Halo 2 for PC. System requirement: Windows VISTA [Archive]

the_sidewinder

9th Feb 06, 12:32 PM

Deciding to make the best-selling Halo 2 Xbox game a Vista-only title is likely driven by Microsoft's desire to get people upgrading to the new version of the Windows.

Yes'ms

With Vista, Microsoft has made big changes to the way it handles graphics. Unlike other versions of Windows, it will need an advanced video card to get the most out of it.
Nope, it just won't be so hot on crappy intel graphics :/

And finally

It is also likely to demand a lot of computer memory and a sizeable hard drive. While these requirements are likely to be met by dedicated players who want to get the most out of games, many less keen players could struggle to comply.

Yes, Vista will need more RAM, but RAM is cheap, and new computers more than comply with the minimum specs for Aero to run (new being upper midrange 3 years ago, lower midrange last year, craptops still won't be able to make the most out of it without an upgrade)

As for the hard drive, the average size of a new computer's HD is *sidewinder checks Dell's home and office site, looking at the cheapest entry level desktop ($519 Dimension 1100 btw) it has a 80 GB drive. Maybe not enough for you and I, but the average user probably won't need much more, and this is the lowest you can get in a new computer, hell, the upper end version of that Dimension 1100 comes with a 160 GB drive. Dell's Dimension 5150 is what dell classifies as Mainstream, and the only thing I see it missing is a dedicated GPU, which you would nee to play this sort of game anyways.

My point is, if you can play Halo, or Halo 2 on your hardware, Vista will run fine as well. As for the added cost of upgrading to vista, if it concerns you so much, but you JUST HAVE TO HAVE this game, get an XBox and play it on there, that'll certainly cost your less than a home version of vista *sarcasm* If you would also need new hardware, but are happy with your current PC Box, stick with it for a while longer, and get the console, since your computer would not likely be able to play the game anyways

severijn

9th Feb 06, 12:34 PM

Allow me to piss on microsoft for ruining another potentional game from bungie.

Water

9th Feb 06, 1:01 PM

While the idea is genius, I won't buy Vista. Ever. Besides, I hate the Halo series. I also don't want an OS where I need to buy a brand new monitor to watch HD content. Microsoft can go fuck itself with its DRM.

theBlind

9th Feb 06, 1:02 PM

Allow me to piss on microsoft for ruining another potentional game from bungie.
Allow me to give you a helping hand.

Stripe7

9th Feb 06, 1:04 PM

Is Vista a requirement for DX10. :p

Do not want all that DRM baggage that Vista has.

theBlind

9th Feb 06, 1:06 PM

Yes, DX10 will only come for Vista.
Worse, DX10 won't natively support earlier DX code. That means that "old" (read current) code will run through an emulator. Talk about a power drain.
So your current hardware won't run as fast on a given title as today.
And you need the new DRM compliant ****

Ammon Ra

9th Feb 06, 1:09 PM

/me joins in the pissing.

I have win2k[pro], and i seriously don't see the problem with it. It's a stable, straightforeward OS extreemly stable [no bsods under normal operating conditions] and it runs perfectly with 1 gb of ram. I have a larger registry than my sister's pc, also 1gb ram, but winxp and that takes ages to load.

regarding backward compatibility, considering the hog vista already is, another layer of conversions would make any attempt to play say, hl2 dx9 on vista on current middle-range pc's look more to slide-shows. Bad.

Considering that winxp home costs around in the hundreds of €'s, M$ can squeeze companies and people even more by raising vista prices. H2 pc version is just a selling pitch for vista. Period

/me pisses some more on M$.

TheDeadlyShoe

9th Feb 06, 1:09 PM

on the other hand, i suppose they need to make a break from old directx at some point.

also, since when did microsoft ruin any of bungie's games

Water

9th Feb 06, 1:10 PM

Vista is the reason Linux will have a surge of new users this year.

theBlind

9th Feb 06, 1:11 PM

Since buying Halo1

Ammon Ra

9th Feb 06, 1:13 PM

for pc.

Stripe7

9th Feb 06, 1:23 PM

Wish there was a Linx Port of WoW. That would be death knell to Vista. :p

Ammon Ra

9th Feb 06, 1:25 PM

And/or for eve and/or for guildwar. Yes. We must Lobby the develoers and publisher to make Linux ports!!!11

Dankest Mango

9th Feb 06, 1:26 PM

Just a little bit more information on the port:
http://bungie.net/News/TopStory.aspx?story=halo2vistaannounce&p=6136047

Water

9th Feb 06, 1:26 PM

Is WoW Direct3D or OpenGL? From what I understand, it is easier to emulate OpenGL games on Linux than Direct3D.

Paladin

9th Feb 06, 1:28 PM

Not bothering me. I'll be getting Vista fairly immediately. Unlike the jump from 2k to XP there are actually significant improvements to Vista as compared to XP.

Ammon Ra

9th Feb 06, 1:28 PM

bungie website is shite. Annoying bottom scrolling bar. They're not bright peoople are they? [replace people with wedesigners at will]

Q: Is the release of Halo 2 for Windows Vista just a way to force consumers to purchase the new operating system?
A: Absolutely not. Bungie Studios and Microsoft's steadfast commitment to quality determined that the Windows Vista platform would provide the best possible version of Halo 2 for the Windows PC. :rolleyes:

Caesar

9th Feb 06, 1:30 PM

I suppose the definition of 'ruin' these days is 'couple million sales and millions in revenue' right?

Halo for the pc wasn't nearly as horrible as everyone made it out to be. I bought it expecting a horrible experience but I found that there was nothing wrong with the game. In fact, I played it online for about a year.

Why should MS support old DX with Vista? XP and 2K didn't support DOS like 9xs did, but did that cause a huge problem? Not really. Keep in mind Vista's release date and the fact that it's in beta. I seem to remember everyone predicting doom before XP was released too. But lo and behold, XP is the best Windows to date.

Remember, MS is a company. Companies make money, not give people warm fuzzy feelings by listening to a vocal minority. Making Halo 2 Vista only is a smart move for them and that is what they are concerned with at the moment. Let's all wait until you've actually played Halo 2 on Vista before dooming it and whining about MS.

Water: Don't be a fool. No one except for geeks and nerds will switch to Linux when Windows and OSX work with hardware and are simple to use. People will consider Linux as a true alternative the day it comes preinstalled on computer and the day it becomes user-friendly. Until then, keep your OSS love fest to yourself.

Goddamn. Anytime anything MS related is posted on here I keep feeling like I'm reading Slashdot.

Water

9th Feb 06, 1:30 PM

The only thing Vista has over XP is Aero/Glass. It also has XP trumped in system requirements.

EDIT- There are many distro's that are user friendly. Take Xandros, for example.

Druidika

9th Feb 06, 1:32 PM

I also don't want an OS where I need to buy a brand new monitor to watch HD content. Microsoft can go fuck itself with its DRM.
You won't be able to watch HD content from Blu-Ray or HD-DVDs with Windows 2000 or XP, ever, because they don't support HDCP, even if you had a graphics card and monitor capable of it. Windows Vista however supports HDCP. Adding HDCP into Vista is not something that's bad for the end user - they either don't add it at all and prevent all users from watching HD content, or they at least add support for it for the users that have the necessary hardware. Also, HDCP has been developed by Intel, not Microsoft.

Considering that winxp home costs around in the hundreds of €'s, M$ can squeeze companies and people even more by raising vista prices.
XP Home can be bought for 74 euros (http://geizhals.at/deutschland/a16217.html) in Germany and 57 quid (http://www.pricerunner.co.uk/computing/misc-software/freetext?&a_search=xp+home&other_hits=27%3Axp+home_223%3Axp+home_294%3A_298%3Axp+home_x%3B%3B%3B&q=xp+home&ref=redirect) in Great Britain - that's not anywhere near the "hundreds of €'s".

Ammon Ra

9th Feb 06, 1:32 PM

i dont even see the question if h2 would have a linux port. They talk about macs but not linux. That just shows the hate M$ has for linux :p

@ above: try going into media world [european Retailer] in italy [rome] and look at the price ticket.

Water

9th Feb 06, 1:35 PM

I understand that Intel made HDCP, I am just pissing on Microsoft for implementing it into Vista. You still need to buy a monitor that supports HDCP, though.

Druidika

9th Feb 06, 1:38 PM

Retailers often have higher prices than online shops - especially in Rome, I guess. While I don't speak italian, I think you can buy XP Home for 84 euros (http://www.buycentral.it/qsh/xp+home.html?srt=pa&cid=17171&qry=xp+home) in Italy.

Water, even if Microsoft didn't implement HDCP you wouldn't be able to watch your HD content because the players don't output the high definition signal unless HDCP is present. Now you at least have the option of having the highest quality.

Ammon Ra

9th Feb 06, 1:47 PM

Keyword = retail, yes. you can't* prove me wrong on that :p

PC screens [crt/lcd] suport above 1024*768 resolutions wich is the upper-class HD class [iirc]. so why worry? afaik if you have the parts in your pc to convert HD signals, your screen can display them.

*not realisticly

theBlind

9th Feb 06, 1:50 PM

Why should MS support old DX with Vista? XP and 2K didn't support DOS like 9xs did, but did that cause a huge problem?
There was this whole thing with old DOS games for example.
Yes, I'm still pissed I need to go out of my way to get UFO to run on 2k. Not to mention UFO Apocaliypse which runs like a slideshow :(

BmB

9th Feb 06, 2:18 PM

WHY DO PEOPLE HATE HALO?

