DoWpro Alpha by Korbah

[Korbah]

After finding 1.3 1v1 experiences lackluster I went and planned a mod that would satisfy the gameplay urges of myself and other pro players - I was looking for expanded gameplay and balance. I scoured the forums and took suggestions from the game's elite and added them to my own ideas and thoughts....then with the coding assistance of Nap/TmG|OmyLoL the mod became reality.

This is an early alpha with ork, sm and csm changes implemented but by god we got the gameplay right (balance is far to early to tell....but there's no clear signs of imba atm --> some of the defiler fixes didn't work but its already weaker so don't panic its not nearly as blatantly OP and DefilerTech is far less effective).

http://dow.sanctuary-network.com/index.php?showtopic=6560&st=0 for discussion thread

http://dow.4players.de:1046/index.php?option=com_remository&func=fileinfo&filecatid=38
for download

Enjoy! its still alpha but treat yourself to some incredible DOW gameplay.

- Korbah

ps. eldar coming soon.

EDIT: linky fixed

[Da_Fish]

Huh, all I get is a 404 not found :(

[Master Azrael]

can't wait to test it but can you already tell some of the changes you made?

[General Blaze]

Hmm..impressive. :)

But before I download the mod, could you kindly tell me what changes have been made? Would be nice if we know what to expect. ;)

[Moe]

Yeah a changelog might be a good idea.

[Korbah]

I'm short on time atm - changelog is in the discussion thread as posted by Nap as the different versions are released.

Once we hit Beta we'll be more diligent with the changelogs until then just enjoy.

[Devran]

Yeah these guys are busy making changes right now and we are busy testing. Be a little patient. :)

[Korbah]

Feel free to start plaing and posting bugs and issues

[Lt. Hill]

id get it if there was a change log

[ThE|MaFiA]

What's the point in releasing a "balance patch" if it's not official? Right or Unfair balancing, why should someone bother becoming a "pro" with a patch that will never be official? I could never understand that I'm afraid

[theBlind]

It'd be nice to have a changelog. Until then, I won't bother registering at DoWS just for it.

[Tiresias]

damnit I need to fix my gaming pc just for this mod!

[Moe]

Just copy-paste the log here korbah, not everyone has an account at DoWSanc.

[Korbah]

Here we go.....Korbah's Alpha List for the 1.31 Alpha patch:

SM:

• Scout: Damage nerf removed. Decrease max scouts/squad to 3. Slowed sniper rifle build time by 20%.
• SM plasma 35% --> 30% (marines are going slower and a bigger n stronger than scouts....hence smaller nerf --> the plasma was less of an issue here too)
• Scout plasma 35%(moving accuracy) --> 25% (scouts are so fast and light...they should be penalised for lugging around a big ass plasma gun at high speed)
• Hellfire Dread: a 5% damage increase across the board. Lascannon upgrade cost and time decreased by 20%.
• AT's exactly the same as they are now except they get rally
• Normal terms: 3pop, max squad size 5 starting at 3 with 2 hvy weapon slots (max 1 assault cannon) increasing to 7 squad size and 3 hvy weapons once orbital relay is build (max 2 assault cannon), no relic required, built at sacred relic and do not teleport in just walk out like normal marines --> once orbital relay is built they start in reserve and may be teleported in. Also start with rally.
• ASM: Reverted to 1.2 stats.
• Orbital bombardment damage reduced to 65% of 1.2/1.3? (don’t think it was changed)
• Preds: build time decreased by 5 sec. All tier3 lascannon costs decreased by 20%
• Sarg: change armour type to inf_heavy_heavy, reduce hp from 650 to 600, improve base melee damage/powersword/Powerfist will now be slightly more effective against vehicles/buildings than a single rocket in CC. Base pistol damage increased/plasma too
• Armoury: heavy weapons upgrade decreased to 55/55, Bionics and targeting upgrades all build 15% faster. Powerfist upgrade research time increased by 10%. Armory cost decreased to 165/35
• Eco upgrades 1 and 2: available in tier2 once sacred relic and machine pad are built and 1st research is completed
• Frags: friendly fire disabled, research time decreased by 15%
• Whirlwinds: cheapened to 125/250
• Servitors decreased to 70req
• Mines 50/35
• Rhino: 1250HP, 95/95, medium vehicle, smoke launchers default, max 5 rhino, 1pop each
• Flamers range 25
• Librarian moves at ½ speed when WoTE is active not sure if working

Orks:

• Trukks: moved to 41 orky pop (Both moved forward one banner in the tech tree) damage as per 1.3, now cost 140/115, HP 1055, vehicle_medium armour type
• Traks: move to 51 orky pop…1.2 dps except against light_buildings which is now 24dps. Rokkit and chukka timer 1.3 nerf halved
• Rokkits: now @ 39waagh + PoG.
• Mek shop now @ 41waagh + PoG.
• Tankbustahs: higher basic morale +100, increased standing accuracy on rokkits 5%, give CC charge of 7 (if they don't already have one), give +100 morale, 5% increase to vehicle medium dps on top of acc buff with rockets and CC, 25% buff against vehicle heavy with rokkits and CC, decrease cost by 5req each.
• Nob Leaders: Klaws upgrade stackable with 60% of dps increase from the choppy upgrades.
• Looted Tank: decrease build time by 20%, increase battlecannon fire rate by 15%, increase battle cannon accuracy by 8%
• Big Mek: Mega blaster rolled back to 80% of 1.2 stats against light infantry types, 70% against heavy inf types, 60% against vehicles types, 40% against commanders, 75% against daemons. friendly fire disabled, research time decreased by 15%. Build time increased by 6sec with teleporta, 2sec with force shield and 4 sec with tankbusta kit and 8sec with Kustom Mega Blasta incompletely modded. Added vehicle heavy blasta AP value.
• Stickbombs: friendly fire disabled, research time decreased by 15%
• Warboss: build time increased by 15% (now 69sec)
• LP2 increased to 30 range, 200hp boost.
• Slugga big shoota and rokkit acc nerfed to 80% (u want them more cost effective…use shoota boyz u slack bastard)
• Shoota boyz big shootas moving accuracy 30% --> 25% (should just take the edge off this attack)
• Burna range 25 (up from 18)
• Shoota boyz rokkits moving accuracy 78% --> 65% (simply put this makes TB's much more needed in vehicle harass and shoota rokkits more static and inflexible to represent they're not elite rocket troops)
• More choppy and boyz armour upgrade build timers decreased by 15%
• Grots only build/repair at 70% speed when infiltrated
• mines 50/35

Chaos:

• Defiler: reverted to 1.2 stats +200hp. overall AC damage reduction with 20% across the board.
• Machine Pit: 3 pop cap.
• Horrors: Reverted to 1.2 stats. build speed reduced by 6%.
• Cultists: Grenade Launchers – inf_light damages reverted to 90% of 1.2 stats. Inf_heavy 1.3damage remains the same (thus they counter light inf effectively but not heavy inf). The build timer for gl’s/plasma should be ½ way between those of 1.2 and 1.3 (1.3 too long, 1.2 too short). Gren FF disabled. AC build speed ok. 1.3 cult hp ok.
• Heretics 0pop, heretics heal in tier2 taint 1hp per second
• Sorceror: Increased build to 22sec time after chains/corruption has been researched by 4 secs for chains and an additional 2sec for corruption. 15% doombolt damage nerf.
• Raptor: Reverted to 1.2 stats. Can be upgraded in tier 2 to take powerswords and later powerfists as one of their 3 weapon slots  incompletely modded
• Obliterators: Reduce pop cap to 3. Relic no longer required. Significant lascannon boost
• Champs: change armour type to inf_heavy_heavy, reduce hp from 650 to 600, improve base melee damage/powersword/Powerfist will now be slightly more effective against vehicles/buildings than a single rocket in CC. Base pistol damage increased by 1.2
• CSM rockets: increase to do equal dps as SM rockets
• PSM: reduce max squad size to 7, restore to 1.2 stats, decrease starting squad size to 3 and adjust squad cost accordingly, decrease build time by 8%, decrease the daemonic talons, daemonic fire and daemonic mutation upgrade timers by 25%, speed remains the same time. Daemon pit restores max squad size to 10.
• Armoury: heavy weapons upgrade decreased to 55/55, Bionics and targeting upgrades all build 15% faster. Powerfist upgrade research time increased by 10%. Armory cost decreased to 165/35
• Preds: build time decreased by 5 sec. All tier3 lascannon costs decreased by 25%
• BT: decrease build speed by 10%. Starting HP remains the same. Change HP cap to 12000. Reduce HP loss to 5hps. Increase HP gain per to 20% of hit damage.  the exact details need working out but essentially BT now is a no.1 priority since left alone it will almost dbl its HP as it massacres you, it also dies slower. In fluff daemons get stronger if you allow them to do as they wish….DOW will be the same mmuwahaha BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!! :D. Obviously the regen cannot be too fast but will need to be enough that it can gain hp at a steady rate in combat if left unchecked. BT CHANGES ARE NOT MODDED – only a 5% ACC buff instead as a placeholder….any ideas on how to get this working in game???
• Eco upgrades 1 and 2: available in tier2 once sac pit and machine pit are built and 1st research is completed
• Frags: friendly fire disabled, research time decreased by 15%


Soz guys for delay - I'm only home 7hrs a day atm and have no computer access in other times. This list is relatively accurate to DoWpro 1.314 changes. Whenever a new build comes out it will be updated on the above DL link - same versions needed to play online.

[General Blaze]

THere we go. ^^

[Tiresias]

Termies at tier 2 albeit reduced! Genius if it works, might give an alternative to dreads

DAMNIT i want my pc to repair itself!

[56KbModem]

You nerfed ork too much while they suck already and almost nobody is using them, and a reduction in rec cost of reinforcing troops of 35>>>20 would be really nice.
i see some ork killed you this one time and you got an urge to nerf them more so this wont happen again.

[Seithon]

I dont think i'll get this...
Infact i'm fairly sure i wont, some of it seems okay but i dont see the point in alot of the changes.
Infact looking at ork it looks more like you simply want to make it so that people can just go back to pushing out trakk's for the win.. that doesnt fix anything it just puts people back to relying on it..

[ThE|MaFiA]

Strange, there are no changes to the Eldar Race, either you forgot to include OR you favour eldars hence we can't talk about "real balance"

[Seithon]

Yes thats true.. without any changes to eldar theirs no real point in styling it as a balance patch/mod.

[General Blaze]

according to Korbah, it's still under Alpha stages. Next will be Eldar.

[Korbah]

ffs I said eldar aren't done yet! your comprehension skills need work peeps.

As for "omg u nerfed orks" go and play the damn thing or get the opinions of pro orks who've actually PLAYED the mod in the dowsanc thread. Orks are by no shape way or means underpowered against SM. Defilers are still dubious but much less imba...and that's because some of the changes aren't fully enacted yet --> chaos was a rush job, we will fix asap.

Play DoWpro first...whine later

[Seithon]

Interesting.. still just noted that Termies are tier 2 now..
I dont know what to make of that, i get the feeling the mod will turn into something very strange if it continues like that.

[Deen]

Seems like too many changes, this changes the balance a lot.
radical changes are Trukk getting dread armor and seargents getting terminator armor. With that medium armor trukk rush will be MUCH worse than trakk rush in 1.2 since only rockets can even dent it. Light armor can be killed pretty good by bolter/heavy bolter fire, that is why early vehicles always had light armor.
Why would anyone build trakks now if trukks are like mini preds now?
Same idea with seargents, you made them very strong. You can now add ACs to cultists, get bionics/powerfist and just go melee stuff with your ACs.

[Master Azrael]

don't know what to think of it since I am one off the lucky ones who aren't pro. Also you don't have to go bitching as soons as some people have doubts.

[56KbModem]

Korbah:
I wasnt like "omg you nerfed them", but i play ork a lot, if not mostly ork, and as far as i can see the biggest impact on your mod is to make ork vehicles better, which i agree too 100%, its a great idea, especially with looted tanks that are building forever, but there are also some infantry nerfs which i find to be not actually neccesary, they die to fast to anti infantry units/guns/vehicles and i see their rokkit accuracy nerfed. And ork is all about infantry.
And i will play this mod as soon as i can, i just got up from bed so i gotta do some things first.

[nodachi]

meh. Such drastic changes are a little over the top for my tastes. Something small like number fiddling might be a better idea.

chaos:
nerf defilers back down to 1.2 stats, the bug fix was enough. decrease damage to buildings with ac.
increase buildtime for scor, increase HP, increase cost.

SM: pretty good as-is termys are good, but not the end all squad of infantry, much like the oblits, but damn if a squad of them wont lay down some serious pain before going down.

orks:
Trax back to 1.2 availabilityor even less, but made much weaker to represent what they really are, jetskis with treads. Rockets should not be the only thing powerful enough to stop them if the orcs quicktech to them. This will force orks to either use them as quick strike units, or upgrade them to arty peices lategame.
Cans: available a bit earlier that 1.2, might need to balance stats acordingly if it is to powerful (increase buildtime perhaps).
Looteds: Increase damage, splash radius.
VFact gets put back to what it use to be in availability.
Increase toughness of orks buildings a smidgin
orc rocket launcher good against armor like 1.2, but it really doesnt need to do that much damage to infantry.

Eldar: cant say i really know much about them, but BL should not be the only vehicle until prisms that they build. increase damage a bit perhaps, but decrease health SUBSTANTIALLY. Forces the eldar player to support his artillery instead of having them soak up a ton of damage.
Warp spider: make availability similar to ASM / Raptors. strong, highly mobile assault troop style units should not be available so early without some drawbacks.

matchups:
ork vs eldar. Weaker BL mean that they would be easier to kill (although you might have a prob if damage increases) warpspiders become more of a hinderance to economy like a raptor or asm rush would, and the better availability of orky vehicles gives them a little metalic oomph to back up midgame. The nerf to the trax could prove slightly worrysome, but they are still pretty gnarly damage wise.

Chaos vs= everything else. No spamable scor, weaker defiler, looks good to me.

[TBS]

He doesnt say anything about moving termies to tier 2..?

and I assume there have been changes to eldar - pro players love to whine about how overpowered eldar are, they wouldnt have ignored them.

[|AXiN|]

Hey, here's a thought. Play it, then make comments. There are too many chages to just look at them and say they're crap, and almost no figures are given here for you to base your comments on.

Until you've played it, you aren't in a position to comment.

[Master Azrael]

The orc problem is more that they are the only race that doesn't have a early heavy infatry:

Sm: inf: Scouts, heavy inf: Space Marines
CSM: inf: Cultists, heavy inf: Chaos Space Marines
Orcs: inf: sluggas, shootas, tankbustas, storm boys, heavy inf: ehhh....(nobs don't count)

[Aetherfox]

very nice changes : i must say i like this changelog a lot more than the real one we got from 1.3

= )

i haven't touched 1.3 yet because of what they did to the game, but i might reinstall DoW just for this, thanks Korbah and team =p

[Korbah]

56k trust me orks are doing well against sm n csm atm.....guys i appreciate feedback but its kinda useless unless you've actually played the mod.

ATM balance is more of a side issue than identifying bugs.....we'll get all the units working with the changes then look for imba.

In the meantime enjoy the changes and fun! Everyone who's played it seems to absolutely love the way it now plays.

[General Blaze]

Just curious, but when this is finalised, do you guys want to submit this to Uberjumper so he can pass it to the Relic folks since Uber knows them best? It would definitely benefit both the company and the community. :)

[Korbah]

When its done we will petition relic with it (we being Me and Omylol)

[Brian]

I like it more then 1.3 for sure.

termies at tier two are very interesting and most importently fun,as a auto player I never seem to see them until now.

[Gromij]

personally, from looking at the change log i think it is over the top. Like you got a bit trigger happy with the mod tools or something.

1.2 was almost balanced, it just needed slight adjustments. 1.3 was over the top.

Im not saying this looks imbalanced or anything, and I will try it tomorrow, but at the moment it just looks... too different.

[Korbah]

Its different.....you won't know the direction until you play it.

My vote is forward.

[ThE|MaFiA]

ffs I said eldar aren't done yet! your comprehension skills need work peeps.


You posted your project here, therefore you were looking for general reactions to it, either positive or negative, you have to accept them all, you can't hide behind the excuse of "it's an alpha you don't understand anything", you should have showed us an almost complete beta if you didn't want me to complain "where are eldar balances fix?" Understand? As for the rest, personally I find majority of your changes either unnecessary or wrong basically for two reasons:

1) They will never be part of an official patch and since most ppl plays ladder your mod won't make much sense
2) Forgive me if I put my trust much more in a relic balance team rather on a SINGLE guy providing us balance

[FatalTheRabbit]

Maybe different is exactly what DoW needs? Maybe it's fundamentaly flawed as is? Actually... it IS fundamentaly flawed and that fact has been acknowledged by Relic as they are re-working the tech tree in Winter Assault. Maybe the changes we are seeing with 1.3 are tied in some way to the expansion.

Anyway, people should stop with the knee jerk reactions. Test it and then judge it... otherwise you're just ignorant.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

A few things I'm not understanding here:

SM:
Termie buff... overall good, but I think they sound just a bit too good for 3 pop... I'd revert them to 4
Sergeant buff... why's this needed? I never saw any problems with the sergeant.

Orks:
Big Shoota power costs are still 30? Or did I miss something?
Orks seem to be losing their infantry focus... I'd have put something in, maybe a hp buff or something, NL and Trakks being the ork army really ruins the feel of orks.

Chaos:
The Defiler still has a hp bonus over 1.2? With the AC fixed like it is now it would be overpowered even with 1.2 stats... the AC nerf is enough but not with the hp increase.
Horror build speed reduction... why's this needed? Horror's were a good unit, you know this as well as anyone.

Also... why the decision to do Eldar last? They seem to be the most out of whack side, logically they should have been done first.

[ThE|MaFiA]

Maybe different is exactly what DoW needs? Maybe it's fundamentaly flawed as is? Actually... it IS fundamentaly flawed and that fact has been acknowledged by Relic as they are re-working the tech tree in Winter Assault. Maybe the changes we are seeing with 1.3 are tied in some way to the expansion.


This is an interesting point of view. Maybe if every race would be perfectly balanced the game will come to a stall and nobody could win? Maybe the fact that the races are completely different and some are stronger than others increase creativity? Maybe a race is easier to master and another's more difficult but if you do your opponent can't win?



Also... why the decision to do Eldar last? They seem to be the most out of whack side, logically they should have been done first.


This is another interesting point of view, even though I think I can understand why eldars are last, most probably Korbah, exactly as any other of us favor a race above the others, no guilt in that, the world's cool because we are different from each other after all..

