American Rifle Team vs German Volksgrenadier

[FluffyJr2]

First let me say that after playing a dozen or so games in COH, I am extremely pleased with the game, with all the crap that is being released these days its refreshing to see a well made game.

However, nothing is perfect, there are some issues that stick out in my mind that I would like to hear other people’s opinion on.


I am a real stickler for Historical accuracy. So why for the love of god do Volksgrenadier's fire at the same rate of the American Rifleman? If the American's are carrying M1 Garands a semi-automatic rifle and the Germans are carrying K98's a bolt action rifle, in an even fight an American rifle team should always come out on top. Historically the Garand was superior in almost every way to the K98. From the testing I have done they seem to fire at the same rate and do the same damage.

Does anyone have actual numbers? I have just been going from what I have seen in playing a few games. Am I crazy or does anyone else here think historical accuracy is very very important.

[OjKa]

Maybe the allies riflemen are using Lee Enfields

[Thefish]

they are deffinatly garands, just zoom in and you can see.

[FluffyJr2]

Lee Enfields? Why would American's be using a British rifle? I had assumed that the allies were in fact American, since they have American accents, and pretty much resemble the American Military with things like the classic American jeep and army units such as the rangers, an Iconic American Army unit. Airborne that carry the Carbine

[Reppyboyo]

I though it was a P45 that does the strafing runs?

[Siegeman]

I believe it is a P-47 Thunderdbolt that does the strafing. The P-40 was mostly used in the early days of the Pacific War.

[Commissar[PT]]

those strafing runs are deadly for infantry lol...

i could't agree with FluffyJr2 more. when viewing replays, sometimes i like zooming in, and see the action, and i analized how many shots a infantryman did, before reloading... i am sad that no jumping clip in garand, and the reloads are randoom.. sometimes after 7 / 8 shots...

the kar is the same thing... the reloads are a random event sadly. (in rangers they always do 1 burst, 1 animation, another burst, and a reload.

i think they did that for balancing purposes though, or the axies would loose in a 1 on 1 squad fight.

[FluffyJr2]

P45? There's no such thing. Im almost positive it's a P40, then again I mostly play Infantry. It may be a P47 which would make more sense but I cant check because the servers arent working

[Caesar]

For the most part, Volksgrenadiers should be armed with automatic weapons and not rifles.

[FluffyJr2]

For the most part, Volksgrenadiers were light all purpous infantry/reserves and to be equipped with rifles makes just as much sense as being equipped with an automatic weapon, also the fact that they are equipped with a panzerfaust makes them even more resemble a German rifle team. In fact they should probably not be called Volksgrenadiers at all

Not only do they carry the K98 a rifle inferior to the M1 Garand in every way, Volksgrenadiers are for the most part, for lack of better wording reserves. They should not hold a candle to an American rifle team.

[Mirage Knight]

What Relic calls Volkgrenadiers don't even look like true Volksgrenadiers...in fact VG squads were only seen when the german border was crossed as they basically functioned as a "home guard", culled from civillians who normally wouldn't be accepted by the Army and given whatever weapons and uniforms they could find.

Speaking of squads...why aren't normal squads larger in size? They should be 9+1.

I'd definitely like to see proper grenadiers armed with the G43 Karbine and non-coms starting out with MP40's, upgradeable to StG44's.

[FluffyJr2]

Correct, typically an american rifle team consisted of 10 men, 9 garands and 1 Browning Automatic Rifle,This of course varried, some rifle teams had 2 to 3 BAR's. Also if you want to get really technical the officers primarily carried pistols/Thompson sub machine guns.

[DatonKallandor]

For the most part, Volksgrenadiers were light all purpous infantry/reserves and to be equipped with rifles makes just as much sense as being equipped with an automatic weapon, also the fact that they are equipped with a panzershrek makes them even more resemble a German rifle team.

Volksgrenadier Squads don't have panzerschrecks. Grenadier squads have em.


Daton

[FluffyJr2]

I thought Volksgrenadiers got panzershreks after upgrading the German HQ once.

[DatonKallandor]

Volks get a one shot 50 ammo panzerFAUST shot. Grenadier get 75 ammo upgrade panzerschrecks.


Daton

[FluffyJr2]

Mmm yes Panzerfaust, kind of doing two things at once here, but the typical german rifleman was equipped with a Panzerfaust

[Rifleman]

Also if you want to get really technical the officers primarily carried pistols/Thompson sub machine guns.

Not completely true, officers were handed what ever weapon they were most proficient with. Thats the way it went for most of the armed forces.

[FluffyJr2]

Anyway this thread got off topic quick.

Make the Volks German Rifle team and make them fire slower and do slightly less damage than the American rifle team. Yea you could say thats unbalanced but hey, the tiger beats the snot out of every American tank in the game.

Also make an american rifle team consist of 10 members and make the german rifle teams be less or equal manpower to the american rifle team

[DatonKallandor]

Who cares if it's not realistic. It makes sense gameplay wise and it looks fantastic the way it is.