I cant understand it! Really, I cant.

Please explain this to me slowly and intelligebly.

AND IF YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT CONSIDERING MENTIONING HALF-LIFE 2 I'M GOING TO NUKE YOUR ASS! (verbally at least)

severijn

9th Feb 06, 2:19 PM

Maybe I should include "for me" next time I talk about ruining. But then again, I suppose most here never played anything of bungie pre-myth.

Anyways, this sounds like a moneycow.

TheDeadlyShoe

9th Feb 06, 2:20 PM

Yes, I'm still pissed I need to go out of my way to get UFO to run on 2k. Not to mention UFO Apocaliypse which runs like a slideshow

Does Dosbox work in 2k?

People hate halo because it's good, but not that good, and it's uber-popular.

Cash_Fish

9th Feb 06, 2:23 PM

I bought the first halo for PC. The game wasnt all that bad, as most people seem to dislike it. I liked the first halo, but the second halo is overhyped crap. Just meh. I am definantly not upgrading to vista or buying h2.

BmB

9th Feb 06, 2:26 PM

What do you mean overhyped? It wasnt overhyped, maybee, a few thousand fans, or more.

alot more.

got a little, um... excited.

but its not overhyped.

ÜberJumper

9th Feb 06, 2:37 PM

I'll be buying Vista almost as soon as it hits shelves.

Windows Vista > XP > 2K > 98 > 95 > 3.1.

Microsoft's operating systems have been getting consistently better. They've had more time to work on Vista than any previous OS (95, NT 4.0, 98, ME, 2K, XP all about 2-3 years apart. XP was out in 2001, Vista'll be out in 2006. 5 Years of development time for the OS.

Water

9th Feb 06, 2:38 PM

So DRM doesn't bother you Uber? Paying for the right to share/copy your music, etc. is just fine with you?

the_sidewinder

9th Feb 06, 2:42 PM

Water, that is complete bullshit. First off, artists need to be compensated, but that is for a different discussion. Second off, Vista WILL NOT keep you from sharing your music, or having MP3s on your computer or anything like that

I agree with Jumper, and with an almost entirely new codebase, combined with AP and the new driver model, I will be getting this when it hits shelves

Water

9th Feb 06, 2:47 PM

Sure, you will be able to share your music. Maybe a couple of times. After that, though, you will need to pay a fee to copy/share/etc again.

It's just record companies trying to make back money for sponsoring one-hit-wonders. Maybe if they had some sense and stopped sponsoring them, they wouldn't try to use DRM to gain back their money.

The same can be said about the movie industry, too. A bunch of money going towards crappy movies like, for example, Stealth. Why else have ticket prices gone up? I remember paying $4.00 for a matinee (sp) a few years ago. Now it's up to $5.25 where I am.

the_sidewinder

9th Feb 06, 2:51 PM

No water, I have no idea where you are getting this info, but it is false. Though this is skirting on unsure ground, the same P2P apps that are common today WILL work on Vista, and you WILL NOT be charged a fee to transfer those files (I however do not condone copyright infringement)

Druidika

9th Feb 06, 2:51 PM

Err Water, you'll be able to rip your CDs just like you could do previously, and your already ripped files won't contain any DRM after you install Vista either. If you bought your music online, the tracks will behave just like they did before, depending on the DRM the music store added to them.

primzahl13

9th Feb 06, 2:54 PM

ok, thats it i`m gonna buy a ps3 or a revolution or whatever, but finally, i hereby announce (speaking only for myself): Microsoft you spying cia-cooperating lousy miserable company founded by consumer-hating dirtbags GO FUCK YOURSELF

Water

9th Feb 06, 2:56 PM

No offense, but it seems Microsoft, Intel, and all these other companies supporting DRM are correct. Consumers are sheep that never fully inspect a product. Go ahead and enjoy the totalitarianism that is DRM. I will enjoy the DRM-free Linux.

Off topic, but Intel is going to be putting DRM measures in their processors soon. Although none of you will care, look out for "East Fork."

the_sidewinder

9th Feb 06, 3:05 PM

GG water, now you'll never be able to watch a HD or BD DVD on your computer, the reason that MS put that HDCP in Vista is so that you CAN watch those movies there. You have not been listening to what we have been saying, Vista will not restrict you any more than XP or 2000 or ME or 98 or 95 or 3.1 etc, in fact, you will have more freedom because of the HDCP inclusion. It's up to the distributer to decide how to implement a DRM schema, and if the OS does not support it, well then your out of luck.

The DRM can also be beneficial to you. If you haven't noticed, there have been thumbdrives and iPods with sensitive information on them that have gone missing. A software DRM plus the hardware one, such as the one going into the Intel chipsets, can help keep that information out of prying eyes, so that a lost iPod won't cost you your job.

Slashco

9th Feb 06, 3:07 PM

While I'm not as paranoid as some, I do agree this DRM business can be the start of a slippery slope. What comes next, pay each time you want to hear a song or see a movie? How long until computers come with a mandatory "feature" that searches through your files for illegal downloads and contacts the police? Is that what we really want the future to be like?

Water

9th Feb 06, 3:11 PM

Sure I will be able to. HDCP is flawed and will be broken through. I am sure someone like DVD Jon will also help me out, too.

the_sidewinder

9th Feb 06, 3:16 PM

Despite the fact that such an evasion is illegal.

Water

9th Feb 06, 3:21 PM

Then why am I not in the bighouse for copying my DVDs to my media server? We get this same warning all the time. Even when DVD came out people said stuff like, "If you break the encryption on the DVD, it's illegal." I have yet to see anyone go to jail for breaking the encryption and copying the movie. It's only illegal if you sell the copied DVD.

It's only scare tactics. DVD Jon will break through HD-DVD and BDD and not get punished since his country isn't as insane as the USA when it comes to DRM and shit.

Then I will laugh my ass off as I watch HD movies on a non-HDCP compliant monitor/TV.

the_sidewinder

9th Feb 06, 3:25 PM

The thought that it is only illegal if you sell the copied DVD is ignorant. I would love to introduce you to this little law of yours called the DMCA, shake hands and get aquainted. It's an ugly law that says that such action are illegal, but that does not mean you will go to jail, try massive fines instead, and if you haven't noticed, there are lots of those going around.

Dankest Mango

9th Feb 06, 3:27 PM

Water, your walking close to the edge here:

4. No warez. At All. Mentioning it at all gets you fired out of the nearest ion cannon, never to return. Its evil. We hate that here. ( That goes for pr0n too ).

While I'm not for DRM, we don't even know it's extent or how far it will go with Vista.
I also will pick up a new copy of Vista once it hits store shelves, mostly just to look at all the pretty new buttons ect.

Water

9th Feb 06, 3:34 PM

Show me then. I know so many people that copy the DVDs they paid for and put them on their media servers and go on their merry way. They don't go off selling their copied movies, and nor do I.

I bought my DVDs, so I can do whatever the fuck I want with them. Having "big brother" come along and tell me that I can't do something with a product I paid for is bullshit, sir. "Oh you want to rip your CD? Well you have to pay a fee to do that." Fuck that. As I said before, this is just a way for Hollywood and the record companies to make back the money they lost while funding shitty projects/bands.

Tiresias

9th Feb 06, 3:36 PM

Personally if you'd asked me a year back I might have been annoyed at Microsoft, but i am impressed with the 360, and since this is merely adding on not restricting it seems reasonable.

Water

9th Feb 06, 3:38 PM

Curious, what does the Xbox 360 have to do with Vista? The Xbox 360 runs a modified Windows Media Center.

the_sidewinder

9th Feb 06, 3:38 PM

Show me then. I know so many people that copy the DVDs they paid for and put them on their media servers and go on their merry way.

Because there aren't that many? No you can't do whatever the fuck you want with them. You do not own the rights to do so, you own a lisense that lets you view it. You can do anything that constitutes fair use

ÜberJumper

9th Feb 06, 3:42 PM

Water:

The Xbox 360 connects to PCs running Windows Media Center, it's not running Windows XP Media Center Edition.

Tiresias

9th Feb 06, 3:42 PM

Water I'm commenting that microsoft have been in my good books recently

Caesar

9th Feb 06, 3:45 PM

I'm pretty sure that you're confusing sharing your ripped DVDs with others and ripping your DVD for personal use. Sharing is illegal whilst any private use of your product is ok.

And, Linux freedom isn't all that you think it is. You've seen gplv3 right?

Edit: I agree with Tir, MS has been good lately. I am excited to see what Vista brings and I am happy with their new projects and initiatives.

Water

9th Feb 06, 3:47 PM

"Big brother" can't and won't stop people from breaking encryptions and copying movies. Ever.

When HD-DVD and BRD come along, people like DVD Jon will break the encryption and strip the HDCP. People like me will then be able to copy the movies the paid for onto their media servers. People like me won't have to spend money to buy a HDCP compliant TV/monitor.

It can't and won't be stopped. What is sad is that companies spend millions upon millions to encrypt music and movies, and it gets broken so quickly.

EDIT: Uber: I know it connects to any WMC computer, but I thought the OS (mainly the dashboard) was a modified version of WMC?

Druidika

9th Feb 06, 3:50 PM

Both HD DVD and Blu Ray support a technology called Mandatory Managed Copy, which allows consumers to copy the contents of a disc on a harddrive and stream the videos around the local network, legally..

