View Full Version : bloodthirster?
15th Sep 05, 10:17 PM
im just curious about the unit, i know it's got it's share of drawbacks, both due to design and due to people developing counters (i must admit i was surprised at hearing a BT could be killed by 2 dreads, assuming proper micro was applied.)
so i wanted to ask a couple things... is there any sort of valid use of the bloodthirster? i can see it as a sort of 'scare' unit. but anyone who knows how to counter it won't panic for long if at all.
and since i keep hearing about the tech-tree being rebalanced in winter assault, does anyone thing the blood-thirster will become more useful? and what would make it more useful?
ahem, regardless of how useful/less in competitive play, it's still one fun unit to deploy...
16th Sep 05, 12:10 AM
If you have full unit cap and more than enough money it is propably worth it to summon Bloodthirster as a "bonus" while if you have 20 pop cap and make BT you will have 25 pop cap. Hopefully they buff all super units for Winter Assault
16th Sep 05, 12:32 AM
The main reason people are disappointed with the bloodthirster is that they first see it and think they have an invincible game winning unit. They send it solo against an army and watch it get butchered, since it failed to take on an army by itself, they think it sucks.
Send a bloodthirster in WITH your army, and you shouldn't be disappointed. At worst, he'll draw a lot of fire, and that alone is worth a lot. If he solos against those theoretical two dreadnoughts, yeah, he'll lose, but when you have two armies clashing and you land the bloodthirster in the middle of their troops, they can't respond as well.
I'm not saying he doesn't need a buff, but if you have the opportunity to pull out a bloodthirster, it's worth doing.
16th Sep 05, 3:00 AM
Damn right Bloodthirsters are fun to deply (as you put it).
And yeah a Bloodthirster is even better when your army has been in combat for a while, and if you need a little bonus summon then he'll more likly turn the tide of that battle.
16th Sep 05, 5:59 AM
Comparatively, he's not very good. He could certainly use a buff.
He loses to 2 Dreadnoughts... well, that means that your 865/1010 unit, which requires Tier 3 and a Daemon Pit, just lost to about 340/700 worth of units. In comparison, while you had to say, obtain a Machine Pit, Sacrificial Pit, Daemon Pit and Tier 3, they had to obtain Tier 2 and a Machine Cult.
The Bloodthirster can do some awesome damage to infantry and is cost effective (very cost effective)... but then again, so are Dreadnoughts, of course, missile infantry won't drop him quite so quick.
But given the build time and resource cost, the BT is often a liability. Do you really want to have to wait at least 2 minutes (more if you have to construct the buildings) when they could be attacking with your forces equal + 3 Dreadnoughts, or 3 Defilers?
Even if he was as efficient as 3 Dreadnoughts (or Defilers... and he is, though it depends on the circumstances), his long build time makes you vulnerable, period. His only advantage is speed, and possibly reduced missile damage. But he is much more vulnerable to heroes, as well. Think about it, I'd take 2.5 (or 3) Defilers over him any day, unless I'm facing heavy anti-vehicle.
Of course, I speak in competitive 1v1 games. If you're maxed out on cap. and have a lot of resources, then you might as well build an uber unit. And he looks awesome, he is what made me play Chaos when I first started. =)
(Though great silly quotes like, "We neeeeeed enemies!" and their other, better quotes, and just their "flavor" in general is nice.)
16th Sep 05, 9:26 AM
ok, im glad people aren't just jumping down my throat 'cause i like the BT...
and i do agree/understand about using the bloodthirster as part of your army, its far more effective that way. but i do feel it needs some improvement so that it doesn't NEED a whole army to be effective. (not to say it equals = win button) but a unit that when deployed, scares the hell out of enemies.
so... what would make him better? a random thought would be a sort of pumped up version of the chaos taint, hurts enemy morale n stuff, just a whole lot more.
16th Sep 05, 9:44 AM
Don't build one often, but when I do I tend to hide some infiltrated Cultists along the edge of the map where enemy commanders won't detect them; then when our armies clash, sneak them to the back of their army..."RAAAR!!!" Big-arse demon surrounded by knocked-down missle marines, artillary, whathaveyou. Very hard to pull dreads/kans etc away from the front lines, through your own army to the big guy smashing everything.
But yeah, doesn't he have like 1/2 the dps of the Avatar? And less regen, and no morale aura, and no production bonus...
16th Sep 05, 9:50 AM
BT loses against 2 dreads but even if he loses against 2 dreads he would still take away 2 dreads of the enemy and alot of fire power. so your defilers and units can take out the rest of the army.
if you fight landraiders point 1 is he wont have so many dreads then and point 2 is that the landraider will go down faster then the BT so think he's good enouf...
wouldnt be fair against sm if he got even more stronger. Then they would have to fight a flamy b**** who does much dmg, or a dmg sponge, or the BT who would have much hp and much dmg or something (and what have they a tank...)
16th Sep 05, 10:15 AM
i have seen people use them to great effect, not in an outright assault, but by flying them into the oppositions base during the battle. The thirster can wipe out genorators really fast. Crippleing your enemys ability to reinforce for the second wave, or rest of the battle. Once done with the gens turn him on the barracks.
16th Sep 05, 1:39 PM
the BT is real good, while a with against infantry he does his nasty kill animations all the time and as we all know, as long as the kill animation is being displaied the unit wont take any damage.
he takes alot of fire from the rest of your army.
whining that the BT looses against 2 Dread´s is like whining about Sluggas loosing against WS :)
BT shouldnt be a "über" unit, if that would be the case every body would play DoW like CCG just "bunker and build the a-bomb fastern then the other one"
PS: yes i know that i will get flamed for the CCG sentence ;)
16th Sep 05, 2:14 PM
well, in the latest gamespot QA andrew chambers specifically says something like "you will be much more likely to see a BT walking around even in a 1v1 (in WA)." i assume this is bc of lower build time/cost (which he says all later tier units will be getting a reduction in) and bc battles will be lasting longer and more often into tier 3.
by the way, when i get a BT i usually only use him for killing buildings, tanks or infantry... a lot of death animations = a lot of survival time. if an enemy hero or mult walkers start attacking him FLY HIM OUT OF THERE... that is one of his advantages you know.
16th Sep 05, 2:35 PM
I respect that even uber units need hard counters. Walkers and heroes, for example.
But saying that taking away 2 dreadnoughts from his army is worth the Bloodthirster is silly. Why don't I just build 3 (or 4, or 5 with the saved tech resources) Dreadnoughts/Defilers instead? That way I'll also probably have them when I need them.
And as for the comparison to Sluggas and Warp Spiders... alright, sure, let's say Walkers are the hard counter to the Bloodthirster.
What are 'thirsters a good counter to? Infantry? Well, frankly, that's not THAT tough, since walkers and tac squads can both do that job.
Just, in comparison, take the Space Marine's Orbital Relay. I can drop Dreadnoughts into their rear ranks just as effectively, the building isn't too expensive (resource wise you'll come out short on power if you field the Relay and 2 dreadnoughts, but you'll have more Req.), and I get Orbital Bombardment.
One of the reasons I like Space Marines is that their Tier 3 is actually usable.
16th Sep 05, 3:26 PM
One of the reasons I like Space Marines is that their Tier 3 is actually usable.
same here, but i also would rather the game have more to it than just massing of one or 2 unit types and then washing over the opponent. hence, i feel the BT should be improved or otherwise altered to be more effective, same goes for a lot of the underused units.
17th Sep 05, 2:27 AM
I pretty much think the should get buffs to there anti-vehicle penetration. They are monstrous creatures and have the power to take down Dreadnoughts both in the TT and Fluff. IF and I say IF the Avatar and Bloodthirster have "hard counters" they are the heros. The FC and Lib have bonuses fighting demons and the Chaos Lord and Sorc do awsome damage to Monster armour. The FS and SC can be a problem though, as I'm not sure they can pull off the same performnce. However this is all changed with the squiggy.
You should try to run a bloodthirster against infantry, not vehicles. You should try to jump into an enemy infantry cluster, and try to keep your bloodthirster in kill animations at all times.
Melee units suck against vehicles(I'm looking at you, Tankbusta). Melee units function as negation units, they are supposed to force units to enter the "run for your life!" mode. Unfortunately, vehicles will continue to fire while engaged in melee combat(unlike infantry), and many vehicles can continue to offer accurate damage while running from melee units that can actually damage them.
17th Sep 05, 4:10 AM
I agree, Inst, that the 'thirster is at his best against infantry. He is cost effective against infantry, but as I said before, so are other vehicles. And, you're right, as a melee unit he suffers from the syndrome all melee units suffer from.
I'm not sure if the BT should just be buffed in the A-V department, Andaius. I think a more general health buff might help, along with some damage. Or generating an unholy aura of fear, or something equally pleasant. Though I think I'd prefer the former solution, since the BT's role is sort of anti-infantry currently anyways and he's not entirely incompetent in that role.
And to Shyft, I will always support the every unit having a useful, worthwhile role. That's one thing that bugs me about Dawn of War, even if all 4 matchups were perfectly equal, if 33% of the game units are very scantly used, the game's not balanced. Yea, I support the ubiquitous cause of game balance. Amen.
The BT doesn't really share the characteristic weakness of other melee units: most melee units are horrible at dealing damage. He can jump attack squads, if my memory serves correctly: when you jump into a mass of enemy infantry, the Bloodthirster will stomp into the infantry as he lands, and when he gets up.
Of course, the BT belongs into a different category of unit, when the BT actually sees combat, the game has entered a phase involving 20/20 armies. What limits other jump troops is not their damage dealing ability, but their survivability. The BT has this in spades.
17th Sep 05, 5:33 AM
You can jump once with a Bloodthirster (perhaps twice?). So, yes, his jump attack is, um, "nice."
For his cost (Sacrificial Pit and his construction), including the cost of the Orbital Relay, I can deepstrike about 2 Dreadnoughts and a terminator squad. And call down Orbital Bombardment. Or jump 3 Prisms (and I'd have requisition left over for troops) into the enemy's ranks (admittedly, they are not hand to hand, but do disrupt.)
Sorry, but as I said before, unless you're facing heavy anti-vehicle (and in the former case you'd need to be facing more than 3 missile squads before they could even do reliable damage to your Dreadnoughts, since you have 3 squads/units to tie 'em up with), the BT really does fall short.
I'm tempted to suggest we play a 1v1 Quickstart with nigh equal forces (e.g. marines, each have a FC/CL, predators, while you have a BT and I have Orbital Bombardment/2 Dreads/1 full Squad of Terminators with Apoth and see who wins.)
17th Sep 05, 5:42 AM
To get a BT you need :
-BT for 800/1010
In term of time, it's about 15 min if you dont do anything else.
Can you do this in 1vs1 ? No.
What do you get for all this money ? An unit which provide no bonus to your army, die FAST (man i've seen reaper+blats slice him in less than 30 sec) and self-destruct ? No thanks, it just sucks.
17th Sep 05, 9:16 AM
in one on one, it's just plain stupid to pull a BT unless you either outclass your opponent, or have no other options. (i have played 1v1 games where it got to teir 3, maybe 2 games, ever, but i have played them.)
the bloodthirster at the moment is basically a team-only unit. i would enjoy it more if it wasn't... random idea. how about this: why not give the bloodthirster upgrades?
like, lower the total cost/build time of the BT, and since it's held in reserve, you don't have to worry about it dying due to not being in combat, and have upgrades that partially cover it's current 'lite' form.
say, a BT with no upgrades is actually worse than one as it exists right now, it'd only be really really good against infantry. but buy some upgrades, and damn, you might have yourself a kick-ass unit... say, an armor/defense upgrade that reduces all non-hero damage, or at least reduces damage done by vehicles. maybe an upgrade that adds a new attack, or another that makes the non-kill aninmation attacks cycle faster. or something.
BT sucks because compared to SM tier 3, nothing else comes close, especially so-called ubers.
When a Chaos player sees 2-3 dropped Dreds wreak havoc to his own ranks, then watch his own fly-in BT try to do the same but easily get neturalized by more dropped Dreds, heroes, and enemy missiles, the only thing he can think is "WTF."
Do Dreds fear enemy heroes? No. Do Dred drops cost so much in time and res? No. Do they do just as good a job as BT, prolly better? Yeah.
If BT don't get a special aura such as the Chaos building taint, then it should be more resistant to missiles. WTF it's not a vehicle, besides heroes and walkers already neutralize it.
17th Sep 05, 11:21 AM
I used to think that the BT was a vaunted piece of crap. But then I realized his real uses:
1. Disruptor: Tier 3 battles tend to get real crowded and real messy. Micromanagement time is thus at a premium. Don't have the BT lead your army, keep him back. Most tier 3 armies have their walkers and whatnot in the front and their missile and support infantry in the back. Once engaged, jump the BT in. Physcologically this is a huge shock for the enemy. Tactically it's devastating. You've just knocked down most of his infantry and soon the BT will be swinging and knocking down some more. Any unit that required setup, will be useless. You automatically gain a huge tactical advantage. If he wants to fight the BT with melee walkers, he's going to have to pull back his frontline units and that is always an automatic defeat.
Harasser: The flying ability is great for jumping LPs and other weaker areas, taking these things out is always a way to screw with your enemy
The main point is: the BT is NOT a frontline unit, and therefore should not be used as such.
17th Sep 05, 11:30 AM
Melee units suck against vehicles
17th Sep 05, 2:10 PM
And Ecthelion, I'm sure that's true.
However, if I just build 3 Defilers (with numerous tac squads) instead, do you think that'll work just as well? Not to mention all of these units being available before I get the Bloodthirster himself out? Whereas the BT would involve leaving myself vulnerable in the upgrade to Tier 3 and all that?
I daresay it probably would it would work just as well.
17th Sep 05, 3:16 PM
it's rather silly with the BT as it is now to consider it a replacement for a normal army. it isn't. its at best an addition, or distraction, or specialized unit. and since it can be summoned regardless of pop cap or time, once it's built of course. it might just swing the battle.
in the above example, lets say you do have the defilers and tac squads, and the game is going normally, but no one is winning, you have extra cash, so you que up a blood thirster. you replenish your forces as you loose them, etc, and bam, your BT is ready.
now, you could just win with the aforementioned tac squads and defilers, but you may be stalled out, or something stops you, whatever. this situtation is where the BT can shine. like others have said: make a BT, jump it to the infantry, and let it wreak havoc.
18th Sep 05, 3:52 PM
In my oppinion a BT is a thing that shouldn't be used until late on because of the costs. But sacrificing an aspring champion for a ready made BT seems worthwhile if you have already maxed out your army. You can then take out his infantry so yours have more freedom. At the very least the BT will draw fire from your main army.
18th Sep 05, 4:27 PM
Just had a go with the infiltrated unit/BT strat above. Works very well, your opponent sees the rips in the ground in the middle of his base then a champion appears, goes up in the air and ! blammo ! 1 BT for the arse kicking with. When your defending your base against a big attack and he has no base cover you could theoretically defend your entire base less 1 squad and trash his before he can get back. Infiltrated CSM are really useful, plus you can get 4 missile launchers in there to, with frenzy ?
19th Sep 05, 3:46 PM
BlueJackal's advice is the best here, I reckon. He's totally right that the BT simply involves too much of a wait while the required massive resources just sit there doing nothing to help you until you FINALLY get the BT.
Once the game gets well into Tier 3 something strange happens and resources become plentiful and the BT becomes a possibility. By that stage, though, people are doing things like getting three machine cults and spamming dreds. By then, the game is kinda 'already over' because one player will win without much use of strategy. Unfortunately, most of the fanciful descriptions of 'strategies' for the BT given here are only really relevant to that final, rather strategy-less stage . . . unless they have dumbass opponents who let the bloodthirster be built much sooner. The BT therefore becomes just one other big fighting unit in the final mass of resource-driven spamming but will, unfortunately, most likely only arrive a minute or two AFTER its oppenent has started spamming the chaos side with those dreds so the chaos side will be in trouble.
As an ork player it's especaily improtant for me to continually put pressure on my opponents. This gives them no room to save much money, so I can always be fairly sure that they've got no BT on the way.
Right now, the BT is basically a "I Win, Victory Parade" final unit.
Squiggy has battle usage, considering how sucky Ork vehicles are.
Avatar has eco usage.
19th Sep 05, 4:50 PM
LOL, that's so true. :lol: I sometimes get a Bloodthirster in a long team game, but all he ever gets to do is kick some HQ to death.
19th Sep 05, 5:11 PM
The BT is like the Obliterators, a joke. It is the weakest of all the super units in the game. It loses health simply by being; it needs to be in melee combat to do any good; by watching an Ork vs Eldar game you can see the flaw in that design. Like Obliterators the BT is nothing but style and has no tactical or strategic use other then using up resources. I have never built a Deamon Pit since 1.2 because there isn't anything there that could replace or augment my current force. CSMs with missiles and plamsa are better then equivilant pop cap of Oblits. Missiles with Laz preds are better then the BT and harder to kill.
Chaos' tier 3 is a joke when compared to the SM's tier 3, then again no army has the same firepower at tier 3 that SM does. Chaos is the weakest once they hit tier 3 since there is nothing there other then laz preds.
The only successful tier 3 use of Chaos was in that 1v1 auto replay where the player harassed with Raptors for the longest time, then somehow teched to Oblits while SM was still in plasmass stage.
I had expected SM plasmass to rape Oblits. I was like "WTF Oblits LOLz," then the Oblits annihilated the SM army and I was like 8-O
19th Sep 05, 11:55 PM
How the heck does that work, the SM too stupid to kite the oblits so the plasma never got fired?
20th Sep 05, 12:09 AM
There's a replay on DoWsanc, 412nv vs Alendor, on VoK. Alendor pins his opponent in his base, then spams nob leaders. He's too slow getting the crits though, so his 412nv techs to mass Oblits, which promptly slaughter Alendor's army in about 30 seconds....impressive stuff.
Yeah, oblits are pretty decent as "fill in the gap troops", when both armies have annihilated each other, Daemon pit quickly replaces your army with obliterators.
Hay, just out of curiosity, does it work out?
Since 5 obliterators are very cheap units (total cost 1300/500), You'll probably have the req left to actually build a bloodthirster!
Unfortunately, Las Preds are very mediocre when compared to the allpowerful ownage of Defilers. It might actually be interesting to make Las Preds Tier 2, though the cost would probably be excessive, and Defilers Tier 3.
20th Sep 05, 3:49 AM
I agree that the daemon pit doesn't really provide the chaos army with anything it needs. Also, isn't it weird that the horrors (and perhaps psm) don't come from the daemon pit?!
Obliterators are better than almost everything else Chaos has for cost, barring defilers.
20th Sep 05, 5:10 AM
Oblits are the most cost-effective unit in whole game (i think), 1 Oblit costs 85/25 and has lots of hp, lascannon, assault cannon, plasma gun & flamer. You don't need very muck money to spam them. So they are actually very useful.
20th Sep 05, 8:04 PM
The only problem is that Oblits cost 1 pop cap each and for cap Marines will do a much better job. Which would you rather have 100 marines with 25 heavy weapons or 40 Oblits? The Marines will have more HP per pop when fully maxed and will be more flexible since you will have 10 squad of CSMs rather than 5 squads of Oblits. The CSMs will reinforce faster 9 seconds compared to 25(!) seconds of the Oblits. Target finders don't affect the Oblits only the CSMs. CSMs can infiltrate, have Aspiring Champions, equip heavy weapons, and use frag grenades. You may as well just put down a second barracks just to pump out CSMs quicker if you need troops that badly.
When you take into the DPS of the regular bolter Marines the squad DPS for the Marines will be much higher than the Oblits. Combine that with Heavy weapons and the Marines will win hands down. For cap Oblits suck, horribly suck. Sure they may be cost effective but that isn't something you really need at tier 3 when SM is smashing dreads into your base and the only things they need to kill is your HQ, Barracks, sac pit, machine pit, and Deamon pit. Since Oblits have no way of killing heavy infantry, heros, and vehicles quickly, GG - your base. Being a damage sponge isn't something that makes a great unit unless that unit is in some way dangerous. Also, being a poor-man's Chaos Space Marine isn't something that gets the Slaanesh hotties.
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