[Penitent]

Interesting changes, so eldar isn't done yet? I might download it once you get around to doing eldar, overall I'd say good job looking at the changelog, I could do with something fresh (but I'll wait).

[Korbah]

eldar is last simply because it has the most changes other than csm...who borrows lots of sm changes.

I'm releasing this version now since I realised how fun it was and didn't want u to have to wait until beta (possibly weeks)....i thought i was doing you lot a favour. The release was shoddy in terms of logs etc simply because its only 2 days since first build --> you're getting it hot off the press.

As for understanding the balance, only using the mod and playing will you see it all fit together.

[FatalTheRabbit]

I'm not sure that I get your point mafia...

[AVD]

First, the changes look really interesting to me. I do not agree with all of them off the bat, but before playing it I think it is quite silly to dismiss them just like that. This is not just a fix - it's like a different game :).

The changes I understand - I like, the ones that I don't - I'm willing to try out ingame, which brings me to the following questions:

- I have never been enticed enough to play with mods of any sort, so please indulge my ignorance or point me in the right direction as am I going to be able to play online with other people having the mod installed, are there any problems associated with this, will I be able to select on the fly whether to play with the mod stats, or the 1.3 stats, is uninstalling the mod easy or yes? :)

- is the team working on this mod (it's way over the definition of a mere fix) willing to continually support it, tweak it and otherwise reward the people willing to switch over it for the long term, including when WA comes out (I don't expect a written statement, ok)?

- how would I be able to distinguish which players have the mod online compared to 1.3 vanilla installations (in case the answers in the first dash are all positive)

- when is Eldar getting fixed as well? :)


Cheers and keep up the good work, I'm more than willing to try out the fruits of your labor.

[savagedave]

Orks are in no way nerfed in this mod, at least not from games I've played in, and games I've observed. And the races are being done one at a time, Eldar will be in soon!

[BlueJackal]

I haven't played this mod at all... but I have to say, nice job, Korbah.

You are showing dedication, dangit... and hell, maybe Relic'll implement some of these changes.

[Korbah]

to enable/disable DoWpro simply use the mod manager button on Dow title screen.

To play others in multiplayer online go to Gates of Varl and ask around for fellow DoWpro'ers. Also when making game names include DoWpro in the game name to make it easier for others to find a game. There are no stats atm...just custom game --> its still alpha :P. The only way atm to distinguish between 1.3 and DoWpro players atm is to ask soz...again its alpha.

Eldar will hopefully be done by end of the week....also ongoing changes to existing 3 races will continue as issues and balance are addressed. As for supporting this mod --> i'll keep going on it until DoWpro purrs like a ferrari

[Sajuur]

Moving to 1.3 balance.

[|AXiN|]

Also, when you click on a game in the Join screen, it'll say in the right hand side box with the details of the game what version of the mod you're running.

I had a crack at it this afternoon, and it's at a very high level for an alpha two days old.

[aqwerty]

well done korbah, OMYLOL and all the others ^^
i hope you will not nerf eldar too much :D

edit:
i forgot im a noob in all this mod thing :P
where do i need to place the mod?
how do i play it?

btw im unisystem ^^

[savagedave]

Unzip the whole thing in your DoW directory. Then load the game as normal. Go to your mod manager, and it should show up as "DoWpro". Simply click on it and activate, then go to Gates of Varl, where most of the online mod games are being played.

[aqwerty]

ok thx ^^

[Da_Fish]

Wow, you made chaos still playable. I expected the 0 pop heretic to be taken away. Might be enticed to get oblits. BT regen will rock!

Sorry for having lost faith in you guys.....

[|AXiN|]

Just as an aside, all you "Korbah obviously favours Eldar" people, he's one of the best Chaos players out there, and more or less only plays Chaos. Eldar are last on the list of races to do because they require the most work - at the moment Orks and Space Marines are being fine-tuned, and Chaos is still being worked on. Expect another release very, very soon.

[AVD]

@ Korbah

Thanks for your answer, keep up the good work! This sort of projects gives me the feeling of hope that even if the official patches don't do great in the future there will be enough of a player base to support something like this - a game living a parallel life.

I say this, because in all honesty with so numerous changes across the board Relic will likely not implement even half of them, neither before nor after WA, so continuous support from the ones knowledgeable enough to tweak this mod properly when problems are found is important. Such dedication makes me happy. Will definitely give it a try, although the ones that are likely to play this mod will kick my ass big time as I'm by all means not a GREAT SM player ;)

[theBlind]

I think I like your changes. I haven't tried it (not at home now) but I shall give it a try.

One think I thought of was to leave the CSM heavy weapons research at 75/75 (or even increase it to 125/100) - it's not much, but CSM early game is already stronger than SM and it would help differentiate both races more.


Play DoWpro first...whine later
Now, where did I hear that already? :p

[ÜberJumper]

Just a suggestion, it'd be a good idea if this was actually packaged as a mod so that people could activate it properly from the mod menu in Dawn of War and not comprimise their active installations.

This looks like it drastically changes gameplay, and as such is not really proper for a discussion of 1.3 balance changes.

Going to discusss with other mods...

[mlai]

I have 1 question and 1 suggestion:

(1) Why nerf Ork moving ranged accuracy? I understand Traks/Truks are better etc etc, but why nerf the Orky infantry's ability to somewhat counter dancers? It was never OP. If you're trying to enable varied strats, you should not mimic the Relic tactic - nerfing something to shoehorn player to do something else.

(2) What do you think about buffing CC-cover for the game? Right now it's 20% cover bonus for any squad in CC. Personally I do not like the "frontline meatshield" tactic - it's braindead easy and it favors the army with better ranged attack. My personal preference is 80% cover bonus, but I think it should be at least 50%. This affects all infantry in the game.

[|AXiN|]

Uberjumper: It is activated from the mod menu, the batch file is an alternative. I normally use the mod menu to turn it on.

I would say, though, that this is suitable for the forum because it is the suggestions for fixes etc and then an example implementation of those suggestions. Just my humble opinion.

[Tiresias]

I am looking forward to the tweaks to Eldar, but I bet its a migraine trying to tweak them

[|AXiN|]

Eldar haven't been started yet, other than the design document

[savagedave]

Version 1.315 is out, with extra nob squad goodness.
Click it! You know you want to! (http://dow.sanctuary-network.com/index.php?showtopic=6560&view=findpost&p=57314)

[DukeRustfield]

Man, huge changes. I find a lot of stuff I don't dig though.


Scout: Damage nerf removed.
So we're back to pure Scout rush and dancing fun. I can't think of any reason to bring that back. Since no other base units were buffed, Scouts will be pretty tough again.


• ASM: Reverted to 1.2 stats.
Go baseraping go!


• Whirlwinds: cheapened to 125/250
I don't think the impact on multiplayer maps is appreciated for cheap artillery. Mortallis will be unfun.


• Tankbustahs: higher basic morale +100, increased standing accuracy on rokkits 5%, give CC charge of 7 (if they don't already have one), give +100 morale, 5% increase to vehicle medium dps on top of acc buff with rockets and CC, 25% buff against vehicle heavy with rokkits and CC, decrease cost by 5req each.
Still no building dmg? Still light armor? More morale isn't going to help much when they are punching a dreadnaught. You are trying to make them useable by weakening sluggas/shootas with rokkits but I think these guys need huge buffs before anyone takes them seriously.


• Nob Leaders: Klaws upgrade stackable with 60% of dps increase from the choppy upgrades.
As stated above, with the nerfs to other shootas/sluggas these guys even more become the backbone of the army.


• Looted Tank: decrease build time by 20%, increase battlecannon fire rate by 15%, increase battle cannon accuracy by 8%
Jesus, take off the battlecannon. Increase the bolters. The BC is just Ork-hating as it is.


• Shoota boyz rokkits moving accuracy 78% --> 65% (simply put this makes TB's much more needed in vehicle harass and shoota rokkits more static and inflexible to represent they're not elite rocket troops)
No, it means Orks have even crappier AV if that was possible, because TB still aren't a good deal because they are sucky, expensive, and ONLY hurt vehicles.


• Grots only build/repair at 70% speed when infiltrated
I think this is unnecessary. As soon as people research infiltrate, grots disappear forever. I don't think you should have to micro builders. By the time you realize you need to cloak your grots, they are being fired on and can't cloak.


• Defiler: reverted to 1.2 stats +200hp. overall AC damage reduction with 20% across the board.
If 20% was like 70% you'd have something. So instead of doing 159 DPS to light infantry they will only do 127? That's still 30% better than a Nob (from Nob Squad) with Power Klaw.


• Cultists: Grenade Launchers – inf_light damages reverted to 90% of 1.2 stats. Gren FF disabled.
This so rapes Orks and Eldar. If you're taking off FF, you really need to nerf dmg.


• Obliterators: Reduce pop cap to 3. Relic no longer required. Significant lascannon boost
This and the Termie no relic requirement isn't exactly fair. Oblits in 1.3 are pretty solid. I use them. But they are balanced with Squig/Avatar. Terms + Land Raiders = Squig. Because I think ppl agree Squig is better than one or the other. Same with Avatar, which is better than Bloodthirster. So now they have a nice premium over that.


• Champs: change armour type to inf_heavy_heavy, reduce hp from 650 to 600
That is insane. There is absolutely no reason for that. That's a 50% reduction in dmg taken by some units (Guardians, Banshees). And pretty huge for vehicles too. You're trying to turn them into Nob Leaders when they are attached to actually solid units. Unlike Orks which are attached to crap by comparison. A powerfist Champ who rages will beat a NL in a 1v1 fight. When you add in their respective squads, they will be better CC forces than Orks. That's not good.



• PSM: reduce max squad size to 7, restore to 1.2 stats
In 1.3 they are still gods. I think they were nerfed for a reason. The only way I could kill them (1.3) was by massing them myself. This will negatively impact multiplayer games I think.


• BT: decrease build speed by 10%. Starting HP remains the same. Change HP cap to 12000. Reduce HP loss to 5hps. Increase HP gain per to 20% of hit damage.
This is silly. So not only did you make it about as good as Squiggoth, but you made Obliterators not require relic. 50% more health than Squiggoth... EDIT: oh, they can build up to 12K. I still think that is very unbalanced. There shouldn't be WE MUST TARGET THAT. A few laz predators behind it and you have the choice of no base or an unkillable BT. At 12K health it would take him 40 MINUTES to bleed to death. Why even have it in? He's like an Avatar now with no cap modifications, but can jump and spawn on commander.


Some stuff is really good. And I only commented on the things I thought were bad. If I can make a suggestion, and you may have already done this, but I'll throw it out anyway: decide exactly how you want the game to change from 1.3 to your mod. What's the "concept?" Is it just tougher units? More? You need a hook for people to understand. I see lots of buffs for 2 races, some nerfs for one (Orks), and nothing for Eldar. Is your goal to make games faster? Slower? Use more items? Once you get a consistent goal, it's a lot easier to move to it and balance instead of piecemeal buffing units.

I think this mod would have a lot of imbalances because of these buffs. Chaos seemed to get a hell of a lot of toys in particular.

[Tiresias]

they reduced scout squad size to 3, don't forget and made them more expensive or something.

accuracy buff for rockets is big for tankbustas, and I'm not sure, but isn't there an overall buf for all rockets

I think in DOWSanc Korbah said he was a bit wrong with the defiler nerf, and more needs to be done to the AC.

[ÜberJumper]

Axin:

Cool, I'm not in a spot where I can download it and try it out right now.

Also...



Hey, here's a thought. Play it, then make comments. There are too many chages to just look at them and say they're crap, and almost no figures are given here for you to base your comments on.

Until you've played it, you aren't in a position to comment.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a bunch of people dogpile on the 1.3 patch prior to playing it saying it was crap?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of playing a product before critising it, but as this is a forum for discussing balance for the 1.3 patch, I'm not going to censure folks for discussing these proposed changes either way.

We're going to keep this thread here in this forum (for now), I would also encourage the folks developing this to keep in mind the single player campaign when you're developing this... or at least play through the campaign with the entire mod in place and see if it breaks anything.

[frenchjesus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a bunch of people dogpile on the 1.3 patch prior to playing it saying it was crap?
Well they didnt make something insane like termies moved to tiers1 with +5 req to compensate...otherwise they would have been flamed ^^

Im testing psm and oblits / BT extensively, will bring some feedback later.

[ThE|MaFiA]

Rabbit, what if in a RTS there was JUST one race, most probably would be absolutely balanced, but also absolutely boring and matches will stall, since both opponents will have the same means and counters, so maybe a "slight" imbalance and some differences from races to races make a RTS worth playing.

[ÜberJumper]

K, the more I look at this list, the more I think "there's no way Relic's going to implement this as a global modification for the game".

There's too many basic changes to the way units are utilized. This is definately a mod for Dawn of War and not a balance adjustment to 1.3.

[savagedave]

Duke judging by how hard Orks are kicking my ass in this thing they're doing just fine out of it. Defilers getting further nerfs i believe.

[Da_Fish]

A few laz predators behind it and you have the choice of no base or an unkillable BT. At 12K health it would take him 40 MINUTES to bleed to death. Why even have it in? He's like an Avatar now with no cap modifications, but can jump and spawn on commander.

But...the BT is the ultimate incarnation of the Chaos god Khorne. Go BT! Kill everything! Not even the squiggoth can stand in your way! HAHAHAHAHA!!!

(ya I personally think that the BT buff is a "small bit" OP)

[DukeRustfield]

Duke judging by how hard Orks are kicking my ass in this thing they're doing just fine out of it. Defilers getting further nerfs i believe.
Well Traks are back. So that's where their power is. But high game, they will be murdered by all these stomping Obliterators/Terminators when all they got to show for it is a junky tank that can now break their own units faster.

I didn't know this was a proposition to change the core DoW. Just thought it was a mod.

[ThE|MaFiA]

K, the more I look at this list, the more I think "there's no way Relic's going to implement this as a global modification for the game".

There's too many basic changes to the way units are utilized. This is definately a mod for Dawn of War and not a balance adjustment to 1.3.


Uber, you managed to express exactly my thought =)

[Stefan]

its a good idea, but i really think smaller changes will be better. I know lots of people are jumping on board saying its a godsend, but just as everyone whines about how much the offical patches suck, i think you shouldn't praise this mod too heavily until you get through a significant amount of testing. Any mod that changes a lot of things is gonna appear fun/balenced and exciting becuase you can do all sorts of new things, but that doesnt mean its significantly better off then the versions we have been complaining about for months.

After hammering out plenty of the issues in the next few months, id like to see it sent to relic, maybe they can implement some of it.

[savagedave]

Nob squads at 81 Ork pop, no Orky Fort required. Squad size capped at five, plus leader. No Power Klaw till post-fort.

[Capitalist]

Just tried it out.

Looted tanks are still trash. I doubted that a 15% reload timer reduction and an 8% buff to accuracy would mean anything, but I went ahead and tried the mod anyways and... surprise, it didn't mean anything.

Mega Blasta is actually useful again, which is good.

Have you thought about giving Stormboyz a buff? They're really weak for cost.

[Devran]

I will try to convince Korbah to make small changes instead of this. This mod is no doubt incredibly fun to play but there are so many changes and it will be nearly impossible to balance it. I have been testing for 2-3 days and I am starting to see imbalances. Actually we can keep the mod and play it for fun but this is not something to be suggested to relic to be made official I think. It has potential but it will take at least 3-4 months to balance this and we dont have that much time. I think we should make some small tweaks to 1.3 and it will be fine.

[Stefan]

I think you guys are better off trying to make an actual balence mod, as in take 1.3 do the changes we/you think will balence it out, and test test test, might give relic some ideas at least.

[komninosm]

LMAO @ people complaining about Eldar. As this mod mostly buffs races (and fixes only the grossly imba stuff) Eldar are made weaker!

You're supposed to be pros and you buffed the AC/Seargs? Do you even know what inf_heavy_high means (or is heavy_heavy a new armour type /sarc)? Yeah buff the most cost efficient units in the game.
There's too much stuff to comment, but I agree with Noze mostly.
Still I like a LOT of changes so far, but not all. But overall I'd have to pass because I disagree with main decisions like cult nade FF and not nerfing ASM/Raptors or NL or PSM and various other stuff.

[savagedave]

Well as Eldar aren't in yet you have absolutely no idea whats going to be done, so it'd probably be wise to wait and see.

[Chris]

AC/Seargent might look great on paper but they have a nasty habbit of leading from the front and dying very easily, even with just over double the HP of a regular C/SM, not to mention that they're tier 2 unlike nob leaders and exarches which are 1.5. =\ Nob leaders seem to be the only leader unit that actually out-lasts their squads.

[komninosm]

If AC dies then he served his purpose, he shielded the more costly per hitpoint marines or whatever. I fail to see your point.
Exarch on the other hand you wish would live to the end (except the sucky DR exarch)

[Penitent]

Segeants do good damage and have rally ability, there's no need for them to die in the place of 1-2 marines, the moral damage from losing those marines and being under fire makes him more needed for his rally.

[Inst]

I don't get it, how does korbah justify plasma nerf? Faster armoury is great, but how does korbah justify keeping grenades nerfed against heavy infantry, they were great in that they forced heavy bolters. Since f2 is gone, they're more or less balanced. Were horrors denerfed? That was unnecessary, just as unnecessary as raptor chainsword upgrades. I still feel that psm buff is unnecessary, as are the termie changes, and oblits are fine at 4 cap, just offer the removal of damage idiosyncrasy.

Defiler nerf was somewhat excessive, you can just increase the build time to 59, and nerf the autocannon by 20 percent. Chaos sorc damage nerf does nothing, doombolt has always been primarily a morale breaking ability. Build increase is okay, the problem was that the chaos sorc died instead of recharging. I prefer a bloodthirster that would start at 75% of normal cost and effectiveness, but whenever you kill him, he costs 26% more and has 26% more hp and damage. This caps at two times the initial cost.

I suppose that korbah can just copy the vampire code off avatar for his bloodthirster, and try a modification of builders start at zero morale for the bloodthirster to start at half damage.
For sm, scout cap nerf is a good idea, and restoring their old stats is also great. Sniper rifle nerf was unwarranted, nerfing their range to 35 might have been a good idea to encourage hb use in sm v sm though. Plasma guns on scouts still need a buff from my opinion, they are never built.
Sergeant change is superfluous,

Hellfire dread just needs a buff back to its old hp values, an increase to its anti heavy infantry damage, and a build time increase. Whirlwind change is commendable, but getting the old barrage ability to work would have been better, if it's unbalanced, i'm sure it can be balanced. Normal termies are supposed to be the sm version of old cultists- good for cost, not for cap. Just like oblits, pearl of the army.
Ork shoota slugga changes weren't entirely necessary, and slugga rocket nobs were supposed to be

[n0z3k1ll3r]

I still really don't see the need behind buffing sergeants... They're a pretty cheap meatshield for the rest of the squad in a lot of cases. Besides most of the weapons that do kill them quickly like plasma and DR will kill them about as quickly with the change, all it's really doing is making them much harder to kill with stuff like HBs or standard Bolters.