Ammon Ra

9th Feb 06, 3:51 PM

As for people automatically saying that vista > than winxp/2k, i seriously question your logic without having tried it. The onlything that it could possibly do better is more emphasis on the flashy, aestetics of the OS. Fluff/eyecandy. I'm perfectly happy with win2k pro, but considering the needs of the average joe who doesn't have any patience or who's rationally ignorant of the whole computer aspect, yes, vista could be better. Not to mention vista will increase the cost of a pc. More ram, more powerfull cpu, more HDD = More $$$ for a pc. unless ofcourse dell gets a nice big fat subsidy from M$ to sell their new blinky, shiny OS.

Thank god i live nowhere near america.

RE:IP rights: What's wrong with the itunes style of paying a fee for a song and downloading it via Internet, and being able to copy/move the song onto and from any device to any other? IT works, the artists get their paycheck, and you theoretically avoid the entire distributer part of the network...Oh that's right. The same technology can be applied to movies. Most movies make most of their money with dvd sales, and with the companies playing victim [which they sort of are], trying to slow down the proccess instead of embracing it. Think of a program called "I-movies" [ :bleh: ] where People can log on and buy movies online, and can then download high quality Divx/other format movies onto their computers.

Scribble

9th Feb 06, 3:53 PM

Could I remind people of the Relic News policy (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=5710) on discussing theft of intellectual property on these boards. (see rule 4)

I understand there are places on the internet to discuss such things, this is not one of them.

General Blaze

9th Feb 06, 3:56 PM

I don't mind Windows Vista, but to port Halo 2 on Windows Vista? O.o This is just like the first game all over again. Unproperly optimised for the PC.

ÜberJumper

9th Feb 06, 3:56 PM

Just a note, Windows Vista will tie into Xbox 360 in the same manner that XP Media Center edition does now.

I look forward to being able to hook my Xbox360 up to my Vista powered PC to share content between it and my big screen TV.

Blaze:

Note that Microsoft/Bungie appears to be doing the port themselves, rather than farming it out to a third party as the Halo 1 port was. I suspect that those with direct access and Microsoft's backing for their product have a higher likelyhood of a successful port than otherwise.

Ammon Ra

9th Feb 06, 3:58 PM

So xbox 360 became a pc acessorie(sp?) all of a sudden? :p :jest:

Druidika

9th Feb 06, 4:01 PM

I seriously doubt that anyone bought an XBox 360 only to stream media from a PC to a TV. Media Center Extenders do the same and are much cheaper :)

Tiresias

9th Feb 06, 4:01 PM

Equally with Microsoft's move with the x-box360 to move PCs and X-boxes closer together I think there may be good gaming advantages to Vista. Windows Live has yet to be seen proper

the_sidewinder

9th Feb 06, 4:02 PM

The onlything that it could possibly do better is more emphasis on the flashy, aestetics of the OS. Fluff/eyecandy. I'm perfectly happy with win2k pro,

You have apparently not seen what MS is doing under the hood. Almost all the code has been replaced, the driver model changed, the OS made inherently more secure etc etc. It is hardly WinXP with a fancy new skin

Langy

9th Feb 06, 4:02 PM

As far as I can tell, nobody is advocating being able to steal IP. Water is saying he would upload the HD or BR disc to his personal media server for his home in order to play the movie on his computer, TV, whatever, without the HDCP forcing him to buy new hardware and use Vista. I think. If he's saying he'd copy the disk onto his server to distribute to his friends, then that's something entirely different.

Oh, and Water, it's legal to make backup copies of movies, music, DVDs, whatever, as far as I know. As far as I know, the DMCA doesn't say anything against making backup copies. If it does, then I'll be upset:(

Someguy

9th Feb 06, 4:03 PM

I seriously doubt that anyone bought an XBox 360 only to stream media from a PC to a TV. Media Center Extenders do the same and are much cheaper :)

Yah but an xbox360 plays games too. If anything it's a nice side feature.

Reignfire

9th Feb 06, 4:04 PM

ÜberJumper

9th Feb 06, 4:07 PM

Reign:

If they did, that still means they gained experience working on it, and are going to be using that experience in making Vista. Instead of a one generational jump, it's a two generational jump.

the_sidewinder

9th Feb 06, 4:28 PM

Langy, IIRC, the DMCA forbids bypassing copy controls. You probably are in the clear if it is for personal use (Fair Use Act) but distributing it to your friends is not fair use.

Andkat

9th Feb 06, 4:36 PM

A quick query on Windows VISTA: Does it have the OS-switching capacity of XP (switch the Windows OS a certain game or programs runs on your computer).

theBlind

9th Feb 06, 4:42 PM

If they did, that still means they gained experience working on it
Since the typical MS programmer is employed directly from college and only works for the company for 3-4 years before usually succumbing to burnout syndrome, there's not that much experience gained.
The fact that MS' programmers are so inexperienced is one if not the major reason why their products are of the bad quality they are.
Now, I don't know about your experience, but I have programmed for and with the Windows NT (specifically 2k and XP) API and their interfaces, programming routines and procedures _suck_.

@sidewinder: It depends on the company to *allow* you to take your right to make a personal backup. Yes, that means its the companys decision, not yours.
The track record they have when it comes to this specific regulation is not to promising. Also, both movie and music industry are lobbying vehemently to have this allowance removed.
(Which also means that if it's removed in the US, we europeans won't have much choice but to accept a reduction in our rights as well. At least for the few months it's going to take the EU pariament to scrap our right for backup copies.)

Worf

9th Feb 06, 4:44 PM

Druid:
Last thing I read is that the DRM of Vista for Blue-Ray generates a key from your current hardware and binds it to the copy. That means that you'll indeed be able to stream/view it on other PC's but at a vastly reduced quality, only the original pc where the copy was made will be able to view the movie at full res&sound (source: german pcpro! magazine, article on Visat DRM, some time around december last year).

Concerning old media: nothing will happen to them. If they don't have DRM Vista won't implement it and you'll be able to view all your old media just as you do now (source: same article as above).

A friend of mine ripped all his cds and produced .wmv files using the WMP. As he's pretty unfamiliar with computers he forgot to uncheck the little box in the options (which you don't have to open if you want to rip cds) that implements DRM. So his files became "protected". He didn't know nor notice that while he had is old Windows install. Once a worm killed his Windows installation and I reinstalled it he tried to play one of his old files which failed. He would have had to export the key from his old installation and import it into the new system. He deleted 6 GB of files and was happy to restart the grabbing.
Bottom line: Microsoft needs to look for what people want and need and mustn't overprotect them.

I'm no Microsoft fan. Not at all. But face the facts folks: MS is factually a monopolist that dictates the market. Once Vista is out, all other Windows copies will exit the shelves. Once they're sold out you'll have a very hard time to get new copies of WinXP. It's been the same since win95. If you want to play games you need Vista, period. Microsoft will always protect their stuff, will always try and hinder other companies to make programs that are better than their own and offer more functions (Does anyone know the Novell story?). Can you do something about it? No. Because everybody who's no geek will never notice nor care. And geeks use Linux anyway.

Stripe7

9th Feb 06, 4:54 PM

I ended up with a Dell 3007WFP, which is HDCP compliant. I believe both my ASUS 7800 GTX 512's are listed as HDCP ready. I will not upgrade to Vista if it requires changing my hardware. Earlier I was going to go with an Apple 30" which was not HDCP compliant. Now that I have ended up with hardware that supports HDCP, I am tempted to go to Vista. Note that I only switched to XP a month ago, when I got my new computer.

I would like to know what M$ does with upscalers. Old media can be upscaled to higher res and wonder if M$ bowed to the MPAA and disabled upscaling (line doubling). The MPAA stops DVD manufacturers from adding hardware that upscales standard DVD's to 1080p.

Druidika

9th Feb 06, 5:07 PM

Worf, what you said about the DRM may be true, but I don't think that it was Microsoft's decision to add such elaborate DRM measures and to reduce the quality of the playback. The movie industry actually didn't want PCs to be able to playback BRD or HDDVD movies at all, because they were afraid of the potential piracy. Microsoft only had the choice of not adding the DRM measures the movie industry demanded at all, which would've prevented everyone from watching these movies, or submitting to the movie industry and add the DRM measures they wanted.

Paladin

9th Feb 06, 5:25 PM

For tablet PC users like myself Vista has many very significant improvements.

XP was no real improvement over 2k (It was mostly needless bloat) but Vista will be a fairly noticable improvement to XP.

ÜberJumper

9th Feb 06, 7:02 PM

theblind:

Since the typical MS programmer is employed directly from college and only works for the company for 3-4 years before usually succumbing to burnout syndrome, there's not that much experience gained.
The fact that MS' programmers are so inexperienced is one if not the major reason why their products are of the bad quality they are.
Now, I don't know about your experience, but I have programmed for and with the Windows NT (specifically 2k and XP) API and their interfaces, programming routines and procedures _suck_.

How do you explain the obvious improvement in product quality over the years? How do you explain that Windows had LESS security issues in the last year vs Linux (certainly MS's vulerabilities have more impact as they have a bigger install base)?

The individual programmers may burn out and that individual knowledge is not retained. That's not the issue though. The company, as a whole, retains that knowledge and passes it around.

