Hand-to-Hand Combat

[Mogolov]

anyone know if this has been included at all?

[Tiresias]

hmmm It's possible albeit it will be a much less effective tactic than in DoW, as running up to people with guns in WW2 would be nigh on suicidal. Rather if your troops end up very very close I hope they may start hitting each other with rifle butts. However shooting each other at point blank wouldn't be problematic for me.

[LoneWolf666]

Don't you think hand to hand would be a bit boring in a game that is all about muzzle flashes and exploding terrain?

[Starfisher]

Sure, but it can happen. If two squads of infantry are fighting amidst a city that's essentially a rubble pile, it's not hard for things to get confused to the point where two enemies might be close enough to have stab each other.

They give out bayonets and knives for more than decorative purposes.

[Starblade]

Wouldn't one of them just shoot their pistol or something?

[LoneWolf666]

Well, close combat did happen quite often, but mostly in buildings, and even then, sub-machine guns dominated. I just don't think Relic should commit resorces to developing a marginal aspect of the game which would be seen rarely if at all and would be boring to watch...

[DatonKallandor]

I assume the AI will go for CC when two squads are VERY close to each other. Otherwise you got the strange visual of 2 people standing 1 meter from each other and emptying their mags at point blank.


Daton

[Klaus88]

Boring historical fact ahead!

During WWII most of the front line grunts and riflemen basically were equiped with a RIFLE and some GRENADES! Pistols were not standard issue to riflemen in the major armies. So this means that knives and bayonets at close range were actually more viable then it might seem as if you're faced with choice between a single shot bolt action rifle and a knife at point blank range... the knife actually works better.

But I don't think they'll put the effort into CC that they did into DOW

[Akranadas]

I Demand Helmet Bashing/throwing

[Starblade]

Pistols were not standard issue to riflemen in the major armies.

I did not know that. Neat.

[retroholyfire]

WW1 is a good example of what happens when you try to get right up to your enemy when they are dug in. sub machine guns were used quite often at very close range

[DatonKallandor]

That's only a viable tactic if you HAVE them. And for the normal battlefield, the more accurate (and cheaper) bolt action/semi-auto rifles were better.


Daton

[Klaus88]

Not to mention submachine gunners tend to have a short life span as it's in everyone's best interest to kill the soldier with the gun that puts out so much short range firepower.

Unless you're the russians who basically give whole regiments of guys submachine guns and said, "See that trench line comrades? That's about 700 feet away and has three machine guns in it? Run towards it firing from the hip with out stopping to aim. Actually don't stop at all until you get to the trench and kill everyone in it or you die."

I'M NOT KIDDING! This was a popular russian tactic during the later years of the war!


Another side note: A fair amount of rifle men did have pistols even though they weren't standard issue. They got them off the bodies of dead enemies and comrades. Hell some American GIs carried the Colt 45. pistols that their fathers had used in WWI.

[Starfisher]

Back on topic (guys, minutia doesn't count, and the game is about authenticity, not realism ;) ), I see no problem with relic putting in a couple animations to handle close combat - bayonet stab, bayonet block, knife stab, helmet SMASH. It shouldn't happen often, but when it does, it should look right. No more, "Hey you're two inches away and I have a bayonet but I'm going to fire with my garand, waste ammo and have the random number generator make me miss!"

[DatonKallandor]

That's what I was thinking too. Also they have expirience in CC animating and the underlying system from work on DoW. Its also handy to prepare the engine for possible future games (DoW2 *hint*) at the conception stage, instead of tucking it on afterwards.


Daton

[Demon_Eyes]

Even a bolt action rifle can be used as a club, it would make sense for them to attack in hand to hand if they were that close. I would hope as well that relic did not take a step backwards in game design from their most recent title.

[Lochar]

I havent seen any vids yet that actually show inside a bldg, and to me, that where alot of assaults would be close combat unlesss they have some kind of charge move order that would have troops rushing to get up close or there are some commando stealth type units.

[LoneWolf666]

Hmmmm. Sync-kills again? Count me in, though they may not be as spectacular as in DoW. And it's true that it is better to di... Uhh, to have even the most basic cc animations than watching guys standing half a meter apart, trying to shoot each other in the face and missing...

[Mogolov]

good discussion guys!

[guardsman lover]

It would be nice in online when you have a mass melee with your friends for fun and your guys start getting into fist fights and use boxing moves famous during their time.

[Ecthelion]

Umm...

No.

Pistols were standard issue to all major powers during the Second World War save the Japanese.

Rifles and SMGs malfunctioned often, so there was always need for a secondary weapon. And pistols are easy to manufacture too.

As for close quarters combat. I'm not going to say that it didn't happen, but in almost every case, a working gun is preferred. Even at the closest ranges, it is easier to pull a trigger than to throw a punch.

[Twitch2396]

Ummm...

No. Klause88 is right

pistols were only standard issue to officers, and yes the Japanese had a standard issue pistol that was issued to officers and tank commanders(it sucked, if you press the side of it too hard it would go off).

The rifles very rarely malfunctioned(the garand is said to very reliable and so was the k-98), and the same goes for the smg's.

