Well if you fix the WS AI perhaps their unusualy low range of 24(!) will suffice, but any lower and you're asking for trouble. Spiders can already be neutralised by NL or stormboyz. You're the ones who are biased. Current WS with range 30 will be overpowered, but if you cut back on their damage a bit they can use the increased range. At 30 they're like a plasma (only less powerful) that can't shoot on the move BTW!

WS are overrated. Sure they are very good, but not OP or uncountrable. The Defiler is uncounterable, your examples are self-serving and make no sense. The Defiler is OP as is. A buff is ludicrous.

Inst: explain 315*29 = 300*32?

NaHeMoTh: You forget that you're not comparing 1 big unit vs 2 small units that total the same in stats. You compare 10 big units vs 20 small ones. Then the effect you describe is much less noticeable (though still there) till you reach low numbers left standing. Still it is a worthy point and here's my answer to it.
The normal WL is weak it needs a buff, perhaps more speed, perhaps more hitpoints. The big WL is simply a pure scale of the old one. So the benefit of the effect you describe is countered by the lack of a speed bonus (or whatever). If it was an already powerful unit then scaling should inflict some small penalty. There's also another effect (I think it's called crowding). If a unit takes up too much space then you can only put so many of it close enough to form an effective ranged barrrier, critical mass. If the scaled unit has the same old 'footprint' then you get another bonus this way. Still this is more applicable to weak for pop units like cultists or guardians.
I hope I'm making sense to you.

[[Vertigo]]

I can't believe that I am going to do this. Let the games begin!



Well if you fix the WS AI perhaps their unusualy low range of 24(!) will suffice, but any lower and you're asking for trouble. Spiders can already be neutralised by NL or stormboyz. You're the ones who are biased. Current WS with range 30 will be overpowered, but if you cut back on their damage a bit they can use the increased range. At 30 they're like a plasma (only less powerful) that can't shoot on the move BTW!


The AI of the WS is the same AI shared by dozens of units I don't see why that one unit should receive any special treatment because of the deficient AI. WS can be countered by NL and SB but that is the only thing the Orks have that gives them a fighting chance against the WS. I don't think that it would be any fairer to the Ork race if the WS could fire before the Orks even have a chance to engage them. I have a better idea, though, how about we just cut back the damage and leave the range as it is now? That would acomplish the same end through different means. Also Plasma is a tier two heavy weapon for a reason, Komninosm. WS are a tier one troops with heavy weapons that make Orks cry. Also think about the teleport ability that the WS have, changing the range to 30 means that WS can teleport farther away and get more free hits on the Orks before the Orks can catch up.

[Capitalist]

Komni: :yech:

[komninosm]

Capitalist, your behaviour is that of a troll. I hope it is as apparent to you as everyone else.

[Vertigo], I can't believe it either.
The WS are a ranged unit, kind of a heavy weapon specialist (and a hard counter at that). They also teleport and have a short range for heavy weapon specialists. They are not your run of the mill ranged unit. Their AI requires a few more lines of code than the rest. I'm not asking for them to be automatically microed by the computer. I'm asking that they fire from their pitiful max range instead of closing in. I'm asking that their weird behaviours are shorted out. I'm asking that they fire on the move like regular. I'm asking that their target priority to choose the leader of an enemy squad so often is altered (its almost always counter-productive).

BTW, NL or SB give way more than a fighting chance to orks. They completely neutralise WS for cost. The slightly longer range of the WS to the orks merely means that the lame AI habit of closing in will be corrected, 5 metres are hardly making it so that orks don't even have a chance to engage WS. And jump troops have longer jump range too.
As it is a basic(4) WS can barely kill a cheap ork before they can melee them with the pathetic 24 range. And the BM can kill a lot of costly spiders too. What ork players seem to forget is how expensive WS are and how easily they can be countered (with melee). And now with the increased stone cost and time needed they are too difficult to field soon enough (to avoid NL). They are like tracks, kind of, not appearing soon enough to avoid too many enemies with missiles.
But I can agree with your suggestion of no range buff and a small damage nerf and even with a buff to ork sluggas/shootas/SB. But what must happen is a scaling (not nerfing) of the NL to 1/2. Then we can talk about the rest.
By the way there are weapons not in Tier 2 with range 30, no range 35, longer than plasma, like heavy bolters (or the weak DR). But yeah there's setup involved (among other things) so I'd rather WS simply get the AI tweaks I mentioned and are nerfed within reason. But I've seen people suggesting range 20 and some other ridiculous things so I had to speak up.
If anything I think WS are only too good for pop. They need to lose 1 member, perhaps adding 1 to DR.