If someone burning out (dying, leaving a company, being injured etc) meant that knowledge would be lost forever, then we'd still be hunting and gathering.

hybris

9th Feb 06, 7:16 PM

Microsoft is getting rather desperate to force users to move to Vista, aren't they?

I bet they've allready realized what the people will think about their "1984"-styled operating system.

BeserkWraithlor

9th Feb 06, 7:24 PM

About time microsoft made Halo 2 for the PC...................TOO LATE! Everybody already has an XBOX and the SBOX360 is already out. I hope halo 3 comes out a few months later or the same time as 360 version.

MetalDragoon83

9th Feb 06, 8:08 PM

Doesn't Microsoft own Bungie anyways?

I'm a geek and I still use good old Winders, ever since 3.1; anybody else remember that BOB system that windows had for a while. Man was that ever a flop.

Anyways, having Vista a requirement for Halo2 is a little.... how should I put this... screwed up, but hey it is ultimtally their product and they will do what ever they want with it.

Also Windows has been improving over the years, it has become more stable, more secure, and a lot easier to use. Sometimes I forget what that evil Blue screen of Death looks like then the memories cause me to cry.

And what is with all this bad mouthing Halo anyway, its a good game, solid and fun to play. Yes a bit over hyped but hey, what major titles aren't, Fable anyone.

Just as a side note: anyone remember the game that Halo is based off of, good old Marathon, such a great game. Only played Durandel, the second one, as the first one was a Mac only.

*sniff*Ah, memories *sniff*

Beelzebuddy

9th Feb 06, 8:19 PM

the reason that MS put that HDCP in Vista is so that you CAN watch those movies there. You have not been listening to what we have been saying, Vista will not restrict you any more than XP or 2000 or ME or 98 or 95 or 3.1 etc, in fact, you will have more freedom because of the HDCP inclusion.I don't mind bullying and if-you-complain-you-must-be-a-pirate logic, but please don't lie. (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/H/HDCP.html)

If you bought your music online, the tracks will behave just like they did before, depending on the DRM the music store added to them.The difference being the DRM can now be as restrictive as companies damn well please. Your argument is basically saying "if MS forces you to give your wallet to companies, you can't blame them if the companies take the money from it."

No, incidentally, I will not be buying Vista. I will continue to buy movies, even in HD form, and I will crack the DRM via the guaranteed 0-hour exploits as is my constidamntutional right, and anyone who'd like to tell me otherwise can go to hell.

Langy

9th Feb 06, 8:50 PM

Beelzebuddy: How is that lying? Without the HDCP included, you wouldn't be able to watch BR or HD disks, right? I'm guessing this would be due to a hardware issue - i.e. they won't be making drivers for HD or BR drives for Windows XP and under because they don't support HDCP and the HD/BR people wouldn't liscense the HD/BR tech to companies that don't support HDCP. Or something like that, I'm not entirely sure on how it all works.

Anyways, the argument is that if MS didn't add in HDCP support, you wouldn't be able to watch HDCP-enabled movies on your PC without illegally cracking the HDCP protocol, period. It's not like MS is adding in something that will stop your computer from making copies of a DVD with some other software or anything. It's just allowing Vista to run a specific type of protection.

RZetlin

9th Feb 06, 9:30 PM

It's nothing more than a marketing tactic to get gamers buying the Vista OS.

I think Microsoft knows Vista will bomb when it is released so they need some sort of incentive to buy Vista.

Given the lackluster reviews of the first Halo PC game, I don't see gamers scrambling to pick up Vista.

Beelzebuddy

9th Feb 06, 9:47 PM

How is that lying? Without the HDCP included, you wouldn't be able to watch BR or HD disks, right?That's double plus good logic!

Stripe7

9th Feb 06, 10:23 PM

Without the HDCP, it is not that nothing is displayed M$ drops the resolution of the image displayed, ie delibrately fuzzes the image.

the_sidewinder

9th Feb 06, 10:29 PM

I think Microsoft knows Vista will bomb when it is released so they need some sort of incentive to buy Vista.

Many average users feel that WinXP is good enough, MS doesn't want them to stay on XP, thus is creating incentives. On the other hand, many APIs are being backported to help with compatibility and transitions. There are, of course other reasons to upgrade, but the sad reality is that people don't know that there are problems in those areas (like security), even though they hear about them every day. The average consumer won't upgrade until they buy a new computer, or have enough incentive to want to upgrade.

Without the HDCP, it is not that nothing is displayed M$ drops the resolution of the image displayed, ie delibrately fuzzes the image.

No, MS does not drop the res, the Spec of HDCP REQUIRES it to be DVD quality if not all requirements are met. This is not Microsofts fault, don't blame them for it.

I don't mind bullying and if-you-complain-you-must-be-a-pirate logic, but please don't lie.

Apolly, think for a second, if the media cannot be encrypted/decripted because of the hardware/software YOU CANNOT WATCH IT

I feel like I am omnislasing :/

The difference being the DRM can now be as restrictive as companies damn well please. Your argument is basically saying "if MS forces you to give your wallet to companies, you can't blame them if the companies take the money from it."

The tools are already in place for taht DRM, NOTHING is new, hell, the DRM schema was first used commonly by Apple, and does exist on WinXP and 2000, and all other OSes that can play such DRMed files. I am not a fan of DRM, but Vista does not limit you more than you already are.

Question

9th Feb 06, 10:33 PM

Im confused.Halo 2 hasnt been ported to the PC YET?

Nurizeko

9th Feb 06, 11:28 PM

Waiting this long fpr Halo 2 and stuff, and now they expect me to buy a new OS for opne game?.

I'll think I'll pass.

Not that its a crime to release new OS, just That i wouldnt buy a new OS and hardware for one game i dont even want and which is pretty damn late for a PC port.

Some games get released alongside their console versions, why does microsoft think a PC gamer is going to waste money on an Xbox, just to play a game?, i dunno, maybe it works, ive never wanted a console (maybe a PS2 once..) and i dont plan on wanting a console, and i wont buhy a console just for a game.

Homdax

10th Feb 06, 12:37 AM

I need a very good reason, or an awful amount of useless money, to buy a console to play a game. Any game.
As for DOS compatibility, there are ways around that, like "DosBox". The XP feature to allow for games to run in compatibility mode does not work well. I have tried several times to get this little Disney Arcade game "Lionking" to work and I have not succeeded yet.
A similar feature in Vista would of course be welcome, but I see it failing for many games.
Überjumper: (or anyone) will games like we know them today run at all in Vista?
As in Relic games...?

Mac_Bug

10th Feb 06, 12:48 AM

Since the typical MS programmer is employed directly from college and only works for the company for 3-4 years before usually succumbing to burnout syndrome, there's not that much experience gained.

These days Microsoft is also called Microsoft India. Internship positions at Microsoft is currently the most sought after here, if nothing else, because of the pay is double anything you will ever get from anyone in Canada. Then again, I didn't get hired, so go ahead and rag them as much as you want :)

The fact that MS' programmers are so inexperienced is one if not the major reason why their products are of the bad quality they are.
Now, I don't know about your experience, but I have programmed for and with the Windows NT (specifically 2k and XP) API and their interfaces, programming routines and procedures _suck_.

I'm curious as to what specific APIs you are referring to and why they suck.

the_sidewinder

10th Feb 06, 12:49 AM

Homy, I believe older DX games and OGL games are handled through an abstraction layer, so yes, they *should* work

JargonFilter

10th Feb 06, 1:08 AM

wtf is the fuss about. who cares?

besides you're all eventually getting vista anyway. esp if you want to continue gaming, its all going to be dx 10 :P

Homdax

10th Feb 06, 1:17 AM

Megamultibilion world wide game publisher, one month before Vista launch:
"- We are sorry to inform You that most games released by us the latter 4 years will be incompatible with windows vista -"
"- Please rest assured we will sue MS , and prolly loose, to protect your interest -"
"- As per this current issue all our 3489 support sites have been shut down due to overload -"
"- Our senior Compatiblility-With-Windows key warrant executive officer has been sacked -"
"- We deeply sympathize with the bankrupcy of 239 game producers, along with the collective suicide of 58 lead programmers and 4072 staff, being programmers, storywriters, 3d designers, testers and QA employees -"

;)

TheDeadlyShoe

10th Feb 06, 1:27 AM

How long until computers come with a mandatory "feature" that searches through your files for illegal downloads and contacts the police? Is that what we really want the future to be like?

I will just mention, if you think this is bad, you should see what the telecom companies want for the internet... charging for traffic that isn't theirs..ugh.

Druidika

10th Feb 06, 1:49 AM

The difference being the DRM can now be as restrictive as companies damn well please. Your argument is basically saying "if MS forces you to give your wallet to companies, you can't blame them if the companies take the money from it."
If you don't like the DRM conditions, don't buy your music online. I for one like services like Napster that are only possible because of the new DRM measures. Microsoft won't magically change the DRM conditions with Vista and charge you money, it's all about the music stores. Don't like their conditions, don't buy their music.

theBlind

10th Feb 06, 2:54 AM

How do you explain the obvious improvement in product quality over the years?
Well, product improvement is just that. Someone sits down and improves the already given product. TO do that, s/he has to know where a error occurs (so they need the error dump created by windows).
With that info, they can go and hunt for that specific function or procedure. The error itself is usually rather oblivous once you know one is there (read: you know under what conditions the code will break, so you can easily follow it mentally to see when and why it does)
All of that does not require a better programmer, but basically just try and error.
Now don't get me wrong, that is of course not the _only_ way MS improves it's products. Not even they are that bad :p . Code reviews are, I'm sure, also done. But the original code was still written by someone inexperienced, often tired and under time-pressure. Those factors simply lead to errors. They lead to errors from experts, they surely lead to errors from lerners.
Compare it to driving school. Once you finished driving school, you can drive a car, but you're *far* from being a secure driver.
Yet still, you can easily say that someone who hit that tree crashed - after the fact.
Personally, I'm not what I'd call an experienced programmer, either, but I can still see when that car hit that tree.

