Logistics

[Lochar]

While I know alot of people dont like the idea of refuelling or re-arming in their games, I wonder what effect of unlimited ammo would do here.

Now unless there are penalties, consider taking a tank or a few and instead of patrolling with foot soldiers just sitting back and demolishing everything in sight. Instead of a area visibly blocked by houses you have a barren plane.

Ammo curbs this, also maybe timers (which I hate) and this may not be viable for MP depending on the goals but from what little Ive read most buildings or capture pts are to allow building certain units.

[Tranj]

While I know alot of people dont like the idea of refuelling or re-arming in their games, I wonder what effect of unlimited ammo would do here.

Now unless there are penalties, consider taking a tank or a few and instead of patrolling with foot soldiers just sitting back and demolishing everything in sight. Instead of a area visibly blocked by houses you have a barren plane.

Ammo curbs this, also maybe timers (which I hate) and this may not be viable for MP depending on the goals but from what little Ive read most buildings or capture pts are to allow building certain units.
Blow up the buildings, and you remove your own cover as well. I highly doubt you will have time to waste shooting at empty buildings while your enemy is firing at you.

[immortal44]

Talk about a waste of resources ;)

The time taken to level everything would be huge given the rate of fire of the tanks?

[Lochar]

Ok lets just say not the whole map, but tanks and infantry go hand and hand. Why waste a troop of soldiers when you can just shell the buildings? Yes you may lose your own cover to advance in but it would clear the area. We could even take it back a step and say not even demolish the whole building but send 1 tank shot in ever bldg you come close to and see what shakes loose. If the enemy is hiding chances are your gonna hear screams or troops running and with you own troops covered behind you can possibly pick them off.

There are no resources to lose except time, granted how well this works when the enemy brings their tanks to bear is another thing.

I just think of it as a quake game with everyone armed with grenade launchers.

I think this wouild be a first game for me where the enviroment can be helpful as well as hazardous and unlimited ammo for the big guns just makes me wonder . It reminds me of Saving Private Ryan where the sniper guy in the tower or the MG in the windows lasted only as long as it took for a big gun to take notice. A tank with 10 shells left needs to make a decision, let the troops take out the troops and conserve for an enemy tank, or blast the spots where they are chewing up our grunts and hope an AT guy can get any tanks.


And yeah I am jumping the gun as havent fully seen the game and what can and cannot be done but was just curious because like I said this would be my first where I can crumple a building out from the enemy.

[Starfisher]

We could even take it back a step and say not even demolish the whole building but send 1 tank shot in ever bldg you come close to and see what shakes loose.Yeah, it's a good tactic if you don't care what happens afterwards. It makes sense to do and I see no problem in allowing it to be done - scorching the earth is a valid, if foolish, way to fight.

But as Tranj pointed out, if holding a point has any significance, then you will have removed your cover or reduced it to piles of rubble. Now your infantry is exposed, and your tanks are visible and in the open. Plus, I get the sense that your tanks are going to have to be shooting at other tanks rather than blasting buildings, and if tanks are "authentically" modeled, I can see one or two hits taking them down.

edit: You're right, though, that if not handled carefully it could be a balance/gameplay issue. We can all hope for a playable demo or some such come E3, to see exactly how it is handled.

[Lochar]

edit: You're right, though, that if not handled carefully it could be a balance/gameplay issue. We can all hope for a playable demo or some such come E3, to see exactly how it is handled.


True, I just hate to see a great infantry game become a tank battle and while mines will make tanks wary, and need infantry, how much will they really need inf support.

My main point tho is that tactics will change if no supply is ever needed.

[immortal44]

It doesn't become a tank game if rubble remains?? Still plenty of cover hopefully for infantry.

I do see what you are saying though about requiring ammo for tanks and I'd throw in missile troops too. Not for general infantry though since that would slow the game right down. I'm mainly thinking about this in terms of tanks firing a shell where the player think an enemy 'may' hide. I'm not worried about tanks levelling the map as I'd guess that would takes ages. At the same time ammo for tanks would be kind of annoying unless it was handled automatically (ie this tank is out, so HQ sends a jeep up or something).

The game sounds amazing and this isn't really a concern to me.

[retroholyfire]

don't even need to shoot the buildings. just drive through them with the tanks.

[LoneWolf666]

From the trailers it seems that blasting buildings takes a lot of effort. If you're willing to lose half an hour demolishing one street to no end whatsoever, it's your choice. Just remember that you will have to hold that street once the enemy comes knocking on your door, and he didn't spend the last minutes blasting buildings away. However, should you encounter enemy units holed up in a building, feel free to blow them up with a satchel charge, there will still be plenty of the structure left to hide in. ;)

Damn, I can't wait for a demo! :D

EDIT: Have you seen the ROF of the tanks? No way I'm waiting for these fellas to reload just to level a building! Oh, and I'm all against having to supply your units, it's not fun and slows the game down as all useless micro does. Even an automatic process would cut the games pace.

[Tiresias]

I think I may try and demolish every building in the Singleplayer. EVERY GODDAMN ONE

[DatonKallandor]

Level Europe completely?


