DoW=better FPS

[Flakflak]

So, recently I saw a video that one of my freinds linked to me, it was on file-front called 412.

Yea so today I went out and bought the game, and man was I psyched.

I have never seen a RTS like that, I mean I have played EE2, and then CC Generals, but anyway.

So I have been pretty much playing it all day, doing everything I can, Multiplayer, singeplayer, campaign, skirmish mode. It was so fun. Zooming in on the combat ect. It got a little laggy, only because my graphics card isnt the best (9800) but I blocked out the frame-rate problems because of the fun I was having.

But honestly this game is probably the perfect format for an FPS. Guns/Melee? That would be sweet.

I mean, think of DoW, with HL2 or Q4 graphics, but only WH40k with awsome online class/objective play with 64 players duking it out as whatever they wanted to be :fight: ?

[Question]

Think of how you are going to balance everything else vs guardsmen,and guardsmen in full gear bunnyhopping away from khornate berserkers

[CrossOrion]

There's an FPS 40k mod for Battlefield 2. No idea how its progressing, but go look for it. should be on BF2files or something similar.

Only real way is to not include guardsmen ;p

[Zakuno2]

http://www.battlefield40k.com/forums/

It's being done.

[Question]

And its been done.I played a WH40K mod for HL.Aside from the fact that there was less than 5 servers,all in america or europe, it suffered from bunnyhopping issues,weapon balancing problems, and melee problems.They "solved" the running backwards while shooting problem by making you unable to fire ranged weapons and get slowed to a crawl after being hit by a melee weapon.This basically caused people to abuse it by hitting someone once with a melee weapon,running away and shooting(As he cant shoot back and cant run away), then repeating the cycle.

[CrossOrion]

I believe BF2 has a more 'realistic' engine then HL, but I'm not the one to quote for it.

[EzyKill]

there was a FPS made in the 40k universe, fire warrior.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

there was a FPS made in the 40k universe, fire warrior.And let us never speak of it again.

[Uncle Benny]

LOL Seriously, if you go play original Wolf3D, Doom I, and maybe Quake I, and pretend it's about 1990, THEN play FireWarrior, it seems... well, not as horribly bad... :dolt:
On a rare on-topic moment for me, if anyone has played the Quake 4 demo, there is some drool-worthy trench warfare, with occasional mechs in the background...
Now, that is more of a WH40k-type environment!

[LoneWolf666]

With multiplayer, some sides could cause problems, like the awfully weak IG. Perhaps adding bots or commanders who could spawn them, better air and artillery support than other races, etc.

The single player is what would rock the most.

Few campaigns, perhaps for each race, where you start as a guardsmen (think Call Of Duty, russian campaign), then switch races from human to Tau to Eldar to whatever, and at last, you change into a Space Marine for the uberness we all secretely crave. :D

If done well, this could easily turn out to be the most action packed FPS in the galaxy.

Scenarios are quite easy, too. City fighting, amphibious assaults, Thunderhawk raids (oh yeah, the pilotable vehicles are in, all right), tank battles with Titans in the rear and air support overhead, drop pod landings, space hulk purging, Space Marine training (Space Wolf, anyone?), all this could be implemented in a whole campaign on a few planets. Even better if the game sticked to the fluff, and better than that, if it would add a little itself.

[Paladin]

Just don't let anyone jump. Seriously, with all the gear you're carrying...

[them apples]

are you running on full settings?
I cant see how a 9800 gets lag.

I'm running on medium settings and only get some slowdown in fps when there are a lot of models on screen.
I have an mx440 128mb(which sucks) but I will be buying an x800 which should be enough to run full settings smooth.

[Chris]

Just don't let anyone jump. Seriously, with all the gear you're carrying...


It's called power armour though. As in, armour that is powered. :p

[voidlore]

There's a 40k mod for UT2004, there's a public beta out right now. Not many servers up but it's pretty fun if a little unbalanced. Called UT40k, do a google search if you're interested.

[doeden]

Well, I'm glad you enjoyed 412 flakflak, one of the purposes is to draw new faces.

