World's Smallest Balance List

[BiggestMek]

I have taken the time to play on accounts for every race before making these suggestions. I am sure you will want to flame them. Its okay. I just have to put my .02 out there so I cannot complain when 1.31 or 1.4 or WA or whatever comes out.


Ork
-Waagh Banner and LP2 each have slight HP increase
-Big Shoota reduced in cost from 40/30 to 40/20
-Tankbustas are 15% more accurate with rokkits than shoota/slugga


Eldar
-Warp Spiders cost changed from 240/60 to 200/100 (same total cost)
-Brightlances reduced to 800 HP (same as other plat), cost reduced from 140/105 to 140/90
-Fleet of Foot works for 15 seconds with 15 second cooldown

SM
-Armory cost 175 and no power

Chaos
-Defiler autocannon damage reduced, population set at 3
-Sorcerer canoot hit more than 10 units with either of his spells. Build time changed from 20 seconds to 35 seconds.


Explanation: Really, things are not that far out of balance, though end-results are. A few minor changes and the game will be much closer to balanced, though not perfect (never will be).

Ork-Banners and LPs are liabilities more than any form of defensive advantage. Big shootas are way under par for damage already, but moving the cost down a little (still more than HB's) will give them a shot at accumulating 3 per squad. Tankbustas simply arent worth making right now.

Eldar- Obviosuly the most superior race. Their warp spiders are fine as they are, but should not allow Eldar to tech while massing them. Adjusting to a more power-heavy cost will make massing WS a strategy and not a tangent.
Brightlances and FoF need to be tweaked. Regard the top 20 for an explanation.

SM- SM are the most railed race. Giving the marines an earlier armory will aloow them a chance at getting more than just scout and tac mobs. Chaos, ork, and eldar all have many more options by teir 1 and 2. This will simply bring SM to a competitive chance by allowing them the opportunity to at least see some of their tech and not simply scout-mass to survive.

Chaos- Sorcerer buildtime was an oversight, but his spells need a reasonable cap as well. The defiler is fine as a "catch all" unit (though I hate that kinda thing strategically speaking), but needs a slight adjustment with his autocannon and population requirement so they cannot be massed.

[Da_Fish]

Won't this get locked because it is for the suggestion box as some mod's would claim?

[TBS]

no, this forum is for discussing balance...if we didnt allow people to suggest balance changes then what would you discuss in here? O_o

[TheDeadlyShoe]

that would make tankbusta rokkits 100% accurate

[santiago4ever]

Then pot a limit to the amount of units/buildings Psy Storm, Eldritch storm and OB can hit as well.

[Capitalist]

Shoe:

And still 100% crap, amazingly enough :hat:

[TheDeadlyShoe]

that would be lame.

if you really want to limit the amount of units these things affect, spread out your units. ;)

[Viq]

I like your changes to the eldar WS, i play eldar, and i think thats the most original idea i've seen.

Just my 2 cents

[BiggestMek]

I think the sorcerer whould stay an inexpensive, early teir 2 unit. However, he should not be a game-ending unit at teir 2. If you want his spells to stay as they are, the sorcerer's cost should come up. Simply put, as is, he is far more efficient than par.

TB's need a buff. They are supposedly the tank-killing specialists, while they offer little, if any, advantage over an infiltrating chaos marine squad with missiles. If Ork is going to stay an infantry race, they need effective infantry units to counter mech. Otherwise, Ork goes back to needing mech to fight mech, which is perhaps against their intended design (as far as I understand).

All orks have 85% accuracy. If you like, reduce their accuracy to 75% and bump the TB up. As is, there is little reason to make TB's at all.

[savagedave]

Ork rocket accuracy is already about 80 percent, I don't think it needs that sort of boost.

[BiggestMek]

Another thought about ork rokkits: Or I'd be happy if rokkits went back to old tech location and TB's joined them.

[OutlawWasTaken]

Are you saying that both chaos and sm armories lose the power requirements or just the sm armory?

About the TB's, perhaps a ranged dps hike or an hp buff would be in order, seeing as their real power is melee vs vehicles. The ranged dps hike would allow them to better scratch the vehicles on their way to cc (or to allow them to stand off against walkers at range when massed) and the hp buff would let them get into CC range against a shooty vehicle with fewer loses (though technically the infiltration already does that in some cases)

That said, I like your suggestions and I think that this subtle approach would do the game well.

