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View Full Version : Plasma is too strong....



testthewest
7th Jun 05, 9:01 AM
It´s getting boring. All SM vs SM or CSM games are mutating into techraces for plasma. No matter what advantage you had, as soon as there are some plasmarifles in the game and you have none (for 20 sec), you are down. Plasma owns any infantry, has no setup and a huge range.

It needs weaknesses, otherwise SM vs SM/CSM will get even more boring than eldar vs eldar.

Brian
7th Jun 05, 9:07 AM
Not really, maybe reduce damage vs light infrantry.

And theres much more to csm vs sm or mirror matches then eldar ones.

aqwerty
7th Jun 05, 9:27 AM
olasma is indeed to strong.
its even good vs vehicles :P
there is no counter (except vehicles of course, but even than a mass of plasma will wtfpwn falcon in few secs)
combined with wote and aph plasma is unstopable
if eldar tier 1 get nerfed and it will, sm/csm tier 23 also need to be nerfed cos for me the only way to win a good sm/csm player is nerf his eco so i will get vehicles b4 he get to tier 2, or annihilate him

Stefan
7th Jun 05, 9:52 AM
if the opponent in a SM vs SM/CSM game has plasma and all you have is marines then he has spent a lot of money (gen, armoury, T2, plasma) otherwise you shouldnt be that far behind his tech. in addition you can always attempt to run if you see it coming or you can melee his troops. Not much you can do about a hard counter like that, even if they only did 30 DPS as opposed to 40 they would still be game ending (any less dmg then 30DPS and they wouldnt be any better then just massing marines)

Chris
7th Jun 05, 9:52 AM
The only reason people are racing to plasma is because people are realising just how useless heavy bolters are against eldar players. Yeah wow look at that awesome damage to light infantry, heavy bolters should own right? Well yes they should, but putting them on slow moving marines who all clearly have a big sign on their back saying "OMFG OVER HERE FARSEER PLS COME AND DISRUPT US KK" makes them weaksause compared to units like the dark reaper.

Space marines just can't compete with eldar tier 1, so they race to tier 2. If eldar didn't have the tools to stop this kind of thing happening like orks, then maybe I'd have a little more sympathy.

psychodil
7th Jun 05, 10:31 AM
Good players also use plasma against orks as well, as you know chris. Even when plasma marines are fleeing from stormboys, they can still shoot at 90 degrees at other squad members. Its really annoying.

Did I mention that it is far more damaging than big shootas, costs less and is on a much more durable unit too?

Chris
7th Jun 05, 10:35 AM
Yeah I'm aware. :D I think if trakks were moved forward a banner, this problem would pretty much solve itself without actually having to nerf plasma in any way. Right now marines are putting all their eggs in one basket and massing plasma because they know there will be no vehicles. Bring back the fear of early vehicles (not too early) and you will force the marines to field more rockets and less plasma.

psychodil
7th Jun 05, 11:09 AM
Give orks a counter to heavy infantry that isnt vehicles and that could help too. Something that can damage moving targets, i.e not melee.

Capt.Katana
7th Jun 05, 11:13 AM
they can still shoot at 90 degrees at other squad members. Its really annoying.

:err: so i guess it's ok to get shot in the back as you barely get away (seein as SM are movin slowly)man thats the best part is shooting on the run






Space marines just can't compete with eldar tier 1, so they race to tier 2. If eldar didn't have the tools to stop this kind of thing happening like orks, then maybe I'd have a little more sympathy
i most absolutely agree with Chris on this


as far as CSM/SM VS SM ..most battles lately have slowly reach tier 3(if they make it ) ..so guess what.. until can get some decent vehicles out and fighting you can get overrun by massed troops or artillery(by the way plasma is a good counter to defilers) bombardment..which leads to plasma rifles..
it has come down to hit hard and fast..and since SM have a disadvantage in CC (WHICH I STILL DONT UNDERSTAND WHY THEY DO):offtopic:
i dont believe a setup time is necessary.i mean heavy bolters are still worthless in most scenarios
unless it's a inexperience player you are up against.i use a combo of all weapons depending on given situation.and if you think about it ..

plasma is suppose to burn thru metal and be superheated.if you make it weak(nerf) it should'nt even be called plasma..called it a super heated bullet cause you just took away what it's purpose was for.
what are you gonna do when if the IG bring out the melta gun or SM/CSM have a melta gun and it will have a small setup time.it's just around the corner

Rapier
7th Jun 05, 11:17 AM
I want a unit of Flash Gitz. (The only potentially ranged unit in the Ork line up in TT 3rd edition). They still have BS 2, but they all get custom weapons so they would do good damage when they hit.

Could be built from the HQ at tier 2, limit of 1. If Ork had ONE, unit that could do good ranged damage they could all stand around it and slowly harass :P with none they can just charge and run away again =).

savagedave
7th Jun 05, 11:18 AM
(by the way plasma is a good counter to defilers)

Errr....Marine plasma does 3.25 DPS to defilers. How is that good?

Stepsongrapes
7th Jun 05, 11:21 AM
3.25 DPS 3.25 DPS 5.49 DPS

Those are the plasma numbers for plasma against vehicle high/med/low. PLASMA= BLEAH against vehicles.

Plasma IS NOT overpowered. It comes out approximately the same time as vehicles and is owned by them. I've beaten many a SM/CSM as SM when the fight starts out as tactical massing followed by teching. They go plasma, run an army in to meet 2 Land Speeders. GG.

Plasma's weakness is the time it becomes available. As Chris said, move trakks forward 1 banner and it's cool. Did any ork have problems with plasma in 1.2? No-- the SM/CSM had to be concerned about his plasma being cost countered by vehicles (not to mention saving heavy weap room for missiles).

psychodil
7th Jun 05, 11:25 AM
"so i guess it's ok to get shot in the back as you barely get away (seein as SM are movin slowly)man thats the best part is shooting on the run
"

Shooting when you are chasing an enemy is fine. Shooting when fleeing after being engaged in melee is not IMO.

IceCream
7th Jun 05, 11:33 AM
Plasma has a weakness,when it comes to tanks and Artiliry but no one thought of that.If Plasma was weak Choas Possessed marines will own,nobs will stop over everything and it will be unbalanced then you guys would whine about that too.The reason you guys are whinning about it is becaue you don't know how to beat marines with Plasma.Plasma saved my butt through the beta and 1.3 still.But it dosent own all.But I know how to beat it,so stop complaining "plasma owned me in a game"so you complain its unbalanced since you can't firgure out how to beat it.Took me a while to firgure how to beat a horde of possessed.

Rapier
7th Jun 05, 11:37 AM
Good job IceCream... but you forgot to mention what the counter is that you use ;)

The infantry counter.

Because if I have vehicles out then I should get to win if you massed plasma and didn't make provision to counter vehicles.

Capt.Katana
7th Jun 05, 11:51 AM
Errr....Marine plasma does 3.25 DPS to defilers. How is that good?
WELL it has to be more than just one squad (3)dancing

and Psychodil you didn't say melee ..it still would mean you get to shoot the SM in the back and they cant shoot you in the back or break fighting to get away from a GREATER CC opponent ...just because some stupid greenskin can't shoot straight.:lol:

testthewest
7th Jun 05, 11:56 AM
"Plasma IS NOT overpowered. It comes out approximately the same time as vehicles and is owned by them."

It is and it comes way before the first vehicle. Second: not everything that sucks vs vehicles is fairly balanced.


"The only reason people are racing to plasma is because people are realising just how useless heavy bolters are against eldar players."

No there are many reasons. Plasma is just better and has no setup. But anyway: I started this threat because of SM/CSM matchups.


"if the opponent in a SM vs SM/CSM game has plasma and all you have is marines then he has spent a lot of money (gen, armoury, T2, plasma) otherwise you shouldnt be that far behind his tech."

I lost 3 games just because my upgrading HQ was at 60% while he had his first plasma-rhines. He just walks in your base (those LP go down fast), and kills your Marines. Running is hard vs 30 Range. Getting into melee even harder. You just get wiped, because you teched 20 sec slower. You lose your complete force, or a major part and will never be able to recover (and will never be able to get vehicles for that matter..)

Stepsongrapes
7th Jun 05, 12:01 PM
Ok Katana,

3 squads= 12 plasma guns = 39 DPS to the defiler. Cost= minimum of 840/120. 3600 HP total (dimishing damage as marines go down).

1 Defiler= 114 DPS from AUTOCANNON ALONE (dancing doesn't matter). 1 dead marine every 3 seconds. Cost= 140/305 2700 HP (no loss of power).

Yay! You get to lose for over 2 times the cost! Not a counter...

Deen
7th Jun 05, 12:07 PM
The best counter to plasma (other than more plasma of your own) that I can think of is to melee his marines with your marines (those without HBs/flamers). For each plasma rifle he has you can have an extra vanilla marine. Those extra marines should allow you reach CC with more than a few stragglers and fight him in melee or force to dance.

Capt.Katana
7th Jun 05, 12:10 PM
:Puppy: well the nutts who brought it out last couple
of games paid for it, not me ..i didnt even bother to tech in tier 3 just made some ASM and equipped plasma and walk into their bases.what work for you, doesn't mean it didnt work for me.:matrix:

Chris
7th Jun 05, 12:14 PM
But your marines will evaporate before they reach melee, unless you manage to jump an assault marine squad onto each plasma squad simultaneously. Even if you do that, you're still more likely to take more casaulties from being shot when the ASMs land.

After a SM vs CSM game I had today, I'm really starting to think that the sorcerer and Librarian are both designed to stop plasma massing winning the game in one fell swoop. The sorcerer will help by chaining/doombolting enemy units thus allowing you to either out manouver them or flee from them whereas the librarian is able to disrupt with smite OR make your plamsa marines invulnerable for offensive/defensive purposes. The Librarian's abilities have more potential IMO, but the sorcerer's are much easier to use.

Deen
7th Jun 05, 12:28 PM
Chris,

8 plasma marines vs 16 vanilla marines charging in CC
8(38)=304
With focus fire the plasma marines will be killing 1 marine per second. In 4 seconds the CC marines can certainly reach melee range. Then it becomes a 8vs12 melee. The plasma marines can dance but this dancing is more damaging than dancing sluggas.

If you are planning on getting plasma (did not build ASMs) but do not have Tier2 yet, melee is your best bet.

Plasma scouts are much scarier IMO. With 4-5 squads you cap fast, get to Tier2 much faster without building any SM (you don't even need FC), research infiltration, bionics and go kick ass. Scout speed means they are more difficult to tie down and you can't run away from them. Kill the FC first, run away, infiltrate, run up to his marines, and open fire to kill them all.

Capt.Katana
7th Jun 05, 12:40 PM
ok i look at the replay it was just 3 squads of plasmas one had a intergrated missiles
oh and it was take and hold but i never built a machine spirit (4 player map)
for CSM squads i just put some scout flamers around them along with snipers in the back row ...the range is what gets most ppl and dont even know it ..plasma has about the same if not the exact range of missiles.huh?! Stepongrapes huh?! what is the range on that autocannon. where's your stats now huh?!...just kidding:grouphug: if anything range of plasma should be nerfed ...that would cause more CC..THEN I WOULD ARGUE SM need to be either better in hitpoints or have better and higher CC TO balanced against other races(CSM/ORKS)..

Stepsongrapes
7th Jun 05, 1:08 PM
Plasma has a range of 30.

Tactical missiles have a range of 45.

Defiler Autocannon has a range of 35.

Which do you think starts shooting first, AC or plasma?

Katana. Plasma is good, I don't think it's OP. But that aside, IT IS NOT A VEHICLE COUNTER!

Capt.Katana
7th Jun 05, 1:28 PM
i did not say a vehicle counter.. only for defiler

try it sometimes test it out one squad 2plasma,2 missiles the range from the missiles help sail the plasma to it's target before the defiler starts firing
by then it will only have a chance to take out 1or2 SM before it starts to crumble....
i will pm you a replay of one of the nuts i had to fight then you can look at the instant replay for yourself.

Sterling
7th Jun 05, 1:36 PM
The real problem with Plasma is that it's a cheap, universal infantry counter. It doesn't matter what kind of infantry your enemy has trotted out - plasma kills it. All of it. Fast. Even against regular infantry, a plasma gun is effectively an extra marine. It even (I think) works pretty well against heroes.

Sure, you can get vehicles. So can he. It's not like plasma really costs him anything to use, after all...

Like FoF Guardian rushing, it's an overpowered strategy because there's no risk involved. If you win the fight, you win. If you lose the fight, you've either set your enemy back or, at the very least, are still on even ground.

testthewest
7th Jun 05, 2:54 PM
@Deen: That wont work. Thats why Guardianrush wins vs some Marines.
First: not all 16 SM will be 4 sec away for charging in a real game. Second: Dancing will kill them easily. Third: the losses: you lose 4 SM almost instantly, while he just runs back to his LP´s.
Countering Plasma wont work like countering WS with orc melee.
Plasma is too versatile, comes out long before it´s counter and that´s why it´s the winbutton.

BlueJackal
7th Jun 05, 3:34 PM
Stopped reading halfway through...

The only way to deal with an opponent who has plasma sooner than you is to run and come back when *you* get plasma.

Frankly, the Landspeeder attack only works if they wanted to hold a critical location, otherwise they can run, upgrade, and come back. (as most of the time the opponent will have plasma, if not, you lose a few 'rines to the LS while you were probably making your own pit. Best way to play it.)

psychodil
7th Jun 05, 3:36 PM
"Countering Plasma wont work like countering WS with orc melee.
"

You mean countering WS with melee is possible? Wow, yjanks man.

WS mass is much much more of a win button than mass plasma,

Sterling
7th Jun 05, 3:38 PM
Yeah. While Plasma can be pretty sick, Eldar are even more sick.

Deen
7th Jun 05, 3:50 PM
You are correct.
I'm not saying you will necessarily win the encounter, or that the counter to plasma marines is twice as many vanilla marines in melee :lol: and I am aware that loosing 4 marines in 4 seconds is a pain.

I was just saying that trying to engage in CC is better than running away.
And running away is better than trying to have a shootout.

Stepsongrapes
7th Jun 05, 3:57 PM
Frankly, the Landspeeder attack only works if they wanted to hold a critical location, otherwise they can run, upgrade, and come back.

I've yet to see an SM/CSM on the attack with plasma successful run against Land Speeders without taking massive loses. You can literally JUMP and block their path of retreat.

The only valid semi-argument I've seen about plasma being OP is that they are too strong against light infantry. However, it has already been pointed out that an extra vanilla marine would be better than a plasma marine in the light infantry match-up.

Does plasma do very well against heavy_infantry? Definitely, that's what it is for. Should a person who techs to plasma beat someone who just masses (in SM/CSM matches)? Of course, why not?