Back on to the topic at hand. As for a WH40k FPS thats good, I think we can all agree that there does indeed need to be one. However, following in the footsteps of a game like Quake 4, while being fun for a FEW levels, isnt the best option.

What is Quake 4? Well, just like most PC big FPS titles its all about the graphics, we dont really want that. Because all Q4 is, is stopping and shooting them in the head and they are dead. also there is little to no interaction with the enemy and the AI/Gameplay is boring, if not horrible.
This is where a WH40k game should shine, is the interaction and gameplay which if done correctly would be so utterly addicting.

1st, you would need to add melee, whether or not its the "main" focus of the game or not, it NEEDS to be there. You cant have WH40k as the title and not have it.
2nd, Most, if not all races need to be playable. I mean Orks, Space-marines, Tau, Daemonhunters(maybe Singeplayer only) Eldar ect.
3rd, There WILL be a difference between the races, IE the Ork take a beating and keep breathing ect.
4th, This needs to focused on Multiplayer. So there needs to be assualt/objective and teamDM/DM modes, and more. Singleplayer does not last long enough in replayability, this games popularity would be in the Multi.
5th, all fields of war, im talking space and ground. Also, vehicles NEED to be there, and yes to make it feel more like WH40k, there needs to be some reasonably intelligent AI teamates on both sides which you could give commands and lead into battle.
6th, finally, some sort of "rank" gaining, im not talking full fledged MMORPG style, just simple in-that-map of the moment upgrading. Get 6 kills in a row? You gained access to a power-sword. Get 10? Power fist. Get 15? Battle shout +20 Defense/Speed to all nearby allies. Get 20? Plasma Gun ect. Reason being people love when they get rewarded for things, whether big or small, it keeps them immersed and happy. Without it, again multiplayer would be like any other game.

However I think what would MOSTLY set others apart is simply the melee/ranged that this game would offer. Also, while the graphics shouldnt be the main focus, you would need something like BF2/HL2/Q4/DOOM3 to get some of those "oh sweet" moments.

[Question]

It is a nightmare balancing melee in FPS.......the whole bunnyhop thing ruins it.

[Lazerguy]

It is a nightmare balancing melee in FPS.......the whole bunnyhop thing ruins it.

AMEN BROTHER!!!

HALO!!! You have stolen my soul!!!

*Returns to his corner mumbling and weeping about plasma pistols and pistol whipping...*

[doeden]

Theres a simple solution to that. Make it to where when you jump once you cant do it again without slowing down, ALA CS;S.

GG bunnyhoppers.

[Zakuno2]

Make it so that when you pull out a melee weapon it goes to third person. 1st person hacking is never cool. but if your watching in 3 person as you character is doing random slashes with a power sword, that is more gratifying.

[LoneWolf666]

So that's basically an ET/Halo hybrid.

[Compeador]

lol and what engine would be used for the third person melee fighting? I nominate Soul Calibur :)

this topic has been raised several times ... and the BF2 mod looks slightly promising.

Oh, and to fix bunny hopping CS:S has it almost right... I can still manage to get four or five good sized hops in before I have to run again. I'd sayjust don't let people jump. Or make jumps less useful, with ladders and grapple points being better.

[yandaoben]

An idea I've thought of is once two opponents clash with close combat weapons, the screen switches from FPS view to 3rd person view, which they then control their character arcade or RPG style.

[Paladin]

Honestly I don't see the point of letting people jump. It's not like in real life you'd be doing a lot of jumping.

And yes I'm aware of power armor, but not everyone in 40k wears power armor... Somehow I can't see Guardsmen doing a lot of jumping with all their gear... And honestly even power armored marines I don't see doing much bunny hopping. It's undignified.

Most FPS games let you walk way too fast too. For something like a 40k game you'd want to make people walk at a more realistic rate. That way melee would be a little more effective.

The really difficult thing isn't all that though, it's creating a melee system that's involved and requires skill. Something like Jedi Academy...

Actually now that I think about it... If you managed to implement an autoblocking system like the JK games (Where you automatically parry if you have a CC weapon out and you aren't swinging your weapon) you can keep people from bunnyhopping so much just by making them more vulnerable while in the air... Your parry becomes weak and you can be easily hacked in half while jumping.