[Inst]

Changed my mind, slugga shoota changes are a great idea, but just don't make the differentiation too harsh, people should use slugga nob heavy weapons squads based on preference. Slugga rokkits are supposed to be an alternative to tankbusta rokkits, where the nob provides a shield of heavy infantry armor if the situation causes the shredding of light infantry.
I concur completely with your morale changes to tankbustas, but they also need to have their melee weapons affected by upgrades. Trukk medium armor

[The_Scientist]

Well, as for complaints about scoutrushing, they're reduced to 3 man, and that really smarts for sm early game...if u don't understand and still think it's possible to scout rush, i've nothing to say. As for sergeants...well, this is a mod influenced by a large group of top players...having been asked to weigh in myself, I think a serg buff is welcome. Aspiring champions added berserk fury, nob leaders are...well, nl's, and exarchs do their job, wheareas sergeants just weren't very good...

NOW. before you argue with me, go watch all the pro replays, and tell me how many times u see sergeants. At least I do'nt build them, and fear doesn't.

Altho assault marine serges are key...anyways, it's all still to be played people, simmer down and observe the comedy of dow revamp in progress.

[Krenshaw]

I think we all need to remember this is simply an Alpha, maybe things will make more sense when the bigger picture comes out (next alpha or hitting beta status)

[Inst]

Is weird, but okay. Trakk rokkits need a damage buff, and killa kans should be affected by range damage upgrades. I agree wholeheartedly with your looted leman russ build changes, but the weapons nerf seems superfluous, they're supposed to be infantry disrupting meatshields, except that they build too slow. An ork fire prism sans anti vehicle ability.

[GRIM Ripper]

i agree the sergeant/champion buff is unecessary. nob leaders only outlast their ork squads bc unlike just about every other primary infantry unit in the game (marines and aspect warriors mainly), standard ork infantry have dirt for HP. i really dont like the idea of 900 HP (w/both bionics) infantry_heavy_high leaders running around shrugging off small arms fire. it also makes them much tougher in melee, where sluggas, stormboyz and banshees for ex have a harder time killing infantry_heavy_high.

while i like a lot of the balance fixes, some of the other stuff i dont really like -- its great for a mod, but not actually for "the new balance." id prefer just basic changes to 1.3, like the megalblaster fix, traks moved back, defiler and sorceror nerfs, whirlwinds cheaper, slight warp spider nerf etc.

[Korbah]

Guys the sarg/champs are far from finished - they're a placeholder fix just to give me an idea of how they'd perform.

Defilers are far from done - and the ork vs sm will see the most attention before I tackle any other major matchups.

Eldar tweaking will come last since as the counter race it makes sense to balance them last since they're a reactive race rather than proactive.

There's heaps of stuff far from done.......a whole race + 1000's of tweaks. I'm going to keep releasing tweaks and fixing units as I see fit.....I don't pretend that things are balanced atm --> they're not. What is better is that DoWpro is much more fun to play.

Do you seriously think anyone could balance Dow in 3 days? The fact that I've made gameplay better imho is an achievement in itself - be patient....i'm working hard on making it DoWpro the best option for DOW --> but its day 3. 1.3 took 5 months....maybe DoWpro will too --> the difference is that you'll get every build in between to try out.

You'll be seeing imba as I trial things. Think of yourselves as my balance team as we work towards a better DOW.

[Dhaeman]

I think this is great. I've only been playing DoW since a couple weeks before 1.3 came out but there are some imbalances that have just been glaring. I'll be downloading the pro versions to give them a try. The only comment I have is that it will be easier to balance if you start out with less. As it stands right now, you're trying to change the whole scope of the game. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, you're introducing more and more variables that will make the game longer and harder to balance. On the other hand, if you perfected fewer things at a time you'll have a better idea of what works and what doesn't when you introduce something new (as opposed to just adjusting stats).

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Do you seriously think anyone could balance Dow in 3 days? The fact that I've made gameplay better imho is an achievement in itself - be patient....i'm working hard on making it DoWpro the best option for DOW --> but its day 3. 1.3 took 5 months....maybe DoWpro will too --> the difference is that you'll get every build in between to try out.No, but having done this before I think the least we can expect is a general explanation of what each change is for. I did this way back in the early days of my mod, even on first release which was far less complete than this.

And if you can't, why put a thread up? You're inviting discussion with one hand, and refusing it with the other.

[admiral_the]

I think it's a great idea to have a patch done by the pro players.

Keep up the good work and if it works hopefully relic will take notice.

[Korbah]

Ok quickly...sarg/champ/nobz are all getting redone. The sarg n champ changes were placeholders.

In 1.316:
Sarg/champ now 450hp inf_hvy_high, I've also redone every single dps for each sarg weapon by hand (hopefully no mistakes) --> they're now a good damage unit (if inferior to nobz pure dmg and hp) but low hp makes vulnerable to direct counter weapons.

Basic choppas/shootas are going to be improved...just not from the start. Since in post tier1 i figured it was lame that u only got sluggas to get nobz I'm trying a change that makes sluggas good in themselves. This change will also affect sm/csm plasma mass.

My stated goal is to promote variety and micro. The next build you'll see a definite shift from "must have" units to oooh nice but must consider cost/benefit more - this is what this mod is about, promoting gameplay by rewarding micro in races other than eldar (don't worry eldar will now give u the ability to take micro to untold levels for u micro junkies out there...) whilst also rewarding tactical and strategic thought. No longer will nobz be an automatic decision - yes they're good but there'll be more of a cost/benefit approach with them and all units.

Atm chaos is very underdone....focus more on sm n orks since that's what will be balanced first.

[aqwerty]

when will u finish eldar?
>: (

[Korbah]

I've finished the planning...just need my modding pal Nap/Omylol to do the coding for me (I'm rather noob at using the tools....i'm the planner he's the coder).

I also have completed the 1.316 ork vs sm changes - some really exciting changes to decrease the imba and OP units.

[aqwerty]

thx for all your help korbah,omylol :D
did u already plan what to do with fof?
i hope not moving it to ss or other timing things :(

[Korbah]

FoF will see some tweaking....nothing too drastic though --> all that's needed is a slight slowdown of eldar early game and ubernerfing FoF is too much.

I've got a combo of slight nerfs that should do the job nicely.

[Inst]

That wasn't what sarg was supposed to be, sergeants were supposed to be meatshields for your Rockets/Plasmas/HBs. They're not designed as "mini nob leaders".



My stated goal is to promote variety and micro. The next build you'll see a definite shift from "must have" units to oooh nice but must consider cost/benefit more - this is what this mod is about, promoting gameplay by rewarding micro in races other than eldar (don't worry eldar will now give u the ability to take micro to untold levels for u micro junkies out there...) whilst also rewarding tactical and strategic thought. No longer will nobz be an automatic decision - yes they're good but there'll be more of a cost/benefit approach with them and all units.

Okay, then DoW isn't exactly the right game anymore, is it? The most important part of any balance patch is to preserve the flavor of DoW, DoW doesn't exactly have to be vanilla marines warring with vanillarines to be balanced, there are a thousand ways for DoW to be balanced, but maybe only ten ways maintain the flavor of DoW.

[Korbah]

they're not "mini-nobz"...they're inferior at CC/shooting for cost --> they're support units for your squad with useful abilities beserk/rally that make your squads better.

In 1.2/1.3 that meant meatshield...that's it. The ps/pf upgrades were near worthless and basic damage was uninspired - I'm aiming for powerklaws/powerfists to act as another infantry counter to vehicles with rocket like dps.

Again expanding gameplay options and removing the disparity between vehicles n inf whilst making the upgrades worth bothering with.

I see this mod as not so much as "preserving" the flavour of dow as developing the flavour.

[aqwerty]

"No, but having done this before I think the least we can expect is a general explanation of what each change is for. I did this way back in the early days of my mod, even on first release which was far less complete than this.

And if you can't, why put a thread up? You're inviting discussion with one hand, and refusing it with the other."

u should thank him for giving u the mod b4 its done
did relic gave u any explanation?
this mod is far better then yours so plz...

korbah:

when relic sow a op strat they simply overnerfed it and make it unusefull i hope you will not do the same with eldar guard rush and other op things ^^

[Inst]

as developing the flavor, Oh wait, you already said the "patch" was a mod. So why ask Relic to support it? You're basically trying to make DoW into the game you want it to be, not the game that was designed by Relic. So is it still DoW? It uses the same models, and the gameplay is similar...

To be honest, I agree, DoW has problems with unit diversity and strong counters...

only infantry can strongly counter infantry, except for broken vehicles(defiler, fire prism), and it's so difficult to get the game into the lategame phase.... it's just early game, fast tech, and so on, no one ever sees tier 3.

[savagedave]

this mod is far better then yours so plz..

Did you play it?

[aqwerty]

this one, yes...
the mod noze made i never sow and dont even want to see, this mod has been made by pro players, so its much better to play it then his mode

[OjKa]

I am sure this thread has got some gay whining which is why i only read the 1st page (and a bit of the second! :moose: ) but i played this mod and you know what it did? It gave me some fun for playing this game. No more bullshit losing to imba on automatch or even playing eldar 99% of the time. This mod is fun, and hell it is a lot more balanced than any patch retarded relic have put out.
When playing this mod i had to think, stratagise and i had the ability to omfg get out some different units than the same ones every game. Termies are so sexy in 1v1, rhinos saving your marine's ass and trax delivering a batch of Nobz in your face. This mod is great now have some damn smilies
:joy: :sneaky: :baloons:

[mlai]

This is a mod NOT a patch.

It's not official so it is never a patch. Even if all Korbah did was change 1 digit in 1 attribute of 1 unit, it's still a mod NOT a patch.

All this whining about "this is a mod that changes DOW flavor" makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Exactly who is to determine what "DOW flavor" is??? Anyone can just spend a few hours to clean up the remaining bugs and the most obvious IMBA. I can do that myself I don't need Korbah. Korbah is taking his time and consulting experienced players so that he can do something more, and yeah that means something different. You like 1.3 so much keep playing it, hey it's official!

[TBS]

mlai: the intention of this mod, and the reason its here and not in the mod forum, is to correct perceived imbalances in the 1.3 version of DoW. Korbah himself stated his intention to petition Relic with it so they could implement some, if not all, of his changes. As such it is vitally important that he keeps to the general flavour of DoW and sticks to basic changes to stats wherever possible (change pop caps by +/-1, tweak DPS, tweak hitpoints, tweak costs etc) or he will have no chance of succeeding in his aim to get the mod accepted and implemented as an official patch.

[mlai]

@ TBS:

I think that was Korbah's initial intention, but this "patch" has since become a runaway mod and shows no signs of slowing.

If you read Korbah talking about it on DowSanc and here, you can tell he is unapologetic about this goal change, in fact he's excited as a schoolgirl. There's no chance that this mod will stick to just tweaks and bug fixes. I doubt if he even cares anymore whether Relic looks at it, because at its current progression Relic certainly won't. (Termies and Nob squads at T2... yeah that'll fly with Relic.)

If Korbah just comes out and makes a clear proclamation that this mod no longer has aspirations to become official, I think that'll quiet a lot of gripes.

BTW, I agree with you 100% on exactly what needs to be done with Defiler. Ppl trying to make its fix too complicated.

[santiago4ever]

Sorry TBS but that's bullshit.

What this mod does is change units drastically to get rid of the 'This unit isn't used cause frankly it BLOWS ASS. I will build this unit instead because it is good for any situation, who needs to scout enemy army to see what he is doing. Cause I know this can counter whatever it is.' gameplay that is going on.

1.2-1.3:

* Orks were reduced to a very limited amount of strats. There are different builds for those strats but basically it's all "OMG I need NLs or I'm screwed", all modified with MDs or BS or similair.

* Chaos lost about half their viable strats and got... well pretty much no new things to aim for. In exchange they got a very broken unit and "OMG I need tier 2 and sorc/defiler spam".

* SM, well what to say about SM... ASM build still works rather well against chaos... otherwise not that hot anymore. They never had much diversity in their unit choices as it was... Biggest choice they had to make was lib/apoth/WoTE or vehicles... which is pretty much decided by what opponent you are up against.

* Eldar still has a lot of workable strat, altough only a few are used because of freakishly OPed units and strats "OMG looks it's a C/SM player... If I let him live past minute 5 it might get tricky... Lets go all out guardrush on him" "oooh orksies/Eldar... well, guess I'll just spam WS... god knows everyone else does"

Promod:

Effectively adds to the amount of different viable builds. Sure a 1.31 mod could be made easily which fixed the imbalances with 1.3. But there would still be just a limited amount of viable strats for the different races. This requires some radical changes, and if relic doesn't want to look at them then that's their loss. There is like a 0.000% chance of them actually implementing a player made patchmod anyway.

[Tiresias]

you make it seem like Korbah is some power crazy megolomaniac (which may be true I suppose ;) )

[TBS]

Im not saying major changes are a bad thing - Im saying major changes wont get the mod taken up and released as an official patch.

[AVD]

Given the fact how inflexible Relic is when it comes to patches in general (the price expressed in hard currency) it is somewhat of a daydream if somebody thinks that Relic will drop the balance done so far in preparation for WA and implement so many changes as introduced by Korbah et al. They wouldn't risk implementing even half of them. Maybe not more than 3 actually.

I tried his mod - I enjoyed it. This guy is doing this for free - unlike Relic he did not get your money. I really don't understand people going over their heads getting angry with the guy as if he owes them something. As with all mods - take it or leave it. If the guy wants to take his mod further away from DoW - why not - he is spending his time, not mine, not yours - who am I to tell him how to do it. I can make suggestions and ask questions - demands, errr - no, I don't think so.

I personally agree with more of the changes than the ones I don't. This is Alpha for crying out loud, and it plays mighty well for an Alpha at that. I can only hope work on this mod will continue even beyond WA. I personally wouldn't mind having two separate DoW worlds - Relic's and Korbah's - it's just a switch away in the Mod manager.

[Edit] Just wanted to give an idea of what I had in mind - the first Halflife even though a great game was more or less forgotten but a mod for that game became even more famous than its parent, the mod being embraced by the company that made the original game after the craze around it. I don't mind mods that are different, as long as they are good, or for the simple minded out there - as long as the dish in front of me is delicios, I don't care what they put in it (provided I survive it).

[Edit2] Another interesting question - why EXACTLY do people insist on this being embraced by Relic? I can choose myself whether to use the mod or not - I have even more options. Can I use the mod online? Can I use it for LAN parties? Can I use it offline? Can others do the same if they like to? Yes. And would we want to have this mod implemented and supported officially as this would mean that it will inevitably jump on the 3+ month update train? As long as Korbah or others are willing to support it actively and listen to intelligent remarks with arguments supporting them, then this would mean that we will receive much more timely responses and fixes, from the people that are directly involved with it, the ones that actually play it, not a faceless balance team we know nothing about (one that is capable of producing something like the current Defiler). Anyway - just thinking out loud here.

[OjKa]

You tell 'em sis
:banana:

[TBS]

AVD: I think the reason that people would like to see the mod made official is that these are self proclaimed "pro" players we're talking about, their ladder ranking is important to them. If the mod was kept for peoples personal use then they wouldnt be able to use it to compete on the ladder or in any official tournements (WCG etc).

[savagedave]

the mod noze made i never sow and dont even want to see, this mod has been made by pro players, so its much better to play it then his mode

Well if you haven't played Noz'd mod your in no position to judge it then. Anyway, I think everyone's getting a little too heated over this. Try it, if you like it, good, if not, stick with 1.3, equally good. I intend to keep playing both, and enjoy both. Now, to find a pointless smiley, and this post is done....

:couch:

Ah! That does the business very nicely.

[AVD]

@ TBS

Good point, didn't think about the ladder. Honestly speaking I personally don't care about it - I don't want to care about my ladder score more than my desire to have fun, even if beaten whilst having such. Personal preference by all means.

I personally am interested in a fun, challenging game, supported on a regular basis (regular in the sense of frequent, as 5 month patch periods could also be perceived as regular by some). I personally will profit more if this mod is supported independently, thus obviously much more dynamically.

[TBS]

I, personally, agree with your view on things - the game is ultimately about fun. However, I can see that balance is good for the community in that it keeps the pro players happy (pro players arent as important as they'd like to think but they do matter) so I would like to see this mod try and remain realistic in its changes so it can achieve something that is both feasible for relic to implement and which the majority of the community can agree with.

I feel that, for example, moving termies to tier 2 is too much of a change and they should try to concentrate on smaller tweaks to achieve balance.

[Stefan]

i agree with TBS, though i do like seeing more viable builds. So long as it sticks with the flavour of the game, and isent overly complicated. well i suppose we'll see if they can get it to work.

[komninosm]

Are mines too cheap at 50/35 or balanced?
How about if you keep them at 50/50 but make them repairable (which still costs money unless you changed the repair costs).

[savagedave]

I think the lower cost is better, because mines tend to be needed early if your gonna use them at all, when power is scarce. 50 power is a lot to shell out early if your trying to protect a tech strat.

[Korbah]

My intention so there is no misunderstandings is to finish and balance the mod as I see fit....I'll obviously be taking suggestions and feedback as we go along.

Once complete I'll petition relic with it - they'll then have the opportunity to support DoWpro or not to or implement some of its changes.

Ultimately DoWpro will remain true to the original goals of realising the true gameplay potential of DOW....I'm not going to limit my creativity and effort to pander to the perceived notion that relic won't accept anything other than minor tweaks.

AFAIK relic hasn't made any offer ever to accept any kind of balance mod so I'm not staking any hopes that this will be any different. It'll be offered to relic once its done and it's then relic's call.

Guys stay tuned for 1.316 --> much tighter balance of Sm vs ork matchup (eta today or tomorrow). 1.317 will be eldar (by sunday). 1.318 will be eldar imba nerfs and chaos in depth rebalance + sm n ork minor tweaks. 1.319 will be eldar in depth balance. 1.32 will be continued tweaking.

I have a plan of attack - its methodical and logical and will systematically introduce the new changes and tweaks to increase balance and gameplay.

Stay tuned.

[Sps]

1.317 will be eldar (by sunday). 1.318 will be eldar imba nerfs

so you - beforehand - preclude any possibility of eldar needing buffs?

Having played this and seen the huge anti-eldar bias some of which i dont even think you realise is in place. Not very suprised.

But keep at it - maybe it turns out good.

[Korbah]

1.318 is to nerf eldar imba brought about by MY changes --> there are unforseen changes with using existing units ie. the terminator AC at T2 is simply OP and required an unforseen nerf.

I'd like to state I have no bias other than against imba to whom I shall show extreme predjudice.

[The_Scientist]

ah, sps comes to defend his eldar before they've even been touched loller.

Guys, guys, there are many faces behind this mod, it's not just "korbah t3h chaos lord" making this. Sure he's facilitating the new changes and keeping reigns on the whole thing, but realize that making a race underpowered defeats the purpose of the mod *smacks head*.

Try to look beyond races, balance, etc. Look at the goal for the end result.

"DoWpro" - not misleading you anywhere period.

korbah/pro community is shaping a fun balance/mod/whatever u want to call it, so people will get the fuck off their asses and other boring things they've been relegated to do, and come back to the DoW they miss. And umm, no shit many pro players are eldar (unless u live under a rock...but then again most of us do, just in fear of guard rush :P).

So before people start giving attitude, bear in mind the likelihood of you being FORCED to play DoWpro is nil. If you're fine with 1.3, then by all means go play DoW in your corner. People who want to contribute, or discuss...well, that's what I would hope this thread is for.

Bottom line - If he kills a race, people won't play. Simple as that. I mean fuck kids, not everyone's as dumb as the average DoW lobbyer. Korbah's intentions of petition relic are (imo) just showing this is a serious balance mod. Serious means playable. Serious means 4 races.

It's a pro-bono relic. If something's imbalanced, expect rag-tag changes in the next 24 hours. You people forget that korbah's jumping up and down over this, and it's not like he'll go afk for 5 months then pop us another ugly surprise. It'll be on the front door the next morning for us to try out.

[santiago4ever]

there has been imba nerfs for the other races, like terms AC and sarge/AC nerfs... don't think eldar will be an exception... especially with some of the changes korbah has planned for them ^.^

[frenchjesus]

Sergeant buff and termies must go imo. Imba and too hard to balance if deeply changed.

[Korbah]

check out 1.316 then shees.....guys balancing takes time.

DoWpro 1.316 is incoming....here's the changelog to tide you over for 10mins.
EDIT: soz for confused format...ms word's pretty boxes don't work. The first number after armour type is DPS, the second is AP --> you need only worry about DPS.

DoWpro 1.316 Changelog

Space Marines:

Hvy weapons upgrade: restored to 75/75

Hero HP upgrades: build/research 15% faster

Sarg/Assault Sarg: 450hp tp_infantry_heavy_high

SM: - increase moving accuracy from .3 to .35 with basic bolters

SM Rockets – 1.3 damage except vehicle_high = 19.5dps

Sarg Bolt Pistol/assault sarg dps:
Max damage = 39.000000 Min damage = 31.000000 Reload = 0.8 Acc = .85
AP
tp_building_high 4 10.7563
tp_building_med 4.5 12.1008
tp_building_low 12.6 33.8824

tp_vehicle_high 2.7 7.2605
tp_vehicle_med 3.5 9.41176
tp_vehicle_low 6 16.1345

tp_commander 7.25 19.4958
tp_monster_high 3 8.06723
tp_monster_med 16 43.0252

tp_infantry_high 16 43.0252
tp_infantry_med 19 51.0924
tp_infantry_low 15.2 40.8739

tp_infantry_heavy_high 14.5 38.9916
tp_infantry_heavy_med 16 43.0252

Sarg/assault sarg Plasma:
Max damage = 78.884987 Min damage = 64.268997 Reload = 1 Acc = .65


tp_building_high 5 10.7469
tp_building_med 6 12.8963
tp_building_low 15 32.2407

tp_vehicle_high 3.5 7.52283
tp_vehicle_med 5.5 11.8216
tp_vehicle_low 8.5 18.2697

tp_commander 8.5 18.2697
tp_monster_high 6 12.8963
tp_monster_med 24 51.5851

tp_infantry_high 19 40.8382
tp_infantry_med 21 45.137
tp_infantry_low 17 36.5395

tp_infantry_heavy_high 17 36.5395
tp_infantry_heavy_med 23 49.4357


Sarg Chainsword:

Max damage = 54.596001 Min damage = 43.943001 Reload = 0.75 Acc = .65


tp_building_high 5 11.7095
tp_building_med 6 14.0514
tp_building_low 18 42.1543

tp_vehicle_high 3.5 8.19668
tp_vehicle_med 4.5 10.5386
tp_vehicle_low 6 14.0514

tp_commander 10 23.4191
tp_monster_high 3.5 8.19668
tp_monster_med 24 56.2058

tp_infantry_high 24 56.2058
tp_infantry_med 30 70.2572
tp_infantry_low 18 42.1543

tp_infantry_heavy_high 22 51.522
tp_infantry_heavy_med 28 65.5734

Sarg/assault sarg Powersword:

Max damage = 78.327003 Min damage = 64.903999 Reload = 1 Acc = .65


tp_building_high 5 10.7411
tp_building_med 6 12.8893
tp_building_low 18 38.668

tp_vehicle_high 4 8.5929
tp_vehicle_med 6 12.8893
tp_vehicle_low 10 21.4822

tp_commander 13 27.9269
tp_monster_high 4 8.5929
tp_monster_med 30 64.4467

tp_infantry_high 32 68.7432
tp_infantry_med 36 77.3361
tp_infantry_low 28 60.1503

tp_infantry_heavy_high 25 53.7056
tp_infantry_heavy_med 32 68.7432


Sarg/assault sarg Powerfist:

Max damage = 198.317993 Min damage = 162.259995 Reload = 2 Acc = .65

tp_building_high 8.3 8.53331
tp_building_med 15.4 10.24
tp_building_low 35.1 30.7199

tp_vehicle_high 16.1 6.82665
tp_vehicle_med 19.89 10.24
tp_vehicle_low 24.3 17.0666

tp_commander 20.1 22.1866
tp_monster_high 4 6.82665
tp_monster_med 30 51.1998

tp_infantry_high 35.4 54.6132
tp_infantry_med 49.15 61.4398
tp_infantry_low 31.93 47.7865

tp_infantry_heavy_high 32.8 42.6665
tp_infantry_heavy_med 42.5 54.6132


SM Plasma: - moving acc 0.3

Max damage = 42.307999 Min damage = 34.615002 Reload = .5 Acc = .65

tp_building_high 3.25 6.50001
tp_building_med 3.25 6.50001
tp_building_low 10 20

tp_vehicle_high 3.25 6.50001
tp_vehicle_med 3.25 6.50001
tp_vehicle_low 7.56 15.12

tp_commander 13.8 27.6
tp_monster_high 3.25 6.50001
tp_monster_med 37.3 74.6001

tp_infantry_high 13.8 27.6
tp_infantry_med 18.8 37.6
tp_infantry_low 16.8 33.6

tp_infantry_heavy_high 28.2 56.4001
tp_infantry_heavy_med 33.1 66.2001



Scout plasma: - moving acc 0.25

Max damage = 29.615000 Min damage = 24.231001 Reload = .5 Acc = .65

tp_building_high 3.25 9.28574
tp_building_med 3.25 9.28574
tp_building_low 9 25.7144

tp_vehicle_high 3.25 9.28574
tp_vehicle_med 3.25 9.28574
tp_vehicle_low 5.45 15.5715

tp_commander 12.5 35.7144
tp_monster_high 3.25 9.28574
tp_monster_med 33.3 95.1431

tp_infantry_high 12.2 34.8572
tp_infantry_med 19.5 55.7144
tp_infantry_low 15.1 43.143

tp_infantry_heavy_high 25.4 72.5716
tp_infantry_heavy_med 32.6 93.1431

Terminator AC: - now requires relic only

Max damage = 35.000000 Min damage = 25.000000 Reload = .2 Acc = .65

tp_building_high 7.1 7.28205
tp_building_med 9.9 10.1538
tp_building_low 29.8 30.5641

tp_vehicle_high 7.29 7.47692
tp_vehicle_med 14.1 14.4615
tp_vehicle_low 19.9 20.4103

tp_commander 19.5 20
tp_monster_high 7.29 7.47692
tp_monster_med 49.5 50.7692

tp_infantry_high 59.5 61.0256
tp_infantry_med 79.3 81.3333
tp_infantry_low 15.1 15.4872

tp_infantry_heavy_high 50 51.2821
tp_infantry_heavy_med 61.2 62.7692


Orks:

Choppy, More choppy, Armour, More Armour, Dakka, More Dakka – give sluggas and shoota boyz 25% boost instead of 20%.

First choppy/armour/dakka upgrades build 20% faster. 2nd build 15% faster.

Nob leaders – 750HP of hvy_med inf armour. Increased reinforce speed from 25 to 29secs.

Hero HP upgrades built 15% faster

Burna upgrades – now affect morale damage instead of regular damage.

Storm boyz – Do not get additional choppy boost of 25% etc…just standard 20%. Nob leader does not get klaw upgrade until orky fort built. Bug fixed where adding nob breaks speed boost upgrade.

Stikkbomb – improved projectile speed to increase accuracy…still inferior to other 3 races but better.

Tb’s – remove 5% basic accuracy boost. Decrease rokkit build time by 10%. Dps to vehicle_high is now 13.96dps. Stikkbomb CC dps to building low/med/high now 11/7/3.5 respectively.

Nob squad restored to T3/post orky fort at this stage pending the performance of the ork tweaks.

Warboss: 425/150 upped to 72sec build

[Deen]

Are you making sarges better than Nob Leaders then?

[Sps]

Scientist he invited discussion when he started this thread. I didn't come to defend "my precious eldar" I offered an opinion and frankly I couldn't care less what you think about me doing so. And I know i don't have to play this, which I wont in this state. But I would rather prefer Korbah is successful in his goals as I believe they are correct ones.

As for unforseen changes, I believe Korbah's stated goals were to prevent massing and balance the game while opening it up, having played this - he failed or rather is failing.

Now, i don't blame him for this as I share his belief on those goals, but nobody on earth could fix that - people will always, and I repeat always mass the unit that is the most potent, for least amount of money/power.

And finally this mod completely ignores teamplay enviroment, it is 100% 1v1 centered.

Some of his goals are achieveable by artificialy forcing the player to build a variety but that will negate the third goal, which for all intent can be considered mutualy exclusive.

And I don't think anyone needs a buffed reaper which is balanced as is to deal with terminators being moved to t2.

korbah: Realise this, the fact landraiders, terms etc are rarely seen in 1v has nothing to do with their accessibility it has everything to do with the way "pro" players play, as well as the fact that hey - map is limited space, once you gain upper hand there is nothing preventing you from ending the game. This is not an FPS where you can hide behind a wall or run off for a health pack/weapon. You lose an engagement in any semi-decisve way - you lose the game more often than not. And no skilled player will wait till tier 3 with his assault. bringing tier 3 units forward is not a solution at all.

you want to open up the game?

Look into the excelent work done by Compiler and his rhinoz mod. Look to the veterans mod, and then do the same for ork/eldar/csm. If you wish I can give you a retextured/and fully coded antivehicle horror - not fluffy (I think) but it opens up chaos demon build with no compromise to AT capabilities as that horror is pretty much a lazcannon in a box (balanced for tier 2) and designed to allow chaos to respond to a vehicle quickly but not be able to rely on that - just time to get missiles. (For an eldar player i sure am concerned with chaos metagame - so much for your implied theories scientist.)

You would do better filling in the gaps with units designed and balanced around those gaps, rather than reworking existing ones and creating new gaps if they should be balanced to begin with. In some cases it will work, in most it wont.

[Korbah]

Sarg with these stats are inferior to nobz - substantially so in CC.

As for "failing" my stated goals Sps you haven't seen nor tried the latest build's effect on the ork vs sm matchup.

[frenchjesus]

I tend to agree with Sps here. Undersused doesnt not mean always underpowered, even in Starcraft battlecruisers/dark archons/carriers were almost never used in 1vs1 but never considered UP.

[Sterling]

Sps is just afraid that Eldar's blatant IMBA might actually be corrected.

[Korbah]

Then he fears rightly....certain aspects of eldar will be drastically changed --> and FoF isn't really one of em

[Sps]

sterling i point you to my mod people found agreeable - it completely overhauls eldar. Nerfs spiders in a big way as well as fof. So with all due respect be quiet you= clueless about me or my intentions.

Korbah has a very good idea I am simply debating some of the directions he is goign in.

And come to think of it the attitude of a legitimate and valid point being unbiased in its entirety being moved to, "another eldar llama whining", speaks volumes about the ability of such people to "balance" eldar or offer a constructive idea regarding that balancing.

[santiago4ever]

completely ignores teamplay? If you mean completely ignore Quickstart games then yes I think you might be right, but any game balanced in 1v1 will be balanced in teamgames as well. You will not have a magical influx of resources in most teamgames. And units will perform the same in teamgames as in 1v1.

[Sps]

Santiago you know, just as well as i do, that in a shared req 2v automatch setting timing of a unit is reduced and racial diferences - especially unit timings, come into serious play. And im sorry but it does not go both ways as it is not simply a "scaled version of 1v1".

Also please don't insinuate quickstart games you know damn well I don't play those.

Take wraithtomb for example - a simple research - it is timed in such a way as to guarantee enemy will be able to get a squad out to counter it. If you say, for whatever reason reduce its research by 10 seconds or 5 even you open up a whole can of worms and an imbalance.

to extend the analogy, bringing tier 3 units into tier 2 means having to rebalance them completely and the effects are much larger than a simple - "ok lets screw his buildings" research in my example. if you get the analogy you will get exactly what I mean.

Very simple point. I am refering to the underlying gameplay not unit(s) itself.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Personally, I'm really sick of people ragging on Sps. You guys seem to always assume the worst. Case in Point, The_Scientist's statement about his Post:

"so you - beforehand - preclude any possibility of eldar needing buffs?"

He makes no mentions about Eldar not needing some nerfs, merely brings about the point that some elements of them need buffs as well. He makes one tiny misinterpretation, and a bunch of guys jump all over it.

Cut it out. It's unbecoming of a mature person.

[Sterling]

Except that Sps constantly rails loudly and at length against any proposed Eldar nerf. While doesn't go so far as to claim they're underpowered, he also seems to want to deny that they're the most powerful race by far.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Irrelevant. His current post had nothing of the sort. All I saw was trolling on your part.

[Sps]

Sterling you are misinformed or a plain liar. I have just recently posted a thread with eldar overhaul ideas - and nobody seemed to find them overpowered or find me to "rail loudly and at length against any proposed Eldar nerf. ".


And yes I will claim here: Certain aspects of eldar are vastly underpowered. The fact that eldar has it easy and a greater number of overpowered units to hide that does not mean they are not there. And the fact that eldar metagame is a completely different game from dow also is irelevant in recognising that with bringing eldar inline with the rest of the races would mean a lot of nerfs but would also necessitate buffs.

You can bitch about objectivity and try to turn it into "bias" all you want it wont change anything. I posted the list of changes as I see them and the response was quite positive.

And yes thank you Jet, I always get the trolls - its my mouth I suppose. :)

(PS: let them rage tho I do my raging in game :bandit: )

[Heartcutter]

@ Korbah

Keep the attitude of being beholden to no-one. This is your mod. Do whatever you please. Have no fear in terms of changing ANY units.

I see criticism from people that haven't even played your mod. You have no need to defend yourself from their statements. The fact is that you're changing the game to your perception of balance, and in your mod your perception is the law.

My only recommendation is that you have some fun moving particular units/abilities around in the tech tree. That's where you'll make your biggest gains in terms of creating strategy.

To really, really make Orks play mass infantry in the late game, have some sort of cost reduction ability that comes from tier2/tier3.

Thanks for all your effort.

-HC

[Korbah]

ATM 1.316 can be found at DOWsanc

ITS HERE: DoWpro 1.316 revision B downloadable from

http://dow.sanctuary-network.com/index.php?showtopic=6560&st=240&p=57892&

(just in case you already have 1.316 redownload this one and overwrite....otherwise u'll get a sync error due to version differences)

[Inst]

Keep the attitude of being beholden to no-one. This is your mod. Do whatever you please. Have no fear in terms of changing ANY units.


Problem is, this "mod" is trying to be an official version.

[Korbah]

Huh? inst your comprehension skills are sadly lacking. I'm doing this because I choose to - yes I'll send a final release version to relic to see if they want to run with DoWpro --> but its unlikely they will.

Its most definately a secondary goal/off-side bonus, not the primary goal which is to improve overall balance and gameplay.

[Inst]

My fault, not reading the thread makes you teh 1337.

[Thog]

Problem is, this "mod" is trying to be an official version

Naaa. This Mod is like all other Mods "it" wants to be accepted as good, and if it is, it will be used.

If it is good enough it might be looked at for inspiration by those that make official patches .

[Inst]

probably not, because it's ignoring the original design plans. Still, looks interesting at least.

[Korbah]

Huh? dude i posted the original plans over ten days ago on the sanc private expert forums.....there's nary a stark departure from the original plans just more details like full dps and newer tweaks like term AC changes.

When I said I've planned this all out means I have...the fact you haven't seen the planning doesn't negate the fact that it has been done.

[Inst]

what is meant by original design plans is relic design plans.

[Chris]

The only problem is we don't truely know what the 'original design plans' are because Relic has never been very specific with how the game is 'supposed' to be played. We can only speculate on how they think each unit and race is supposed to work.

[Inst]

that's true. But wouldn't you say Korbah's mod is a radical departure... because it's a mod?

[|AXiN|]

Well, it's a radical departure from how you assume it's meant to be. I don't really see it as being that radical, but some stuff is looking a little that way, like moving around Termies. On the whole, though it just seems like rebalancing to find balanced gameplay, and to give the player more options and open up more strategies.

While the whole mod probably won't be accepted, people using the mod are, in effect, doing some of Relic's work for them - they're finding out what a fairly balanced set up is, with the formula of tweak, release, observe, tweak, release, observe, etc. Relic cannot release a string of beta patches to do the same, because (a) they have to get approval for each patch and (b) the concept of "It isn't done yet" seems to have a hard time sinking in here.

[Alpha_1]

While it is commendable korbah is trying to achieve a balancce in this mod, lets not lose sight of the fact that balance is an opinion and not a fact. That means one persons balance is anothers imbalance, therefore let the work be done, enjoy the work, but don't assume it is meant to match YOUR opinion of balance.

Simple concept really, give it a try guys.

[Korbah]

For those of you skeptical about the quality of the mod have a look at these two reps - Gerance(SM) vs Corpse (orks), some of the very best players around using the newly tweaked ork vs sm matchup.

http://dow.sanctuary-network.com/index.php?showtopic=6707

and

http://dow.sanctuary-network.com/index.php?showtopic=6706

There's very few occasions in which you'll see such comprehensively excellent matches in a row...and these were their first two goes using the mod.

[Sps]

saw them - so you brought trak rush back - gj.

Gotolose went with a gen/eco build and thus tier 2/ missiles in time - whats so excelent about that? No fighting - half arsed ork harras and dead trakks.

Sorry but I actually went and downloaded this and the mod expecting "excelent" game you promoted. I've seen far, far superior games in old patches.

[Korbah]

Trak rush? you've got to be kidding....at 8+mins which was when the earliest vehicle came out

--> you could reasonably expect a chaos pred if you were doing an all out tech build.

Did you not notice the varied use of wargear? the increased use of boyz? the depth and choice offered in the gameplay?

[AVD]

Korbah,

One request, not all of us have accounts at Dow Sanctuary. Isn't there a possibility to have the mod downloadable at a generally more accessible place online? Or torrented for example?

[Moe]

Korbah: if you want to offer a bittorrent download PM me, I can set up a tracker for you on hwcommunity.

[|AXiN|]

With a big thanks to Moe, we now present the BitTorrent link:

http://hwcommunity.com/tracker/torrents/DoWpro(1316).rar.torrent

Enjoy.

[Sps]

To clarify Korbah, maybe the use of the word rush is a bad choice as yes those trakks came a bit late, and had Ork gone for more boyz/heavy weapons instead of the vehicles he might have dented the SM. I used rush because ork kept a very very small force to tech to trakks which is what trakk rush used to be. Your goals may have been achieved in that the game allows for what you want and players simply don't and wont play like that - which is what I suggested to you earlier.

The point remains its no different than any other sm vs ork matchup on meeting.

cap and lp
Ork harrases
Ork retreats
HB/flamers to tier 2 and missiles
Ork comes back with trakks and some NL in the squads
Ork dies.

Aside from nice moves on Sm part especially in keeping the generator alive and the serv repairing it alive at same time, this game had nothing in it than 1.2 and even 1.3 replayes don't have.

The varied use of troops and open game you speak of again, it played out exactly as any other sm v ork on meeting of minds with the exception ork usually trakked the sm to death (1.2), and that didn't happen here.

You said you wanted to create an exciting open gameplay with varied option possible and more variety and less massing. I as an impartial observer who would prefer you succeed am telling you, I don't see it.

The only exception being stom boyz, but then again I now see them used often in regular 1.3.

As for rest I encourage anyone to go download it as it is a small DL, and make their own minds up, what I have outlined is my own perception of the replays as feedback to Korbah, and other people may find them to be good games.

[Sterling]

Brilliant, Sps. So you somehow expect it to change the basic pattern of the game from:

Cap
Raid
Beat Back
Tech
Counterattack
Win

?

[Sps]

Yes sterling I do but you have already proven too "brilliant" to grasp the concept of opening up gameplay.

Ever seen an eldar mirror where ALL eldar units come into play and are utilized equally? I have acomplished it, having seen that I know what Korbah is trying to do and its a very good goal.

My description of the ork vs sm match up has nothing to do with basic gameplay you outlined, it has everything to do with how the match up played out.

[|AXiN|]

Obnoxiousness from third parties aside, Sps, he does have a point. I should also point out that for both of those players it was their first game of DoWpro, so they can hardly be expected to grossly deviate from strats they know work.

In those games, the things that stood out for me were the profusion of Slugga squads - normally a borderline unit other than as a NL meatshield, they actually did quite well, and the fact that the SM player did something more inventive than Lib/WoTE with teh Artifact. Small changes, I know, but Korbah isn't looking to completely reshape the way the game is played.

[Sps]

There is nothing more inventive in being able to get terminators from the artifact - unless you are refering to research which I didn't pay attention to as I was almost exclusively watching ork. Those flamers did ok but with marines ability to recover it fast next to useless.

How many more squads could have he gotten out if he didnt insist on vehicles? How much better would he have been at denting Sm economy had he gotten rokkits - epsecially for their knockdown so that when trukks/trakks come about missiles will be on their ass rather than owning the trukks. But again it seems ork will always insist on their vehicles and I will agree only in that its more how ork play than what korbah did.

[The_Scientist]

Jetmech - Personally, I'm really sick of people ragging on Sps. You guys seem to always assume the worst. Case in Point, The_Scientist's statement about his Post:

"so you - beforehand - preclude any possibility of eldar needing buffs?"



bla bla bla bla. As an eldar fanboi, of course you take my comment of 'precious eldar' too seriously, and I could frankly care less. I was merely pointing out, for comedic value or not, that it was about time sps arrived in style :P.

Anyways, the mod is influenced by "pros" whom are, like it or not, generally indicated by being top ladder players, altho not necessarily. And a glance at the ladder tends to indicate that a couple aspects of eldar are in need of change, or perhaps nerfing. You guys need to get out of your shells and realize that changes will be almost daily. This isn't relic. If eldar early game gets pared down to something that doens't own every other race other than itself, maybe we'll discover that eldar without a significant advantage early makes for an impossible midgame? It's irritating seeing you guys naysay, when u've f*ckall ever seen korbah do a mod.

When the guy says "ok it's done, no more changes ever kthxbye", and it's unbalanced, then u can whine. Simply assuming he's one of the dumbfucks who says "omg eldar i can't win nerf nerf", no matter how subtly it's done, is insulting. There are a lot of top eldar players whom will obviously have a voice in how eldar come out of this mod, and i'm sorry to say that...i trust them a lot more than most here...

w/e dude, it's more funny watching sps thank jet. *closes speech*

[Sps]

It is actualy funnier to watch you turn an actual discussion into a flame war with your complete and utter stupidity.


when u've f*ckall ever seen korbah do a mod

I have played every single version he put out and all my comments were geared towards one and one only aspect of his stated goals. Had you had any comprehension skills you would realise that. And frankly having put out a mod myself that significantly nerfs eldar throughout the game, you continuing to claim I'm an eldar fanboi is an insult alright, not to me as I am amuzed by such stupidity, but to everyone here trying to offer opinions on the mod as they see it.

You discredit only yourself by trying to somehow attack the character behind the argument, especially when such an attack in light of having been proven unfounded (via said nerfage of eldar I did) only paints you as a liar and a troll.

If he doesn't want opinions he should close the thread and go do something else.

[|AXiN|]

Cut it out, the both of you. The_Scientist, that was unwarranted, and frankly we'd all moved on. Sps, don't respond.

Now, Korbah has every intention of supporting this through to the WA release, at which point he'll re-evaluate. Obviously WA will be a big release and I think we can safely assume that it'll include a rebalancing of the non-IG armies. From what he told me, he's expecting about another four to six releases before it'll be stable and mature enough for Beta status, at which point we get down to the small changes and rebalances. No one race is intended to be favoured over another, which is why there is a small group, rather than an individual, working on this.

Eldar should be in the next release, Korbah spent today figuring out how he was going to handle them - some units will have their role changed or redirected somewhat, as with the other three races. With that release, it's on to tuning the combined matchups, with more of a focus on Chaos and Eldar than Marines and Orks, due to those two being closer to how they were envisioned by Korbah.

This mod is very much after your opinions - without feedback, this won't be able to progress properly - but at the same time this is not a request area, don't ask for stuff, just present problems and possible solutions, and only after having played the mod. This does seem to have sunk in fairly well, but I just thought I'd emphasise it.

With the BitTorrent up, and the download only weighing in at 414kb, you don't have any reason not to get it. Hell, that's probably as much download as new banners and badges for everyone in an 8-player match.

[The_Scientist]

I just pass by every now and then for the comedy.

And frankly with all that sadly formed opinions offered around rn with the exception of a few like sps, santi and maybe 3 or 4 others, i might well continue to do so.

And well, tis opinion sps. I've observed your ideas towards dow for a long time, and while it's not blatant anymore, and constant harping has tought u to curb it, it's still there, fueled by the idiocy that runs amuck (aka the people who would maim eldar). I'm just saying that korbah is out to make a completely playable, fun game, progressively and eventually. And for crying out loud, even if you played each iteration of the mod for 24 hours a day until the next update, it would hardly be enough time to evaluate it fully, let alone for one person.

Sure korb's is asking for it in releasing it step by step. Sure, u get the right to criticize and whine. And likewise I get to smack people around (jokingly) and laugh.

[Quitch]

Hey Korbah, fine looking mod you have here. What's really great is seeing attention paid to those units that are so rarely mentioned, like the Hellfire and the "they're fine, no one uses them, but they're really good! Terminators. I've been really disappointed in what Relic has to offer, so this looks pretty good. Hopefully it'll keep a crowd.

You're right you know, DoW is a fine looking game, dripping with atmosphere, but the tactics are so very very limited, you feel like the game is playin you. Glad to see you opening it out a bit more.

One suggestion I would like to make is for Orks. No one uses Killa Kans, they use squads of Nobz because Nobz are better. This needs resolving in some fashion. A suggestion I made once was to bring the Kans down a tier, but leave their Rockit upgrade at tier 3. Don't know if that would work, but it might encourage people to use them. I'm sure you can sort it out, but the Kans issue needs highlighting :)

As for Boyz, Orks should be Boyz heavy, but the only way that's every going to happen is if they're weaker (HPs weaker), cheaper and the pop cap increased more by each banner. Do that and you'll see the green horde, but that is a really big change.

[mlai]

I have an opinion on big changes vs small changes:

I think it's ok to tweak the metagame, such as making Termies come out earlier etc. But I think that stat changes to units themselves should be considered very carefully.

Ppl will develop great resistance to mods if you change the flavor of a familiar unit; players will lose touch and reject that automatically.

For example. Sps said he changed Guardian HPs in his Eldar mod. To be frank, I stopped reading immediately. Not saying he imba'ed anything. But he just changed something so fundamental, I don't have the motivation to adjust to it.

Ppl don't want to have to ditch all their strats and old knowledge like they're playing a new game. When they see a Guardian, they want to be reassured it's still the Guardian they know. BUT they would like to see new strats opened up on top of their old strats. Such as "Oh cool I can build Termies early and I know exactly what I'd like to do with them MUWAHAHAHA." And then, having to develop new strats on top of old strats and old knowledge becomes like fun, not like work.

Which is why I approve of your method of nerfing Tier 2 Termies. You nerf them in number and HW accessibility. That's easy to wrap your head around. A Termie is still a Termie.

But don't change a unit's basic stats, unless it blatantly begs for it (Defiler AC, Land Raider las, etc). When changing basic stats, KISS principle.

When you do decide to change a units basic stats, I think the best route to go is to fall within the range of 1.2 to 1.3. So the familiarity is still there. I think that's what you did with Chaos demon units, which is good. Ppl won't go "WTF I don't know how to use this now, this mod SUX."

Lastly, I suggest re-implementing researches that Relic took out of the game. For some of them, I have no idea why they'd take them out. Variety is the spice of life. You can always adjust the researches so they don't imba.

For example, I had put the PSM morale upgrade research in tier 3. One more reason to go end tier for Chaos (and boy do Chaos need reasons). And instead of buffing Oblits DPS straight up, I re-inserted the Chaos Accuracy upgrade research in tier 3, and majorly buffed Oblit weapons in it. So Oblits start out Relic-standard and sucky, but the player can buff them BY CHOICE. In this fashion I don't even have to mess with Oblit basic stats such as their pop cost. Ppl still know their Oblits but I balance them in a hidden circuitous way. [/deep thoughts]

[Quitch]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to call BS on that. I play(ed) DoW online, and I liked playing it, but if a mod had come out telling me that termies were now REAL termies, I'd have had it on my HD in a second. It's not changing something fundemental, it's fixing the blasted thing! DoW is Relic's interpretation of 40K, it isn't 40K though so a GUardian is a Guardian, but only in 40K. In DoW a Guardian is a unit with stats that can change and fluctuate as Relic see fit, and therefore as modders see fit. The name allows me to pidgeon hole it, but should they role change I simply move it in my mind.

I watched the replays posted and they were interesting (especially seeing the early termies) though Orks still seemed to be on the back foot, and were always outnumbered. Fixing the Orks so that they are really as Orks should be is an enormous job, and possibly outside the scope of your mod. If you take it on though, good luckto you :) It's sad to see such small bands of orks roaming around, especially considering these small bands rely on guns and vehicles of all things!

Something popped into my head that I'd forgotten about. People mention that Orks and many other close combat sides almost never hit a moving target, the reason being their damage timing is trying to match to that of their animation, so that by the time the animation is in "I hit you" phase, the target has moved on and the stroke misses. There's a setting for that, and it might be worth reducing it for units like Sluggas so they actually hit their targets once in the midst of them.

[mlai]

@ Quitch:

What I'm saying is, if you've used the same unit for 5 months (1.2), then someone unofficial comes along and changes so many of that unit's stats that it becomes completely dissimilar, what will be your reaction compared to another mod which also balances that unit without destroying your old knowledge? It doesn't really matter about the TT since that's a completely different game format, especially since these mods aren't trying to balance as per the TT (which would lessen resistance for TT players I agree).

Of course all that is just my opinion. But just by Termie-tier changes we already have ppl whining "this isn't DOW anymore." Imagine if more fundamental changes were made (I consider massive unit stat changes more fundamental to the human mind).

I don't think Ork animation changes are warranted. Brings me back to old Starcraft horrorshows. I do reflex micro... marine would run 10 feet away from an attacking Zerg... Zerg chomps at thin air... marine explodes... WTF.

I think the Ork CC thread had good ideas for CC vs Range.

[Deen]

*agrees with mlai*

[Korbah]

Guys I'm using several techniques to mod. There are unit pop/tier tweaking like termies. There are stats changes like term AC and sm plasma and the majority of eldar vehicles.

As for the ork problem of not being able to get into combat.....i think those games aren't representative of what the orks can do. Corpse played well but wasn't used to the changes.....unlike oryo's recent DoWpro matches. I'll get a rep up for u guys of oryo's wtfpwnage with orks - he makes them look imba.

Oh as an aside, I've noticed that some of the changelog tweaks weren't fully implemented....if u could all keep ure eyes open for incomplete/bugged changes that'd be a great help.

[Fitz]

Ladies, gentlemen and other genders, lets just see if we can't tone the sarcasm down a little. Also why not stick to comment / criticism of THE MOD, rather than picking over people's posting history or perceived hidden agendas. Play the mod, form an opinion and make rational and reasoned comment.

[Sps]

The reason for guardian HP change is. I know eldar inside and out now and the things that people complain about being overpowered are not overpowered in the slightest and some of the units role as intended are impossible as units are simply too weak - there is a reason why eldar went double aspect shee rush, or plain aspect mass, or guardian rush (if you follow my scouts from barracks analogy).

What IS making eldar overpowered is exactly what korbah did, putting units (and abilities) that should be later - forward.

Bear with me on this one, and think meta game.

Consider SM play:

First units accessed - (scout) good support unit, fast capper
Barracks - good bread and butter unit but only for a short time
Armory access to a more specialised unit (ASM as well as basic heavy weapons)
Tier 2 - leaders vehicles and the mainstay heavy weapons as well as hero abilities and upgrades
Tier 3 - uber units and full racial potential.

Now obviously guardians are nowhere near scouts role its the first thing thats wrong with eldar, ranger is more equal to scout, if anything guardians are closer to tacs and their performance clearly shows that. In sm terms - eldar builds tacs from HQ and scouts from barracks. See the problem?

So what i did is follow the Sm format of game as csm share it and to some degree ork as well - only eldar deviates:

First units accessed Ranger - good support unit, fast capper
Barracks aka Aspect - good bread and butter unit but only for a short time - guardians
Armory access to a more specialised unit (ASM as well as basic heavy weapons) - basic heavy weapons/abilities being guardians/fof/guardian tech - aspects are available here but not upgraded as armory is mostly busy with guardian tech as eldar is fighting by this time. And eldar still needs stones for those reapers/spiders

Tier 2 - leaders vehicles and the mainstay heavy weapons as well as hero abilities and upgrades - MFW from HQ/ exarchs after MFW as well as vehicles. Tying fof to exarchs also follows the meta game - sluggas useless without NL, marines easy to break without sarges etc.

Tier 3 - uber units and full racial potential. All eldar stones/Avatar/Full vehicle pop.

Eldar still follows a branching and flexible tech tree via stones. but the main meta game is now in line with all 3 other races. In essence guardians and guardian tech follow tacs and basic heavy weapons game role, aspects follow the t2 mainstay heavy weapons role. exarchs follow the squad leader and ability role.

And hence the only necessary deviation from "small changes are better". The only race needing such drastic overhaul is eldar. The other 3 are in line with eachother as is.

I was actually thinking of following the meta exactly and granting shees after shrine and reapers/aspects after mfw but I found it to bee pushing the balance the other way - units too late.

And having done this, this is exactly my argument re: terms for example - there is no need to do so, bringing them forward will only result in having to nerf them or buff other races tier 2 units which can potentially negate tier 3 terms altogether. Its a chiken and the egg problem, or translated - eldar problem atm.

I am sure most people wont understand this, or want to understand it, but this is also the main reason I defend eldar simply because trying to play them in a balanced way shows off just how completely fragile they are. So of course we play them as game promotes and own the other races hard. But that is not overpowered eldar. That is the fact eldar belongs in another game, and if you look at the moonwalks or the robot dance eldar do retargetting (watch reaper exarch its a LOLZ) as well as missing/basic animations - eldar was (seemingly) never finished to begin with.

My argument in short is: dont move too many things around, not with SM/CSM/Ork as they are following eachother perfectly, or else you risk creating another Eldar.

[AVD]

@ Sps

I hardly manage to disagree with even a single thing in your logic. I have to say I didn't have the big picture from your arguments before (obviously I didn't put enough effort in it), but now that you argument it the way you do, you have won me over. Very nicely built sound logic.

Indulge my ignorance, but is there a fully implemented mod with these changes?

[Da_Fish]

I shall only get this mod when it is fully done, because I don't want to get an early version and say "OMFG I can still play the way I used to and have fun!", but then due to so many people screaming Korbah is forced to change a part of the mod which makes me say "OMFG **** this mod it's crap" Looking at the initial changes he's made in a way that I can stick with chaos, unlike other mods.

Korbah don't listen to the voices....

[Korbah]

Some v.good points Sps.

Before I begin, please keep in mind that terms are not the uber unit ppl claim they are - they're v.costly, cap intensive, vulnerable to CC tying up due to appalling speed --> yes they have the AC (which I nerfed btw to make it less effective versus heavy units like dreads and med/high buildings) but the AC makes sense as a meatgrinder for anything without solid armour. I've seen pure terminator techs wiped out time after time by canny players - its when you just run stupidly into their excellent firepower that you start having problems.

Now onto eldar:

Eldar vehicles are to be blunt, utterly defunct. There's no clear purpose and the only one that actually does well was the fireprism. The WL works but only supported by the imba BL. There's no resemblance to the theme of the eldar infantry ie. specific countering --> there's no WS vs light inf, DR vs heavy with vehicles...they all counter pretty much everything to a certain extend and the main difference is HP and cost effectiveness. Thus from mid tier2 on in 1.3 you see WLs + BL's and later FP's...that's it.

The infantry is also somewhat broken but not nearly as bad as the vehicles. Rangers are simply in the wrong spot. They're far to expensive as a capping unit and suck for tier1 combat --> later on they're horrifically cap inefficient and are thus never used. Guards are quite effective as a tier1 unit --> this then becomes OP when magnified with the effects of FoF, FS interaction, Warlock dps buff and all their abilities...the main problem is that when guards hit they're hitting too fast since they get their upgrades too early, slow the upgrades a tad and guards will be hitting equivalent forces.

Now aspects. In theory a good idea. However, their implementation is that they always win for cost and FoF/teleport means they're never able to be caught out of place. Tone down their effectiveness a bit and combine this slight nerf (esp WS) with a slowing of the guardian rush (by slowing FoF) and overall u get slower eco and less initial pressure --> thus when the eldar do engage the enemy the forces are more balanced.

Other issues are BL's and FP's being essentially the only cost effective anti-vehicle.....again about 50% of the eldar lineup is useless/underused.

My approach to eldar has been completed. I'm not promising balance in the first iterations - the changes are too sweeping to really hope for true balance. What I have done is considered the eldar theme and also how they currently played and done my best to realign eldar to match this theme whilst keeping balance. The changes are fully ready to be modded....so stay tuned

btw fish the ONLY point that other ppl have argued that I included into the mod was T2 nob squads....and considering I made nobz 3 pop its a concession I was happy to make --> I severly limited their ability to act in tier2 as anything except a spearhead unit....far to cap and cost intensive to be anything else.

[Sps]

@ Sps

I hardly manage to disagree with even a single thing in your logic. I have to say I didn't have the big picture from your arguments before (obviously I didn't put enough effort in it), but now that you argument it the way you do, you have won me over. Very nicely built sound logic.

Indulge my ignorance, but is there a fully implemented mod with these changes?

There is but ATM i am trying to allow eldar to webway/shroud/relocate allied stuff. And also once I actually read the list of dow rebirth changes (noze's/mirages mod). I was amazed at how many things we agreed on - down to a cost for a stone for a buffed falcon - I swear that was indipendent thought. And I have only listed that to explain my arguments and stance in detail to thickhead morons like "shall we not insert names here ".

Please do not let that derail or hijack this thread. This is about what Korbah is doing. Having an in depth understanding of the game myself I'm trying to get this argument across to him - only eldar need such drastic changes, and changing the other 3 races in the way he is will make eldar balancing job that much harder.

I agree with some of his changes, but I dont agree with pushing things forward or messing with the cost of some of the core of SM (armory).


Korbah is forced to change a part of the mod which makes me say "OMFG **** this mod it's crap"

he is not forced to do anything, its his mod he can do as he pleases. Having played vs, I know he knows very well what he is doing but even the best of intentions need an impartial debate/criticism.

[Da_Fish]

I thought they were talking about everything....well I don't really care as long as you keep BT regen(you can get rid of his Hp buff) or have you gotten rid of that too?

[Korbah]

I'm still trying to do the BT with the ability to gain masses of health....I'm currently trying to get it to happen in code.

ATM eldar is a more serious issue. I spent all yesterday and today with the 1.317 which includes the first round of eldar changes - which are sweeping in relation to vehicles. WS got a nerf but not a crude damage nerf...think more like my cap limiting techniques with psm n terms that require teching to override. Also the overall mod research timer decreases were implemented thus stopping the "core upgrade" bottle neck and allowing specific strat upgrade teching --> this is a feature of all races in the mod and has attracted much comment from players in their praise of how upgrade teching is much more viable without being "everyone gets all upgrades from the start" --> there's still a lot of strategy, I'd argue more.

[mlai]

SPS: And I have only listed that to explain my arguments and stance in detail to thickhead morons like "shall we not insert names here ". Please do not let that derail or hijack this thread. This is about what Korbah is doing.

This "plea" to stay on topic is so blatantly hypocritical, I cannot help but chuckle.

It's very nice of you to explain your own mod decisions in a concise and clear manner. I especially like how you must end that excellent explanation with a blanket insult in order to undercut everything you just took the time to type.

Addendum: Look below this post...

I like how Sps calls other ppl thickheaded morons for disagreeing with his mod direction, then proceeds to disagree with Korbah's mod direction. It saves ppl all the work of flaming him. :loser:

2nd Addendum (1 day later):

Hey Sps this is my last bit on the subject. I just started private modding of 1.3 in earnest, so I don't want to drag the hissyfests on anymore in Korbah's thread. GL to your own mods.

[Sps]

Well, think as you please Mlai - you are clueless tho as i didnt explain my mod ,i used my mod to explain a certain (my) persepctive on eldar. But either way why bother, tards will never listen to anything that doesnt have eldar and overpowered in same sentence.

[Quitch]

I don't recall Land Raiders having any listed changes. Now, I don't recall anyone talking about how Land Raiders rock. They can do some decent damage to infantry, but their lascannons are pitiful, and no one is building something that big and cap happy to kill infantry.

The Lascannons on the Land Raider need help. For cost, las predators beat it. That's sad. It's supposed to be the nastiest, toughest vehicle (excluding the semi squid vehicle) on the battlefield, but it's pretty cack.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Land Raider damage to infantry is utterly, utterly, insane. They don't need a buff in any way shape or form, otherwise they'll just be a new defiler.

[Korbah]

We'll probably redo landraider dps completely as we did with eldar vehicles

ATM preds are in every way a better choice.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Not vs orks IMO... the twin HBs on the LR do something like 200dps to most ork infantry, and don't have the targetting problems the Pred sponsons have. The Lascannons also do quite decent anti heavy infantry damage.

[savagedave]

Land raiders mow down Ork and Eldar infantry so fast its not funny. 200 DPS to light infantry, 130 plus to heavy. I think they even kill their own weight in brightlances...

[Quitch]

They're tier three though! Tier 3! For an anti-infantry role! An anti-infantry role the Assault cannon can do, and can do while being brought down in pods from the sky! And can do with pathfinding which doesn't match the Squiggoths!

I'd rather see it cost more and do more to vehicles. It's supposed to be uber, and a tier 3 infantry killer is not what I'd call uber.

Though if you have a good replay of a Land Raider being put to good use, please show me because I do so want to see one where it's useful (not sarcasm, I really do, it's such a cool unit and I think it's wasted).

[GRIM Ripper]

a land raider still does 104 dps combined to veh_med. that is very good for a vehicle period, much less a vehicle with 5000 HP of veh_high armor that rapes ALL infantry types as well AND is pretty cheap.

[Vertigo]

Plus Spirit for even more damage sponging!

The LR is, statistically speaking, really quite a monster. It's the outside factors that make it somewhat rare: the flexibility of DS and OB, for example. So SM money tends to go other places.

Let's just say if the LR was any earlier in the tech tree, it would probably be quite OP. It would be just sick as a tier 2 unit, for instance.

It's already great for cost, and it can't be moved earlier in the tech tree. So... I can't see a buff being warranted.

[savagedave]

What, the Terminator Assault Cannon? Yeah you could do that, and then have their morale break and become useless, if your opponent keeps his head. The dreadnought assault cannon isn't half as good as the landraider at anti-inf.
Also, a lot of the AV in this game does only around half the damage to vehicle_high than it does to vehicle_med, so those 5000 points of Landraider armour last nearly twice as long as say, a 4000 odd HP predator, unless its against something like the OP defiler, or las preds, which are the best AV in the game anyway, by design.
I did have a good replay from 1.2, vs an eldar plat masser where I brought out a 'raider to very good effect. I raiders out today as well but I was playing like a lobotomised chimp so I'm not showing that one. Managed to OB my own base....

:dunce:
:clap:

[noise_pollution]

SM already have a very good tier3 antivehicle tank.. the laser pred... why should the landraider fill the same role?

[Quitch]

I've seen the LR broken down by stats before and people have always said that the Pred comes out on top, in cap, damage when upgraded, size, path finding, and for sheer flexability.

Did the LR get a buff or has thinking changed?

Could you at least make the left and the right lascannons on it do the same amount of damage? :
Maybe the improved targetting priorities of 1.3 makes the LR more useful. I for one am not impressed by having my anti-tank and vehicle in one unit. You can't target both! And I sure as hell won't have two LRs.

Personally, I think people are just looking at the LR on paper and deciding that it's good, without actually using the thing. I do really want to see a replay, a good replay, where the LR gets used and is effective. Hell, I've seen top replays (from way back) when the Squiggoth appeared in 1v1 and was USEFUL! I'd like to see the LR pull it off, instead of what usually happens, LR appears, Preds kick its ass, LR doesn't appear during game again.

Also, let's not underestimate the cap. I get a pred out, I can have another pred on the way. I get the LR out, that's it, cap is gone and I have to wait for it to die or pay more money. At least with other vehicles I can get a good flow going.

Yeah, I don't think much of the LR, and frankly it doesn't excite me in an anti-infantry role when it's at tier 3.

[savagedave]

Right Lascannon Stats
tp_building_high 17.60
tp_building_low 22.00
tp_building_med 11.00
tp_commander 18.51
tp_infantry_heavy_high 52.84
tp_infantry_heavy_med 53.90
tp_infantry_high 5.33
tp_infantry_low 12.83
tp_infantry_med 5.33
tp_monster_high 19.25
tp_monster_med 52.40
tp_vehicle_high 19.25
tp_vehicle_low 44.00
tp_vehicle_med 44.00

Left lascannon stats
tp_building_high 17.60
tp_building_low 22.00
tp_building_med 11.00
tp_commander 18.51
tp_infantry_heavy_high 52.84
tp_infantry_heavy_med 53.90
tp_infantry_high 5.33
tp_infantry_low 8.98
tp_infantry_med 5.33
tp_monster_high 19.25
tp_monster_med 52.40
tp_vehicle_high 19.25
tp_vehicle_low 44.00
tp_vehicle_med 44.00

They are exactly the same save for their damage in infantry_low, where the left cannon does slightly less damage. But lets face, thats hardly a priority.
Oh and WDI's stat breaker has them the same in every single respect, so there might be no issue to correct at all.

[Vertigo]

Those are, in fact, the old numbers. WDI is correct for the LR:



tp_infantry_low 12.83
tp_infantry_med 5.33
tp_infantry_high 5.33
tp_infantry_heavy_med 53.90
tp_infantry_heavy_high 52.84
tp_commander 18.51
tp_monster_med 52.40
tp_monster_high 19.25
tp_vehicle_low 44.00
tp_vehicle_med 44.00
tp_vehicle_high 19.25
tp_building_low 22.00
tp_building_med 11.00
tp_building_high 17.60


IIRC, various mounts have been changed and fixed for both the Pred and LR, over time. TBH, I don't know if anyone has crunched the numbers in recent times.

[Vertigo]

@Quitch: I was actually interested, so I started crunching the numbers. Short answer: LR generally dominates vanilla Pred and LazPreds for cost, except in rare circumstances. In general, the ONLY disadvantage of the LR is cap.

I'll avoid posting all the specifics here, as that's not really on-topic. But I'll be putting up a new thread soon with all the info.

[savagedave]

Look forward to it!

[Vertigo]

"Up!" "On the way!" (boom!)

LR compared to Pred, for cost and cap:
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=981922

[komninosm]

It's pretty weird thought that the lascannons do more to heavy inf than vehicles (and even less to buildings). I think the LR needs some tweaking not overall buff though. It's big advantage is a low power cost and high req cost (about 500/500).

[Quitch]

It's wierd that a las pred outshoots it. What the hell kind of uber unit is that? In other words, I can get las preds for dedicated anti-vehicle then something else for dedicated anti-infantry, while the jack of all trades but master of none LR sits around trying to be useful while likely taking up cap and blocking the pathfinding.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

LR is not an uber unit. LR never was an uber unit.

[Quitch]

It is as uber as SM gets and is therefore their uber unit, no matter how uber anyone elses may be.

[santiago4ever]

It's wierd that a las pred outshoots it.

Not really considering that a laser pred is a very specific vehicle counter, LR dishes out large amount of damage to everything. And yes the LR will win in a shootout against a fully lazered pred IIRC.

[$gtPopp3r]

talking about lRs......


a wraithlord barely scratched a LRs polished last time I tried (in cc). coud it be wraithlords suck against vehicle_high? what's the eldar counter to landraiders? (sth at least moderately durable that will actually get to do damage and won't be shot down long before that by rocket launcher at that stage in the game).

[Vertigo]

I think BLs still do the job for cost, in a vacuum. Could be wrong, though. Anyone care to run the numbers?

[savagedave]

Care to run a test? Might be better to see how targetting and pathfinding affect it.

[Vertigo]

Not tonight. It's late. (LOL, me saying that to a guy who is -5 hours from me.)

Maybe tomorrow? If I've got some free time? When would you be around, GMT time? Drop me a PM.

[savagedave]

Will do.

[Vertigo]

You know what, don't bother. I don't think we need to do a test. Check it out:

4 BLs = 560/420, 4400 HP, dmg vs. tp_vehicle_high = 104.52
1 LR = 470/555, 4900 HP, dmg vs. tp_infantry_heavy_high = 133.26

Due to the dreadnaught effect, this matchup isn't even close. I don't think we need to test. LR wins going away.

Especially since, if anything, pathfinding would work against the plats as they jockey for shots and have to set up. The LR just rolls into range and opens fire.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Dreadnaught effect wouldn't help it much. Multiple weapons are likely to split fire now, not focus, so in all probability both lascannons are shooting seperate targets and so's the twin HB.

[savagedave]

If there all against the same armour type I don't think they will split. I'm sure the lascannons will focus fire at least, and they do most of the damage to heavy_high.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

I had my landspeeders splitting fire against an SM squad repeatedly the other day. It just seems to be what multiple weapons do now.

[Vertigo]

It's been my experience that multi-mount weapons will split fire into a multi-unit squad like tacs, but WILL focus fire on a single-unit squad, such as other vehicles.

I was fiddling with an LR earlier today for some tests, and that's what I observed. Firing vs. Sluggas = split fire, firing vs. solo BM or buildings = focused fire.

Since Plats cannot attach to each other, the LR should focus on them just fine.

And, as mentioned, the LR wins even without the Dreadnought effect. Plus, BL plats can be kinda flakey when lining up for shots. So I don't see any possible factor that could swing this in the BL's favor.

So, hmm... for cost, the only Eldar unit that beats the LR is the Avatar. One Avatar handily STOMPS an LR, but it costs about twice as much. Looking at the damage, an Avatar MIGHT be able to beat 2 LRs at the same time. That's one mean puppy.

So, yay! Get to SM to tier 3 and all your problems vs. Eldar are solved! :p

Good thing Eldar don't have Fire Dragons! Oh, wait... crap.

[Quitch]

Dreadnought effect?

[Korbah]

Ok guys good news....revision 1.318 is ready to use:

We didn't release 1.317 here since eldar was a tad too rough but I'll include the cumulative changlog + 1.318 fixes in this post. As for hosting the file on places other than DoWsanc and DoWr anyone offering to torrent or host - I'll email the 500kb file to you.

Changes first:

1.318 Changelog:

Eldar:

FoF – 42sec build timer

Haywires – Timer set to 60secs

Fortune – cheapened to 125/50 45secs

WS Exarch - a 15% nerf against inf_heavy_med.....that'll teach em not to use shees vs orks

Exarch Reinforce Timers - shee 20secs, DR 30 and WS 25 (AC/Sarg = 30, NobL = 29)

Shees - Shee CC with optics buff 10% for first one and 15% for optics 2


Orks:
SB’s – 45req, Choppy, More choppy, ‘Eavy Armour, Supa ‘Eavy Armour –storm boyz 25% instead of 20%

SB Nob – 750hp, 80/30

Orky LP2 -28 range

Dakka/More Dakka – now apply to all orky shootas on buildings

FJ - healing removed during spell duration

Chaos:
Sorc – timers increased


SM:
WoTE - healing removed during spell duration



Cumulative DoWpro Changes That Should Be Enacted By 1.3171

This is a checklist compiled from all the previous changelogs. Any new suggested changes are in BOLD & UNDERLINED

Space Marines:

Hvy weapons upgrade: restored to 75/75

Tier3 – 300/200

AT's exactly the same as they are now except they get rally at Tier3

Hero HP upgrades: build/research 15% faster

Sarg/Assault Sarg: 450hp tp_infantry_heavy_high. Numerous DPS changes listed below

SM: - increase moving accuracy from .3 to .35 with basic bolters

SM Rockets – 1.3 damage except vehicle_high = 19.5dps

Scout: Damage nerf removed. Decrease max scouts/squad to 3. Slowed sniper rifle build time by 20%.

Hellfire Dread: No damage buff. Lascannon upgrade cost and time decreased by 20%/20%/15%.

Normal terms: Starting at T2 = 3pop, max squad size 5 (starting squad of 3) with 2 hvy weapon slots (max 1 assault cannon). Tier 3 + Orbital Relay = increasing to 7 squad size and 3 hvy weapons (max 2 assault cannon), no relic required, built at sacred relic and do not teleport in just walk out like normal marines --> once orbital relay is built they start in reserve and may be teleported in. Also start with rally at T3.

ASM: Reverted to 1.2 stats

Orbital bombardment damage reduced to 65% of 1.2

Armoury: Armory cost decreased to 165/35

Powerfist upgrade research time increased by 10%.

Bionics and targeting upgrades all build 15% faster.

Preds: build time decreased by 5 sec. All tier3 lascannon costs decreased by 20%/20%/15%

Eco upgrades 2: Available in Tier2 once sacred relic and machine pad are built and 1st eco research is completed

Frags: friendly fire disabled, research time decreased by 15%

Whirlwinds: cheapened to 125/250

Servitors decreased to 70req

Mines 50/35

Rhino: 1250HP, 95/95, medium vehicle, smoke launchers default, max 5 rhino, 1pop each

Flamers range 25

Librarian moves at ½ speed when WoTE is active (AFAIK not working)

Sarg Bolt Pistol/assault sarg dps:
Max damage = 39.000000 Min damage = 31.000000 Reload = 0.8 Acc = .85
AP
tp_building_high 4 10.7563
tp_building_med 4.5 12.1008
tp_building_low 12.6 33.8824

tp_vehicle_high 2.7 7.2605
tp_vehicle_med 3.5 9.41176
tp_vehicle_low 6 16.1345

tp_commander 7.25 19.4958
tp_monster_high 3 8.06723
tp_monster_med 16 43.0252

tp_infantry_high 16 43.0252
tp_infantry_med 19 51.0924
tp_infantry_low 15.2 40.8739

tp_infantry_heavy_high 14.5 38.9916
tp_infantry_heavy_med 16 43.0252

Sarg/assault sarg Plasma:
Max damage = 78.884987 Min damage = 64.268997 Reload = 1 Acc = .65


tp_building_high 5 10.7469
tp_building_med 6 12.8963
tp_building_low 15 32.2407

tp_vehicle_high 3.5 7.52283
tp_vehicle_med 5.5 11.8216
tp_vehicle_low 8.5 18.2697

tp_commander 8.5 18.2697
tp_monster_high 6 12.8963
tp_monster_med 24 51.5851

tp_infantry_high 19 40.8382
tp_infantry_med 21 45.137
tp_infantry_low 17 36.5395

tp_infantry_heavy_high 17 36.5395
tp_infantry_heavy_med 23 49.4357


Sarg Chainsword:

Max damage = 54.596001 Min damage = 43.943001 Reload = 0.75 Acc = .65


tp_building_high 5 11.7095
tp_building_med 6 14.0514
tp_building_low 18 42.1543

tp_vehicle_high 3.5 8.19668
tp_vehicle_med 4.5 10.5386
tp_vehicle_low 6 14.0514

tp_commander 10 23.4191
tp_monster_high 3.5 8.19668
tp_monster_med 24 56.2058

tp_infantry_high 24 56.2058
tp_infantry_med 30 70.2572
tp_infantry_low 18 42.1543

tp_infantry_heavy_high 22 51.522
tp_infantry_heavy_med 28 65.5734

Sarg/assault sarg Powersword:

Max damage = 78.327003 Min damage = 64.903999 Reload = 1 Acc = .65


tp_building_high 5 10.7411
tp_building_med 6 12.8893
tp_building_low 18 38.668

tp_vehicle_high 4 8.5929
tp_vehicle_med 6 12.8893
tp_vehicle_low 10 21.4822

tp_commander 13 27.9269
tp_monster_high 4 8.5929
tp_monster_med 30 64.4467

tp_infantry_high 32 68.7432
tp_infantry_med 36 77.3361
tp_infantry_low 28 60.1503

tp_infantry_heavy_high 25 53.7056
tp_infantry_heavy_med 32 68.7432


Sarg/assault sarg Powerfist:

Max damage = 198.317993 Min damage = 162.259995 Reload = 2 Acc = .65

tp_building_high 8.3 8.53331
tp_building_med 15.4 10.24
tp_building_low 35.1 30.7199

tp_vehicle_high 16.1 6.82665
tp_vehicle_med 19.89 10.24
tp_vehicle_low 24.3 17.0666

tp_commander 20.1 22.1866
tp_monster_high 4 6.82665
tp_monster_med 30 51.1998

tp_infantry_high 35.4 54.6132
tp_infantry_med 49.15 61.4398
tp_infantry_low 31.93 47.7865

tp_infantry_heavy_high 32.8 42.6665
tp_infantry_heavy_med 42.5 54.6132


SM Plasma: - moving acc 0.3

Max damage = 42.307999 Min damage = 34.615002 Reload = .5 Acc = .65

tp_building_high 3.25 6.50001
tp_building_med 3.25 6.50001
tp_building_low 10 20

tp_vehicle_high 3.25 6.50001
tp_vehicle_med 3.25 6.50001
tp_vehicle_low 7.56 15.12

tp_commander 13.8 27.6
tp_monster_high 3.25 6.50001
tp_monster_med 37.3 74.6001

tp_infantry_high 13.8 27.6
tp_infantry_med 18.8 37.6
tp_infantry_low 16.8 33.6

tp_infantry_heavy_high 28.2 56.4001
tp_infantry_heavy_med 33.1 66.2001



Scout plasma: - moving acc 0.25

Max damage = 29.615000 Min damage = 24.231001 Reload = .5 Acc = .65

tp_building_high 3.25 9.28574
tp_building_med 3.25 9.28574
tp_building_low 9 25.7144

tp_vehicle_high 3.25 9.28574
tp_vehicle_med 3.25 9.28574
tp_vehicle_low 5.45 15.5715

tp_commander 12.5 35.7144
tp_monster_high 3.25 9.28574
tp_monster_med 33.3 95.1431

tp_infantry_high 12.2 34.8572
tp_infantry_med 19.5 55.7144
tp_infantry_low 15.1 43.143

tp_infantry_heavy_high 25.4 72.5716
tp_infantry_heavy_med 32.6 93.1431

Terminator AC: - now requires relic only

Max damage = 35.000000 Min damage = 25.000000 Reload = .2 Acc = .65

tp_building_high 7.1 7.28205
tp_building_med 9.9 10.1538
tp_building_low 29.8 30.5641

tp_vehicle_high 7.29 7.47692
tp_vehicle_med 14.1 14.4615
tp_vehicle_low 19.9 20.4103

tp_commander 19.5 20
tp_monster_high 7.29 7.47692
tp_monster_med 49.5 50.7692

tp_infantry_high 59.5 61.0256
tp_infantry_med 79.3 81.3333
tp_infantry_low 15.1 15.4872

tp_infantry_heavy_high 50 51.2821
tp_infantry_heavy_med 61.2 62.7692


For Review: WoTE, LP3’s, OB, ORelay cost, Landraiders

Orks:

Choppy, More choppy, ‘Eavy Armour, Supa ‘Eavy Armour – give sluggas boyz 25% instead of 20%

Dakka, More Dakka., ‘Eavy Armour, Supa ‘Eavy Armour – give shoota boyz 25% instead of 20%

First choppy/armour/dakka upgrades - build 20% faster, 2nd upgrade builds 15% faster.

Nob leaders – 750HP of tp_infantry_heavy_med armour. Increased reinforce speed from 25 to 29secs. Every nob costs 3pop

Hero HP upgrades built 15% faster

Burna upgrades – now affect morale damage instead of regular damage actual percentage buff the same (IS THIS MODDED YET??)

Storm boyz – Do not get additional choppy boost of 25% etc…just standard 20%. Bug fixed where adding nob breaks speed boost upgrade.

Stikkbomb – improved projectile speed to increase accuracy…still inferior to other 3 races but better. Improved 1.3 research speed by 15%. FF disabled.

Tb’s – higher basic morale +100. Decrease rokkit build time by 10%. Dps to 1.3 stats vs vehicle_med buffed by 5%. Dps to vehicle_high is now 13.96dps. Stikkbomb CC dps to building low/med/high now 11/7/3.5 respectively. Decrease cost by 5req each.

Nob squad T2 – T2 = 61pop 3-4+ leader 3pop each no klaws, Post orky fort = 3-6+leader 3pop and upgradeable with klaws (require relic)

Ork slugga pistol acc/moving acc increased from (35%/27%) to (40%/32%)

Warboss: 425/150 upped to 72sec build

Trukk – Set Damage as per 1.3 then Halve dps against all buildings of each hvy shoota  atm trucks are more effective than traks at building killing . Decrease truck dps against all inf by 1/4…remember there are 2 big shootas. ATM trukk was very very survivable and did too good a dps to make traks worthwhile. Check they cost 140/115. Moved to 41 orky pop (Both moved forward one banner in the tech tree), now cost 140/115, HP 1055, Vehicle_medium armour type

Traks: move to 51 orky pop…1.2 dps except against light_buildings which is now 24dps. Rokkit and chukka timer 1.3 nerf halved



Looted Tank: decrease build time by 20%, increase battlecannon fire rate by 15%, increase battle cannon accuracy by 8%

Big Mek: Mega blaster rolled back to 80% of 1.2 stats against light infantry types, 70% against heavy inf types, 60% against vehicles types, 40% against commanders, 75% against daemons. friendly fire disabled, research time decreased by 15%. Build time increased by 6sec with teleporta, 2sec with force shield and 4 sec with tankbusta kit and 8sec with Kustom Mega Blasta (incompletely modded). Added vehicle heavy blasta AP value.

LP2 increased to 28 range, 200hp boost. (there are some instances where the range of the ork buildings means you cannot attack the lp….28 range is still only vulnerable to heavy weapons so should not be a problem other than being more forgiving of retarded Hvy weapon pathing)

Slugga big shoota and rokkit acc nerfed to 80% (u want them more cost effective…use shoota boyz u slack bastard)

Shoota boyz big shootas moving accuracy 30% --> 25% (should just take the edge off this attack)

Burna range 25 (up from 18)

Shoota boyz rokkits moving accuracy 78% --> 65% (simply put this makes TB's much more needed in vehicle harass and shoota rokkits more static and inflexible to represent they're not elite rocket troops)

Rokkits: now @ 39waagh + PoG.

Mek shop now @ 41waagh + PoG.

Grots build 70% speed when infiltrated

For REVIEW: nobz, LP3’s, FJ, Trukk DPS

Eldar:

• Warp Spiders: decrease max pop size by 2, increase reinforce time by 1.5secs, restore max pop limit with completion of both WS upgrade and mobilise for war. WS haywire upgrade now takes 30 secs more. Change exarch accuracy when moving from 35% to 23%. Increase jump recharge timer by 15secs.

• FoF Research: Cost increased to 50/50, time increased by 25 seconds.

• Brightlance: reduced morale damage, 30% damage reduction against all infantry and daemon types, 15% dmg reduction against buildings, 8% nerf against med vehicles. Morale damage decreased to 30 per shot (down from 60)

• WL armour type changed to vehicle_heavy, WL stone increased to 30secs. Make starcannon do 32dps against monster_med ie. .65 of current AP. Increase CC dps to commander by 35%

• Exarches and seer council receive 15% and 15% upgrade from FS HP upgrades
• FS HP upgrades build 15% faster

• Plasma gren recharge increased and damage made identical to sm/csm, FF disabled. Research made identical to new sm/csm research speeds

• BS repair speed decreased to that of servitor. Also repair costs at 100% as opposed to the imba 20% (all other races are at 100% cost). BS cost increased to 55req

• DR range decreased to 31. Increased to 33 with DR upgrade.

• Optics and armour inf upgrade timers decreased by 15%

• Guardians dmg vs inf_heavy_med nerfed by 0.3dps to make them 4.4dps (once multiplied with the warlock buff guards will now be on par/slightly inferior to similar basic marines….guide will tip balance tho)

• Holofield 1 – 75/125 grants 15% more HP to falcons and vipers

• Holofield 2 – 150/220 grants 15% more HP to falcon, viper and fireprism

• Rangers – now require soul shrine. Squad limited to 5. 100 morale dmg per shot. Damage as per 1.3. Reload time 9secs. Setup 3 secs.

• Fireprisms 10% HP nerf. Gain benefit from holofield 2 only.

Vyper:
Gains benefit from both holofield 1 and 2
Increase build time to 19 secs
Cost increase of 20/10

Shruiken catapult:
- decrease dps by 1/3 against light buildings

Shruiken Cannon
- decrease dps by 1/3 against inf_heavy_high
- decrease dps by ½ against monster_med
- increase dps by 1/3 against inf_high

Vyper missle launcher
- Add knockback ability against infantry
- Increase rocket damage to vehicle_low by 1.2
- Increase rocket damage to vehicle_med by 15%

Falcon:
Now counts as vehicle_med with 950HP costing 150/120
Gains benefit from holofield 1 and 2

Shruiken catapult:
- decrease inf_high dps by 20% (25dps - 20dps)
- decrease inf_heavy_med dps by 20%
- decrease inf_med dps by 20%

Scatter laser
- decrease inf_heavy_med dps by 20%
- decrease monster_med dps by 50%
- decrease commander dps by 50%

Brightlance
- decrease dps against monster_med by 50%
-

Starcannon
- increase dps against inf_heavy_high by 25%
- Halve dps against vehicle_medium
- Halve dps against inf_heavy_med
- Increase dps against monster_med by 40%
- Halve dps against vehicle_high
-
FOR REVIEW: FoF/Haywire Timers, vehicles, Rangers, WS, Guards

CSM:

Tier3 – 300/200

Hvy weapons upgrade: restored to 75/75

Fix heretics so that they heal at 1hp per second in T2 taint….iirc still not working

Hero HP upgrades: build/research 15% faster

Champ/Cult champ/raptor champ: 450hp tp_infantry_heavy_high

CSM: - increase moving accuracy from .3 to .35 with basic bolters

CSM Rockets – 1.3 damage except vehicle_high = 19.5dps  make em identical to SM rockets

Horrors gain benefit from Target Finders 2

Daemon Pit allows all daemons and oblits to be deep striked into combat if they go into it.

CSM Plasma: - moving acc 0.3  make identical to SM plasma

Max damage = 42.307999 Min damage = 34.615002 Reload = .5 Acc = .65

tp_building_high 3.25 6.50001
tp_building_med 3.25 6.50001
tp_building_low 10 20

tp_vehicle_high 3.25 6.50001
tp_vehicle_med 3.25 6.50001
tp_vehicle_low 7.56 15.12

tp_commander 13.8 27.6
tp_monster_high 3.25 6.50001
tp_monster_med 37.3 74.6001

tp_infantry_high 13.8 27.6
tp_infantry_med 18.8 37.6
tp_infantry_low 16.8 33.6

tp_infantry_heavy_high 28.2 56.4001
tp_infantry_heavy_med 33.1 66.2001


• Defiler: reverted to 1.2 stats +200hp. overall AC damage reduction with 20% across the board.

• Chaos vehicle cap now 21 – max 6 preds

• Horrors: Reverted to 1.2 stats.

• Cultists: Grenade Launchers – inf_light damages reverted to 90% of 1.2 stats. Inf_heavy 1.3damage remains the same (thus they counter light inf effectively but not heavy inf). Gren FF disabled. 1.3 AC build speed ok. 1.3 cult hp ok.

• Sorceror: Increased build to 22sec time after chains/corruption has been researched by 4 secs for chains and an additional 2sec for corruption. 15% doombolt damage nerf.

• Raptor: Reverted to 1.2 stats. Raptors and all AC’s gain benefit from furious charge at T2

• Obliterators: Reduce pop cap to 3. Relic no longer required. Significant lascannon boost

• Champs: change armour type to inf_heavy_heavy 450HP. Current final DPS incomplete for all guns (OP placeholder values in place currently)

• CSM rockets: increase to do equal dps as SM rockets

• PSM: reduce max squad size to 7, restore to 1.2 stats, decrease starting squad size to 3 and adjust squad cost accordingly, decrease build time by 8%, decrease the daemonic talons, daemonic fire and daemonic mutation upgrade timers by 25%, speed remains the same time. Daemon pit restores max squad size to 10.

• Armoury: Bionics and targeting upgrades all build 15% faster. Armory cost decreased to 165/35.

• Powerfist upgrade research time increased by 10%

• Preds: build time decreased by 5 sec. All tier3 lascannon costs decreased by 20%/20%/15%

• BT: decrease build speed by 10%. Starting HP remains the same. Change HP cap to 12000. Reduce HP loss to 5hps. Increase HP gain per to 20% of hit damage. The exact details need working out but essentially BT now is a no.1 priority since left alone it will almost dbl its HP as it massacres you, it also dies slower. In fluff daemons get stronger if you allow them to do as they wish….DOW will be the same mmuwahaha BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!! :D. Obviously the regen cannot be too fast but will need to be enough that it can gain hp at a steady rate in combat if left unchecked. BT CHANGES ARE NOT MODDED – only a 5% ACC buff instead as a placeholder….any ideas on how to get this working in game???

• Eco upgrades 2: Available in tier2 once sac pit and machine pit are built and 1st research is completed

• Frags: friendly fire disabled, research time decreased by 15%

FOR REVIEW: AC DPS, Sorc, Defiler, Oblits, BT, PSM Deepstrike, LP3’s, CSM morale

Before ppl go insane and rant at me I'll outline the changes I'm closely observing:

- Cult gren dps....seems much less than 90% ie. still 1.3 minus FF --> will review
- Cult pistol dps.....dps seems to be wrong --> will review
- DR range --> will review combat effectiveness
- Shootas have a 5% buff --> will review in light of multiplier with teching buffs
- Rangers --> big overhaul needing supervision
- AC --> still with placeholder values
- Sorc --> maybe overnerfed....will review
- Defiler --> still not fully tweaked
- WL --> HP review with new armour class
- Ork rokkits --> review cost of rokkits
- All moving acc numbers --> will review code to ensure correct numbers (was some confusion as to how modifier worked...essentially all hvy non-setup/moving weapons will attract stiff acc penalties when moving, especially for scouts and shoota/slugga boyz)
- Stormboyz @ 45req - I recon OP but Omylol wanted to trial
- LP3's --> still need new values
- Orbital Relay --> still need new cheaper costs
- Orbital Relay penalties --> we want to make deepstriking cost req/power and offset this by making the building cheaper
- Oblits --> still require rework
- Raptors --> still require T2 rework
- Landraider --> for review
- Chaos and eldar tweaking still in progress --> stay tuned

[Quitch]

Looking good, though I notice the Killa Kan is where it ever was and, correct me if I'm wrong (I'm no Ork) but you're making it easier to get nob squads. Killa Kans bearly get used, often because nob squads are just plain better. Make it easier to get nobs and won't the KK become extinct?

Surprise holofield hasn't been changed to help the Wraithlord, but it should be interesting to see if it helps. Keep us posted with quality replays :) Can you guys mark them in some way of DoWS? They look like every other replay and are thus a pain to find.

[Korbah]

nob squads are nerfed - max 6 per squad --> you're going to need those kans. Also try lootas...they're much more uber than most know

WL has uber armour now....holofield make imba

Suggestion about reps noted - contacted Robo

[skid']

Link is down.

[Sps]

something for your mod - its going into mine

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=65074

[Korbah]

Actually Sps I'm kinda convinced that orks are pretty damn good in 1.318...i'd venture too good in fact.