Daton

[FluffyJr2]

Well obviously I care, and I'm sure there are others who agree with me, of course you cant have every miniscule detail be realistic but If your going to theme your game after such an important part of human history than you might as well be accurate. Im not saying break the game for the sake of realism. I'm saying find a middle ground between the two, and im just voicing my opinion on something I'd like to see changed

[Victrix Legio]

It's much the same with the German sniper who, if one looks very closely, is using a scoped G43 (semi-automatic), not a Kar98k, and yet he works the bolt every time he fires. His ROF doesn't concern me, as I hardly desire snipers that shoot more often, but the bolting animation looks a tad foolish and should simply be removed.

[Starfisher]

This would break the game for the sake of historical accuracy. The volks squad is supposed to be slightly weaker than the American rifles, from what I have seen, and it is. Making them fire slower or making the Americans fire faster just breaks that.

[Soldier of Dest]

For the most part, Volksgrenadiers should be armed with automatic weapons and not rifles.

Erm...nooo.

What Relic calls Volkgrenadiers don't even look like true Volksgrenadiers...in fact VG squads were only seen when the german border was crossed as they basically functioned as a "home guard", culled from civillians who normally wouldn't be accepted by the Army and given whatever weapons and uniforms they could find.

Speaking of squads...why aren't normal squads larger in size? They should be 9+1.

Yeah you're right.
They should call them Ostbattalions (they really look like'em). I'm really dissapointed of Relic that you have those Volkgrenadiers as main unit for the Germans.

I always use the Grenadiers
And I'm dissapointed of Relic again for giving them those awful uniform color!!!

So a little mod
- Changing VG names to Ostbattalions
- Changing Grenadier uniform color
would be nice, eh?

[Mirage Knight]

I recall hearing that the uniform colours were temporary (either to minimize DL time or due to the fact that the Army Painter's still being tweaked) and that team colours / unit badges would be enabled for the final release.

Victrix Legio:

They could always give the sniper a scoped Mauser 98K

[Victrix Legio]

Such was my thinking as well, Mirage, but then, the G43 is a rarely seen weapon in WWII games, the scoped version even less so, (only COD2, the old Day of Defeat, and Red Orchestra come to mind, and those are all FPSes) and I love how Relic has included it and other relatively rare weapons when they could have just gone with the same old, same old. The model's perfectly fine, it's only the animation that's the problem (well, for pedantic individuals like myself, that is); it would probably look just fine if they removed the bolting anim and simply kept the sniper looking down the scope, searching for his next kill.

[Mirage Knight]

What about allowing Panzergrenadiers to upgrade to G43's? Makes sense as that's where the majority of those carbines went anyway.

And yes, I'm a World War II history fan

[hotdrop]

I think you guys should be more concerend with balance then historical accuracy.

[Mirage Knight]

Keep in mind my suggestion is a good compromise based on the need for balance while retaining historical accuracy and realism.

[AntiCommie]

Most trained/experienced people with bolt actions can shoot pretty quick. Also, the K98 was a more accurate rifle then the M1. I dont think the damage should be changed, if anything make rookies shoot slower, and as they rank let them shoot faster.

[Akranadas]

You should also take into account that a majority of American soldier had not been in war that long, sure they had training but nothing compares to being shot at. You could always say they were nervous about killing a fellow human being.

While the German Amry had been at war since 1939 and had plenty of experience.

[Xeni]

The thing is though is that Volksgrenadiers arent very well trained at all, they arent the career and professional soldiers that the Grenadiers are.

Im not going to bitch about the rate of fire or how the Allied Rifle Team doesnt shoot fast enough when theyre using garands, because guess what, the the Allied Riflemen are still loads better than a German squad of Volksgrenadiers. If you have an open field combat between the two the Allies would probably only lose a man and the Axis would be obliterated.

I've only done well with Volks squads because people are too stupid to realize LOL GREEN SHIELD MEANS GOOD COVER and they dont understand the method of suppressing and flanking.

Pretty much its all in the guy controlling the units. So stop bitching.

[shadowcreaper]

historical accuratcy and balancing are praticaly on the same route sinse if a tiger total rubbish it is both historicaly incorrect and will unbalance game.

so theres a fine line between keeping both in good nick.

You should also take into account that a majority of American soldier had not been in war that long, sure they had training but nothing compares to being shot at. You could always say they were nervous about killing a fellow human being.

While the German Amry had been at war since 1939 and had plenty of experience.
__________________

true, but the americnas pumped out more men than the germans could kill.Same with tanks and other stuff, this is why american helped britain win war, then profited from it...

anyway would you rather see lots of grande shots being fired and only a few hitting or a few grand shot fired and those hitting mostly. Either way the game seems balanced in this area. but its only beta as we keep saying so we wil have to wait till demo for finaly historical/ balance verdict.