[ÜberJumper]

I wonder how orks would fare if you simply doubled the effect of waggh banners ork pop wise?

[BiggestMek]

I think that would be very interesting, Uber. However, I think it would require a few changes in addition to it, such as pushing stormboyz and trukks back a little.

Honestly, it may just the thing, I cannot really say. I do know the current state of things, and for that reason, it is a little easier for me to make my changes from here.

Maybe a compromise would be to leave them weak, but reduce their cost? again, hard to imagine this not affecting a lot of Ork's tech tree in the process.

[aqwerty]

i agree with everything exept sorc,bl,fof
fof shouldnt get a cool down its a micro skill ffs
sorc should only get buildtime increase + slight cost increase...
fof cost increase
bl hmm 900 hp will be fine...
the only thing with sorc that really bugs me is that stunning effect of his second spell, its even worste then what fof does early...
it just gives u no possible way to run...
i think 30 sec build time and no stunning spell will be fine or atleast decrease the time of the stun effect

[NaHeMoTh]

I still think limited duration FoF would really mess things up.

Instead, we could change the situation like this:
- increased cost and research time, to prevent it's use in early guardian rushes. You could have time to make 2 Guardian squads and research FoF in the amount of time you now can build 4 Guardian squads + FoF.
- give other races options for a better economy, or slow Eldar economy down (by decreasing/increasing costs of generators and LPs). It's many players' opinion that what Eldar really have OP is their economy. That would also naglect the need for removing SM armory power cost, since with cheaper generators they could afford it faster.

The WS idea isn't bad, unless you make Eldar generators signifantly more expensive. There's also nothing wrong with the BLs nerf, but I'd like to see changes to eldar vehicles implemented at the same time, Vyper's missle to make more damage against vehicles, and WL benefiting from the holofield.

For orks, I'd like to see shoota boys acc. better for big shootas, while worse for rokkits, whereas Tankbustaz acc. for rokkits could be slightly better (90%?). Sluggas acc. with rokkits should be the same as shootas. Trakks and Trukks/Mek shop should be also put in between their 1.2 and 1.3 position.

As for the Sorceror, I'd like to see his build time increased, as it's not really the power of his spells that's bad, it's his spammability. The best option IMHO would be however to make all commanders' abilities needing recharge when they're built. There would be no point in "deleting" them then.

[santiago4ever]

it just gives u no possible way to run...

kinda like... oh I don't know... entangle?

I dunno how many times I have lost because my CL/FC got entangled by those damn warlocks. Bad enough they have FoF to run over you with, that they also can entangle indicidual squads are just as bad... no way to stop them either since they run way faster then you.

without stunning spell chaos is dead dead dead... need I repeat myself? DEAD!!! Only way we have of actually killing eldar troops is get to tier 2, get sorc out and research chains... And you want to remove it while FoF and chains does virtually the same thing only they come out earlier?

[Vertigo]

-Sorcerer canoot hit more than 10 units with either of his spells. Build time changed from 20 seconds to 35 seconds.

I don't think you need the that AoE change, honestly. The build time should be enough. With that corrected, it's no worse than WoTE. Oh, and if you are going to make it 35 seconds, an HP buff would be warranted.

[testthewest]

I like the list. Its not complete, but its a step forward. Later patches might buff eldar vehicles at some spots.

2 things you might want to reconsider:
1.The autocannon nerf: Good to reduce the dmg, but I think it would be even better to give that weapon some weak penetration values for certain kinds of armor. Right now its a tankbuster, a heavy inf killer and anormal infantry finisher. If weakend reasonable, 2 pop is fine for them.
2. I think the sorc build time should get longer for each spell researched. How about: 30/45/60 sec?

[komninosm]

800 commander hitpoints in 35 seconds: About 23 hp/sec
Hmm, how many hitpoints do other heroes give?
Naturally FC is more defensive and CL is more offensive and FS and BM a bit different, but the CS is more offensive too (spells and special attacks) so I think he should be lower than the FC at least. About the level of the FS I think. That's about 18 so the CS build time should be 800/18=45 seconds. To be fair really.

[santiago4ever]

are we going to have those kinds of arguments now again?

Fine then I want the FS to start with only 1 spell with the other 2 being researchable at the SS. After all it's not fair that she begins with 3 spells and 250 hp more just because she build slower and costs a little bit more now is it?

[NaHeMoTh]

Yeah, I agree with testthewest on the defiler, 2 pop is good, cause it makes for more variety for CSM vehicle setup. But a huge AC nerf is needed, maybe even 1/2 of current dps against infantry and 1/4 against vehicles. HP should be also back to 1.2 values.

[aqwerty]

the thing is this commandor cost 150/hmm? 50!!!!
and have the best tier 2 spells!!!
santiago warlocks get owned by sorc so when sorc comes guards become useless...
and we both know sorc is alot better then entengel...
sorc is the best unit in this game
he have good dmg
the best spells
build the fastest
and cost 150/50!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

he shouldent get more hp but he should rebuild slower, atleast that will make him alittlebit worste but still he will be the strongest unit in the game...
a unit that can own 3 guard squads in 1 spell stune a all army and does better dmg then the farseer, cost less, have better spells, rebuild faster is just not fair...
atleast taking 1 of those abilitys will make him alittlebit fair, take his spamming ability he will still pwn

[Vertigo]

All build times are, frankly a shot in the dark.

But 45 seconds for an 800 HP unit that casts 2 spells and is DONE is too much. The FS is FAR better than the CS when you aren't abusing build times. She's more powerful and much more survivable(FoF) than the CS. A hp/time comparison isn't really valid.

Since the point is to stop spamming, I think 35 is a good starting place. Since he takes that long to build, he has to have a shot at surviving the first battle. An HP boost seems reasonable, since he seems kinda fragile right now.

[santiago4ever]

god forbid. A unit which forces the eldar to micro so that they don't stand around in a large heap... oh the horror of it all. If you lose 3 guardian squads to the sorc then you have freaking earned it. Just as I earn it if I lose 3 full cultist squads to a single psy storm.

If you think he is so freaking OP then come and play some chaos and show us some nice replays of him pwning a good opponent who doesn't make the mistake of putting all his infantry in one huge fucking heap for him to concentrate on.

[psychodil]

All tankbustas need is much improved vehicle damage in melee (same as all other AV units). Then they wouldnt be such a niche unit.

[BiggestMek]

Whenever you mention adjusting FoF, you can hear eldar players whispering "my precious" as they lung at your throat.

It has to go. Not entirely, but come on....eldar are the king of the hill and people have been chanting the reasons why (even eldar players) for months, if not entire patches now. If DoW is going to rise to the occasion as a world-class competitive RTS, the races each need fighting, reasonable chances in each match up. FoF throws every matchup against eldar in eldar's favor. It may be a micro-intensive ability, but requires the same amount of micro as any race, yet yeields a massive advantage.

...if nothing else, the eldar players need to be willing to risk a nerf for the sake of the game's community. Maybe the nerf is too much, in which case the eldar FoF can be readjusted and perhaps restored. As things stand now, Eldar haven't received a significant nerf yet. Each patch they come out far on top. Realize that in the end, even if you don't have a massive advantage, perhaps even a slight disadvantage, that the game is more fun when it is challenging.....not when it is a 100% guardian rush game.

[NaHeMoTh]

I came up with another idea to make FoF not that much of a threat. If races were more balanced in econmical way, it wouldn't be such a problem. The reason why most Eldar players dislike cooled-down FoF is because it would just make it so much less fun to play this race. Honestly, I don't want Eldar to be uber-powerful, all races should give players equal chances to win. But if FoF was implemented that way, playing Eldar would become so unsatisfying and annoying, I'd probably switch to another race.

[Santini]

Good.
Play as ork, and feel what it is to be mortal

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The Mad Doks Local 402 resents that implication, Santini.

[aqwerty]

i didnt say 45 i sayed 35
and common the sorc is op, his spells worth alot more then 150/50 for each 20 secs...
its imba! tbh sorc is my biggest problem with chaos not defilers...
defilers can be countered with bls, but on maps like fc the chaos will send them from both sides givving u no chance...