As to the number of security holes in Windows vs Linux, I'd like to see the source, especially considering the severety of the problems and the turnaround time to fix them.
There are bugs in MS products (yes, the widespread ones) that have not been fixed in months, even years.
Besides, I'm not arguming Linux vs Windows. I'm saying that Windows has issues for a reason - and those reasons have not changed for Vista.

The company, as a whole, retains that knowledge and passes it around.
[...]
we'd still be hunting and gathering.
See above.
Also, if the earliest of knowlegde would not have been passed on from mother to daughter and from father to son and then ingrained by them actualy using that knowledge we _would_ still be hunting and gathering.

Example for sucky procedures:
For a Named Pipe Client (MSDN (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/ipc/base/named_pipe_client.asp)), you have to create a Named Pipe structure from a NP server. You can then access the Pipe from the client. To read from the Pipe, you use the following ReadFile function:

ReadFile(
hPipe, // pipe handle
chBuf, // buffer to receive reply
BUFSIZE*sizeof(TCHAR), // size of buffer
&cbRead, // number of bytes read
NULL); // not overlapped
That function does not return the bytes read from the pipe (or, better a structure that includes them as well as error messages), instead, you have to assign a pointer into your own memory space to receive the contents of the pipe.
That means that another programm (the ReadFile function) will write into your own memoryspace.
Whatever it wants.
You can't secure against that, since your programm is not actively part of that process - that is the very definition of buffer overflow. And this practice is *everywhere* They used it virtually in every function I saw.

Alex Drake

10th Feb 06, 5:15 AM

Let me get this straight, this thread is about people complaining that;

1) They'll eventually own a machine running Vista in 5-years (and are mad that, of all things, UPGRADING their PC costs $-$-$... heavens, what has the world come to).
2) People who use Linux anyway, and therefore feel basking in the warming feeling of "intellgience" for running an open-source OS.
3) People who dislike Halo/or and are upset that MS either didn't hire them or simply cannot program worth a damn and therefore critical of things they don't unserstand.

and finally....

4) People who will likely "sekritly" pirate Vista anyway.

Edited With Respect to Homeboy, as he may be the only poster whose legitimately stayed on-topic... or atleast satisfied the following condition.

So far I haven't seen anyone post and say that they planned on buying Halo2 PC and are now bummed that they'll need an OS upgrade to play it. Why? Because now instead of paying $150-$450 for an Xbox/360 they have to pay... $250 for Vista and the game? If you didn't want to play the console version (or just don't like consoles in general) why would you be upset that the game you already didn't want to play has a requirement that means you now cannot play it for PC (because of course you were going to buy the PC version and not bootleg it.... foolish unwashed console-playing hordes)?

As for DRM; Why should anyone care that the same restrictions available to online music retailers today are going to be on the OS of tomorrow? Can anyone offer one shred of solid business sense that says that this is a poor investment for MS? If DRM flops, the OS won't affect your music playing at all. If tis supported by retailers, you're in the same boat as you'd be if you used XP/2000. If you use Linux and feel shafted, remember, you likely didn't pay anything for your kernel anyway (old addage, you get what you pay for). And if you did buy it, I find it a bit odd that you'd complain about the shortcomings of an OS you already payed to ignore. if anything, you should be happy that this might drive more users to Linux.

@Conspiracy Theorists; If the RIAA and its lackeys wanted to scan your hard-drives, I'm fairly certain that existing spyware technology is more than up to the task. Vista won't be speeding up the process by any appreciable amount, so if you think the 250Gigs of animated loli-porn you might have lying around on your backup HD might get 'yah in hot water with the feds, don't worry, they can already find it if they want to.

Honestly, if you want to paly Halo2, go buy an XBOX and play it how it was meant to be played. And hey, if you buy one off ebay with a used copy of the game MS won't see a dime of your cash, so yuo can stick it to the proverbial "man" and still get to enjoy the game.

But who am I kidding, us console gamers are all illiterate assholes who spend our off hours snorting paint-chips and talking L337 smack-talk via LIVE.... or maybe that's just the vocal majority of ALL online gamers console or otherwise....

Back to playing Marvel vs Capcom 2....

Homdax

10th Feb 06, 7:34 AM

:thumb:

ÜberJumper

10th Feb 06, 8:35 AM

theBlind:

Let me get this straight. First you indicate that Microsoft doesn't learn anything and as a result improve their as they're programming, now you're indicating they obviously do learn things and improve their product?

I'm glad we both agree that Microsoft has been improving their products.

Also... here's the source for Linux vs Windows Security issues (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/01/05/windows_linux_unix_security_vulnerabilities/) (which is actually an article about CERT's reporting).

Question

10th Feb 06, 9:11 AM

What was wrong with the halo 1 port?The graphics look decent and it runs smoothly, and thats saying much considering this is a toshiba tecraS1 laptop..........

TheDeadlyShoe

10th Feb 06, 9:42 AM

hmm... I don't recall having any problems with that.

Beelzebuddy

10th Feb 06, 9:59 AM

If you don't like the DRM conditions, don't buy your music online. I for one like services like Napster that are only possible because of the new DRM measures. Microsoft won't magically change the DRM conditions with Vista and charge you money, it's all about the music stores. Don't like their conditions, don't buy their music.Read the next paragraph of my post. I don't care about DRM; it's a waste of effort that only screws over non-technical but legitimate customers, as the ones who care will crack the DRM and the real pirates the scheme claims to hinder will never see it. That's the problem with the DRM "solution" to copyright infringement: all it takes is a single person intelligent enough to break the system and it's as if the DRM were never there.

My issue was with the statement that MS was blameless in forming such an asinine scheme, as if it would have been developed without their support from day one.

Uber:
Those CERT numbers are bogus, and here's an article explaining why. (http://trends.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/01/05/1627242) Juicy bits:

1) The presented numbers are meaningless -
One figure represents the vulnerabilities found in Windows operating systems: XP, NT, 98, and so on. The other represents a total figure not just for Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, the BSDs, and Linux, but for a hundred different versions of Linux. The sum of all the unique vulnerabilities from all the Linux distros does not equate to the sum of vulnerabilities in any single Linux distro, and one could say the same about the various versions of Windows.
2) Severity is not represented -
You can easily spot the most vulnerable operating system in wide use today by taking a look at the Technical Cyber Security Alerts (http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/techalerts/) issued by US-CERT last year. Here's the bottom line:

* 22 Technical Cyber Security Alerts were issued in 2005
* 11 of those alerts were for Windows platforms
* 3 were for Oracle products
* 2 were for Cisco products
* 1 was for Mac OS X
* None were for Linux

hiddensmoke

10th Feb 06, 10:52 AM

Derailing the discussion like i normally do. Heres a picture of what supposedly its going to look like on the PC
http://img438.imageshack.us/img438/9053/ihalo2icomingtowindowsvista200.jpg
Looks pretty cruddy.

HunterX

10th Feb 06, 10:53 AM

Jumper, that article fails to mention one thing. While the number of security problems are greater under Linux/Unix (I'm not denying that) the OSS community, the major 'Nix vendors, and companies deploying Linux/Unix machines through their internal programming department have actively attempted to fix those problems and release updates far more regularly than MS does. Also consider that on that list of vulnerabilities (Found Here (http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/bulletins/SB2005.html#UnixLinux) ) there is a good chunk that are vendor specific (Apple, Free BSD, HP-UX, IBM AIX, and there are quite a few GNU vulnerabilities) who are actively attempting to fix those problems (the GNU problems aren't vendor specific, but there is one group actively attempting to fix them). Also take a quick look through those vulnerabilities and you'll see that a good number are file permissions based, the remedy for those problems can be seen clearly in the description of the problem it self.

The file permissions system that Linux/Unix uses makes it inherently a little more secure than Windows because if you don't have the user access to do something, you can't do it. The same goes for malicious software, and a good majority of it needs access to higher system functions, and access to system wide folders that only a sys admin has write access to. And if a sys admin is accessing sites that could pose a threat to network security while on the job, I'd be very worried. The only way to execute code on a system where you are not allowed to execute that code requires actively hacking the system for access, the same goes for running code through any daemon that gets a user name (i.e. apache, samba, an ftp server). And if the sys admin can't tell/doesn't have security measures up to catch hacking of this sort, I would be very worried also.

On the user end of things Linux is no more or less secure than Windows, I agree with that. Get someone to launch an app in a Linux/Unix user account and directory and you can get the same information that you could from a Windows user. But again, while the same vulnerability exists Linux users (particularly desktop users of Linux) are (at least in my experience) a bit smarter about what apps they run.

Also a lot of those vulnerabilities happen to be server related. While these pose a threat to a server environment, on a desktop system, these problems are moot. You don't install what components you don't need. Windows users don't have this option. There are at least a dozen things installed on Windows machines that people never use that pose security threats.