[Starfisher]

Well if you want historical accuracy, maybe we should remove magic cloaking, leaflets falling from the sky that cause infantry to retreat, oh, and the big one, building units. Asking that they have weapons and uniforms that jive is one thing. But asking that all game aspects be historically accurate means unbalancing the game.

Reality is unbalanced. People work very hard to make it that way, especially in wars. Making everything realistic would mean the Allies would win all the time because they had more troops, more air support, more artillery and weren't fatigued from 5 years of war. That would be a pretty boring game.

[-VT-]

Well if you want historical accuracy....

Using correct unit designations and weapon animations is unbalanced?

[DatonKallandor]

If that alters weapon balance, yes.


Daton

[Soldier of Dest]

Those volksgrenadiers are good as enemies for the campagin, but for skirmish & multiplayer I really would like to see some standart infantry for the germans.

And some realistic uniforms and bigger squads, and... :moose:

[Caesar]

Volksgrenadiers were poorly supported by tanks, aircraft etc. so they were given automatic weapons for the most part to give them some sort of advantage.

And I wholeheartedly agree, if you're going to make a historical flavored RTS, then at least get the basics right so you don't look like a total idiot.

[Epilon]

You wont neccarily break the game by reducing the K98's rate of fire, infact you could still keep the same DPS and have the current system. Simply increase their damage and reduce their rate of fire to an extent that they still have the same DPS but it looks far more historically acurate. People, the old argument in the DoW forums, about how Balance should always be over fluff cannont be always, aplied here. WWII has a much larger fan base, and most people will instantly regonize something as dubious as an K98 (bolt action) fireing nearly as fast as an M1. As Caesar mentioned, you dont want to look like an idiot. Company of Heros seems to be built around belivabilty in most of its aspects such as cover/distructable terrain and so on, you just cannot throw out the little details (I'm still curious about the leeflets and why they decided to put it in the game).

[FluffyJr2]

Allied Riflemen are still loads better than a German squad of Volksgrenadiers. If you have an open field combat between the two the Allies would probably only lose a man and the Axis would be obliterated.

It's funny that you mention that, I did a test with one of my friends and its actually the opposite result. On open terrain with no cover, no upgrades for either squad. The Volks will win with 2 men standing, the only thing that makes the allies superior is the BAR supress ability. In which the rifleman will just obliterate a volks squad becuase the Volks cant fight back, they are pinned to the ground until they are all dead.

[Xeni]

Seriously?

Wow, uh, thats stupid.

[Victrix Legio]

I keep reading how Allied infantry are superior to their Axis equivalents and how this balances out the Axis' huge armor advantage; personally, I've never found this to be true, but I just assumed that I was using them incorrectly. If you what you claim is true however, that Volks, the dregs of the Axis infantry line, can beat the numerically superior and better trained Riflemen in a straight shootout then the Allies may be in more dire straits than even I realized.

[Akranadas]

This game has a strange sense of luck.

Like having a Panzer and Tank Destroyer miss every shot they are firing at each other for about 2 minutes.

[Soldier of Dest]

I hate the rangers with all their bazookas. My tigers never have a chance against'em.
Also it looks stupid when nearly each soldier has a bazooka...

Well, when a sga extractor is out I'll start modding maaany things

[ArTizan]

I think there is an accuracy modifier and that works well, as troops will miss and things won't always work, thats how human soldiers are

[RaNdOm]

Yes. It makes for a more unpredictable, hectic and therfore more immersive battlefield experience. One of the many things I love about this game.

[Starfisher]

Using correct unit designations and weapon animations is unbalanced?

I already said that cosmetic changes are fine. However, I do find it a tad hilarious that everyone is ready to tinker with balance over the ROF of a German Volks squad in order to get closer to historical accuracy when the game has all sorts of blatant violations of reality, let alone historical accuracy.

Maybe make units unable to magically cloak? Or maybe not have people magically spawn from barracks? Or, probably the best one, make the weapon and sight ranges realistic! Sure, we'd have to zoom out to a half-mile up to get a sense for the battlefield, but with rifles firing 400m we'd have one realistic game!

I myself have complained about some of the un-authentic things in the game, like the leaflet drop that makes troops run off. But this is getting wwaaaayy to detailed, and is hilarious because you're talking about a minor, unnoticeable cosmetic change in a game full of glaringly inaccurate stuff.

[Woogie]

if everything was historically accurate no one would want to play germany.... they always loose.....

[Mirage Knight]

Putting together a mod team atm if anyone's interested. I'll be making an announcement sometime this week.

[Caesar]

Saying something is something that it's not is stupid. The in game Volksgrenadier squads are not Volksgrenadier squads. If Relic is going to make a historically based RTS and isn't going to make realistic weaponry, at the very fucking least get the units and their names and roles correct so you don't trample all over the time period.


BTW-Historically accurate doesn't mean Germany always loses. It means that everything works and looks like it damned well did.

And a mod is a good idea. I'm compiling a list of historical inaccuracies (excluding the weapon ranges and the silly things like how guns work and such).

[Mirage Knight]

Looking forward to seeing that list - got one of my own