[Capitalist]

Komni:

Now
:sniper:______________:vikingb:

Then
:sniper:____________________:vikingb:

That is a horrible idea.

[Deathbypeasents]

Um,Warp spiders kill about 5 or six sluggas before they get engaged but then telaport.Thats about 15 sluggas dead before they are engaged and have to flee on foot.

Warpspiders will own any light infrantry literally in seconds.There are no porblems with warpspiders.And if they fired on the move then they would dance all infranrty to death and Melee would be mute(muter then its current state).Them ingaging at their full range is FAIR.Im with you on that one.But the changes are unneeded and off the wall.

[[Vertigo]]

The balance changes you suggest, Komninosm, have the ability to stack with each additional Warpspider you add to the mix. Range of 30 and slightly reduced damage is less in the favor of Orks (they have a hard enough time fighting WS as it is). With only one squad not much has changed but each additional squad adds more flexiblity to the Eldar and the 30 range is just too much. Range 30 means that the Eldar can space out his/her WS squads allot more making the Ork player run farther through fire to get to those squads. The WS will still have the ability to teleport and they will be able to position themselves farther from the Orks with a range of 30 meters.

Although SB and Nobz are the counter to WS those tools come out a little later then WS. That means that the Eldar player will have a head start on the Ork when it comes to countering the Ork counter. Not only that the Ork player will have a hard time maintaining map control, defend, and tech to the counters you have given, Komninosm. The biggest problem with your suggestion, Komninosm, is that Ork LP2 only have a range of 25 meters now; this means that the Eldar player will be able to siege an Ork base before the Ork can defend it.

[First And Only]

Nobody has mentioned the competitive community's primary gripes about Eldar right now:

Guardian rush!
FoF!
Rush (with no risk!), mass, tech, economy, all at once!

If anything, the guardian rush should be the #1 thing on Relic's to-do list. If anything, it SHOULD be making them scramble for a hot-fix, as it and FoF were both serious issues already in 1.2 but were missed. Right now, that's all you see every top player griping about at DoWSanc and it's in almsot every single thread. It caught everyone off guard that Relic didn't touch on these issues.

[NaHeMoTh]

Maybe FoF cost and build time should be raised, or it should require AP. WS penetration decrease now I think should be SLIGHT, since Deen has come up with a quite successful strat for orks: http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=63455

Komn: How about having a WL at 1.5 of what it is now (3 cap, 1.5 damage/hp/cost)? On the other hand, does it benefit form the holofield research? If not, it doesn't make much sense to me. I know fluff-wise it's not a vehicle really, but if it is considered one for the purpose of this game, it should benefit.

[komninosm]

Death, I was talking about a basic 4 man WS squad, you're probably talking about a full squad with exarch. Let's not forget the relevant costs here.
BTW, some guy is saying WS do fire on the move, the engine simply doesn draw the FX. We need some answers on that.

[Vertigo], the only point that bothers me is probably the LP thing. The main problem for any WS strat early on is the Big Mek, but if you manage to take him out you can probably do what you say. There's also some examples of normal 25 range (bolter, etc) units outranging 25 range LP turrets. It's weird but happens sometimes. There's something wrong with the game engine. Maybe the turret range is calculated from the center while the troops fire on its edges.
The added cost of 30 pow to the WS stone makes the FS very hard to produce if you go with fast spiders. So you have nothing to counter the Big Mek. I don't think it's a huge problem, but it's there.
I wouldn't mind keeping range 24 (a fix to the AI would be welcome) but all these suggestions about range 20 are bad. If anything 25 should be the range (along with the slight damage nerf). As it is, sluggas outrange WS!
And once you get NL you'll wish you never had bought those spiders but went mass guards and shuriken plats instead.
BTW, you didn't comment on my WS teleport limits. Oh wait that was probably in another thread. Limit teleport to 1.5 instead of 2 or half recharge speed instead.