I just don't see what's wrong with saying the answer to plasma is vehicles, when the two come out around the same time.

Chris
7th Jun 05, 4:04 PM
Because plasma can be instantly upgraded in the field, whereas vehicles require the machine cult/pit, which costs far more and takes longer. If both players hit tier 2 at the same time, plasma will appear a couple of minutes before vehicles... and that's 2 minutes in which you won't be able to fight the opposing force.

santiago4ever
7th Jun 05, 4:06 PM
aye but you can have the sorc out the same time plasma hits the field ^.^

Chris
7th Jun 05, 4:08 PM
Exactly. I always go sorc first because I know that he's the only thing that can keep me alive if I can't equal the mass of plasma my opponent has. Sorc/Librarian are much better choices against plasma mass IMO than vehicles.

BlueJackal
7th Jun 05, 4:24 PM
What Chris has said, also:

That assumes the player is on the offense. I'm sure it'd work.
But there are ways of safeguarding your Tac Marines against Landspeeders, as long as you don't "right-click plasma" once you hit Tier 2.

Tempting to play as SM and try out Landspeeders, but I think I'll wait 'til 1.4.

God, the Defiler is so OP. It disgusts me, even though I'm Chaos, that it is superior to all number of vehicles who have a *specific* role.

Stefan
7th Jun 05, 4:31 PM
frag nades + melee can help you a lot vs plasma, other then that you can basically try and avoid the fight or melee. If the enemy is getting his base destroyed some plasma showing up will not usually turn the tide drastically, lower econ means u can keep up with his teching and those marines your massing wont go to waste. Now if all you do is mass mass mass then duh your gonna lose once a techer hits a key tech like plasma, if your going to mass you should be playing aggressive enough to at least partially negate the enemies teching ability.

BlueJackal
7th Jun 05, 4:49 PM
Interesting thought regarding frag 'nades, Stefan, not sure how practical it is, but I'll keep it in mind.

Stefan
7th Jun 05, 4:59 PM
they aint great but they will buy u a few seconds so u can hopefully get into melee.

Stepsongrapes
7th Jun 05, 5:12 PM
The vehicles > plasma is the same premise as plasma > vanilla marines. A little bit more time and invested cost for a greater pay-off/efficiency (same as all teching).

Yes vehicles come out slightly later than plasma (1 minute later for a LS using a 2-servitor build). The question is always: can you hold opponent off/avoid combat for that amount of time?

The pay-off is definitely there: fast-attacks will kill many times their cost in plasma.

Sterling
7th Jun 05, 5:46 PM
And Plasma also doesn't prevent you from teching to vehicles reasonably quickly yourself, especially given how much damage you can do to the enemy.

Chris
7th Jun 05, 5:50 PM
Interesting thought regarding frag 'nades, Stefan, not sure how practical it is, but I'll keep it in mind.

A frag grenade timed correctly can make all the difference when 2 plasma forces are facing off against eachother. The only drawback is that grenades have a range of 25 and plasma has a range of 30, which means that your troops will be required to move and thus lose accuracy.

Inst
7th Jun 05, 6:05 PM
Plasma scouts counter plasmarines. Cultist grenadiers used to counter plasmarines.

a1ph4riu5
7th Jun 05, 7:51 PM
Talking about Marines/CSM vs plasma in particular, melee is never going to be a good counter since Marines don't negate Marines in melee, like they would Dark Reapers. They'll still kick your ass pretty quickly because of the pure mass of marines encircling the poor little guys that didn't get killed on the charge. After they finish kicking the corpses into the dust, they'll turn around and start firing plasma at any remaining marines.

TheDeadlyShoe
7th Jun 05, 8:24 PM
Plasma cultists - or just cultists in general - decently counter plasma marines, in team matchups anyways. I've not tried it much in 1v1s.

Penitent
8th Jun 05, 2:38 AM
I don't see the problem, in the majority of situations if I know the enemy has more plasma than my marines then I don't fight them, I run off until I can catch up.

I know that land speeders work wonders if you get to them quick enough, 2-3 of them can kill missile marines before they do serious harm and when all his marines are shooting at the speeders I normally choose that moment to engage him with my own infantry (mostly plasma scouts these days), this often saves me from losing all those marines from trying to get into range.

I do however prefer to buy a sacred artifact and go for the librarian and apothcary's and missile marines, I think against an SM/CSM opponent who goes for plasma and vehicle tech instead will just lose his vehicles to missile fire for little gain, while my invincible marines and scouts mow down his potenttially larger forces.

If both players are SM or CSM and get to tier 2 at roughly the same time, then the better strategy wins. As for plasma killing eldar, they can't complain about anything, and orks would benefit more from a buff rather than nerfing SM/CSM, I know I've been winning my games against orks lately by wasting all his boys with plasma scouts, making vehicles a banner forwards would have lost me several neck-and-neck 1.3 matches I think.

testthewest
8th Jun 05, 8:13 AM
"You mean countering WS with melee is possible? Wow, yjanks man.

WS mass is much much more of a win button than mass plasma,"

No they aren´t, orc.
And I meant: Countering plasma with melee SM, dont work like trying to counter WS with melee sluggas. I hope now you can understand.

"Yes vehicles come out slightly later than plasma (1 minute later for a LS using a 2-servitor build)."

It takes a minute for the building and some time for the vehicle and some req and time for the higher number of power gens you need to support vehicles.

AVD
8th Jun 05, 8:42 AM
Almost 4 full pages and not even one of you even mentioned breaking the plasma squads? Am I the only one that upgrades his scouts to snipers?

Unless they have a lot more squads than you you will break one of them the moment they enter into range of your 2 sniper squads, shooting from behind the safety of your troops. The second plasma squad will break 12 second later. If you're facing Chaos as SM why not put a flamer in your squads? I've had more than one encounter where I managed to break the enemy squads and have them retreat, giving me enough time to go to plasma myself. And grenades do buy you some time - the sniper scouts do make use of it.

I usually try to have an ASM squad as well - comes in handy vs SM and Chaos.

I really can't see what the big problem with plasma is supposed to be. And plasma is OP vs Eldar? How? OP vs what at Tier2 exactly? DRs? FoFed Guardians? What am I missing here?

My point of view is the one of SM, just to make things clear.

Sterling
8th Jun 05, 9:20 AM
Break them? Wonderful idea... Oops, they just rallied.

Might work on Chaos, doesn't on SM.

This is a case of something that might be IMBA if all the other IMBA are fixed. The fact that SM players are going mass plasma against everything should tell you something.

AVD
8th Jun 05, 10:22 AM
@ Sterling

"Break them? Wonderful idea... Oops, they just rallied."

Which part of:

"My point of view is the one of SM, just to make things clear."

was not clear enough to you?

SM are supposed to be more moral ;) If SM can deal with plasma and Chaos can't then it's a Chaos problem and not plasma in general :devil: :jk:

And what is the solution to this "problem" - nerf the hard counter to heavy infantry, so it's not a counter anymore? What?

psychodil
8th Jun 05, 10:28 AM
Only thing I think is IMBA about plasma is its DPS to commanders. Its unfair that only CSM/SM have hard counters to commanders IMO.

BlueJackal
8th Jun 05, 10:35 AM
Nerfing it's damage to commanders might help, since you'd be more easily able to tie up an opposing squad and have flamers etc. brought to bear, perhaps.

And Snipers *are* great fun, but Rally, and well, only SM have them.

Vertigo
8th Jun 05, 10:44 AM
The most compelling thing for me, with regard to Plasma, is variety.

I'd like to see a reason to use HBs...ever. That implies making Plasma less cost-efficient vs. light infantry to start.

It may also imply a EVER SO SLIGHT change to HBs, though I'd treat that one like nitroglycerin.

AVD
8th Jun 05, 11:02 AM
@ Vertigo

One (most probably idiotic) question:

What would happen if you removed the set up for HBs, but did not allow them to shoot on the run (basically make the setup like half a second)? The way WSs shoot I mean? Would that make HBs way too OP?

I would prefer arguments rather than flames as an answer, but then again we can't have all we want...

GRIM Ripper
8th Jun 05, 11:36 AM
i totally agree with you vertigo. heavy bolters should be the CLEAR answer to light infantry. their numbers are fine, its just that a plasmas dps is too good vs everything and makes heavy bolters redundant in almost every way except for PURE light infantry killing. that is outweighed by a plasmas all around solid damage while being able to move and shoot.

AVD, the problem with breaking the plasma squads is that the plasma has such a high damage output that they can kill just about anything thats trying to flame them before theyre broken, even light infantry. ok yeah, MASSED scouts could do it probably, but thats an unrealistic situation and ONLY applies to space marines. what do chaos do? not only are space marines highly resiliant to morale damage in general, but cultists are no where near what scouts are....

i also think removing the setup (or most of it) would be a huge mistake. orks would SEVERELY suffer against this.

AVD
8th Jun 05, 11:52 AM
@ GRIM Ripper

I use 2 scout squads only, upgraded to snipers - 4 sniper rifles. I have no problem breaking the first squad to come into range right away. Sure - the second will be firing, but throw them a grenade or two... Focus the snipers on the second one.. Usually the moment the second squad breaks they all start running away. Sure - this works for SM only, but I don't think you need MASSED sniper squads to break chaos.

For me 2 sniper scout squads and 2 SM marine squads without plasma, break and turn on the run 2 Chaos plasma squads + 2 cultists. You won't have THAT many losses.

I always put a flamer per squad vs Chaos, never was sorry for doing so.

[Edit] Removing the HB setup time will make it a better offensive weapon, but it should not make a difference when defending, no? It was just an idea - everybody loves the fact that plasma not only doesn't have a setup - it even fires on the run! Why wouldn't people like that - it is so much more flexible - you can chase the bastards and kill them while they are retreating! The HBs only look cool - on the run they do nothing...

Vertigo
8th Jun 05, 12:37 PM
No, Grim is right. I was serious about the Nitrogylcerin comment, HBs can swing from useless to pure Orky death from the smallest changes. This is because of 3 basic factors:

1) Available very early
2) Relatively cheap
3) Attached to HI squads

The only reason Orks can handle HBs at all is due to setup. The last thing we want is ANOTHER equivalent to WSes. Sure, SM can't jump, but they melee a HELL of a lot better than WSes. It may be quite feasible to dance Orks just a bit to wear them down, and then just CC them to finish them off.

And, the HB's exceptional range presents a problem vs. Ork buildings. Stop me if you've heard THAT one before.

I'm all for nerfing Plasma's damage vs. light, I think that won't cause any major problems.

But buffing HBs must be done VERY carefully. Removing the setup time is a BIG change, and I wouldn't feel comfortable about that without a LOT of playtesting.

(This doesn't even mention the effects this may or may not have vs. DRs and Cultists.)

testthewest
8th Jun 05, 1:06 PM
Yes, plasma must be weaker, so that scouts with plasma own SM with plasma harder.
This would give more strategical depth to the game.
Same is with the WS exarch- too good vs armorclasses he should be bad at.

Stefan
8th Jun 05, 2:34 PM
"Countering plasma with melee SM, dont work like trying to counter WS with melee sluggas. I hope now you can understand"

Im assuming you mean the plasma would be harder to deal with, however this isent true. WSers have jumps, therefore counter them with melee is far harder then countering plasma SM.

Vertigo
8th Jun 05, 3:00 PM
Yes, plasma must be weaker, so that scouts with plasma own SM with plasma harder.


Saying SM need PLASMA, a HI counter, to defeat Scouts, a LI unit, kinda puts the problem in a different place, don't you think?

Scouts have nothing to do with SM Plasma. That *should* be the HB's job. Which is the whole point of this discussion.

GRIM Ripper
8th Jun 05, 3:34 PM
stefan, the problem with meleeing plasma is that whatever you charge into melee with them will literally die in seconds or be broken by the time they arrive in melee. you just cannot melee a plasma squad with other heavy infantry without taking SEVERE casualties on the charge... and im talking SEVERE as in ive seen an entire vanilla squad die to 2 squads of plasma on the charge. sure spiders can escape, but at least they didnt own your whole squad right before they do.

Stefan
8th Jun 05, 4:29 PM
warp spider does 30 DPS at 24 range, plasma has 30 range with 40 DPS, thats maybe 1 second more time to shoot. Warpspiders have 2 jumps, giving them effectively a range of 24 + 24 + 24 = 76 vs plasmas 30. over twice as much firing time makes up for plasma doing 33% more damage.

Sterling
8th Jun 05, 4:35 PM
And even light infantry is going to be in major pain, seeing as the Plasma can fire on the move and has (when maxed out) the equivalent of twelve marines doing shooting.

I think the only real fix needed here is to nerf the damage VS light, to make them less of a universal counter. And maybe increase the cost a little and give the poor Orks a Heavy Infantry counter already.

TheDeadlyShoe
8th Jun 05, 4:50 PM
Raaaaange nerf damn you!

Just that alone would balance plasma and HBs. IMO.

Stefan
8th Jun 05, 4:57 PM
A range nerf would be the only reasonable nerf in my opinion.

BlueJackal
8th Jun 05, 6:01 PM
A range nerf does seem pretty reasonable.

Sterling
8th Jun 05, 6:12 PM
Okay, why a range nerf and not a damage nerf? (Damage nerf meaning make them a little better than bolters against light inf, but not twice as good better.)

Vertigo
8th Jun 05, 7:22 PM
Because of static-D. Even stupid WSes seem to outrange Ork buildings. Arg.

HaXxorIzed
9th Jun 05, 2:35 AM
Plasma doesn't need a nerf. Kindly explain how plasma is unable to be cost effectively countered. As orkses, it's hard, but go for a mixed force of sluggaboyz/stormboyz and orkses weilding heavy weapons. A lot of people bitch that big shootas are too expensive because they don't do enough damage - but they key is they are fired on the run. Tie up plasma, chase with big shootas. As marines/chaos, combine frag grenades and plasma of your own. Tie up with cultists or get scoutplasma.

Eldar? Reapers. As for vehicles argument, I've been arguing plats need a nerf and eldar vehicles a series of changes so the vyper is the spam unit, the Falcon a battle tank, and the prisim a tank destroyer all along.

Chris outlined the problem very early into this argument. Heavy bolters aren't worth it because they are easily knocked over and havea a laborious setup time. Combine that with their expense and they suck.

As for the issue of ork heavy weapons, the big shoota does not need a fix. Rokkits do however.

Chris
9th Jun 05, 3:38 AM
I think cost efficiency really isn't an issue with plasma. It's NEVER that clear cut on the battlefield and you will almost never see 2 armies that are perfectly equal in cost because resources are also being spent on tech, economy, upgrades etc. so even if mass plasma is cost inefficient at wiping out an ork army... the fact is it still wipes them out.

Creeping forward with big shootas does work to a point as you outrange them by 5, but you're paying 40/30 to do 13dps to them whereas they're paying 40/10 to do 38/16dps to you. I think the only thing that really works effectively is to get mad docs BEFORE plasma and push really hard with infantry, if marines get to the apoth/librarian stage you are royally fucked and will need trakks.

I will keep repeating this point. If trakks come forward 1 banner, marines will no longer be able to put all their eggs in one basket and take the mass plasma/apoth/librarian route EVERY time. Did orks have a problem with plasma in 1.2? No, because the marines had to invest in missiles.

Against eldar I have less sympathy. Heavy bolters just are not effective enough against eldar due to movement speed, setup time and the strength of eldar disruption. With the eldar's mobility, you need something that you can fire on the move and that makes plasma an excellent choice. I agree that heavy bolters should be made more appealing and that plasma should not be the first weapon of choice EVERY time, but I think if you nerf plasma range/damage to light inf too much (if at all) it would be another nail in the coffin in C/SM vs eldar matchups.

In C/SM matchups and mirrors I sometimes feel that plasma is a bit too strong, the combination of long range vs slow moving targets can end the game in an INSTANT if one mistake is made but Chaos have the sorcerer to save them if a plasma encounter goes pear shaped. although the librarian for marines is a lot less accessable, he can also have the same effect.

HaXxorIzed
9th Jun 05, 7:55 AM
I've been saying the trakknerf was pretty stupid for a while. As was the Big mek Time nerf, to be perfectly honest.

You missed my point main point on why you can't use big shootas as a comparison though, so lemme clarify to everyone who reads this.. As I said, the reason orkses big shootas are so expensive is because when you combine the two, an army that gets into Close combat as it's piority, with powerful and cheap, moveable heavy weapons, orks would own everything. They are expensive because they fit into the orky army dynamic like that.

The one thing the other races cannot afford against orks is to get into combat. If you make shootas more expensive, as a comparison, then orks will merely have to tie their opponents up with foes such as sluggas freshly juiced, and run them down, because fighting in cc against sluggas is a losing battle cost wise, particularly with something like plasma marines. I do this strategy to marines all the time as it is. Cheaper big shootas? I can do it more.

Ie, Big shootas/Plasma, not a fair or good comparison.

testthewest
9th Jun 05, 8:11 AM
"Im assuming you mean the plasma would be harder to deal with, however this isent true. WSers have jumps, therefore counter them with melee is far harder then countering plasma SM."
@Stefan: Plasma deals more dps than WS and SM are fewer than Orcs, thats why it´s same difficult-level.

"Saying SM need PLASMA, a HI counter, to defeat Scouts, a LI unit, kinda puts the problem in a different place, don't you think?

Scouts have nothing to do with SM Plasma. That *should* be the HB's job. Which is the whole point of this discussion."

You misunderstood: I mean Scouts with plasma should be a counterunit to SM with plasma (not SM with HB). Right now SM with plasma is the best choice vs everything SM/CSM infantry can muster.

"Plasma doesn't need a nerf. Kindly explain how plasma is unable to be cost effectively countered."

Plasma needs a nerf in areas it is not meant to be so strong, i.e. light infantry and commanders. Also the range needs to be toned down. Then It will be a specific weapon against heavy infantry, and not a LP basher, a light infantry griller and a very mobile weapon (and cheap).
It needs a nerf, to make SM - Mirrormatches more interesting. To give an SM-player a chances to play something else then rush for plasma. To even counter plasma with mass-scouts (since they are light inf.). Right now it´s just: Who techs faster to plasma. BORING!

LoRd KoRn
9th Jun 05, 8:19 AM
I dont see that plasma is too strong. Plasma is used to be strong but it is actually a rare weapon in the wh40k universe.
So id just suggest to put a maximum of 3 or even 2 plasmaguns per squad.

Chris
9th Jun 05, 8:47 AM
Also the plasma cores are unstable and are liable to suffer meltdown, often taking the marine with it. So I think there should be an in-game randomizer and sometimes an unlucky marine vapourizes himself. :D

Rapier
9th Jun 05, 9:22 AM
Also the plasma cores are unstable and are liable to suffer meltdown, often taking the marine with it. So I think there should be an in-game randomizer and sometimes an unlucky marine vapourizes himself.

Isn't that a 1 in 6 chance in TT?

Also, if you have a squad with BS on it, and you send it into melee, you're not really doing cost effective killing.. chances are you'll lose that BS carrying ork. (especialyl since large squads still aren't desirable...) the only way to make that work is either; you have large sqauds, and don't maximise on hws, or nl, buthope that the meatsheild of extra boyz will keep the weak ork that happens to have a big gun alive (I believe this is the intended Ork Method).

Have lots of small squads with NL, where 3 out of 4 normal orks per unit have a BS. In which case chanes of cost effectively running that into combat become 0.

GRIM Ripper
9th Jun 05, 10:22 AM
well... i definately still think plasma is overpowered vs marines, coming off a long marathon of games vs a bunch of plasma massers. once you get critical mass of plasmas... its over vs anything!

it makes any mirror match faaaar too unforgiving, and in team games plasma does not make you pay against any other race you play. chris said it well, that it is certainly the best choice vs the highly mobile eldar, and in critical mass it owns any number of orks, including nobs and commanders.

i mean, plasma is definately "warp spider fast" ownage -- which is clearly too fast. it doesnt matter if both teams have the same weapon, the fact that they die SO FAST is ridiculous. even reapers dont punish you as hard as plasma for making ONE mistake or for your guys on hold ground running off into the enemy fire on their own.

i would say just lower its light infantry damage, but this would really put marines above chaos in plasma fights bc of scouts with plasma... ie a mixed bag of marine and scout plasma would own any infantry setup chaos could dream of, including horrors and possessed (word of the emperor only makes things worse).

id say, lower its range to 25, lower its heavy infantry damage to 30dps (thats still tons!), and definately lower its commander damage. this would put it on par with a heavy bolters damage, only for different targets.

TheDeadlyShoe
9th Jun 05, 10:25 AM
Bear in mind that plasma still needs to win fights vs equal cost of heavy infantry; ie, the aforementioned 8 plasmarines vs 16 normal-marines, the plasmarines should kick ass.

BlueJackal
9th Jun 05, 10:39 AM
I think nerfing range to normal bolter range and reducing the damage against Commanders would be a fair way to begin. Range nerf keeps plasma from getting free hits against normal marines.

psychodil
9th Jun 05, 11:24 AM
I agree with blue jackal.

testthewest
9th Jun 05, 1:24 PM
@Blue Jackal and Deadlyshoe: Agreed. I also think dmg vs light inf must be alot lower, so that you can opt for mass Cultists/Scouts to cunter someone that only masses plasmarifles.

BlueJackal
9th Jun 05, 1:30 PM
And not to mention the range nerf also helps making H. Bolter/Flamers both more viable, and lets a swarm of cultists or light infantry get closer before getting gunned down.

It seems like it'd help in all regards.

And reducing plasma to x2 damage of a normal bolter to Commanders instead of x4 makes Plasma still viable (since it'll aid you against Heavy Infantry immensely), but it's effectively somewhat worse than two standard marines (since you've got less HP, which may or may not matter) vrs. light infantry and commanders.

Not entirely sold on the light infantry idea, since like others have said, plasma should give an advantage. It certainly gives you an immense advantage vrs. heavy infantry, but I'm not sure if I want it to be 50% effective (cost-wise) as two normal marines vrs. light infantry.

If it were nerfed against light infantry then I think that one of the other nerfs would have to go.

GRIM Ripper
9th Jun 05, 3:16 PM
why? the price of a plasma should solely represent its ability to own heavy infantry, with DECENT at best damage to light and commanders. plasma is a counter weapon, and it should not have the ability to counter everything at once (you dont see dark reapers having anywhere CLOSE to cost effective light infantry damage for ex). as chris was saying earlier, its impossible to realistically compare armies for cost anyway, as its just never going to happen. also to further my point, imagine if rockets did 15 dps to all infantry -- they wouldnt be close to cost effective vs any infantry for sure, but that extra infantry punch would SEVERELY overpower them.

every heavy weapon has to have SOME disadvantage; right now plasma has none (its got long range, move and shoot ability, good light infantry damage and great heavy infantry and commander damage). i think the whole point is it SHOULD NOT be cost effective against light infantry, but right now it is (even if just barely). i would definately be content with 10dps to infantry_high, 17dps to infantry_med, 8dps vs commanders and 25 range.

HaXxorIzed
9th Jun 05, 3:40 PM
Uh, no. Plasma games are not games of massing plasma. It's called the sorc, it's called frag grenades, it's called librarians. Go watch some proper mirrors. In mirrors, you have cultists running around capable of tieing units up, scouts, commanders, frag grenades knocking marines down for 2-3 seconds at a time, etcetera. Don't accuse me of ignoring outside factors - you are.

Stop trying to simplify the situation. As an eldar, you should know the effect of disuption from grenades. Plasma is 90/10 a marine, 85/10 a scout, is easily countered, it's in the army that is supposed to outshoot everything, and nobody has yet to conclusively prove that plasma is overpowered. Go watch any of jiav's replays versus massed reapers, the marines get torn through. In mirrors, it's exactly like WS syndrome, you either go plasma, or vehicles. Nothing you can really do to fix it.

Vypers do less damage for cost than Falcons, even with the missile launcher. I still fail to see people whining about that either. Same situation, similar problem. The vyper is more spammable, but weaker in every way in 1.3. The falcon doesn't need fixing, the vyper does. Plasma doesn't need a fix, orks and the viability of Space marine vehicles do.

Replace word vyper with "heavy bolter" and plasma with "falcon". Ding!

As for commanders, judging by the way the game is designed, Commanders are meant to be heavy infantry, while having their own armour class. Although reducing plasma damage versus commanders would make the games more interesting. It could certainly be worth a look at.

AVD
9th Jun 05, 4:15 PM
I just watched the replay posted by Chris vs an Eldar. I watched it with one thing in mind - HBs. It really stroke me how much worse and difficult they are to use compared to plasma, really.

The more I think about it, the more I see that plasma would still be more versatile and useful compared to HBs even if you nerf it a bit. Weaker, but still shooting plasma (even on the run at that) is much more useful compared to a HB than doesn't shoot at all 80% of the time due to setup time, grenades, other sorts of disruption, being chased running away from CC, or whatever (an out-of-thin-air number really, but it's close I think).

Maybe, just maybe the problem is not that much in plasma, as it is, but in HBs being so worse from a practical point of view. Vs DRs for example HBs somehow always leave the impression that something is wrong - even if you set up the HBs first.

Thus, is it that crazy of an idea to take set up time from the HBs away or to reduce it considerably, instead of nerfing plasma, as nerfing plasma could mean that either choice would be a poor one. People say HBs should the obvious choice vs light infantry - it's an obvious one, but a bad one for me, or rather a worse one compared to plasma.

No wonder people take plasma over HBs even if they know there will be light infantry out there, no matter that in theory HBs do more damage vs light infantry and so on. At least plasma fires when you need it to, HBs mostly don't.

[Edit] Just to make myself clearer - I do not support the idea that HBs should be able to shoot on the run, no matter what, even if setup time is 0, they should not fire on the run - that would be nuts.

HaXxorIzed
10th Jun 05, 12:53 AM
Actually on, the subject of heavy bolters, don't beat me with sticks here, but I'm starting to thikn manymarine players use them incorrectly against eldar, if they do at all. A combination of Plasma squads, sniper scouts, and heavy bolters could work very well, as plasma can adapt quickly to the situation, heavy bolters cutting the eldar down as they attempt to deal with the Snipers.

Now, I know this has been done befor,e but not nearly enough in concert with Skull probes and apocs. The instances I have seen it used, resulted in a lot of eldar deaths. Although I certainly believe heavy bolters are probably bad, I'm beginning to think of better ways to use them.

A suspensor upgrade for heavy bolters that means they can be fired on the move at a decreased range perhaps? Because I agree with AVD, plasma doesn't need a nerf really. Except possibly agaisnt commanders, if simply to make the plasma massing matches more interesting. It's more, heavy bolters suck.

I see a comparison with the vyper and falcon in 1.3 going again :P

Chris
10th Jun 05, 3:50 AM
Well skull probes, apoths and snipers are all fine and dandy but chaos doesn't get those. :p

HaXxorIzed
10th Jun 05, 3:57 AM
True. Mind you, Chaos got a lot of it's former strats up the arse. :)

Nephilim.
10th Jun 05, 4:46 AM
Heavy Bolters can have some use in larger team games because there's always some light infantry around and basically the longer the range, the better, once you get a lot of people racing around. If you boost them too much just for 1 on 1 they'll be too good for 2v2.

IceCream
10th Jun 05, 6:19 AM
why do you guys waste your time talking about balance issues when relic dosent even listen.

AVD
10th Jun 05, 6:22 AM
We care about the game? We play it and thus balance is something desired? There are serious mod people out there that could implement stuff? Pick one...

Nephilim.
10th Jun 05, 6:23 AM
Why do you waste your time posting to tell us this?

Duhh.h.......

IceCream
10th Jun 05, 6:56 AM
cuz I have nothing else to do,Im at my job surfing the net and my job get's really boring.

Dymo
10th Jun 05, 7:23 AM
Caring about balance is one thing, but a never ending stream of balance items that would give a Dev team of a thousand a headache, is a bit much.

Currently there is issues, but the plasma weapons is not one of them. How about we work on the big glaring ones first. Like say the Chaos Defiler, or the Eldar Brightlance Platform, how about the Eldar Warp Spider for whom the poor Ork bastards, the one race you rarely see anymore, has no answer. You know a real answer, not some theory crafted BS story that someone thought up but never actually proved to work. That kinda answer.

Next thing you know someone will be complaining about how the regular old Space Marines Jock Strap is to tight ffs.

As it is, the game has now become a farse for online team play. Word is the ladder is not much better.

The Eldar are abusing the BL in swarms, a small unit that can replicate as fast, or faster, than they can be destroyed.

The Chaos have been handed the ultimate 3 in 1 weapon platform known as the Defiler and are abusing it too.

The poor bloody Ork. They are simply scared to come out anymore and who can blame them really. Why even bother when your odds are slim to none without some super competent team help, just staying alive. They are a liability in all but the most competent hands. Word is, that breed is nearly extinct. Not even a Zoo specimen left.

It is a shame really. It just isn't any fun getting beat by the same 2-3 units anymore.

I may not be the best there is out there, but it isn't a fair playing feild anymore, actually it is far worse now than ever before and I have played since 1.0.

So yes, what the hell. Fix the Plasma weapons imba first. Oh and be sure and fix the Bolter while your at it. There has to be something wrong with it too. It could have more range, maybe another DPS or 2 vs Landraiders?

:steam: :loco:

IceCream
10th Jun 05, 7:47 AM
Thing is I wish Relic did listen to this balance fourm but clearly their not.See what Ive notice in DoW,there is two reasons why dow it is so unbalanced.One of them races like choas and ork dont have enough units and weapon upgrades to fill those gaps.I think everyone notice Relic put all their effort into Space Marines.

In Starcraft for example each race had many many units to choose from and make different tactics -dow dosent.CSM preds or Defilers,a horde of possessed,eldar-reapers,and bright lances,SM-they have different tactics because they have most units but mostly plasma,and orks get alot of orks and nobs quicly as possible b4 you get owned.See doing the same tactics on a game get's boring then you quit.That's why Starcraft is a legend,you can make up so many different tactics and its how well you handle them.But no one is talking about that issue except what's owning.DoW wont be like 90 percent balanced unless relic adds more than one unit in WA

HaXxorIzed
10th Jun 05, 7:50 AM
Yeah, a lot of units are useless. We know this already. However, you have to balance what you have first. I dunno if you've noticed, but relic just seems to overdo or screw around with balance. Scientific balancing, changing the fewest units at one time and then comparing balance, is what must be done.

Don't expect that point to go away, although sadly it is the root cause of the problem.

AVD
10th Jun 05, 7:55 AM
@ Dymo

If we had one thread only where everybody spoke about everything at the same time your post could have made sense to me...

This is a thread dedicated to plasma though. Sure, there are bigger problems, if plasma is a problem at all, but why shouldn't we duscuss it or analyse it if we want to? This thread does not demand that the devs should fix plasma or the HB NOW!!! It doesn't even conclude that plasma is a problem yet, and I happen to think that HBs could be improved as to make them more viable weapons, which does matter in SM/Chaos vs Eldar/Ork or even in mirror matches. What is wrong with discussing that?

And why shouldn't I post? It's my time, it is interesting to me - I play SM, HBs do happen to be there and are deemed to be important light infantry counter, but everybody seems to be using plasma (me included) - something might be wrong and I want to discuss it. Simply because the Defiler is more broken we should forget about everything else? I'm lost here...

[Edit] This thread hardly stops me from discussing the Defiler as well by the way.

Korbah
10th Jun 05, 8:26 AM
DoW gameplay is broken on so many levels that they only way to get it balanced is to break it all down and systematically build it from the ground up.

Welcome to my world :P.

Plasma incidentally is no longer a mass feature in DoWpro anywhere near the extent it is in 1.3....the answer was to make it less efficient in dps vs light inf and make it cost more for its mobility. HB's are just as good a counters and shouldn't cost as much for their lack of mobility.

There are so many broken useless shite, imba and defunct gameplay that the only answer is to identify it and rebuild ground up. Nobz, eldar vehicles, eldar inf, Chaos in general, WoTE, FJ etc etc etc etc. Almost every unit in the game was flawed to some degree. Until ppl realised that little tweaks won't fix the gameplay you're going to still be here pondering on "How to fix X...."

DoWpro.....my answer.

HaXxorIzed
10th Jun 05, 8:29 AM
Korbah pimping out his mod. Loller. That is a new one. :P

Korbah
10th Jun 05, 8:31 AM
I left the pimping till the end ;)

seriously tho balance is flawed on almost every level of the game....to argue otherwise is complete ignorance

AVD
10th Jun 05, 8:33 AM
@ Korbah

"DoWpro.....my answer."

And one of my hopes. I couldn't care less whether or not a solution is an official one if it fixes the game and enough people play it with it.

Have you experimented with HB setup time and what would happen if you take away setup altogether, but not allow marines to fire their HBs on the run? Or is the solution to just make HBs much cheaper?

And for threads that deal with the officially patched version it is small tweaks that we can hope to get in (I think).

Korbah
10th Jun 05, 8:39 AM
I've left HB's alone....but altered the units they counter.

Nobz are less of a problem due to less HP, DR's have less range and shees still charge less than 1.2.

Plus frags are much more accessible. In all HB's are tricky to use but I'm not apologising for that (its a pro comp mod after all) but are now more cost effective than plasma. To use plasma u pay more for it for the ease of use - its also less effective against both heavy_med and inf_med and inf_high so that HB's presents a more cost effective solution and flamers have more of a role in mirrors.

I'm still tweaking but TBH we're seeing less plasma mass and more flamer + plasma + HB + frag comboes....which is what I was aiming for. Plus WoTE isn't bugged ne more so that's also a bonus. Don't get me wrong i don't want all out HB....i want combined arms and that's what we're seeing more of.

hiteche5
10th Jun 05, 10:03 AM
That's why Starcraft is a legend,you can make up so many different tactics and its how well you handle them.But no one is talking about that issue except what's owning.

Here we go again...Starcraft was a legend after an expansion, 13 patches, battle.net, and 5 years of playtime. I'm not saying DoW is not broken but please stop with the comparisons. There is many things you can do on a DoW battlefield that you can't do in Starcraft either, which by the way is a part of tactics, not just how many different types of units you can make.

Back on topic...Korbah seems to be hitting the nail right on the head. Hb's really are not bad but price is so close to plasma and plasma is SOOOO much better in SOOOO many different situations why bother with HBs once you hit tier 2. Leaving HB's the way they are and upping the price on plasma and tweaking it's DPS against different types would go a long way too.

Think about it, less powerful plasma leads to more tactical moves on the battlefield with HB's trying to setup instead of attack moves. Chaos would probably shift to horrors a little more since a plasma marine is not so uber anymore. Assualts get used more to tie up the HB squads (I would like to see that more often). Frag 'nades becomke more viable to disrupt HB squads. And it's a little more fluffy than seeing 10 tac squads fully loaded with plasma.

Imho plasma should be made to counter heavy_med and heavy_hi. Make it nice and expensive too.

BlueJackal
10th Jun 05, 10:18 AM
Not to mention @ Dymo:

Relic doesn't patch one thing at a time. If they did, that'd be great, we could have little polls about what they should fix this time around...

But since they do it all in one swoop, we might as well get the most fixed that we can.

n0z3k1ll3r
10th Jun 05, 10:33 AM
Relic do listen to their balance forums. They always have, that's rather the problem. The balance changes in 1.3 and for that matter 1.2 basically consisted of EVERYTHING anyone whinged about getting fixed. Simultaneously. Not a good result.

testthewest
10th Jun 05, 11:33 AM
"Uh, no. Plasma games are not games of massing plasma. It's called the sorc, it's called frag grenades, it's called librarians. Go watch some proper mirrors. In mirrors, you have cultists running around capable of tieing units up, scouts, commanders, frag grenades knocking marines down for 2-3 seconds at a time, etcetera. Don't accuse me of ignoring outside factors - you are."

How about opening your eyes? Frag grenades cost 75 power! You will be alot slower at tier2 with grenades, and your SM with grenades will go down fast vs Plasma. To get a librarian you need a Sacred Artifact (55 sec) and a librarian (54sec) and the time for word of the emperor (dunno the exact numbers here...maybe around 30sec?). So your answers come 2,30 minutes too late...
Plasma is a problem, and it will get worse, because people start realising just how broken it is.
Sure defiler and sorc need fixing. And WS-Exarchs and BL, but plasma needs it too. Play some SM mirrors and you will see...

Chris
10th Jun 05, 11:38 AM
The grenades are generally bought after tier 2 is reached.

You are assuming that the game WILL end after the first plasma encounter, which makes anything other than plasma of your own a non-issue. While this does happen, games move onto the Sorc/librarian > vehicles stage just as frequently.

Dymo
10th Jun 05, 12:49 PM
"Not to mention @ Dymo:

Relic doesn't patch one thing at a time. If they did, that'd be great, we could have little polls about what they should fix this time around...

But since they do it all in one swoop, we might as well get the most fixed that we can."

I think noz, as well as yourself, just hit on it and is the reason why I posted what I did.

Relic is listening to well maybe. So we have to be weary of what we gripe about or else you may wake up to find plasma so far up the Tech Tree as to never be reached. ;) Wouldn't want that.

DoW, as an RTS, faces all the same challenges, as those that came before, as well as those that will come after it, due to the fact that it has many units that are produced over a set time period. It is inevitable that as certain upper teir units appear others below them can become quasy redundant. Or people invariably find one unit better than another. Solving that is a hard fix for sure.

I would like to think that we all agree that we do not want, nor need, all of the DoW units to be made the same. So that leaves us with having to deal with some inherent balance issues.

Personaly, I can live with a certain level of that, but feel fustrated playing a game I enjoy while having to deal with certain units that really aren't fairly instituted in the current build.

testthewest
10th Jun 05, 2:52 PM
"You are assuming that the game WILL end after the first plasma encounter, which makes anything other than plasma of your own a non-issue. While this does happen, games move onto the Sorc/librarian > vehicles stage just as frequently."

Not if your opponent is competent. He´ll chase your Marines until you lost alot of them, and then go in your base and kill it. Same time he starts his own Librarian that comes out soon after yours is dead from the plasmafire.
Simply put: the economy blow you take from the first encounter lost, wins the game for the straight plasmatecher.

BlueJackal
10th Jun 05, 3:07 PM
Well, assuming he hits plasma first, you can retreat before he even gets in firing range. He then runs through your base with turrets, and keeps following you... and you keep running until YOU hit tier 2 and can run into Heavy Cover after building plasma, or he begins hitting your base, and then you can sideswipe some of his force with your plasma once its built.

Though it makes me sometimes wish that a squad can hide inside the building after being produced...

Chris
10th Jun 05, 4:02 PM
BLAH it's all theorycraft.

And I think that's really all I have to add from this point on. :p

BlueJackal
10th Jun 05, 4:09 PM
Heh, touche.

HaXxorIzed
10th Jun 05, 6:55 PM
My answers come too late? Learn to play marines properly, come back and then tell me that. Because let me tell you a little secret.

There's something called "I can't get sacred artifact/Pit thingy until tier 2 is up and in the meantime my power is stockpiling. I've just pressed the button to upgrade, hence I cannot do anything from the hq, hence Omg I can't upgrade pop . Whatever shall I do? OMG! Upgrade to frags maybe? :elephant: !"

Or maybe, since you've let that power build up, build the nades just as you are getting plasma, when you just complete tier 2. The)Android's games are a good example of how to get nades nice and early, and a good mass of plasma.

Secondly, as Jackal said, scout. Learn to do so. Scouts are perfect for the role (given they can get plasma as well), as is your commander as chaos. Hell, even cultists do it. Play the game of intelligence. Fight under lp2s, fight in cover, fight near your base so reinforces come earlier. Use your brain and scout.

Onto this issue of plasmamassing and throwing it at you, I doubt it. Just about every game with plasma I've ever seen waits for the sorceror, apocs or librarian. Simply because a plasma attack in mirrors is just as dangerous to you as it is to the person you are pulling it on. If someone knows you are coming, they can respond. It's much safer to wait for the librarian or the sorc, simply because the risks of actually fighting a decent player and losing is suprisingly high.

Because quite frankly, just because you don't know when they are attacked and you get owned by it, that's no excuse. None at all. "Omg I didn't think he would tech to plasma and I got owned!"

Cry me a damned river. If you got outteched, you got beaten. If you made mistakes, you got beaten. If you didn't scout and got hit by a wave of plasma that you didn't even know about, If your opponenet went for a tech that is actually suprisingly risky and you did nothing, if you didn't get frags and he did, guess what?

You

Got

Beaten.

^ Above applies to mirrors.

As I've said so many times, orkses are horribly broken against this kind of thing and eldar already have the perfect counter. it's called reapers.

GRIM Ripper
10th Jun 05, 10:29 PM
Well, assuming he hits plasma first, you can retreat before he even gets in firing range. He then runs through your base with turrets, and keeps following you... and you keep running until YOU hit tier 2 and can run into Heavy Cover after building plasma, or he begins hitting your base, and then you can sideswipe some of his force with your plasma once its built.

its hard to reatreat from a weapon that has 30 range. if he even LOOKS at you, youre already taking heavy fire. not to mention you can run all you want and see how fun it is to get pounded by plasma in the back. no... if you even so much as encounter an army with plasma (and you dont have any) you WILL die, or at LEAST lose 90% of your army in seconds.

LP2s? no problem for plasma that has 30 range, thus outranging them. turrets? if youve got turrets in your base youre much less likely to have the resources for massing plasma thats for sure.

and dont forget, plasma = tier 2 so its not unlikely to have ONE missle squad by this point to really shred your turrets and base while you try to dance (and get owned in the back by the plasma).


If you got outteched, you got beaten.

hmmm ok, outeching by NO MEANS = a win, unless we're talking about plasma. it should not be whoever clicks the tier 2 upgrade first wins like it is close to being bc of plasma (in a mirror match). and its not like you have to pull some risky manouver to get there either.


If you made mistakes, you got beaten.

so it takes a perfect game to win? the beauty of most of DOW is its tactics and micromanagement that can win you the game, even when faced with counters. there are currently 3 units that i can think of that just totally own you if you see them, and offer NO room for mistakes dealing with them... warp spiders vs orks -- plasma vs marines/chaos -- and defilers vs pretty much anything.

BlueJackal
10th Jun 05, 10:44 PM
Ripper, I've often been outteched to a degree by the other player, come back, and won.

I do think that plasma should be nerfed, but there are solutions.

HaXxorIzed
11th Jun 05, 12:17 AM
pathetic attempts at omnislashing fail miserably. Particularly your first example, where I said scout with your commander, who can take plasma hits, or something expendable. As for outteching, stop taking literal examples. If the reason you lost, was because you got outteched, you lost because you got beaten. You were outplayed, or you played the worse game.

If mistakes cost you the game, you got beaten because you made those mistakes. Not because of plasma.

Sps
11th Jun 05, 12:18 AM
plasma needs a nerf vs ork/eldar .

marines are on equal ground, i just dont see why plasma should be pwnij vs light - kinda makes HB obsolite.

Korbah
11th Jun 05, 12:46 AM
Even in mirror's plasma + hero is a no brainer....where's the strategy in that, where's the cost benefit?

Plasma has no con only pros. This undermines the potential of the gameplay.

testthewest
11th Jun 05, 5:15 AM
@HaxxorIzed: There is nothing to learn in this Matchup, and certainly not how to play. Just get to tier2 first and burn him. Plasma owns you fast and your turrets even slower your tech. If you are pilling up energy, you already made a mistake. I even think upgrading LP´s is a mistake, since they go down in seconds, as soon plasma is available.
I dont need to scout, because I dont care what my opponent does, as long as he is SM/CSM and I tech hard. And about the grenades: If you have plasma, you better stand and shot instead of running closer to the enemy just to fire of your pathetic grenades. I rather have the standing accuracy instead.
Believe me: I wish I would be owned by someone that scouts and tries to build the counter (scouts) and micros well, but attack-move Plasma-Marines just owns him.

Korbah
11th Jun 05, 5:46 AM
exactly test...plasma removes the strategy from the matchup.

Nephilim.
11th Jun 05, 5:51 AM
Buffing HB is not a solution to Plasma being too good. As I said earlier, HB have a role in team games (the extra range is nice, and there's always some light infantry in those larger battles), and buffing them will imbalance the game further. Nerf plasma a little but leave them as the obvious desirable weapon against heavy infantry.

Korbah
11th Jun 05, 5:59 AM
Dude your comprehension skills are woeful....noone on this page suggested buffing HB's --> rather nerfing plasma dps slightly (esp against ligh inf) and upping cost.

As for creating imba....bah what's one more?

Nephilim.
11th Jun 05, 6:09 AM
Earlier comments about maybe making HB not having a setup range because of their uselessness in 1v1's. That's what I was commenting on. Yes, I know I'm behind the rate at which this is going :)

AVD
11th Jun 05, 6:13 AM
@ Nephilim

Currently I believe that HBs are almost entirely defensive weapons. They can be used offensively only if there is absolutely nothing to disrupt your troops, not to mention that obviously you can't fire them on the run. For example cutting down the setup time would help HBs to be used more often I believe.

Plasma on the other hand does not suffers from even one of the listed disadvantages of HBs - they requite 0 setup time, they can be fired on the run, they have good range, cost the same, etc.

Why would you prefer HBs now, unless you expect the enemy to come and keep coming and that you would not have to do any dancing whatsoever? I don't prefer HBs, because even though their damage to light infantry is better they don't shoot most of the time, thus their average damage per unit of time in usual situations is actually lower vs light infantry compared to plasma, simply because the enemy WILL exploit the HB long setup time - tie you in CC, grenade you, FS you - whatever. Again - plasma is hardly disruptable at all. Not to mention that it kills commanders well ;)

And the last drop that overflows the cup could be the fact that scouts can use plasma as well - fire it on the run, get out of trouble relatively easier (much faster, no penalty over bonus terrain, etc.) and so on.

Considering all this - why would anybody use HBs if they have the choice to go to plasma?

Korbah has chosen to make plasma more expensive, which is one way, but nerfing plasma I think is not the right direction. I'll tell you why - make HBs fire on the run and have no setup time whatsoever (basically you'll have a light infantry focused plasma) and you most probably won't see any plasma used at all - not until Tier 2.5 at least. People then would scream how HBs are to be nerfed because if you check they do quite nice damage to heavy infantry as well, but because they are so much more difficult to use nobody is actually using them - and for a very good reason.

The problem is not with plasma, at least not damage-wise, not for me.

Nephilim.
11th Jun 05, 6:18 AM
My point is that HB at this point do have a viable role in team games, and that buffing them is NOT a good thing. Plasma on the other hand is just too good everywhere. Thus, I think a nerf for plasma, not a buff to HB, is a good thing.

I'm tired, maybe I'm not coming off clearly.

Korbah
11th Jun 05, 6:46 AM
No we got you...just that your wording suggested that we were proposing a HB buff....which we really weren't.

DivineOne
11th Jun 05, 6:52 AM
nerf to plas vs infantry, not h. infantry..and why your at it, rise the power to 15...and nlower the power cost of the BS, keep the setup time for hbs and don't let them fire on the run, they are siege defensive weapons. also means it is harder to dish out damage to orks when dancing which is a good thing

AVD
11th Jun 05, 6:54 AM
@ Nephilim

I understood your point and disagree with it (to an extent) ;) You come loud and clear - the problem might rather be in the receiver over here.

My point was that one is much better than the other, far from just damage numbers. The problem is not with changing the damage numbers. For me - leave plasma damage numbers the same - tweak the rest if you must. I'll give an example just in case - for me WSs damage vs Ork light infantry is not the main problem - they SHOULD kill light infantry well. If you're going to nerf their damage - do so lightly - they still should own light infantry - that is their purpose in life. Rather for me the problem there is that all of Ork is light infantry (Nobs hardly make THAT much difference) - change that, give Ork heavy infantry troops, don't make WS impotent vs light infantry instead by nerfing their damage numbers, the main problem does not lie with the numbers at all.

Plasma is good vs light infantry just as much as HBs are good vs heavy infantry (looking proportionally at each weapon taken separately) - thus all the people that scream that plasma is too good vs light infantry have moot points for me - HBs are too good vs heavy infantry as well, given that HBs are supposed to be light infantry counter ONLY, right? This is not the point.

The other thing that once you get plasma you automatically beat the enemy - sorry, but if I get Dreads (for example) first and beat you, that doesn't mean that we should nerf them! Plasma is supposed to beat heavy infantry hard - if you are going to change something - change something else - plasma SHOULD kill marines fast!

For me the point is - if you want people to choose between HBs and plasma based on what sort of enemy they will fight - then make them both a viable choice. At the moment HBs are not. Even vs light infantry if you can take plasma instead, actually even if you have to wait and get plasma later, you still would prefer plasma. That is the problem here - for me at least.

testthewest
11th Jun 05, 7:22 AM
"The other thing that once you get plasma you automatically beat the enemy - sorry, but if I get Dreads (for example) first and beat you, that doesn't mean that we should nerf them! Plasma is supposed to beat heavy infantry hard - if you are going to change something - change something else - plasma SHOULD kill marines fast!"

About the first point: If you get dreads, I had more than enough time to get Missle Lauchners (and if I see the first dread I still have some time), so no problem if you beat me with it. Plasma on the other hand needs nerfing in following areas:
Range, dmg to normal infantry and dmg to commanders.
Their dmg to heavy_inf is fine then (if range is 25 i.e.).

HaXxorIzed
11th Jun 05, 8:49 AM
I'm not even going to bother. If you are going to ignore the fact that frag grenades tilt the balance in an even matchup, I'm not even going to bother. You also ignore exactly what I mean by scout. Use your brain and see them coming. (gasp!). Then, when they do come, you have all the extra time to run and do something.

And AVD is totally right. Heavy bolters are that good against Heavy infantry. It's that heavy bolters suck, not that plasma is teh pwn. Up the cost by 5 power and lower damage versus commanders is all the nerf I will ever accept.

testthewest
11th Jun 05, 9:20 AM
I´m surely not the best SM player, but we can have a match, and we´ll see where you get with your grenades...
...HB is as good as DR. They aren´t that weak, but everything short of a autowin button is to bad for you "skillers"...

GRIM Ripper
11th Jun 05, 12:20 PM
Use your brain and see them coming. (gasp!). Then, when they do come, you have all the extra time to run and do something.

thats the ENTIRE point. theres not much of something you can do with that extra time to counter the plasma, other than try your best to get MORE plasma; if youre even a minute behind in teching to plasma it could literally cost you your army. if you see them and run, you will get shot in the back and lose a very large portion of your army just running away. heres the bottom line: plasma leaves no room for outmanouvering or better tactics in a mirror match. if theyve got more plasma, they win.

PLUS, considering teching to plasma is not risky and follows ordinary teching patters, its hard to scout it out unless its a HARD tech to plasma (which is stupid in most cases).

just imagine if a heavy bolter had no setup and could move and shoot! can you imagine what would happen to orks and eldar? it would even be a monster vs marines and chaos as well (20dps to heavy infantry is no slouch). good gosh there would be NO chance for survival. well thats almost exactly what a plasma is now... basically a mobile heavy bolter, only its effective against a different target. how is that fair?

in a mirror match, its automatic death if you have less plasma then them and actually get caught in a fight.


It's that heavy bolters suck, not that plasma is teh pwn.

if they are left as is, there price needs to reflect it (40/30). in MY opinion, its not that heavy bolters are too wuss, but that plasma is too strong. why? bc EVERY other heavy weapon besides plasma in the entire game has some glaring con. name ANY infantry heavy weapon, including exarch weapons and they will have some very important thing keeping them in check. seriously, i challenge you to name one heavy weapon that doesnt have at least ONE major con. of course, not including plasma.

AVD
11th Jun 05, 5:43 PM
@ testthewest

If you want to convince me that as SM (not Chaos) you have no options whatsoever and that if they get plasma you are as good as dead - sorry - I'm not so good as SM either and I don't feel so helpless. In the worst possible case take HBs - they do very nice damage to heavy infantry - more than you obviously think - they are available the moment you get armory in case you missed it (you claim to know they are not bad weapons, but don't seem to use them at all, eh?). Upgrade your scouts to snipers - they do brake SM marines as well - I always get 2 scout squads min and always upgrade them to snipers. If you know where the enemy will be coming from - build a mine field and simulate retreat with a squad if you have to and lead them to it. The field will buy you enough time to mow them down with the HBs. Have you tried ASM? No?

As SM you must be really worse than them to lose, or you are so desperately behind the tech race that it is hopeless anyway and they do deserve to win. Yeah, maybe you will say that they will have sergeants and all - how much more resources for your enemy are we talking about exactly, and how much more time, as all those goodies do take quite a bit of time you know. You can't expect to let them tech up to Tier 2, get all of their squads to plasma, get sergeants as well and you should still have a counter to beat that easily while still being in Tier1 with nothing but an armory? Well, sorry, but if they manage to do all that and you are still not even upgrading your HQ - you should die - they beat you.

If you were playing Chaos I would have been more willing to agree with you, but SM do have options - its not as bad as you put it - sorry. Oh, and grenades do help your scouts to break them too.

Once as SM I beat another SM that got Dreads, termies and even Preds before me and the only thing I had was 2 WWs and nothing but infantry. So, please - there are tricks as SM - don't expect to win in a straight forward offensive if they have out-teched you - expecting to do that is sort of silly.

@ GRIM Ripper

"PLUS, considering teching to plasma is not risky"

Really? You just happen to have all that resources lying around, and there is no risk whatsoever that the enemy might have invested them in vanilla troops and just own you? Teching to plasma does take time and quite a bit of resources, in the meantime they do nothing?

If you take setup time away from the HB but not allow marines to fire it on the run it will not beat DRs at all - it goes far beyond the weapon in the first place. DRs will most probably still beat you even if you could fire it on the run with reduced accuracy just as plasma - I'm serious.

As for Ork - unless you can fire it on the run - it will not be too OP if at all. Currently once they come in CC range and you start running HBs hardly fire again at all - they should be very dumb to let you rest for as long as it takes to set it up and start firing. It has to be tested for sure, but I'm pretty certain that no-setup HBs that can't fire on the run might work well. The current setup of HBs though is a bit on the ridiculous side for me.

DRs might have a setup as well, but they happen to profit from FoF ;)

By all means feel free to disagree with me. Making plasma more expensive might make it, but if you claim that you are so behind the tech race that there is no chance to get it once they start towards you - a bit more expensive plasma will not solve your problem ;)

n0z3k1ll3r
11th Jun 05, 8:49 PM
i challenge you to name one heavy weapon that doesnt have at least ONE major con. of course, not including plasma.Exarch dual deathspinners. Unless "inability to demolish large tanks" is a major con.

Anyway, I'm not convinced HBs suck... I've put them to good use on numerous occasions. Plasma is easier to use but if HBs get used well they can be better, simply from the range bonus. A few HB squads screened by some scouts with flamers is a bugger to do anything much about, even with plasma.

GRIM Ripper
11th Jun 05, 9:21 PM
well, id say a dual deathspinners cons are that it is highly limited (their most glaring con -- a max of only 12 in an entire maxed out spider army with an avatar), takes a while to build an exarch, and they cost a pretty penny.

AVD... youre right just upping the price might not cut the mustard -- although it would make massing plasma much more costly, and it would make it MUCH less viable to be getting mass plasma and vehicles all at the same time like is easily done now due to little power cost in infantry or heavy weapons, ever.

if i had it my way id leave everything as it is but lower their damage to 30dps vs heavy infantry and their range to 25. i dont mind it being an all around weapon as long as it doesnt ABSOLUTELY OWN what it counters... its like the warp spider syndrome. can you imagine what eldar mirror matches would be like if warp spiders were light infantry? it would be instant slaughter of the army which had less warp spiders, and frankly it would be lame -- thats almost exactly like it is with plasma.

Lonewolf64
11th Jun 05, 10:29 PM
Plasma has saved my ass many a time starting from beta...this was always my favorite aproach to completely rape the guys who actually thought they were good because they knew how to rush well...

As for plamsa now, it may be a bit too strong but nothing extremely serious. As for nerfing it they way you guys are talking about (40/30!!!) & decreasing damage output, it would completely unbalance the game. Any changes, if need be, must be very minute changes--otherwise the entire game check and balance system goes out the window!

My advice...1.3 is still fresh so these changes, if any, to plasma won't happen soon. In the meanwhile, try to challenge yourself to new and creative ways to counter plasma. I find that good old Assualt Marines combined with some cost-effective land speeders do the job quite well. Don't believe me?--Try it yourself.

Take Assualt Marines, fly them into the plasma squads to engage them, and then follow up with some easy-to-get land speeders to completely ruin their ranks. The Assualt Marines aren't really there to kill them, just to tie them. If they make a run at the speeders, simply fly them away and come back again.

Good Luck!

HaXxorIzed
11th Jun 05, 10:43 PM
Firstly, a heavy weapon with no weakness. Well, I remember seeing 3 plasma 1 flamer owning a 4 plasma squad, so maybe that could be worth looking at. Flamers have no real weaknessess if used in that way.

No point even arguing with you ripper. If you lack the basic skills to put a scout in front of your entire army so you can see an incoming attack, I'm not even going to bother. Because, you know what, that means you can run before that 30 range plasma is ever used. As for being a mobile heavy bolter, you lose accuracy you know. The heavy weapon is still on a 300 hp marine. It still costs more than any other race's hard counter to marines in the game. As I said, the only reason you see so much plasma is because heavy bolters aren't being used.

As for nerfs suggested, 40/30 is insane. A nerf to commander damage is a good is a nice idea though, as in a plasma massing match, the commander could do a lot more disruption and have a much larger impact on the game.

As for you testthewest, go watch some replays. Try it yourself, they knock marines down for 2-3 seconds and you will have a power surplus when you upgrade to tier 2. Don't be a skeptic, try it in some of your games. Tapping with assault marines/raptors or scouts/cultists is also worthwhile idea. I have no intention of playing you as space marines, because it would hardly be a fair fight et all. Btw, I do give those marines plasma and hand grenades, for the record. Maybe you should understand that. in an EVEN matchup. Lemme help you understand.

Marine builds armoury, techs to tier 2.

WHILE upgrading tier 2, marine has spare power.

Marine buys grenades WHILE upgrading to tier 2 with spare power, or just after.

Marine still has power for the same mass of plasma, as 30+ power of the gens (or whatever rate you have) is still occuring.

See what I am saying? You have some time where power isn't being used. Put it into frag grenades and you will still be able to afford plasma at the end.

Now let me say why I don't think plasma massing is overpowered and why this problem hasn't arisen as much in the past as it is now. In this big game of plasmamass, chaos and space marines bother have counters. Chaos got their counter nerfed sadly - cultist grenade launchers. IF I remember correctly, they knocked marines over. IF they were useful again, I guarantee that plasma would be less effective against chaos because the mass of marines would be knocked over by cultist nades and cut down by some plasmamarines of your own. As for marines, scouts into cc or with different weapon loadouts are the answer. And frags.

As for massing plasma and teching to vehicles,that's actually quite hard. A really hard, fast plasmatech involves 2-3 gens, not nearly enough for vehicles. If you mean tying your plasma into a sorc of librarian, that is believable.

AVD
12th Jun 05, 12:22 AM
@ n0z3k1ll3r

Anyway, I'm not convinced HBs suck... I've put them to good use on numerous occasions. Plasma is easier to use but if HBs get used well they can be better, simply from the range bonus.

HBs don't suck (at least not too bad) on their own (without comparing them to anything) - they suck compared to plasma in regard to their usability.

"A few HB squads screened by some scouts with flamers is a bugger to do anything much about, even with plasma."

That is the only way to use HBs for a truly great effect - as long as your troops do not move at all and are not forced to do so - HBs are great. In other words - defensively only. Once you are forced to dance, run away, etc. HBs don't fire a single shell anymore - SMs can't get away due to their impressive speed and thus you have to trick them really well in order to set the HBs up again at all. Plasma does not have this problem - my whole point was that this is the reason people prefer plasma - even vs light infantry - it fires all the time, HBs don't. They both cost the same - which is sort of unrealistic, but for me on behalf of the HB, not the plasma. For me plasma is perfectly OK as it is - I would definitely agree to a 40/15 price increase - no more though (not if you leave the rest of the game the same). On the other hand changing HB setup time down to a second or half a second will make it more useful without screwing up the balance - it still won't be used succesfully in offensive manner like the plasma - firing on the run makes all the difference here.

My opinion - leave plasma alone, up its power cost by 5 if you REALLY want to, but that will not affect a single thing the original poster talked about.

On the other hand forcing people to buy a very expensive plasma (40/30) will not make things better - not in mirror matches - they could still get enough plasma before you, you know, it will be more expensive for you too, but making the total cost for a plasma marine 90/40 is nuts - how much more expensive should marines get? SM don't exactly get generators for free and there is more to life than mirror matches...

Oh, since nobody is complaining about HBs heavy infantry damage at all - leave plasma light infantry damage alone, will you?

BlueJackal
12th Jun 05, 12:37 AM
Yeah upping their cost isn't really a good idea, IMO. Maybe 40/15... a couple slight nerfs I think would help prevent them from being so overpowering. Would maybe not be *enough*, but it'd be a step in the right direction.

Though for the record, I think any effort with raptors/ASMs is hardly certain. If you're assaulting, it's very hard to time the whole ASM/Raptor jump and marine assault at the same time. God forbid if they're under heavy cover.

If you're under heavy cover... well, you're sorta golden. If you get jumped, you have time to FF the raptors, while taking reduced damage since you're under cover, and they'll have less troops than you. They can't possibly tie up all your squads, unless they went for a rush mentality as opposed to you building a machine pit or something.

If you're on even ground, it might work. But plasma can run and fire, so your ASMs may get shot to hell. The only upside is that if your marines were close enough, you can fire as the enemy flees from ASMs.

n0z3k1ll3r
12th Jun 05, 1:08 AM
Isn't plasma already 40/20?

EDIT: No, no it's not. Could have sworn it was.

BlueJackal
12th Jun 05, 1:09 AM
You are correct.

AVD
12th Jun 05, 1:18 AM
Ummm - no :)

The only thing that costs more than 10 power is rockets - 60/15, but they are most definitely worth the price.

Jackal - he is correct that he is incorrect or what? ;)

HaXxorIzed
12th Jun 05, 2:19 AM
Lolz. But yeah, I agree with AVD on this one. I still don't get why being beaten by someone who has more of your own hard counter is bad though.

BlueJackal
12th Jun 05, 2:39 AM
Heh, for a moment I was sure that Plasma was 40/20 as well... bah!
Posted before he edited his statement.

And that's okay, HaXxorIzed, but there's a dearth of practical counters.
Snipers are useful, certainly, but what does Chaos have? Cultists with plasma, which do half as much damage, and have 1/3rd (or less) the HP, since they don't get bionics? Hell, do they even get the accuracy upgrades?

It's just that plasma pretty much defines the matchup when you've got two races facing off against each other. Sure, vehicles/psykers come into play but even those are more distinctive than plasma marines vrs. plasma chaos marines... There's no other real efficient Tier 1, 2 or 3 infantry that Chaos has to counter them... hell, only SM only have Terminators, which are Tier 3 and require a Relic, and frankly the games where I've seen them fielded are few and far in between.

Like I said with Vertigo, there are graver imbalances, and a mirror match should expect a certain degree of similarity, but this is practically a mirror match scenario for 50% of the game's races... and like I said before, probably more, since Ork make up a woeful percentage of a player base. (I'd give them a try in multiplayer... if I didn't get depressed by the thought of getting owned by any half-decent Eldar player.)

testthewest
12th Jun 05, 2:43 AM
"Marine builds armoury, techs to tier 2.

WHILE upgrading tier 2, marine has spare power.

Marine buys grenades WHILE upgrading to tier 2 with spare power, or just after.

Marine still has power for the same mass of plasma, as 30+ power of the gens (or whatever rate you have) is still occuring.

See what I am saying? You have some time where power isn't being used. Put it into frag grenades and you will still be able to afford plasma at the end."

While I´m upgrading I do the following: Power into heavyweapons upgrade (4 heavys per squad), Barracks: pumping out Squad two and three. The rest is saved to be able to get plasma asap. If I had 25/75 over I have teched too slow.

HaXxorIzed
12th Jun 05, 5:11 AM
Squads to and three have nothing to do with this argument. This is a discussion of power, because 25 req is ignorable on any map, even railway. If you can't spare 75 power, you've either

A. Not harassed enough.
B. Done little.

I've said it a couple of times now, the only reason you see plasma massing matches is because the normal methods of knocking marines on their arse are gone for chaos, and Space Marines have always used scouts with their own weapons loadouts.

Korbah
12th Jun 05, 5:29 AM
You see plasma massing because it is by far the most effective combo when combined with WotE. Nothing counters it for cost not even sorc imba....add in a few rockets and you'll wtfpwn defiler spam too.

Plasma is all pro's no con's. There's no reason to choose HB as a soft counter, no reason to use flamers due to their poor range. There's just no real compelling reason to use anything other than Hero ability + plasma excepting snipers.

testthewest
12th Jun 05, 10:17 AM
"Squads to and three have nothing to do with this argument. "

Aren´t Fa(r)g Grenades researched at the Chapel Barracks? Doesn´t it take a while? A while too long? A while too long to get enough SM in the meantime?

Korbah
12th Jun 05, 10:22 AM
The answer to plasma is a complex one. You need to nerf plasma, make alternatives more viable and also ease the need slightly aka. nob nerf.

You want to see a good implementation of this. Try DoWpro 1.319. Much less plasma massing since its just not cost effective against EVERYTHING. Also more micro required (frags etc) and more alternatives.

BlueJackal
12th Jun 05, 11:18 AM
Well, TesttheWest, most people have squads two and three fielded a bit before they tech, at least squad two.

Lonewolf64
12th Jun 05, 11:34 AM
If you use Landspeeders along with your Assualt Marines then it is complete ownage of all the Plasma Marines...if they try to run the landspeeders fly and cut them off. The Assualt Marines would continue to chop them...I have used this tactic many a time and trust me it works.

The most important thing though is to actually use Landspeeders because they are faster than SM's and do great damage/cost effective.

Vertigo
12th Jun 05, 12:01 PM
Lonewolf64, that's not practical in this discussion. You'll never have time or money to plop down a Machine Cult. You'll be overrrun long before you get your LSes out.

Basically, what is being discussed is massing tons of Tacs while harassing, tech to tier 2, go mass plasma, assault for the win. If someone goes mass plasma at the start of tier 2, they'll be in your base more or less instantly. You'll be dead before that Machine Cult finishes.

BlueJackal
12th Jun 05, 12:43 PM
Not to mention any build which goes ASMs first, or gets ASMs early enough to be able to field enough squads to equal their forces is incredibly vulnerable. Or tech-delayed.

kablam228
12th Jun 05, 1:02 PM
Plasma is only a problem if you havn't effectivly used your money. If you put it into early troops then you should be able to use them as the opponent will have less. 40CSMs to say 20 with plasma. Plus use base units. cultists and scouts!? MICRO is a key here. u could use 20 of ur CSMs to CC then shoot the rest.


If you can't win then run. and tech up. lead the enemy around the map. they will go for ur troops over buildings. if they dnt then u can reinforce. restrengthen and re attack.

Its called being paitent and keeping ur cool. Plasma is not over powered. Its just people wont take the time to think logically how to beat it

edit - Not to mention that if you nerfed that. How could SM counter a mass CSM now!?

Sterling
12th Jun 05, 1:09 PM
Grenades and Flamers. CSMs tend to clump and break really well.

BlueJackal
12th Jun 05, 1:24 PM
Plasma is a problem, Kablam, not because it's unbeatable but that there's very little that counters it besides vehicles and.... more plasma. And this goes for 2 races, not one.

Lonewolf64
12th Jun 05, 1:34 PM
In the case of not having time for vehicles at all, substitute SM's squads with snipers/flamers where you sm squads can use plasma also or just heavy bolters--only as long as your Assualt Marines can keep the Squads tied up.

The scouts will break them from afar or up close and their plasma will become useless, the ASM's will begin to do real damage because they are broken and your SM's will shot them to death even if you have less plasma...

Sterling
12th Jun 05, 1:58 PM
Keeping SM squads broken is a real trick. Unless you get lucky and pick off Sarge first, they tend to jump right back up to 300 morale right away.

Lonewolf64
12th Jun 05, 2:45 PM
Yes, the sarge does give them the moral back, but I have found that usually the combo of AMS's, morale weapons (continuous) and a good steady stream of lead or plasma will kill an only plasma mass.

Even though the sarge will give back morale it will be lost just as quickly because the contiuous stream of morale damage will break them quickly again. (sniper and flamer for best result)

Put your scouts in F2 and flame/sniper them while engaging in melee with ASM's and shooting the hell outta them with vannila.

Sterling
12th Jun 05, 3:12 PM
Unfortunately, that takes almost as much resources as plasma spamming, and is of suspect effectiveness. Especially given the vulnerability of flamer marines. (They charge out front and get shot.)

Lonewolf64
12th Jun 05, 3:51 PM
You misunderstand...there are scouts with flamers and scouts with snipers...never waste marine firepower on flamers if you can avoid it.

Use the marines to shoot them up, ASM's to engage them, and scouts to break morale using snipers and flamers.

Sterling
12th Jun 05, 4:14 PM
Vulnerability of scouts in general, then. And the sheer cost of ASMs.

BlueJackal
12th Jun 05, 4:51 PM
Part of the problem is making them stand and fight. Not to mention they'd have to time their assault decently.

If you have less squads of ASMs than they do plasma marines... you're humped.

HaXxorIzed
12th Jun 05, 5:47 PM
How is plasma cost effective against Light infantry?

Squads two, three = should be up before tier 2, or somewhere around it. Otherwise your opponent is a moron who isn't infiltrating in scouts or harassing you, which you should be doing to them. Chaos ... well they are broken in a lot of respects.

Ie, two viable strats only. Grr. Way to go relic. :/

As I said, nothing wrong wrong with plasma, everything wrong with the counters you can get for it. IE, chaos's one has been nerfed to hell and nobody seems to comprehend that scouts are useful in this discussion. Nobody ever attacks with only plasma, they always get apocs/Lib/sorc to back it up.

Scouts are particularly valuable if they have no commander thanks to infiltrate, which a tech to plasma often lacks, as the basic strat for that is harass, then gen, lp2s, gen, armoury, gen, tier 2, plasma, sorc/lib, rockets, omgwtfpwn.

No commander until very late.

Sterling
12th Jun 05, 7:04 PM
Plasma's cost effective against light infantry because getting a plasma gun effectively doubles a Marine's firepower against light infantry for the cost of another marine. So a full SM squad with full plasma is as effective as a 12-man SM squad with bolters, requires no setup time (unlike HBs, which take forever to set up, and have to repeat if they get knocked on their asses), and can fire on the move.

Vertigo
12th Jun 05, 7:36 PM
Plasma's cost effective against light infantry because getting a plasma gun effectively doubles a Marine's firepower against light infantry for the cost of another marine. So a full SM squad with full plasma is as effective as a 12-man SM squad with bolters, requires no setup time (unlike HBs, which take forever to set up, and have to repeat if they get knocked on their asses), and can fire on the move.

And more range than basic Bolters. And more morale, even for cost.

Yep, that basically sums it up. The problem with Plasma isn't just balance, it's the fact that it obsoletes a weapon in the game. There should be a reason to use HBs after hitting tier 2.

HaXxorIzed
12th Jun 05, 7:45 PM
I'll agree with that. Although I see that more as a failing of heavy bolters than the power of plasma.

Korbah
12th Jun 05, 8:02 PM
Except buff HB's and you'll just have T1 imba.....plasma is the problem here.

Lonewolf64
12th Jun 05, 8:22 PM
No, buffing HB wouldn't do anything in terms or balance. I would keep damage and cost the same but make the setup time very small or none at all, but no firing on the run.

This would keep the game balanced and fix the overusage of plasma.

My aproach works, scouts are very good because they are cheap and you may have numerous groups that will break morale. It would be very hard to ignore all the Assulat Marines and Vanilla firing at them to focus on scouts. Force Commander may be used to tie up at least one squad.

Korbah
12th Jun 05, 9:07 PM
No it wont. HB's with .1sec setup would be imba....guys I've already modding this all completely and my implementation works...really quite damn well. Unless you try DoWpro you won't see any of you ideas working in game (and my nerfing of plasma involves many complementary changes and tweaks....not just a simple dps nerf)

HaXxorIzed
13th Jun 05, 8:19 AM
As chris said, only reason plasma is so prevalent is simple. You have to be mobile to beat eldar, hence mobility of plasma. Once eldar is nerfed, plasma useage in that area will drop. Orks no longer have a strong arm of trakks and rely on poor infantry. Hence, so much plasma. Fix that, less plasma.

Chaos has no cultist nades or horrors as alternate strats. Fix that, chaos works.

Space marines have scouts. But space marine mirrors are going to come down to one decision anyway, just like any other mirror.

Solution? Little needed, maybe a power hike, but lowering damage to commanders will definently make the games a little more interesting.

testthewest
13th Jun 05, 9:07 AM
"As chris said, only reason plasma is so prevalent is simple. You have to be mobile to beat eldar, hence mobility of plasma. Once eldar is nerfed, plasma useage in that area will drop. Orks no longer have a strong arm of trakks and rely on poor infantry. Hence, so much plasma. Fix that, less plasma."

Mobility is good vs everything, especially orcs, that force you to dance your units. I though the OP of eldar has shown it enough that mobility is good vs everything.
And no: dont fix 10 things, just that plasma can stay that way. Simply make plasma worse vs infantry and commanders and drop its range (so that ASM may have a chance).

AVD
13th Jun 05, 9:09 AM
@ Korbah

I would be happy if you could give an example from experience on how would eliminating or reducing of the setup time of HBs unbalance the game. I simply can't figure it out in my mind.

Trying out your mod to see this is not a good advice in this regard as you have changed WAAAAY more than just plasma, way too many factors there that are different so to be able to make a direct comparison I believe.

We are talking about the standard 1.3 balance as it is here (or am I wrong?) and that's what is interesting to me (us). This is not sarcasm in any way - please tell how does reduced HB setup time unbalance the game (assuming HB will not be able to fire on the run). I really believe it is exactly the setup time that makes people avoid HBs and go to plasma, which is simply wrong - it shouldn't be like this.

HBs should be a viable choice throughout the game vs light infantry and not so bloody more difficult to use compared to plasma. Why should the light infantry counter be so much more pain in the @$$ compared to the heavy infantry counter? I just don't get it...

GRIM Ripper
13th Jun 05, 9:36 AM
HBs are fine... they are more in line with all other heavy weapons -- great damage with one major con, their lack of mobility. 30dps to light and 20 to heavy infantry is a lot, and they DO slaughter light infantry exceptionally well while still being excellent against heavy, its just that plasmas numbers are similar (vs opposite targets), are great vs commanders, and are highly mobile -- basically they get 2 HUGE bonuses over a heavy bolter for no cost increase and no cons to compensate. if people can use reapers to great effect despite a setup time and overall MUCH less damage than a heavy bolter, then i think heavy bolters are fine.

in my opinion, buffing one unit to try to balance another is definately taking the wrong steps.

AVD
13th Jun 05, 9:44 AM
@ GRIM Ripper

"its just that plasmas numbers are similar (vs opposite targets), are great vs commanders, and are highly mobile"

Exactly! Why? Why is plasma so much better for the same cost (mobility-wise)? Even scouts can use it! It being a Tier 2 upgrade is not enough! The real question is which weapon is wrong or are both of them such - do you buff HBs by reducing their setup time, or nerf plasma, or little of both? I think plasma is more or less ok, thus I believe that it is HBs that need buff in reducing their setup time - could be wrong of course, it's just that I can't find the proper arguments to prove myself wrong...

And the "damn" DRs do have setup, but unlike marines can FoF and reinforce with their "heavy weapons" on them faster and for less (compared to a HB marine) - give me FoF as SM and you'll never hear me complain about HB anymore ;)

Deen
13th Jun 05, 9:48 AM
I think reducing the setup time on heavy bolters can hurt orks. HBs can chew up both regular boyz and Nob leaders pretty good. I think plasma cost should be increased to 40/20 instead. Or reduce its damage to light infantry/commanders to something like 10-12 dps.

GRIM Ripper
13th Jun 05, 10:14 AM
well, i think HBs are fine, and plasma needs the nerf BC heavy bolters are MUCH more comparable to just about every other heavy weapon in the game in terms of some pros, some cons -- heavy bolters have limited mobility, big shootas are costly and dont have the damage values of other heavy weapons, flamers are short range and do no physical damage, dark reapers are highly specialized with a setup time, etc etc... then you have plasma -- long range, a lot of damage, and mobile. like i said earlier, plasma is the only weapon that has no real disadvantage... its clearly the odd man out when it comes to heavy weapons, not HBs.

heres what i would foresee with a buff in HBs... a lower setup means it would be far easier to push on orks/eldar and remaing offensive minded -- something that thankfully is not easy to pull off bc of heavy bolters setup. their lower setup also means easier dancing. it also means less of a chance for especially orks to react once they see the heavy bolters; less of a chance to close the distance into cc (even one second of extra fire from 4 HBs equals 120 damage). it means that general disruption (farseer, grenades, etc) would be less viable. reapers would have MUCH increased difficulty in fighting this bc the heavy bolters would likely always setup first in an encounter and get a free second of more of shooting (again which is 120 damage with 4 heavy bolters) --

frenchjesus
13th Jun 05, 10:31 AM
AVD, HB slaughter 90% of ork/Eldars infantry. That's why HB cant be buffed without serious reason.
Plasma just need nerf vs Commanders nad maybe light infantry, but i dont want to tech to tiers2 for a worthless heavy weapon neither.

Lonewolf64
13th Jun 05, 2:19 PM
I agree with AVD that plasma is more or less fine...it is a good point that your mod can't be used for judging unless you set it back to 1.3 standard and change just this one variable.

@Frenchjesus
Your arguement that HB's already slaughter Orks and Eldar isn't valid because we aren't changing DPS, just the setup time so HB's won't be useless for anything besides really defensive play. We don't have to completely eliminate setup time, just reduce it significantly.

I think that this should be at least given a fair try because it seems as though this would be a great solution.

n0z3k1ll3r
14th Jun 05, 12:43 AM
Your arguement that HB's already slaughter Orks and Eldar isn't valid because we aren't changing DPS, just the setup time so HB's won't be useless for anything besides really defensive play. We don't have to completely eliminate setup time, just reduce it significantly.It's easily still valid. Against orks you could wreak utter utter havoc with no setup time. Mow down a few squads as they approach, dance with the squads they attack and shoot with the rest. If they swap targets then dance those instead. Setup time prevents this somewhat.

Rapier
14th Jun 05, 12:53 AM
Your arguement that HB's already slaughter Orks and Eldar isn't valid because we aren't changing DPS, just the setup time so HB's won't be useless for anything besides really defensive play. We don't have to completely eliminate setup time, just reduce it significantly.

Orks breed via spores that they give off throughout there life and in there death, these grow into more orks. This is why Orks are so prevalent in the universe and so difficult to eradicate.

If the Imperium could do what you just suggested, Orks would no longer be a threat to the Imperium. :Pike:

Edit: On topic! :p

I think plasma is too strong, not because it's imbalanced, but because its.. not strategically sound. ASM should counter plasma (unless you can avoid being in melee with them). scouts should. Scouts should counter Plasma, (SM with HB, counter scouts with plasma ^^).

Changing plasma could add so much more depth to C/SM vs C/SM. Where as right now it's pretty much, you get plasma, now you have anti-infantry covered, and don't need to worry about infantry any more. You just have to worry about getting not enough or too many missiles.

Lonewolf64
14th Jun 05, 1:03 AM
Hmm, then decrease the setup time but don't completely eradicate it...anyway HB setup time is ridiculous right now.

As for plasma, any major changes shouldn't be made so not to ruin the balance of the game...tiny changes infulence things far more than we can imagine.

I agree that ASM's should counter plasma which actually they can do with some skill and backup (read my previous posts).

I guess this is up to relic to change/fix but for now, keep your minds sharp and find new ways of overcoming this setback to DoW gameplay!

Rapier
14th Jun 05, 1:22 AM
HB set-up time is suffiecent that Orks can't stop attacking without losing half of there remaining army. Orks have to be sure they'll win already (or have no choice), because they can't afford to have to turn around.

If you made HB set up time shorter, then you might put orks into the position where actually seeing the enemy means they die. (Ork chases enemy units > to lp range, has to stop and run, but gets shot to death on the way back. OR. Ork, starts to run straight away and gets shot to death on the retreat).

FUN!

Edit: If your opponent happens to have no lps then you can retreat, by chasing until fighting juice cd has recharged... wow, how cunning and feral these orks are.

frenchjesus
14th Jun 05, 10:28 AM
Your arguement that HB's already slaughter Orks and Eldar isn't valid because we aren't changing DPS, just the setup time so HB's won't be useless for anything besides really defensive play. We don't have to completely eliminate setup time, just reduce it significantly.

How isnt that valid ? If HB can fire way before Boyz can tie them up then the poor Ork will see 3 poor sluggas (what's left of his full squad) meleeing a full marine squad...
HB dont need buff imo, you just need to have a good timing and amixed army to use them correctly.
Btw HB setup time = DR setup time, it's probably not some random coincidence.

aqwerty
14th Jun 05, 10:49 AM
plasma is op
but its not so op as apoth...
plasm and sniper combination is unstopable for eldar u cant teleport ws behined cos the plasma marines will kill them faster then they kill the sniper scouts.if eldar tier 1 gonna get a nerf this also needs a nerf for sure
apoth are so op *16 healing :O

Lonewolf64
14th Jun 05, 2:01 PM
I'm not very adept at Ork but coudn't you use the stormboyz to disrupt HB's easily by just flying them in? I really don't see how that couldn't work. You could aso attatch BM with sluggas and teleport them into CC or even both.

BlueJackal
14th Jun 05, 2:23 PM
That does work and would work. Unless you had to retreat on foot, then the .1 second setup time could be murder.

Lonewolf64
14th Jun 05, 2:26 PM
At least someone sees the logic I see. Just because Orks are CC oriented doesn't mean they woudn't be able to win. This is the whole reason behind fast attack units guys! Use those Stormboyz!!

psychodil
14th Jun 05, 2:33 PM
I would use them more if they could hit moving targets.

BlueJackal
14th Jun 05, 2:44 PM
Goes with ASMs and Raptors...

psychodil
14th Jun 05, 3:10 PM
Agreed. Another reason why PSM are hardly used.

GRIM Ripper
14th Jun 05, 4:15 PM
id use stormboyz if they werent overpriced pieces of crap and couldnt easily be danced to death. not to mention stormboyz cant even beat a marine 1v1 IN CLOSE COMBAT, so if you have less stormboyz then they have marines, they WILL lose (due to equal reinforce times of 10 seconds each) before nob leaders and sergeants.

hiteche5
14th Jun 05, 5:24 PM
HB's are great against Orks. We are forced to use a couple of counters, like Stormboyz and teleportya. But again, compared to plasma, plasma is just so much better and does not cost that much more. That is the whole point of the last couple of pages. It has no disadvantage. HB's do. They look crappy againsty a good player that knows how to tie up squads and stuff but that is the tactical aspects of the game. I like seeing combined arms work. This "top tier stuff should just rule" attitude causes gameplay to stagnate on the battlefield. "Whoa dude just went to tier 2 before me I lose no matter what I have." There should be strategic reasons to go to tier 2 and it should progress naturally up the tree. Plasma is not progression it is a freakin Herculean leap!

Rapier
14th Jun 05, 7:03 PM
I'm not very adept at Ork but coudn't you use the stormboyz to disrupt HB's easily by just flying them in? I really don't see how that couldn't work. You could aso attatch BM with sluggas and teleport them into CC or even both.

If you mass squads with hbs, I have to mass stormboyz in equal number, because 1 squad only ties up 1 squad in cc now. So what do I have left to do the killing if all my units are being used just on tying up?

My Bigmek? But without a supporting unit he loses to FC, if he has a supporting unit then I probably have 1 less unit, since you have either a free unit if I mobbed your FC (which I MUST do) or a free FC if I elected to mob all your units...

Even then marines beat stormboyz in melee as has been pointed out. Additionally when jump troops land they take a moment to get the squad together during which time they just stand there and get shot. Also if you have lower set up time then when I see the lp coming into range you'll get shots off while my guys all try to jump away, which currently you wouldn't get.

Which is exactly my point in my earlier post, didn't you read? :P

Plasma works out better vs Stormboyz because you can fire at other stormboy units while you run, and all your units can do that because they have what? 180% forward firing arc?

The point of this thread however is to demonstate that plasma is too good for a couple of reasons (being too unforgiving and only being countered by more plasma). One of the reasons is that it just totatlly replaced the HB's in situations hwere it might be more tactical and interesting if you had to make a decision.

You probably would still choose plasma against stormboyz, because they disrupt the hb set up time. But it would be better if it was more desirable to choose hb to counter normal orks so that you then need a mixed army… right now if I get stormboyz you'll get plasma (logical progression, plasma counters stormboyz better).

But what do 'I' get, to counter your plasma? It's so good that I can't switch to any other infantry option… as any race except Eldar it's like that, that means I have to choose vehicles or plasma of my own. Except, at least in the case of Orks, mass plasma beats wartracks and wartrukks too.


If, Plasma were weakened against light infantry, then, You would get plasma to counter mass marines/stormboyz. Then I would switch to getting scouts/cultists/normal orks, and you would switch to getting heavy bolters again, creating a need for mixed army tactics…

Which currently plasma doesn’t.

I hope that cleared up some things for anyone that thinks plasma should be left as is. We don't want it to be useless; we want it to fill a more specific role because it encourages better play.

Deen
14th Jun 05, 7:18 PM
Rapier, I agree with you, except on the part of massed plasma beating trukks/trakks.

One trukk, which costs 130/110 can beat Seven plasma marines, which cost 630/70.
If you're going to fight trukks with plasma you are going to need 4 times more money. :)

Rapier
14th Jun 05, 7:22 PM
mmm, but mass plasma Deen, means you kill the vehicle off faster, both Trukks and trakks have less manovurbilty and hp than landspeeders and plasma is an effecive way to deal with those if you have enough of it.

It's not I agree, cost-effective, if you have the bare minimumn required, but it's like ranged vs melee, the more you have ranged, the weaker the melee units (say, banshees) become. and the effect scales up so that it becomes impossible after a certain level of units, to use banshees effectively, even though 1 banshee squad > 1 HB squad, 100 banshee squads < 100 hb squads.

Missiles would be preferable but if you have say, 16 plasma marines, you won't be losing 7 of them to a single wartrukk.

Deen
14th Jun 05, 7:38 PM
Yes, but if you have that many ( 1600 worth o resource) I will not drive up with 1 trukk. I will wait untill I have 2-3 (500-750 worth of resource) and then come and kill of a lot of expencive troops.

I still agree that plasma is too good vs orks and in general, and that it might be hard to get to trukks, and that marine will get missles.
But if he sticks to plasma and ork gets 2-3 trukks out, it gg.

Rapier
14th Jun 05, 8:21 PM
Dunno with that much worth of plasma probaby half your based is smoked.. and ork rebuild slowest of all the races, so they can't afford to get half smoked :p

But we both agree this is pretty much redundant, they would get rockets well in time to counter it. ;)

Lonewolf64
14th Jun 05, 8:44 PM
You don't have to tie up all the squads, just enough of them so that you don't get raped as you run into CC.

When Orks cost-for-cost get into CC w/ marines+plasma you can ruin all of their money by tying up some squads w/ Stormboyz and then teleporting a Big Mek+Sluggas in to help. Then, simply run in with your giant mass of regular Slugga squads and swallow them. With the SM player using so much money on plasma squads (360/40+Sarge) you should be able to run over him with a giant mass of orks if your economy is as good as his (which it should be if you are of equal talents). You would have so many orks in CC with him and his precious plasma that he had put all his money into would be gone.

Please tell me why this wouldn't work, I'm not being sarcastic I just don't understand...if you have the money equivilant of plasma in your orks and you use some of that money for your Stormboyz to tie plasma up for the 10-15 seconds it takes to get your Sluggas into them, you should be fine, just because of the mass of troops you would have.

I mean, isn't that what Orks are all about?

Rapier
14th Jun 05, 8:55 PM
If I can't tie up every single one of your squads, I shall lose, it doesn't matter if you lose more money than I do, you will have units that can come and fight me and I shall have nothing left.

On Top of which, marines with plasma can dance around (run away from...) cc units, so that the cc units barely do any damage, however, the plasma still fires at other units (not the one chasing but ones that are parallel...) so actually even with equal number of squads you'll probably do more damage than the ork will and so he'll still lose.

What you describe is how orks are meant to work in theory, however in practice vs Plasma it comes down to how much damage you can inflict while your fj from docs is on, and if it's enough to mean you win with your foce vs what's left of his. If it isn't you lose... and it's a one shot thing vs plasma in my experiance.

Also because of poor defences and weaker lps, and melee units that can stand and shoot well, orks generally (not always) will have the weaker economy in a standard game.

Edit: A librarian entirely cancels out Fighting Juice too, so actually in msopt situations if you let the game progress to that point, you lost.

Vertigo
14th Jun 05, 9:11 PM
You would have so many orks in CC with him and his precious plasma that he had put all his money into would be gone.

Nope. It seems like that would be true in theory, you've left some factors out.

1) The principle of critical mass. Only ranged fire has this advantage, CC does not. Critical mass is when there is enough ranged fire to basically insta-kill large chunks of a melee army before it ever closes into range. As you increase the sizes of the armies invoved, the advantage slides more towards ranged units. With a few squads of Plasma, SBs can jump in and be pretty much vaporized before landing a blow.

2) Vs. light infantry, Plasma has basically the SAME damage per cost as a standard Bolter. But it has MORE range. So you actually do BETTER on the critical mass effect with Plasma than with standard bolters.

3) Nob Leaders - NLs ARE the core of the Ork army. Bolters aren't so great vs. them, for cost, but Plasma EATS them.

4) Diffusion of fire. Having a few weapons dealing out most of your damage is better than more units dealing less individually, if healing is present. Fewer, stronger weapons is superior to more, weaker weapons, all else being equal.

These advantages are potent. You don't need to upgrade ALL your squads to ALL plasma right away, but it is more cost-effective than just getting more marines. All things in moderation.

When you consider the costs of pop cap increases and such, going Plasma doesn't really lessen the squads you'll have by any significant amount.

Sterling
14th Jun 05, 9:15 PM
Also, there's another advantage of Plasma VS light infantry that I think we're all forgetting about.

It's mobile, so you can move around when using it. When you're using HBs, the entire squad sits where they setup and blaze away at enemy units. Which means the regular bolters only open up when the enemy closes, which is generally too close for the HBs to work well.

When you're using Plasma, the squad can maneuver and fire. Which means you get to use those extra bodies not just as meat shields, but as guns too. Or you can pull back and just use the Plasma.

Yet another reason why Plasma's more flexible and generally a better buy than HBs.

3zekiel
14th Jun 05, 9:50 PM
Vertigo makes his usual definitive points. Plasma's role in the game has changed (as indeed, it has changed the game) fundamentally.

Rapier
14th Jun 05, 10:12 PM
It's good to know Vertigo agrees with me. (Woot ;0)

HaXxorIzed
15th Jun 05, 5:34 AM
Yeah, Plasma > ork cc. Uh, whats knew? The only problem we see this syndrome is because orks no longer have trukks/trakks that early and have to get the orky fort to access the kans. Ie, marines get away with mass plasma. Maybe I'm wrong, but if trakks and other ork failings were fixed, orks would probably have one of the better chances to beat marines using wote. Fighting juice, mob bounds, slightly cheaper boyz, fast moving trakks on the sidelines with improved rokkits in case the marine gets hellfires/dreads. Hell, maybe even arty. Arty is always good against the mass of plasma and rockets with apocs+lib. It's why chaos can break that combo open.

Failure of orks, not a sucess of plasma. As for Wote, well orks are yes, indeed screwed versus that. Everyone is, but in a lot of situations its the ONLY thing marines have going for them. Eldar is always deadly, chaos is always nasty with defilers and the sorc. Although good micro of fj can cancel wote out just as much as wote cancels out juice. But wote needs to make marines go slower when it's activated you can shield your retreat with vehicles (rockets still have setup time) and run.

As for heavy bolters, I'm really not so sure mass plasma is always a good option. I dunno about anyone else, but I'm thinking in some situations, they would be less useful. They aren't that much worse than plasma, they just need an extra bonus to make up for the lack of mobility. Perhaps an upgrade that cuts their setup time would be in order (suspensors, anyone?)

Rapier
15th Jun 05, 5:57 AM
ERRR HaXxorIzed, I'm not sure it's a good idea to balance plasma and hb, by making hb's balanced to be as good as the best hw in the game :P

I would much rather you balanced Plasma to be comparable to HB, tha the other way around, while either way would make C/SM match up s more interesting, one way would totatlly destroy C/SM vs Eldar/Ork, while the other wouldn't have tha tmuch effect (along with some fixes to make Eldar less competative and Ork moreso).

HaXxorIzed
15th Jun 05, 6:03 AM
C/sm versus eldar ork wouldn't be broken, because the upgrade I am thinking of would actually come at around tier 2. This is when Vehicles come out, among other kewl bitz. It would give marines the ability to slowly march on entrenched reapers with artillery support (something that cannot be done in this patch) and ork, well ork suck. The matchups for them are allready broken as it is, as they have very little.

Orks need a complete overhaul. All their counters to entreched heavy weapons suck. Saying that changes will break that matchup isn't really valid, because it's terribly broken as it is BECAUSE of ork faliures. Like crappy stormboyz, expensive regular boyz, a poorly designed population system, nerfed trakks to hell and late, overpriced, slow moving walkers, etcetera.

I know this because playing orks at 1400+ hurts. Oh boy it hurts. :(

Rapier
15th Jun 05, 6:06 AM
hahaha I wondered what rank you'd got your Orks too, gj man ^^

Edit: I wanted a post with some on topic stuff as well ;)

But seriously, I think Plasma is too good at killing.

But let's think about what the ideal would be, in SM vs Sm (just the basic units, we'll leave factors like WoTE and missiles out of it, and ignore FCs).


You have
Scouts
Plasma scouts,
Sniper scouts.
Flamer scouts.

Marines
Plasma marines,
hbolter marines.
Flamer marines.

Asm.

Flamers and sniper scouts are primarily for tipping the balance in close match up but for the sake of completeness, They counter all the possible unit options. Of those listed, snipers counter hbolter marines and plasma marines better (due to the extra range allowing them to be hit back less) while flamers counter asm, marines, scouts, and people with flamers.

Hbolter marines counter all types of scout (plasma scouts least well). They also counter vanilla marines (although these will run into cc they will take more damage on the charge).

Asm, counter sniper scouts, flamers of all types, hbolter marines and normal marines, however they suffer from the CC problems (must be equal squad, critical ranged mass).

Plasma scouts counter ASM, marines of all types (except plasma), scouts of all types.

Plasma marines counter all of the above.

Given that list of options, it's no wonder Plasma marines are the most popular, backed up by plasma scouts. (and in close matches sniper scouts). ~ The only 3 options for dealing with plasma marines.

Imo, it would be nice if it was changed so that, Hb marines countered scouts, asm countered hb marines, and plasma countered asm.

This would add more diversity to your sm match up, after balancing the plasma using races so that they worked in mirror matches you could then look to Ork and Eldar, see what was wrong, and from that make further changes.

I realise this is overly simplified in some respects (A better model for describing DoW is primary/secondary intended targets since, Plasma marines should primary asm,/vanilla marines secondary, hb/flamer marines. Hb marines should be primarmy target scouts, secondary targets marines at range ect. but that model is much more complex to write up for the basic ideas which is what I want to convey).

HaXxorIzed
15th Jun 05, 6:09 AM
That was 1.2 1.3, they are around 1250+ and climbing. I'll probably go play some more games tonite. Nice winrate too. Fighting juice, heavy weapons, dokrush and early harass ftw. Maybe it's just me, but for all the ork faults, at least teching is safer than marines against the dammed mass.

Great thing about having an account for every race is you know how they play. No defilers for you, chaos moron.. :)

WAAAAAGH!

*back to your regular topic, plz.

Btw, you underrate flamer scouts. Use them to flank with infiltrate. If the foe is going all out plasm mass, they will not have sargeants.

AVD
15th Jun 05, 6:39 AM
I definitely don't agree that HBs are just fine as they are setup time-wise. Vs Ork the only time you really profit from them is when they charge you and you have, what - 4-5 seconds (or so) window of opportunity and after that its either CC or dancing time and HBs don't fire a shot anymore... Given the fact that marines don't exactly have the running speed of scouts and thus cannot outrun Orks, how am I to get sufficiently away and setup the HBs again? I just don't get it? Dancing under the nice shadow that LP2s provide in the heat of battle is not what I'm looking for exactly (it hardly makes HBs more useful)...

If I manage to hit critical mass with the HBs - sure - the frontmost marine squad will take some beating while the ones behing him will mow down the Orks, but why should it be like that, this can be said for every ranged weapon...

Plasma on the other hand allows me to shoot on the run, while dancing - over time I will do MORE damage to Orks using plasma, instead of HBs, irrespectively of whether they are charging me and I'm dancing or they run away and I'm shooting them in their back (where in both situations HBs are useless, even negative - a standard bolter will do SOME damage, while they do NONE). Plasma kills NLs on the run as well - faster than HBs for sure. Why should I go to HBs, anyone, and I mean HBs over plasma, if I have the choice?

Nerf plasma too much and what do I get? HBs that shoot in purely defensive situations only and once dancing commences - bleh, and plasma that comes at Tier2, which is supposedly not so good vs heavy infantry (NLs) and is useless vs light? I somehow doubt that nerfing plasma or making it so much more expensive will make people fall in love with HBs out of a sudden.

The more I observe WSs vs Ork (as WSs have 0.1 setup or so and run more or less as fast as marines I think) the more I see that if they don't jump away they hardly make use of their weapons anymore if Orks get in CC and dancing commences as the moment they stop the Orks start chopping their asses off.

HBs with 0.1 setup might be too much, but HBs with their setup time now is too much, but in opposite direction as well. If I'm not set up when I see the Orks charging by the time I start doing so it's dance time...

After reading everything I'm still not convinced I like plasma getting nerfed while HBs staying the same. I'm more willing to see both of them meeting somewhere in the middle somehow, as making HBs as "good" as plasma vs light infantry will be the end of Orks, but making plasma as "bad" as HBs - why would I pay for it then?

TheDeadlyShoe
15th Jun 05, 9:41 AM
Oh pfft. How can you mention critical mass without mentioning FJ, which is a direct counter?

psychodil
16th Jun 05, 8:50 AM
Because your squads are usually broken by the time you get into CC, which means the marine player doesnt even have to dance. He can just melee you and wait until the FJ runs out.

Critical mass is another reason why ranged > Melee.

Dymo
16th Jun 05, 11:56 AM
A possible example of how to leave Plasma as it is but reduce the available numbers based on Squad sizes.

4 man SM squad gets 4 bolters (vanilla)
4 man SM squad gets 4 H-bolters (T2 costs + set-up times)
4 man SM squad gets 3 H-bolters + 1 Plasma (added range and mobility)

6 man SM squad (+ Sarg now) allows a 2 H-bolters + 2 plasma max (the cost of the extra 2 marines plus the Sarge adds to the overall cost of the extra plasma but the Sarge bring his own benefits)

Next available level of H-Weapons upgrade is at a full squad.

8 man SM squad gets 4 bolters + 2 H-bolters + 2 plasma (limited plasma butchering as motion negates the use of HB's)

8 man SM squad (+ Sarg) now allows a 4 bolters + 1 H-bolters + 3 plasma max mix (the cost of the Sarge adds to the overall cost of the extra plasma but the Sarge bring his own benefits)

Numbers can be tweaked but no more than 3 plasma per 8 man squad, or 2 per 4 man, until 6 with a Sarg.

No in between mix option and or no 4 man (+Sarge) for the 3rd plasma weapon.

Tiresias
16th Jun 05, 12:10 PM
seems pointlessly complicated to be honest tbh.

testthewest
16th Jun 05, 12:11 PM
"A possible example of how to leave Plasma as it is but reduce the available numbers based on Squad sizes."

Alot of work, taking options away, just to prevent a little nerf for an OP weapon?

Dymo
16th Jun 05, 12:45 PM
:)

If the real fix was "Just a little nerf", then this thread surely would not have gone on for 14+ pages and all would have been in agreement after the little nerf idea was brought forward on whatever page it was first noted on.

:)

Sterling
16th Jun 05, 12:52 PM
Simple Plasma nerf: Make its cost more in line with Big Shootas (whose abilities it parallels closely), drop damage and range slightly.

AVD
16th Jun 05, 1:01 PM
Is it just me or Big Shootas should be compared to HBs rather than plasma? And if you do compare them to HBs then it is rather easy to see why they cost so much more and why their accuracy is lower... They shoot on the run and have no setup time... ;)

Serverbot
16th Jun 05, 1:11 PM
AVD,

They are one light infantry :) so they should be able to. They die fast anyways...

Only 3 of them per squad.

AVD
16th Jun 05, 1:41 PM
I don't argue that Big Shootas shouldn't be able to fire on the run, I just said that they should be compared to HBs, not plasma - that's all. And I don't want HBs to fire on the run - just less setup time :)

Vertigo
16th Jun 05, 2:03 PM
Cross-race comparisons are usually misleading.

I ask that BSes not be compared to either HBs or Plasma. The BS is different in both role and usage than either HBs or Plasma.

Deen
16th Jun 05, 2:05 PM
You should put that in your sig so you don't have to say it every 3rd post Vertigo ;)