Worf

10th Feb 06, 10:59 AM

@Alex Drake:
Since I don't find my post to fit under your first 3 points I'll assume you'd put me under #4 which I find at least insulting. Calling other people pirates surely helps your arguement.

@Druid:
I wasn't implying it was MS' fault to implement it that way, all HD-TV ready products will work that way concerning copy protection because it is the new standard the industry agreed on. If I'd want to blame somebody, I'd have to blame the whole consortium.

They're trying to protect their IP which is their right. However they're effectively annulling people's abbrieved right to make private copies and I don't have to like that. Europe however is on it's way to remove that right from the national laws so there will be no further complaining over here in the not so distant future.

And I have to agree with ÜberJumper, MS has made a lot of progress over the last years, Vista will be another step in the right direction, it will further improve stability by removing unnecessary stuff from the kernel, the graphics driver for example. I just hope the comparingly high system requirements won't mean that it'll take processor and graphic card power away from other applications but it's way too early to moan about that since noone can tell yet. They still have space left to improve though.

Everybody mentioning Windows' security problems shouldn't forget that they're a formidable target. Almost every computer uses Windows so the number of potential targets is way higher than for Linux. There are Linux worms too but since most people running linux know how to protect themselves. If that were the case for the millions of dumb Windows users there wouldn't be such an uproar every time a new virus strikes.

My next PC will certainly have Vista like this one has XP because I need to be familiar with it or I couldn't do my job. You can't find and eliminate errors if you don't know what you're working on. And since hardly any game is supporting Linux there's no need to install that except maybe for internet security.

I didn't buy Halo 1 because when it came for pc the astonishing graphics I was looking forward to were already beaten by other games. Same might be true for Halo 2. I will however not upgrade my OS for the sole reason to be able to play Halo 2. The intend of having Vista as a requirement is surely to improve sales for Vista. But it certainly is not the only reason, for MS it's just convenient. As I said earlier, Vista will eventually become a requirement for games so why care? Everybody was bitching about Ultima IX having insanely high system requirements. That's life, that's what's boosting technology development and the computer industry's sales. An office computer doesn't have to be state of the art, a game computer does. We wouldn't have any progress here if it weren't for games with system requirements ahead of the currently available technology.

Ammon Ra

10th Feb 06, 11:27 AM

Vista is not an improved versio of xp. it's built up from more/less scratch, using the knowlege gained before. As aprogrammer i know said, vista will reduce the number of functions from a few million [xp] down to a few tens of thousand . Not good for compatability, wich already plagues win 2k/xp. [i]don't quote me.

What really disgusts me is companies enforcing what they want consumers to want instead of listening to consumers.

This might be food for a new thread, but the music industry has somewhat adapted to the internet, but the movie industry seems completly ignorant and oblivious to the existance of internet, adding new standards that will make life more difficult for the average user, but will not hinder the real pirates out there.

Sgt Bob

10th Feb 06, 11:51 AM

I'll be getting Vista as: Vista>XP
and as for Halo2: HL2>Halo2:)
Vista really should be worth the money, and as I want to game, i'll get.

ÜberJumper

10th Feb 06, 12:15 PM

Beelzebuddy:

I'd like to see someone boil those numbers down even more to purely OS related issues rather than issues with programs that can be installed on an OS. Certainly interesting when you look at something closer to raw data than someone's summary...

Caesar

10th Feb 06, 1:09 PM

I will be buying Vista. I will be buying Halo 2 PC. I do not like playing Halo 2 on Xbox. I enjoyed Halo 2 x100 more than I did Half-Life 2. Half-life 2 was just not a fun and convincing game environment. So, for me, I will not have any problems with Vista and Halo 2.

What was the 'killer app' for Xbox when it first came out? Halo. It was there to show what the Xbox was capable of. What does Vista have now? Halo 2. It's a demonstration as much as it is an incentive.

FatalTheRabbit

10th Feb 06, 1:22 PM

I would think Halo 2 would play even more terrible on the PC as without the paddle it will just become a sniper fest. A few flicks of the wrist could put down an entire team in no time.

Halo 2 sucks.

HunterX

10th Feb 06, 1:22 PM

Uber I was looking at the 2005 list of vulnerabilities (that I linked last page), trying to weed out the OS specific problems, and I kept loosing count (both Windows and Linux/Unix). I can tell you that the number of Multiple Distribution Linux Kernel problems appears to be less than that of the Windows problems (almost all of which are multiple OS version issues), even if you add on the the distro specific problems. Only when you add on a few of the required GNU packages (required if you want to do anything with your OS) does the number of vulnerabilities begin to approach that of Windows. OSX Has far fewer issues, and AIX, HP-UX, and FreeBSD don't even come close to having the number of security issues. Also factor in the number of updates of Linux/Unix issues to that of Windows. It looks to me that more of an effort is being made to patch Linux problems than Windows, or it just took more tries to fix the problem. Either way, developers are making an effort, and security patches are released when ever they are ready, not every Tuesday or what ever the update release cycle is for MS.

I'm not saying Linux is more secure. An OS is only as secure as the person using it. I'm only pointing out that Windows (the OS it self) has far more security issues than Linux/Unix (again the OS it self).

Stripe7

10th Feb 06, 1:34 PM

Windows is broken as far as security because all windows runs as a priviledged user. Until that is fixed security on windows is a joke. I hope Vista will fix this major security hole. Windows originally was supposed to be modular, until the marketing shills at M$ forced them to recode every thing into one monolithic block. You cannot remove packages you do not want or need as they are all delibrately tied in together. Ever tried removing outlook express? does not work. Ever try to change swap? Requires a reboot. Why I have no idea. Dynamic kernels have been around in unix for years and windows still works with a static one. You cannot load and unload kernel modules in windows without a reboot. :p

Alex Drake

10th Feb 06, 1:42 PM

@ Voidlore: Wait a minute, I don't see you crying whenever you have to upgrade your hardware to play a new game? If the report had said Halo2 PC would only run on the latest nVidia/ATI cards, would there be as much collective whining as there is about Vista? Oh right, I forgot that Microsoft is supposed to be the evil conglomerate bent on world [economic] domination. I suppose its terribly unfair for them to produce a game that requires DirectX10 to play, and then release an operating system that is DX10 native, but then again, if DX10 is the new standard, why shouldn't they do this? Listen, you're going to own Vista in a few years anyway, on top of it you get a decent game that takes advantage of its new features. Ultimately its win-win as far as Halo2 is concerned. If you're expecting a sub-par game, than why do [you] care so much whether it requires an upgrade or not? Would you buy the best video-card on the market just because some half-ass shooter demanded you use one to make it work? If no, then don't complain about having to buy Vista because you probably wouldn't anyway. If yes, than you'd just be a hypocrite if you refused to buy Vista.

@ Worf: If the insinuation that you, a common forum user like everyone else, might be a software pirate offends you... welcome to the intarweb.

I didn't buy Halo 1 because when it came for pc the astonishing graphics I was looking forward to were already beaten by other games. Same might be true for Halo 2. I will however not upgrade my OS for the sole reason to be able to play Halo 2. The intend of having Vista as a requirement is surely to improve sales for Vista. But it certainly is not the only reason, for MS it's just convenient. As I said earlier, Vista will eventually become a requirement for games so why care? Everybody was bitching about Ultima IX having insanely high system requirements. That's life, that's what's boosting technology development and the computer industry's sales. An office computer doesn't have to be state of the art, a game computer does. We wouldn't have any progress here if it weren't for games with system requirements ahead of the currently available technology.

Since you said the above, then I refer you to the second paragraph of my post.

Because now instead of paying $150-$450 for an Xbox/360 they have to pay... $250 for Vista and the game? If you didn't want to play the console version (or just don't like consoles in general) why would you be upset that the game you already didn't want to play has a requirement that means you now cannot play it for PC?

Essentially we are in agreement.

Next?

Ammon Ra

10th Feb 06, 2:09 PM

Hardware upgrades have become "second nature" so to speak, for the majority of people. i don't see new os' and service packs poping up as often as new chips, hardware, Mb's Etc. I'm running the same OS for the pat 5 years, but i've made countless hardware additions and changes to my PC. You can't compare the two.

Alex Drake

10th Feb 06, 2:12 PM

But you can't deny that with at some point or another, the OS paradigm must shift to stay current. Just because in the past OS upgrades have come slowly you cannot ignore the fact that the time-gap between basic OS "upgrades" have shrunk from the early 70s until today. While the two situations by no means identical, they are similar enough at a surface level to be compared.

Worf

10th Feb 06, 2:33 PM

@Alex Drake:
I said I'd buy it if it was good. I won't buy it if it is good but I'd have to upgrade my system to Vista to play it while my hardware would be able to run it.
So we're different here. My arguement may be false if the game runs on current hardware but is forced to run on Vista only due to MS dictation. That's the indication we're looking at currently since the x360 doesn't support DX10 which will be the major gaming improvement for Vista. If the game indeed uses features that are Vista only AND due to that looks/plays/feels better than the x360 version then we're on agreement. If it is the same game on the same visual effects level (=practically unchanged from the x360 version) then I'll be pissed and blame MS for just wanting to use it as a carrier for additional Vista sales. Because in that case I could just buy the x360 and the game now (if I didn't suck on using a gamepad in a 3d shooter which I do so this won't happen but that's beside the point).

My bad, I wasn't clear enough on the subject.

Besides: Your first post is just overly aggressive towards other users and I still don't understand why.