FAO, yeah right. We all know the guardians are uber. I'm very familiar with your bias. Before the reset you had like 500 games with SM and 1 with any other race, or something like that.
Guardians are fine. People need to learn to melee them and they're not that good.
Why was it in 1.2 when I was suggesting mass guardians as a strat that I didn't receive a warm welcome? Perhaps in 1.3 the other Eldar units that were worth a damn were nerfed so mass guards has become more prevailent, but Guardians themselves didn't change at all. I guess you just like to complain about anything Eldar that has a chance of beating your precious SM. Then again you like to complain about all other races and not take criticism of SM. I guess that slight scout nerf really hurt you. :-p

Nahemoth:
I think the excuse why holofield doesn't affect WL (it doesn't) is that it needs a fast moving vehicle to work right or something like that. Game balance-wise it would be a good way of buffing the WL without overrdoing it at all.

[testthewest]

WS truely need some changes:
First: They should geal nearly 0 dmg to commanders and heavy_inf. Right now, the exarch kills commanders and heavy_inf quite good.
Second: I think a WS only army should lose to a mixed army. Still for their heavy price (60/20--the most expensive tier1) they need to be powerful. I suggest a sligh dmg reduction (10%) and a setuptime (1 sec). Another option would be to make them as slow as Terminators (16speed), so if you wasted your teleports, they will get caught.

There are more eldar units that simply need to get more specialized by nerfing their dmg they deal to wrong armorclasses. Brightlance i.e. deals too much moral and normal dmg to infantry.

[mlai]

The added cost of 30 pow to the WS stone makes the FS very hard to produce if you go with fast spiders. So you have nothing to counter the Big Mek.

Intended balancing act by Relic.

As it is, sluggas outrange WS!

Oh noes, sluggas gonna kill WS now. By shooty.

And I'm not taking you out of context. Your above statements were made to justify a WS buff.

[[Vertigo]]

The easiest fix I can think of for WS is to increase their pop cap to 4 and be done with it.

[mlai]

I agree with [Vert]. For sake of game diversity I do not like the idea of nerfing/buffing units until they're vanilla.

[savagedave]

My list would be even 'slighter'

Slight something off Guardian dps
Bit more off Defiler dps
A little something added to Sorceror build time
Ork Vehicles moved forward one banner
A little bit shaved off Warp Spider dps

Jobs a good 'un

[komninosm]

mlai, that's what I meant. Relic fixed the WS just fine. There's no need for further nerfing. If you nerf anything more you should buff something to counteract it. If you nerf range or damage you should increase mobility (more teleports faster move, perhaps FoF). If you nerf mobility (less teleport charge, less speed) you should buff range. WS are fine.

[Vertigo] pop cap 4 is huge. Even 3 is very hard to swallow. All that's needed is perhaps 1 or 2 less WS in the squad (but add them to the DR squad ffs!).

Test, WS are fine for hard counters. If you agree that hard counters should do about 4 to 5 times more damage to what they counter than the rest armour types and soft counters should do about 2 times more then WS are fine (and Plasma is fine for a soft counter). The only unit that breaks this is the exarch. Perhaps only his damage to heavy inf should be nerfed. It's only after the dual spinner research that it's too big anyway. Besides, aren't WS meant to take out all inf in TT, just short ranged? In compromise for a much more restricting role in DoW, they should at least have more range. 24 is pathetic.
BTW not all Eldar units are supposed to be hard counters. So you shouldn't change plats or guardians. DRs need a good buff though.
BL for instance deals similar morale damage to SM missiles for cost, but has no knockback! That's very important. The BL also deals a bit too much (for a vehicle counter) damage only to specific armour types, like monster_med, but that is sorely needed for the Eldar. I'd say it's fine. Perhaps it shouldn't have more hitpoints than shuriken plats but that's about it.

[[Vertigo]]

"[Vertigo] pop cap 4 is huge. Even 3 is very hard to swallow."

That is exaclty my point, I would have suggested five per squad but I had my reason. The Eldar can reach critical mass of WS (4 squads) around 4-5 minutes. That pretty much locks the Orks into their base untill they get something with a little more staying power (NL).

The Eldar can have 10 pop cap to start with

10/3 = 3 squads of WS still a little too much
10/4 = 2 squads of WS

With the 4 pop cap they can also have one squad of Guardians and an FS running around. When they build the Soul Shrine they can unlock the Exarchs and with every fourth WS squad the can put out another WS squad, but the FS all ready has +1 to infantry population. With that in mind the FourthExarch the Eldar put out would allow them to build another WS squad instead of having to put down 2 Web Way Gates.

[komninosm]

5?! You're ridiculous. Well no reason to argue with you if you're even contemplating that. WS are fine. Get over it.
WS aren't capping material either you know. You need guards. Your pop numbers are dreams. Dream on. Exarchs btw do not add +2 pop like other leaders. Only +1. Seriously other than pre NL orks Eldar have no need for more than 1 WS if at all. You're burdening the Eldar way too much. So what else is new. BTW did you count the costs of what you propose and the build times? As it is now you need the FS out ASAP. Other than building 2 aspect portals you need to queue her first. There goes your power. Seriously though, there's no reason to make WS more than pop 2. When you said pop 4 I was like he can't be serious can he. But pop 5? LOL

I only hope Relic doesn't listen to such sillyness. Though I'm not against cutting down the WS squad size by 1 or 2. Provided they buff the DRs.

[admiral_the]

Eldar in genreal need a small nerf. It could be to range or damage or hit points or something totally "out of the box" like not starting with a free builder unit at all.

They get a little too much a little too quickly and it hits a little too hard.

Too many possibilities to discuss sensibly without play testing.

Just gotta hope Relic will look at it in due course. :num:

[testthewest]

@kom: I think if a unit is a hard counter, it should terribly suck at the rest. And WS do too much dmg to heavy_inf. In TT they suck.

I think if a unit is OP, then you should give it more weaknesses. How about that speed nerf to 16. Then if their jumps are out they cant retreat anymore.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Having to constantly micro WS and Reapers based on whether the closest Ork was a Boy or a Nob would be totally infeasible.

[[Vertigo]]

As usual Komninosm is in his own argument.

"Eldar have no need for more than 1 WS if at all."

Then you wonldn't mind the four pop cap I suggested.

[komninosm]

http://lerp.com/~sic/dow/dps.html
Test, WS do about 35 dps to guardians and 29 dps to sluggas. They do about 6.9 dps to NL and 4.3 to heavy_high (like Terminators). Contrast that with a soft counter like plasma or heavy bolters. WS damage to heavy inf is VERY LOW. The stats show a hard counter very well. The only unit in the WS squad that isn't a hard counter is the Exarch. Even he is a soft counter though and is also very expensive. Also once he dies the squad loses a lot of efficiency. He doesn't have 866 hitpoint/100res like AC/Seargs or 900-1100 like NL. He has half that!
WS are just fine now. If you nerf them any more you can't use them soon enough (NL counter them easily as do SB) and you have to buff them in another aspect (like range). Their speed is already 16 and they have no FoF.
BTW, I was told WS in TT did the same damage to light and heavy inf, or at least they weren't that much a hard counter.

[Vertigo], shoe gets it. You won't be happy till you nerf Eldar to oblivion. Eldar hating is nice and all, especially in this forum, but it's not winning you any argument. At pop 4 you'll be out-squad if you get a WS squad out. I just won't work. Orks already own the many squad battle. They can have 25 squads while other races only 10 (SM can get 20 scouts I guess). Just make the WS less pop efficient by losing a member or 2. Then by that very logic make the DR more pop efficient. And buff their exarch a bit more. His cost is ridiculous (130/30 and 50 secs?!) and he still does as much damage as normal (weak) DRs. And then reduce DR htipoints to 75% and add 50% to their firepower to compensate.

[Capitalist]

Eldar players occupy 25 of the top 50 slots on the ladder. Orks occupy 6 slots. Unless you can prove that there are more than four times as many really awesome eldar players as there are really awesome ork players, I'm left to assume that eldar is overpowered and ork is trash.

I am an ork player; I can't beat [xt]SuperMan (who is currently #22 on the ladder) with my orks. It just doesn't happen. However, the past few times we've played, I've gone random and gotten eldar. I was able to roll him soundly with nothing but guardians and a farseer. It didn't even take thought.

[komninosm]

There are many ways to interprate that.
There are indeed more Eldar pro players. There is also a problem with ork vehicles. You can't tie it all to WS sorry. WS are almost fine. The nerfs some people are proposing are ludicrous. Guardians are also mostly fine. FoF is the only problem, but it's also the only Eldar advantage too. Still it can be balanced a bit better. Less powerful/more costly but also requiring less micro.

[Penitent]

30 range for warp spiders is insanity. so is 4 pop though, really.

I think they would be okay if they lost their grenades. With fire dragons coming in the expansion anti tank should be feasible for eldar infantry.

WS can kill orks infantry, they shouldn't be able to destroy all their waagh banners so quickly too with hit and run attacks.

[h2o]

and then give eldar no option what so ever apart from brightlances then the next major thread nerf brightlances again the eldar guy had 30 of them !

well with no anti tank infantry compared to all other races brightlances will be needed take away the grenades and then that truley does leave eldar with only 1 option

they should be able to destroy banners in hit and run attacks just like assault marines can with melta bombs if you remove haywire remove melta the whole fluff on spiders is they can warp in strike and warp out !

i agree with kom looking stat wise spiders are fine the hard counter to light inf and already get counter by nl and storm boys

shoe also added a nice point

its ludacris some of the points your making 4 pop umm ok lets make marines with plasma take up 4 pop aswell

or even better every heavy weapon a marine gets adds to 1 of there pop ?

seriously come up with constructive idea's in these forums

yes orks take a beating by spiders but they also take a beating from heavy bolters

utilse your troops better for example strom boys rape heavy weapons so do assault marines against reapers not to mention scouts

[Penitent]

Eldar are getting fire dragons for anti tank infantry, chill out on declaring eldar to be the great victims in all this.

The grenades need to go because warp spiders can destroy ork infantry and then take out all their banners, slowing down or even reversing the orks tech progress. Without grenades they still do a good job at it, but it will cost them more.

Nothing ludacris about it :)

[h2o]

sorry when has this became winter assault when where fire dragons added to dawn of war am i misssing something was it released this morning ????

why should warp spiders loose there haywire grenade they are the only sopposed anti tank infantry for the eldar with that grenade ok removing might be gd idea for you orks but what aginst the other races

i personally like to use 4 groups of spiders on sm to warp in when my wraithlords are attacking dropp bombs and jump out again !
( team game of course )

wha tyour baiscally saying is remove all grenades off all jump troops as they can do hit and run tatics marine assault troops do this very well aswell ok dont kill ork infantry as easily as spiders but chew up eldar reapers drop a bomb on an lp then charge in jump out when it looks against them

its a tatic all jump troops are capable of even your storm boys !

[Penitent]

Well I see you like using grenades in team games, me too (I play random, when I'm SM I go for a 3 ASM squad build with melta bombs to hit enemy buildings), but you have to understand that in 1v1 warp spiders being so good at killing orks, and then being able to teleport in and out as you say, keeps orks hemmed in their base and unable to tech as their waaagh banner keep being destroyed.
Orks need waagh banners to increase pop and get new techs, you can regress orks tech progress by destroying waagh banners. If you defeat his army in the field he can't stop you.

Here's another take: haywire grenades are meant to scramble enemy circuitry and the like, obviously this will not have any efffect on a grot sitting atop a pile of wood, nor an armoury which is just holding crates of ammo clips etc. So make haywire grenades useful only against vehicles and not buildings for orks sake.

And keep in mind orks problems are largely 1v1 based, in team games their arguably better than they were.

[_X_]

I would like to see there damage reduced against D-Reapers, Eldar games are spam WS makes it kind of boring.

[testthewest]

from kom:"WS damage to heavy inf is VERY LOW."

Well, but not their exarch. I bring this up, because they can handle SC and FS quite well. There is not much you can do in Eld vs Eld, then mass out and get exarchs.

[Santini]

*at kom*
http://www.stuntlife.com/forums/images/smilies/aktion086.gif

[psychodil]

With the exarch aura bonus WS acyually do as much damage to heavy infantry as tactical bolters. So much for a hard counter.

[h2o]

removing it from hitting buildings is not such a gd idea then what do eldar have to raid lp's and missle turrets against sm and chaos the game is balenced around all 4 races not just 1 offs you think eldar like getting there web gates destroyed by melta's on hit and runs aswell we cant counter them as reapers take to long to run set up and fire b4 you jump out again its very similar as asm can tear up reaper squads aswell

[n0z3k1ll3r]

removing it from hitting buildings is not such a gd idea then what do eldar have to raid lp's and missle turrets against sm and chaos the game is balenced around all 4 races not just 1 offs you think eldar like getting there web gates destroyed by melta's on hit and runs aswell we cant counter them as reapers take to long to run set up and fire b4 you jump out again its very similar as asm can tear up reaper squads aswell2 words. Webway. Shroud.

[h2o]

yeah which is a very costly upgrade at 200 req 200 power dont you think and i dont think i can get it that quickly and have a force strong enough to stop attacks

[Penitent]

In a team game I can squeeze the req for webway shroud when I play eldar (I am a fanatical believer in webway ambushes, the sort where marine players go "WTF I NO PLAY WIT HAXXERS!!11" and drop :lol: ). In a 1v1 assault marines are less prevalent, whilst warp spiders turn up in any event versus orks.

I will return to fire dragons for a moment, how about raiding an LP with a squad of them inside a falcon with a bright lance? Jump, destroy LP, decap, jump. I might try it when winter assault comes out. The next patch will take winter assault into account anyway, so I'm happy to take it into account for the next patch.

[Searaven]

H20, let me tell you about this wonderful little key on your keyboard. It's called a period, and it makes people much easier to understand.

I think the suggestion about haywire grenades only damaging vehicles is a great one, it fixes the problem with banners and retains their usefulness in the field for the most part.


yeah which is a very costly upgrade at 200 req 200 power dont you think and i dont think i can get it that quickly and have a force strong enough to stop attacks
A one-time upgrade that can effectively render such raids useless without a hero? sounds like a good deal to me. Especially since there is no real alternative available to the other races.

[Penitent]

Yes, your right Searaven... I am right :D

I'll make a separate thread for the idea later.

[Viq]

I don't think you need the haywire to take out an upgraded LP - i've done it with a full squad of WS enough times against SMwith minimal losses. The haywire only makes it easier.

[komninosm]

I wouldn't mind if haywires were gone and some other WS ability was added. Perhaps WS can start with 1 teleport and get 1 more after the upgrade (along with the dual death spinner). However the Eldar are really screwed against buildings (and vehicles later) on their infantry. Just compare a guardian with a choppa or a bolter. Eldar need some heavy penetrating firepower badly. Perhaps the DR exarch could get a missile launcher as upgrade, or all DR get a bit more damage to buildings (the again they need a buff anyway), but not too much. Or the basic Eldar units like Banshees and Guardians should be made more effective against building_low. Then haywires can go. Otherwise stop crying about BL spam, Eldar have no choice.


Psychodil, they are fine. They cost 60./15 not 50/0 like a CSM. They also have 420 hitpoints/100res not 600. So yeah they are still hard counters. They do 4 times that to light inf. A better comparison would be with heavy bolters. 300 hp/100res and similar dps for cost against light inf and much higher against heavy inf, hence a soft counter. It really shows how a hard counter should outdo a soft counter in the area of expertise. You give some you get some. And WS still suck more at melee.
The only thing WS need is a buff to their exarch against light inf and a nerf against heavy inf. Perhaps a max squad size of 6 too. And a fix to other Eldar units that still suck.

PS: I'm sure someone is going to use a butchered quote about me using WS and buff in the same sentence, but I hope you won't. At least look at the numbers first.
http://lerp.com/~sic/dow/dps.html