I'm looking for orky nerfs rather than buffs atm ;)

[First And Only]

I like some ideas in this mod.

I especially like the half-strengthed Termies at tier 2 idea, because to me the biggest problem with SM is a lack of variety in viable strategies, namely 2, and in some circumstances, an iffy 3rd strategy. We want mroe depth to this game.

I think promoting variety as well as balancing is a direction Relic needs to go too.

[Snidely]

Korbah - would it be possible to put a link to the latest version in your sig? Makes it a lot easier. You just update that when the time comes, and no-one has to hunt for a link. (The initial post's link leads to 1.314.)

Keep up the good work.

[Rapier]

Looks awesome, only suggestion is that you modify the first post with the changelog each time.. or maybe convince a mod to make you a closed sticky that has the changelog and the most recent version link. Making it easier to access.

[Korbah]

Guys TBH I neglect this forum since I can't post the file here....I have no webspace to host the file and as such you're behind the times here - I just released DoWpro 1.319 on sanc.

If someone were willing to host the file for all the Relicnews ppl I'd feel a lot more inclined to post here (and no I can't torrent....computer is only on about 3-4hrs a day). As it stands there's no point letting you all know the new stuff only to be screamed at for not putting the file up in a more accessible location than DoWsanc.

[Black]

Guys TBH I neglect this forum since I can't post the file here....I have no webspace to host the file and as such you're behind the times here - I just released DoWpro 1.319 on sanc.

If someone were willing to host the file for all the Relicnews ppl I'd feel a lot more inclined to post here (and no I can't torrent....computer is only on about 3-4hrs a day). As it stands there's no point letting you all know the new stuff only to be screamed at for not putting the file up in a more accessible location than DoWsanc.
If you send the file to me on torrent I'd be able to help keep it up. My computer is on most of the day (22ish hours), I bet other people would be willing to help as well.

[AVD]

Admins, Mods!

Why not let Korbah be allowed to post attachments in this thread so he can simply attach the thing in here and we can all access it? Would that be too difficult or something? The mod is not that big after all. Just an idea...

[Korbah]

Here's the DoWpro 1.319 Changelog:

This is a highly experimental build since it contains rather dramatic changes.....testing is required more than discussion at this stage.

DoWpro 1.319

General: LP3’s need a review (next build ok)

SM:
- Orbital Relay Cost decrease to = chaos daemonpit + added 50 per req deepstrike cost If not moddable then ignore
- Review LRaider For next revision…we’ll discuss this one
- Apoths 55/15
- Sm/Scout plasma 40/30
- Sniper rifles 40/30
- HB check armour class attack priorities so that Inf_high and inf_med are first priorities THEN heavy_med

Orks:
- Increased BM build time by a further 4sec with force shield and 2 sec with tankbusta kit…thus 6secs per upgrade. Also increase base build speed by 4secs. He’s still a tad to quick on the re-buy…a 10sec overall nerf is reasonable.
- Add 700HP to Orky Fort  also ensure armour is building_high
- Increase Mek Shop HP by 450hp  also ensure armour is building_med
- Ensure SB’s cost 45req each when reinforcing
- Maddoks increase price to 60/10

Eldar:

- Move FS upgrades to HQ (HP upgrades, fortune, eldritch storm)
- Conceal – 45secs
- Guards: 15hp nerf, decrease max squad size by 2 pre soul shrine
- Increase max squad size by 2 for each sould shrine….maximum of 3 soul shrines
- WS: 240HP. Remove the timer nerf on the WS stone from 1.2 – 1.3. WS exarch gets 20% HP nerf
- DR: buff dps by 25%, 30% HP nerf. DR exarch gets 25% HP nerf
- Banshee Call to War research: increases shee charge range to 11
- WL: ensure armour is vehicle_high
- BL’s: 200HP nerf, increase the DoWpro dps nerf against infantry from 30% to 45%
- Vypers: 690HP
- FoF DoWpro timer nerf removed (back to 1.2’s 30secs…increased cost remains
- Psy storm: decrease dps by 15%, decrease recharge by 15% (hence less damage each time but faster to spam)  DO NOT MOD THIS FOR THIS REVISION….WE’LL REASSESS WHETHER THIS IS NEEDED FOR 1.319B
- WL: DoWpro stone timer nerf removed
- Bonesingers – 65req
- Eldricht Storm: 15% dps nerf
- New Research: Support portal allows gravitic booster upgrade for 120/75 45secs. Gives vipers and falcons gravitic boosters.


Chaos:
- Defiler dps fix TBA
- Cult pistols restored to 1.2 dps
- CSM plasma 40/30
- CL T3 – let Daemon strength apply to attached unit of CL
- Rap pistols get benefit from targeting
- Rap flamer mod ? TBA
- Champ Fix TBA
- BT? Try to code previous fix
- Oblits? TBA


Chaos is been considered for a large overhaul…..gimme time.
DoWpro 1.319

General: LP3’s need a review (next build ok)

SM:
- Orbital Relay Cost decrease to = chaos daemonpit + added 50 per req deepstrike cost If not moddable then ignore
- Review LRaider For next revision…we’ll discuss this one
- Apoths 55/15
- Sm/Scout plasma 40/30
- Sniper rifles 40/30
- HB check armour class attack priorities so that Inf_high and inf_med are first priorities THEN heavy_med

Orks:
- Increased BM build time by a further 4sec with force shield and 2 sec with tankbusta kit…thus 6secs per upgrade. Also increase base build speed by 4secs. He’s still a tad to quick on the re-buy…a 10sec overall nerf is reasonable.
- Add 700HP to Orky Fort  also ensure armour is building_high
- Increase Mek Shop HP by 450hp  also ensure armour is building_med
- Ensure SB’s cost 45req each when reinforcing
- Maddoks increase price to 60/10

Eldar:

- Move FS upgrades to HQ (HP upgrades, fortune, eldritch storm)
- Conceal – 45secs
- Guards: 15hp nerf, decrease max squad size by 2 pre soul shrine
- Increase max squad size by 2 for each sould shrine….maximum of 3 soul shrines
- WS: 240HP. Remove the timer nerf on the WS stone from 1.2 – 1.3. WS exarch gets 20% HP nerf
- DR: buff dps by 25%, 30% HP nerf. DR exarch gets 25% HP nerf
- Banshee Call to War research: increases shee charge range to 11
- WL: ensure armour is vehicle_high
- BL’s: 200HP nerf, increase the DoWpro dps nerf against infantry from 30% to 45%
- Vypers: 690HP
- FoF DoWpro timer nerf removed (back to 1.2’s 30secs…increased cost remains
- Psy storm: decrease dps by 15%, decrease recharge by 15% (hence less damage each time but faster to spam)  DO NOT MOD THIS FOR THIS REVISION….WE’LL REASSESS WHETHER THIS IS NEEDED FOR 1.319B
- WL: DoWpro stone timer nerf removed
- Bonesingers – 65req
- Eldricht Storm: 15% dps nerf
- New Research: Support portal allows gravitic booster upgrade for 120/75 45secs. Gives vipers and falcons gravitic boosters (not modded atm)


Chaos:
- Defiler dps fix TBA
- Cult pistols restored to 1.2 dps
- CSM plasma 40/30
- CL T3 – let Daemon strength apply to attached unit of CL
- Rap pistols get benefit from targeting
- Rap flamer mod ? TBA
- Champ Fix TBA
- BT? Try to code previous fix
- Oblits? TBA
Chaos is been considered for a large overhaul…..gimme time --> eldar first.


So "WTF Korbah" what did you DO to eldar. I made em more eldar. Faster, hits harder, techs better, keeps imba eco, more flexible. BUT they're also significantly more fragile. You'll actually need micro to win with eldar. I've ensured that by n large, eldar units do more dps for cost....and balanced this by decreasing HP sharply. I've also made certain units more viable. These changes are cumulative with the 1.318 revisions as listed about....they're not discreet and whilst they reverse some of the tech timer changes largely DoWpro changes remain implemented.

DR's won't be able to face down HB marines.....they'll have to behave like a good eldar and use mobility to outmanouvre the marines and cut them down on the run. Webways are now your best friends as are vypers, shees, BS's, farseer for disruption and enemy control --> keep em running whilst you cut em down, never face head on.

There are more ideas that will be implemented pending the success of this release and of course CSM needs many changes.....stay tuned.

Also anyone who'd like to torrent/host the file plz let me know

Cheers,


- Korbah

[Tiresias]

Sounds good what you've done to eldar, I like it. :thumb:

[Nephilim.]

By make Eldar harder hitting, the only thing I see is nerfs to DPS?

[testthewest]

A suggestion about vypers: How about making them Squad-size? 1-3 Vypers make one Squad taking 2 pop. You could reinforce them like infantry.

[OjKa]

Squads of Vipers would be good but it would have real poor path finding because relic made them such big units :( :busted:

[Korbah]

Agree, vyper squads are a nightmare to path.

They're staying as is.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

I've made some progress pathing vyper squads, the biggest problem I've found with them is that as soon as there's more than one Vyper in the squad they can no longer be repaired. The bonesinger doesn't know which one to go to.

[mlai]

I'll mention it here too...

Rather than increasing Wraithlord durability, I increased its speed.

Made its max speed 20 (dred is 16), with charge of 1.5x speed at range 10.

Tried it out and found that this faster WL may even have become OP, even with fragility. Missiles don't have enough time to cut him down anymore. But dreds running interception still clobber it good.

Currently trying max 18 with charge at range 12.

[testthewest]

"I've made some progress pathing vyper squads, the biggest problem I've found with them is that as soon as there's more than one Vyper in the squad they can no longer be repaired. The bonesinger doesn't know which one to go to."

2 Things: make the vyper model 20% smaller and no repairing allowed, since you can reinforce. Right now Vyper is very pop inefficient.

@Korbah: can you put a link to your newest build in your sig, so I can download it?

[Korbah]

it'll be a sanc link.....but ok.

[$gtPopp3r]

Right now Vyper is very pop inefficient

hmmm, never thought about that....that's a point, there...

[graldensblud]

I have to say a fast WL rather than a tough WL is appealing (but then what do i know ;) )

[Korbah]

Its not built yet but here's the prelim changelog for DoWpro 1.3191:

DoWpro 1.3191

General: LP3’s – building_high, 250/125. Also maximum of 3 per HQ (to stop massive turtling)  will need a review but worth testing

SM:
- Orbital Relay Cost decrease to = chaos daemonpit cost + added 50 per req per deepstrike cost for dreads and sm  terminators get free deepstrike.
- Review LRaider For next revision…we’ll discuss this one since atm its insane vs light inf….but mediocre against vehicles
- Apoths 55/15
- Sm/Scout plasma 40/30
- Sniper rifles 40/30
- HB check armour class attack priorities so that Inf_high and inf_med are first priorities THEN heavy_med
- Apoths produced in 15secs
- Make commander HP upgrades 15% faster than DoW1.3 as per the other races
- Move ASM melta’s to T2
- Fix apoth healing so that it only does x6 speed regen in the squad instead of x16 (I think what happens is that you get regen*4 for the apoths aura…and a futher regen*4 for being attached to the apoth. Perhaps we should change either the aura or the attach regen to *1.5 to stop the stacking effect of *16 and creating a resultant of *6 regen)
- Ensure Rhino comes standard with smoke grenades and ensure the upgrade is removed from machine pit


Orks:
- Increased BM build time with force shield, custom teleporta and tankbusta kit…to an extra 7secs per upgrade.
- Add 700HP to Orky Fort  also ensure armour is building_high
- Increase Mek Shop HP by 450hp  also ensure armour is building_med
- Ensure SB’s cost 45req each when reinforcing
- Maddoks increase price to 60/10
- Maddoks produced in 13secs
- Make commander HP upgrades 15% faster than DoW1.3 as per the other races
-

Eldar:

- Move FS upgrades to HQ (HP upgrades, fortune, eldritch storm)
- Conceal – 45secs
- Guards: 15hp nerf, decrease max squad size by 3 pre soul shrine
- Increase max squad size by 3 for each soul shrine….maximum of 3 soul shrines. Make each soul shrine after the first cost an additional 15%
- WS: 240HP. Remove the timer nerf on the WS stone from 1.2 – 1.3. WS exarch gets 20% HP nerf
- DR: buff dps by 25%, 30% HP nerf. DR exarch gets 25% HP nerf
- Banshee Call to War research: increases shee charge range to 11
- WL: ensure armour is vehicle_high
- BL’s: 200HP nerf, increase the DoWpro dps nerf against infantry from 30% to 45%
- Vypers: 690HP
- FoF DoWpro timer nerf removed (back to 1.2’s 30secs…increased cost remains
- Psy storm: decrease dps by 15%, decrease recharge by 15% (hence less damage each time but faster to spam)
- WL: DoWpro stone timer nerf removed
- Bonesingers – 65req
- Eldricht Storm: 15% dps nerf
- New Research: Support portal allows gravitic booster upgrade for 120/75 45secs. Gives vipers and falcons gravitic boosters.
- New Research: Researchable in soul shrine post MfW. Gives warlocks (including SC) a new ability that lasts 8 secs that decreases CC damage to the warlock and attached squad by 50%, 1.5min recharge. Cost 150/90 60 secs. Call it “Dance of the Elders” or something like that. This ability is intended on making a) SC useful for its cost and b) making guardians a viable option post T2 as a front line troop and also making warlock powersword and witchblade upgrades useful. The cost of the “guard tech” will stop this being overpowered since they won’t be able to afford aspects too (ie. cost of guard upgrades + escalating costs of soul shrines + cost of constantly reinforcing the weak guards).
- SC squad Size nerf to 7 pre MfW....get one more for MfW and one extra for each SS...so max 10. Also get the new ability.
- Make commander HP upgrades 15% faster than DoW1.3 as per the other races
- Decrease WS haywire grenade damage by 40% and add 10sec stun effect to buildings and vehicles.
- Nerf viper missle damage by 15% and buff acc by 15% - they never goddamn hit they’re useless atm .


Chaos:
- Cult pistols restored to DoW 1.2 dps stats
- CSM plasma 40/30
- CL T3 – let Daemon strength apply to attached unit of CL
- CL symbol of chaos research – lets CL give off taint healing ability of x2 regen.
- Rap pistols get benefit from targeting upgrades
- Rap speed upgrade – move to T2, also give the attached AC and the raptors +20% to CC and ranged acc and moving accuracy as well as the existing +30% speed boost. Change spell duration to 10 secs.
- Increase cult grenade cost by 5 power. Make light inf damage stats = to DoW 1.2 but keep heavy inf stats to 1.3.
- Make commander HP upgrades 15% faster than DoW1.3 as per the other races
- Ensure that CSM and cults benefit from furious charge. Also ensure that raps and AC’s benefit from T2.
- Ensure Rhino comes standard with smoke grenades and ensure the upgrade is removed from machine pit
- Champ Fix TBA
- BT? Try to code previously suggested fix
- Oblits? TBA

Here’s a prelim Defiler Autocannon Dps change list…changed numbers from 1.3 are in BOLD:

Armour DPS
tp_vehicle_low 125
tp_vehicle_med 110
tp_vehicle_high 87.2

tp_building_low 105
tp_building_med 98.3
tp_building_high 109

tp_infantry_heavy_med 70
tp_infantry_heavy_high 95

tp_monster_med 105
tp_monster_high 39.1
tp_commander 39.2

tp_infantry_low 40.7
tp_infantry_med 62
tp_infantry_high 67

So basically We’ve taken a lost of punch out of defiler damage against light targets….often 50% nerf :O. However, the higher end stuff is still there…and TBO that’s what’s needed.



Chaos is been considered for a large overhaul…..gimme time.

[savagedave]

Incidentally has anyone considered frag nades on Rhino's? Might make them more viable.

[Korbah]

Trust me they're now great with only smokes......

[BlueJackal]

Sorry Korbah, I'm not sure what else you've modded:

But are you aware that, unless you've significantly changed the Lascannon Predator (or Hellfire Dreadnought... which you probably have, since it *sucked*), for cost, the Defiler still does more damage to armored targets than a fully upgraded Lascannon Predator. And more damage to infantry, and is available sooner... only problem is it has shorter range.

Really need to nerf that bad boy, unless you buffed other vehicles significantly.

[Korbah]

Hellfire is dangerous to buff since it cannot be tied in CC....we tried it and it was op with only a 10% buff. PPl will have to accept hellfires as support units I'm afraid...or until I come up with a better implementation for em. Hellfires did get a much cheaper and faster building lascannon tho. As do all preds.

The defiler nerf is 3 posts above you with detailed dps numbers...

The defiler must have some punch....it comes later than any other race's first vehicle and must hold out until preds. However, I've made changes to make infantry rockets a much more viable counter (its nerfed 200hp and in some cases 60% on inf damage). It needs heavy autocannon damage against medium vehicles and heavy_high inf tho...and that's how things are staying.

[BlueJackal]

I noticed the stats post, but I wasn't sure if that was all that you'd changed.

Ah, if Lascannons are cheaper and faster... perhaps it balances out, since Predators do have twice the range, or thereabouts.

Have you tried increasing Hellfire missile damage? It has (assumedly) low penetration/accuracy vrs. infantry, but it'd perhaps make the Hellfire more viable in its anti-vehicle role. I assume you buffed the Autocannon when you mentioned the 10% buff (or both.)

I suppose + or - 50 DPS against vehicles isn't huge. Though the Defiler is still awful cost-efficient. Ah well, just voicing my thoughts. Nerfing Infantry damage was of key importance.

[Quitch]

I don't know how the Hellfire works out currently, but it really should be the Landraider of its tier, a balance of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle, but unlike the LR it should become better at AV than AI due to its Lascannon upgrade.

Never built one myself, I think the output is a bit feeble. I'd rather the missles and assault cannon weren't nerfed (when viewed against comparable vehicles) and the cost of the Hellfire was higher. Maybe if it was allowed to upgrade to the Lascannon at tier 2 that would make it a more interesting unit?

Oh, and I think that plasma cost looks a little high. There was a whole topic about it, and I thought 40/20 looked like a good cost. That's still a doubling of the power required. Same for the sniper rifle, especially now that scouts have less of a buffer before you kill the expensive SR wielding unit.

[Korbah]

40/30 works....give it a go or you'll never know. Before I get flamed yes gren cults will attract a cost increase too...just hasn't happened yet.

[Quitch]

Oh I will, when I can keep the changes in my head. Got beat by a Harder AI the other day with this, it was so humiliating. I just wanted to try termies at tier 2, and I forgot all about them and started tried to cap every point. Oh yeah, a sad day for my pride :)

You'll know your mod is working when the AIs "bit of everything" stratergy actually becomes viable ;)