[santiago4ever]

And the FS will run around whole tier 1 with her 3 spells wreaking havoc without being killed unless the eldar player does a huge mistake, no scrap that. The eldar player can afford doing huge mistakes and still get away with the FS alive. By the time the sorc gets out the FS will have killed units worth more then a few hundred req, as well as having been so disruptive that the other eldar units will have killed a lot more as well.

Sorc is cheaper, but at the same time he is tier 2. He haves great impact when he comes out. But the FS will have had great impact throughout entire tier 1.

[BiggestMek]

Well the FS would receive a nerf when FoF gets a nerf
I really think you are right, santiago, that truthfully, the FS shouldnt have hero-melee immunity. All heros, the librarian, sorcerer, CL, etc can be tracked down and meleed, otherwise it is a bit silly. FS will be broken as long as FoF is broken. If nothing else, if FoF isnt touched, it should be removed from her (gasp! flame!).

Then eldar might have to live up to their reputation as a finese race and not pure advantage.

[komninosm]

Sandiago, you're making an ass of yourself.
My numbers were accurate. Why should the Sorc, a spell casting hero bring more hitpoints/time than the FS, the ONLY Eldar hero?
Time HAS to be 45 based on his hitpoints. His cost should also be much higher.
You don't even know that the FS doesn't begin with 3 spells, only 2 and she cost WAY MORE than the Sorc. To be fair his cost HAS to be increased.

Vertigo, the comparison is totally valid. Sorc also has teleport. His freakin spells recharge 50% faster even if you don't spam abuse him! His spells are totally on par with the FS spells (some better, some worse). He costs 150/50. She costs 240/80 or something (I'm too angry to remember). Let's keep things in proper perspective here.
Every-fakin-one (including Chaos pros) has been saying the CSorc is OP, but when I say it, I'm wrong? WTF man?
Hitpoint boost, fine. Make him like FS and BM. But make him cost as much as librarian at the very fakin least, in req/pow/time. Agreed?

BiggestMEk, Eldar have been balanced through nerfs and fixes like no other. I'm sure I don't need to go on on how wrong you are and why. They have been nerfed so much that mass guardians is the only reliable strat now.
The FS is far from invulenerable. Your hero can do more damage to enemy squads than she can do to yours. If they dance your hero dance, her too. Even her ranged is worse. If you chase her away then she isn't doing any damage is she? She's also receiving ranged damage all the time. She doesn't suck, but she isn't uber either. She also has a tendency to try and melee heroes unless you continually babys(h)it her, discarding all your other micro and macro responsibilities.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

ummm..komn. guide, mind war, psystorm.

[komninosm]

My humble apologies on that one. The rest still stands.
I thought he meant damaging spells and that Eldritch storm has to be researched. Guide is nice, but very situation dependant. It can't be cast on stuff like WLs anymore either thanks to the patch.

[santiago4ever]

Not fucking ok. Maybe I should say this in words you will understand. Sorceror is to chaos what FoF is to eldar. I agree to a small increase in buildtime and 10% damage nerf on doom bolt, anything else and you are fucking chaos over royally.

And if we are going to be fair we will have to give FoF to all races now wont we?

And can you please learn to spell my name right sometime this year please? that's like the 10th time you've spelled it that way.

And yes the FS costs 90/30 more then the sorc... has 250hp more and begins with 3 spells that doesn't have to be researched...

Oh and the FS >> all other heroes tier 1 even after spells has been cast. Why? I'll tell you why, huge AoE special attacks throwing rines through the air by the dozens, the other heroes dishes out more damage and has better ranged, but the eldar hero is disrupting like none other.

But sorry, If I'm making such an ass out of myself I'll stop posting.

[Vertigo]

Vertigo, the comparison is totally valid.

No, it's not. Because, as I love to tell you, abstract comparisons of units in a vacuum is a bad thing. The real world demonstrates that the FS is far more than the sum of her hitpoints. hp/time is a useless metric.


Every-fakin-one (including Chaos pros) has been saying the CSorc is OP, but when I say it, I'm wrong? WTF man?

Because you chose a BAD way to nerf. 45 seconds is insane. This isn't about you. It's your idea that is bad.