[Compeador]

Whoa, just looked at the BF40K mod... looks flippin sweet! i had no idea they had one for BF 1942... it'll be amazing for BF2. Might even get me to start playing it again to get reused to the gameplay.

[peturabo]

I really hope they dont make an FPS of it.
Can't stand FPS games they are so noobish.

[Civik]

I think it would make an awful action fps. You'd get a bunch of Non-w40kers crying because it didn't play like quake or halo.

Then the dev team would cave and make it more like quake or halo.

An RPG/FPS though, now that would be cool.

I think it's possible, you just need to send a commissar to oversee the dev team and make certain they do it right. ;)

[CrossOrion]

Switching from First Person to Third person... Wasn't there a star wars game that did that? The name eludes me for the moment.. although it might be just some thing with lightsabres.

[Foegrimm]

God this is so easy to do you have to think outside of the box.
First what do we want to capture?
I say the gritty blood soaked depressing future of war. We do this by giving real consequences to death and making the gameplay more tactical and realistic. You also force teamplay and make true innovations to the FPS genre.

Heres my take on it.

Tactical FPS shooter involving at least three races lets say Humans, Eldar, and Orks. City fighting with destructable enviroments, craters, and dynamic lighting effects. Gameplay revolves around using team mates and cover to accomplish mission goals. You can upgrade your character according to how many kills you have and you respawn according to how many kills you have and you can go backwards by dying alot.

To force teamplay all respawns for a team happen at regular intervals. So everyone who has died on a team will respawn at the same time in a fluffy way, for example marines will ride into battle in a rhino. How cool would that be to be seated in a Rhino all dark and looking at other players while the Rhino bounces up and down and you hear the sounds of battle outside. Then the doors swing open there is blinding light and all of you rush out into the battle together.

Respawn intervals can also simulate superior numbers without having to have superior numbers of human players. Humans respawn every minute, eldar every two minutes, orks every 30 seconds. So if you die as an ork no big deal and your play style can reflect their reckless disregard for their own safety continually surging forward as a green tide laughing and shooting as they go. You die as an eldar player and your going to have to sit awhile.

Humans: Are marines and work their way up from bolters tacticals to assault cannon wielding Terminators. Marines cannot jump, they run at realistic speeds (most FPS allow the character to run about 20-30MPH), they can take an unreal amount of punishment, and dish out awesome fire power. Marine players are locked in first person perspective.

Eldar: Start as whatever aspect the player chooses and can work their way up to exarch. Blindingly fast, can bunny hop, but if you shoot them theyll die fast and they take a long time to respawn. This will make the eldar player cherish his life and plan ambushes and hit and run attacks. Eldar melee characters are played in 3rd person to simulate the eldar mastery of CC and awareness to their surroundings.

Orks: Quickly and constantly respawn and have no penalties for dying. They start as boyz and can end up as war bosses. They are easy to kill as boyz and get very hard to kill as nobs.
Their play style is wild and reckless and an ork player will gladly rush into a group of marines just to kill one of them because when he respawns hell be that much closer to becoming a nob. This will make longer games tend to favor the ork players because theyll just keep comming back bigger n meaner!

You have to balance using gameplay mechanics instead of making every character capable of countering every other character. Its just like DOW theoretically Eldar is the ultimate race you should never be able to lose but no one can micro eldar to that level of dominace. So in this 40K FPS team game you make each side as fluffy as possible and use respawns and player rewards to balance the sides instead of making each side roughly equivalent.

Marines and eldar just flat out butcher Orks but the Orks keep comming and their getting bigger and meaner. Shoot a marine player and hes still there shooting back at you. Yes its damn hard to hit an eldar and yes they are bunning hopping and circle straffing and ducking into cover. But their shots dont hurt has much and if you kill one it will be awhile before you see that player again. Orks respawn close to the front lines of the battle and respawn quickly. Marines take a long ride in a Rhino to battle. Eldar respawn at their warp gate after an excrutiating wait. Let the eldar Banshees get into your group of marines and your in big trouble but getting that group of banshees into the midst of marines involves using a lot of cover and ambush tactics.

Fluffy but balanced thats my goal and thats a game I would play forever.

[Paladin]

It would work best as an RTS/FPS hybrid in the spirit of Natural Selection, Savage, Battlezone, etc.

[Zakuno2]

Maybe we can do Melee like KOTOR did it. Thats gratifying Melee there.

[Bald_Terror]

I really hope they dont make an FPS of it.
Can't stand FPS games they are so noobish.
FPS games arent nOObish because YOU say they are, I assume your a genre snob, the worst kind of gamer...

I think you will find many RTS gamers also enjoy FPS just as much, comments like yours have no place in a thread like this.

I would so love to see a decent "Tactical FPS" made of this franchise, its begging for the right treatment and with all the crap being churned out at the moment would be gratefully recieved by many thinking FPS players.

[doeden]

What he said. ^

[Brenil]

It is a nightmare balancing melee in FPS.......the whole bunnyhop thing ruins it.
As a former modder for BF1942 and BF2, I can tell you this is absolutely not true if you aim for it. The major problem is, alot of FPS players like bunny hopping or are indifferent to it. They believe it shows skill if you can dodge like that, which it does actually... but it also takes away from the experience. Alot of the quabbles mentioned here that would make a 40k FPS crap are easily avoidable if the right people make it.

Basically, what you need are people who appreciate a quality experience that relies on skill of a different order, timing, techinque, and aim. For example, the original Day of Defeat was a good example of making a game engross you in the enviroment with very few things that made it feel 'cheap'. Granted the new Day of Defeat: Source threw this forumla out the window and went the easy Counter-strike in WWII route.. but it shows.. at least in the past, it's possible.

Anyway to solve bunny hopping, I already have in BF2. Just make it where you cannot use your weapon while hopping and you jump a realistic height (2 feet) and lose stamina while jumping, out of stamina, no more jumping. Bunny hopping fixed. I think the real issue is making it so the game doesn't look speed freaked like Day of Defeat.. everyone should run/walk by default and have to use energy to run... otherwise the game is too fast paced and then it becomes less engrossing.

[Paladin]

I would say stamina bars are annoying to manage. I'd let people run, but just slow it down to a realistic running speed (Which the speed you move at in quake3 or UT are not).

I still say it would be best as an RTS/FPS hybrid like natural selection though. Having a commander adds a whole extra dimension to a game.

What I'd really like to see is an RTS/FPS hybrid that actually let the commander build combat units... AI bots basically, which would be weaker/slower than the human players... It's kind of nice to feel like you're one of the uber heroes, but it works best when there's cannon fodder around. But of course no one wants to be the cannon fodder... So use bots. And of course, enough bots would bring down a player, so they wouldn't be pointless.

[Kirjava]

Anyone gonna comment on what foegrimm put a bit of effort into writing? Personally it sounds great; don't think it would take much effort to slap in a third race just to appease fluff fans though.

[Question]

Day of defeat suffered from the flaw of huge campage.It nearly impossible to capture the flags,what with having to go through the entire team camping there and your entire team camping on the other side of the flag.You would even see people camping in completely irrelevant places for some reason,just sitting there with nothing to shoot.

Best scenario was when both teams were sitting at their base spawn flags......me and a friend on the other team just spent the entire time re-capping the center flag and racking up incredible scores.They just refused to budge their sniper rifles and MGs from their comfortable camping positions.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Oh something else to consider... could you make Pistol and CCW a single weapon choice? Primary fire swings the chainsword (or whatever it is), secondary fires the pistol. Combine that with jump packs for a lot of races and you've got pretty decent assault troops.

[Question]

Yes that was done in the HL mod.

Brenil : then yo uget the problem of people firing ranged weapons pointblank ranged.

[LoneWolf666]

Then make the pistol weak. Furthermore, make it so that if a player gets hit by a CC weapon while he is still holding a ranged one, he gets insane amounts of damage. Would be better to just pul out a knife and fight. :)

[Question]

That wouldnt be a balanced idea at all.

Firstly its not remotely realistic.I know the focus is on gameplay but theres something called suspension of disbelief.