Daton

[Mogolov]

I think that should be saved for a mod, a "drop the bomb" button. ;)

[Brinkman]

i love ammo depletion

games like Advance Wars (GBA) and Blitzkrieg (PC) use that.. all pretty well i might add

one thing you gotta make sure though.. if CoH is gonna have it in there.. make resuplying not a burden or cumbersome.. maybe something as simple as having an ammo truck or jeep drive in a vicinity of infantry.. and by clicking a button on the jeep/truck (honking their horn and shouting "AMMO":) ) anyone with low ammo would run to the truck, stock up and get back to battle.. no extra clicking or micro management.. they know what to do..

[DatonKallandor]

If its fully automatic and doesn't add anything to gameplay - why add it then? Leave ammo out of this (except as the rescource of course).


Daton

[Jimmythefoot]

Just as a question slightly off topic. Will there be more open terrain than just cities? Say countryside because i would assume the style of play and of course logistics to a degree would change dramatically in more "line of sight friendly" terrain.

[Akranadas]

Yes there will be country side.

Why would you waste your tank trying to blow out the infantry in a building, when you could use it as a massive shield and allow your men to take the building and then provide yourself with a great advantage...think about it ;)

[Lochar]

Yes there will be country side.

Why would you waste your tank trying to blow out the infantry in a building, when you could use it as a massive shield and allow your men to take the building and then provide yourself with a great advantage...think about it ;)


My main point was that having unlimited ammo can change tactics. Yes I agree scorched earth wont help you defensively, and while time consuming it would be possible. But I was just using it as an example.

Just like in the thread where they are discussing fatigue, these little things are what made alot of WWII battles become remembered. Battles fought with tired troops or low ammo, and even those won by fuel.

I know alot want a fast paced game but now that we will have a game that depicts great AI, I would love to experience some of those situations again.

[LoneWolf666]

One thing you have to remember, this game is supposed to be dynamic, not realistic. If you want a WW2 simulation, go play Blitzkrieg, Sudden Strike or whatever. This game doesn't look like it's about logistics, it looks to be all about action. Hell, even the soldiers don't need telling them when to jump into cover, so telling them to bring extra ammo along simply doesn't fit. That, and resupplying in RTS games sucks. ;) No, seriously, remembering about supplies in the heat of city fighting is annoying at best to most people, including me.

[Starfisher]

True, but his point is valid. If one can simply pop off a tank shell whenever there's even a suspicion of an ambush, it makes ambushes a whole lot harder to pull off.

I get the feeling that tanks might not be as prevalent as infantry, though.

[DatonKallandor]

If you see a tank wasting a building next to the one your infantry is actually in, thats the opportunity to attack him. By constantly firing, you open up the opportunity for a counterattack while your reload.


Daton

[LoneWolf666]

You can send a squad into every suspicious building if you want to flush out any enemies. It's better than waiting for your tanks to reload anyway. :P

[Brinkman]

If its fully automatic and doesn't add anything to gameplay - why add it then? Leave ammo out of this (except as the rescource of course).


Daton

not automated.. just the resuply processes

risks to reuspplying:

1) you'll have to take your troupes off the line or direct combat
2) you will have to protect your ammo jeeps/trucks to and from base

[LoneWolf666]

1) you'll have to take your troupes off the line or direct combat
2) you will have to protect your ammo jeeps/trucks to and from base

But that's exactly what you DON'T want to have in a fast-paced RTS...

[Tesla]

i think it willl be cool if by the end of the game every-thing is ruuble, it will add a more apocaliptic feel to the end of the battle, kinda like looking at the remains of a WW1 battlefield, if corpses and explosions remain like in DOW (that i hope it will), you could spend ages just looking over the battlefield at the end of an extream game, just seeing all the carnage and destruction

[Lochar]

You can send a squad into every suspicious building if you want to flush out any enemies. It's better than waiting for your tanks to reload anyway. :P

True but at what cost to infantry and while I dont know wether experience is in or not, I would hate wasting troops, assaulting a defensive position can be expensive.

I also dont know ranges of anti tank guns here so it could be a mute point. Mines are another thing but like one mentioned, just drive thru the house.


I realize this isnt a sudden strike game and I Am not asking it to be but I do like strategies other than point and click and since the AI is better at cover this will free up alot of micromanaging. Sure you can flank an enemy but how many tactical or strategic decisions will be made? DoW was a blast to play and I imagine CoH will be too, but it doesnt mean I wouldnt have wanted more? There are way too many RTS where the strategy mainly iinvolves how fast can one get their armies into play.

[DatonKallandor]

Sure you can flank an enemy but how many tactical or strategic decisions will be made?

The one's who flank will naturally win of those who don't because of the supply line mechanics.


Daton
PS.: Tanks can't drive through houses - just through walls.

[immortal44]

It is no problem assuming it would be automatic. Just forces players/AI to have to set up a battleline with reinforcements to protect supply lines which IMO would be a very good thing. Also gives some good 'behind enemy lines' strategy.

[retroholyfire]

Damn. I would really have liked to see tanks drive through buildings :D Supplies are possible whithout really slowing the game since they would be automatic, would affect gameplay and make sneak attacks round the rear more of an option. Too long to explain the idea in detail. Infantry should have unlimited ammo but AT guns and tanks should have limited ammo. That means you don't want to blast like mad at your enemy infantry with your tanks since when they retreat to restock the enemy will steamroller your troops.