Hitpoint boost, fine. Make him like FS and BM. But make him cost as much as librarian at the very fakin least, in req/pow/time. Agreed?

Again, I'm not going to compare to a unit in a vacuum. Maybe that's where the CS will end up, maybe not.

Since this thread's whole purpose is MINIMAL changes, I'd like to try time and HP, and see what happens.

Unlike Relic, we don't have a patch budget, so we can mentally discuss "micro changes." I know you don't like that Relic makes 3-4 changes to a unit in one patch. So let's not do that for the CS, OK? Just stick with time/HP for now, not time/HP/RP/Power.

[testthewest]

About FoF: just make troops unable to shot while in FoF-mode. Than you can retreat too, without big losses.

[aqwerty]

lol santiago, fs doesnt kill alot at all...
actually she will kill almost as much as the other races hero will kill...
she is usefull but she dies very fast unlike the other heros that can take fire and dont die...
in the very early fights she is more usefull then the other heros but when heavy weapons come in she get raped unlike the other heros that can be focused by an edlar fire and still live quite long...
sorc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fs
in the first time he comes out he does almost the same dmg as her
he got something better then fof he ghot teleport...
he can stune he have great spells and he is spammable...
in the second time he comes out he already did more dmg then fs, this guy murder every inf unit eldar have he is the only reason i use plats against chaos...
and in big fights when a hero that will just run into the enemy army will die he can teleport himself and be very usefull even after he cast his spells
the fs is no way near him he is much much stronger
i will be happy to use cl early and in tier 2 get the sorc, it will be much better then have 1 hero that in tier 2 is crapy...
the only use she really have is early after that she isnt even worth building...

[testthewest]

"the fs is no way near him he is much much stronger"

"I am power!"
Well he already says it, so its clear that relic wanted him stronger.

[aqwerty]

good point, i never tought about it ^^

[komninosm]

Santiago,I have to admit that I spell it with a 'd' sometimes on purpose :-p
Think of it what you will...

Can you give me 1 reason why the CS cost so much less than the Librarian (req/pow/time)?
Then we talk...


Vertigo, it's not perfect but it's as valid as you get. No perhaps comparing with the Librarian is more valid. How about the Sorc cost as much as him?
My ideas are perfctly reasonable, yours aren't.
Give the Sorc more hitpoints? For only a 35 sec build time? Are you mad? Did you forget how little he costs? You can build 2 CS for what a CL costs! 800 hitpoints is way too much already.
Let me put it another way. 800 hitpoints are perhaps too low, he needs a 1000.
But his cost HAS to be increase to Librarian stats.
So you're not going to compare a unit in a vacum. What is your vacumless point? Is Chaos Tier 2 weak? No! Is he bad for cost? NO! Is he terribly similar to the Librarian in the tech tree and abilities? Yes! So I'm right and you got no valid points.
As for your Relic stuff, I suggested 1 change (buildtime 45), you suggested 2, one of which was a buff. An unneeded buff at that. Also I don't dislike RELIC practice of making too many changes. I dislike their practice of making too many changes were they are not needed (Defiler) and too few were they are (Rangers, DR, etc). It's an important difference. Or making no changes at all (WW, Hellfire, etc).
I'm not saying they are always wrong, most stuff is balanced and didn't need changes. You don't see me complaining about the Prism which got a ton of different nerfs over time. It was balanced just fine. They even ruined the Eldar tech-tree flexibility to balance it (stone requirements is a first), but still I don't complain. If only they fixed the WL too...

[Vertigo]

Give the Sorc more hitpoints? For only a 35 sec build time? Are you mad? Did you forget how little he costs? You can build 2 CS for what a CL costs! 800 hitpoints is way too much already.

See, what I'm doing is reacting to what I see in the game. I don't pop over to look at another race's units and say "CS should be like a Librarian." And "half the cost of a CL?" What does that have to do with anything?

What I know is that, in-game, the CS's power derives from his spells, not his HP. (Giving him more HP will not turn him into some kind of monster, as he's not going to wade into melee and kill everything.) What I also know is that he doesn't survive long on the battlefield, in practice. Ergo, increase buildtime and HP. Pretty simple logic, really. It just gives the CS a chance to survive a battle or two.



Let me put it another way. 800 hitpoints are perhaps too low, he needs a 1000.
As for your Relic stuff, I suggested 1 change (buildtime 45), you suggested 2, one of which was a buff.

I'm confused. First you say 800 is too much and then 800 is perhaps too little? And you counter-suggested 4 changes, which is what I quoted.

[komninosm]

What does that have to do with anything?
He cost half a CL and has already 800 hp vs 1350. He shouldn't have more than 650! The CL is a freakin melee hero after all. CS is a spell caster (and teleporter).
Also I said 1000 hitpoints for increased cost! Did you miss that? I was pretty clear I think.
All in all the CS needs to be made more like the Librarian in cost and stuff.

PS: Your 'ergo' is wrong. You forgot to add increase cost. It's vital.

[Vertigo]

Again, what does that matter? They aren't really related in any way, other than both are heros. They don't do the same job, so a strict comparison of numbers isn't really useful.

As an example of why stats are misleading, you could compare the Librarian and CL. The Librarian has MORE HP than the CL, costs less, and builds more quickly. Obviously, by your logic, something is broken here.

So why isn't it broken in reality? Because spellcasters can't leverage HP the way CC characters can. A CC hero does more or less constant damage over his entire life, so extra HP directly impact his power. A spellcaster hero is going to do tons of damage right away no matter the HP, then be relatively useless for a while. HP only changes the odds of living to cast again.

That's why I'm not big on statistical comparisons to other units. There's just too many intangibles to reasonably say "make this unit's ratio X match that unit's ratio Y."

[BiggestMek]

Well, I guess my hread has gone to shit. I had hoped to talk about the balance changes, not a tangent comparison of 2 or more heroes. Even if it is related, please agree to disagree or start your own thread.

[Sajuur]

Everyone take a deep breath and stop throwing insults at each other. Lets have a civil discussion with no flames!

[BiggestMek]

My reason for writing this thread was in hopes that others would agree that 1.3 doesn't need a long list of major changes, but a few reasonable changes in the right direction.

Yes, some of my changes my overstep their goal (which has exhaustingly been pointed at by chaos and eldar players), but the notion stands that we do not need major change, rather small, accurate ones.

[Slow_Runner]

Yep, nothing major is needed, it's few issues (mainly the def AC, as it's the most blatant one) and then it's good enough.
I personally feel that tankbustaz should get a 5req discount instead of the rokkit acc increase and I disagree on the SM armoury power cost, but mainly I think this is on the right track. I might be tempted to bring some sort of vehicular options for Orks too, but this is indeed on the right track.

[jeantend]

-Warp Spiders cost changed from 240/60 to 200/100 (same total cost)


WS need to have their damages decreased ! changing price wouldnt change mutch...
damages decreased and WS pop need to be higher

Fleet of Foot need to be nerfed ; maybee units with FoF, precision should be put at 1% too

[Viq]

I think if you up the cost of the power for WS, its a good thing, because the Eldar player will still be able to get them out, but he's not going to be able to mass them as quickly. I think your idea has merit.

[jeantend]

for orks the problem is always the same at the begginning or at the end of the game
if eldar make good economy first he ll fast be able to mass WS
and mass Ws always mean ork loose wich is unable to manage so mutch damages power
the modification is not big enought
it ll only change some seconds...

the other solution would be WS doesnt do damages to HI so they cant kill nobs, and they would have to produce reapers too to kill nobs
but WS should also do less damages to light infanterie, the time a full WS squad kill a slugga squad without nobs is really not normal !!!

[BiggestMek]

Well jean, to pump WS like they currently do, an eldar would need a third generator and would yet not be able to tech while massing. I honestly never lose to WS as an Ork. I lose to what comes after, as I cannot tech against the WS while the eldar climbs his tree.
I think there are enough replays showing 2 definite ways for Ork to beat WS in 1.3. Now, the scale needs to be slightly tipped is all. The resources stay the same, only the speed through the tech tree slows. This way, you face warp spiders and perhaps guardians, not WS+BL or WS+grav tanks.

[jeantend]

you really see mutch 1.3 replays where orks win ?
lol
we had some in 1.2, but in 1.3 we have really few such replay and this few replays shows crazy games where orks have big difficulties to win also if the eldar is less skilled as the ork...
for exemple this one : http://dow.sanctuary-network.com/index.php?showtopic=6453&#entry55539

the eldar should have been dead 20 times if WS wouldnt be imba
and if the eldar would have done mass WS he would have win also he was less skilled as the ork player...
and i dont think a price differance would have change anything...
WS ARE DOING TOO MUTCH DAMAGES

[aqwerty]

??@?!

[NaHeMoTh]

damages decreased and WS pop need to be higher
:lol:

You're not really giving any arguments, dude. Constantly repeating your demands doesn't make it more logical.

[testthewest]

jeantend: If your willing to open your eyes there are enough replays. If you still refuse to believe, then play eldar vs a good orc. Lastly: How do you think Charlie got top10 when there are only eldar opponents? Maybe they didn´t build WS because he asked nicely??

[jeantend]

hahaha :D
ask charlie if he think ork vs eldar is a balance match
dont say stupid things, orks have the lowest presence in the top 100, and the eldars have the most important presence in top 100 ; and the eldar presence is surely an explanation to the ork absence...

about the many replays, you must see them in your dreams... you can be sure i look all of them... and they are not mutch replays anymore in 1.3, and the few one are hard victorie also if the eldar is less skilled as the ork player (i said it already)

i tested eldar, and mass WS is not really hard to do vs orks, and then with grenades you can easily destroy an ork base with only mass WS and grenads...

nahe. about why WS must do less damages, is simple, just look at how fast they destroy a slugga squad and say me if you have the feeling this power is normal ?
is it an interest strat to make mass WS for a easy win ?

maybee an other solution would be WS wouldnt make damages to HI, no damages to nobs, so that the strat mono unit cant work
WS shouldnt do damages to HI, like reaper doesnt do mutch damages to light infaterie...
perhaps WS squads should not be so big too, and if WS would need more pop it would harder to make fast mass WS...

in all case WS are making too mutch damages to light infanterie
i m not sure for the solution, but WS damages must be decrease, and mass WS only should not be possible to win vs orks, without orks have a real solution

[komninosm]

Vertigo, by your argument then make the FS cost 100/50 and have 1000 hitpoints because oh you can't compare units with other ones.
I'm sorry but your argument means nothing.
Your only valid point was the Librarian having a lot of hitpoints, but he does like half the damage that the CL does and also he doesn't cost 150/50 like the the CS.
So maybe the Lib is a bit strong, but the CS is uber. And the FS is the ONLY Eldar hero you know, so Tiers mean shit.

[NaHeMoTh]

ask charlie if he think ork vs eldar is a balance match
dont say stupid things
No one said that ork vs eldar is balanced, we're just now discuccing a way to make it balanced more. And you sound like you just know your idea is the best and only one.

nahe. about why WS must do less damages, is simple, just look at how fast they destroy a slugga squad and say me if you have the feeling this power is normal ?
Kinda yes, if they were not massed so easily, and they wouldn't if BiggestMek's idea that you so eagerly bashed was implemented. WS are supposed to counter sluggas until they get Nobs.

[Vertigo]

Vertigo, by your argument then make the FS cost 100/50 and have 1000 hitpoints because oh you can't compare units with other ones.
I'm sorry but your argument means nothing.

You missed the point, totally. But since BiggestMek has asked us to cease and desist, I'll respect his request and do so. If you want to keep debating on it, start a new thread, as he asked.

[BiggestMek]

Jean, dowr.com has many good replays of ork beating eldar. Charlie uses stormboyz very effectively. At sanctuary, pureball has several of him using shoota+doks. If you check my strat guide for ork, I detail out the reasons why this match is very winnable.

You are right, the eldar are better off in the match-up, but as metagame goes, their strength becomes their predictiable nature, allowing for people to counter that specific strategy. With 2 distinct b/o's and methods for beating this problem, orks need only have a more balanced playing field, not any drastic jarring of the match-up.

Besides, as an Ork, I'd hate it if suddenly in 1.31 or 1.4 if Orks were really imbalanced.

[jeantend]

i wouldnt hate that... and i would hope it ll stay during 1.5 1.6 and 1.7, cause orks are waiting since 1.0 and nothing is done for this matchup... so that eldar see how this F### matchup make angry... and if eldar ll post to say imba, we ll only say, some eldar can beat orks, with a crazy micro and a crazy tek where no mistake is alowed, so u can do it just sho replays of progamers, and perhaps we ll make a little price correction in 0.3 next versions... but only 10 req so that we can see its just a joke like the balance relic made for WS in 1.3 patch....
me, sad ? no... why do you say that ???...

if you dont change the WS power, it ll always be the same ; when the eldar ll have 5 WS you wont be able to do anything anymore... and with you req modification, it wont be very hard to have 5 WS...


damn dowr.com presentation is so lame
you can t see the winner of the replay
look like they made some ameliorations
damn santuary is really a better presentation site... stop posting on dowr come on sanctuary guys :argh:

[testthewest]

"hahaha
ask charlie if he think ork vs eldar is a balance match"

Charlie will never think anything is balanced, btw. He´s always on the trip: "I outmicro and outskill all, still I lose sometimes....IMBALANCE!!"
Simply the fact that he manages to win vs eldar all the time (otherwise he would not be top10, shows that it is doable.

[jeantend]

pfffff....
some players beat eldars, so this matchup is balance ?
only 12orks in top100 and 45 eldars
the presence of eldar is certainly in relation with the ork absence
i dont say it s impossible, i beat some eldars too, but the first mistake you do all your army you loose and the match too..
the problem is orks need to be more skilled as the eldar players to win...
to equal skill its freewin for eldar...
thats only mean charlie is a very good skilled player wich beat all the opportunist unskilled eldars abusers...

[Capitalist]

Komni: "Tiers mean shit"? Okay, then certainly you wouldn't mind if the Chaos Sorceror were Tier 1 and the Farseer couldn't be built until after you'd researched Mobilize for War...

Think about it.

[testthewest]

Then go ahead and abuse! If its so easy. Point is: the WS aren´t orcs main problem. Once they are nerfed you will realise it, and then you will have to wait again.
WS massing alone wont beat any half-decent player besides eldar vs eldar.

[psychodil]

I disagree. Once 5 or 6 squads are out, with exarches and haywires, they own orks troops, buildings and light vehicles (all or ork tier 2 in fact).

[jeantend]

right psycho !
WS are orks main problem
if the WS imba desapear we ll be able to manage eldars vehicules and all the rest...
as psycho said the problem is that orks has nothing to manage this too mutch fire power...

funny 2 good players friends just saying me that they are tired too by eldars
one of them was TmG|Oryo, wich just loose twice vs mass WS

[BiggestMek]

I want to agree with both of you.

WS are a big problem, but I don't think Orks have any one "Big" Problem. To start calling any of Ork's worries big will end up in more imbalance. WS need a nerf. I am sure it is coming. Their past nerf prevented things from being worse than they are, you know? Really, the push back of vehicles is what screwed this matchup all to hell. Before then, WS's weren't seen as an unbeatable strategy.

Overzealous ranting won't get us anywhere, I promise. Not being negotiable in your reasoning is the easiest way to be dismissed. Really, there is a compromise to be made here. Recognise that WS are better than they should be (I dont see anyone saying anything contrary to this) and lets suggest a way to nerf them in a way that doesn't open another imbalance window in the process.

I sincerely believe requiring more power is a bigger deal than you might think. Otherwise, chaning the spider's core functionality, such as range or # of teleports will totally alter the units role against every other army. I think you could also reduce the damage of the spider to infantry-high specifically, but you have to realize that the reduction would need to be modest, or the Orks would overrun them.

Again, lets just be reasonable and people are more likely to listen.

[komninosm]

Capitalist, obviously I meant that Tiers mean shit since the Eldar alone* get no hero in Tier 2, not that you could take Tier 1 heroes which everybody has and put them in Tier 2. And even if you did you couldn't just move the FS, but all the other heroes too. I'm fine with that. Your example shows your bias as always.

*NOTE: Orks don't have Tier 2 hero but more like Tier 3, but I was trying to be brief. Knowing you lot, it's better to cover myself against ridiculous comebacks.