JargonFilter

10th Feb 06, 2:37 PM

Vista is not an improved versio of xp. it's built up from more/less scratch, using the knowlege gained before. As aprogrammer i know said, vista will reduce the number of functions from a few million [xp] down to a few tens of thousand [iirc]. Not good for compatability, wich already plagues win 2k/xp. don't quote me.

that was when it was longhorn 4xxx builds. they abandoned that and started all over using windows 2003 code and rewriting some new functions. things like winfs are no longer there, virtual folders are no longer as big a feature as they were supposed to be, the sidebar is now just a dock for widgets, and google has already delivered the functionality of the original sidebar with google desktop 3. vista went from being an revolutionary os to an evolutionary os. the revolutionary OS ms keeps promising is now back to blackcomb which has been renamed vienna.

thats my understanding anyway.

Ammon Ra

10th Feb 06, 2:53 PM

Thanks pimpster. :)
There still is the question as to why m$ would make it's new os/dx version less compatible with earlier versions. As i understand it, vista requires an emulator to run non-dx10 games, but wouldn't that increase the requirements to run the game, as vista itself requires so many resources, effectily artificially increasing the requirements for the games.

Also, Halo2 might be the first game for vista/dx10, but how many games will be developed specifically for dx10? Re: emulator read above part. When you would have been able to play say, hl2 hdr maps at maximum everything on winxp, say on vista you'd only be able to medium detail since vista hogs resources, no?

Alex Drake

10th Feb 06, 2:59 PM

@ Void; Perhaps as a coup for Vista user's so they can feel all warm and snuggly inside? Asteroids Halo2 ain't, and from what I've been reading about DX10, the performance benefits alone are more than enough reason to make it the flagship product for the drivers. In any case, seeing as how Vista will likely achieve fairly solid amrket penetration, Ir eally don't think its going alienate nearly as many people as you think it will.

@ Worf: I agree, clearly if it sucks, then it should be panned, but my point was that we agreed on the theory that an OS upgrade is nearly as easy to swallow as a hardware upgrade and I also think its fair to say that we've all gotten use to bi-yearly hardware upgrades, despite how abhorrently expensive they are. So if we're willing to shell out for other things so we can play our games like l337 losers that we are, what difference does a piece of software really make in that equation?

As for my "attack-oriented" stance, I've heard the same "Boo-hoo, Microsoft is raping us/Unethical/Shitty/The Devil Incarnate" song and dance nearly everytime they do anything. The fact is, they play smart business, on the whole their products work, and the general public is satisfied with'em. Vista + Halo 2 [for me] = logical sense. In order to play most games you're "required" to buy things. Imagine how console owners feel when they want to play the latest PC FPS (Far Cry anyone?) and realize they need a $1000 computer.... funny how we so easilly scoff at dropping a few hundred dollars on a console.... but not a video card that will be outdated even faster.

Anyway, chalk it up to annoyance, if you please.

Langy

10th Feb 06, 3:17 PM

Vista + Halo 2 [for me] != logical sense. It sounds like terrible planning, making Halo 2 require Vista. This is because most people won't be upgrading to Vista right away, so they're effectively tossing out a huge portion of the market. Now, if there was some programming reason why it would be cheaper to code Halo 2 for PC in DX10 than it would be to port it to DX9 *and* the difference is greater than the expected market loss from only releasing on Vista, then that might make logical sense. Except, as far as I know, Halo 2 was coded in DX9, it would be more expensive to recode it in DX10 than to port it straight to DX9, and there's no way that amount of market loss would be made up by the number of people who switch right away to Vista.

I will say that if Halo 2 does come out for Vista only, I will get it after I eventually get Vista itself. However, that's probably going to be a long ways away for me.

Stripe7

10th Feb 06, 4:11 PM

I would never buy Halo 2. I will probably buy Vista. :) That is odd that Halo 2 is written in DX9 on the Xbox but ported to DX10 on the PC and delibrately made to exclude 90%+ of the market.

I was very much against upgrading to Vista as I was planning to purchase my current system at that time and the equipment I wanted did not support Vista. However due to delays in getting my system when all the pieces of it showed up, I ended up with a Vista ready machine.

Note: One thing to note, chances are if you load up 3D drivers for games in Vista you will probably kill Aeroglass. That is one of the things some of the game developers and 3d grfx card vendors are working on right now. Rewriting their software so as not to do that.

Worf

10th Feb 06, 4:18 PM

I buy a new pc every 2-3 years, depending on my budget, so I'm not abiding by these rules anyway. But you're right, it's practically just another upgrade.
While Microsoft runs smart business, they're not always running fair business. Being a network administrator at the university I know of what I speak. They kind of regularly make it very difficult to keep the Novell Client running as it is supposed to be. Windows doesn't support the user functions we need (like distributing applications, personal acces rights, server partitions and if it supports these it's way too much work to keep it running) and every now and then MS implements a new routine into a security update for the IE that slows the login to a crawl, prevents network drive mapping, etc.
You then spend a night at the university trying to find out what went wrong only to hear from Novell the next day that MS just decided to make their life more difficult. That's just annoying and bad sportsmanship. It's difficult enough to repair the damage done by the last worm that got out before the security patch. Because one infected comp means 200 infected comps within half a day. /offtopic rant
You get the idea. That's why I'm not MS friendly after all.

General Blaze

10th Feb 06, 7:33 PM

All I can say about this is that you shouldn't upgrade to the first generation OS. Hold off a little bit longer. First Gens usually have more problems than later gens.

The Collector

10th Feb 06, 7:50 PM

Halo2 shouldn't be the only driving factor for a Vista upgrade; and it won't be for the population which has already played Halo2 and found it meh.

Mac_Bug

10th Feb 06, 8:46 PM

Example for sucky procedures:
For a Named Pipe Client (MSDN), you have to create a Named Pipe structure from a NP server. You can then access the Pipe from the client. To read from the Pipe, you use the following ReadFile function:

Code:

ReadFile(
hPipe, // pipe handle
chBuf, // buffer to receive reply
BUFSIZE*sizeof(TCHAR), // size of buffer
&cbRead, // number of bytes read
NULL); // not overlapped
That function does not return the bytes read from the pipe (or, better a structure that includes them as well as error messages), instead, you have to assign a pointer into your own memory space to receive the contents of the pipe.
That means that another programm (the ReadFile function) will write into your own memoryspace.
Whatever it wants.
You can't secure against that, since your programm is not actively part of that process - that is the very definition of buffer overflow. And this practice is *everywhere* They used it virtually in every function I saw.

I really don't see what your problem is. It's simply impossible to return structs unless it's dynamically allocated by the system call in question, and the burden of freeing it lies with...? Even if there is preallocated kernel space for such a struct, access to it would require additional function call, similar to GetLastError(). Even if you wanted to allocate your own struct and have the function fill that in, you'd still have to pass it in as part of the parameter and there'd be no point in returning such a struct at all.

Second of all, ReadFile and WriteFile are IPC mechanism system calls and the actual file copying is done by the Windows kernel, you are not, at any time, invoking external pieces of code. In the case of asychronous operation WriteFile would have to write to kernel buffer first, and then subsequent ReadFiles would obtain data from this kernel buffer. Or else in synchronous mode calls would be blocked waiting for the other side to offer data, but the code doing the data copying is still part of the kernel, not from 'another process', which simply cannot access your buffer directly in any shape or form unless it is mapped to shared memory - in which case it would still be impossible to do buffer overflow, modern OS memory management schemes forbids it.

RE: OS vulnerabilities

There is no denying that Windows is riddled with holes and that Unix by design is fundamentally more secure, but there seems to be some thing in the air to suggest that it is possible to write 100% secure code on the first pass or any pass - I've only seen Oracle claim UNBREAKABLE, of course you don't hear about that anymore. To a large degree security vulnerabilities are not like bugs - the former requires hackers or fluke on the programmer's part, the latter merely needs average Joe (there exists a few bugs that I've noticed over the years in Windows, MSN and others, and IE's image rendering is still shat on by the scroll wheel and possibly your graphic drivers) Despite the number of years Windows has been in use, there still exists vulnerabilities that goes all the way back to the Windows 95 era that were not discovered until now, or perhaps were not an issue until new features were added on top.

As for the critical ratings of vulnerabilities, most Linux ones relate to privilege escalation by local user and thus is usually ranked lower than remote exploits that Windows tends to suffer from, but on the other hand Linux environments are inherently multiusered and quite often accounts are given out precisely becuase they are supposed to be 'secure'. In terms of the local user, even if viruses or worms (it's a wonder why none of these guys actually go around and destroy data on people's harddrives instead of simply going for propagation) can be contained to that user only on a *nix system, well, and if you are that user, then I'd say it makes no difference whether your computer can still boot up or not. What makes them valuable to the average consumer is the files stored within, which of course, consists of what the user has access to, not what root has.

Slash

10th Feb 06, 9:18 PM

my guess is that the only reason why halo 2 is for vista, because since microshit...sorry i mean microsoft owns bungie and halo 2 altogether, it would be a good way for gamers to buy Vista, AND halo 2 in order to play it. Its all about business, this is just another way for bill basterd to get richer.

i bet the vista will have alot of bugs like the rest of the windows.....

long live mac

nuriel_xavier

10th Feb 06, 10:40 PM

fuck mac. i find them really not worth all the hype, unless maybe you grew up on em and are an artist. plus, windows is becomning more and more a mac clone... vista looks to be tiger mushed together with google, to become some strange resource-hogging jumbled mess that doesnt really provide any new functionality, but rather moves things around and looks 'glassy'.
and i hate ipods.

and im in a ranting mood tonight.