In fact there were a lot of instances were bayonets were used, and knives.

In close quarters combat knives were prefered 'cause its a lot easier to knife someone a foot away than to shoot them(especially the way close combat tends to be fought, constantly moving and all).

[Killer Of Many]

They should have close combat but it should be fast and ferocious, basically ending quick with lots of violence and blood. Not necessarily heads and limbs being cut off but bloody with bayonets and knives.

[DatonKallandor]

Even at the closest ranges, it is easier to pull a trigger than to throw a punch.

Its much easier to stab someone with a bajonet or bash someone with your rifle but, than Aim and fire at someone at arms reach.


Daton

[Tesla]

plus the rifle is clunky and somone could easyly push away the end, or push it into you, imagine being stangled with your own rifle by somone pushing it into your throut

[Starblade]

That would be kind of hard with a bayonet through you, wouldn't it?

[Tesla]

right i am using my immense paint skils to show u how i think it would go.

1. guy with gun, guy without gun
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c241/valtec/1.jpg

2. guy with gun fires, guy without pushis rifle out of way
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c241/valtec/2.jpg

3. guy grabs other side of rifle
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c241/valtec/3.jpg

4. one guy now with hands on both sides of rifle now has more leverage, and can push down while other pushes up *use force of gravity man*
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c241/valtec/4.jpg

to use a gun up close is very clumbsy, expecialy a rifle, this might seem complex but scince we are hunting animals, and when our adrenalin starts pumping in that situation, in most instances you would do this automaticly without training/practice

[retroholyfire]

Or you could just aim at kick at the privates (pun intended) and punch his head.

[Tesla]

that would probaly also work yes :)

[LoneWolf666]

Or let loose a burst from an smg.

[Starfisher]

If you had one. Since not everyone had one, or the guy with it could have been shot, such a weapon might not be an option. Or since hand to hand is confusing and by nature close, you might not want to blow away your friends.

[A ok]

I think when they were close they used CC to save ammo

[Oryhara]

Unless you're the russians who basically give whole regiments of guys submachine guns and said, "See that trench line comrades? That's about 700 feet away and has three machine guns in it? Run towards it firing from the hip with out stopping to aim. Actually don't stop at all until you get to the trench and kill everyone in it or you die."


I don't know about that tactic, but I'm pretty sure the Russians had whole divisions with SMG's that rode on tanks, which would drive right up to the trench and the guys would jump off.

Oh, and if there is CC with bayonets in this game, all I would ever do is bayonet charge.
Mass bayonet = insta win!

[LoneWolf666]

On HD video you can see germans shooting americans at point-blank range, so my guess - no HTH in CoH.

[guardsman lover]

Awww... I wanted sergeants pistol whipping his subordinates.

[Tranj]

No hand to hand. The mechanism was in, and even shipped in the outfit, but to create convincing animations for very rare hand to hand combat just was not high enough on the priority list. There are a couple times when I play and I sneak up on a mortar team that I would love the satisfaction of a knife kill or a baoynet poke...sigh.

[DatonKallandor]

Excellent! The mechanics are in the engine, which means its easy to mod it back in. Don't worry Tranj, a short while after release you can play with close combat again.


Daton

[Tesla]

whay medeval CoH mod :3dcool:

[Bonnet]

Or you could put it in in a later patch, hint hint, wink, wink.

[guardsman lover]

That would be nice. But I want to see the physics first!

[Mogolov]

Tranj, you have the power!

If you want to creep up and cut their throats, i'm sure a bit of gentle persuasion to the team would work. ;)

[LordZon]

:werd: Wouldn't their power armor help them get into hand to hand?

[Busby]

Wouldn't their power armor help them get into hand to hand?

And where would Nazis and the Allies get power armor from exactly? Would it fall out the sky in "drop pods"?

[retroholyfire]

Just want to point out that there is a difference between a Nazi and a German. In WW2 many Nazi's were German but not many Germans were Nazi's.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

But only Nazis would have power armour, silly. ;)

[LoneWolf666]

Well, seems I'm the only one who's not gonna miss this vastly unimportant and hardly spectacular feature... :frog:

[Mogolov]

theres always one isnt there. ;)

[Ecthelion]

It's amusing how someo of you have deemed it so easy to riflebutt, bayonet or punch. It is not. All those movements require some degree of accuracy and a lot of strength. They can also be parried, blocked or dodged. Unless I am literally FACE TO FACE with my enemy, it is much easier, deadlier to use a gun, of any kind.

There is a reason why modern guns do not come with bayonets and massive heavy wooden butts.

[Mogolov]

"There is a reason why modern guns do not come with bayonets...."


Might want to reword that before someone ribbs you. ;)

[DatonKallandor]

Modern guns DO come with bayonetts. I recommend reading up on them a bit.


Daton

[retroholyfire]

Modern guns don't have heavy butts because they try wherever possible to cut down on weight. A lot of guns have plastic parts.

[Ecthelion]

Yes, there is technically a bayonet mount on some modern rifles. But you'll be hard pressed to find pictures of soldiers actually having a bayonet on his rifle. Bayonets were out of style by the First World War. You'll notice that they are quite rare in photos

[DatonKallandor]

There's been an old-fashioned bajonet charge in Iraq. The current one.


Daton

[Bobacanoosh]

Although I will admit that watching opposing minesweepers get into a boxing match sounds pretty fun, it's not really surprising that cc isn't in because the new damage model seems to make charging a really bad idea, as your troops won't have any cover and one or two shots could bring them down.

[Tesla]

that and becouse there is no HP, i dont think it will be fun seeing people go down after a single punch

[Mogolov]

Indeed Daton, there was a few instances where british troops had to fix bayonets during this current conflict, theres nothing old fashioned about running at people with knives strapped to guns.

[Lochar]

Yes, there is technically a bayonet mount on some modern rifles. But you'll be hard pressed to find pictures of soldiers actually having a bayonet on his rifle. Bayonets were out of style by the First World War. You'll notice that they are quite rare in photos
Hmmm well it was a movie but it seemed they used them alot in the Thin Red Line while charging a japanese implacement. Also they were used in the When We Were Soldiers when they also charged a fixed position during Vietnam. Granted modern rifles have more ammo but in WWII those rifles were limited and the germans had bolt action so I am sure it was easier to stab an enemy than risk getting shot or stabbed while trying to reload.

I think bayonets would be ideal for any assaulting action especially when you hear that 'CLICK'. They said they made the gun less accurate but close quarters dont matter.

[Klaus88]

Something you're forgetting here is that modern guns tend to have a much higher rate of fire then the standard Bolt action rifles of WWII. This makes shooting in close quarters a much more realistic option when you can empty a 30 round clip in couple of seconds instead of needing a minitue to fire 8 or 9 shots.

[DatonKallandor]

And once your clip is empty? Reloading still isn't fast.


Daton

[retroholyfire]

Special ops units still fight in close combat (not primarily obviously) but they use double-edged combat knives rather than bayonets since they are too cumbersome and the extra weight on the front can effect aiming.

[LoneWolf666]

Special Ops never charge enemy lines, though. For normal troops, bayonets are still the best option available.

[Mogolov]

indeed, cant remember the last time i heard of specials charging the line lol.

i think relic should introduce bayonets for normal troops though, just to look cool on rifles.
Obviously Smg troops wont have this.

[Ecthelion]

I advise all the bayonet lovers out there to actually read some primary literature from the First World War (the last major war where bayonets were used with any degree of significance). They all say the same thing: even at close ranges with non-shooting rifles, a spade, a club or a rifle butt was a better option than a bayonet. The reason being the fact that it's too easy to get a bayonet stuck in a person's ribcage.

If there is to be hand to hand combat, rifle butting and punching are really the only two acceptable attacks. No one is going to stop, fix their bayonet and then engage, he'd be dead 5 times over.

[LoneWolf666]

From what I heard, german troops during WW2 used their bayonets often... As can openers. :D

[n0z3k1ll3r]

I advise all the bayonet lovers out there to actually read some primary literature from the First World War (the last major war where bayonets were used with any degree of significance). They all say the same thing: even at close ranges with non-shooting rifles, a spade, a club or a rifle butt was a better option than a bayonet. The reason being the fact that it's too easy to get a bayonet stuck in a person's ribcage.

If there is to be hand to hand combat, rifle butting and punching are really the only two acceptable attacks. No one is going to stop, fix their bayonet and then engage, he'd be dead 5 times over.You can use a bayonet just as a knife you know, right?

[Mogolov]

More useless bayonet info...modern day bayonets are designed so that they are easily removable from a body, there is a blood vein that allows the pressure to escape. watched some program about it on discovery.

[Soldier of Dest]

There will be no hand-to-hand combat when I play. My MG-42 will own everything that comes to close :D :D :D

[retroholyfire]

I never mention special ops charging any line. dunno why people assumed that. I'm talking about stealth missions.

[Borriesz]

Ontopic: This game will NOT contain any form of melee/hand-to-hand combat. I assume we can close this topic, anyway? ;)

[Ecthelion]

Yes... I know a bayonet is a long double bladed (sometimes single, sometimes even with a cerated (SP?) edge) dagger essentially.

But as you might know, even a dagger is no match for a club in imprompeteu melee engagements. Dagger is only good if you are well trained for it and if you are mentally ready. It takes some nerve to stick a blade in someone; clubbing them is much easier.

[Tesla]

But aparently it is in the engine, so it can be modded in

[Mogolov]

excellent stuff!! Thats what i like to hear! Bring on the 12 rounds with Adolf! ;)

[retroholyfire]

Adolf vs Churchill vs Roosevelt vs Stalin vs Mussolini vs Yamamoto :D that would be a great fight.

[Mogolov]

Dictator Death Match!!

:D

That would be hillarious! Clubs and bayonets only! :lol:

[Soldier of Dest]

Handbags only! Wooo bitchfight! :handbag: ^^

[Mogolov]

I'm well looking forward to seeing what level we can really push things to...mmmmmm....


PAINTBALL. ;)

[retroholyfire]

Yeh. WW2 was a big con and infact was the largest paint ball competition in existance :D