Secondly there would be huge problems of players getting killed in only a few hits if they were,say,rounding a corner,got ambushed and still had the ranged weapon because they never had time to switch.The problem is you dont want people backpedaling or standing there firing ranged weapons at zerkers or whatever,it looks ridiculous.

[Mordach]

I would LOVE to see a well-made W40k FPS... As long as it's fairly fluffy! With the various races and incredible weaponry the W40k universe inhabits, an FPS would make a GREAT game...

As for the melee part, I've been thinking about a cc system that might work very well:
How about 'locking' meleeing characters in close combat? When in cc the view could switch to 3rd person, allowing the players a better view over the combat situation.

When charging into cc you draw your melee weapon, and get a movement speed boost and an attack bonus for the first few seconds. So charging an enemy is actually worthwhile, and if a good cc system is evolved, it would be AWESOME to duke it out in melee against your opponents...
When you reach melee distance with your opponent, he would automatically draw his cc weapon. (If he didn't draw it before cc you would get the first attack.)

When fighting in cc, the two (or more) fighters are 'locked' in a circular movement evolving around each other's axis, so sidestepping would make you move around the opponent, while still facing him automatically. The mouse is in cc used for directing cc attacks, with say, 8 different swing angles - up, below, left and right, plus the inbetweens (upper left, lower right and so on). Also you'd have swings and stabs depending on the weapon. (A Chainsword could have more powerful stabs and excellent parrying abilities, while a Chain-Axe could have more powerful swings and block-breaking abilities.) Aiming at the center would make a stab attack. Sidestepping to the left would allow your enemy decreased chance to deflect a blow from the left unless he sidestepped accordingly to your movements.

Certain attack combinations and weapon combinations, perhaps even some characters could open up special attacks that could either be unblockable, do massive damage or disarm your opponent and so on..

CC weapons can, if swung in the right angles according to your adversary's attacks, block or deflect the blow. Attacks in cc would have a slight delay allowing the opponent a brief chance to spot where the blow lands, giving him a chance to attempt to block the attack. Different weapons would have different attack- and deflecting abilities, so a Sword or Power Sword (when successfully blocking) could parry the attack and allow a quick counter-attack.

Pistols can be used in cc, but would have to be aimed like a cc weapon at the opponent while fighting, and so the opponent would have a chance to block the gun aim.

When fighting with more than one melee weapon, you could hold the left button for the left weapon, and right button for the right weapon. This would allow you to say, deflect an enemy's blow with your Power Sword, while drawing your Bolt Pistol and blowing out his guts while he's reeling from the blow.

To get out of cc you'd have to either break morale and flee, or manually leave combat by say, pressing a button, but this would allow your adversary to get a hit in before you can break cc.

Players in cc would get a defense bonus against ranged attacks, plus if shooting into melee you could have a 50% chance to hit either person.

Stuff like this would make an FPS different than other games, and for a 40k FPS to be successful you'd have to have a good melee combat system. What the developers need to do is to really think out of the box, and dare to try something different and new...

[Question]

The engine that can do that would be very very impressive.

[Mordach]

..But it's not impossible to make it happen, and thus the game would be even more impressive...

As for ranged combat, I think that a system which would make armour different than other FPS games would be perfect.
Instead of just doing less damage when shooting an armoured person, the weapons should have armour penetration values, as well as the armour having protection values - chance to deflect damage, and damage reduced if successfully deflected.

So, a person with a Lasgun shooting at a person in Power Armour, would have something like this equation:
(These values are just theoretical, something to show you an example)

Lasgun Armour Penetration Value (APV) = 30
Lasgun Damage (dmg) = 25

Power Armour value (AV) = 100
Power Armour Deflection Default (DD) = 10

Lasgun shot hits the Power armour
Power Armour AV - Lasgun APV = 70 (70% chance of deflecting attack)
An armour roll is made, and it rolls 50 (which leaves 20% of Armour Value. Let's call this Deflection Value, DV)

Lasgun dmg - Power Armour DV = 20 dmg
20 - Power Armour DD = 10

Lasgun shot does 10 damage to the player in Power Armour.
If the rolls had been different, the Power Armour could easily have deflected all the damage done by the Lasgun, or none at all.

...or something like that...? Maybe not, but you get the point: we want something different than in the "old" FPS games.

[Brenil]

Day of defeat suffered from the flaw of huge campage.It nearly impossible to capture the flags,what with having to go through the entire team camping there and your entire team camping on the other side of the flag.

I didn't say Day of Defeat was perfect. I said it was engrossing to the enviroment it was trying to represent. Real war is slow in progress, particularly in infantry city battles (which DoD is). Also the engine that DoD is based on doesn't do open enviroments (still doesn't), therefore the maps had to be constricted, thus the camping problem. The comparison to Day of Defeat was purely based on few game mechanic problems and an engrossing feel.


Brenil : then yo uget the problem of people firing ranged weapons pointblank ranged.

What? Wrong person?

As I said before, the game can be made, but it has to be made by people who love FPS and love the Warhammer 40k universe. You have to remember, fewer and fewer original games are being made... so really the only hope for originality comes from us, the players. Developers are continously being pressured by their publishers to make a game that sticks to a 'winning formula' that will assure commerial success.

Thus why we see so many of the same damn games coming out... developers are playing it safe because publishers are breathing down their throat. Once developers start publishing their own games, like Valve, we'll see a rebirth of originality and hopefully more involving the rich W40k universe.

[Paladin]

Unfortunately I think "People who love FPS games" can sort of foul things up, because they tend to be too attached to the conventions of the genre to really deviate from formula.

[doeden]

Guys, technically there is no real way you can balance guns vs melee.

People will always gripe, there will always be problems, and further more there will always be ways of getting around it.

[Mordach]

Guys, technically there is no real way you can balance guns vs melee.
That's some of the point. In TT or DoW/WA, ranged vs melee isn't really balanced towards each other, but who says it should be or can be? In a W40k FPS, if the melee system was good enough, people would want to get in cc just for the fun of it becasue it would simply ROCK having a good melee fight instead of just pointing your crosshairs at someone and push a button.

With a good melee system which makes it interesting and exciting to duke it out in close combat, it doesn't really need to be balanced as long as melee is an option for those that want to fight in melee, either occationally or most of the time.

I for one, would really enjoy a good choppin' against someone in close combat if the system made it an interesting and enjoyable fight. This would add much needed variation to an FPS game, and IMO a good (or even moreso, brilliant) cc system would be nescessary for a W40k FPS to make it.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Actually take a look at say Jedi Knight or Jedi Academy. People use the sabers in that like nobodies business, but they equally don't completely dominate the guns.

[Foegrimm]

Again people on this thread are showing a lack of creative thinking and trying to make games that emulate others. In my mind no one has created a game yet that would do justice to the 40K liscense in a tactical FPS team setting. Heres how to solve melee vs circle straffing backpeddling.

Look to real life and why it doesnt work. First off you can only run backwards about 1/3 to half as fast as you can forwards. Someone backpeddling away from a charging beserker will get caught. Secondly your accuracy while running is almost non existant and while running backwards its even worse. You have to add a blooming targeting recticle that goes very wide when running backwards. Sure you may get in a lucky shot but chances are you are going to miss that charging melee character.

Doesnt this make melee dominate? If everyone is doing their own thing then yes but again you look to real life and players will begin to realize you have to maintain squad coherency or you will be cut to ribbons.

Now what if you are a melee character? Avoid the wide open spaces because youll never reach the shooters. Maps will have lots of alleys and corners to turn this will make melee ambushes a terrorfying aspect of moving through a city. Again cover plays a huge role in any decent 40K FPS.

If you want people to play in a certain style then you have to create the game to make that style the easiest and funnest way to play for the majority of players. Those who are circle straffing bunny hoppers will be drawn to the eldar, Rainbow six type players to the Marines, all out carnage will play orks.

[doeden]

Actually take a look at say Jedi Knight or Jedi Academy. People use the sabers in that like nobodies business, but they equally don't completely dominate the guns.

You can block/push rockets and blaster fire, last I checked a Space-marine charging an Eldar with a chainsword can't block.

Edit: In reply to what Foe said, that is interesting. But look at this, if you make an FPS where your a slow moving soldier no one will want to play it. However I think your formula works. But WH40k is still fast paced.