Stripe7

11th Feb 06, 3:04 AM

How do you handle multiple interfaces on a Windows box? I have set up unix systems with 20 different network connections and have had no problems with them. I seem to have problems getting windows to work with two different networks. :p

Windows is a basic spagetti OS that has a nice facade covering up a mess in the background. Unixes are mature modular OS's with very basic facades. It would be nice if Windows had a lot of the features of the more mature OS's and had not been delibrately turned into spagetti code.

CCTSMaster

11th Feb 06, 10:31 AM

I have no intention of upgrading to Vista untill it becomes abso-freaking-lutely neccessary.

And personally, I'm fucking tired of Media Company #n adding DRM Measure #n^2 to their products. It's going to get broken eventually, and dedicated pirates - the kind that, you know, actually SELL the things they supposedly steal - will get hold of a half-decent copy no matter what. FPGA's are a wonderful invention - I believe there are CRT screens/projectors with HDCP support, and capturing the decoded output from that is just a matter of some high-performance A/D converters (http://www.national.com/pf/AD/ADC081500.html#datasheet) stuffed into a higher-performance FPGA (http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon_solutions/fpgas/virtex/virtex4/index.htm) dev board set to decode the signals and shuffle them via USB 2 / GbE / FireWire800 / fishsticks to a computer, encode it like you'd encode a Blu-Ray/HDDVD "home video" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H264), and put in on seedy store shelves in asia and beyond.

Once again, score for the big corporations, and the little guys get knocked over as usual.

I'm not condoning piracy here, but when did a DRM scheme prevent large-scale fraud for very long? What's the use then to force people to:
1. Upgrade their hardware to run a new OS
2. Swap display devices which work eminently well for something with a couple additional chips
3. Spend $200 for a new OS

when there will be a (illegal, however) way to just push the play button like you usually would, as long as you get the right copy or the right software?

When it comes to the original topic - H2 on Vista - I find it pretty silly of Microsoft not to develop DX10 or a compatible replacement for WXP/2k. There's no really good reason to insist on it being vista-only aside from trying to get more people to adopt Vista.

-CCTSM

Langy

11th Feb 06, 12:09 PM

The idea isn't to stop large-scale stealing of the songs. They know they can't really stop that, only mildly hinder it for a few days. What they can do, however, is make it difficult for the average user to simply give their friends the songs they downloaded off iTunes. It basically just tells them 'since you can't do this without a bunch of tinkering, it's obviously illegal, so don't do it.'

Beelzebuddy

11th Feb 06, 12:14 PM

It's not illegal. Sharing stuff with a few friends qualifies as fair use.

What's (currently) illegal is vast P2P sharing, and that isn't hindered one bit by any DRM scheme. So now instead of friends telling friends "Hey, check out this series I'm sending you," it's "Hey, download this series." So, does that make the *AAs accessories to the crime?

CCTSMaster

11th Feb 06, 12:14 PM

And therefore I ask myself; What's so goddamn wrong with people giving x to their friends/family/whatevar, something that doesn't significantly lower their profits, as opposed to people selling stuff? I'd imagine "true" piracy is a much bigger pain in the butt than file swapping.

*shrug*.

I'm just upset about the hardware side of it all - I don't mind iTunes, I personally applaud Apple and the others for actually getting the point that CD's aren't all they're made up to be. But requiring chip A and driver B and rootkit C is wrong.

(Edit: Was replying to Langy, but Beelze was faster than meh.
In any case, the DMCA is just silly. Reverse-engineering stuff should not be illegal - it's in most cases harmless competitive sports in the cases where the legality of it would even be considered.)

Stripe7

11th Feb 06, 12:21 PM

DRM has nothing to do with piracy. It has to do with charging you several times for what you buy and to keep you from buying from their competitors. Piracy is just the excuse they use to try to lock out their competitors and charge you for every device you put your music or video on. DMCA has been used more times to stop competition in the marketplace than anything to do with piracy.

Mnementh

11th Feb 06, 12:35 PM

The movie industry has made a mint from selling you tickets to see the film on the big screen, then selling you a stupidly expensive DVD (DVD's cost a fraction of what it cost to make a video tape, and yet a much more expensive) then sell the rights to TV stations so you can watch it 12 months after its out on DVD.

The music industry wants to go this way, and they are using DRM to make it happen. Buy the CD, want a copy for your ipod? Buy an ipod copy. Want a copy for the car? Buy another CD.

At least vista has some sensible security improvements, like limited access to OS systems and better use of user accounts to limit what programs you download can do without your permission.

hybris

12th Feb 06, 4:55 AM

Bungie defends their decision on releasing Halo2 only for Windows Vista, by saying "we're not idiots and we're not jerks"

http://www.bungie.net/News/TopStory.aspx?story=updatefeb10

Worf

12th Feb 06, 6:11 AM

The two biggest fundamental differences between Halo 2 on Xbox and the forthcoming Vista version, will be map customization and matchmaking
I see that for this Vista is a requirement that can't be changed. It's in no way possible to program a map editor for XP as have proven the unsuccesfull examples in the text. /sarcasm

I think I might have no problem with the fact they're porting it to Vista only if they just said: Ok, Halo2 doesn't truly need Vista, we're doing it to promote Vista sales.
Acting the way they do now is just declaring the customer to be a complete idiot.

P.S.: Whoever wrote that article is hopefully not programming the game or responsible for the company's finances, since an improvement from 0 to 1 is != +100%

Starblade

12th Feb 06, 7:54 AM

Derailing the discussion like i normally do. Heres a picture of what supposedly its going to look like on the PC

That's the Master Chief model from the original Halo you dolt. So's that assault rifle he's holding, which isn't even in the sequel. Or were you trying to be witty?

BTW, when's Vista coming out, and will I need to upgrade right away?

-58

12th Feb 06, 8:24 AM

No idea when it's coming out. I believe Halo 2 VISTA's being developed simultaniously with the OS, similar to original Halo and the XBOX.

If you want to play Halo 2, you'll have to upgrade. It won't be capable of running on any other OS.

Beelzebuddy

12th Feb 06, 9:50 AM

I believe Halo 2 VISTA's being developed simultaniously with the OSIt's a direct port. If they were actually spending money taking advantage of any kind of new functionality they'd at least have had the marketing sense to name it "Halo 2: Blowjob Edition."

CCTSMaster

12th Feb 06, 10:45 AM

Entirely off-topic, I find it odd that MS doesn't decide to launch new OSes with a mandatory MMO-like subscription model... I mean, they try so hard to screw over the consumer, why not require them to pay each month for something? I mean, we get the entirely timely and always perfect Windows Update patches, right?

RIGHT?

And personally, while it does prevent virii and such, I'm not extremely enthusiastic about various execution prevention systems, as MS have a tendency to make them have a life of their own. Effectively locking the user out of running something if it serves their interests. Doesn't some game copy protection schemes go crazy if you run Daemon tools, etc?

Beelzebuddy

12th Feb 06, 10:55 AM

Mwah? (http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/09/1346212) Eh? (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/02/1412245)

hiddensmoke

12th Feb 06, 10:55 AM

Or were you trying to be witty?

Nope, i said supposedly, from what i heard i was guessing that was what hed look like.

Beelzebuddy

12th Feb 06, 11:13 PM

Hahahaha! (http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_nvidia_hdcp_support/)

A176

13th Feb 06, 12:36 AM

Excellent article. Most notably,
HDCP is the brain-child of Intel, and now belongs to a spin-off company, Digital Content Protection, LLC.

Now that it is owned by a 'spin off', I predict huge internet boycott.

Stripe7

13th Feb 06, 12:08 PM

FYI: I just found out that NONE of the Grfx cards available today at retail are HDCP compliant!

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_nvidia_hdcp_support/

TheDeadlyShoe

13th Feb 06, 1:49 PM

Yes...morons.

Stripe7

13th Feb 06, 2:42 PM

Just means there is absolutely no point in buying a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray drive for your PC to watch videos.

Ammon Ra

13th Feb 06, 3:09 PM

Personally i think that the entire media [movie, music] sector got caught with their pants down over the period of several years as internet grew and more (!!) people started to use it. They're just extreemly conservative in their method of distribution, and as stripe mentioned on page 10, the entire drm is to reinforce their market share.

. If you want to watch movies at 1980x1080, your system will need to support HDCP. If you don’t have HDCP support, you’ll only get a quarter of the resolution. A 75% loss in pixel density is a pretty big deal That would mean your resolution would drop to 495*270. Now, lets assume that there won't be any graphic cards capable of decrypting the signals untill a year after vista is released. Then again, that's only for pc's. There are many seperate hdcp-compatible dvd-readers for the tv, and HD-ready screans to go around, so that area won't be affected too badly.

I seriously don't understand why, instead of adopting internet as a new means of selling and sending films, the industry crys victim -due to it's own ignorance of technology- and starts a crusade that won't discourage pirates much but will hamper your average user. Then again, i'm not intending to watch HD dvds anytime soon, not on my pc or on any other equipment, so i dont really care about it all, and is there really such a big difference in the experience between traditional resolutions [@100Hz] and the new HD resolutions? Wouldn't one be more wise to invest in a home-theatre sound setup and/or a larger screen? :meh: