[Eldar] Lets get it on table

[Kargard]

Alright after some comparing i do agree that eldar's have an advantage, in my opinion mostly because of economy to tell the truth - the unit's themselves are mostly counterable alright and i dont think we need to go into them here.

Let's throw in what you think would bit take away the eldar advantage. Now this isnt about guardian rush, this isnt about FoF run away's, it's about what general mechanism need's to be changed for the race so it's more even.


My opinion. Not tested, just a general feeling from the games.

Increase LP1 cost to 100, and perhaps also slow down LP1 build speed a bit. Imo, 80 cost for 60 return with 45 cost builder that build's faster then marine one's and jump's is little off. Increase plasma generator cost to 150 and reduce some upgrade's power cost's. This is to prevent from, in my opinion, too early economy upgrade that's possible with abundance of power.

Reduce guardian squad initial size to 3 and have em cost 90. This is to prevent SM from getting too much ahead with their scout's caping. But dunno how it would work against other races.

As an eldar id be willing to take those hit's, if it still allow's countering of early rushes. That would need to be made in in some way.

Big step? Iam not that sure myself. Generally with eldar, i got a feeling i can throw away lot of unit's - much more then the marines. I often sit on alot of power i just can throw away, too. Generally in late game the cost differences would be minimal, but it would slow the eldar "economy boom" that often allow's you to just toy with the marines if you keep the pressure on them.

[Deen]

I vote for making Fleet of Foot require a Soul Shrine. No other changes. Seems to me like this should balance Eldar pretty well.

[Kargard]

I've said it few times before, you'd have to rework entire race with this change. It's and foundation of every action, every move, every caping. It's a change that would require entire race overhaul, including every starting unit.

[Crunk]

Good idea. If they have all the best economy.teleporting sword wielding peons, best speed advantage, mltiple jumping vehicles, and teleporting invisible buildings that heal you, at least make them more expensive.

no wait, at least make them not the LEAST expensive.

[mlai]

Then how about just making FoF much much more req expensive?

Which means, if you purchase FoF, you ain't rushing. You'll be too busy trying to cap to earn back what you just spent.

Question is, is FoF necessary for Eldar to survive early game... or is it just the bonus win button for expert players?

I think FoF is 1 of the pillars of Eldar uber economy. You can't say "let's fix Eldar eco" then ignore FoF.

[Kargard]

Yeah crunk, i dont see eldar problem as overpowered unit's, rather the ability to field one unit too many.

mlai,the eldar economy is balanced up to work with FoF. That's why scout's and cultist's are cheaper, btw scout's are just as fast as FoFing guardian's. Orc's have differently working economy that's pretty solid already. The cheap and fast LP's and builder's plus the jumps speed it up little too much though, imo.

And iam pretty certain i couldn't hold off enemy rushes without FoF. Just running the banshees in on FoF, for example, already cut's one two member's down. If you didnt have FoF, they'd be laughable unit. No, the FoF is neccessary, i have no doubt about it.

More expensive FoF? Thing is, on map's like blood river, you are already walking thin line with wipe out with every resource point spent toward's troops. Have em reduced more because of expensive FoF and you are going to hit floor fast.

It's different when you rush, but i think guardian rush should be discussed elsewhere, iam trying to focus on eldar's through entire game. Guardian rush is an crap, i never do it, but FoF is used for everything.

Btw iam not trying to kill the suggestion's, just moderating a bit :)

[Inst]

I still like my eldar changes:
Aspect portal 150 res cost.
Fof researched at portal, infiltration at webway assembly.
Banshee charge with call of war, warp spider stone requires one stone to research, soul shrine requires two stones, webway gate now gives 3 vehicle cap and falcon grav tank now three vehicle cap.

[.42.]

It has been said before: Eldar's biggest advantage is that FoF lets them conserve their troops 100 times better than any other army couple that with the best econ ( cheap lps, cheap gens, get the req upgrades way too soon. etc) and you get a race that can maintain a big army while teching.

If you compare that to the orks who have a good econ but troops that die like flies. Orks having an econ better than the marine races is justified since they must constantly replace troops.

Fixes? I'm not really sure but somethings that might help and have been suggested before:
- increase the cost of Eldar buildings
- move back those req upgrades in the tech tree
- delay FoF
- make Eldar troops more fragile, so that FoF makes sence( guardians are the only fragile Eldar troops and they have as much hp as sluggas and sluggas don't have FoF to save them)

[Inst]

Thing is, with good fs use, most rushes can be stopped.

[DukeRustfield]

I had an epiphany today:

The reason Eldar has Fleet of Foot is because their troops are so expensive. Their capping units are very expensive, their aspect units are very expensive. Yeah, they do gobs of death and destruction, but they are all generally ranged (cept banshees, and they are still somewhat pricey).

What this means is, if you ever have less squads than an Eldar, then either you're teching, he's rushing, or something bad happened. When people say Reapers (or whatever) kick ass. I just point out that if you take ANY of your units and turn them CC, you make them do nill. And the counter to this is that Eldar FoF and run away. Then they chase again and tie them up. And it's that dynamic I think they are trying to preserve.

If Eldar didn't have FoF, every race could just use their fodder units (much cheaper than Eldars) to tie up their specialist units and the Eldar would only ever get off a few shots. WS would get off 2 sets from their teleports, then they'd be running around knifing people.

So unless you make a wholesale adjustment to Eldar, reducing cost/dmg/etc so they could have an equal number of squads, then FoF isn't likely going anywhere.

[Sterling]

Um. Don't Eldar units have the best cost/efficiency ratio of any race in the entire game? That kind of outweighs the high cost, especially since any Marine heavy infantry charging into CC with a DR squad is dead before it gets there, and any Marine infantry charging will be wiped out by any half-competent Eldar's Guardians. (And if we're talking Orks, the only race in the game without early Heavy Infantry... You deserve to lose if you're using DRs.)

[DukeRustfield]

It's irrelevant if you have an awesome ratio if it never comes into play. Just ask Orks.

[Chris]

The reason Eldar has Fleet of Foot is because their troops are so expensive.

Generally speaking eldar aspect units cost more than vanilla C/SM units. But vanilla C/SM units don't beat aspect units. C/SM need armoury upgrades to beat aspect units, but then they're losing on a cost basis.

The cost of aspect units is no where near enough to justify the advantage granted by FoF PLUS the uber economy. If eldar economy was sub-par or the units were more expensive then I could understand the need for fleet of foot, but with such a powerful economy (req upgrade at tier 1.5 FFS!) there's little need to treat your troops like they're made out of expensive china.

It's always boggled my mind when people complain about marines massing, when eldar can do it much more efficiently.

[Bigamo]

I agree 10000000% With Kargard this time. The economic boom is the most overpowering thing about eldar.

just one more change from my part... to make eldar worker suit their beneficies it should at least be 100 req, not 45 :/ Remenber that SM servitor do nothing, and even builds slower ^^

[Inst]

I disagree chris- hb are very effective at stopping banshees, and snipers will counter dreapers. For chaos, grenades and horrors.

[smolder]

the Ork Bigga Gen Costs 450 req last time I checked while the Eldar one costs 400 and has more hitpoints! And it has the potential of all Eldar building to be cloaked!

:madashel:

[Sterling]

Actually, Duke, Orks have an absolutely abysmal cost/benefit ratio. They have to pay a lot to get any kind of benefit at all.

[DukeRustfield]

The point is how many squads they have. I'm not talking balance-per-cost, which obviously Eldar are great at. I'm talking squad #.


It's always boggled my mind when people complain about marines massing, when eldar can do it much more efficiently.
Only with Guardians. And if SM masses Scouts or Chaos masses Cultists, they will still have more squads than Eldar will.

[psychodil]

Chris: SM need armoury to compete with aspects

Inst: I disagree, HB and snipers work.


So how do you get heavy bolters and sniper rifles without the armoury then?

[Grabnutz]

I've always wanted to take away the boners teleport ability. You can get in and trash an eldar base, but they can get their builders out and rebuild really quickly with those cheap buildings. Any other race is dead in this situation, unless they have a builder out in a secondary base someplace. Plus it would take away the eldar ability to see who they're fighting before they choose their aspect.

[Kargard]

I see both as interesting part of game Grabnutz, not an disbalance.

[First And Only]

Eldar units are not more expensive. As Chris has pointed out, more expensive than vanilla marines? Yes. More expensive then marines that are equipped to have a fighting chance against these units? No.

Neither are Eldar units fragile.

[Chris]

For chaos, grenades and horrors

Horrors are not a tier 1 counter. I don't care how much cheaper they were made, the sacrificial circle is still an absolute no go in tier 1.

[Slow_Runner]

I would definately raise the price of the bonesinger. Also some form of adjustment to LPs and generators seems just, especially when compared to Orks. Ork LP upgrade grants only a more effecitve gun. No additional hp or better range, just a better gun. Eldar gets a LP that has 700 more hp, and the gun is at the same level with the Ork LP2 plus the initial LP is cheaper. Also Eldar generators are cheaper than Ork generators (150 vs 135)but they have better hitpoints (750 vs 1200). Marines/Chaos get the toughest but also the most expensive LPs and generators in the game.

[Dymo]

How about taking away the Bonesingers ability to fight? With teleport, he should not also be able to fight other troops. Just let him scout and or build but not fight too.

[DukeRustfield]

More expensive then marines that are equipped to have a fighting chance against these units? No.
If any vanilla SM/Chaos goes CC against Eldar, they win.

[Sterling]

The fact that any Eldar player who lets a SM player CC him deserves to instantly lose the game is beside the point...

(FoF away, shoot him in the face, FoF away, shoot him in the face, rinse and repeat.)

[Vertigo]

(FoF away, shoot him in the face, FoF away, shoot him in the face, rinse and repeat.)

That doesn't ALWAYS happen.




Occasionally they shoot him in the crotch. Ya know, for variety. Then they go kill some puppies. Green, fungus-like puppies.

[Chris]

Don't forget that when the marines are fleeing they can neither be shot in the face or crotch, but they can be shot in the arse.

[mlai]

Nah they just FoF in front of the fleeing marines then turn around to shoot them in the crotch.

Penis envy and all.

[Sterling]

I stand corrected.

Or lie rolling around in laughter. One or the other!

[Jetmech Jr.]

Unrelated to the Eldar Econ issue, how would having the Farseer's disruption animation affect her own units do for Eldar Early game balance?

[DukeRustfield]

Unrelated to the Eldar Econ issue, how would having the Farseer's disruption animation affect her own units do for Eldar Early game balance?
Take a look at D-cannons from 1.2 to 1.3 and ask that.

[h2o]

the same as an early sm flamer would have as its shot through half its own squad. change that then i will change the disruption from farseer to hit eldar warriors, but seems as though its a physic attack i doubt she is thinking of hitting her own troops more of a shock wave that the eye can see but the body cannot feel !

fof is needed for eldar no doubt banshee's are now in dire need of them as they need to get inot close combat fast ,and having your only heavy inf counter that needs a 2 second set up which has no real cc damage at all is needed ! to keep a distance between themselfs and the attacking force unlike marines who can be equipped with plasma or HB's but also do great cc damage,

i think without fof eldar units once in combat would basically be a shoot till you die unit !

i agree the economeny is fast but i feel eldar need this fast economey they make the wrong choice of aspect warrior to build and eldar in trouble unlike marines who just choose the weapon they neeed ! againt marines most eldar choose reapers as there aspect but faced with an army of plasma and sniper scouts eldar are in trouble !

most arguments for the eldar econ is based on 1 v 1 games but to balence a game you need to look at the other factors.

example 4 v 4 on burial grounds your eldar your opponent is orks and sm, now ok you build spiders to deal with orks but you get attecked by a sm guy, eldar need the economeny to make availbe either aspect to counter just like the armory allows you to choose which weapons upgrade to give your marines !

some of will say the ponit is to scout your enemy well with eldar you can either send a suicide builder via teleport into the closest base, but this is not always the person that attacks you or using a ranger squad with infiltration.

by getting infitration and rangers you have spent the money you would need on your first aspect or skipped oyour farseer !

[.42.]

i think without fof eldar units once in combat would basically be a shoot till you die unit !
The thing is that, that is the case for most of the units of the other races.

When the other races meet an army they can't beat they lose most of their units. When Eldar meet a more powerfull army they take some shots at it and then FoF away taking minimal losses. Does that seem fair?

Eldar should be given the worst economy in the game if they are going to have FoF.

PS if you chose the wrong aspect that is your own fault and should lose because of it. FoF already let's eldar erase most of their tactical mistakes their economy should not be geared towards erasing their stratigic mistakes too.

[Sterling]

i think without fof eldar units once in combat would basically be a shoot till you die unit !


Like every other race's units, you mean?

[Chaz]

Slow_Runner, instead of gimping the Eldar LP, I would suggest that the Ork LP be changed somehow. It makes no sense to nerf an Eldar building that gets the same advantage every other race's LP does (Orks aside). Honestly, the Orks are trying to stop bullets, lasers, and warheads with planks of wood, it's no wonder their bases vanish quickly.

H20, In a 4vs4, you have to remember that that also means _you_ have allies. While your WS deal with the Orks, one of your allies can aid you against the SM. So that argument is not valid; that's just bad team work.

The FoF needs a drawback of somekind. To my knowledge it doesn't have any negative reprecussions. It provides the Eldar player a way to save resources and units with nothing lost. A cool down time, slow HP drain, or just making that bad accuracy stick with the squad for half a minute after FoF is turned off would at least mean they'd have to use judgement when deciding whether or not to activate FoF to flee.

[admiral_the]

Add 100 req to Aspect Portal, Add 20 req to builders, increase LPs and gen cost by 20. That should slow them down at the start and not fundamentally change anything.

Not enough req to guardian rush but enough to guardian defend (taking into account travel times).

[vjghost]

I think FoF can be changed a bit, and it can decrease a retreating efectivity. When even one member of FoFed unit attacks in CC or is attacked in CC (even without hit - attack is sufficient) FoF switch off. So it become micro hell to FoF unit from fast assault squads etc., but still usable and it gives a small buff to Banshees ;)

[Kargard]

100 req for aspect is nonsense, eldar's already pay for aspect gem's , so the actual price can be often even higher then other's barrack's. Seriously the point is to get eldar's even, not nerf them to worst race around. Same thing with the worst economy in game thing, that'd practically force all eldar's to constantly use FoF as you describe. Belive it or not but there are eldar's that actually stand and fight..id make it more on current marine level, with some overall tweak's to upgrade's cost's to reflect it.



Like every other race's units, you mean?

Yeah exactly Sterling.. can you think up anything more boring then race that's same as other race's unit's?

[iamthedave]

"can you think up anything more boring then race that's same as other race's unit's?"

The current DOW league table?

[Sterling]

Well, I'm more wondering why Eldar should be the only ones to have the absolutely massive advantage of being able to retreat from combat without penalty, fast enough to be able to set up and devour any pursuit. Especially given their insane cost efficiency. So tell me, why should they be able to?

Also, are you claiming that removing FoF would make them exactly like every other race's units? If so, that seems to imply deeper problems with the Eldar.

[Penitent]

I agree with kargard's suggestion that their economy needs to be nerfed more than anything. They are mere token changes however that wouldn't change much, especially since he made the capping units less expensive to compensate for his nerfs.

[Kargard]

Dont forget the cap on those unit's would stay same. The reduced price would only allow you to get aspect squad to counter early rush while still building LP's at new price. You'd still have less guardian's then you have now and you'd still have same number of squad's because of infantry cap. And the slower LP building would mean even bigger econ income degradation. I think that allow's for about 60-90 resource's saved from guardian's(and losing about twice that on LP's) so you can actually buy an aspect squad. So no, id say that wouldnt be step back again.

It's not that i disagree with that Sterling, but all the suggestion's about FoF i read are really unrealistic. FoF in soul shrine? Please. Cooldown? How does that stop you from running, iam supposing it would be only few second's because the battle's go real fast. High FoF cost? And what will save your butt from early rushes? Slightly higher FoF cost? And that changes what?
Any of that change's require's two aspect's, ranger's and farseer to be reworked, and probably not slightly either. For example high FoF cost = about 50% reduction on both banshee and warp spider gemstone - why? Because you need FoF against all race's, and you need WS or banshees out in timeif you are to counter early marine/orc/eldar rush. Unless you turtle behind LP's, but that should be option, not an necessity. So it seem's to me whatever you do about FoF, you end up fixing other end again, and nothing change's much. Imo, eldar's in early game aren't that overwhelming, they are in mid-game when they superb economy kick's in.

Or the cooldown. Nice, but every good eldar will learn to micro well enough that you won't even notice difference from now. In all modesty, eldar even now require's lot of good timing in micro already, so i dont think that one helps.

Move to soul shrine - demented, rush will kill you bad, CC unit's will slaughter everything, unless you make guardian's really tough like SpS suggest's..and that mean's overhauling everything again..

If you hard-wire one ability into race, it's very difficult to change it unless you rework the race from scratch. All the FoF nerfer's are right, but they got no real idea what to do about it either. Unless you do entire race overhaul like Sps suggest's - and somehow i dont think relic will feel like it, judging from past patches.

And yeah i do suggest eldar's without FoF are much like other race's, only weaker. I dont know what you mean by problem's - if guardian's sit and shoot instead of running around like crazed mayfly, of course they will be more like marine squad's then now. They sure as hell wont be anything resembling eldar style of fight, so question is total balance or diversity here.

[Sterling]

Eldar style of fighting? What, exploiting IMBA? :screwy:

Also, a cooldown would work quite nicely. Sure, they'd be able to run from combat... Once. But once they stopped running and the enemy caught up with them, they wouldn't be able to repeat the performance for a while.

And Eldar troops, even without FoF, are generally stronger than other races' troops for the amount of money you pay for them. You get incredible cost efficiency and the ability to retreat your entire army from battle without any penalty whenever you like. One of the two has to go.

[AVD]

After reading this thread I started wondering - is there anything uglier in this game than Eldar players screaming to hell if somebody suggests even the slightliest change to anything that might make Eldar more realistic in any Tier, in any respect, vs any race?

People bring such ridiculous arguments to defend the status quo it's amazing!

- FoF is not to be touched or delayed, Eldar needs it as it is (to kick everybody's butt that is), can you imagine - Eldar might actually lose a squad if they make a mistake without it, UNACCEPTABLE!?!
- economy is not to be touched as well - Eldar are sooooo fragile AND expensive,
- their troops are MORE expensive, God forbid if they ever need to build more than one aspect throughout the game to win (especially vs. Orks!),
- their builders are perfectly OK - they need to be cheaper, fight, teleport and build faster (hey, why the hell do they require pop?),
- their buildings need to be cheaper, especially the generators and LPs - how else would they manage rushes (who is rushing who is a different topic altogether),
- the aspect portal will ruin Eldar play if made more expensive, ridiculous - it's expensive as it is!
- something is wrong with BLs? Really?
- some even want to buff DRs in other threads (HBs and ASM/Raptors/SBs slaughter them!!!),
- and so on and on and on...

What can I say - there is nothing wrong with Eldar!

[Kargard]

AVD, go rant somewhere else. This entire thread started with suggestion for nerf, in case you didn't notice. And non-eldar player's all too often got head up their bottom and all they can say is "imba" but never what to do about it. Like you just did. Write something constuctive or kiss my butt, over and out.


Eldar style of fighting? What, exploiting IMBA?

Actually, yes Sterling. I play RTS since starcraft and always there's some disbalance that stay's simply because it's in the theme for the race. I think the more important part is making any race perfectly beatable, and it is a question if FoF change is the only way to do it for eldar. Of course, if relic want to rework eldar's, iam up for it - but iam skeptical they will.

As for what has to go, i belive the economy nerf suggestion would reduce the effeciency you talk about. Part of efficiency of eldar army is more unit's then marine economy handle's and faster losses replacement then marine economy handle's. Tone down economy and the eldar will need the FoF runaway's as hell, because few losses and goodbye, instead of today's hmmm moore guardian's i got too much req anyway..

[Little Raven]

100 req for aspect is nonsense, eldar's already pay for aspect gem's , so the actual price can be often even higher then other's barrack's. Seriously the point is to get eldar's even, not nerf them to worst race around. Same thing with the worst economy in game thing, that'd practically force all eldar's to constantly use FoF as you describe. Belive it or not but there are eldar's that actually stand and fight..id make it more on current marine level, with some overall tweak's to upgrade's cost's to reflect it.



Yeah exactly Sterling.. can you think up anything more boring then race that's same as other race's unit's?But don't you see? You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You want Eldar to have a strong enough economy that they can 'stand up and fight' if they want to, but also to have FoF so they can 'be different from everyone else.'

But if you give Eldar both options, then you end up with what we have: A race that can combine both aspects and totally dominate everyone else. And we end up with a ladder full of Eldar players. Boring.

It seems to me that one of these things has to go, with pros and cons each way. The Eldar take a big hit to their economy and are forced to FoF around to preserve troops. That keeps a very distinct play style for the Eldar, but means that a good Eldar player will have to use FoF, otherwise he'll lose too many troops. The FoF is vastly diminished. The Eldar keep their economy and don't have to worry about FoF so much, but end up playing more like the other races.If you really want to see balance, you're going to have to pick your poison. Because as long as the Eldar have both, the balance situation isn't going to change.

[Kargard]

Sure, then i pick econ nerf anytime, because FoF is all what is eldar army in W40K about. Iam just saying, let's try not to overnerf it, or we got another bucketload of whines and another forced patch.

[AVD]

@ Kargard

I'm too sorry if you understood what I wrote as a personal attack to your thread - it wasn't, anything beyond that is you assuming things on my behalf.

"Write something constuctive or kiss my butt, over and out."

Flaming is hardly a sign of intelligence. I happen to think that I did what you give away as an advice - it's called sarcasm, as to why - I'll leave that up to you.

And I play games since '82, but that doesn't mean a thing whatsoever ;)

I happen to disagree with you on a point of your original post, as most Eldar units, being specialists, are NOT mostly counterable, as "Eldar player's all too often got head up their bottom and all they can say is 'non-imba' " (if I may paraphrase you) - it's called spam and I happen to think it works quite well for Eldar.

The fact that you recommended a nerf to something doesn't mean that other Eldar players in general don't feel like overprotective to a ridiculous degree.

If you'd like to see this as a personal attack to you (which it is not) it is your problem - nothing I can do about it.

[Bigamo]

i am 100% with a HUGE economic nerf, then all the other could be counterble...


And sure some price correction like the fighter, teleporter, harasser super fastbuild builder for 45req, in my opinion this unit shows all the imba eldar are.

SM

75 for a unit that build

ELDAR

45 for a unit that build faster, fights, teleport, and pay less to repair (repairing faster for sure lol)

[n1tr4m]

I think you are right with you're suggestion that econ is the biggest problem with being eldar. Becuase despite all whine. What it comes down to in my games is. Early game, pretty even. Then in the borderline between early and mid the econ kicks in and you just walk straight through most opposition. Makeing G-squads 3 units and 90 req, will that really change anything?
Gen 150, LP1 100. That could slow it all down a bit.
Perhaps also adding +10 req to LP2 too...

[Deen]

Can someone please explain to me how moving FoF to the soul shrine will make Eldar too weak?

Other races dont have FoF and they can rush and defend from rushes just fine. Eldar should be able to do that as well since their troops are MORE cost efficient.

Lack of early FoF will also put a small dent in their economy.

And then when they do get FoF (tier 1.5 instead of tier 1 as it is now) they can still run around.

Or if they want FoF right away, nobody is stopping them from building a soul shrine right away. Marines and orks have to build their armory/PoG right away because without heavy weapons/NobLs they can't compete with eldar aspect troops. Plus eldar get super exarches with soul shrine, more reason to build it early.

So you either guardian rush with no FoF, or get it right away and guardian rush a bit later with FoF.

[noise_pollution]

Please try to be reasonable people. I agree with nerfing eldar but making up random nerf suggestions isnt gonna work... we have to identify the problem so that it can be fixed.

I'd say the biggest problem right now is the guardian rush which is too efficient and cheap.. so:

- removing bonesinger teleport would make it impossible to choose aspect.. so it would make the guardian rush our only option... nobody wants that right?

- nerfing fof would hurt (a lot) banshees and reapers... so it would also help to spread the guardian rush strat..

honestly i think that making he guardian mass less viable would make the eldar economic advantage crumble down.. but that would have to be tested

also people would have to use banshees vs chaos and sm ... that would even out the running away problem... as the banshees cant shoot running marines.
vs orcs the spiders should be nerfed.

[hiteche5]

AVD, go rant somewhere else. This entire thread started with suggestion for nerf, in case you didn't notice. And non-eldar player's all too often got head up their bottom and all they can say is "imba" but never what to do about it. Like you just did. Write something constuctive or kiss my butt, over and out.

Read his post again, many players (including AVD) have suggested things, but ELDAR players always dismiss it. There are Eldar players in this thread that have disputed your small economy nerf, why don't you address them!?!

I for one like the suggestion of nerfing thier economy a little. Currently the Eldar economy is VERY strong and their is no reason it should be that way.

[Demon_Eyes]

"Kargard"
Sure, then i pick econ nerf anytime, because FoF is all what is eldar army in W40K about.

AFAIK in TT the Eldar Fleet of Foot ability doesn't increase move distance, it allows them to move the maximum distance possible for a foot troop regardless of terrain.

FoF modifier is 1.5x16=24 scout movement speed is 20 no cover movement modifier. Honestly I think FoF modifier should be addition instead of multiplication and have the no cover movement modifier so they move like scouts when its activated, add aspect portal requirement and increase cost slightly, it is a race wide ability for all but 1 troop type. The economy isn't that big of a deal, knock down the gift bonus to 40 for LP/Gen and its ratio of cost/bonus are close enough to other races, their LP and Gen buildings are easier to take down than C/SM.

[BlueJackal]

Well, would moving FoF to the Soul Shrine be that great an idea?

If nothing else, the Farseer practically depends on it.

[Deen]

Yes, she does need it I suppose. Maybe she should start with it, no research needed?

[Vertigo]

I wonder...

Observation: FoF is part of the racial design of Eldar, this is true. It's supposed to be about mobility.

Observation: The primary problem with FoF is that it prevents Eldar from ever losing units from a bad tactical error. It also makes setup times on DR much less important than they would otherwise be.

Theory: Would increasing damage (and/or morale) TAKEN during FoF help balance it, instead? The FS would likely be excempt?

That way, you can use it to FoF to a battle, but if you FoF out you risk taking more casualties. FoFing DRs around the flanks of a battle would become MUCH harder.

[hiteche5]

Why all the arguing about where it should go? It is a race wide ability and it should be available at the HQ. Just make them pay for it! It should be restrictive enough so that for them to get it they have to go early gen or without the FS.


The economy isn't that big of a deal, knock down the gift bonus to 40 for LP/Gen and its ratio of cost/bonus are close enough to other races, their LP and Gen buildings are easier to take down than C/SM.

As it stands now they can get 3 squads, an awesome ability that benefits a whole army, a good hero with three abilities, 2 builders that teleport, fight, and work at a decent rate and a gen, and research an aspect stone, on starting req. They can get to the other LP's fast and build them faster and cheaper than everyone else. They pay very little for power, the soul shrine which is the equivalent of armory/PoG is slightly more expensive in power (but you should have power from that early gen) but less in req. The Webway provides you very awesome mobility, healing, the ability to move and cloak buildings, provides vehicle cap, builds 2 very awesome plats and allows for map control in ways no other race can come close to matching...but you only pay 100 for it. Sorry, but Eldar get a good amount for what they pay out. There a very few bad investments. The only thing that comes close to a major mistake is getting a wrong aspect in the beginning and I NEVER see that.

Let a SM player get an early gen...he can lose a game based on that decision, so can Chaos. Orks, we have a little more flexibility but we live on our economy more than anyone, when you rely on mass numbers and buildings that fall over when pissed on, you had better make them cheap!

[Rakshasa72]

Actually in the TT FoF allows Eldar to move an average of 50% faster and upto 2 times faster then ordinary foot troops by sacrificing the ability to shoot. The real reason why FoF is less effective in the TT game is a combination of weapon ranges, unlimited sight distance and, rate of fire. In the TT game FoF is such an integral part of the Eldar basic abilities I wondered why we even have to research it in the RTS. I think that balancing Eldar along the lines of economy would be more fruitfull but, needs to be handled carefully.

[psychodil]

The thing that annoys me with FoF is that when you retreat they can catch you up and get all of their troops within firing range quickly and really punish any mistakes you make. Of course I play orks so theres not much point me retreating, my sluggas will die on the charrge in or retreating, it makes no difference.

I dont really see why they should be able to shoot at all when using FoF.

[Sterling]

Damage taken doesn't work so hot either, unless ranges and movement/damage rates are tweaked very carefully - it's conceivable that they could move out of range before the extra damage becomes significant.

I'm also very amused by how the Eldar players are threatening to do nothing but Guardian rush if any changes are made to their race.

Not being able to shoot at all, as psycho suggests, is probably also necessary... Though that doesn't help so much when they're retreating, as can be seen with DRs - they can't shoot when FoFing, and they have a setup cost... And they can still constantly retreat-setup-shoot-retreat-setup-shoot for ages against a superior force, doing insane damage all the while.

[Kargard]

Nothing against you personally AVD, but that sarcasm post was just out of place. While i do tend to be little wild in discussion, i think of pure sarcasm post as a -last- resort when you are so bitter with people you cant hold it back. Putting it like that in middle of discussion really tickles nerve, more then what i could just pass. Of course there are people with less insight into some thing's, but that's no reason to pull sarcasm on them. If anything, it will only make it worse, and i think not that many other race player's would be all neutral if the situation was reversed.

Deen really, without FoF you are dead in start. All the marine has to do is engage all guardian's in CC and shoot them with remaining troops as they try to avoid. Eldar's, except banshee's, are incredibly weak CC wise, probably even more then on TT. That's why the FoF is your life line in start.

Well said i think Vertigo. Iam the stand-up eldar type, so more damage on running - fine with me. Or something else, but yeah, FoF just equal's Eldar army, they'd lose all character if it was removed/pushed back.

Oh and on tabletop, FoF is an ability that allow's you to roll D6 instead of shooting and unit move's additional distance you rolled. It has nothing to do with rough terrain, i think you are thinking tyranid hormagaunt ability.

hitech5 - i have no idea why you have so different view, but for me, eldar defending early rush is desperate battle to survive, and iam no toothpick. So i really dunno.

Unit's not being able to shoot during FoF - i agree if we get instant turn off FoF for all selected unit's. If i have to deselect FoF one by one, it will cut on way too much damage and lose me the fight. But that's not really fixing the run away problem, is it.

[Demon_Eyes]

Well that is two people saying FoF is more distance, no shooting, so I guess I confused that one somwhere, then again that is a whole shooting phase they are losing which has no equivilant detriment in DoW.

I just had an idea though: what if FoF was a normal special ability instead of a toggle? seems like that would change things dramatically and force Eldar to be much more careful about its use and eliminate the FoF DR retreat loop problem, think I will try that in my mod actually, I will look in to the no-fire option as well.

[Kargard]

I guess it could work if it had low enough re-use time. That's important because without FoF being ready often enough, enemy can just CC you to death when you run out of FoF.

[Sterling]

So again, why are Eldar the only ones that get a free "get out of CC free" card, instead of needing to spend req on screening troops?

[Kargard]

oh for.. didnt i just say they are total crap in close combat? That's pretty good reason on it's own.

Charge marines with marine's - they kill equal number
Charge marine's with slugga's - slugga's win but lose quite a few too

Charge guardians with marine's - the marine's will slaughter them, mostly without single loss
Charge guardian with slugga's - the slugga's will slaughter them, with some minimal loss

So what's so hard to understand, if you make eldar critically weak to CC combat, you have to give them ability to avoid CC combat.

[Chris]

So what's so hard to understand, if you make eldar critically weak to CC combat, you have to give them ability to avoid CC combat.

Um no, you don't. This is the biggest bloody problem with eldar. On one hand they (Relic) give them all these 'weaknesses' which make you think "whoa they must be hard to play!" and then on the other they go "here's a bunch of cool abilities that totally nullify all your weaknesses, enjoy!".

Every other race has weaknesses that are fully exploitable and they have to suck it up. Eldar however get a whole bunch of 'get out of jail free' cards.

[Kargard]

So does that mean you think eldar should not be able to avoid CC combat? And pray tell me how exactly would they stop marine/orc rush using CC?

[Chris]

No they should be able to avoid it, just not so easily compared to everyone else. Marine and chaos players have had to try and avoid melee combat since beta stages of the game. It's not as if not having FoF will suddenly make your troops unable to move AT ALL... which incidently is what it would take for tactical marines to ever be able to kill guardians in CC.

[Sterling]

Never mind Sluggas, for that matter... And the fact that Eldar can throw up a pretty damn good, cheap screening force in the form of Banshees.

In other words, the problem is that, while Eldar are theoretically weak against CC right now, it is actually next to impossible to engage them in CC.

[Kargard]

Or you can just follow up close behind the guardian squad, shooting them with bolter's. The second they stop you start meleeing them, forcing them to move again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Marine's have bigger problem's avoiding melee, but they also helluva harder in melee then guardian's. For them, staying and meleeing is a choice, they'll do solid damage, even to slugga's. Staying and meleeing with guardian's is just a big waste.

But we aren't talking weak Sterling. We are talking goddamn-fugging-totally-impossible to melee with them. That mean's if you could, you'd own them like no tommorow. That's not fair, either.

Banshee's dont break it, first, banshee's arent as cheap and effective as you think, second, eldar should have option to pick which aspect they prefer, instead of being forced to use banshee's every single time. Third, once HB's are out, they are obsolete, making that really lot of wasted req. Generally, banshee's are the black sheep's on eldar list right now.

[Asuka]

You know what i hate not beening able to get close to Eldar with Orks since they just turn and run what can i do other than build shoota's but they have the worst hit rate in the game if i rember right meaning FOF allows eldar to avoid like 90% of shoota damage and big shoota's cost to much to use and still have a bad hit rate.

Stormboyz come in to late and cost to much to be a good counter and FOF outruns them unless you jump or use there speed boost.

BM teleport is ok but as befor they just turn and run with out taking next to any damage unless you warp in BM with 16 shoota's with big shoota's witch costs a ton of req and power only to be owned then by a few WS's.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Big Shootas are AWESOME weapons. Fire on the move+Good damage+killer morale damage+Sick range. My favorite infantry upgrade weapon.

[Sterling]

Shame its 40/30 for a weapon that gets stuck on a platform that evaporates under fire. It's a glass cannon - it may do lots of damage, but it won't do it for long, and making one puts a serious hurt on your economy.

[Jetmech Jr.]

IMO, they're worth it, though I'm not an expert Ork player. It's funny watching Guardians evaporate before 4-6 Big Shootas.

[Chaz]

Eldar are useless in CC but have the ability to completely negate this as a disadvantage in the form of FoF.

By this logic; Orks should all have a forcefield that reduces the ranged damage taken by 90%, because they get completely eaten alive in a shoot out.

See the problem?

[fuggles]

danm FOF, fed up of discussing it. Make eldar much weaker, stop health regeneration whilst Fof, have Fof cause damage ala forced labour, Cool down period on FoF.

Any of these better??

[deepThink]

How about make FOF still give 50% accuracy 3 seconds after you turn it off? That way you can't catch up to fleeing units and suddenly open fire, yet run away when needed?

[MoschBoy]

By this logic; Orks should all have a forcefield that reduces the ranged damage taken by 90%, because they get completely eaten alive in a shoot out.

sounds like an idea ;)

a challenge to all eldar players : try to play with them without FoF. i did it once (i didnt know where the upgrade was - my first time with eldar). it was vs ork, and i won WITHOUT FoF and WITHOUT WS! can u imagine that? in the first time with eldar? (1300 area Automatch)

[n0z3k1ll3r]

How about just hp nerfing practically everything Eldar have? That way:

a) All those "OMG ELDAR ARE FRAGILE!!111" posts actually become accurate for a change
b) FoF actually becomes a necessity rather than a luxury.

[Kargard]

Let's not and say we did.
Well, dark reaper's HP hit probably would be in place. Banshee's already die too fast and so do guardian's..WS are about ok HP i think.
And what luxury is FoF on map's like outer reaches or valley of khorne where you have to stand and have to fight and if you leg it you just probably lost large part of map?

[fuggles]

I dont think reapers should have FoF as they are heavy weapons, no one has problems with banshees being too good. Really it's just guardians that need the hp hit. If they don't like it, they could always get in one of the falcons that's always in my base!

[Alamar]

I think a sure fire way to tell any balance to eldar would work would be seeing people go back to building a banshee squad first and playing aggresive with it. As is the hard counter units are so powerfull that it's not worth it to do so. Also even if guardians were weaker you would still rush and decap with FoF and even further criple your enemy echo and further your own.

DR and WS both have what I would consider uber heavy weapons. DR do more damage to heavy infantry than plasma and WS make HB fire look like grot-guns.

To me the biggest problem with DR is that there infantry_med. Neither HB or plasma does that good damage to them. This should be changed I think. I have been playing edlar lately to see if I was just a biased chaos player. My views are further reinforced. I can use DR to counter sm,csm, and yes even other eldar. Especially seeing how he will go WS everytime and my DR will own his WS. YES DR do own WS.

As for the echo advantage I agree that LP need to cost 100 and that power needs to cost more. Sure there buildings are weaker but that's a racial disadvantage...everyrace needs these...don't counteract that disadvantage with low cost.

And my last problem....the ub3r building of the game:the webway. Does anyother building do so many things? With the ability to make a single BL out of each one you have a massive hard counter to vehicles within minutes. I think that you should only be able to build webways in your control zones...not everywhere on the map.

[Sterling]

How about make FOF still give 50% accuracy 3 seconds after you turn it off? That way you can't catch up to fleeing units and suddenly open fire, yet run away when needed?
I'm not sure 3 seconds would be enough. DRs have, what, 1.5 setup time? That's short enough that they can be set up again by the time their pursuers come within range, and then blow them apart. Maybe 50% accuracy for an amount of time proportional to the amount of time you had FoF on? So, say, you FoF away for ten seconds, then you get 50% accuracy for another five.

[Kargard]

Sure Alamar, but you ignoring the other trait's of DR/WS. Both are crap in CC, unlike say marine squad. DR has 2 second's setup time, plasma can fire on move. HB has 35 range, WS has 24. So it's not that simple as you make it sound, all unit's got their plus and minus.

DR's are infantry_high, and they die to HB's pretty much normally. And please, DR dont own WS, you just played against someone who didnt know how to counter :)

They cant rush guardian's and decap if you put LP on the point being uncapped. Some people consider it cheesy, but i dont, as long as you dont spam LP all over. Marine's can do the same with scout's so that's hardly argument either.

And banshee is just another hard counter unit, against marine's. If they didnt remove the charge modifier, eldar's would be still using it.

And i think the main complain here is about guardian's Sterling, not DR.

[Chris]

DR do more damage to heavy infantry than plasma

Plasma does almost double the damage of the reaper launcher (20dps vs 38dps), can be fired on the move and is more effective vs light infantry than the reaper launcher. Unfortunately charging plasma tac marines at reapers is still utter suicide without Word Of The Emperor for Marines or Sorcerer with Doombolt and Chains for Chaos, not to mention plasma tac marines cost 90/10 vs reaper 80/0. Also, all aspect warriors including reapers are infantry_high.

EDIT: Incidently, DR do well against WS if DR hit critical mass first and are set up. Unfortunately even with FoF they can't compete with WS mobility and when the WS exarch shows up, it gets really ugly. Banshees are definately not a hard counter unit, they're a generalist CC unit which does fairly similar damage against all infantry types except commander and infantry_heavy_high.

[Vertigo]

IIRC, Banshees do pretty crap damage vs. monster_med, a puzzling deficit.

[.42.]

If it was easy to run down WS and DR and force them in CC no one would be complaining. But they have teleport and fof. Teleport is probably easier to deal with since it has a recharge Fof is impossible to counter.

DR's will always beat HB marines in a shoot out because they have 100 more hp than marines, so much for the "hard hitting but fragile" crap. I remember Sleign did the math for WS vs DR and in a equal res shoot out the DR's win.

Oh yeah it was really fair that banshees's charge stacked with fof so that they moved at ridiculous speeds and would always rech cc even when under heavy fire.

Seriously we've heard the "all you have to do is charge in to CC" a million times and all the top players have tried it.

Eldar is OP everyone knows it. (at least everyone that plays random, SM, CSM or orks)

[Chris]

IIRC, Banshees do pretty crap damage vs. monster_med, a puzzling deficit.

Oh yes that too. Eldar infantry overall is weak against demons, I suppose this might have been done for 'fluff' reasons with eldar's constant battle with the forces of chaos etc. etc. Unfortunately, Demons are 1) unviable when they'd be most useful and B) crappy now that they're 'scaled down'. Now that horrors only have 450hp and PSMs have only 562hp, the 19dps from the dark reapers doesn't really seem so bad.

[psychodil]

"Also, all aspect warriors including reapers are infantry_high.
"

Chris, WS are inf_heavy_med.

[Kargard]

Hmm banshee's universal counter? Against eldar i dont use em much, once you get to WS exarch they drop like mayflies. Against orc's, they cant outmelee the mass..although yeah i did use em even against orc's.. but generally id say they best to counter marine's..and the speed with which they drop marine's deserve's hard counter designation, imo :)

[psychodil]

He meant they do good damage to all infantry types, so it is not a hard counter.

[.42.]

Edit: this is in respose to Kagard's original post that said something like: "we all know that eldar is OP, how many times do you people have to say it. Let's think of ways to fix them"
/Edit

Your post reads like you don't think they are. With the charge in to CC and no one uses banshees anymore because they don't travel at warp speed.

To fix them?
I'd say:
1) delay fof for a bit by making it more expensive or moving it to SS or what ever, this nerfs the guardian rush

2) either give them a) an econ on par with c/sm or that is worse or b) reduce the hp's of their troops. Right now Eldar can rush and tech at the same time with minimal risk because of FoF and their superior econ. I think Eldar should be forced to make the same hard decisions the other races must make the balance between tech and military strength. So if they are going to keep their econ they should lose troops as much as orks, whose superior econ is balanced by their troop losses. The other option is for the same goal give them a worse econ and they can save their troops with FoF and "superior micro".

I'd probably go with giving them a worse econ. Kind of fits fluff wise too since eldar are a dying race it should be hard to requisition more troops.

Ofcourse these are just my own wild untested theories and it's really up to Relic.

[Kargard]

I will just repeat this all over - move the FoF to soul shrine and eldar's are dead meat when the rush comes.

Agreed on the econ though.

[Sterling]

So you're saying that, unless an Eldar player Guardian rushes, they cannot defend against a rush? :wtf2:

[Demon_Eyes]

Tried the FoF ability change to time based from toggle based and it seems to work just fine, actually the cool part is it reduces micro of FoF by half while also making it a bit more fair for the other races. Started with a 10 second duration and 60 second recharge time (speed demon ability for Raptors is the same but 7 sec duration) also I never used raptors in TT, anyone remember the stats for it in TT? Just wondering since it has no accuracy penalty but I don't remember any of the jump troop/skimmers abilities like that allowing for firing (ie maybe it should have a accuracy penalty).

[hiteche5]

I don't understand how not having FoF in first the minute of the game means you can't beat back a rush. Same amount of troops are out, you still negate CC by running away, you still have the FS disrupt, you still have LPs on every thing because of your good economy so you don't get decapped. The only difference this makes in the Eldar play style is you have to commit to your own rushes and you pay for your mistakes before you get the Shrine.

[Kargard]

You wouldnt have more then 3 unreinforced guardians and one unreinforced aspect squad. Now what happen's, is that all guardian's get tied up in melee. Hero will neutralize farseer who has no chance without FoF, or kill closest squad, turning back to engage farseer should she try to join in. Banshee's would, by the way, lose most of squad while they try to close in, then get killed with help of hero.Dark reaper's,240+120 cost squad, would now be reduced to run around duty. Id probably just tie all squads with scout's and shoot them with marine's, as they wouldnt be able to dance at all now, while having hero take down LP, practically killing any chance of holding that point. and god forbid if enemy bring's more to add to melee/gun you while you desperately try to avoid the enemy. Practically, you'd force eldar to build massive force in the start every single time, bigger then any other race need's, and turtle behind LP2. So if enemy teched, goodbye mother goose.

And if you still dont get it, go play few hundred eldar game's, why dont ya..

Sterling that's what you think, and iam getting tired of question's you asking just to confirm your own belief. Iam saying, if enemy rushes you, and you dont have FoF, you are going down. It has nothing to do with guardian rush. Do i need to spell it for you? :yas:

[Chaz]

A Raptor in the TT is a regular Chaos space marine with the Daemonic flight and visage abilities. They also have the ability to hit and run which allows them to escape close combat after the assault phase (3d6 move instead of the basic 6"). There is no TT ability to suddenly become super fast in any other instance, at least not that I can see in the 4th edition Chaos code; It's probably something Relic came up with for diversity.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Banshees would lose most of their squad to something the enemy got in the time it took you to build 3 Gu squads (unreinforced) and 1 banshee squad (unreinforced)? Err... no they wouldn't. Banshees have 5/6 of the hp of a tac marine, and I don't see those dying in seconds. The different armour type counts for absolutely NOTHING that early in the game. Banshees supposed hp weakness is ridiculously overrated, they take stacks from HBs and WS but thats about it.

[Kargard]

Dude, banshee without FoF charging into marines = lot of dead banshee's. Iam not gonna argue about obvious.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Restating something over and over again doesn't make it true. If thats the case then why aren't his marines that are charging into your troops ending up with "lots of dead marines"?

[Chris]

BECAUSE man! Marines are like totally indestructable and eldar are like totally fragile. This one time I was playing DoW and I sneezed on my monitor and my whole army DIED.

-_-

Banshees take 7.78(?)dps from marines while they charge in and move at speed 24(?), with 260hp? Marines take 4.7dps from guardians while they charge in at speed 16(?), with 300hp. Not 100% sure on those numbers.

[hiteche5]

Now what happen's, is that all guardian's get tied up in melee. Hero will neutralize farseer who has no chance without FoF, or kill closest squad, turning back to engage farseer should she try to join in.

Again if you run you negate CC damage, banshees will mop the floor with the scouts, FS disrupts while guardians shoot...you still reinforce faster and shoot well. You are theorycrafting this situation. You might need an LP2 to help you out and you will take losses...LIKE EVERYONE ELSE DOES. You can still dance you just take losses doing it. You act like if one Eldar is allowed to die in the first five minutes of the game it is heresy.


Practically, you'd force eldar to build massive force in the start every single time, bigger then any other race need's, and turtle behind LP2. So if enemy teched, goodbye mother goose.

And if you still dont get it, go play few hundred eldar game's, why dont ya..

Funny you say this....play ORK and you get back to me.

[Kargard]

Wait are you in here with me? We are debating a scenario Banshee's without FoF (scroll up to see it). So charge speed 12. That's bit different isnt it Chris :)

Umm and who's theorycrafting hitech5? Banshee's kill scout's? And like how about that tactical/ FC shooting em/beating them? You need to have all tactical's tied up if you wanna use banshee's. FS disrupt? She doesnt have a FoF, remember? Cant close in without getting intercepted by FC. So no knockback. So what's left? LP2? and dont you think any race should be able to win an initial fight -without- LP2, if you spend same req cost as enemy?

[Demon_Eyes]

Early game banshee's don't die fast to standard marines, its only after armory. That much is certain and I am sure anyone who has been banshee rushed can attest that they don't die fast to standard tac bolter fire.

Regarding the speed demon ability, didn't know if it was from TT or not but pretty much everything is "based" from TT in DoW. Some skimmer and other fast attack type unit choices that had a standard move of 12 had an ability to sacrifice their shooting phase and move 1d6 over normal movement or double. I can't remember if it was different with some units or not but I recall this being a standard movement option for hoverbikes. I was just wondering if this was where the speed demon ability was comming from, regardless I think it would be appropraite to give it a accuracy penalty as they can run down any troop even a broken jump/fof troop with it on.

Edit:
Oh and mindwar slows, don't forget that used on the enemy commander will slow enough to alow a few disrupts regardless of FoF and does a rediculous amount of damage, while FC/CL weapon affects don't neutralize the FS since when attacking a squad her area disrupts will knock them away as well as knocking down the squad she is attacking.

[Sterling]

And if we're talking the point where you only have three Guardian squads, a FS, and a Banshee squad, they're not going to have more than a couple squads of unreinforced Tac marines. (Plus Scouts)

[Chris]

So charge speed 12. That's bit different isnt it Chris :)


I was under the impression that all units moved at 16 base speed? The main thing people are forgetting is that marines chasing guardians will be shooting them with bolters as they chase, something banshees won't have the luxery of doing. I totally agree that FoF @ soul shrine is pretty dumb. Eldar still wouldn't be as useless as you're liking to make out though, at least in my opinion. You're theorycrafting from the point of view that the marine player is making all the right moves and the eldar player is only reacting. There's too many 'Ifs or maybes' to try and therycraft this situation.

Let's just forget about FoF @ soulshrine and move on.

[hiteche5]

Yes Banshees kill scouts very fast....guardians are free to shoot. FS can get off three spells that can turn a battle real quick form range...an FC can't kill a FS if the far seer never closes the FC. It takes a sec to put a squad on it's back and then you run again. The FC's damage is negated. You can dance him without FoF.


So what's left? LP2? and dont you think any race should be able to win an initial fight -without- LP2, if you spend same req cost as enemy?

No I'm saying you can make an LP2 like many other races do when faced with a rushing Ork for example. And you have more req to do it because your initial LPs are cheaper!

You act like you have only one member in your squads too. You have 3 guardian squads, an aspect squad and a Farseer. Aren't you reinforcing? Don't you have cover at start? All of these factors means you are not going to get crushed by every rush...you are assuming you will. If you got rushed at your base you would still have to stand your ground at some point wouldn't you? You could not FoF away and stay away till the enemy left could you?

You act like these marines are coming with full squads with heavy bolters! A normal SM rush is 3-4 scout rush with FC or 2 scout rush with one tac and FC. If that rush did come you had more than enough time to get a shrine. WTF...you can get a shrine on initial req if you sacrifice the aspect squad!

[n0z3k1ll3r]

an FC can't kill a FS if the far seer never closes the FC. It takes a sec to put a squad on it's back and then you run again. The FC's damage is negated. You can dance him without FoF.Before Kargard argues with this, I've seen it done before by an absolute n00b (hate using the term, but he was probably the WORST player I've ever fought) and even he managed to pull it off.

[Kargard]

16? Eh, possible, i thought FoF double's speed so when you said 24, i thought normal speed must be 12..

Farseer's spell cannot turn battle from range, all eldar's can attest for that. You need to hit the same squad being nuked with spell's with banshee's/DR, or the effect isnt that impressive.
If scout's get engaged by banshee's, you just dance em back while shooting them with bolter's. Banshee's without FoF are just joke.

About reinforcing - thanks for bringing it up. Yeah, you wont reinforce that much, because for all the talk about eldar economy, you cant possibly reinforce 3x guardian's 1x banshee's. From my experience, you can reinforce 1x guardian and 1x banshee. That mean's 2x guardian stay at 4 member squad, which isnt that hot. You could get them to 9's during fight, but that would mean taking almost 0 castualties, so probably not happening..

And without FoF, it doesnt "take a sec" to put a squad on their back. Even as you close in, FC closes on you. When you finally reach the squad, there's no guarantee you wont do just directional push - and that the FC wont stun you the second you finish it. The FC's damage isnt negated, you can shoot with bolter as you chase. Not too much damage, but will wear out FS's health out without her being able to do a thing about it.
Dude if you can't catch un-FoFed farseer..there's something wrong. For one you can move the tactical it's trying to hit toward FC, and as FS follow's he'll throw in fast stun..

Normal marine rush is about 1x 8 marine, 1 x 4 marine, 2-3 scouts, FC. Depends on map, i get this on outer reaches for instance. On blood river it's less, but then you have less then what i described (minus the aspect or the farseer).

But yeah, let's kill the soul shrine idea already, start another thread if it's important for you..i just think it wouldn't work, to say it very decently :).

[Asuka]

Bah Jetmech Jr i was sort of making it seem a tad worse than it was but still Big shoota's cost far to much when shoota boyz go down like flys

[Demon_Eyes]

Standard speed for troops is 16, FoF is a speed multiplier of 1.5 so add 50% to the current speed attribute, 16x1.5=24.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Kargard. Simple maths here.

The SM you describe has:


about 1x 8 marine, 1 x 4 marine, 2-3 scouts, FC.So thats at least:
400 + 200 + 180 + 260 req
or 1040 req


You have without reinforcement:
3*guardian + 1*banshee + 1*FS

360 + 200 + 240 req
or 800 req

So that's 240 req minimum you can be spending on something. You can add 8 guardians for example, 3 in two squads and 2 in the third.

And that's discounting discrepencies in barracks cost, LP costs, etc, most of which favour Eldar further. So you can probably grab at least another couple of Guardians from that. I'd bet I could grab a win with that sort of force, even without FoF.

[Kargard]

Except you missed the banshee gem stone cost, 100 req. Eldar's also usually get power generator right after aspect portal, that's another 135 req.

Total 1035 for eldar. Came out nice :)

Let's see you need at last two more banshee's and 5 more guardian's at start of fight to have a fighting chance, imo. That's 250 more req so all the difference's in builder's/ LP get sucked up. You have to micro good, and you need FoF for that.

[Demon_Eyes]

If your going power gen then you need to add it to SM as well, its not necessary for either side with those troop configs. For every marine SM can field eldar can field a banshee in costs, the difference is guardians vs scouts.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Except you missed the banshee gem stone cost, 100 req. Eldar's also usually get power generator right after aspect portal, that's another 135 req.The stone cost is discountable. AP + Stone = Barracks cost more or less. So no can't count that.

The power gen is a luxury. You don't HAVE to build it. I could equally say SM player MIGHT have built one of his 165 req gens. Putting his cost even higher.

[Kargard]

And that's where you are wrong. You need plasma generator as eldar for WS in case enemy is eldar/orc. You can go jump over with bonesinger to check on race, but that will slow down your BO considerably, unless you get another bonesinger for 45.. personally i dont jump with bonesinger, unless it's blood river/valley of khorne, so i guess it's pretty debatable whether you need to build generator or not.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

And that's where you are wrong. You need plasma generator as eldar for WS in case enemy is eldar/orc.Not immediately you don't. Against another Eldar player then yes maybe you do now, but that's a mirror so they're in the same position after the change. vs Ork... I've held orks of countless times with just Guardians, so no you don't NEED WS there. Indeed I basically never get them vs Orks any more... I'd rather have a challenging game.

[Kargard]

Iam not saying your are totally wrong, but i have to challenge statement that without FoF everything will be fine for eldar in start game. It just wont, unless you get some real rework on unit's. Like this.

- FoF is now soul shrine upgrade. MfW moved into webway gateway
- Banshee charge put back in. It get's triggered on range 24, to avoid being shredded by bolter fire during close-up.
- Dark reaper melee boosted considerably(300%?) to prevent being tied up by small unit's indefinitely
- Farseer has FoF as initial ability
- Ranger's always move at FoF speed's initially, similiary to scout's
- Eldar economy reworked to reflect slower caping speed

Put that in and i can start to see eldar game without FoF working. And i probably missed something too.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

300% boost to DR melee would be absurd... they'd be meleeing Tac Marines to death. Their melee isn't as bad as you might think, Reapers will beat say scout squads thrown at them.

I don't see that Eldar need their economy reworked for it either... they'd STILL have the best economy in the game.

[Kargard]

Scout's on overwatch will tie 3 reaper's for entire fight. And no way they'd be meleeing marine's to death, 300% would put them at roughly 30 hp per hit - that'd be nasty if there was 8 of them like marine's, 3-5 wouldnt be that overwhelming. Anyway 300% is just a guess, the point is they should be able to wipe out scout's if they have no FoF.

And you think that noze, but we dont know just how big nerf would the removal of FoF mean. d

[Sterling]

It's kind of amusing how terrified Eldar players are that other players might actually be able to take advantage of the currently completely theoretical Eldar weaknesses.

Also, who's talking about removing FoF now?

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Scout's on overwatch will tie 3 reaper's for entire fight.
And you think that noze, but we dont know just how big nerf would the removal of FoF mean.The Scout overwatch is costing them cash. Sides, you can screen reapers with Guardians usually, the pathing gets the scouts a bit fuddled. Or you can just focus fire the Guards at them.

Reapers need to be tied up, it's their weakness. I'd support a melee damage boost IF you were prepared to sacrifice some hp for it, but I don't see you doing that.

[hiteche5]

No one said remove it. We just said move it over a building. And Kargard is bursting a vein becasuse it means....

*gasp*

Eldar players can get rushed. We are trying to convince him that they won't die to every rush without FoF. But he won't hear it. I find it equally funny that every unit in the Eldar arsenal is useless because it can't run at 24 speed for 3-4 minutes at the start of the game.

[Sterling]

Actually, Kar's claiming that you guys want it removed: "we dont know just how big nerf would the removal of FoF mean."

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Most eldar players equate delaying of FoF to removal of FoF. Never understood why.

[Kargard]

The Scout overwatch is costing them cash. Sides, you can screen reapers with Guardians usually, the pathing gets the scouts a bit fuddled. Or you can just focus fire the Guards at them.

Cash..you mean like compared to 240 req DR's cost you? In initial rush you can have 3x somewhat reinforced guardian squad and 1x DR. That's 530(19 guardians) + 260(3 DR) + 240(FS) = 1030
The tactic they use on me is 3x scout's, 1x tactical, FC = 350(9 scout's) + 400(8x marine) + 260(FC) = 1055
one scout tie DR, two tie guardian's, tactical shoot's one small guardian squad (wiping it pretty fast), FC does the little jig - either banging closest guardian's or intercepting FS going after tactical. It depend's heavily on micro skill's here, but it's pretty retarded that your only aspect squad is for nothing.


Reapers need to be tied up, it's their weakness. I'd support a melee damage boost IF you were prepared to sacrifice some hp for it, but I don't see you doing that.

Shrug you expect me to think about everything? :) i dont know how it would stack up, so the HP nerf would be possible - really thought, who can tell without testing..

True hitech5, i wont hear it because i think you are wrong. You can be mistaken at times, you know? :) And i meant removal from early game.

[Deen]

First, 300% increase to reaper melee damage would give them the same damage banshees have vs marines.
How would you like 400 HP banshees with heavy bolters?

Second, WHY do banshees, with 250 hp, require FoF ( or a charge modifier that is triggered at range 24 !!, which is even better than FoF) to get into melee while sluggas, with 175 hp (more of them die on approach), are stuck with regular walking??

[hiteche5]

True hitech5, i wont hear it because i think you are wrong. You can be mistaken at times, you know? And i meant removal from early game.

Does it occur to you that you may be wrong as well? You can be mistaken too (and we have seen that) I'm big enough to admit it. I've done that before...have you?

Why don't you try not using FoF for 4 minutes? And post the replay of you getting slaughtered because it is "so vital" to the Eldar early game. Just try it.

[Kargard]

Does it occur to you that you may be wrong as well? You can be mistaken too (and we have seen that) I'm big enough to admit it. I've done that before...have you?

Yep.


Why don't you try not using FoF for 4 minutes? And post the replay of you getting slaughtered because it is "so vital" to the Eldar early game. Just try it.
Ok. Given the mood around forums here, ill probalby get thousand advices how to play better and everyone will say it prove's nothing. :)

Deen, id say experienced player like you should be able to answer yourself.
Orc's are slow because they are all melee and once they reach target, shit hit's the fan.
Reaper's could be effective only against infantry, not against infantry heavy. Also, small squad size would prevent them from being any good in melee.

[Sterling]

Kar, Sluggas don't reach their target. There's a reason why Ork players have basically given up on CC in favour of things like Deen's Shooty Strat or Dok Rushing.

[Demon_Eyes]

Actually even when orks get to melee range its still a tough battle since they can be danced.

Edit: doh sterling beat me to it.

[Deen]

Yes, reapers are not for melee, I was just pointing out that 300% is way too much.

But banshees, like orks, are also all melee, and when they reach the marines 'shit hit's the fan' as well. I don't see why you say we must make it easier for banshees to get into melee combat. All melee units take fire on approach.
And nobody is taking FoF away, only delaying, so when later in the game the ranged power is greater (SM gets armory and heavy bolters) eldar can get FoF and still close into combat much easier than poor orks.


In fact, before upgrades, banshees are extremely similar to sluggas.
They have the same 29 dps per 100 req
They have the same 500 hp per 100 req
They both have poor ranged damage.
Even with Nobs/Exarches, banshee squads vs ork squads of equal cost is an even fight.

The only difference is that banshees have FoF so have a much easier time getting ranged units to melee or running away with little casualties.

[Kargard]

The difference is orc's are mostly melee, while eldar are mostly ranged.

Sorry guys but iam terribly tired, you go after small thing's that mostly pass up in game's, like slugga's vs banshee stat's comparsion (what for anyway?!) i go after bigger picture(like balancing the race). Ill post some of the no FoF game's ill play (it work's poorly so far, you can defend but can never go on offensive, have to constantly defend. Much like orc's against eldar, which is idiotic)

[Demon_Eyes]

Every other race's standard units move at 16 aside from scouts who move at 20 while all but 1 troop for Eldar can move at 24 at will. I think everyone should try using eldar without using FoF and see what happens. Banshee's will probably be relegated to ork slugga status but that in and of itself makes sense due to how melee is setup right now.

[Kargard]

Tried it, it doesnt work. You can beat early rush but you'll have to turtle badly and will be confined to your base. Offense without FoF is almost unthinkable, too much losses from all the shooty thing's.

I can post replay but iam sure there would be ton of whine's that i dont play good enough - it's 11 pm here. Ill post when i got some decent one..

[Deen]

I'm not convinced. I'll have to try it myself.
I do know that in the few games when I did play Eldar (about 10-20, none automatch), I never used FoF (I'm not really used to eldar, forgot about FoF most of the time), and my win% with eldar is at least as high as with orks/sm.

This is not evidence, like I said I'd have to try to automatch without FoF myself.

I think you're right not to post a replay since it will be extremely difficult to judge whether eldar do or do not need FoF. A lot depends on the Eldar player and his opponet.
It is best all who want to find the answer try it themselves.

[Kargard]

I think i could pull it off against newbie without FoF. Against good people, iam experiencing especially unit's coming late into fight at beginning (maybe eldar aspect's have longer build time to prevent them from overruning peep's too early with faster speed's)

[hiteche5]

Tried it, it doesnt work. You can beat early rush but you'll have to turtle badly and will be confined to your base. Offense without FoF is almost unthinkable, too much losses from all the shooty thing's.

So yoiu don't get crushed by an early rush without FoF? That is the only thing we were discussing. We didn't alk about offense. We said Fof a little later will not kill you. Sounds like it might be true.

[Kargard]

hitachi, iam gonna start cursing about now, so i think last post.

Soul shrine is usually built later then armory, the benefit's arent as big as for marine's and it's usually better to different aspect squad to round out your force's, unless you go pure guardian/DR.

And didnt you read what i said? You'll have to confide yourself around your base. That mean's you are dead. The winner is the guy who manage's to take most map while winning battle's, not the guy who manage's to survive holed up.

I got a feeling you'll do anything to prove that you are right. So, how about this. If it get's moved to soul shrine, you'll be right :)

[Demon_Eyes]

Or how about trying to find a happy medium, try aspect portal prequisite and timed ability instead of toggle, next mod release I make will have it but that is about a week away, I am sure someone could make a mini-mod for it if you don't know how to mod or I could try to release it as a small mini-mod if I can find the time.

[Kargard]

All respect to mod community, but i play mostly official automatch.. too bad it doesnt work for automatch too.. could be unofficial automatch :)

But it might be good test..let's see..

[Demon_Eyes]

Yea, can always start your own league, though that is a pain in the ass to organize. I played 1v1 automatch a few times but as SM which is not my primary race just to see what it was like, kinda bored the whole time. But I can understand the competetive ladder appeal, I am more in to that type of scenario in shooters. Mainly I like gettting together with friends on RTS games with maybe 1-2 randoms in the game (6-8 player games), so I am comming from that background where I already have access to people willing and able to play modded.

[.42.]

Tried it, it doesnt work. You can beat early rush but you'll have to turtle badly and will be confined to your base. Offense without FoF is almost unthinkable, too much losses from all the shooty thing's.

I can post replay but iam sure there would be ton of whine's that i dont play good enough - it's 11 pm here. Ill post when i got some decent one..
That is the point of delaying FoF so Eldar doesn't have the uppper hand from the minute 1. OMG you took some losses in the first engagement, someone rushed you instead of the other way around.

In the words of the Immortal Lobster_


My conclusion: Cry me a river, then drown warp spiders in it.

[Kargard]

Twist it as you like, without FoF you'll lose the game.

And sometimes i got a feeling you people never stop to think about what you read. How is being confined to your base just "omg some losses"? Iam talking about "omfg iam barely surviving", get it?

[AVD]

@ Kargard

"Twist it as you like", but read again post #46 in this thread... Nothing personal, I see this all over the forum.

The other factions deal with it without FoF, Eldar troops are not weaker and Eldar Economy is better. Which part is not clear enough for you? Without FoF it will be harder and you will have to actually work for your win and lose troops along the way as all others do...

[Kargard]

Right now, without FoF, eldar's are not possible to play with, unless you run into someone really weak on the other end. And that's a fact, protest it, whine about it, deny it, raise argument's about other thing's, it will still stay as a fact.

Go ahead, prove me wrong. Get to about ladder 1300+ and post me about 5 replay's of you winning nicely without FoF. Go for it.

[Dae]

I agree with Inst's changes to eldar. And may be Dark reaper stone must require one stone research too. Because they appear too fast.

[Alamar]

If it was easy to run down WS and DR and force them in CC no one would be complaining. But they have teleport and fof. Teleport is probably easier to deal with since it has a recharge Fof is impossible to counter.

DR's will always beat HB marines in a shoot out because they have 100 more hp than marines, so much for the "hard hitting but fragile" crap. I remember Sleign did the math for WS vs DR and in a equal res shoot out the DR's win.

Thank you. Me and my clanmates have also tested this one a lot. With dancing and without. Sure the WS can teleport twice but the DR can FoF. No dancing than it itsn't even a contest. Once you get exarchs on both DR pwn even harder..especially when you give them that ability.

Karagard its M4573r_P41n btw ;) Me and Karagard played a couple of games eldar vs. chaos the other day. Map:Fallen city BO:s Karagard went double banshee plus 2 guardian squads I think maybe 3. Was so happy to see an eldar player useing banshees. I went standared csm rush with my CL attached to cultist. He waxed one cultist squad before I got there but was smart enough to not to waste psychic storm on them. I pulled it off but here's a few things that could have changed that. FoF back to upgraded LP. You were trying to tie up your shees with my csm squads but I was useing my CL to counter them. When you tried to get your FS to hit my troops I just ran after him with CL for a lil while and no more probs from the FS. However all things considered micro was good on both sides. So rushing edlar isn't impossible.

I think FoF should remain a pre-SS ability b/c it is the cornerstone of the eldar army. I think a nerf to it would be a better route. I think it would be great if it could only be used for like somewhere betwean 5-10 seconds at a time and about a 10-20 second timer on recharge. Something like this would have to make sure of even better micro on the eldars part.

[Sterling]

Twist it as you like, without FoF you'll lose the game.

And sometimes i got a feeling you people never stop to think about what you read. How is being confined to your base just "omg some losses"? Iam talking about "omfg iam barely surviving", get it?
Wait, without FoF? Who's saying that it should be removed entirely? How does pushing it back to after Soul Shrine mean that you can't use it at all?

Also, why do your troops keep losing? They're better, for cost, than any other race's, and you have a stronger economy, even without FoF...

[Kargard]

Hey Alamar..yeah you might be right about the LP2, i just didnt want to lose the LP you could reinforce, on fallen city it usually mean's death. Also lot of people cant micro much against banshee's so mostly it works..i think i just wasnt resolute enough to tell the truth.





Also, why do your troops keep losing? They're better, for cost, than any other race's, and you have a stronger economy, even without FoF...

Without FoF in early game = lost game. So it really doesnt matter you'll get it when you chunk out SS.

What do you mean "better"? Without FoF they piece of crap. Banshee's wont get into contact fast enough and can be avoided too simply, dark reaper's are CC troops fodder, guardian's will whimper and die, ranger's again CC fodder, and farseer will have to die to enemy hero fast, unless you keep 240/80 unit out of fight. The economy isnt nearly as hot in start as you seem to think.

If you dont belive me, go try it yourself.

[Sterling]

Oh boo frigging hoo. Your troops have weaknesses. But they still do more damage/cost and have more HPs/cost than any other race's troops. You just have to use them right. Why are you letting the enemy get into CC with your Reapers? Throw guardians in the way (who, I should note, have at least as much HP as Sluggas and are more capable of dealing damage) and then mow down those Marines while they're busy fighting the footsoldiers. Banshees get into contact just as fast as Sluggas - if they need a buff, so do Sluggas.

[Kargard]

Sterling...go try it yourself. Someone told me iam theorycrafting, you are already dreaming.

[Deen]

So are you saying it is impossible, or very difficult, to have any sort of decent record (about 50%-70% win) playing eldar around 1300 level without FoF? or even if the player gets FoF after he builds soul shrine?

[Kargard]

Exactly what iam saying.

[Sterling]

I think Charlie's got a new challenge.

[Kargard]

Hmm iam saying 1300 because that's my ladder level. Charlie's ladder level is bit higher hmm? :)
So let me rephrase that, with equally skilled opponent's, which is roughly the ladder level you play at most of the time, you have no chance to get 50% win ratio. Of course i can beat some noob's at 1100 without FoF, but that's cause they hardly know what they are doing.

[.42.]

Sorry Kagard about the last post. Although I stand by the sentiment, I could have phrased it more politely. I've had a migrane for the last few days and I'm not to well disposed to th world.

At least you tried it which is really cool of you. Let me ask you did you go with your standard build? Did build a generator? I think you might not have been ready for the fact that without FoF in the early game you will lose a lot of troops, that's what happens to the other races. You have to be carefull and not over commit your self. You have to keep your army together because lone squads are likely to die, instead of being able to scape on FoF.

The game is a lot different when you can't erase mistakes with a push of a button. A month ago I was watching a replay in 1.2 of Insane vs Korbah and Insane's army came upon a csm sqad capping. Korbah had the csm attack the obiously superior force. Ofcourse the csm squad died then Insane asks "Why didn't you run?" to which Korbah replies "They were dead anyways." I don't think Eldar realize that is the reality for the rest of the races.

I just don't think FoF makes sence with the current Eldar set up. Most of their troops are not fragile enough that they need to run from an equal force and their econ is such that the can easily replace the minimal losses they receive and so end up teching and having a sizeable standing army.

So if they are going to have FoF they either need really fragile troops or crap econ.

Then the defence of FoF are either:
1) We need FoF because look how fast my troops die
or
2) Without FoF if I lose my army I can't replace it fast enough.

NOT the current situation of:

With FoF I can save my army and attack you where your army is not and when your army shows up I just FoF away. While I'm doing that I can get the req upgrades that I get so quickly and tech faster than you.

[Kargard]

Certainly i could grow more used to it, but it's not very fun to lose to rush all the time, so i think few game's were enough as a test. There still are some problem's that just wont go away with the practice - like lack of both FoF and charge on banshee's (and people already complain they arent much of use), guardian's which are both main caper's and shooty squad's necessary to keep reinforced and tight together in case rush comes (which on map like outer reaches isnt very much possible) and more i probably missed.

Well i think i already posted my suggestion, more fragile troop's arent imo good idea - only unit that can take dmg and dish it out back at good rate right now is dark reaper, banshee's could actually use hp boost after charge nerf and WS are about ok i think. Guardian's really are fragile, poor sod's often lose 3-4 member's when they get suprised even when legging it with FoF.

Better idea seem's econ nerf - it's just question what and how much. Id take away their ability to upgrade econ all the time like crazy, so they arent flying at +126 +40 all the time.

Ill also probably change to SM if it come's down to running all the time with eldar, because i like stand up fight's. Id probably have much higher win ratio if i ran more often instead of fighting to last man :)

[hiteche5]

Certainly i could grow more used to it, but it's not very fun to lose to rush all the time

Welcome to everybody else who plays against Eldar world! Play against an Eldar and you are going to see 3 accurate, fast, alright damage dealing squads and a AoE damage dealing hero in your base. Then when you start gaining the upper hand....poof! They are gone.

As an Ork player, whenever I see a bonesinger jump in I know I will get that WS squad in a couple of seconds. You will NEVER go on the offensive first, you can never rush him first...the most you can hope for is a BM harass to hopefully delay him enough to get your nobs and hold the middle ground. Every battle for us is uphill.

As Chaos in 1.2 it was the same thing. And one of Chaos' advantage is being able to force labor our buildings! You still many times saw the FS and guardians in your base first.

But I'll concede and say you need FoF available from the HQ....

Can I have my Warboss at 4 banners?

[Sterling]

only unit that can take dmg and dish it out back at good rate right now is dark reaper

By Eldar standards. By any other race's standards, the amount of HP and DPS you get for your money is absurd.

[Kargard]

I think i got what you about Sterling and Hitechi. When you done crying maybe you can throw up some idea too.

[hiteche5]

I think i got what you about Sterling and Hitechi. When you done crying maybe you can throw up some idea too.

We did throw out an idea...and you were the one who threw a hissy fit...

"I can't win without FoF...I have to defend and that just sucks...I'm supposed to get map control and go on the offensive because my troops suck!"

You tell me what they need.

[Sterling]

I'm betting we'll see the following suggestions for fixing Eldar IMBA:

- Warp Spider buff.
- Dark Reaper buff.
- Guardian buff.

[Kargard]

I did hitechi. You can check out first post in this thread.




We did throw out an idea...and you were the one who threw a hissy fit...

"I can't win without FoF...I have to defend and that just sucks...I'm supposed to get map control and go on the offensive because my troops suck!"

Sigh, trolling idiot's.

[OjKa]

I only read the last 2-3 pages of this thread because i did not want to read a whole 13 pages of utter crap.

Someone posted that if FoF was removed then their units won't be able to run away from battle with ease. Hello? Have you not played Space Marines, Chaos or Orkz? Do you not realise that they face that in every game they play?
Any race vs Eldar = this:
Eldar attacks, after some serious micro on the defender's behalf and having to stretch out the req to finally beat that army in your base, Eldar FoF and run away. Because of their cheap ass economy and ability to pull out a generator at no risk, they can upgrade the LPs or tech or do whatever, while the power for the other race is spent in weapons trying to kill the Eldar army. This again improves Eldar economy and you might as well leave.
If the non eldar race attack eldar and make a mistake and try to retreat, well they don't have FoF do they? They plod along while getting murdered by the Eldar and hell if it is a Marine race, dark reapers take over your marines, set up and kill a good few more.

Blah blah i'll skip a lot of crap cos there is much to be said about eldar and you people that defend eldar are in my opinion just fucking stupid. How about you play a race vs an Eldar of the same skill (even lower if you please) and get raped by them thanks.

Prior to a lot of beliefs, eldar units aren't weak. Reaper completely murders a Marine for less cost, less effort, better range and they have MORE HP than a fucking Marine. Yeah they are such a fragile race aren't they?
Gogo make up some more bullshit excuse cos i and many other people just *love* wasting our time proving you wrong.

I run you all over
:drive:

[Kargard]

Agree, lets lock this. Few more post's like Ojka's and iam throwing up.

[OjKa]

Wow, i don't know what to say so i'll just ignore it !!!!!!
i R teh cool!
If you want to talk about an issue, let everyone talk (like me) instead of hiding away when sense (well a lot of sense had come before my post from other people but you sitll ignore it) hits you in the face.

[Kargard]

Yep, i ignore everyone who act's like he can piss on people's head. Like writing blah blah all you wrote is shit and then showing everyone why you know it all better all along :)

[OjKa]

To be honest i don't think i can piss on your head through my monitor.
What do you think you write is? Complete truth about how eldar aren't that bad? No it is shit. You can take it as we both wrote that, but hell at least i have the balls to reply to it instead of completely running away from the subject.
Wow nice job!

Edit: About the me "knowing it more" or whatever. I don't understand this much but i shall guess that you are saying that i think i know more about the game and the races than you. Quite frankly i do :dmille:

[Deen]

I tried 1 game of eldar without FoF completely, and without aspects, here is the replay:
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=65385

[Chris]

To be fair kargard, if I had to chose who would have the final word on eldar balance between you and Ojka, I'd pick Ojka in a heartbeat. He's had tons more experience with the races than you have and he's taken most of the races to levels on the ladder that most people on this forum will never see no matter how hard they try.

[OjKa]

Thanks Chris, i am glad there are people like you on this forum.
I guess now i can calm down a bit but i don't know how you put up with it :bored: :grumble:

[Kargard]

I never doubted your ability. You could get some standard human modesty though - like


Blah blah i'll skip a lot of crap cos there is much to be said about eldar and you people that defend eldar are in my opinion just fucking stupid.

So to be fair, when i read that, i skip the post and write something along the line of you being an idiot. Maybe because you called anyone who is eldar and care's about the race fucking stupid. And that has nothing to do with your gaming skill.

[OjKa]

? Every player that has a good ability in Eldar and are top of the ladder admit that Eldar is broken. AriXar who came back to try out 1.3 got eldar to the top and then tried to play SM agaisnt the same players that he played and got beaten so much that he quit again. I'm pretty sure Insane feels that Eldar are somewhat wrong and even SeleCT who tried playing Orkz let his hate for playing agaisnt eldar be known. Hell a lot of the people up there only play Eldar now because they have an easy chance to beat every other race, even poorly skilled eldar players have jumped their way to the top despite their lack of skill.

The "Blah blah" sentance was referring to the amount of crappy posts that occured eariler in the thread that i won't bother talk about because it is just plain stupid. I play eldar now (although not in fun games) because i know that WCG is basically going to be eldar mirrors. I am eldar player yes, but i'm not stupid because i admit their faults. I care about eldar because its them that are ruining the game in a way. I have seen many players leave the game because of eldar domination. Unlike them, i gave up and joined them.

I would appreciate a reply to this instead of either ignoring this or going completely off topic. But well from what i have seen....

[Kargard]

Sorry, i've had two ppl at my neck that kept just talking trash. It's true partially i defend eldar, but i also agree that they are overpowered right now. So perhaps i took the fucking stupid part personally.

Anyway, yep about DR's, they kill marine's nicely. But i also notice people absolutely keep shut when you mention other stuff that happen's to be fragile - guardian's, banshee's, ranger's.. so i guess i love proving ppl wrong, too :)

Anyway, there's not much to talk about. I tried to talk about how eldar economy could be nerfed and tried to get over a point that without FoF, this race will lose all character. Some good idea's were made for FoF, some whiner's were around, etc, but there's not much to add now :)

[Sterling]

Guardians and Banshees still have better HP/req than anyone else's units. If Banshees have a problem getting into CC without FoF, then all I have to say is "welcome to Orkville", as Sluggas can't get into CC at all.

You're looking at absolute HP and saying "these things have less than DR, so they must be fragile". But any other race would love to have units that are that cheap and have that much HP!

[OjKa]

I guess the fragility of those units have been brushed away because of their easy escape methods.
Ah well i am glad with have resolved this. :claw:

[Sps]

you can certainly win without FoF just like ork can certainly win in 1.3

as for dr, sure they are 400hp .....of light infantry

[Deen]

Tankbustas have 320 hp, and they're designed to melee walkers, not sit back at 35 range and fire.

You cant assume light armor is always worse than heavy. Many things do more damage to heavy than light, as many as do more to light than to heavy.

[OjKa]

You are saying that a squad of Stormboys (light) should be pwned by space marines (heavy)? A lot of light armour troops can kill heavy units, vice versa

[Kargard]

Banshee banshee let's see..i just love number digging..

Slugga's got a charge modifier that make's them faster then banshee's without FoF. Banshee's got a 50 req cost to slugga's 35, which is roughly 40% higher cost, while the HP is 170 to 260, which is roughly 53% higher HP.

Dmg against infantry_heavy_med comparsion(as i wouldnt build banshee's against orc's if i were you. For the record, slugga's are better against standard infantry then banshee's. http://anytown.orionnet.com/nembus/DoW.html)

roughly:
22-27 dmg/sec on 40% accuracy for orc
banshee's 17-22 dmg/sec 65% accuracy for eldar

All number's, and pretty boring. But only thing i make out of this is that banshee is very closely matched with slugga, but without FoF it lack's the charge modifier all orc's got (they speed up when they close on enemy).

So what were you saying about cheap unit's with so high health Sterling? Just the cost difference practically pay's for the difference you know? The banshee is aspect unit that come's out slower, reinforce's slower, and doesnt have melee upgrade's orc get. Always fit it in bigger picture, or you end up with wrong idea.

Btw what's orc charge speed, anyone?

[Sps]

You are saying that a squad of Stormboys (light) should be pwned by space marines (heavy)? A lot of light armour troops can kill heavy units, vice versa

thats what was implied in dr comparison. In essence it was implied marines should own dr.

And they do, dr vs Hb whoever attacks a setup unit, or rather whoever sets up first wins. This does not factor in losing HB first but neither does it factor in losing exarch first, eldar inferior morale to instant sarge recovery etc etc etc.

[Sterling]

Charge doesn't help you get in CC, and is irrelevant anyway, as Banshees should get a charge bonus as long as they're not using FoF. And your own numbers show it - Banshees get more HP/req than Sluggas. Sluggas get 4.86 HP/req, Banshees get 5.2. Hardly "fragile" - even Tac Marines barely get 6 HP/req, if my numbers are right, and they're supposed to be tough. And Guardians are considerably better than Scouts, Cultists, or Sluggas for HP/req and damage/req.

I other words, Eldar units aren't exactly fragile. In fact, they're really tough! Especially when you consider that Eldar will have far more troops due to superior economy, even if they do actually take casualties with FoF "removed".

[Deen]

Sluggas get 175/35 = 5 HP/req
Banshees get 260/50 = 5.2 Hp/req

damage vs marines:
Slugga 10.5/35 = 0.291 dps/req
Banshee 14.6/50 = .292 dps/req

damage vs sluggas/banshees
Slugga 8.75/35 = .250 dps/req
Banshee 12.5/50 = .244 dps/req

from http://cguerin77.free.fr/stat/

[OjKa]

I did not imply that Marines should kill DR, we have had a similiar thread to this on DoWS. I am saying that for cost, DR can absolutely murder normal marines. With HB's, marines still lose even though the cost more in both req (i think) and of course power.
"But DR's are a hard counter to Heavy"
"Yes but HB's are a hard counter to Infantry"
"Yes so it should be close fight"
"Not really, a squad of reapers still own a HB squad despite who sets up first"
"Yeah cos DR counter Marines"
"Yes but the Marines counter infantry so it should be a lot closer instead of 4 Marines dieing and only killing 2 Reapers"
"Yes that is close enough, DR's are meant to kill Marines"
Sleign put it a lot better like that and summed up the whole thread nicely. Infact if you want i'll dig it up and post it here.

Edit: Couldn't find Sleign's one, i would carry on DR v Marine discussion but that is for a different 13 page thread :)

[Kargard]

I dont think id say they are fragile, myself. But they are not really tough. You just said it yourself, normal SM marine got better ratio then banshee's, and banshee's are infantry_high, so standard SM is about what, 50% tougher when it come's to standard bolter-to-shuriken catapult? As i understand it orc's are supposed to form "human wave" so that's probably why low HP's - so they can be cut down en mass with HB's/WS before they reach the target. Although 4.8 and 5.2 is really, um, "shocking" advantage :D

And the superior economy you keep going about usually kick's in in mid game, when eldar's make good their early generator's and upgrade economy. In early game the difference is usually about +6 income at best. I get regulary outresourced myself against SM, but that's me.

[hiteche5]

Slugga's got a charge modifier that make's them faster then banshee's without FoF. Banshee's got a 50 req cost to slugga's 35, which is roughly 40% higher cost, while the HP is 170 to 260, which is roughly 53% higher HP.

Charge modifier got knocked down to 8. The charge speed is the speed of the unit it is facing. So an Orc can never outrun a banshee. It can go the same speed. You are also comparing things in a vaccuum. Yes a slugga may cost 35 but I have to buy a 150 req banner every time I get 2 squads of them. A slugga also has no special abilities and is my main infantry. Your banshee squad is a disruption unit. You cannot compare the 2 in the same role.

As to my "trolling idiot post" I have already told you a suggestion. You did not like it. I tried to discuss it and you totally refuted the idea. You had a suggestion about slightly nerfing the Eldar economy and I agreed with you. We got off on a tangent because many people suggested nerfing one ability a little so the only thing affected is the Eldar early game. You are the one who is getting vehement. In fact, you said that you could fight off a rush but you did not feel like beating back rushes all the time to which I replied, "Ork gets rushed by Eldar all the time". I am only repsonding to your posts. You are the one getting mad. The only thing close to being slight inflammatory is I said you were throwing a "hissy fit". Read your post again, you were! I never once called you an idiot. I just said you were writing off one simple adjustment without trying.

[Sps]

Charge doesn't help you get in CC, and is irrelevant anyway

that statement is a plain (uninformed?) lie, sorry to say it so bluntly....

[Deen]

Kargard, actually marine bolters do a little less ( 3% less) damage to banshees than to other marines.
Guardian guns do 4% more to sluggas/banshees than to marines.

So armor type is not that different untill HBs/plasma and spiders/reapers come out. Certainly not 50% more durability for marines over banshees.

[Kargard]

Hitech i dont refund the idea because it isnt true. Yes orc's do get rushed by eldar for example. But i think you aren't being fair, that's all. Yes it's a big disbalance. And it feel's like you'd like the eldar's to experience the same disbalance - or how should i interpret "oh you think it's disbalance, well look at ork's". And that's pretty crazy, i mean just because relic screwed orc's you want them to screw eldar too? Let's fix this game, not swing it here and there like pendulum..

And i think i got angry because you said i wrote it off. I didnt. Yesterday i spent over an hour doing game after game without FoF because of discussion here. What i said i said based on experience. And you tell me iam having "hissy fit". Well sorry for even trying.

(btw about the slugga's, well hehe each 2 banshee's squad's i have to build webway gate for 100 req.. not to mention orc nobz leader's are superior to banshee exarch's in every way. I think the banshee vs slugga debate is bit waste of time to tell the truth..)

[Tenak]

Despite absolutely loathing eldar (being and ork player lol) I would argue that FoF being part of their racial identity would justify them getting it very early. Running around alot is how the eldar are meant (and designed) to be played like. It's not an unbeatable tactic either IMO.
I think that their ridiculous economy is the main problem. With eldar troops being shown time and time again to able to compete with SM/CSM troops for cost easily, it just seems stupid that they should have such a great eco advantage. The problem for me is when the eldar do mess up and make a mistake, their economy means that they are simply not punished for it...

Well, thats my attempt to steer this thread back on track anyway.

[hiteche5]

Kargard. I'm not saying to nerf Eldar into oblivion. In fact, most people are trying to do one adjustment to the early game not nerf you completely. In fact, look at your first post...


Alright after some comparing i do agree that eldar's have an advantage, in my opinion mostly because of economy to tell the truth - the unit's themselves are mostly counterable alright and i dont think we need to go into them here.

Big step? Iam not that sure myself. Generally with eldar, i got a feeling i can throw away lot of unit's - much more then the marines. I often sit on alot of power i just can throw away, too. Generally in late game the cost differences would be minimal, but it would slow the eldar "economy boom" that often allow's you to just toy with the marines if you keep the pressure on them.

Others suggested that they did not have to go that far...just nerf FoF. What's weird is then you say....


And the superior economy you keep going about usually kick's in in mid game, when eldar's make good their early generator's and upgrade economy. In early game the difference is usually about +6 income at best. I get regulary outresourced myself against SM, but that's me.

So what is it? Now it's sounds like you think the economy is fine too?

As for the slugga banshee debate you initially get 10 pop, it's after you fill that that you have to get your webway for 2 more squads...which reinforce to higher numbers...please...Orcs pay a lot for cap, don't try to argue than one. To reiterate, your banshee squad is a support unit, for disruption, not your main infantry and even that is almost as good. Think about it, your support unit is almost as good as my main infantry unit. But you are right talking about these things is a waste of time.


And i think i got angry because you said i wrote it off. I didnt. Yesterday i spent over an hour doing game after game without FoF because of discussion here. What i said i said based on experience. And you tell me iam having "hissy fit". Well sorry for even trying.

I was not angry. I just think an hour is not enough time to completely write off the suggestion.

So what is your proposal for balance..since the economy is not much better and FoF is necessary?

[Kargard]

Aha now we getting somewhere.

Well - economy isnt that different in beginning. But id put higher cost's i suggested to balance the effect of FoF in. You know, i think FoF shouldnt be touched much. Unless you think some system up for it which would allow even less experienced player's to still play eldar fine, which might not be few second's usage - that's not exactly noob friendly.

Also i'd do something about mid-game eldar economy which boost's too fast. More expensive generator's id say.

Anyway so that's my idea

FoF = smaller tweak (there were some good idea's, like the inaccuracy lasting few second's when you turn it off)
Economy = down to make up for FoF(up to test's how much though, we'd only guess)

What iam totally against - moving FoF to SS. Would make much more disbalance then it'd fix, from what i've seen.


Er btw why is banshee support unit? Id call ranger's support unit, banshee's are fast killing unit (with guide they'll kill SM squad in about 10 second's, incredible fast). Maybe you mean Seer Council, that's disturption unit (throwbacks).

Out of curiosity, how many game's did you play without FoF?

[.42.]

you can certainly win without FoF just like ork can certainly win in 1.3

as for dr, sure they are 400hp .....of light infantry
Your assumption is that the average weapon does more damage to light infantry than it does to heavy.

I took the dps from http://lerp.com/~sic/dow/dps.html and averaged the damage of all weapons vs heavy_med(marines) and infantry_high(dark reapers) guess what I found?

The average weapon does 30.83856522 dps to heavy_med and does 28.34018577 to inf_high. I think the damage to inf_high should be a little higher because of the changes in 1.3 but the result would still be about the same.

Armour type really doesn't matter until heavy counters hit the table. And having light inf armour doesn't mean any real extra risk.

In the case of DR vs HB we have counter vs counter so one of the major deciding factors is the DR's superrior HP.

[Sps]

You may also chose to ignore the additional bolter some of which will be firing, as well as the fact melee completely negate reapers. Numbers as usual can be thrown around all day.

And what exactly is the point in averaging all weapons?

but I will indulge you and go check typing in findings as I read them:

According to that site:

heavy Bolter does 32 dps to reaper
reaper does 20.5 dps to marines

assuming the numbers on site are per weapon:

5 man reaper no exarch 2000HP 82dps against marines
8 man tac no sarge 2400Hp 128dps

reaper squad dead in 15.6 seconds
tac dead in 29.2 seconds

Seems pretty close eh? even tho marines have the upper hand, but let us factor in the fact tacs have additional 4 weapons one of which can be upgraded on the fly to replace a loss while moving and not taking fire, while regular bolter is adding to the dps against reapers if they try to overtake. Yes not all of them will fire or if on move they will fire with reduced accuracy, but they will fire nonetheless and the numbers are quite clear.

The reason why a marine may lose is if if they charge reapers losing time during setup and thus bringing us to point two - which is losing the heavy weapon. And point 3 is - having only 2 HB's. But on equal numbers if both focus fire and shoot at same time - no way reapers "pwn".

And the exarch aura and added dps/hp is a MUST to equalize the dps, a reaper squad with no exarch is a dead reaper for sure. Funny thing both exarch and HB require armory.

in addition and i tested this - 10man vanilla csm unupgraded wins a shootout vs 5man reaper with accuracy and health.

So whats so superior about that? Furthermore whats so imbalanced there? considering the INSTA tie up reapers can not prevent (jump troups), whereas HB can easily cut down shees, farseer and only has real trouble vs council.

reapers are balanced - give it up.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

So whats so superior about that? Furthermore whats so imbalanced there? considering the INSTA tie up reapers can not prevent (jump troups), whereas HB can easily cut down shees, farseer and only has real trouble vs council.WS tie up.

[Sps]

ws tie up vs asm tie up - tit for tat can go both ways trouble is - asm tie up will kill, ws tieup will not.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

You were implying that SM had an insta tie up and Eldar don't. Was just correcting you.

[AVD]

@ Sps

Please calculate in how fast DRs reinforce and how fast marines reinforce a dead HB marine (marine + HB -> total time). Fit in the price to do so as well. Every vanilla marine at DR range is doing nothing but reducing the probability of a HB marine getting killed - their HP could help, or could not - pure chance - the first 4 marines to die in a squad could be the HB ones - counting all the HP in this way is gambling.

Additionally if you want to get the whole squad into range as to use all bolters you have to take into account that those HBs won't be firing at all and then they will need to setup to start firing. Count in that the squad will be on the verge of breaking as well at this point.

I have never managed to beat DRs with HBs - never seen anybody else do that as well. With mass DRs (5 squads) ASM don't work at all as well, neither do scouts (fit in FS here, storms as well) - I know the numbers - it simply doesn't work ingame.

In reality even if you manage to kill some DRs in the end you end up dying faster than the DRs and you lose - despite the numbers you've shown, and these are not all the number that have to be taken into account to be honest. Recalculate and post the results.

I would be grateful if you could redirect me to a replay to see it done though.

[.42.]

as for dr, sure they are 400hp .....of light infantry
Then what was the point of saying that? You are obiously implying that light armour makes them more vulnerable than heavy med. This would be true if the average weapon did more damage to light inf than heavy med. It turns out this is a misconception did you not get that?

I think there are a few things wrong with your scenario. Let's assume that both are engaging at max range and are set up.
1) 8 man tac squad with 4 HB vs 5 DR so the marine has spent the Eldar by quite a lot
2) you didn't take into account the dps reduction when a member dies. So your results are completely wrong.
3) Those extra marines are not firing so they are being used as very expensive cannon fodder


in addition and i tested this - 10man vanilla csm unupgraded wins a shootout vs 5man reaper with accuracy and health.
Wow I can beat an eldar player that doesn't know how to use FoF to take advantage of DR range.

If you are going to throw numbers around try to make sure they are correct.

edit:
@avd: Sps's numbers are wrong the numbers favour DR's that is why they always beat marines.

[Sps]

Don't want to omnislash but there are several separate points I wanted to adress.


Then what was the point of saying that? You are obiously implying that light armour makes them more vulnerable than heavy med. This would be true if the average weapon did more damage to light inf than heavy med. It turns out this is a misconception did you not get that?

i did and I answered via your link and obviously not a misconception in reaper vs tac case.


1) 8 man tac squad with 4 HB vs 5 DR so the marine has spent the Eldar by quite a lot

So has eldar vs mass:

10 csm = 750 req wins vs

1095/150(ish) which is a 5 man reaper with health and accuracy which includes shrine/ap/stone/generator necessary for shrine and reapers still lose (or rather break then lose) ...

And while reapers can be massed rather quickly so can those csm/tacs - sm has an added benefit of scouts forcing eldar to outspend sm in time and req by getting a spider or being forced into outsquaded dance hell.


2) you didn't take into account the dps reduction when a member dies. So your results are completely wrong.

Dps reduction goes both ways, and reapers die faster as shown via numbers, the advantage reapers have to counter that is their squad members come with heavy weapon.


3) Those extra marines are not firing so they are being used as very expensive cannon fodder

which can melee the darkreapers to death, shoot on the move while chasing, or be used to replace lost heavy weapon on the fly - sure moving/melee negate the HB but marines can do both, reapers can only shoot.


edit:
@avd: Sps's numbers are wrong the numbers favour DR's that is why they always beat marines.

Funny they are "wrong" as it is your own source. "My" numbers are straight off the link you so helpfully provided, I used CSM heavy bolter tactical vs infantry_high and reaper_launcher vs heavy_med.

If the site you used to refute my stance is wrong then your argument is also wrong, and you should not cite that source at all.

As for DR always beating HB, have 5 reapers charge as in assault an non lp-ed sm base but with HB set up - see what happens. Now have the marine assault 5 reapers - see what happens.

It is ironic that one of the most balanced shootouts in the game is completely taken out of its place and to the whine shop, rehauled and remarketted as cheeze.

Simply not true.

As for cost, HB counters everything eldar, yes even "heavy" infantry that are spiders drop dead to it. And i wont go into plasma and what it does to ork/eldar.

but by all means argue to a nerf and nerf away. I am tired of "i told you so's" as well as hate flood on everything eldar, atleast playing ork nobody argues anything...

[Jetmech Jr.]

.42., this was done before. HB marines and Dark Reapers fight to a draw, virtually every time.

4 HB marines have and EXACTLY equal cost to 5 Dark Reapers. The HB Marines have superior DPS against infantry, And essentially the SAME DPS vs. Heavy infantry (19.something, as opposed to 20.5). The Dark Reapers have superior health. It all comes down to who sets up first.

Throw in 4 extra marine meatshields, and it pretty much automatically goes to the Marines, though it costs more by 200 Req.

Sps is right. It's balanced.

[Alamar]

So if they are going to have FoF they either need really fragile troops or crap econ.

Then the defence of FoF are either:
1) We need FoF because look how fast my troops die
or
2) Without FoF if I lose my army I can't replace it fast enough.


Agree completely. Even let the echo stay the same if the units took nerfs to health.

[Deen]

in addition and i tested this - 10man vanilla csm unupgraded wins a shootout vs 5man reaper with accuracy and health.

Unless you had reapers run up and set up under bolter fire, I do not believe this is true.

[AVD]

If DRs vs HB marines is so perfectly balanced then I am utterly notorious at being unable to make it work for me as SM :(

I've had shootouts for several minutes reinforcing like crazy, sometimes even being in light cover, being stormed by the FS, bringing sniper scouts along, even sacrificing my FC with some ASM to buy me some time and kill more DRs meanwhile - I always lost this type of encounter - always. They simply kill more than I do.

Does anyone have a 1.3 replay where I can see how the hell HBs beat DRs?!?

[Jetmech Jr.]

Did you attack. Did they get the first shots off while your HB's set up?

If nothing else, HB's vs. DR's should, at the very least, be "By the skin of your teeth" close.

[Sterling]

Is this equal DPS including or excluding the bonus from the Exarch?

[Jetmech Jr.]

With Exarch, DR's still do far, far, far less DPS vs. Heavy infantry than HB's DPS vs. light infantry. Doesn't really affect anything, except introducing enough cost to afford another HB or 2.

[AVD]

@ Jetmech Jr.

They attacked - after a while it didn't matter really as it was a static shootout. Both of us kept bringing reinforcements and did our best to screw the other one. After a while he brought some BL, me some AC Dreads - they died, then I brought a WW, and so on. All while I kept pumping tac squads and overwatching them on HBs and scouts overwatced to snipers...

That was the closest thing I had to victory vs DRs and still lost.

I watched a replay by Chris a day ago - SM vs Eldar. Nothing in it left the impression that HBs can tackle DRs even on even ground (and these were some good players - way better than me), unless there is something wrong with my eyes.

Again - I would still be grateful if you provide me with a replay that show a good SM beat a good Eldar in a DR vs HB tac shootout + all the usual tricks like FoF, storms, scouts in CC and the FS kicking their ass, etc.

[Sterling]

Sounds like what we're seeing here is that a SM Tac Squad + HB beats a DR squad if neither reinforces. If both are reinforcing, the Eldar's absurdly good HP/req ratio swings things in their favour, as does the fact that all their troops pop out with heavy weapons, while the SM has to spend ages rebuilding a Marine + Bolter.

[Jetmech Jr.]

A single psy storm would already tip the battle in the eldar's favour. I told you, it's really freaking close. IIRC, last time I checked the end result was that one squad or another killed each other off with only seconds of spare time. Anything other than Pure HB vs. DR is besides my point, which is that 4 HB's, undisturbed, are an almost exact equal vs. 5 DRs, undisturbed.

Adding in things like Whirlwinds and hero disruption (something the eldar is better at) create way too many variables.

I have no way to get my hands on a replay of that anytime soon. Best I can advise is you find a friend and go on from there.

[AVD]

Well, sorry, but according to my modest calculations DRs in the end reinfoce faster than HB marines (a marines + HB), and cost less than a HB marine! So even if initially I kill them well, after a while they start to kill me faster. If what you say for unreinforced squads is true and they are absolutely balanced, once you take reinforcements speed and cost into account what I see consistently starts to make sense.

And the damn storm is a part of the engagement - you can't neglect it and put it out of the equation. I'm not interested in a lab test - what matters for me is a full blown game where everything goes, ok? That's where I fail - ingame, not in a lab test. And I mean 4-5 DR squads, not 2. This sort of engagement has ALWAYS gone the same way - after a while it ALWAYS goes to the Eldar.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Ok, if you only want to speak of actual ingame engagements, FINE. Nevermind it's beside the point I was trying to make. WHen do you ever see a naked Heavy Bolter squad? Not often. Hence, when an SM player loses an HB, he needs only to rebuild the HB on one of the extra Marines (granted, thats still about 1 secodn more than a DR's reinforce time). Then theres the matter of expendable scouts, which have simply WONDERFUL times tying up entire squads of 5 Reapers.

Also, the Heavy bolter enjoys Better-than-average attacks compared to reapers ACROSS THE BOARD:

DR-

tp_infantry_low 6.0375
tp_infantry_med 4.1055
tp_infantry_high 2.898
tp_infantry_heavy_med 20.5275
tp_infantry_heavy_high 19.32
tp_monster_med 19.32
tp_monster_high 19.32
tp_commander 4.83
tp_vehicle_low 1.76295
tp_vehicle_med 1.76295
tp_vehicle_high 1.76295
tp_building_low 6.8586
tp_building_med 2.72895
tp_building_high 2.72895

HB-

tp_infantry_low 33.4698
tp_infantry_med 44.2722775625
tp_infantry_high 31.876
tp_infantry_heavy_med 19.1256
tp_infantry_heavy_high 14.0627946875
tp_monster_med 18.5941673125
tp_monster_high 18.5941673125
tp_commander 9.195229875
tp_vehicle_low 5.4642436875
tp_vehicle_med 3.25
tp_vehicle_high 3.25
tp_building_low 9.96125
tp_building_med 3.25
tp_building_high 3.25

One more thing: The Heavy Bolter also does More Morale damage than Dark Reapers.

[AVD]

@ Jetmech Jr.

Initially you will have spare marines - that's a fact. Wait for a while and you will realise very quickly that you actually need a new vanilla marine to upgrade to a HB one. I'm not speaking about a 5 seconds engagement here. And the better HB damage across the board matters only as far as it helps to kill troops different than DRs. So how may different types of armor do I meet vs. Eldar playing SM?

I'd like you to crunch the following numbers and post them:

- initial cost and HP for a 4xHB squad vs full DR squad (vanilla marines do not count in the damage dealt whatsoever, they hardly can be taken into account for the total squad HP as meatshields, as you have absolutely no idea which marine will die first, the ones that do matter are the HB ones only).
- time and cost for HB upgrade ONLY vs DR reinforcement time and cost
- time for a vanilla marine reinforcement + HB upgrade vs DR reinforcement time
- cost for a vanilla marine + HB upgrade vs cost for a single DR reinforcement

[Jetmech Jr.]

Sure, I have time to spare:


- initial cost and HP for a 4xHB squad vs full DR squad (vanilla marines do not count in the damage dealt whatsoever, they hardly can be taken into account for the total squad HP as meatshields, as you have absolutely no idea which marine will die first, the ones that do matter are the HB ones only).

HB squad (4 HB):

Cost: 360/40
HP: 1200
DPS: 127.6

DR squad (5 DR):

Cost: 400/0
HP: 2000
DPS: 102.7


time and cost for HB upgrade ONLY vs DR reinforcement time and cost

HB:

Time: 12 seconds
Cost: 40/10

DR:

Time: 11 seconds
Cost: 80/0


- time for a vanilla marine reinforcement + HB upgrade vs DR reinforcement time

HB:

Time:19 seconds

DR:

Time: 11 seconds


- cost for a single DR vs cost for a vanilla marine + HB

HB:

Cost: 90/10

DR:

Cost: 80/0


As you can see, the HB's sacrifice build time and health for effectiveness vs. essentially everything that Puts even WarpSpiders to shame. As costs build up, the DR begins to outpace the HBs in terms of numbers, but remain ineffective against many targets the HB's can crush. Meat shield tac marines, however, CAN play a big role in establishing HB superiority early, assuming they are targeted first. If not, a scout squad will do the trick.

Now that I think about it though, the DR reinforce time COULD use a slight nerf.

[AVD]

@ Jetmech Jr.

Based on these numbers - wouldn't you agree that even if the initial encounter is balanced, and even if there are some spare marines in those tac squads (that do cost res nonetheless), after just a while DR will always win, simply because in the not so long run they reinforce much faster, for less? Isn't it obvious that if you factor in FS disrupting almost all scouts that tie any DR squads in CC, and that the FS can storm pretty well (and relatively often) so even sniper scouts get whacked eventually, that SM vs DR has not chance to win whatsoever if we're speaking about 4-5 DR squads (that many are more than capable to take the initial beating and survive long enough as to start inflicting more then they receive) and so many tac ones? Do you still think it is SO closely balanced?

I think that it is obvious in these numbers, just as it is obvious for me ingame.

[Jetmech Jr.]

In answer to your last question, Yes. I've never seen marine players who keep their heads have excessive difficulties with DR's. Maybe thats just me.

[Sterling]

Also remember that the Marines need an Armory + 75/75 (?) research to get 4x HB. Eldar can get 5x DR with Aspect + DR stone - about equivalent to the time and cost for the marine player to get his barracks. IOW, you'll never see 4x HB versus 5x DR. The DR should always have a comfortable numerical advantage, especially since they can run away from losing engagements at will without significant losses.

[.42.]

@Sps: Why are adding the cost of teching to the DR side and not to the SM side? Your numbers are wrong not

because your dps values but because your calculations methods are not correct and you are not making fair comparisons.

Let's do the numbers right shall we. Assuming a straight fight both sides set up. Let's not add in the effect of other troops and tactics becase those cannot be calculated.

As Jetmech said a fairer comparison in terms of is 5 DR vs 4 HB marines. They are about equal in cost although marines cost power and require more teching.

HB marines do 31.88 dps vs DR's
DR's do 20.53 dps vs marines

Marines have 300 hp
DR have 400 hp

--------------------------------------------------------
Time 0
5 x 20.53 = 102.65 dps - in 300/102.65 = 2.92 secs the first marine will die.
4 x 31.88 = 127.52 dps - in 400/127.52 = 3.14 secs a DR will die

so a SM dies first at 2.92 secs
----------------------------------------------------
Time 2.92 secs
5 DR's left at one with 400 - 127.52 * 2.92 = 27.64 hp left
3 sm left at full health

Time untill wounded dr dies:
27.64 / 3 x 31.88 = 0.29 secs

DR damage in 0.29 secs
5 DR x 20.53 dps/dr * 0.29 sec = 29.77 damage
--------------------------------------------------
Time 3.21 secs
4 DR's left at full health
3 sm left one at 300 - 29.77= 270.23 hp left

Time untill wounded sm dies:
270.23 / 4 dr * 20.53 dps/dr = 3.29 secs

sm damage in 3.29 secs
3.29 secs * 3 sm * 31.88 dps = 314.66 damage
-----------------------------------------------------
Time 6.5
4 dr's one with 400 - 314.66 = 85.34
2 sm at full health

Time untill wounded DR dies
85.34 / 2 *31.88 = 1.34 secs

Damage done by DR in 1.34 secs
1.34secs * 4 dr * 20.53 dps/dr = 110.04 damage
-----------------------------------------------------
time 7.84
3 dr left at full health
2 sm left 1 at 300 - 110.04 = 189.96

Time untill wounded sm dies
189.96/3 dr * 20.53 dps/dr= 3.08 secs

Damage done by sm in 3.08 secs
3.08 secs * 2 * 31.88 = 196.38 damage
-------------------------------------------------
time 10.15 secs
3 dr left one with 400 - 196.38 = 203.62 hp left
1 sm left at full health

Time untill last sm dies
300/3 dr * 20.53 dps/dr = 4.87 secs

Damage done by last SM in 4.87 secs
31.88 * 4.87 secs = 155.26 damage
--------------------------------------------
Time 15.02 secs
All SM are dead
3 dr's left one with 203.62 - 155.26 = 48.36

So it looks to me that the fight isn't even close 4 HB marines die and 3 DR's are left one with 48 hp left.

Why don't you guys believe that DR>HB marines? It's what you see in game and what the numbers show.

[Sps]

Unless you had reapers run up and set up under bolter fire, I do not believe this is true.

no csm ran up to setup reapers - yes we were both "wtf" confused so we retested - same result.

What did rape that csm squad were 3 shuriken plats. Situation was reverse - csm broke and plats owned.

AVD - same thing happened to me from both sides until I realised through being on the receiving end - HB is a defensive turtle weapon. You can not assault with it and you are well advised not to try to assault against it without a shield. You get to a spot and you camp it.

And with some snipers cycling targets, or if late game some ww's to wreak havoc - its pure rape. The only time you can assault reapers with hb is under wote.

.42 - reread carefully then ask - I have described two separate situations one where eldar loses when teching to vanilla mass, and one where sm outtechs eldar and pays through the nose.

Edit: retested the ten csm again - this time csm broke so I'll retract that for now.

As for what is needed vs a full setup 4hb csm in terms of pure reapers is ... 6 pop of reapers. Disruption on eldar side is a must and only hope vs HB.

i'm sure people will find something or other irelevant as they always do, but having to have 6 pop of reapers to move one HB squad speaks to all but the most thickheaded.

replay (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=994155#post994155)

things to do when time allows:

it seems eldar will need atleast 2 squads one with exarch or both to move those csm.

In either case eldar needs more pop per HB squad to beat them. Without exarchs eldar needs 6 pop to beat 4hb squad at full. Costs are relatively fair in terms of outcomes, but POP is not. Arguably the amount of disruption eldar can cause justifies the pop issue but... thats a matter of opinion.

Retest the 10 csm as this time they lost.

[AVD]

@ Sps

I would appreciate it if you could comment on the SM HB vs DR encounter with all the numbers taken into accout (namely the reinforcement costs and times). Do you still find that both are balanced?

[Edit]

The fact that the HB is a purely defensive weapon that can be so easily disrupted and made absolutely useless is the reason in the thread about plasma that I state that the thing needs to be looked at more closely - it's setup time is killing the weapon through sheer non-usability!

[Deen]

Thats really strange Sps, by how much did they win, how many maries were left?

[.42.]

Sps: and like I said you are making absurd and unfair comparisons in an attempt to make it look that DR's lose to sm.

I guess there really is no point in talking to you.

[Sps]

avd replay is up what beats 4hbs at full is 6 pop of reapers.

And yes I did a quick calc as things were happening and found reapers losing fair even when it was 4 pop vs 2 with almost equal costs (660/40 for csm 800 for eldar). The fact eldar needed 3 reapers to dent one HB squad seemed perfectly balanced precisely because of the disruption.

more disruption = less reapers (pop), as is with equal upgrades eldar already needs double the pop so: priority - kill disruption while disrupting reapers yourself. Then own reapers. Simple.

.42 I will retest that one, but if you want to acuse someone of lying then I accuse you of same with your numbers because as replay clearly shows if eldar wants to attack a set up full 4Hb squad eldar needs 3 times the pop and definitely more req.

And I guess 3 full reapers finally beating a single Hb squad is absurd... guess there really is no point now is there.

i am big enough to say: ok wtf test wasnt replicated - maybe I was wrong on that one, but you are not big enough to admit eldar needs 3x the pop vs a full Hb even in face of replay.

Now granted in a real fight eldar has disruption potential but so does the enemy. And with disruption - that disruption 1. costs and 2. costs pop making it a fair fight.

neither of us reinforced - I didnt need to even when i lost 2 HB's. 2 reinforcing reapers would probably beat the hb.

First fight should be ignored as my HB split fire and yes I dissed relic for that - improved targetting my ass.


Thats really strange Sps, by how much did they win, how many maries were left?

I was overwatching and probably lost half a squad (4 marines) - altho i wasn't able to replicate this today so scratch that - until i confirm whether I was wrong and it was a one time oddity, or i got the upgrades wrong...

the replay above is a straight fight. While not indicative of real multiple array of units situation it does provide you with a basis on which to form targetting priority decisions and what to disrupt yourself as well as what to kill first.

[Sterling]

The numbers posted above show quite clearly that 5xDR beats 4xHB easily, with almost exactly half the DR squad left. Thus, HB is not a viable DR counter, as the HB squad will always have to set up under fire against a competent Eldar player, unless the SM player is turtling. The only way this could not be right is if the numbers .42 used were completely and totally wrong.

If the Eldar wants to attack a set up squad, then we're talking a different game here, as the Reapers need to set up. But an Eldar doing that is a moron - he can disrupt the HBs any of a dozen different ways, set up his Reapers, and then turn it into the situation above.

And the Eldar doesn't need 3x anything. A 5-man Reaper squad beats a 4-man HB squad if neither has to set up. Hands down. And the HB squad is, in practice, always the one that has to set up.

IOW, Eldar = OP.

[savagedave]

Just like to address one point
WHen do you ever see a naked Heavy Bolter squad? Not often. Hence, when an SM player loses an HB, he needs only to rebuild the HB on one of the extra Marines (granted, thats still about 1 secodn more than a DR's reinforce time).

By 'naked' do you mean unreinforced? Just 4 marines with heavy bolters?
If thats the case I think you'd see it rather a lot. There's no way I'm wasting req on marines who won't be firing if there team mates are carrying missiles or HB's. Later in the game I might do it, but at tier 1, vs Eldar especially (when I'm more likely to be behind economically) I never do.

[Sps]

Sterling I charged a setup reaper with HB, 1v1, I won.

As for a naked 4 man squad all with heavy weapons that only happens on missile squads, and if thats how you play frankly, I am not suprised you lose.

[savagedave]

As for a naked 4 man squad all with heavy weapons that only happens on missile squads, and if thats how you play frankly, I am not suprised you lose.

No i lost when I did reinforce, now I've stopped things are much better. :square:

[AVD]

@ Sps

First - didn't I stress enough that I'm speaking about 4-5 DR SQUADS? Didn't I make the whole point about REINFORCING times and cost? Am I really expressing myself that bad in English?

Sorry, but your replay proves nothing to me. Walking the DRs into normal bolter range is suicide. A full CSM squad costs quite a bit more than a DR squad, but that's not the point.

Let you know what - make the same test - 5 DR squads this time vs 5 CSM squads with 4xHB upgrades (equal them as a cost to make it a bit more interesting if you want). First - DRs setup - CSM attack. Second CSM setup - DRs attack. Attack-move, ok? And please do NOT walk your DRs into normal bolter range - that is idiotic for our purposes - no Eldar is going to do that! Both of you reinforce as soon as a member of a squad dies - just switch on overwatch. Post the replay.

Both of you research everything that is to be researched regarding the troops - accuracy, HP, etc. If you have the time test before and after the upgrades. Do that properly and you'll have me convinced.

[BlueJackal]

Actually I've come to thinking that 4 man HB squads might be the way to go. Haven't played to test it out, but often one non HB is on the outskirts and gets gunned down without reprisal fire, costing you unnecessary req.

Secondly, charging into Dark Reaper fire is a bad way to do things. If your HBs have to set up, you've already lost... at least more Req than they have, god forbid if this is a multiple squad exercise.

Better to have more guys that can fire at range, IMO.

[Sterling]

The only reason to have extras is to rebuild faster. Which means you should probably be pre-emptively reinforcing your HB squads in combat against DRs.

[savagedave]

Thing is, for say, two extra meat shield marines, who are gonna achieve nothing other than dying, you could get an extra scout squad. This I find makes a much better meatshield because it can charge the reapers (or infiltrate in close) independently of the marines, and tie up the reapers in CC.

[Sterling]

I mean pre-emptively reinforce as in always have the squad reinforcing or building a bolter. Given the rate at which marines die off, the math looks good. It's expensive, but fighting DRs as SM is always hideously expensive.

[AVD]

@ Sterling

The point is not only that it's more expensive - the point is that as SM you will be reinforcing a HB marine for 172% the time an Eldar needs to reinforce a DR. In a shootout this means that you will lose no matter what if the initial engagement involves equal number of squads. That is even without the FS screwing you additionally - and the FS will do that - bet your life on it.

Please bear in mind that even if you have spare marines it will STILL take you more time to upgrade a SPARE marine to HB than it will take an Eldar to get a new DR (1 second, but still)...

[aqwerty]

if u nerf eldar tier 1 nerf sm tier 2...

[Sterling]

Please bear in mind that even if you have spare marines it will STILL take you more time to upgrade a SPARE marine to HB than it will take an Eldar to get a new DR (1 second, but still)...

Point.

[.42.]

I watched the replay it was interesting.

The first test was funny because it basicly proved my numbers 5 dr vs 4hb result 2 dr left standing. Even though the numbers predict that 1 more dr should be left in the red it must be taken into account that you ran the DR into the set up HB's and still won. This is the only test that showed roughly equal cost on both sides.

The 5 DR vs 10 vanilla csm is sort of a what if test that doesn't really happen in a real game. The DR sat there not using their range advantage and the csm were reenforcing while the DR's were not. We all know that the eldar player would have ran the DR's on FoF once they got in range of bolter fire.

The DR's 1, 2 vs full squad with 4 HB this is again a weird test since the eldar runs his DR's right in to the faces of the csm so that they are in range on the standard bolter fire. So the DR's make no attempt to use their range advantage. In the first of these test you say something like the csm should win since you have out spent him by a lot and this is true csm win.

I liked the tests in a way. The first showed I didn't screw up my calculations. You said something about "split targeting" feel free to retest but I think you will come out to roughly the same result. The other tests were some what suspect since 1 side or the other always out spent the other by a large margin, the dr's were almost always the ones charging and the DR's never made use of their range. And I ignored the tests where eldar moved too much or had FoF on since you seemed to have a problem with that too in ingame chat.

With these tests I still say DR > HB.

[Sps]

No it wasn't - as the hbs split fore - 2 reapers shot one reaper 2 Hb's shot the other..

the 10 csm were there to shut the whines of csm who claim their mas is easily defeated at t1 so they leat me tech ...

At 15:15 HB squad charges a set up reaper 1v1 and wins. And yes I remarked that the outcome is as it should be as CSM had outspent the reapers.

But if you note this entire whine has been omg no those HBs dont make any diff.

i had a problem with fof on because outcome would have been the same, and the reason I said turn it off is because I knew someone would whine about it as somehow invalidating the test. Fof made 0 diff.

And yess DR> HALF an HB because while eldar has heavy weapons on all members you have redundancy built in, but 1v1 you insist on using only half a squad and demanding it wins - what happens in reaper vs a full csm then? which btw rapes reapers as is?

Which is better (all heavy weapons or half heavy half redundancy) is irelevant but saying that full HB will lose to a full reaper is dumb and I have proven that.

Conveniently ignoring 8 csm overwatching and charging a setup raper while not carying any heavy weapos (15:15) certainly shows that vanilla csm > reaper and cost wise if was 2 pop eldar @ 400 vs 2 pop csm @400 to 500 and of course some lossess. So what if Hb loses you are using half a potential with 4 man 4xHb squad.

HB was not designed to be carried on half a squad. You may not like it but every weapon csm/sm/ork carry has been balanced to acount for half a squad shielding it.

[Sterling]

But that just makes it even worse, as it increases the effective cost of every weapon by 50 req. So really, if your assumption holds, a full HB squad costs far more than the Reaper squad that annihilates it totally. (Well, unless the Eldar player runs the Reaper squad right up and into regular bolter range...)

[Sps]

Sterling one test was a (full) Hb squad charing reapers and anihilating them 1v1.

how is that worse?

8 csm charging a set up reaper 400 vs 400 csm win a shootout let alone melee - yes they were on overwatch going in but the outcome is pretty much the same.

5 reapers vs half a csm squad with heavy weapons reapers win
10 reapers charging a full csm squad with 4 HB's - reapers raped.

You guys having a problem with 4 man 4 hb squad losing to 5 reapers is completely ignorant of the fact that a full csm with no heavy weapons can take on a reaper with minimal losess, and withstand a 2v1 situation as well even losing 2 of those heavy weapons.

And if thats how you want to view it then 10 reapers (800) req should not only have a chance vs 10 csm with 4 hb (660/40 or 820/40 if you insist on generator in cost) but completely annihilate them simply because its 4 pop vs 2 pop. As its shown tho reapers are not even close, eldar needs 6 pop and 15 reapers to dent that 820/40, which is a total cost on eldar side of 1200. kinda similar to you wanting to use same cost but half the pop really and then complaining about it.

As is always the case - I have shown you what happens when, just like eldar would be stupid to assault a marine with reapers, a marine is stupid to use only half the potential and complain about it. Cost disadvantages are there for both sides and shift from one to the other.

Knowing when you have the advantage is part of the strategy. Demanding that you have an advantage at 4 man 4 hb stage is equivalent to me demanding you do not reinforce those squads then, because if you balance it around half a squad ignoring the other half, you are really only seeking to buff your race in a ridiculous way.

[savagedave]

You guys having a problem with 4 man 4 hb squad losing to 5 reapers

I get the feeling I may be responsible for this discussion veering off onto a debate about half squads vs full squads, thus derailing the thread further. I don't have a problem with this, reapers are fine IMO, its the army dynamic they presently are bolted onto that I think needs looking at.

[Sps]

I agree reapers are fine, i found no fault with reapers winning vs half a squad, lossing a 1v1 and 2v1 fight vs a full squad as well as a full unupgraded squad.

i just have a problem with people complaining in this shootout where 2 out of 3 combos reapers lose.

not even gonna go into dynamic of full HB squad having half the squad shoot melee units on the move whereas reapers are completely impotent in that situation (dancing).

conclusion: reapers are balanced.

Now onto other things at hand.

[.42.]

You saw nothing wrong with the dr charging into standard bolter range while being shot by the HB Instead of using their range advantage over them?

conclusion I got from the test:
- for equal cost DR's win
- if you out spend the eldar and he has no micro you win
- DR + micro only hope is mass jump troops

I guess I'll stop here since I don't either of us will change positions.

[Sps]

And you continue to ignore the 15:15 csm charge with no HB where reapers use their maximum range vs vanilla csm and still lose, and you ignore the HB squad at full charging a reaper and reapers use their maximum range again and gain on setup time there as well, and reapers still lose.

the only time reapers win is if you use half a squad which quite frankly is stupid and if that squad were to win then reapers would need a MASSIVE buff to deal with that squad when its reinforced to full shielding those HB's further.

you ignoring the fact is not my problem.

[Korbah]

SPS the fact is that reapers + guards + FS = chaos pwnage. You might come up with some sort of senario that have reapers losing...but that's not how it happens in game. FS disrupts setup. FS can kill 3-4 marines with spells alone and guide DR's. CL will never get into combat. Talking about maxing out a csm squad just for meat is moot....eldar eco is superior - you'll always have enough DR's for the job.

Stats mean nothing when FoF micro is factored in. Eldar inf > chaos inf. Chaos cannot win against equal skill without imba sorc/defiler (assuming you can even get em).

[Sps]

Thats not how it happens in game because people want reapers to lose every engagement and insist on going about it the wrong way :

vs a full csm squad - reapers lose
vs a 4 man 4 hb squad - reapers win, the fact they dont lose here is what ticks people off
vs a full csm squad with heavy bolter - reapers lose

Now considering that obviously from the get go you have a csm squad beating reapers for cost, unless you make a mistake and go with option 2, you really need worry about guardians/fs only at that stage, and those are different issues altogether.

by themselves reapers are balanced and from the fact 2 full squads cant dent a set up csm squad - they do suck pop wise.


CL will never get into combat

Simply not true. Cl alone is enough to make those reapers move.

And insisting it be otherwise means that in your opinion to counter heavy bolter eldar would need 2x or more pop per Hb squad which would quickly add up to eldar losing after 10 pop of HB.


Some balance.